congressional leaders. basically, the idea being that congress and the administrations of both parties have built this system. so they're all in it together. is that the general feeling that there's going to be some bipartisanship here because the surveillance state is bipartisan? >> everything about this story is going to be bipartisan. you're going to have a bipartisan group of folks who are going to support this program, defend this program, hopefully at some point they'll explain this program to the public like we're all adult, and then you're going to have a bipartisan group of critics of this program, whether it's rand paul on the right, others on the the left. bipartisanship is going to break out all over the place both in support and outrage. but it is having to do i think what's still not clear and what it's my understanding that the white house is going to try to do is declassify part of this and supposedly at least be more

transpar transparent about what they're doing. but the fact they're databasing and banking telephone numbers which apparently they've been doing for years, not just this 90-day period and not just with verizon folk, by the way, but millions of telephone numbers and telephone exchanges and all of that, if they're doing that, why can't they tell the public? why is this part of it classified? >> right. and in explaining that transparency, chuck, what we have seen from both administrations in the annual reports about the fisa court now look incomplete if not misleading. take a look at the numbers that we have. >> yes. >> 1,856 electronic surveillance requests on the left and then just 212 business record requests per year. that what does that mean? that mean 2s 00 or so times a year we have these requests coming in. >> and so i think now we're going to learn is one -- maybe

requesting one verizon request for, oh, millions of stuff, is the equivalent of one request. i think that's what we're going to find out, so that you're right, those numbers will be technically accurate but incredibly misleading. >> exactly. that's what i want to draw you out on. it seems confusing to people to say we have 212 but one counts for many millions and that's been a tradition that may have started in the previous administration but it seems like the opposite of transparency if the numbers are that misleading. >> exactly. that's what i think -- you see some white house aides that they are wringing their hands over this, claiming that they know that some parts of this, it seems silly that it is classified and maybe that they should be more transparent about some aspects of this. and, you know, the more reporting that all of us here in the bureau have been doing and everything you keep finding out is that this has to do with if you don't get the phone companies to do this, some of

this information disappears and then they can't find out if they need to do a database search in a moment in time because they find a cell phone from a terrorist or they break up a terrorist cell somewhere in london. you know, you hear some intelligence experts give us very rational explanations about this, but my concern is why are we getting it from intelligence expert if some of this is very basic and you can explain it publicly, then the administration, congress, the judicial branch who are all in this together ought to explain this more publicly. >> michael, let me go to you. i actually have mixed feelings on this surveillance issue as i did under the bush administration, but putting that aside, when you put all of this together, the doj ap case, the half a dozen prosecutions under the espionage act, drone strikes on american citizens, irs targeting, this peeling back of privacy and civil liberties, is this going to be a blip in this administration or looking forward do you see this as a

potential legacy-defining kind of moment? >> you're talking about the political narrative and i think it probably is not a blip in the political narrative. i would say it's important to distinguish this from, you know, the ap subpoena, for instance. this is a program everyone is saying has been around at least seven years. "usa today" had a story about a large secret nsa database of people's phone records in 2006. it's not a new thing. it's unlike the nsa wireless tap weg had during the bush administration which was the issue there were courts were not involved and it may have been an illegal program. no one is raising that in this case. >> right. >> so there are important differences. but in terms of the political narrative and the press narrative, yeah, i'm sure this is going to be royaled together. you can just throw this on the pile and, you know, see if you can increase it. the other thing i would say, back to what chuck was saying and ari is i'm less concerned this database exists than i am about how it's being used.

and what this document that has just come out shows is that, you know, it confirms what was reported before, there's a very large database, enormous amounts of information. but what we still don't have clear guidance on is exactly how the nsa can then query this database and what they can look for. and, you know, do they have to go to a court every time? do they have to go just for the one number of the terrorists? can they just then start looking up every person and every person who might have called the terrorists and is connected with them and how many steps removed can they go? these are sort of basic questions that in a nonclassified setting we would have some guidance of. i'm not convinced there's a great national security reason not to have this discussion in public. and i'm hoping that in the coming weeks that's the kind of information that can come out. >> chuck, mike raises some good points there. do you have any sort of idea how the nsa might use this stuff? and do you have a sense of perhaps maybe is the headline worse than the actual story here when americans here, oh, my god, they took all our phone records, what did they do with them?

