like, this is work. >> with me right now is former rnc chairman and msnbc analyst michael steele and executive editor of msnbc.com richard wolf. good to have you here. michael, i want to the start with you. it should be noted that the order presented in "the guardian" says it does not include substantive content of any communication or the financial information or address of the subscriber. basically, the government is not listening in on these calls. they're just getting the content, the phone records. does that make it okay? >> no, it doesn't. i don't care if they're listening in or not. the government is collecting private data on american citize citizens. what they're doing with that data, you don't know, i don't know. you don't know who's on the list. this is something that goes back into the bush administration, which got vilified for such activities under that library clause in the patriot act. i think it's section 412. now here we have the obama administration not only taking that provision but enhancing

upon it and very quietly, but for "the guardian" report, nobody would know about it. what's going on, full disclosure, why do you need this information, who's on the list, what kind of data are you collecting. this on the heels of the irs scandal really puts this administration in a new context on the debate on national security. >> all right. so "the washington post," richard, is saying this all started to take place after a top-secret court order was issued in april. a senior administration official telling nbc news that information described in this report is a critical tool in protecting the nation from terror threats. this was going on, as we just talked about, under the bush administration. does the obama administration seem to be upping the ante on what was already established under the bush administration? >> i'm kind of scratching my head at the outrage on this one. it's always great reporting when you see something secret come out. what was outrageous under the bush administration, what really

troubled people was that it was warrantless. they were doing this without going to court. that was the key principle here. now, there is this special court set up. there is a judge -- this has all come through a judge's review. this review is secret. the whole court is secret. it's highly classified. frankly, these courts actually never reject an application. when the president was running as a candidate about five years ago, he actually shifted his position. he said as long as i get court supervision, this is the policy i will take up. he said that as a candidate before he got elected the first time, clearly that was going to be his policy in this administration. you can disagree with it. you can say it's all wrong and this is an intrusion of privacy, but he has been explicit about it. >> all right. newt gingrich has taken a different angle to the situation. i want to play for everyone what he had to say. take a look. >> i'm for whatever it takes, as long as it's restricted to the national security agency and doesn't get involved in looking for criminal behavior or other

kind of things. the problem we have is between the total failure of attorney general holder and his team and the irs scandal and all the other things we're watching, why would anyone trust the government to keep its word? >> michael, are we watching republicans trying to have it both ways here? is this going to become some sort of fake outrage or talking point, seeing as how this was all started under president bush? and it's something the republicans pushed for. >> no, i agree with that. i think it's definitely a dan r danger. to richard's point, there's got to be a concern about not overextending the outrage. the questions i asked are legitimate questions. what are you doing with this information? is it strictly for national security purposes? are there criminal elements you're wrapping in under your request to that court to get the warrant in the first place? so, yeah, there's a very

interesting line here, thomas, in that there is this national security push, but when you start, you know, glomming on these other aspects of privacy and criminality, et cetera, are you, you know, broadly reaching here, using national security as the hook, or are there some legitimate national security/criminal concerns? i don't know. i think that's what this report is trying to dig into. >> richard, as we look back over the president and when he was a senator, what he had to say about the patriot act, this was in december of '05. if someone wants to know why their own government has decided to go on a fishing expedition through every personal record or private document, through library books they've read and phone calls they've made, this legislation gives people no rights to appeal to the court of law. no jury will hear their case. this is just plain wrong. that's senator obama. president obama has a completely different take. >> once he got the nomination, he shifted his take and said, as

long as a judge oversees this, it's okay. i love the way this is being used politically. you hear the irs come into this. it's all one big thing for conservatives. this was in the aftermath of a terrorist attack where people were trying to figure out, was there a cell, are they supported by other people? there were phone calls made, and conservatives have been saying since 9/11, don't be legalistic about it. don't have this pre-9/11 mindset, which is all about the lawyers' complaints. you just got to do what you got to do for the national security. it's rich for them to come back own and try to say, we're the aclu, we're all for civil libertie liberties. >> one thing i want to get on the record with here is the chairwoman of the senate intelligence committee, diane feinstein, is saying that the secret court order for telephone records of million of u.s. customers for verizon is saying that this is something that they needed to do for the national security agency. other lawmakers have said the practice is legal under the patriot act. she spoke to reporters on

