already under intense pressure for its aggressive prosecution of leakers and targeting of journalists, the white house is again on defense, after a report in the uk's "guardian" newspaper revealed the country's national security agency has been secretly collecting the phone records of tens of millions of americans. the government was able to do is so using a top-secret court order issued last month that gave the nsa access to verizon phone records. according to the "guardian," it is not known whether verizon is the only cell phone provider to be targeted with such an order. although previous reporting has suggested the nsa has collected cell records from all major mobile networks. civil liberties groups have responded to the news with outrage. the aclu called the program beyond orwellian. while the center for technology said it was an abuse of the patriot act on a massive scale. responding today, a senior white

house official noted that the does not allow the government to listen in on anyone's telephone calls, instead it allows for monitoring of meta data, such as the telephone number or the link of a call. all three branches of government are involved in the review process and intelligence collection. for a white house battling controversy over its policies to combat 21st century terrorism threats, the action in the wake of news will fuel debate over what is in our national security interests, and what constitutes a step too far. for attorney general eric holder, the road ahead looks rocky. another law enforcement official tells nbc news that this disclosure will undoubtedly trigger another leak investigation. joining me today, new york city deputy mayor, how old wolfson, senior managing attorney at the center for constitution 58 rights, shayna kotadal, editorial director at the "huffington post" and msnbc political analyst, howard fineman and cnbc washington

correspondent, john harwood. thanks for joining me, everyone. shayna, i want to go to you first. when we talk about this, is this similar to what was going on under the bush administration? is this an expansion? >> in 2006 "u.s.a. today" reported that there had been a similarly broad event to get phone records from a number of carriers, including verizon, at&t, bell south. but everyone assumed because the story folted on the story of the nsa warrantless wire-tapping program that they were doing it outside of any court oversight. so i think what we've learned today with the release of the document, we get to see the order and appreciate its tremendously broad scope. two we get to see that they've used patriot act section 215, no the to just go after people's library records or other things like that but to get literally tens of millions of phone records from everyone. not just journalists, about maybe lawyers and everyone hoo is a subscriber. >> who is your reaction to the aclu, who calls this beyond orwellian?

>> i think it's accurate. when congress voted to renew this section of the patriot act in 2011, it was premised on two things. one that some court would review this, because the fisa court has to go over these orders and two, that congress would get a report at the end of the year of the number of total orders issued. here you have one order that lets them get tens of millions of records, it will be desecretarively low that reporting to congress. it's pretty hollow oversite. and the fisa court is not very much reviewed. basically the judges are hand-picked by chief justice roberts and rehnquist before him. the government can go to any unof the 11 judges, they went to a 73-year-old appointee in north florida, known for being one of the harshest sentencers. >> howard, i want to get your thoughts on this. we have talked a lot about this the balance between civil liberties and national security. this will spark a lot of debate as the deputy mayor of new york city, you're familiar with

threats, you're familiar with the measures we need to take to combat the threats. i wonder what your assessment of today's news is. >> i think the american people may well support the patriot act. they want to be protected. they want to know that the executive branch is protecting them. i think that the average person, it's not just the aclu, the average person would see this as remarkably, enormously, tremendously shockingly overbroad. the idea that the government is actually, has access to every single phone call that every american makes, i think people waking up this morning reading that probably absolutely incredulous. so, yes, i mean do americans want to be protected from terrorists? yes. do they envision that what the prosecute act does is allow government to identify people who are actual terrorists or suspected terrorists based on you know real research or intuition? yes. do they think that their own phone calls are being logged in in some government entity or agency? no, they don't. i think this is going to be, this is far beyond the libertarian wings of both

parties. this is going to be a mainstream, main street kitchen table set of concerns for most americans. i think congress will likely have to revisit this portion of the patriot act. they do not want this to be what the patriot act is. >> john, what's interesting to me is now the white house has pushed back saying this isn't as bad as it may seasonal to be. we don't have access to the subject of the calls, it's effectively looking at the numbers that were dialed. there may be some geodata as far as where the calls were made from. there are some people in congress saying it's not that big of a deal. you have two different schools of thought on this. >> yes and it is clear by the way from some of the reactions of members of congress that this he have been briefed on this. now, i do think it's important to note that very few things that both parties agree on in this country. but the fact that the collection of this data occurred under the bush administration, in the belief that it assisted national security. it was criticized on how they went about it. as we've just discussed, without warrants. now you have the obama