well, they're not dealing with the content of the records. when you dig into what's going on there, is it maybe the story is a little more soeber? >> well, i think, you know, if the public only every day realized how much of what they do on a day-to-day basis isn't private even though they think it is, that in itself would be scary. and i wanted to add something to what f.c. said about different privacy things. hook at what the supreme court ruled is legal when it comes to dna. that's a whole other slippery slope on the privacy front. you were asking specifically about the database and to go deeper into what mike was saying it's exactly -- what is unclear is supposedly, to answer michael's question, to supposedly that as this database is used, every time it is used that nsa has to essentially report back to the fisa court and make sure what they're doing is legal. and every time and the fisa court, yes, it's legal, they go back and continue to do it, that

is supposedly the check and balance. but at the end of the day we're taking somebody's word for it, and that is the -- you know, that is -- the nut of this. and remember candidate obama was the guy saying, hey, you know, this is an issue, i don't like it. >> scary stuff, yeah. >> and it's not about what's going on but who's in charge of doing the watching. well, it's not all trusting is. it's trust but verify. >> i think it's really interesting that you had all these programs that might have started under bush and under obama. they've simply been expanded. you know, not thrown out. but really expanded into sort of deeper territory. mike, what do you make of the fact that a british media outlet got this story? >> well, congratulations to them. i mean, i don't know what to make of it. i don't think -- i mean, i saw some posts online today that, you know, this shows that the american press is sleeping on the job. i'm not sure that necessarily follows p like i said before,

this program was disclosed in "usa today" in 2006. it's not a new program. what's new is that we have a document saying it was recently reauthorized, which is bringing this to everybody's attention. but the idea that the nsa had a very large database of meta data they were trolling has been out there before. it's not entirely new information. >> what about the verizon statement? i'm just curious. the verizon statement, you know, that they had no choice but to comply with this. some are suggesting they could have said no. is that legit? >> back in 2006 there were companies like qwest communications was resisting the request from nsa and the justice department. in 2008 i believe there were updates to the fisa law passed that provided protections, legal protections for the telephone companies against lawsuits that would arise from this. so i think most of those concerns from the corporations have gone away because congress has said you can't go after them

for anything they do here. >> but they've not gone away where others are concerned. google is concerned about handing over klines' information. these are stories that just won't go away. >> that's a very important part. there's a whole other discussion happening in washington about nonnational security-related subpoenas for vast amounts of e-mail. right now under the law the fbi in just a regular criminal investigation can by subpoena, not warrant, which is a lower standard, get enormous amounts of information from your gmail count, for instance, going back years without the same sort of checks and balances that you would have under a normal warrant. there's a separate process under way now which there is some bipartisan agreement that we need to update that to restrict some of the electronic records. >> that legislative history from 2008 is so important because the telecommunications companies were granted a blanket immunity pap lot of people said at the time that would shrink court oversight, it has done that and now of course like the gun

manufacturers and other contexts we don't have the ability to take some of these issues to a civil suit. i know we want to get to some politics before we go, right, toure? >> yeah, chuck. governor christie said he's going to appoint new jersey attorney general jeff chiesa to hold the senate seat vacated by senator lautenberg. what do you think about that pick? >> christie did not want to appoint a caretaker. attorney general, he's not going to be a candidate. he's just serving out until a new senator is elected in the october special election. but that tells you cristy couldn't find somebody willing to give up their congressional seat, their state senate seat, what they have to do this because what looks like a long shot fi any republican to win. and i think that's probably a big disappointment to some national republican, and it goes to them being upset of the way

christie, you know, intermented the law. he could have easily made the decision. now, he may have lost in court if he'd done this -- of trying to have the appointee last all the way till november 2014. had he been able to do that, my guess is he would have found a candidate willing to be on the ballot. the fact he couldn't find a candidate willing to be on the ballot, the attorney general is in an appointed position. my guess is he might get reappointed back to that position after he's done being a u.s. senator. >> chris christie seems better at making people in new jersey happy than the national republicans. >> well, he is a governor at the end of the day. he's running for governor. all politics is local. right? >> absolutely. chuck and michael, thanks for joining us. don't forget to watch "the daily rundown" tomorrow with chuck and congressman john dingle, who will become the longest serving congressman tomorrow. while you're at it, pick up "time" magazine's new copy for michael's new piece. straight ahead, an exclusive. attorney general eric holder on

those reporter phone record and whether he intend to step down. pete williams joins us. how can you get back pain relief that lasts up to 16 hours?