thursday taking up for the obama administration, basically defending the need to collect this data. all this is going on on the heels of the irs stuff. now i want to turn to the subject of drones. nbc chief foreign correspondent richard engel reported last night that nbc news examined classified documents identifying 114 drone strikes in pakistan in 2010 and 2011. they include details such as alleged terrorist affiliations. those documents also reveal what u.s. officials don't know. for instance, exactly how many were killed. u.s. officials seem certain that the strikes almost never kill civilians. in those 114 strikes, only one acknowledged a civilian casualty. several former senior officials have told nbc news they had concerns about some of the strikes, that they're killing people based on circumstantial evidence. richard engel spoke with a former drone sensor operator who was in the air force whose missions involved is mostly iraq and afghanistan and got a very

unique and exclusive perspective. take a look. >> they were probably carrying rifles, but i wasn't convinced they were bad guys. >> you got the order to shoot on these three men? >> yes. we strike all three of them. when the smoke clears, there's a crater there. i watched this guy bleed out. i can almost see the agony on this guy's face. it's really more intimate for us because we see everything. >> do you think that he was a combatant? >> i have my serious doubts now, but i didn't really question those voices in my head. >> serious doubts now, didn't question voices in his head then. richard, do we need to take a serious re-examination of the drone program and how we're utilizing the effectiveness of it? >> what you have is a precision strike program that's not as precise about the intelligence. the intelligence is questionable. can we really identify these people on the ground from that kind of height? are you taking civilians? they don't know. the intelligence isn't as good as the targeting.

that's where these two things don't match up. it's very vivid because you have the footage of these attacks. honestly n terms of the distance involved, if it's a strike from sea, would that make it any different? we were launching cruise missile strikes in the '90s on targets in afghanistan. morally, i don't know there's a lot of different. the intelligence question is very real, and we need to look at that. >> when we talk about the foundational use of drones and if there isn't confirmation, as you're saying the distance is too great and the specifics are unknown, doesn't that in and of itself mean that the program is being overused? >> it means that the intelligence that underlies it is -- it needs to be under much greater scrutiny. the problem is this backlash. you're killing civilians. you're radicalizing local populations that you need on your side. so this is where the policy is really falling if apart. if the intelligence isn't any good, the system, the policy backfires. >> so -- and that's a great point. this continues the cycle, the issue, the cycle of violence.

michael, is this another case similar to the nsa story, where we start to examine what trumps national security, where do we put that, and what is the benchmark necessary to feel as a country that we're doing the right thing? >> absolutely, thomas. i think that richard just hit the key discussion point when it comes to drones, when it comes to even the conversation we just had about verizon and the lists that were gathered by the government. intelligence, intelligence, intelligence. over the last 40 years or so, our on-the-ground intelligence has been virtually emasculated. our ability to really have face and boots on the ground does make a difference for us in terms of how we use the tools, particularly in this technological warfare of drones and the like that are going to be important going forward. so the intelligence aspect here is critical. it permeates throughout whether you're talking about drones or whether you're talking about the gathering of information, private information on u.s. citizens. >> and how -- and i want to ask

this of both of you. richard, i'll start with you. just because we know it's happening with verizon, what makes at&t safe? what makes sprint safe? >> they're probably not. you're looking for -- it's a needle in a hay stack, right? they know people behind the boston bombing had cell phones. it is a fishing expedition. you know, we don't know in those few days after the attacks, were they supported by other people? who were they in contact with? those are still open questions. i mean, the fbi went to question someone, and they ended up shooting him. this is a live investigation. a lot of public pressure on them. you've got to assume that everyone gets scooped up in a fishing expedition. >> at what point is any of this legitimized? if we get hard facts that lead us somewhere and people can say, okay, this was right? >> that's the rub right there, thomas. when is it legitimate to gather this private information on citizens and collect, extort, and use it? that is going to be a conundrum for lawyers and policymakers

