for a live show since doing this on monday night. we do not know what his act of bravery will cost him. whether he knew that bravery would be part of what was breaking news tonight in the ongoing story of the government's collection of your data. glen greenwald, the man who broke the story about the nsa collecting records of all verizon phone calls, is breaking another big story tonight about your personal data that the government is collecting. but first, another day, another darrell issa hearing on the irs. the house oversight and government reform committee is holding another hearing on the irs. >> we've only had six hearings on the irs. shouldn't we have more?

>> the laws exclusively -- >> exclusively involved in the social welfare. >> the laws exclusively in the implementing regulation is primary. >> the regulation says primarily. >> why don't you have to follow the law? >> i don't want to presuppose what the interpretation of exclusivity is. i have a regulation that i have to abide by. that uses the word "primary." >> it's out of compliance with federal law. nonpolitical group should get this status. >> aiming sees must follow the law. >> this was the targeting of the president's political enemies. >> the administration is still their paid liar, spokesperson. >> and lies about it during the election year. >> he is still making up things. >> there is some concern that issa may have pushed it too far. >> congressman darrell issa is grilling irs officials. >> today he has been more measured. >> i want to thank you. this is a good start. i don't want to trap anyone. no, you're good? you're good? >> there seem to be a more tempered darrell issa. >> i want to thank the president. >> holy [ bleep ]. >> for appointing you to an acting passion. >> there seem to be a more tempered darrell issa.

>> another secret surprise. >> it is vexing, i think, to all of us. today, darrell issa's house committee on oversight and government reform called in the man whom president obama sent in to fix the irs, and finally, in the testimony of acting commissioner david werfel, the truth came out, the smoking gun was found and we now have proof that federal law was violated. >> i know the regulation now is more than 50 years old. but do you know why treasury changed it from exclusive to primary? >> i do not. >> you do not. >> and is there any reason why you think we should not use the exclusive test today? >> i think it's something that i don't -- i want to work with the treasury department and committees in congress to explore.

right now i have a regulation that i have to abide by that uses the word "primary." and so that's what i'm working with. >> regular viewers of this program learned nothing in this exchange today, because you've all known for weeks now that the law written by congress 100 years ago on 501(c)(4) tax status says an organization must be involved exclusively in social welfare in order to qualify for that status and the law has said for years that a social welfare organization is not organized for profit, but operated exclusively for the promotion of social welfare. but in 1959, for reasons no one can figure out, the irs changed the word in the law exclusively to the word "primarily" in guidance that the irs writes for its agents in enforcing the law. in 1959, the irs violated the law by changing the law, without congressional authority. that was all in the hearing today. if the irs hadn't changed that

law in 1959, every political organization applying for 501(c)(4) status would have been rejected and there would have been nothing scandalous about that. today, washington is pretending its scandalous that the political organizations applying for the 501(c)(4) status, that they did not deserve, and should have been met -- they should have been rejected. that the scandal is that they got -- they didn't get approved fast enough. they were all approved. they just didn't get approved fast enough. but only a few democrats in washington realize what the irs scandal really is. here's nevada congressman steve horsburgh. >> the laws exclusively -- why don't you have to follow the law? >> actually, i have to follow the law and regulation. >> so the law is exclusively. >> the law is exclusively and the implementing regulation is primary. and that's part of the challenge. >> so the regulation is not in compliance with federal law. >> i -- >> correct? >> i don't know that i can answer that question.

i think that's something that we have to review with -- >> well, you said earlier that primary activity is not the same as exclusive. >> it's not. and -- >> so therefore, it's out of compliance with federal law. and i believe, mr. chairman, that agencies must follow the law. we as congress set the law. we haven't changed the law from exclusively. and it's important that you implement your regulations accordingly. i'm glad to hear that you're reviewing that. >> i am. >> with the treasury, and that you have agreed to some bipartisan participation. because the law is exclusively. >> and i want to be clear. the ambiguity that's created between the law saying exclusive and the regulation saying primary is a problem. and it's, you know, one of the contributing factors. >> so therefore, the reg needs to be changed to be in compliance with federal law. unless capping changes the law, that's the standard.