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in a budget hear tong hill this afternoon, attorney general eric holder confirmed members of congress were briefed about the nsa obtaining phone records of millions of verizon customers. earlier he sat down exclusively with nbc news justice correspondent pete williams to address the calls for his resignation. pete joins us from washington for a special spin cycle. pete? >> a couple things about this.

we should emphasize the interview with the attorney general was before this latest story broke about the nsa data collection. and secondly, the goal was really to talk to him about how the justice department has handled the previous leak investigations. what he says is under the current laws and rules that he is not comfortable with the legal standard the justice department must meet in order to gather some of these records. >> reporter: despite intense criticism from congress over leak investigations and even some calls for him to step down, attorney general eric holder says he's not going anywhere yet. >> there are some things that i want to do, some things i want to get done that i discussed with the president. and once i have finished that i'll sit down with him and we'll determine when it's time to make a transition to a new attorney general. >> but to be clear you're not stepping down now. >> no. i have no intention of doing so now. >> reporter: but he says a round of meetings with news media executives persuaded him that the rules governing leak investigations should be changed. >> i'm a little concerned that things have got an little out of

whack. >> reporter: recently released court records show the justice department obtained phone and e-mail records of fox news reporter james rosen to investigate the leak of sensitive intelligence about north korea. in seeking the records, the government called the reporter at the very least an aider or abettor or co-conspirator. holder says the law that required that phrase to get a search warrant should be changed. >> so that you never call a reporter who is simply doing his or her job in gathering news a criminal. that is not something i'm comfortable with. i am not comfortable with guideline weather rules, with laws that would force us to do something like that. >> reporter: and he says he favors giving the news media the chance to fight requests for records before they're turned over. >> to make them aware of the fact that this is information that we are seeking and allow them to raise any objections, any concerns that they have. and i don't think that our prosecutions are necessarily going to be put at risk by sharing that information, by making those notifications more

frequently than we have. >> and he also says that all the focus in these leak investigations has been on the government leaker not the reporter, that he's not interested in prosecuting them. he said it more emphatically today in his appearance before the senate appropriations subcommittee. he said not only has he never asked for a reporter to be prosecuted as long as he's attorney general, he never will ask that reporters be prosecuted. only the people who have these classified documents who leak them, he said. >> pete, it was a fascinating interview. put me in the room. i'm really interested in sort of a scene setting here. this is a guy who has to know that his legacy is going to be that of a controversial a.g. some guy, when they're really embattled, get excited and sort of it spurs them on. some obviously get a little downtrodden and look a little worse for wear. what was his attitude when you were interviewing? how does he see it?

>> no different really than usual. i asked him about the criticism he's gotten, and he says some of it's good that he takes the good criticism into account, and will adjust things as necessary. he says he's not perfect, uns that there will need to be changes made, but he also thinks a good deal of the criticism was politically driven and he's made it clear he'll push back in his second term when he's up on the hill and you've already seen some of that. >> yeah. >> why did he want to sit down with you right now? is he saying i'm definal, resilient, bleeding and need to attack back? >> i think what he's saying is i've met with news media executives and i think they have a point about some of their concerns about how the government has investigated some of these leaks. and he is sympathetic to what he thinks the concerns are of the news media.