going forward because technology is driving this right now. our ability to gather so much information on individuals and store it on something as big as a microchip really changes the way we do this. that moral point, that ethical question is going to be permeating throughout this discussion going forward. our policymakers need to get serious about how they're going to answer it. >> gentlemen, great conversation. thank you so much. former rnc chair michael steele. msnbc.com's richard wolf. appreciate you both joining me. to be clear, you're not stepping down now? >> no, i have no intention of doing so now. >> the embattled attorney general eric holder digging in, he's not going anywhere. coming up next, pete williams joins me to talk about his exclusive sit-down interview, plus reaction from capitol hill. and nbc's kelly o'donnell as holder goes on the hot seat again today. and we are following developing news out of florida. george zimmerman back in court before the judge and whether a key piece of testimony will be allowed at that trial. we're going to break it down for

you. and our question of the day to you is on the nsa's collection of phone records. should security trump privacy? weigh in on facebook. find me on twitte twitter @thomasaroberts. an givef a kick in the rear! v8 v-fusion plus energy. natural energy from green tea plus fruits and veggies. need a little kick? ooh! could've had a v8. in the juice aisle. to support strong bones. and the brand most recommended by... my doctor.

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mother nature's cool like that. citibank mobile check deposit. easier banking. standard at citibank. right now attorney general eric holder just sat down at a senate committee hearing about the justice department's budget. the real questions on lawmakers' mind have to do with the controversies that holder has been fending off over the secret investigation of journalists. holder sat down exclusively with our justice correspondent pete williams, where he admitted things have, quote, gotten out of whack, but removed any doubt about whether he'll be sticking around. >> there's some things that i want to do, some things i want to get done that i've discussed with the president. once i have finished that, i'll sit down with him and we'll

determine when it's time to make a transition to a new attorney general. >> but to be clear, you're not stepping down now? >> no, i have no intention of doing so now. >> joining me right now, nbc news justice correspondent pete williams and capitol hill correspondent kelly o'donnell. pete, i want to start with you. we know your interview happened before the new controversy broke over nsa collecting american phone records, but will this only add to the holder problems, the troubles it he's been facing? >> well, i guess the question is will the government do an investigation of this leak? it's too soon to tell. my own guess is they probably will, just given the sensitivity of this document. it's highly classified, top secret, special intelligence, can't be shared with foreign governments. but the process is that the intelligence agencies asked the justice department to investigate this and the justice

department makes a decision about whether to do that. that's -- we're a long time from how that process goes along. what he's saying about the previously investigations is that he believes some changes can be made and that his meetings with the news media executives have persuaded him that, number one, more than is done now, news media should be given the ability to contest a request for documents in court. the way it worked in both the ap and fox news cases, which have been most controversial, is the government told them after they got the records. they want the ability to contest it in court first. in the fox news case, it was very controversial. when the government applied for a search warrant, they described the fox news correspondent as a potential coconspirator. holder says that language is required by the law, that allows you do get a search warrant for those e-mail records. he says he's not comfortable with that.

it puts the government in a bad position, and he thinks that should be changed. he emphasizes that he's never asked that a reporter be prosecuted, that the government's focus is always on government officials who illegally leak classified information. >> pete, you've had years of experience covering eric holder. to you, what did he seem like? did he seem at all pressured by the heat and certainly from the glare? not just from republicans but from the american people, learning about the operations of the doj. >> no, i wouldn't say that. i would say that he's someone who believes that, as he put it, the balance between protecting national security and protecting first amendment freedoms is a little out of whack here, is the term he used. some changes in the government's rules and laws would help to restore that balance. but no, he did not seem like somebody under a lot of pressure. he did say he gets a lot of criticism, that some of it's helpful. he thinks about it, and where it's valuable, he makes changes.