administration saying we still want to collect that data, too. only we're going to go through the fisa court process. suggests that at least on national security grounds, they think this is useful. it's also the case that i talked to one former national security official, we've seen notes from our colleague, pete williams today about how this works. you know they collect vast numbers of phone calls at the meta data level. then they have to go through an additional step, if they want to check out a particular number based on other intelligence. so i think i disagree with howard, i don't think the average american as i've learned a little bit more about this, i don't think the average american is going to be as outraged as howard does. but i do think it's worth keeping in mind that a republican democratic administration both thought this was very valuable to do. >> howard what are the political implications of this? the white house has been playing defense on the subject of surveillance for almost two months now. eric holder was asked this morning at a hearing about this. he would not make a comment. the fact is, our own pete williams was saying, that

higher-ups in the doj think there is going to have to be an investigation into this leak. the leak to the "guardian," who first reported the story. >> well two things. first in the larger sense, president obama and as president bush and ever other president before him takes an oath to protect and defend the constitution of the united states. and i think people expected barack obama as a constitutional lawyer and as somebody who is going to try to correct the mistakes of the bush years, to be especially sensitive on these issues. and instead, we see story after story about the growth of the surveillance state. maybe it was going to happen regardless. but i think in the broad sense, people wanted barack obama to be a little more aware of this than he seems to be. and his attorney general for sure. now, in the narrow sense, it was attorney general holder or the head of his office of legal counsel at the justice department, who ruled in a secret finding that we still don't know, that the foreign

intelligence advisory, court hear, it's a foreign, the fisa, the "f" stands for foreign. and talking to privacy advocates in washington this morning, they, they're raising the i think legitimate question how does a court that's supposed to look at foreign intelligence and foreign communication, at least on one end, approve this incredibly sweeping dragnet for domestic-only telephone calls? that's going to be one of their questions. now ron widen knows -- the problem that ron widen has politically and some democrats have politically on the intelligence committee is that they've been briefed on this. >> and they voted on it. >> briefed on it, voted on it. so they're prevented from talking about it. so its going to be other people who are going to do it i think all roads lead to eric holder if you're talking about politics, this puts more pressure on eric holder. because even though it's the nsa that carried out the surveillance, it's the department of justice that

provided the legal justification for it. >> and i would also say at the end of last year, we renewed a warrantless wiretapping with broad support. there were 23 i think nos for the fisa amendments act, reauthorization act of 2012. the president signed it into law amid much heated debate over the bush tax cuts, nobody was paying attention to this. >> let me read what two senators said after the renewal of this provision, when the american people find out who how their government has secretly interpreted the patriot act, they're going to be stunned and angry. all the polling data we've seen on civil liberty issues when it's a targeted program that seems to be aimed at terrorists, like the nsa program, the american public is relatively okay with it. if they think it's broad-brushed and think it might sweep in they are outraged. think about john poindexter's awareness program, it was ended

up defunded. >> we're sort of heading in that direction, anyway. >> you say the word verizon phone records and it's very -- that means something very practically in the american imagination. >> think at the justice department apparently talking about how this is just phone records, when you called and how long the calls lasted and not the contents. that's a hollow distinction. just ask those a.p. reporters, right. if the government knows a reporter made five calls to a bunch of people in the house and some staffers and that kind of thing and published a story that included some embarrassing government secrets, it's not going to take too much for the government to add up what happened in those phone calls. >> eric holder did say the department's goal in investigating leak cases is to target government officials, not target mexs of the press. but before we go, i want to get your thoughts on the obama presidency. it is certainly a very difficult time to be the commander-in-chief, the 21st century terrorist threats are unlike any this country has seen and the legal framework for

prosecuting them is very much, it's in the process of developing it. the president i think gave voice to the moral questions and the moral issues he wrestles with in his speech at the national defense university. how did you grade that? and how would you grade his performance thus far? >> on both counts, it's been status quo since the bush administration on every question, except the question of torture this is the logical thing. the american public, all the polling data shows that the american public regard the period since 9/11 as a success because there hasn't been a similar attack on the homeland. so the administration knowing it can't really stop terrorism. it's like a lightning strike. if they change anything they're going to be blamed if lightning happens to strike. >> the center for constitutional rights, shayana kadidal, thank you. it's funny how details make a difference, such is the case with immigration. the latest nbc news/"wall street journal" poll finds a slim 52% majority supports a pathway to citizenship.