the image the united states has around the world when it looks like it's investigating reporters. he wants to see if the rules can't be changed and he thinks some of them can be. >> pete, i have a comment and a question. the comment jumped out at the me the word choice he used with you when he said they're not going to go after reporter, that won't happen on his watch, but he didn't use the word publisher. and in the wikileaks era that has been the bigger question, whether a grand jury can be impaneled to go after wikileaks or some of its u.s. interests. that just jumped out at me. my question for you is on recus recusal. everyone who practices law knows there are times that come up when recusal is the ethical thing. i recused myself from cases when i used to practice law. the attorney general has done so at least on the ap leaks case where he was going to be a witness, yet he's also looked, separate from recusal, sort of hands off saying he's learned about things late or is not as involved. do you think he is striking the right balance in explaining that to congress and the american people and when he is hands off

and why? >> as to your comment, the government's been pretty clear here. at least senior justice department officials have been pretty clear when they talk about journalists they mean publisher, too. >> yeah. >> i think that's frankly why you haven't seen any prosecution in the wikileaks case, because the government would have to say we make a distinction between, say, a publisher like wikileaks, how do we say that's different from "the new york times" and "the huffington post," who also have websites. i don't think too much should be read into the attorney general using the term reporters. that was an answer to a specific question about the language in the search warrant that did refer to a reporter, james rosen of "the new york times." as to whether the attorney general's explanations have sufficiently satisfied congress, there are 45 4 35 of them in the house, another 1 nushgs the senate better able to answer that question than me. >> all right. pete william, thanks for joining us in "the cycle." >> you bet.

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a few other stories leading the news cycle this thursday. tropical storm andrea expected to make landfall this afternoon along florida's west coast. heavy rain and rough surf are pounding the sunshine state this afternoon but nothing too severe. the storm is headed up the eastern seaboard. atlanta, d.c., and new york could see 3-plus inches of rain. in philadelphia, searchers are still sifting through the rubble from went's building collapse. a 61-year-old woman was found alive in the rubble after more than 13 hours. investigators do not believe anyone else is still trapped. and in d.c., fireworks on capitol hill during a hearing about lavish spending on irs

conferences. new rules are being put into place after it was revealed millions were spent on extravagant employee events which at the time followed agency protocol. speaking of money, this year marks the 50th anniversary of president kennedy signing the equal pay act, an act that he said ensured, quote, when women enter the labor force they will find equality in their pay envelope. but today a half-century later women make three-quarters of what men make, earning less than men at every educational level. the factors are numerous and wide ranging from workplace discrimination to having to take care of children to the fact that women are sometimes less likely to pursue those higher salaries for a range of reasons. as our next guest says, it's been 50 years already. isn't it time to stop debaying whether moms should work and start discussing what's holding them back? indeed. in the guest spot today, stephanie kuentz, director of research for the council on contemporary families. stephanie,ly's chance ta question. why are so many women being held

back and making less than men? >> well, it's working in a lot of different ways. in the first place, of course, there is outright discrimination. when you attach a woman's name and a man's name to the same job application, she is less likely to be hired. and if she is hired she is offered a lower starting salary. so another part of it is that we have been socialized, that it's rude for women to negotiate. and in fact we do get penalized when we negotiate. it's sort of a double bind. we don't ask for higher salaries so we start at lower salary, and that mounts over the years because promotions are based on your salary. but if we ask for higher salaries sometimes we're not hired at all because we're seen as pushy. in a man it's assertive and in a woman it's, you know, bitchy. one of the big factors is america has few systems to help women stay in the workforce when they have kids. we don't have job-protected ma tern tif leave, subsidized

maternity leave, child care systems. so the motherhood penalty in america is about twice as high as it is in european countries that have those better paid leave systems. >> we've talked about women dominating in college and graduate schools, going a lot more than men are. do you see this trend continuing into the enthusiastic chur? do you think educational advance pt will help women to move forward? >> well, i think that actually some of the huge gains that women have made are tapering off right now. but it's kind of ironic because women have to earn higher degrees than men to get the same salary. but now, back in 1962, a woman college graduate working full-time earned less than the average male high school graduate and less than many high school dropouts. today that's no longer true. but she still at every educational level, a woman with a bah earns less than a man with a b.a. so you have to get a

master's degree to earn as much as a b.a. degree. >> stephanie, you know, i've heard from a lot of women who say they're hesitant about equal pay because they actually like the flexibility that they get being working moms. they want to leave work early. they want reduced work hours. they want to work from home. and they say they prefer those intangible payoffs rather than the paycheck. and they're embarrassed to say this because they don't want to be perceived as anti-equality. but they're concerned about the thing theys eel have to give up to get that. >> it's true we have a lot of high-pressure jobs and men would often prefer to get a little more flexibility. but here's the sad irony. it is sort of those high-pressure jobs that actually have better work family policies. they have longer paid leaves. they are more likely to let you work from home than the low-paying jobs that you can move in and out of.