>> alex wagner, i rest my case. i rest my case. my work is done here. >> drop the mic. i'm outta here. >> i wish a single cable news host had picked up on this! who -- i should have been educated about this before today. >> didn't even have to start your own 501 c 4 organization, as i unwisely suggested several weeks ago. but it is actually -- i feel like you deserve at least a golf clap for that, because it is a big deal. and finally congress has clued into it. >> is there -- did something happen in that hearing today, besides that, that gives the feel of the wind going out of the sails of this thing? >> yes. >> the issa politeness, the thank you very much, mr. president for this wonderful new director? >> we sat at this table a week ago. i think it was a week ago, two weeks ago. and i said, there is no -- there is not the fire -- there are not enough, like, logs in the fire to keep this burning for very long. >> no page 2. >> there's not a page 2. and they have -- now, let's be

clear. they have tried to, like, turn it over to, like, star trek videos and offsite conferences and stuff. >> for which we thank them. >> for which us in cable news like star trek videos, which is why they have been successful. but this specific issue has burned itself out. >> darrell issa is not going to stop. he, darrell issa, accused the irs of malicious self indulgence. let's unpack that. darrell issa accused someone else of malicious self indulgence. i'm dropping my mic on that. >> he was a little kind of pot and kettle thing. >> maybe, just perhaps. >> so here is the -- what they want to turn it into at minimum, even if it leaves center stage of washington hearing rooms and all of that. and that is what the chairman of the florida republican party put out in a memo, advice to republicans about how to exploit the irs story.

i encourage you to use this in your campaigns when you're on the trail. ask your democrat opponents. are you comfortable with the irs overseeing your health care? why? why would you hold the obama administration for their hand in the irs scandal? how? >> this is the dangerous part of this, i think. is the republican party is not predicated on any new policy ideas. i mean, mitt romney's campaign was built on obfuscation. it's clear that the gop is built on obfuscation. and what they're going to try and do is use this as a tool to unwind obamacare and undermine the democratic project on hold. and you know what, unfortunately, lies gain traction in modern society and especially within the republican base. michele bachmann's lies about vaccines causing autism are believed by a fifth of this country. and that's where the counter narrative has got to be strong. >> i would say this -- >> which is the truth, by the way. the counter narrative is actually the truth. >> on day one, the story this broke, i think it was ted cruz's

speech writer tweeted out about like this is the same -- these are the same people who are going to handle obamacare? so from the first day they have had their sights on this. b., that's a pretty good attack. if i were running as a republican candidate, i would absolutely use that. and with all of the stories swirling around and people reading things out of the corner of their eyes, that's absolutely going to be a problematic political attack for democrats, no question. the third thing of this is, republicans hate the irs and they have always hated the irs. >> everyone hates the irs. >> what did gingrich congress do after '94? this is just -- they're doing the same thing all over again. a whole other set of issues there. but they just dragged the irs before committees, and they beat them up. they deappropriated them. stripped down their ability to actually do their job. this is a long tradition for republican members of congress to go after this agency. >> and they have also used -- they tried to use this situation to say, oh, look, this is why there shouldn't be a tax code. and instead of saying, hey, wait, this is why you should use the word that's in the law exclusively, they go, no, no, no.