he says he believes a lot of it is merely politically motivated. >> from these investigations, has anything valuable been revealed that would, you know -- because everyone is looking to try to figure out, what was the legitimate reason, what was the way that they were able to clamp down on the leak, or is this a bigger issue of trying to intimidate potential whistle blowers and intimidate the media? >> he says that the decision to be -- the obama administration's decision, or the as a result of the obama administration officials being the most aggressive in investigating leaks is not the result of some policy decision. he says the justice department gets lots of requests to do these leak investigations from intelligence agencies. actually does very few, but these, he says, were the results of demands from intelligence agencies and congress urging to be more aggressive on cracking down on leaks. >> now to kelly.

darre gop leaders are telling issa to tone down the rhetoric after he called jay carney a paid liar. i want to you to listen to this. >> the administration is -- their paid liar, their spokesperson, picture behind, he's still making up things about what happens in calling this local rogue. it's because this is a problem that was coordinated in all likelihood right out of washington headquarters, and we're getting to proving it. >> kelly, what are you hearing? are republicans afraid that issa might jeopardize the biggest gift handed to them in months? basically, okay, you've said enough. congressman issa, pat on the back, now calm it down. >> well, there's definitely a sense that there are real issues here that would have genuine traction that don't need some of the extra political icing that's been put on it. so there is some concern that issa may have, with some of his comments especially in interviews like that, pushed it too far. i think today he's been more measured. in fact, talking about the irs conventions, conferences,

spending, that sort of thing, being careful to say there's value in having employee conferences and meetings. there's real training that can go on. in that particular area that they're exploring where there's an easy way to say the irs has been lavish and excessive and spent too much, he was a bit more cautious in saying is there is also value in having these meetings where irs employees get information, where training videos are made. you know, we've talked about the "star trek" video, the "gilligan's island" video. those were made for a conference. he said there are legitimate uses for training purposes. so there seemed to be a bit more tempered darrell issa in today's hearing. those comments about jay carney have had a lot of democrats and republicans shaking their heads. >> all right. kelly o'donnell, pete williams, thank you so much. still ahead, a survivor rescued from the rubble. what more investigators know about the story that was

breaking news this time yesterday. a building collapsing in philadelphia, killing six and hurt ing 14 others. george zimmerman back in court, fighting to keep key evidence out of his trial. we're going to break down what happened inside the courtroom. and a harvey fire storm. the author behind "kinky boots" will join me here in studio. stick around. 14 clubs. that's what they tell us a legal golf bag can hold.

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accident. 14 others injured. a federal judge has temporarily cleared the way for a 10-year-old girl who needs a lung transplant to move to the adult waiting list. she's dying of cystic fie bro sis. the judge ordered health and human services secretary to make an exception in this case. bowing to outrage. the tsa has dropped its plan to allow small knives on planes. the idea to drop the ban generated criticism and protests. ♪ ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] for dad's first job as dad. nissan tests hundreds of child seats to give you a better fit and a safer trip. snug kids, only from nissan. ♪

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analysis of the 911 tapes from the night of the shooting. >> i think they're yelling help, but i don't know. just send someone quick. >> does he look hurt to you? >> i can't see him. i don't want to go out there. i don't know what's going on. >> just seconds after that exchange, you can hear a gunshot. the experts for both the defense and the prosecution will testify whether they think the voice heard calling help is george zimmerman or trayvon martin. george zimmerman has pleaded not guilty to the shooting death of trayvon martin. he himself claiming de self-defense. before we begin, we should note that george zimmerman has sued nbc universal for defamation. the company has strongly denied his allegations. we want to start with the martin family. they have issued -- the martin's family attorney, that is, just released a statement concerning the 911 tapes. he says, it is ridiculous for

