with joe manchin in counties that obama lost by 50 points. joe manchin there after lost, still working on it. >> he was on here still working. you get the last word. thanks. beach boys. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start tonight with this. the late chicago mayor richard daley once said good government is good politics. watch new jersey governor chris christie in action, better yet watch his work for new jersey by working relations with president obama. in an era when so many elected officials have forgotten the power of positive politics. christie knows politicians are generally known for one thing. he wants it to be rebuilding new

jersey after tropical storm sandy. but wait, can a positive constructive republican like governor christie still win in the party nationally? can he convince the angry tea party types that government can work for them? can he be a boardwalk empire in 2016 that stretches down to florida and west through pennsylvania, ohio, and michigan? he's not the only voice asking for this. bob dole wonders what happened to eisenhower republicanism. and wasn't ike the president who built the country's interstate highway system? two big voices for a return to gop glory. will they be heard or drowned out by the hard right bomb throwers like the cruz missile from texas? michael steele was chairman of the republican party. he's now an msnbc political analyst. and steve mcmahon is a democratic strategist. let's hear it. the obama/christie cleanup team was back this week working the jersey shore just this afternoon. let's watch. >> it is my privilege to introduce the president of the united states of america. >> let me first of all say thank you to governor christie for that introduction and the great work he's done here. thanks to the hard work of an

awful lot of people, we've got wonderful shops and restaurants and arcades that are opening their doors. and i saw what thousands of americans saw over memorial day weekend. you are stronger than the storm. after all you've dealt with, after all you've been through, the jersey shore is back, and it is open for business. >> stronger than the storm, michael steele. those are bragging words i haven't heard before. >> that's bragging words. pretty good. >> i wouldn't want to take on the ocean, by the way. i have to tell you, christie is getting a little thin, by the way. have you noticed? that operation. good for him. he'll get healthier. >> he's looking good not just physically. he's looking good politically, i think. >> there he is with that white shirt again. i still advise against that, maybe. you know what, let's talk about this politics. obviously had an influence on the election. people who were really better at calling this election than i was. i thought the president could still lose. they thought the turning point before the election of 2012 was the behavior of these two guys. >> yeah.

a lot of people want to put that particular issue on chris christie. chris christie did what a governor of a state in trouble should do, and he did it in a way that i think showed the rest of the politicians around the country of how not only do you work with an administration you may be in opposition with on a number of other issues, but more importantly, how you galvanize people, how you bring them together. you know, the polarization that we saw in that election could have torn under any effort by the christie administration or the obama administration to actually get something done that's going to be resourceful and helpful. they overcame that. i think that's a very powerful message that the governor is going to take in his fall campaign which is why he's going to win strong. and he's going to take that message, i think, and rebrand. have an option to rebrand it with the party nationally. to talk about how leadership does make a difference, even when you disagree with your opponent. >> let's go back to the key issue of voters. when you go out to vote, most people are not idealogs. they vote for effectiveness. they may like a person, man, woman, right or left. they want to see what they can do. my question, who would you rather bet on this coming election?

chris christie this fall or michele bachmann next year? i think bachmann has just wasted -- if i were her constituent, i would say, well, i don't mind your speeches, they're harmless, but it doesn't seem like you're doing anything else but giving these speeches. christie isn't known for giving speeches. he's known for doing something. >> if you ask a poll question in new jersey and a poll question in michele bachmann's district, name one thing that chris christie or michele bachmann did, their constituents, i would bet you, in michele bachmann's case couldn't name much of anything. and in chris christie's case could probably name two or three things. they might not be things everybody agrees with, but being effective, even if sometimes folks disagree with you, is far more important in a political race and for your political future than being, you know, somebody who gets sound bites and -- >> speaking of sound bites, this is a little bit funny here. i haven't seen it yet. i can't wait. on the boardwalk arcade, which i grew up on a boardwalk arcade in ocean city, new jersey. here in point pleasant, new jersey, president obama and governor christie competed in a game called touchdown fever. you know these boardwalk games. it was pretty evident who played high school football and who