this is why you should erase the entire tax code, get rid of it, get rid of the irs, so that we'll just have a sales tax or something. >> it's substantive proof they're not actually interested in any kind of reform. this would have been the perfect avenue to say, you know, what let's have a bipartisan conversation about reforming the tax code, which is onerous and confusing. but that hasn't been -- that hasn't been the result of this. it's been let's strike down the tax code, you can't trust government and obamacare is terrible and we're going to repeal it for the 48th time. >> this is one of the weaknesses of the original mandate in health care. every policy you make, there is some weakness to it, a positive to it. one of the weaknesses always was that it does get, quote, enforced through the tax code. which is to say, as in massachusetts, you just put a little thing on your tax return that says, here's my health insurance. and if you have the health insurance, you in effect get a deduction. if you don't have the health insurance, you don't end up getting that deduction. it's just like your mortgage deduction, same thing. but because it exists in that

dreaded irs, you have opened up this little attack window on the health care bill. >> i mean, the grandest irony in all of this, because of agitation in the legislative process, it's actually in the law, the affordable care act, that essentially cannot actually be enforced. they're actually statutorily barred from reaching in and garnishing the money that they would need to enforce the provision. so actually, at the end of this whole chain of logic, they can't enforce the mandate to begin with, because of precisely those complaints. you're exactly right, which is part of the problem here is, there is a perverse incentive on the part of republicans to make the paying of taxes and everything having to do with the irs as horribly complicated and messy and terrible as possible to create a pavlovian response in the american taxpayer that associates just onerous burden and frustration with the act of paying taxes. and there have been for years and years, as you well know, testimonies and progressives who have proposed all sorts of ways to make paying taxes easier and simpler. the automatic, you know -- the

automatic file that would cover up 80% of taxpayers. and republicans and conservatives kill it every time because they want more than anything complexity and they want people to feel frustrated and angry. >> the finance committee, we used to have hearings every april about how complex filing was. we had experts come in who filled out their own tax returns tell us how long it would take them, 28 hours. and we would say, okay, here's our solution to that. we can do it this way. no movement from -- >> isn't that sort of the republican project on every aspect of government at this point? that's what's happening with obama care. it's like state governors aren't going to opt into the exchanges. >> to make them bad. >> to make them bad. the thing -- the light at the end of the tunnel here is, look at minnesota and wisconsin. okay, minnesota is going to have the exchanges. what if it works? the people of wisconsin will look over and think, oh, i am poor, i am sick, i have no health care. why is it that people a couple miles over have a functioning system, and one will hope that the sort off -- the democratic process will lead to leadership that recognizes the needs of their actually constituents

rather than governing by ideology. >> but the -- the tragedy of this irs story is that it has opened up this -- at the moment when you don't want it, this particular attack angle on the affordable health care act. when you're heading into -- up the implementation hill now going right toward it. >> yeah, i mean, look, there's some pulling out today that suggests it's a pattern near the bottom of its trajectory in terms of popularity which i wouldn't find surprising, the impending train wreck. >> and money spent. >> and money spent. the proof in the pudding, is in the eating. which means a year from now or 18 months from now, what's going to matter is whether it's working or not. and you know what, if it doesn't work -- really, if it doesn't work, democrats will pay a price. >> we're going to have to stop it there, because i have to finish reading the paper back edition of the twilight of the elites -- >> pocket-ready. >> christopher hayes, the hard back edition was beautiful. and i love the changes, by the

way. beautiful, brilliant -- >> lawrence o'donnell citations in this version. >> brilliant touches in here. alex wagner and chris hayes, author of "twilight of the elites." let's see what happens on amazon with that. >> i'll be clicking refresh. >> check amazon so we can tell exactly what "the last word" bump was. >> i'll report back next week. >> thanks, lawrence. coming up, the man who broke the story on the government collecting data on all verizon phone calls in this country, including mine. glen greenwald will tell me what i have to be worried about. [ children laughing ] energy efficient appliances. you can get a tax write off for those. a programmable thermostat, very smart, saves money. ♪ cash money sorry. i see you have allstate claim free rewards, for every year you don't have a claim, you'll get money off your home insurance policy. put it towards...