but when respondents were told that the proposed pathway includes requirements to pay fines, back taxes and pass a background check, the number jumps to 6 5%, including 58% of republicans. the poll also says that americans are divided over whether congress should pass comprehensive immigration reform by the end of the current term. and apparently, so is congress. we'll discuss, next on "now." when we made our commitment to the gulf, bp had two big goals:

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the proposed immigration bill is set to hit the senate floor next week. but its chances of success

appear to be very much in limbo. emerging from a meeting with reluctant house republicans yesterday, the gop's point man was besieged by reporters asking if he had any support at all among his own party. >> i can tell you that the bill is currently structured isn't going to pass in the house and i think it's going to struggle to pass in the senate. one of the reasons i was asked to join the effort was to help bring republicans on board, that's what i'm trying to do. it's simple, if people want immigration reform we're going to have to improve the border security elements of the bill and we're going to have to make people confident that what we're doing is enough. >> rubio's downbeat assessment came amid signs of trouble in the house. one lower member gang of eight congressman labrador dropped out of the talks, saying house language wasn't tough enough on blocking health benefits for newly legalized immigrants. never mind that they would be paying for said benefits, labrador's resistance to allowing people access to programs they pay for, comes

amid a study that shows immigrants subsidize rather than drain coffers. weaken medicare's financial health while an increasing flow of immigrants might bolster its sustainability and yet the message from republicans emerging from yesterday's meeting, not in our house. >> i think it's very clear that the house -- will not take the senate bill. there's an effort on the part of those senators to improve the senate bill as it moves to the floor. it has a long way to go from the house perspective. >> i don't think there's any chance that comprehensive immigration would pass this summer. i don't think republicans are going to support anything that is milquetoast in the way of border security. >> rubio is facing opposition from four senate colleagues, locking to block reform efforts. where it is worth noting, net migration from mexico to the u.s. is at 0%. alabama senator jeff sessions summed it up.

>> legislation that will actually work never gets adopted. legislation that looks like it might work but doesn't is easy to pass. the legislation in the senate weakens substantially the definition of a secure border and has no real teeth. >> and if the official congressional infighting wasn't enough. the party is receiving some unhelpful advice from the ghost of election past. "the wall street journal" reports that mitt romney is planning to rejoin the national dialogue. he of self-deportation fame told the paper, that the gop needs to translate our message in a way that minorities understand. full stop. joining the panel is former dnc communications director and soon-to-be msnbc host, karen finney. do we have a name for the show? >> disrupt." >> disruptive msnbc host. >> are you sure you a want her on the set right now? >> god knows what may happen. >> speaking of disruption,

karen -- >> yes. >> i get it, some part of this is political kabuki theater. everybody is unhappy about it and somehow they can get the sort of negativity vibes out there and that gives them some smokescreen to actually pass a bill. but the latest round of nay-saying makes me actually worried. >> the thing about it is it's more evidence of these chickens coming home to roost. the republican party so moved themselves to the right with very harsh rhetoric that now these tea party house members who got elected on that rhetoric are saying we don't care if you pass a bill or not. in my district, this is what i have to do. i don't care if, it's going to hurt your senate race or your chances at the presidency. i got mine. and i think that's part of what people like rubio in terms of fractions in the party are like, you know, how do we deal with this. >> i also, if you look at the resistance, john, the idea that the border isn't secure. i mean the senate bill has a

13-year path to citizenship. $4.5 billion is packed into that bill to beef up surveillance and enforcement. more drones on the border, 3500 extra customs and border protection officers. this is an under an administration that's deported 1.5 million immigrants. a record number of deportations, net migration from mexico to the u.s. is 0%. what more can you ask for in. >> the house says 13 year is not enough, they want a 15-year path in their negotiation. >> and 1,000 drones. >> i do think that there is a -- an element of kabuki here is very large. when i talk to democrats, they are very positive about the way rubio has handled this in a way that can preserve some of his credibility in his ability to bring republicans along. this idea of an amendment on the floor to strengthen the border security stuff, allegedly by giving more, less, less unilateral flexibility by dhs to

figure out how to spend this money. that was prearranged. democrats knew ha was coming, that's not a surprise. they're okay with that that's part of the process of moving along. i still think this is an instance where the interests of the republican party nationally marco rubio as a presidential candidate and democrats because of their own goals, are in line here in a way that means this cannot be stopped despite some of that stuff. it may, the senate bill will not pass as it currently exists. in the senate or in the house. but-day think the odds very high that we get something comprehensive that does have a path to citizenship. >> howard, ezra klein actually argues the counter in terms of who benefits here. he says democrats have comforted himself with the believe that immigration reform is a political necessity for the republican party. but the republicans who will lose if immigration reform fails are future republicans. the ones who will lose in primaries if a moderate immigration bill passes are current republicans. >> i think that's right. john laid out the optimistic case for getting the bill through.