played high school basketball. let's watch. >> mr. governor, you want to give it a shot? >> oh! >> that's because he's running for office. >> you know, this is really not politics. i'm coming off memorial day weekend, and it's a little lighter, but the president is really good at certain sports like b ball. he's unbelievable. i still remember that way outside, downtown shot of his, the three-pointer. can't bowl. that's fair. if you've never bowled, you can't bowl. it's not natural. he still throws a football like a the court board. >> throws a football like a basketball. >> like a dart. he's never quarterbacked. now he's learning golf on president time. i mean, he's actually learning sports. anyway, back to christie. >> do you think it's a

coincidence, though, the game they played wasn't the hoop game at the fair but it was throw the football? >> having lost a lot of money at those games, you put it through the rim. the trouble is for the money guys sitting back there collecting money, giving away a doll a year, about two inches into the basket it gets really tight. the ball ounces out every time. former senate majority leader bob dole, he's 90 years old now, who held the post of senate majority leader, and ran the post against bill clinton, giving him a good run, dished out a bracing dose of truth today to republican lawmakers. let's listen to what the old guy has to say to the younger guys and women. >> what do you think of your party, of the republicans today? >> i think they ought to put a sign on the national committee doors that says "closed for repairs until new year's day next year." and spend that time going over ideas and positive agendas. >> you describe the gop of your generation as eisenhower

republicans. moderate republicans. could people like bob dole, even ronald reagan, could you make it in today's republican party? >> i doubt it. i doubt -- reagan couldn't have made it. certainly nixon couldn't have made it because he had ideas. >> it's amazing. i remember him when he was in great shape. he'll be 90 this july. when i worked for tip, the last night tip left office, this is how times have changed. he and bob michael, the republican leader from the house, they came over there and just sat there. sitting shiva together. they were just sitting together drinking coffee for two or three hours, just spending the time together in this kind of reverence for joint politics. when you fight with each other but a sense that you're in this together. that's gone. >> those are the kind of people that you name buildings after. there's not much in congress today that would result in a building naming ceremony. true american hero, bob dole.

>> infrastructure is a bad word. i want to get back to you. you were from maryland. i remember voting for you once for senator, sir. >> yes, sir. >> i got to tell you something, the republican party used to build things. >> yeah. >> built the interstate commerce, interstate highway system which we can't imagine living without 395, 495, 695, 95. 70, 80. >> connected the country. >> go across this country. how could you have done it? you'd be going from little speed trap to speed trap. >> well, we took smart ideas and we put them to work. and now what we do is we do a lot of talking, but we're not good at not just explaining but then going out and doing. we get this impression that we want to stop, we want to block. we're not engaging. i think bob dole is absolutely right. i said even when i was chairman of the rnc that ronald reagan would have a very difficult time. the guy we know and love, that we honored, because of his view on taxes, on some of the social issues, and certain compromises would not make it in that republican primary. which i think is the setup call

for the kind of primary that a chris christie, a jon huntsman, and others within the party are going to have to push for in order for us to have an effective -- >> my problem with obama, it continues, and i don't understand it, you know, the reason he's been in trouble the last four or five weeks because of these kerfuffles. they're bad, but they're not awful. he's been in trouble because it's very hard to play defense all the time. you've got to play offense. you've got to be for something. if he was out there pounding the door every day on congress walking around door to door in congress saying i want a jobs bill, this 7.5% unemployment is not the new norm. the norm should be 5.5%. we're going to get back down to that. we're going to work together. public and private together. i don't understand why -- democrats who aren't for jobs are not democrats. you've got to be for something. then you have to take these bad weather situations where things are screwed up in the irs. i don't think he had anything to do with it, by the way. then you live with them. if the engine is dead in the boat, you're going to drift. >> that's right. that's right. he actually started off pretty strong. he wanted an immigration bill.

he wanted debt reduction. he had 20 senators up for dinner. it looked like they were off to a good start. they've gotten completely distracted by this garbage. >> tell me why he's not for a jobs bill. a friend of mine told me you can borrow $30 trillion today at no interest. there's no interest out there. you can borrow it at no interest, rebuild this country and never pay it back except the $30 trillion. there's no interest. it's a simple thing. we have all these unemployed engineers out there and all these people. just make a list of everybody unemployed right now and think of a job for them to do. >> the ironic thing is he is for a jobs bill. >> what's the name of it? >> he's stopped pushing for it because he can't get it past the republicans. >> it's not a big one. it's not one you can put your finger on. you can't even draw me the picture of what he's going to build with that. that's the problem. now he's in trouble with the stimulus bill. >> it's a $20 billion infrastructure package. it's not what you described but it seems to have gone by the boards. >> what committee is it in? when are they going to report it out? no. >> i think this is where chris is absolutely right here. >> i don't understand what democrats want for jobs. >> i think the president and the republicans have missed this opportunity to lead. if the president isn't filling that vacuum with a jobs bill, the republicans have the opportunity to talk about the