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so you can express your gratitude... in the moment. chase quickpay. so you can. we have breaking news tonight about the government's collection of your data. glen greenwald, the man who broke the story that all verizon phone records are being collected by the government, will join me next. and he will tell us about what

the government is also now collecting from google, from facebook, from apple. that's the new part of the story, and that's next. it was very painful situation. the rash was on my right hip, going all the way down my leg. i'm very athletic and i swim in the ocean. shingles forced me out of the water. the doctor asked me "did you have chickenpox when you were a child?"

the pain level was so high, it became unbearable. we have breaking news tonight. new revelations of the scope of the government's surveillance of your personal data. last night, glen greenwald broke the story that the national security agency is collecting records of every verizon phone call made in the united states and abroad. tonight, glen greenwald and the "washington post" are together, breaking the story that the nsa is tapping into the internet's giant systems to mine user data, including the giants, google, facebook, and apple. the companies have denied any knowledge of that program. glen greenwald, who broke both of these stories, will join us later. but first, let's get what's

happening in washington tonight from nbc news justice correspondent, pete williams. pete, did the cascading of these stories over 24 hours now -- seems a little overwhelming, frankly, to keep up with. >> well, it does, and presents a couple problems. number one, these programs are classified. so we know only what we have been told by members of congress who are familiar with them, by government officials who have been authorized to talk about them. and from other sources that we have talked to. so the pro programs, the first one, the one first reported, is a program in which the government stores data from the phone companies. and what happens, basically, is the government collects this information on a daily basis and builds up, if you will, a huge tank of data, about all the phone call numbers that have dialed other numbers. it's data about the calls themselves. not the contents, not the names

of the people making the calls. it's all phone number-based. how long the call lasted, where the people were who made the calls and so forth. the government stores the data. and that's the court order that the "guardian" newspaper got its hands on 24 hours ago. now, if the government wants to look at that data, our understanding is that if they have a reason to believe that a phone number they get ahold of -- let's say somebody arrests a terrorist and takes the cell phone and finds that that terrorist has called a bunch of other people, then they take those phone numbers and run them through the database. they do that under a system of rules that this fisa, this foreign intelligence surveillance court has approved, and after they do it, they go back and tell the court what they did. the court monitors that, how that's done. the congress audits it, as well. so that's the phone system. now, the separate thing is one that allows the government to monitor the internet for suspicious e-mail and internet traffic. and according to these reports and officials we have talked to,

it allows the nsa and the fbi to tap directly into some of the computer servers of some of the biggest internet service providers. and then government analysts can monitor that traffic to some extent in real-time, to some extent to go back and look for. the difference is, this program -- one person says it's like standing in the post office and watching out for specific envelopes that go by from parts of the world or people that are deemed to be troublemakers. and it's this program we're told aimed primarily at communications that have an overseas connection. they start overseas and come here or they start here and go overseas. and that's one of the many differences. the other difference is that this internet e-mail program can work in real-time, whereas the telephone program is all looking at past records of phone calls. >> pete, there's been a range of reaction in washington today, including a lot of lack of surprise, i guess i would put it as.

harry reid, senate leader, said everyone should just calm down and understand that this isn't anything brand-new. it's gone on for some seven years. he wasn't surprised about it. and other high-ranking senators indicated they were not surprised about it. they have known about it for a while. what is your sense about how the government is reacting to the leak? how shocked are they that this has gotten out there? >> well, i guess two answers to that question. one, in terms of members of congress, many of them knew about both of these programs. because the federal government has made it very clear that congress has been briefed on these programs and was aware of them. now, it may be that many members were not aware of all of the details, but the law that allows these things to happen, obviously, members of congress approved that law, and certainly members of the intelligence committee are well aware of how these things work. on the other hand, you have the government agencies that carry this out. and they are shocked that these programs have become public. they consider them very

troublesome leaks. they haven't said whether these leaks will trigger a leak investigation. that's where we're a long way from that happening. the intelligence agencies have to ask the justice department to look into it. prosecutor have to do so and decide whether to open an investigation. but it does seem likely, given the really surprising nature of these things. i would be very surprised if there aren't leak investigations. >> pete williams, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> you bet. and joining me now, the man of the hour from a very distant connection, the "guardian's" glen greenwald. i mentioned it's a distant connection because we're going to have a satellite delay in our conversation. pete williams referred to the possibility of investigations. senator dianne feinstein said today she believes this leak -- the first leak we're talking about, the verizon phone calls leak, should be investigated and it's pretty clear that that investigation would have to include you. >> look, let them go and investigate.