the zimmerman defense team to argue that expert voice analysts should not be permitted to testify at the trial when george zimmerman himself stated the voice crying for help on the 911 recording doesn't even sound like me. the martin family attorney says the expert voice analysis is necessary. faith, i'll start with you. what do you make of the timing of such a statement? >> i think it's questionable. here what the defense is doing, they're having a fry hearing today on this issue. that means they're not questioning the conclusion that the state's expert is making. they're questioning the method that he used in order to make this analysis and make the conclusion. so they're saying the method isn't a tried and true, tested scientific method. however, i think the state will prevail on this. the expert is very established in the community. he's testified in a number of trials. he has a lot of experience with this. so the at end of the day, i think the state will get this expert and his testimony in, but the defense will be able to put on their own rebuttal expert to contradict or try to go against this expert. >> mark o'mara is the attorney for zimmerman.

he began that hearing today talking about keeping potential witnesses protected from the media and the public. he asked some of the witnesses not be photographed it or even allow them to testify behind a screen. the judge denied this motion. why? >> the judge made the right call here because any time you have witnesses who come into court, they're giving testimonial evidence. that is evidence. the jurors have a right to see -- not only hear what they're saying but to look at them. jurors are making a credibility determination just like you and i do on an every day basis. we want to look and see and look at the demeanor of a person and examine their credibility based on not only what they're saying but how they're saying it. are they nervous? are they fidgeting? are they telling the truth? it's important for these jurors to be able to see these witnesses. >> so jury selection begins on monday. the judge has ruled that the jury members will be referred to by a number, not a name and they will not be sequestered. how much of a concern is the public limelight for a case like this? >> it does have the national attention.

obviously, sanford is bracing itself for this inundation of media. what the defense tried to argue is you should take all potential 500 members of the jury pool and sequester then. the judge said that's not going to happen. the media didn't object to calling the jurors by number, not name. is there some fame seeking in being on the jury? are there motivations for people wanting to be on the jury? also, getting spotlight from people following them home. i think the judge has split the difference on that. the media didn't object. >> so faith, the zimmerman defense team is also asking the court to bar spectators in the court from wearing picture of the trayvon martin or messages of support for martin. how unusual is that, especially when we take into account the first amendment? >> i think it is unusual. they're making a lot of unusual requests in this case because of the amount of public interest, i think, in this case. they're making that request because they don't want jurors to see members of the audience

and be swayed by seeing pictures of trayvon martin because there's always the sympathy factor. he was 17 years old at the end of the day. so that's what they're concerned about, but you cannot disallow people from coming into court and expressing themselves. there are certain things, there's courtroom protocol that's always going to come into play. in terms of pictures and buttons, that's going to be allowed. >> what's your anticipation, expectation of how the beginning of this trial will start? and i want to say this delicately, but how it's always going to play out. there's so much emotion packed into this. >> there's a lot of emotion. you remember, there were two cities feeling emotion about this. obviously, sanford and the community there, but also miami. there's a lot of anticipation for the trial there. there are some people, including the pastor for the martin family, who plan to travel for certain parts of the trial. i actually think jury selection is the critical phase in this trial. you have to seat a jury. it's almost impossible that no one would have heard of a lot of this evidence. mr. mark o'mara has put out a lot of evidence that could theoretically be damaging to the

reputation of trayvon martin. people have put a lot into this trial. there are a lot in the african-american community who see this as a civil rights case, as a case about profiling of young black men. there are a lot of people on the zimmerman side who feel the sympathy toward trayvon martin, as you were just discussing, has prejudiced the ability for zimmerman to get a fair trial. there's a lot of emotion wrapped up in this. it's national, international. it is a really important trial. >> great to see you. safe travels. thanks so much. well, this morning, paris jackson, the daughter of the late pop icon michael jackson, remains in the hospital. nbc news has confirmed the lapd responded to a call at jackson's home of a possible overdose yesterday. media outlets are reporting an apparent suicide attempt led to the 15-year-old being hospitalized. through her attorney, her grandmother katherine jackson released a statement saying, quote, being a sensitive 15-year-old is difficult no matter who you are. it is especially difficult when you lose the person close toast you. joining me now is christopher