kind of economy they want to create to put the bills in place. the same thing with the president. the president is looking for the congress to act. this is a moment to get out there and lead. here's my bill. >> by the way, michael and i aren't the only ones -- he's a republican. let me tell you something. what did all the public relations advisers that went to see him the last two visits tell him? get the truth out about the irs as fast as you can and have a jobs bill. have a jobs bill. they all said what i'm saying. >> he's got two or three things he wants to get done. jobs is one of them. he needs to get immigration reform. he wants to get a big budget deal. he's got to keep working all three simultaneously. he's got to work with republicans just like he did today. >> the immigration bill will take care of itself. >> all of that is going to fall by the wayside if the administration doesn't get in front of the scandals or the issues that are popping up now. >> we'll see. let me say it my way. jobs. thank you, both. thank you, steve mcmahon. well, some things i could be good at. you like to see -- by the way, if you'd like information about contributing to the continuing relief effort on hurricane sandy, actually tropical storm

sandy, up in new jersey, here's the website. sandynjrelieffund.org. sandynjrelieffund.org. see that? take a look at that. sandynjrelieffund.org. take a look at that one. the number is 973-521-5820. 973-521-5820. it's important to do that. the trouble up in new jersey, new york, breezy point, staten island, the rockaways is still there. it's really horrendous up there. coming up, if it's not how, it's who. hillary is running for president. it's clear as a bell, with all the dozens of people that talked to her over the weekend. they all believe she's running. it's just a question of what kind of a campaign? who's going to help her win it? plus, it turns out some of those conservative groups scrutinize bid the irs did, in fact, engage in the type of political activity not allowed for nonprofits. in other words, they deserve scrutiny not based on ideologies of their name but their behavior. my big question tonight, did the white house learn anything from now they dealt with the irs kerfuffle?

john mccain is in syria. white house officials, by the way, said they knew about mccain's mission beforehand. you put it together. finally let me finish tonight with this question. we get into a war in syria, what are we fighting for? exactly? and who? this is "hardball." the place for politics. [ larry ] you know throughout history, folks have suffered from frequent heartburn but now, thanks to treating with prilosec otc, we don't have to suffer like they used to.

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presidential race. it's not if, it's how and who. politico reports today, clinton supporters know she'll need a new team of advisers, not just old-time pals to win winning operation. she wants to hear many voices, not simply retreads. a huge help wanted sign for people who know what they're doing." said a senior democrat who worked with clinton for years. don't forget, hillary won big primary states back in 2008. ohio, florida, texas, california, and pennsylvania just to name a few. could she bring in the right team now to take her even further in 2016? glenn thrush. joan walsh is "salon's" editor at large and msnbc political analyst. first of all, i got to go to joan first on this. i want to go back to this other fellow, to glenn. let me go to glenn first. i'm sorry. did you step on your lead here? it seems like you went around saying is she going to have a new team, old team, what hybrid mix of team to win this time? she almost did last time. in fact, the lead is apparently what i hear through the buzz, every you talked to acted as if she's definitely running.

>> thanks, man. no, there is a sense. you know, we talked to 20, 25 people on this story over the past few days, and we really much to our surprise didn't get any red lights on writing this. we talked to people in her orbit and folks she's been talking to. there was no real sense of people saying to us, no, stop, don't talk about this. it's too early. i think there is a real sense, at least internally, the calculation is she's far more likely to run than not. >> yeah. the fact is, the idea of her thinking about who should run the team is not premature at all. because that's the way these campaigns run. they take two or three years. she's got to get going at some point this year picking the right folks. >> chris, the scars are so deep. i mean, you know, hillary, people kind of forget because we've had four years of her as secretary of state. you know, 2008, at least the first six months of that campaign, were really poorly managed. you know, you had all this layering over.