>> this is the optimistic wing of the show. and my boss, mayor bloomberg is working hard on this issue along with other business leaders to get this done. we're in the business of being optimi optimistic. if you were to give the pessimistic view, a lot of it has to do with the president's standing. six months ago, we were not in the midst of scandal fever in washington. you are seeing republicans who might have been willing to work with the president on this issue a month ago, two months ago, now being tugged even more as karen points out to the right in their own possible primary situations, because their own constituents, their bass are even more angry if that was possible at the president than they were three or four months ago because of the scandal. because of irs and these other issues. so that makes it more difficult. the president has less good capital to spend on this issue than he did two two or three or four months ago. >> and there's the electoral reality of 2014. mitch mcconnell has an election to win. lindsay graham, too. and the other piece of this,

howard is john boehner is incredibly weak right now. as chris cillizza writes, does john boehner want to be speaker of the house in january 2015? if he does, it's hard to imagine him working in any meaningful way in the senate, especially for the white house. >> the powerful caucus, powerful lobbying arm. if the president is weaker politically, which he is. that would mean that the republican establishment such as it is, has to be doing stronger to carry mario rubio's marco rubio's project forward here. >> it's a town full of weaklings. >> you have this situation where marco rubio, a relatively young man, a new guy who took on this big task is trying to manage this whole thing as john was saying. but he's doing it almost without wires or support. >> kabuki theater without support. >> he doesn't have strong power

centers to call on to try to put it together. if he can get it done, more power to him. >> he has ted cruz nipping at his heels. >> i'm cooler, i'm cooler. >> i'm the latin tea party guy. >> that's a very interesting something. >> ted cruz is not on board. >> no, he's not. this is, this really shows you the fractions within the republican party. because you have totally misaligned interests. national republicans, some of whom recognize just by the numbers you're not going to win a presidential election without some portion of black or latino voters period. that's the new reality in america. they know they've got to make some of that up. this kind of talk and this kind of failure is not going to help them. on the other hand, you've got republicans who say this message is working for me, i don't know about you, i'm going to keep at it. >> the differences between the tea party wing and the business or establishment wing. the business community and the republican party is very much in favor of this bill. they very much want this to happen.

>> karl rove -- >> because it's realistic. >> the symbol of the cross pressures is somebody like mitch mcconnell who is up for re-election in kentucky. where rand paul as a tea party candidate surprised him a couple of years ago. where mitch mcconnell has wired rand paul's campaign manager. >> ron paul's campaign. >> ron paul and rand paul. >> accolades for everything. >> which way does mcconnell go in the end? does he go with the business establishment or the tea party? >> notable, rand paul has given mitch mcconnell a little cover on immigration. he has opened the door to possibly supporting -- >> you're not hearing rand paul. of the tea party people you're hearing ted cruz, mike lee, others like that. but you're not hearing rand paul. and the reason is exactly that. rand paul wants to run for president in 2016. so he's muting it on -- >> i think the difference between the 2014 strategy and the 2016 strategy is pretty pronounced. i am of the mind that even if immigration reform passes it is

not like hispanics and blacks are going to dplok to the republican party. this is part of a longer-term proposition. >> it removes -- >> policy platform. >> remember, alex, the 2014 electorate is not the 2012 electorate, that's a given. however, given the pace of demographic change in the country, the mid ferm electorate is not the same as the mid-term electorate was four years ago or eight years ago. there's the possibility of some pressure being brought to bear on republicans running next year. because of the growth of blacks and hispanics as part of the electorate. >> i will say the axis of howard and optimism and pessimism has given us a 36 0-degree understanding of the issue. >> coming up during his last or latest state of the union, president obama introduced a plan for universal pre-k. something republicans referred to as another entitlement program and an example of government overreach. i'll ask education secretary arne duncan about welfare