so i understand, i would not blame any woman for any choice she makes in an environment that is so family unfriendly as the united states has turned out to be. but sometimes i think we make a mistake when we think, oh, well, let's go into this flexible job that is going to allow me to take time off. we're actually kind of getting in the way of having the kind of job where is they need us enough that they are going to have to start accommodating our desires as parents. >> so let's talk about family friendly public policy. you've written that countries like the uk have ten months, give or take, paid maternity leave. that can make a big difference in continuity for women. that seems to be a bit of a different point than total equality or pay parity, which we focussed a lot on here in the leadbetter act in the united states. but that's not about equality, is it. it's more about actually having a proportional policy for what women go through when they're mothers and keep them in the workforce. is that a model that feminists

should focus more on in the u.s.? >> well, i think it's very important model. one of the interesting things of research is that if you give women too much leave, you know, more than two years, three or four years as happens in some place like germany, employers actually don't want to hire them. but if you give them too little leave, as we do here, then they themselveses have to quit. so the research suggests somewhere between a year and two years of subsidized job protective leaves is the best for moms. let me just add that one of the things that's real sad about a lot of our discussion of these family leaves is we forget that workers also need leaves to take care of aging parents. this isn't just a woman's issue. men now are reporting higher levels of work/family conflict than women are. so these are policies that would help all of our workforce be more productive, more loyal workers and at the same time help us as a society not have to

send kids or aging parents off to kind of be warehoused, that we would be able to help them out more. >> on that point, do you think that the family policy leave should always be jernd neutral or should it accrue more to women? >> i think that it should be gender neutral. of course women may also need extra time because of the hardships of pregnancy, and that can be seen as a disability. but i do think that the countries that experimenting like norway and sweden and now quebec with having use it or lose it paternity leave is so that the mother gets paternity leave but the dad gets it and he can't just turn it over the him, they're finding more men are taking paternity leave and once they've take than leave, men gain the confidence that they have historically not had, just like women feel, oh, gosh, i don't know how to do some of these jobs, men feel women have always been the experts in child care. once they actually have the

hands-on experience of doing it them, even after they go back to work they do more child care. it's a plus for marriages and kids. >> exactly right. extraordinarily gratifying. stephanie coontz, thank you very much. >> thank you. up next, rolling the dice on a new start in sin city? i turned 65 last week.

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[ male announcer ] new alka seltzer fruits chews. hoo-hoo...hoo-hoo. hoo-hoo hoo. sir... i'll get it together i promise... heeheehee. jimmy: ronny, how happy are folks who save hundreds of dollars switching to geico? ronny:i'd say happier than the pillsbury doughboy on his way to a baking convention. get happy. get geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more. american communities from michigan to south florida to nevada have been hit hard by the modern era, the mortgage crisis and the recession. one popular tech billionaire, however, is looking not only to reverse the tide of decline but redefine the meaning of community in a pretty unlikely place, sin city. crystal made the trip for us. >> reporter: you may know downtown hay vai gas as the

setting for history channel's "pawn stores." >> i'll give you 200 bucks for it. >> or as the backdrop for some classics. and while a bit of danger and grit is good for the movie, seedy motel, bail bond service, and questionable characters of downtown these days have kept many locals and tourists from coming to this side of town to spend their money. >> even six months ago it was a little scary for me to walk east four more blocks at night. >> reporter: but with the help of zappo.com's tony shay, it's changing. >> for me what's exciting is really just the vibe and the feeling of energy in the area and people that are building something themselves but also being part of this idea of thinking of the city as a start-up. >> reporter: shay knows a thing or two about start-up, having built a struggling online shoe retailer into a multibillion-dollar business. and more importantly for him, a place employees like to work. it was during a project to

create the perfect work/play campus that the downtown project was born. >> instead of just focusing on ourselves, what if we kind of turned it all inside-out and focused on the community and the surrounding ecosystem which in the long run will help us attract and retain more employees but also help the community and the city? >> reporter: he committed $350 million of his own money to that goal. for real estate buys, educational and cultural development, including a park with shipping containers and a fire-breathing statue that's currently under construction, small business investment and tech start-up funding. there are investment is paying off. >> we've had someone come and visit for a few days about a month ago and described it as an entrepreneur's disneyland. >> reporter: they build smartphone robots. >> right now he's looking for a face to follow. he gets happy as soon as i can see me.