folks who were fired. phone throwing. wall punching. you know, and there was a real sense, particularly that the biggest fault of all was having this kind of separate star chamber with bill clinton and terry mcauliffe and all these other guys second guessing what the campaign was doing. if she is going to be serious about running, she's got to create a completely different structure. inject the thing with new blood. most importantly, empower people whose position hasn't been attained solely through loyalty. >> wow. joan, i know you like her and i'm thinking i do, too. and i'm thinking she might be saying to us if she's watching right now, well, why should i need a new team because i could probably beat anybody but obama last time? i only lost because he was the first ever african-american, he was on the war -- positioned himself well on the war in iraq and everybody else had not. >> right. >> that ain't going to happen again no matter if i've got mark penn running the race. >> i really hope she's not saying that, chris. i think glenn and maggie did a great job of reporting. my takeaway was the same as

yours. the really interesting thing is, no one is saying, don't write this story, what are you, crazy? people want to talk about it. i also saw a kind of embarrassment of riches there and potential trouble which is there are a lot of people -- you know, not everyone, but top people in the democratic party are going to want to work for her. her loyalists are going to want to come back and work for her. there are going to be obama people who hopefully are going to want to work for her. her first leadership challenge is going to be to put that together into a team. that is not easy. as glenn said, i would fault her quite a bit on leadership structure, even when she brought in maggie williams to take over the campaign. there were not clear lines of authority. there were lots of confusion. there was fighting and it was hard for anybody to be in charge. that was a knock against her. she can't do that again. i think she's really got to look at what has been reported, listen to everybody, then she's got to figure out what combination of her loyalists, you know, cheryl mills is going to be right there. then who else? how does she expand?

also, how does she think about her coalition? how is the clinton coalition going to take off from the obama coalition and include a real diversity of faces and voices and points of view? it's a fascinating, exciting challenge, but it's a challenge. >> the question, glenn, i always think about politics as tonal. the music behind it. not just the words. the music. joan is shaking her head. she knows about that. is this a time coming up three years now where you're looking for an old style tub thumping democrat who's for jobs like i talk about or who tries to get people off their feet at labor rallies, the old style politics? or is it a time for a reflective i'm a senior statesman, like eisenhower was in '52, i've been overseas, around the world, i can speak almost like a briefing with the american people? i can bring them up to date on the world we face out there because i've seen it? without the tub thumping. regardless of gender, you have to get to the question of tone. obama has been very good at the tonal. it's his best thing, in fact. what do you think about this? the message and the music? >> i think it's a great question.

i also think where the economy is going to be in 2 1/2, 3 years is crucial, right? we've had some really good numbers lately. things seem to be turning around. the question that i would have is, you know, after eight years, this country tends to want to press the reset button, to coin another hillary clinton phrase here. >> so she runs against obama. >> yeah, i mean, who is she actually -- that's the point. who does she sort of run against? i mean, the thing about barack obama that people don't really necessarily take into account, he's one of the great counterpunches of our time. he ran against hillary clinton then he ran against john mccain, and overarching it all, he ran against george w. bush. who does hillary clinton run against when she's essentially looking to do what al gore did which was to be a continuation of what happened before? >> glenn, i think she's running against this republican party and i think she's running with bob dole. you know, she's running against this modern obstructionist republican party -- >> i'm with you. >> -- that her husband faced, that her friend, barack obama, has faced, that has paralyzed this country.

listening to the previous segment, chris, you talking about the way we could be borrowing money. even if the economy is better in three years, we're still going to have people locked out. we are not the land of equal opportunity anymore. that is the music. that music will be there for her. she's got to be a tub thumper. i don't think anybody wants to be briefed on how we are. her great strength in the primary, maybe one strength, one was appealing to women. the other was appealing to working class democrats and talking about -- talking with urgency about this economy. she's going to have to do that again. >> i think you're right. i think you just opened up -- this is really the opportunity. she's now got 63% in the latest ppp poll. she's not probably going to lose the primary. it's the question of how she uses the primaries and caucuses to present herself so she can beat a right wing republican perhaps like a cruz who ought to be beaten or christie who ought to have some competition. i tell you, she's probably going to be lucky enough if she wins the nomination to face somebody like cruz or rand paul and i tell you, that's not going to be a complicated vote for most people. the suburbs will go -- >> joan made a really great point.