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mississippi republican governor phil bryant thinks he's pinpointed the cause of the country's educational woes. working moms. >> how did america get so mediocre? >> you want me to tell the truth? can i tell the truth? you know, i think parents became both parents started working. and a mom in the workplace, it's not a bad thing. i'm going to get in trouble i can just see, i can see the emails tomorrow. but now both parents are working, they're pursuing their careers. it's a great american story now that women are certainly in the workplace. >> so it's the mother's place to teach them to read? >> no, but i think there was a loving, nurturing opportunity that both parents had a little bit of time. >> we will discuss governor

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today, when our store does well, i earn quarterly bonuses. when people look at me, i hope they see someone working their way up. vo: opportunity, that's the real walmart. the school year may be winding down, but the national dialogue about education is still very much in session. this afternoon, as part of his nationwide middle class jobs and opportunity tour, president obama is flying to north carolina, where he will visit mooresville middle school to th introduce a new education initiative to connect 99% of america's students to the internet within five years through high-speed broadband and wireless. today the average school has slower connectivity than the average home. but it serves 200 times as many users. fewer than 20% of educators say their school's internet connection meets their teaching needs. the new white house initiative

known as connect ed aims to change this. the school district where the president will make remarks this afternoon began its push towards increased digital access in 2007. since then, graduation rates have risen from 80% in 2008, to 91% in 2011 and test scores have improved significantly. the connect ed initiative does not require congressional action but it comes at a time when congress is in a heated debate over efrl educational concerns, from preschool and no child left behind to student loans, joining me from the white house is secretary of education, arne duncan. secretary duncan, thanks so much for joining us. >> thanks so much for the opportunity. >> education is always a hot topic and we love to have you on the show to talk about all the things you guys are working on. this initiative in particular strikes ming as is we should have been working on ten years ago. it's good to know the president is making this a priority. but with anything these days, it seems like there's a lot of

partisan back and forth. and i think the first area of concern or this first question i have for you, regarding connect ed is who's going to pay for it? we know that congress does not have to approve it. but how are you going to cover the costs of this? >> this is just a huge opportunity for our nation's students and for our nation's teachers. we want to empower students to be engaged in their own learning 24/7, have access to online tutoring. access to foreign languages, they simply don't have those opportunities today and it's not fair. we also want to give teachers the opportunity to share best practices, to help each other. to personalize the instructions this is a win for students, a win for teachers and ultimately, obviously a win for education, for our country. the fcc has been a great, great partner. they've funded a program called e-rate for the last 16, 17 years, it's helped to create access for schools and libraries across the country. but they haven't updated that program in a long time.

i think there's some efficiencies we can take from the program and if we have a small increase in fees to fund this. this is a good initiative for kids around the country. >> a lot of basic investments still remain subjects of heated debate. whether or not there's a heated debate over connect ed. there's another heated debate over one of the president's signature education pieces, which is universal pre-k. paul ryan has called it another entitlement program. john boehner said getting the government involved in early childhood education is a good way to screw it up. education at one point was not a particularly heated partisan area of discussion. in the recent years and under this president, you found a congress that will fight him on seemingly everything. >> yeah well education should be absolutely nonpartisan, not ideological. i work with everybody, republicans, democrats, house, senate.

have a great relationships with governors across the country. the fact that investing in early high-quality childhood educations is one of the best investments we can make. we have to make sure our children are entering school ready to be successful. not a year to a year and a half behind. there's been long-term economic analysis, that shows a 7-1 return on investment. for every dollar we invest in high-quality earl will i childhood education, we as a country get back $7, less teenaged pregnancy, less high school dropout. less crime, more people graduating, becoming productive citizens, entering into the mainstream of the middle class. this is a great investment to make. 250d acrossed country, less than three in ten young people have access to high quality early childhood education, pre-k. to invest together many politicians think short-term, this is the ultimate long-term investment. but it is absolutely the right thing to do. as i travel the country in virtually every community i go

to, there's significant waiting lists, families are looking for these kinds of opportunities and don't have them. that simply doesn't make sense. >> you know, i mean that argument is intensely logical and forward-thinking. but i'm sure you understand this better than most. the topic of education remains incredibly emotional for some people. and very deeply personal. and i wonder what you thought of governor phil bryant's comments the other day that america's educational troubles began when women started working outside the home. that to me was not only not forward-thinking, almost backward-looking in terms of what we need to do in and around american education. it isn't sending women back home, it's making long-term investments in our children's educational futures. and that perhaps begins with something like oh, early childhood education. >> those kinds of things are just distractions. my mother worked outside the home the entire time we were growing up and my sister and brother and i think we turned out okay. let's not be caught in that. how at every level, whether it's