there's this document called the constitution, and what one of the things that it guarantees is the right of a free press. which means that as a citizen and journalist, i have the absolute constitutional right to go and report on what it is that my government is doing in the dark, and inform my fellow citizens about that action. there is this massive surveillance state that the united states government has built up that has extraordinary implications for how we live as human beings on the earth and as americans in our country and we have the right to know what it is that that government and that agency is doing. and i intend to continue to shine light on that and dianne feinstein can beat her chest all she wants and call for investigations and none of that is going to stop and none of it is going to change. >> glen, i want you to listen to what lindsey graham had to say today about the verizon phone calls part of what you've been revealing. let's listen to this. >> i'm a verizon customer. it doesn't bother me one bit for the national security

administration to have my phone number. because what they're trying to do is find out what terrorist groups we know about and individuals and who the hell they're calling. and if my number pops up on some terrorist's phone, i'm confident that the fisa court is not going to allow my phone calls to be monitored by my government. >> now, glen, he went a little haywire there at the end, because if his number pops up on a terrorist's phone, he is going to be investigated. that's exactly what they say the point of the program is. but the first part of what he was saying, i think he may be speaking for a lot of americans who say -- i mean, i'm holding my verizon phone in my hand. and i think i've heard a lot of people today say i don't care that they're collecting all of the phone calls i make. you know, the phone company is connecting all of that information anyway. >> well, i mean, i think it's notable that one of the most right wing members of the united states congress is stepping up to be the most vocal defender of what the obama administration is doing and what the bush administration did before that. because at the very right wing mentality.

the idea is that the government should simply know everything that citizens in a free society are doing, regardless of whether there is evidence that we have committed any crimes. there was a huge investigation in the 1970s call the church committee, and what it discovered was that whenever surveillance powers are exercised in the dark, the government lies about the reasons that they're surrender veiling and they abuse that power. they eaves dropped on political leaders like martin luther king and dissidents and opponents of the administration. and the idea that if you have nothing to hide, then there's no reason you should care. people know instinctively that's false. they put passwords on their e-mails, locks on their bedroom doors. there's all kinds of value we have in having privacy as individuals that is destroyed when we allow the government to monitor and store everything that we're doing. but, of course, the lindsay grahams of the world are thrilled with that, because that's the mentality in which this is all rooted. >> glen, you broke last night's story through the british newspaper, the "guardian"

tonight's story, teaming up with "the washington post." tell us about these new developments tonight and the capacity to collect information from google and apple and facebook. >> well, in 2008, the united states congress on a bipartisan basis created a new spying law called the fisa amendments act. and what it did was eliminated the warrant requirement for the u.s. government to eavesdrop on all conversations, except ones between americans domestically. when an american talks to american, you still need a warrant. but otherwise if an american talks to somebody outside the u.s., they don't. and what this program does, and that law was renewed in 2012. what this program is does is, when that law was passed, people said well are we going to prevent abuse if the government doesn't have to go to a court and get a warrant, how do we prevent abuse. and the answer was, don't worry, they still have to go to the internet companies and phone companies and ask for the

records they want and that will be a check on abuse. and this program is a program in which the nsa takes its hands and sticks it directly into the servers of all of these -- internet giants, facebook, google, skype, apple, youtube, that people around the world use to have communications. and let's the nsa grab whatever it is they want. either stored e-mails or real-time communication with nobody looking over their shoulder, nobody watching what they're doing. any analyst in the nsa sitting at a keyboard can at any moment go into the system and listen to whatever he wants, read whatever he wants and then store it. it is extremely menacing. and there are no checks. this is how the world communicates, and the nsa is monitoring it at all times. >> glen greenwald, thank you very much for joining us on this night where you're breaking this major news. thank you very much, glen. coming up, chris christie said it would be irresponsible for a governor to spend $10 million on a special senate election in october before he scheduled a special senate election in october.