i mean, the last part of the primaries, you know, ohio, indiana, places like that, pennsylvania. she was wonderful. i mean, she totally let it fly and she really, really appealed to white working class voters. i think that is -- if they can just kind of, you know, if they can kind of run a campaign that's a continuation of that, she'll be very well positioned. >> well, i would run a campaign -- i would have her -- i'm not a clintonite. i can't put myself in the ring for running her campaign, but i do recommend eddie rendell. he will win in new jersey for her, he'll win in new york, win all over the northeast and probably all over the midwest. he understands what we used to call lunch bucket democrats. regular people. he's one with them. he's a big city guy. but he knows how to connect. i think she does, too, with the right team around her. thank you, glenn thrush. you've got to carry stranten, to start with. joan walsh. scranton to oshkosh. that's the road to victory. up next, did you ever think you'd see a negative ad against a 4-year-old? stick around for the sideshow. it's getting rough out there. this is "hardball." the place for politics. people join angie's list for all kinds of reasons.

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back to "hardball." now to the sideshow. first, news in the virginia gop's hard shift to the right. quick recap here. there's the state's republican nominee for lieutenant governor, e.w. jackson. he's the guy who said gay people are icky and president obama has muslim sensibilities. then there's ken cuccinelli, the nominee for governor of the republican party who's faced backlash on women's health issues among other things. he's advocated to defund all together planned parenthood. virginia's republican party treasure ir bob fitzsimmons was recently asked how he would advise cuccinelli on issues like distributing contraceptives on college campuses. here's how that went. >> i hesitate to tell you what i would advise ken in terms of contraception distribution on campus. you know, there's a lot -- that's a pretty complex issue. when you're talking about

college, you're talking about married students. you're talking about graduate students. you're talking about all kinds of different things. i'm not a big fan of contraception, frankly. i think there's some issues with, you know, we're giving morning-after pills to 12-year-olds and pretty soon i guess we'll hand them out to babies, i mean, i don't know. i think there are some real serious issues about that. >> you know, just guessing and probably republicans should stop talking about this stuff, like contraceptives. next, not many kids get the chance to play freeze dance with the first lady. it happened, actually, for a pre-k class in washington, d.c., just last week when michelle obama, the first lady, paid a visit. >> you better believe it. yeah, yeah, break it down. yeah. >> all right. try it again. ready? >> hope i don't mess up.

>> again. >> getting more complicated. let me see. >> this is great. anyway, those kids aren't even in kindergarten yet. finally, ever think you'd see an attack ad against a 4-year-old? or that a 4-year-old would have any involvement in politics whatsoever? dorset, minnesota, a town with under 30 people in its population, the mayor is chosen from names drawn out of a hat. the last drawing, 4-year-old robert tufts won the job of mayor. his term is up this august. there he is. the vh1 show "best week ever" had fun trying to figure out what an attack ad against him might look like. >> robert tufts is 4 years old. >> howdy, partner. >> 4 years old and already spending our tax dollars on pony rides. 4 years old and already on a major power trip. >> you think she likes you just for you, or does she like you because you're the mayor. >> likes me because i'm the mayor.

>> 4 years old and already dodging the tough questions. >> what's your favorite flavor? >> strawberry and chocolate. >> last time we checked, that's two flavors. robert tufts, wishy-washy. power hungry. hopelessly obsessed with pony rides. wrong for dorset. >> this ad paid for a 5-year-old who wants to be mayor, too. >> that's like most ads. for the record, that was definitely not a real ad. hear me? not. has the white house learned any lessons, scandal, over the kerfuffle over at the irs? that's ahead. you're watching "hardball." the place for politics. xa

i'm outraged by this in part because, look, i'm a public figure. if a future administration is starting to use the tax laws to favor one party over another or one political view over another, obviously we're all vulnerable.