witherspoon. it's good to have you here. this is -- certainly we want to be delicate about this. this is a 15-year-old child thrust into the media spotlight because of who she was a child of. the fact that paris jackson isn't your average teen to begin with, here's paris talking at the televised memorial for her dad. this was nearly four years ago, when she was only 11. >> i just wanted to say ever since i was born, daddy has been the best father you could ever imagine. and i just wanted to say i love him so much. >> so christopher, that was tough to watch. that was, for a lot of people, the first time they've really ever seen her face. for so long, michael jackson kept his children's faces shielded from any attention. but we've seen her kind of blossom into a young woman.

she has her own youtube channel. she tweets a lot. there have been a lot of ups and downs. what specifically are people saying got her to potentially this point where she would be so upset that something might take her to this point? >> there's reports saying that paris jackson has been battling depression. she's been hospitalized in the past for her depression. i think that, you know, she's a 15-year-old girl. i mean, we all know 15-year-old girls are always on an emotional roller coaster. i think that she did an interview last year with oprah that i watched last night. she was being very candid about being bullied in school. i mean, that happens to 15-year-old girls. when you're paris jackson, when your father is an icon, when there's the good, the bad, and the ugly out there about your dad, i think the cyber bullying becomes magnified by 100%. i think being paris jackson, it's hard to be paris jackson. there's a story up right now talking about how, you know, why

the jackson family seems to just be unraveling. it seems like there's no support system in place for paris. she has an 83-year-old grandmother who's her guardian, who some say is kind of asleep at the wheel. i think that needs to be addressed moving forward as well. >> i mentioned her twitter account. some of the tweets, the recent ones, tuesday night quoting a beatles song saying, yesterday all my troubles seemed so far away, now it looks as though they're here to stay. another tweet saying, i wonder why tears a salty. does this mainly have to do with the fact she's being thrust into having to be deposed for the wrongful death suit that's going on between the jackson family and aeg? >> that's a big side of the story. her grandmother is in court battling aeg about this wrongful death suit. paris jackson and her brother are going to be, you know, in the court soon talking and testifying. that's a lot of pressure for a young girl. i think that, you know, paris jackson, all eyes are on her. people are going to be wondering what's going to be her next move. when she leaves the hospital, there's going to be paparazzi

following her. she's going to need a strong support system in place. >> we wish her and her family nothing but the best. everybody remembers what it's like to be 15 years old. it's a tough time. thegri.com's christopher witherspoon. thank you. is the so-called republican war on women back and back with a vengeance? coming up next, se cupp, host of msnbc's "the cycle. " still ahead, the man behind the big broadway hit "kinky boots" will join me here in studio. can't wait for that. and our question of the day for you has to do with our lead story, the nsa's collection of phone records. should security trump privacy? weigh in on facebook, find me on twitter @thomasaroberts. lobste. we've never cooked anything like this before. [ male announcer ] introducing red lobster's seaside mix & match. combine any 2 of 7 exciting choices on one plate for just $12.99! like new cheddar bay shrimp & lobster pot pie, and new parmesan crunch shrimp. plus salad and unlimited cheddar bay biscuits. combine any 2 for just $12.99.