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something that god intended to happen. >> in the spotlight tonight, the republican party continues to be the party of, quote, narrow-minded, out of touch and stuffy old men. that is how the republican party chairman described the party he leads back in march. and this week an all-male group of republicans on a house judiciary subcommittee voted to ban all abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy. democrat john conyers who voted against the bill, said no good has ever come from an all-male committee deciding the law about a woman's body. this is not appropriate. earlier that same day at a "washington post" event on education and children's literacy, mississippi governor phil bryant said this in response to a question about why the country is so mediocre. >> you want me to tell the truth? can i tell the truth?

you know, i think parents became -- both parents started working. and the mom is in the workplace. it's not a bad thing. i'm going get in trouble, i can just see. i can see the e-mails tomorrow. >> governor bryant, whose wife was a working mother and whose own mother was a working mother for at least part of his childhood, then added -- >> but now both parents are working, they're pursuing their careers, it's a great american story now that women are certainly in the workplace. >> so it's the mother's place to teach them to read? >> no, no, no. but i think there was that loving, nurturing opportunity that both parents had a little bit of time. >> joy reid, i listened to the governor, and he is saying, oh, no, no, no. women working is great. >> yeah. >> what was he saying? i mean, it was like -- i got what he thought was good. >> yeah. >> what did he think wasn't good? and i don't -- >> it's kind of hard to tell. because, you know what, you find that when these guys start to

talk, because you can see he felt he was in trouble so you saw him immediately starting to dig out. i think that you have -- >> he was alert enough to know. when a republican man starts talking about women -- >> not good. >> he's in trouble. but he didn't know, like, where he was going or what trouble he might get in. >> and he had a hard time extricating himself because he wasn't exactly quite sure what the briar patch consisted of. what he was doing is pining for a past they saw on television when they were kids. they believe that this sort of old black and white tv version of america was the better america. you know, the america where gosh darn it, mom was home and the kids could rely on her to have her apron on and cook them a nice meal and teach them how to read, when you could pray in school and all of the things they think would make america a better place. but they confronted constantly with the modern world in the form of their wives and daughters. some go to work because they want to, not because they have to. a world in which women get to run for office and be the boss sometimes at work. and all of these things that are jarring to them personally.

but they don't quite know how to explain. >> you know what else was great about that old world? women were school teachers. because they were frequently not allowed to be anything else. and the ruth bader ginsburgs of 50 years ago were school principals and school teachers, teaching those kids to read. >> yeah. no, and i also think that a lot of this is partly competition in the work force. to be honest with you, i think one of the things that has been upsetting to a lot of men, particularly after this man session where you had this recession heavily concentrated on male unemployment, is this idea that now men are not just nurturing wives, marrying, having kids with them. they're competing with them in the workplace. and this makes a lot of guys uncomfortable and i do think you still have an obsession. it is on obsession on the right with controlling women, controlling their fertility. controlling them and making sure that, you know, everything they do has a man kind of at the head of it, making the decision.

it is an obsession and they need to get over it, if they're ever going to move forward as a party. >> one of their obsessions as a party is abortion. and the problem is, women having abortions and they just seem to then push out from that into -- into kind of aiming blame at women in very strange situations. >> yeah. and if you look around the world, one of the ways in which a country gets to be a first world sort of economy is by women having more control over their fertility, over their own bodies, over reproduction, being able to limit the number of children. this is sort of common to economists around the world. this is the way that you advance a society, is by having women have more autonomy. what you have in the ultimate first world country, the united states, is a group of men who are trying to push women backward, and try to take away their autonomy, give it back to men, give men more control over the economy, more control over the household, more control over the women. it is so odd and anachronistic, but this is what is happening. >> joy reid, thank you very much for explaining republican men's

attitude. republican-elected officials' attitude towards women. i don't know if we're ever going to figure that out. thank you, joy. >> thanks. coming up, chris christie was opposed to paying for special elections before he was in favor of paying for it. and the urban legend, rudy guiliani is in the rewrite tonight. he has once again provoked me to remind you how much damage that man did to new york on 9/11. i don't like to golf.