and that's why as i've said, it doesn't matter whether you're a democrat or republican, you should be equally outraged at even the prospect that the irs might not be acting with the kind of complete neutrality that we expect. >> welcome back to "hardball." outrage. that's been the reaction from so many politicians and pundits on the irs controversy, even from the president which you saw there. the outrage, of course, includes the conservative groups at the heart of this story. those that were the subject of additional scrutiny by tax auditors. even though the irs is bungling how it identified such groups to scrutinize, it turns out a lot of those groups that were, perhaps, unfairly scrutinized deserved it according to "the new york times." the quote here, "a close examination of these groups and other reveals an array of election activities that tax experts and former irs officials said would provide a legitimate basis for flagging them for closer review." more central to the issue, of course, is this. is it of any political value to the white house, this news more

importantly, have they learned their lesson from the beginning? do stories like this one and others like it reinforce the administration's theory they did everything right? jonathan alter is an msnbc political analyst and author of the new book "the center holds." lanny davis is a crisis manager expert and author of "crisis tales" that's just come out. one, it turns out "the new york times" has done the homework on this. a lot of the groups which were flagged by the irs because of names, perhaps, patriot groups, using those names or tea party groups using those names, flagged because of their identity turned out to be guilty as charged when it comes to their actual behavior. they were crossing the lines into political activities when they were supposed to be social welfare groups. they weren't supposed to be doing. my way of reacting to that, yeah, line up everybody who looks arab-american, put them in a line at the airport, you might catch somebody bad down the line. that would be wrong.

you don't flag people based on identity but basis of behavior. that's the fair way to do it whether it's police work or tax work. let's move on here. my question to you, jonathan alter. by the way, good luck on the big book that's coming out. i've been reading it. it's fabulous. >> thanks, chris. >> let's go on here. this white house, the thing that scares me, they think they did this right. they think the lawyer did it right at the white house. dennis mcdonough did it right. the trouble with that is, if they think this was a success, they ain't going to change for the next four years. they're going to be what they were and they walked right into this. that's my view. what's yours? >> i just don't think they reacted right in terms of their own political self-interest. when this came to the attention of the white house, there was a delay. they should have gotten all the information out quickly. by the way, even now all the information is not out. it turns out from "the new york times" and other sources there were liberal groups also investigated by the irs. legitimately investigated for misrepresenting the purpose of their organization. if it had been put in proper context at the beginning, and it had been the white house that was bringing the information out rather than having it leak, i

think they would have been better off. >> well, i'm not sure of the facts yet because i still believe -- are you sure you're right about this, that mostly they were the tea party and patriot groups? >> it was mostly. i'll tell you why, chris. it's because after the tea party became a big -- a big deal in the united states, there were hundreds if not thousands of tea party organizations. it was a decentralized movement. >> yeah. >> but if you put "party" in your name or something that sounds political, it's reasonable to expect that the irs will interpret it as a liberal organization. >> john, if you're right, the ig was wrong. that's not the ig's report. the ig's report was there's bias here. they targeted improperly the right wing groups. >> i'm not saying they were targeted properly. i don't like the way they handled this. it needs to be put in its context. quickly, chris, in 2010, crossroad gps, karl rove's organization, made a filing, an official filing to the irs where they said that their activities did -- quote, did not constitute

prime -- their organization did not constitute primarily a political effort. that was materially false. they then spent $70 million trying to affect the outcome of the 2012 election. so when people make false representations to the irs, which many of these tea party and other groups -- >> you're making a case, but that's not the point. >> they need to be investigated. >> the point is, jonathan, the problem is, the ig came out with a roort. the white house saw it coming. the president could have gotten ahead of it and pointed the finger at the irs and said this is wrong. >> exactly. >> if this report is right, the irs is wrong. what did he do? i don't know what he did. they didn't tell him. >> there was some theory they wanted the president of the united states to have plausible deniability.

first of all, that's not good for a president to not know something that the chief of staff and the counsel knows. secondly, plausible deniability is not exactly good pr if that's what you're trying to achieve. >> is that lawyer talk? is that what lawyers do? they always want to reduce exposure. >> this is a great lawyer. i have nothing against miss ruemmler as to her legal skills. but when you're in a silo, as jonathan just pointed out, one single fact that shows it wasn't just right wing groups being targeted, just pointing that single fact out would have put the story in some context. their failure to do that on the talking points -- >> that sounds like defense to me, lenny. we disagree. that sounds like playing defense. you don't win in this business playing defense. you go offense. >> look at the talking points story on benghazi. i'm told the white house council's office objected to publishing those 12 versions. 'en though if they had initially done that, every version had the cia writing the words spon tan sli inspired by the cairo demonstrations. >> let me tell you, let me go back to john on this because this is pure politics. it's not history, not policy about taxes. my belief is the public hates rolling disclosure. they hate it. >> right. >> they know when things dribble out, it's because the big shots