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according to a first of its kind study, feelings of dizyness and faint account for 37% of in-flight medical emergencies, making it the most common. but relax. most cases can be solved with simple anti-nausea pills stocked on most flights. it appears not everyone in the republican party learned their lesson from former congressman todd akins controversial comments about rape. even he said he'd take those comments back if he had to do it all over again, given his defeat in november. but from the looks of last week, republicans still have work to do when it comes to women's issues. >> how did america get so mediocre? >> i think parents became -- both parents started working, and a mom is in the workplace. it's not a bad thing. i'm going to get in trouble. i can just see -- i can see the e-mails tomorrow. >> gee whiz, the hormone level

created by nature sets in place the possibility for these types of things to occur. >> all right. joining me right now is msnbc co-host of "the cycle" se cupp. you took a deep breath. comments like this have a lot of people shaking their heads. you compound that with military sexual assaults, where we saw some republicans taking the side of the all-male panel. they came against a group of bipartisan women senators. why are we still hearing these comments from our electives? >> on the military issue, there are plenty of congresswomen who have to keep the chain of command as is. let's separate those. there are, apparently, still republican men who have not learned the lessons of todd akin and richard murdoch. that's to not say paleolithic

things about which they know nothing. still to what you know. there are great end roads to reach women for the gop. women are concerned about taxes. women are concerned about government inefficiency. you don't have to go to these issues to try and get women. it's a mistake. it's a mistake we keep making. the good news is we usually see republicans swarm around these comments and contort ourselves to try and find ways to defend them. you're seeing less and less of that. that's good news. >> all right. so i want to talk about the fact that republicans are hitting back against the appointment of susan rice with rand paul saying he can't imagine promoting rice. congressman issa had this to say on cnn. >> susan rice claims she reads the classified dailies. obviously, if she read the classified dailies, she couldn't have been so wrong on benghazi. it's unfortunate the president is rewarding someone for reading talking points that simply weren't true.

>> so that was issa in the halls of congress. is there a chance some republicans could be going down the wrong road, especially when we consider samantha power, who they will have an opportunity to the vet through hearings, that by proxy, they're going to go after rice through samantha power? >> look, there were questions to ask of susan rice. they were asked. they were important questions. i think it's also important to point out that it's not just republicans in the house that had questions for susan rice. day dana millbank questioned her qualifications for secretary of state at the time. they were important questions for her. i think we've litigated that. she's going to be the new nsa. there's not really much we can do about it. so i like john mccain's tact of, i don't like this appointment, but i'm going to do everything i can to work with her on these issues. >> i know you don't speak for all republican women -- >> i try not to. >> did you get tired of trying to defend the indefensible when it comes to comments like that?

>> i don't defend the indefensible. that's what's tiring, watching people to try to contort themselves into ways to defend statements that are indefensible. you can disagree with the party, calm people out, and still agree with them on a whole host of issues and still work together as a party and a movement to advance conservative causes. but we have to stop defending the indefensible and call a spade a spade. these were stupid things to say. >> se cupp, great to see you. be sure to catch "the cycle" 3:00 p.m. weekdays here on msnbc. we're back with harvey fierstein after this. [ male announcer ] here's a word you should keep in mind. unbiased.

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is wenl. broadway is gearing up for the biggest night of the year, the tony awards coming up this sunday. leading the pack with an emmick 13 nominations "kinky boots." the film turned musical is inspired by a true story of a young man in england whose family's shoe business is going under and a drag queen saves the

day. it confronts stereotypes faced by people in the glbt community and joining me now is the one and only, harvey firestein. he is the brains behind "kinky boots." harvey is also a four-time tony award-winning actor and a gay rights activist and you are up for awards this weekend, my friend. it's very exciting. >> yes, it's exciting. >> does it feel good to you, a vindication, because the success that "kinky boots" is having is not just critical, it's commercial success. >> you can't have the kind of success that the show is having without the audience. the audience is really driving the show. it's like the word of mouth is just unbelievable. people walk out of that theater flying. well you've seen it twice. >> i've seen it twice now. >> and you walk out of the theater on a cloud. i hear people walking out of the theater going, okay, now let's get tickets for my mom. we can go back for my birthday. people want to go back in and have the experience over and over. >> it's really good.