early childhood education, access to technology, making sure that college is accessible and affordable. we talk about a cradle-to-career agenda. we need to invest at every level. i want to keep good jobs in this country. we want to make sure that companies that are looking for a highly skilled workforce will stay here in the united states. if we don't do that, if we don't invest together in a bipartisan way in education, those jobs will go to other countries that are taking education much more seriously. so this is about education, but it's much bigger than education. we're fighting for our country, we're fighting to keep great jobs here. >>s it the story of america's future. and secretary duncan, i will, as we close out here, i mean i think when we talk about investments in the future, as we're having that conversation, you look at what the sequester is doing to our education system in the now. and i think it is devastating that 70,000 children who would have been served by head start will not have access to the program by the end of the year because of budget cuts, more

than $400 million in sequester cuts are going to shutter access to critical early childhood services. should the president be campaigning more on that issue and make americans more aware of what's happening to american chilled right now because of the sequester? >> the sequester is devastating. there's no upside. it's not only problems going to happen in the future, he had a number of head start programs around the country have to close early this year. because they ran out of funds. we have military families who are heavily reliant on our federal money, whose children will have less quality education. as owe those children and their families so much. it makes no sense, sequester is the height of adults did function and intrangintrans yen. the president fights for this every single day. there's nothing about politics or ideology here, we're fighting

for our children, we're fighting for our families and ultimately we're fighting for our country. we should be able to come together behind that. we say never invest in the status quo, we're always trying to drive a vision of reform, high quality childhood education, reducing high school grop-out rates, increasing graduation rates. making sure young people have access to college. do we want a more educated country or a less educated country? that's the fundamental question that i think is before the american people today. >> secretary arne duncan. that is a patriotic message about america, thank you so much for your time today. >> thanks for the opportunity. coming up, darrell issa and company put irs officials under the capitol hill heat lamp once again. we will discuss the latest round of hearings just ahead. [ male announcer ] citi is over 200 years old.

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my nickname as well as the irs official responsible for hosting a lavish convention if anaheim where employees line danced as "star trek" characters apologized to congress this morning. >> the videos at the time they were made were an attempt to -- in a well-intentioned way, use humor, the star trek video to open the conference. the dance video was used to close the conference. the fact of the matter is, is

it's embarrassing. i apologize. >> john, if nothing, this irs scandal has brought us "star trek" videos and a man named fairs fink and a woman named lois lerner. >> i think you can take for 100% certainty that he was telling the truth when he said, it's embarrassing. >> that so far has maybe been almost the most painful part of this. we have news last night that two irs staffers are saying they got marching orders from washington in terms of targeting tea party groups, something that folks in conservative circles are making hay of. >> i'm sure they are. two things, one, it's embarrassing when you get caught. there's a long list of -- >> howard, there's so much -- >> men and their indiscretions would tell you that. >> it remains in the vault. >> i'll never tell. what's interesting, there was a story last week about you know, connections back to washington

and it turned out that's actually part of the irs procedure. if you have a question, there's a person in washington, in the washington office, that you send it to. so until we know what the "it" real lyre is. which is not the province of the right wing. >> can i speak up for their fellow beleaguered government bureaucrats? >> please. >> if the worst of the irs scandal is that there was a "star trek" video that was made or some people dancing, that is not a major problem. that is not rise to watergate level issue. so if the republicans want to look at -- >> is it nixonian? >> i don't think nixon ever did this. >> richard nixon could not dance. >> haldeman, ehrlichman. >> if the irs was targeting republican groups or conservative groups unfairly, that's a very, very serious issue. congress ought to be looking at that. the idea that they're spending a lot of time and money, looking at whether people were line