if i get too close, he'll freak out. over time if i keep doing this he'll eventually fall in love with me. >> reporter: it was the first technology start-up to get the backing of the tech fund. >> we wanted to create a robot that could do a lot of things they do in science fiction movies but be p cheap enough that people like us could afford them. right now we're focused on selling robots to hackers and kids, which interestingly is how the pc got started. >> reporter: it's start-ups and visionary entrepreneurs like this that shay hopes will jump-start what he's trying to create. >> it's pretty different from most redevelopment or urban revitalization projects in that we're actually very anti-top-down master of planning. we really want this to be organic and evolving thing. >> reporter: the philosophy may be anti-top down but the direction definitely comes from on high. he oversees it all from his 23rd-floor apartment/meeting place -- party space/de facto

downtown project headquarters. most of the ideas for the downtown project actually start as humble post-it notes on this wall. there's really a little bit of everything here. you've got a doughnut store. a hike and bike trail. and of course a unicorn store. in the 16 months since the revitalization effort started, ten small businesses have launched including a high-end clothing boutique and check-cashing joint. cute. >> and tony gave me five weeks to just flip it and open it. >> reporter: and a restaurant beyond chef natalie young's wildest dreams. >> never, ever, ever in a million years did i think i would have my own restaurant. i was working in a casino downtown and i decided that i was kind of done with that. i felt like all the love was out of the food. i was on my way out of town, was going to move to santa fe. i need a white and a wheat. i got it. >> reporter: but a friend introduced her to shay, who told her to come up with a business man and ultimately became a partner in eat. >> they're not just giving you

the fish. they're not just feeding you. they're giving you the knowledge to feed yourself. >> reporter: less than eight months into business, young is already close to paying off her loan. how has business been? >> amazing. amazing. the community has really supported eat. people from the suburbs. it's a phenomenon. everybody comes. it's really cool. sometimes i stand back and scratch my head and go, oh, i just made a few sandwiches. >> reporter: community is a word you hear a lot here. in fact, it's fair to say this revitalization project is as much about this neighborhood as it is about the economy. >> rather than focus on kind of the short to medium-turn roi needs or cash-flow needs that most developers have, we really have a long-term approach and something we refer to as roc, return on community. >> tony's whole philosophy of return on community i think at its root it's that you can do things that are good for the community and also end up being good for the company. >> reporter: on the day of our visit, the self-described nerds were charging up robots for a school visit aimed at getting

kids interested in computer science, robot, and technology. >> we wouldn't be where it was today without the ecosystem that tony is building here. imts not about shallow relationships. it's about a much deeper level of community and friendship and support. >> go to have lunch and they're, like, hey, natalie, hey, chef. i love that. that's a community. >> reporter: which is one thing about downtown vegas shay hopes doesn't stay in vegas. >> i think what we want other communities and cities to take away from this is not so much that they want to replicate necessarily the community here but what is worth replicating is thinking about how do you get people more connected with each other and feel part of something themselv themselves. and that's the message that we want to spread. >> thanks to crystal for that report. she learned that the downtown community is about to get a whole lot bigger. zappos has leased out the vegas city hall and are busy fixing it up with 1,400 employee who is will move in this fall when it

becomes the new headquarters. we hear they're even turning some of the old jail cells into bar called, yes, bars. we have post-its and links to the downtown project and the businesses profiled in crystal's story, plus a photo album from her visit including more of tony shay's amazing apartment and the strange animal that's come to be associated with the project. >> what? all on the website. coming up, something we're pretty excited about, the man who made us all rethink the hot pocket. >> is your hot pocket cold in the middle? it's frozen. but it can be served boiling lava hot. will it burn my mouth? it'll destroy your mouth. [ male announcer ] this is bob,