and this is all happening, kind of an interesting time because new york city has seen a recent rash of attacks, gay bashings that have happened in new york city, you wrote a powerful op-ed in the "huffington post" about intolerance called, "don't end the war on terror." we invite fear to explode into violence. intolerance is not a matter of opinion, it's a call to violence. do you think that this rash of crimes, the hate crimes is because we've seen such powerful advances in lgbt equality? >> i think the bad stuff has never gone away. usually the people who are performing the violence against us obviously mental and emotional problems, sometimes they're acting out against themselves, but it gets pushed outside. but when you have politician who is feel it's okay to stand up and talk against us, when you have people standing behind pulpits thinks it's all right to speak out against, could you imagine? could you just imagine if i was

on a schoolboard and i came in and i said, you know, i don't want any jews or christians, teaching my kids. because well they believe in people living inside whales and they believe in slavery and they believe in stoney women who have, who have had an affair. so i just don't want any of those christians or jews. could you imagine? but they feel absolutely free to say that about gay people. feel free to stand up and say okay, i'm not against homosexuals, it's the act. it's not the act. it's bigotry it's hatred, it's prejudice, it's wrong and we need to knock it out. >> you know so you have been certainly making a difference in the lgbt community for decades now. and certainly you've been making your mark known in your professional career. and this marks a big milestone for you. because 20 years ago you started one of my favorite films, "mrs. doubtfire." 30 years ago you won your first two tony awards for "torch song trilogy." and there was a movie made as

well. i mean so this is a really good time for you, harvey. do you feel like you're living at your prime right now? >> i just have a great time with my life. i did say that to robin williams, i said you've done, had this whole life as a writer, actor and all this stuff. and i'm going to be remembered for putting makeup on you. >> it's so good, look, see? look at you. 20 years ago, harvey. >> for turning him into barbra streisand. the thing, we had the best time shooting this because chris clom b columbus just let us loose and of kous, robin is the most unbelievable person to work with that way. >> what do you expect this weekend. the tonys are this weekend, you're going to win, right? you're going to win? >> broadway is a small community of people, we all love each other, we're not -- i don't want to be -- >> you're going to win, hold on a second, we've got something

for you, because -- today is harvey's birthday as well. if you can see this -- >> look at that if we can get a shot of this good-looking cake. happy birthday, harvey. >> i love it it's got lavender. >> the union won't let me make you candles, so i've got an apple on my phone. >> so make a wish -- >> up, up. >> make a wish. >> okay. >> blow it! >> excellent! >> he did it! happy birthday to harvey. >> thank you, sir. thank you so much. >> come see "kinky boots" for your third, fourth and fifth time. >> i'm going to bring everybody. >> i'm going to bring alex wagner because she's very interested. she's sitting right over there. >> and i know you love alex. >> it's like i'm having lunch with her. >> we'll be having cake shortly. >> i usually sit there ajd have my tuna fish sandwiches while you tell me about the world. >> happy birthday and he's going to win this weekend.

>> that's we just need to add in a tuna fish sandwich with all three of us and it's a trifecta. >> alex, what's coming up? >> lots of stuff, lots of stuff, thomas, we're going to be talking about the nsa's surveillance and barack obama's changing position on that. and the surveillance hooks are out. and we're going to get reaction to the news from our panel and shayna katidal from the center for constitutional rights. and education secretary arne duncan talks education and working moms and senator jeff merckly joins us to discuss the endangered middle class in another three minutes. ♪ [ male announcer ] moving object detection. ♪ blind spot warning. ♪ lane departure warning.

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already under intense pressure for its aggressive prosecution of leakers and targeting of journalists, the white house is again on defense, after a report in the uk's "guardian" newspaper revealed the country's national security agency has been secretly collecting the phone records of tens of millions of americans. the government was able to do is so using a top-secret court order issued last month that gave the nsa access to verizon phone records. according to the "guardian," it is not known whether verizon is the only cell phone provider to be targeted with such an order. although previous reporting has suggested the nsa has collected cell records from all major mobile networks. civil liberties groups have responded to the news with outrage. the aclu called the program beyond orwellian. while the center for technology said it was an abuse of the patriot act on a massive scale. responding