in washington, democrat or republican, liberal or conservative, are holding back information at their convenience. and their staffers sitting around in the middle of the night having pizza having plans about what to release. they know what's going on. look at this. here's a pro. bob schieffer, veteran newsman at cbs this weekend. let's talk about what he said about the communication strategy at the white house. >> if their chosen spokesman turns out to have no direct connection to the story of the moment, as was the case when you and ambassador susan rice was sent out to explain the benghazi episode, then that's what we and you, the taxpayer, get. and it usually isn't much. so i am glad the president has asked the attorney general to review whether his investigations into leaks is having a chilling effect on journalists. but it shouldn't stop there. the president needs to rethink his entire communications policy, top to bottom. it is hurting his credibility and short-changing the public. >> what i hate about politics is

cleverness. it's like guys who play tennis. just a minute. they don't swing away at the tennis racquet. they do these little dribbles. flee flickers. this administration has too many of those flee flickers. why don't they come out on the irs on all these stories and blow it out there? if the president is innocent, act it. why not? >> mike mccarthy who taught me everything i know about this business -- >> he's a brilliant guy. >> if you try to be too cute, everyone is going to know you're being too cute. >> why did he put susan rice out there when she wasn't involved? >> absolutely. otherwise it becomes torture. drip, drip, drip. that never does any administration any good. the truth is, even if you tried to get ahead of it, the way ed mees, for instance, went into the press room and revealed the iran contra connection, it still doesn't get you out of the woods. so it's not like if they -- >> i've studied that. i'm studying it, john. let me tell you something about that story. the president, reagan at the

time, lost 20 points of his public credibility, of his job approval because of one issue. trading with the enemy. >> right. >> when it came to the issue of diverting the funds to the contras, it didn't cost him a point. people already knew that's where he stood. he broke his campaign promise. not to deal with the enemy. the reason he was elected is because of the hostage takers over in the middle east. he was then caught trading them guns, trying to get hostages out which is exactly what -- that only cost him -- mees didn't cost him a point. he was right to get it out. >> even if he handled that perfectly because of what you just said, they would have taken a beating on iran contra. on some level the hapdling of it is marginal. >> you can't make a bad story worse. if it's bad, it's bad. you can't make it worse. >> you're wrong, john. if it had gotten out, if they'd been caught shifting that money to the contras, they would have been dead in the water. it probably would have been impeachable. thank you, jonathan alter. good luck with the book. lenny davis, good to have you on. >> thank you. >> i don't think you're a blow hard. in fact, you're not. some other people are. up next, john mccain's secret trip to syria. this is going to be interesting. there he is. secretly over there. but we know about it. is he trying to get us into another war?

he does seem to support all wars. this is "hardball." the place for politics.

americans don't want military action in syria on our part. john mccain, of course, does. we'll find out what's up, next.

welcome back to "hardball." john mccain spent memorial day weekend inside syria meeting with rebel leaders there. the republican senator snuck into the country from turkey. white house today said it knew about mccain's plans ahead of time. mccain, of course, is one of the leading advocates for wider u.s. involvement militarily in the syrian civil war. he's calling the administration to arm the rebels and set up a no-fly zone. both options, of course, present major risks which is why the white house has taken a cautious approach. mccain's trip could increase the pressure on the president. i don't know how, but i guess so. before crossing the border mccain warned that the united states needed to step up its involvement, of course he did, in syria. >> deport the good people and separate them from the bad people. that's the answer to the problem. and right now bashar al assad is winning. that's because the united states is not leading or assisting.

>> so what was the point of mccain's surprise trip? and what should the united states do about syria and how do we want it to end up? richard engel is chief foreign correspondent for nbc news. robin wright is a distinguished scholar at the u.s. institute of peace. richard, thank you for joining us. i know we have a bit of a time delay. but tell me, what is mccain wanting to do? and what has he accomplished over the weekend? >> what i think he wants to do is he wants to put pressure on the white house. and he wants to give moral support to the rebels themselves. there was a danger he's creating some false expectation. the rebels simply loved his visit. they were very happy. this is exactly what they want from washington. they want to see senior u.s. officials putting themselves at risk and this was a risky trip. the area that he went to, although in some degree under rebel control is still dangerous. there have been suicide attacks there. there have been air strikes. and the rebels saw this as the kind of thing we want from washington. we want leaders in washington