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tens of thousands of dollars in hidden fees on their 401(k)s?! go to e-trade and roll over your old 401(k)s to a new e-trade retirement account. none of them charge annual fees and all of them offer low cost investments. e-trade. less for us. more for you. try and be a good dad. i sat the older three down and explained to them that the new baby does not love them any less. but i will have to let one of them go. >> tough dad. that was the always funny jim gaffgon comedian and author of "dad is fat." a collection of stories on the joy of parenting especially with five kids in a two-bedroom apartment in new york city. jim joins us in a guest spot at the table. >> i'm here at the table. i'm part of the family here. >> i love ho you make it sound like you woke up one morning and suddenly you had five new people in your apartment. like you accidentally watered

gizmo and all these gremlins pop out. >> crazy. >> like you didn't know how kids are made. >> i know that the stork comes and he must like our building. but i don't know what happened. honestly ten years ago i couldn't get a date and now my apartment is literally crawling with babies. >> with five you would be crawling with babies. >> there's babies crawling through my parm. it's hard. >> five little people who you are response nl for from 9 years to how old is the baby? >> i haven't met him yet. he's so young. he's young. >> how do you even know everything about all five little people? >> you know, that is -- i'm just really good at making babies. i'm really good at it. i'm more -- in a way you could say i'm more manly than toure. >> you feel you're more manly than toure? >> in some ways, yes. well, some of it is my wife is -- i'm catholic, my wife is very catholic. she's a shiite catholic so,

there's that. but each of my five children, they've made me a better man. and based on that equation i only need another 34 to be a decent guy. but i love being a dad. and it's -- you know, my wife is very fertile. i don't even let her hold avocados at this point. but it's all good. wouldn't you say being a father is the most important job you'll have in your life? >> without a doubt. the most important, the hardest, the most challenging. it makes you tired. and you walk in the door, everybody jumps on you. >> it's terrifying. and there's a great essay that, by the way, i wrote describing how fatherhood -- we're really the vice president and the family. we are. >> irrelevant. we're the vice president of the executive branch of the family. mom is the president. the mom is bill clinton feeling their pain and we're al gore, the nerd, telling everyone to turn off the lights. it's awkward but, you know, that's how it is.

and, you know, it's -- >> but your book isn't just about dad. it's also about fat. >> yes. >> your stand-up is a lot about food and exercise. >> yes. >> one thing i know that you like, i've read up on you, you love when cable news tries to quote your routines. you. >> i do like that. you have this whole thing -- >> i love jim. you have this whole bit where you talk about being at the jim and they put the machines in the lobby of the gym. so there's the glass and the person working out. you're like, i don't want to be on the other side of that window. >> you don't want to see -- why are there mirrors in a gym? what is that for? >> the real question is, you heard him do that line. is he any good at it? >> i like the part where he said i'm a big jim gaffigan fan. >> you told us in during tthe b ari, you ace proepproached him

bar as he was waiting to use the bathroom. >> what did jim say to you? you're creepy. and thus he ended up on the program. wow. >> doesn't know how to do the punch line because we missed the lead-up where i said i'll wait to take a picture with you until you come out of the bathroom. you said, that's not creepy. >> that is creepy. >> this is the real question, though. why is obesity and exercise so funny? why is that such a ripe material for you? >> and food. you do food jokes. >> my comedy, i write about what i know. i romanticize laziness. not that i can be lazy when i have five children, or if you have one child. if you have an impressive job, you can't be lazy. there's a romantic notion of the lazy times we had. not that i can eat bacon with every meal. what if we could only eat everything bagels? imagine how great the world would be. >> talking about romance, our dads' entirely different

approach to fathering than we are able to have nowadays. think about some of the lessons your father taught you, great dad, can't follow his model anymore. >> right. we're in a post-phil donahue or dr. phil era where the amazing thing about our fathers' generation, really they did is brought home the bacon. by that they didn't shop for the bacon or bring the bacon home or cook it. they just ate the bacon which is understa understandable. >> it's a metaphor. >> it's not that they didn't do anything. it's that our fathers didn't feel guilty. that's what i find. have a summer for a baby and a winter, and i still feel guilty. you feel guilty when you're taking them somewhere that you're not interacting them. you take them to a healthy place to eat, you feel guilty because they're not enjoying it like they would if it was just horrible pizza. >> you can never be home enough. if you have to be the one bringing home the bacon and you definitely feel guilty about that. >> you feel guilty, but it's like existing with it.