dancing, yeah, it's embarrassing. nobody looks good line dancing or dressed like leonard nimoy. >> other than spock. >> other than leonard nimoy. but that is not a scandal. and that i don't think is going to get the republicans to, to really push this administration where they want to go. >> but the problem is the irs was also saying they needed more money and resources to do their job. so it's like hey, how about not the star trek video and use that money? >> one successful piece of testimony that danny werfel gave to the house appropriations committee earlier in the week. where he said we don't need more money. >> that was a point at which danny werfel could not ask for more money. >> howard, we have news in politico reporting that rand paul has managed to in his way, tie the nsa actions, the verizon phone records, to the irs and a.p. scandals and has introduced as he's wont to do, the bill of rights, the bill of rights was

designed to protect us from evil. particularly that which always correlates with concentrated government power and particularly executive power. rand paul is frothing at the mouth with these new revelations. >> well, this verizon story is, is like to use maybe a bad analogy -- >> please use it. >> crack cocaine in the pipe, in the aqua buddha pipe. because rand -- >> that is going to become a meme on the internet, for that, i thank you. >> you're very welcome. i cover rand paul, i know rand paul. he's from kentucky, which i used to be, where i used to be a reporter. rand paul is the pure libertarian. he's trying to run now as a combined libertarian republican conservative. he wants to be president. i think he's going to run in 2016. and the tea party message is, this is a big intrusive oppressive liberty-robbing

administration. and country and government and we need to do something about it. and they're going to tie not only the irs and the nsa in the a.p. and james rosen but the affordable health care act in it, which has the irs as an important part of administratoring it. and they're going to whip it up into a huge anti-government crusade like they tried in 2010. whether it will work again, the next time around, i don't know. but that's certainly who rand paul is and what he stands for. >> can we just remember that rand paul also said he was okay using drones on people who robbed liquor stores? >> i mean -- >> that one little caveat. >> and he's also as we said earlier. he's moderating his positions on immigration, for example. so he's trying to do both things. he's trying to become more mainstream republican. this is such powerful stuff for him and for his people. >> although you, with the civil libertarians like rand paul. i think this is manna for them. for some folks, i think there's

a real question now as to whether they've overreached. darrell issa, calling jay carney a paid liar i don't think is helping the republican party at large. >> that is the question. is this just sort of stoking the base, in which case the line dancing and the "star trek" stuff is fine. or is this actually going to reach real people with real concerns about what the government is doing? the average american, whether republican or democrat wouldn't like the idea, if it was true, that the administration was unfairly targeting some groups based on their ideology. and then irs, but we don't know whether that's true. >> and i'd like to -- >> what is it if this was the methodology they use to sort it out, right. to try to separate out the work to say being, these things, we need to look at these, because we know there's a consistency in terms of the level of political activity in the applications that are coming with these names on it. that's the other problem of this, right. from the beginning, unfortunately, democrats and the white house have accepted the narrative that it's targeting. >> let's let howard get in one

more. >> i have to add, having sort of made fun of rand paul. i think to a large extent he's right. let me repeat that. to a large extent he's right. >> that's another internet meme. >> no, wait, because there are legitimate concerns as we've let technology outrun the constitution. >> there's a huge debate that has to be had. >> over surveillance and civil liberties and national security. >> civil liberties and security we haven't had the full-bore debate since the patriot act. >> i want to go back to the point that the phil bryant, the governor of mississippi made, talking about women going into the workforce and the effect of education. you it elme what to what is happened to income growth and test scores since women began hosting cable tv shows? i don't think it's a pretty picture. >> skyrocketed. put that in your aqua buddha and

smoke it. that's the end of our show. thank you to our panel, howard, karen, howard and harwood. don't miss a debut of karen's show "disrupt" with karen finney, this saturday at 4:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. we will all be watching. i'll see you back at noon when i'm joined by sam stein, steve car knacki, joy reid and dr. zeke emanuel. "andrea mitchell reports" is next. yes! one phillips' colon health probiotic cap each day helps defend against these digestive issues... with three strains of good bacteria. [ phillips' lady ] live the regular life. phillips'. it's delicious. so now we've turned her toffee into a business. my goal was to take an idea and make it happen. i'm janet long and i formed my toffee company through legalzoom. i never really thought i would make money doing what i love. [ robert ] we created legalzoom to help people start their business and launch their dreams.

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right now on "andrea mitchell reports" -- hold the phone. why is the government collecting telephone records of millions of americans? a new issue for eric holder today. >> i'd be more than glad to come back in, in an appropriate setting to discuss the issues that you have raised, in this open forum -- >> i would, i would interrupt you and say the correct answer would be say no, we stayed within our lane and i'm assuring you we did not spy on members of