who fully embrace our cause and will crossover and will be with us and want a no-fly zone. the problem is, he's not the president and he doesn't have the ability to deliver on all of this. i think what he was trying to do was show people in the u.s. administration that there are reasonable rebel leaders. and he went in specifically with the general, the overall commander of the free syrian army. and you often hear in washington there's no responsible actors in syria, there's no one that the u.s. can trust. we don't know who we could arm. and mccain was trying to say here's the guy, this is the guy the u.s. should support. >> so these rebels, these new heroes of ours, robin, what do you -- i wish we'd interview them what they want. my hunch is what they want is to march into damascus, kill every one of the assad family. basically repress the community that's been running the country. is that our goal? and why are we on a team like that? because at the end it's the shia

against the sunni. the rebels are getting killed because they're rebels. is there any peaceful solution that doesn't involve chasing qadhafi down into a storm suer or this hanging of saddam hussein. why are we part of that? why do we want to be part of that? they want to butcher their leaders, we can't stop them, why are we joining in it? >> one of the problems for the obama administration and all of its allies has been who do you actually deal with, john mccain went in with one rebel leader, one general, but the problem is the rebels actually reflect many different trends inside the country, the exiles outside the country who provided most of the political leadership also have an array of different ideas. they can't even get together on

forming a shadow government that's in opposition to president assad. they can't get together on the peace process. so one of the great problems for the united states is trying to figure out who actually is viable on the ground. and then figuring out what they want because they haven't provided -- >> richard engel, do we have any heroes over there? anybody we would trust who would actually negotiate in the end when it comes to the end game a year or so. actually somehow would put together a reasonable transition of power? >> reporter: i think he is the person that the u.s. officials are most confident in right now. but the problem is as robin just mentioned, there are shadow governments for the -- for the syrian opposition. there are leaders who are meeting in istanbul talking about potentially going to geneva. they can't even come up with the list of the delegates they would send to the peace conference. there are other opposition

figures who are in cairo, some living over a year in hotels in istanbul. there's a variety of people. you asked why did the u.s. maybe need to get involved in this in some way? and i think the answer or an answer is not doing much right now isn't leading to a good scenario on the ground. that you have the war in syria spilling out and that doesn't lead to good things for the united states down the road. that iraq is heading back into that terrible sectarian conflict despite so many years of u.s. effort. the bloodshed in syria is almost becoming another afghanistan situation where you have a complete no man's land. and that doesn't lead to good things for the united states or for anybody. war is spreading back here into lebanon. there were some rocket attacks a couple of days ago. hezbollah is now mobilizing, talking openly about getting into the war. so you have conflict out of syria now involving three

different countries. and if the u.s. as the world's superpower doesn't address it, it's -- it won't lead to -- we know where this is going. so something needs to give. >> well, that's your view, not mine. thank you, richard engel in beirut, and thank you robin wright. any weight, but i feel skinnier, you know? not really. aaah! jessica! whoa! your friend's a rate sucker. her bad driving makes car insurance more expensive for the rest of us. try snapshot from progressive. snap it in and get a discount based on your good driving. [pop!] stop paying for rate suckers! try snapshot free at progressive.com.

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let me finish tonight with this. let me suggest a way to go about this syria debate. before we start arming the rebels who we don't know in a war in which we don't have any way to predict an outcome. a war between shia and sunni. is it the position of the united states that the rebels should win the war, kill the assad family and then wage an era of revenge? like the shia did after we liberated, that was the word, right, iraq? is that what the united states wants? is it? why don't we push for some sort of transition in that country of syria, some sort of cease-fire.

we take the side of the side that agrees to let revenge go, let peace emerge, or we don't. we stay out. sound naive? well, the only way i could justify getting into a war is if i thought one side offered a threat, the united states. any other policy options should be that we are not, once again, as we've been for more than a decade, out there on international television killing islamic people. that's all we seem to do these days and the islamic people of the world, including those here in this country are watching. and that's "hardball" for now, thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes, and thank you for joining us, and welcome back. all right. tonight, how john mccain spent his holiday weekend, not like mine, hint, his involves sneaking into a war zone and ratcheting up the syrian conflict. plus, he's loud, he's rude, the mayor of a major metropolitan city and he's embroiled in the craziest political scam in north america.