it's like, it's like jewish guilt and catholic guilt then you smoosh those together and add an enhancer and that's parental guilt. >> you come from a big catholic midwestern family. dad was a republican you say before republicans were dad people. i appreciate that. >> he was -- i describe it that i was raised to seek security. >> okay. >> you know, where security was wearing a coat and tie. and so i go on stage and i tell diarrhea jokes. so it's a different thing. my parents were very socially liberal. they were depression era, you know, where my father was the first one to go to college, and so, you know, i was fortunate enough, he paid for my college. >> you went to georgetown. people don't know you went to georgetown. >> i did. >> i'm very familiar with d.c. were you a martins? were you with the tombs? >> i couldn't afford the tombs. i was, you know, i graduated in 1904. >> okay. >> but there was -- i was at the

pub where it was, i think there were, like, nickel beer nights. >> nice. >> the amount of alcohol that was consumed in college -- >> you also talk about how with the fat thing and the exercise thing that fit skinny people sort of annoy you. and that taps into how i think a lot of people feel. when you see something that's really fit at the gym, you're like, you're done. >> there's something where it looks so -- my wife who's a very -- a very attractive woman -- >> i bet. she's a hottie. >> if i'm with her, there's usually, you know, when i'm with her and people find out she's my wife, there's usually an audible wow. which is, i suppose, flattering, but it hurts my feelings a little bit. i'm not a caveman. you know, but she is genetic anomaly. she's had five children. i look like i've had more kids than her. >> so with the five kids, takes a lot to keep them in line. do you spank? >> no spanking. no spanking. and they know i'm not going to spank. the title of this book was, you know, my son who's now 7, the first sentence that he wrote on

a dry erase board was dad is fat. he showed it to me, then i put him up for adoption. >> so how do you keep everybody in line? or you just don't? >> well, you know, there's -- no, we -- there's an ongoing -- it's like herding sheep. you try your best and there's, you know, there's blackmailing. there's a lot of negotiating. you're like, if you want dessert, you better get a sticker in preschool. oh, you didn't get a sticker at preschool, you're the not goino get dessert. >> i didn't want to have more kids than us, i didn't want to be outnumbered or play man to man. you're beyond zoned. >> i'm creating my own nationality. there's going to be a country called gaffganistan. get ready, they're pretty pale. >> between all these kids, how did you find time and space to write a book? >> i wrote everything with my wife. my wife's my writing partner,

and it was late at night. but my wife is one of these rare people. she's like napoleon. she can go on three hours of sleep. >> wow. >> so i -- i would work a lot during the day and then she would turn my insane drivel into coherence. >> lucky guy. jim gaffigan, thanks for being here. >> thanks for having me. appreciate it. i love you all. >> more "cycle" ahead, next. [ phil ] when you have joint pain and stiffness... accomplishing even little things can become major victories. i'm phil mickelson, pro golfer. when i was diagnosed with psoriatic arthritis, my rheumatologist prescribed enbrel for my pain and stiffness, and to help stop joint damage. [ male announcer ] enbrel may lower your ability to fight infections. serious, sometimes fatal events including infections, tuberculosis, lymphoma, other cancers, nervous system and blood disorders, and allergic reactions have occurred. before starting enbrel,

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cycle." martin, we'll pass it over to you. >> thank you very much, indeed, whoever you are. >> i love you. >> good afternoon. it's thursday june the 6th. washington, there's a call on line one, but i guess you already knew that, didn't you? >> i will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need. >> stunning report. >> i'm a verizon customer. >> not one more thing. >> i don't mind verizon turning over records. >> big brother is spying on all of us. >> this will trigger a leak investigation. >> you have ben rosen. >> exploiting a part of the highly controversial patriot act. >> everyone should just calm down. this isn't anything that is brand new. >> president bush started it. president obama's continuing it. >> this man ran as the anti-bush. >> fisa court works. separation of powers works. our constitution works. >> what the obama administration has done is massively more expansive than what bush did. >>