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there were other things that didn't help my campaign, either. obviously, a hurricane with a week to go before the election stalled our campaign. but, you know, you don't -- >> do you blame chris christie as much as some other people? >> no, i wish the hurricane hadn't happened when it did, because it gave the president a chance to be presidential and be out showing sympathy for folks. that's one of the advantages of incumbency. >> did you see how the happy idiot with the smile said i wish the hurricane didn't happen when it did? i wish the hurricane never happened. never killed any of those people. his objection is just to the scheduling of the hurricane. the rewrite is next.

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here is urban legend, rudy guiliani pretending last night back in his days as mayor of new york he was a successful terrorism fighter. >> i truly believe that if competent decisions were made, the four people in benghazi who are now dead would now be alive, and i'm not just talking about that night. i'm talking about in the six months before that. i believe that political necessities trumped sensible security decisions. there is no possible way, if i had found out for six months that one of my police precincts was being attacked i would deprive of it security. and if i did, there is no possible way the new york press corps would let me get away with it. >> no possible way. no. no. you know, the fact that rudy guiliani was an unwitting

accomplice of al qaeda's has mostly escaped attention outside of new york which is why guiliani was in boston today campaigning with republican senate candidate gabriel gomez at the location of the boston marathon bombing. for the moment, never mind the depravity of guiliani and gomez using the boston marathon location as a political campaign stop. let's tonight focus on the decisions rudy guiliani made that killed firefighters on 9/11. here's what happened when guiliani tried to play his super hero role while testifying to the 9/11 commission in new york city. >> murdered! >> that was the mother of a new york city firefighter who was telling guiliani that her son was murdered because of guiliani's incompetence. the world trade center was

attacked in 1993. the bombing killed six people and injured more than a thousand. a report issued later showed that the firefighters' radios did not work when they responded to that first attack on the world trade center eight years would have 9/11. guiliani took seven years to replace those radios. and he did it through a sweetheart deal with a no-bid contract. six months before 9/11, guiliani replaced the defective radios with a new set of radios that also did not work. >> at 9:32 a.m. on september 11th, chief conlon ordered all fdny members in the north tower to the lobby. he repeated the command, but not a single company answered. at 9:59, the south tower collapsed. >> mayday, trapped in the rubble! >> fdny's chief phifer repeated

the order for all units to evacuate the north tower. firefighters had 56 minutes after the first call, and 29 minutes after the second order to get out. while all police officers left the building, 129 firefighters never made it out. >> that day my son was working. and they didn't hear the call. 121 guys didn't hear the call in the north tower to get out. and they -- and the police officers heard it, because their radios worked. and ours didn't. >> the 9/11 commission, which included politician friends of rudy guiliani, concluded a technical failure of fdny radios was a contributing factor to many of the firefighter fatalities in the north tower. now, there is an official finding that rudy guiliani's gross incompetencies and possible corruption in awarding a no-bid contract cost firefighters their lives. guiliani has never apologized.

and he has more to apologize for than just that. he made more contributions to the chaos of 9/11. he violated every professional recommendation about where to locate the emergency command and control center, the professionals wanted to locate it in brooklyn, out of the way of potential terrorism targets. guiliani, against everyone recommendation, decided to actually locate it in the world trade center, because he wanted it to be within walking distance of city hall, both for him and for the media, he hoped, would follow him there in any situation so he could be on camera as much as he loved being on camera. he was warned by his police commissioner not to locate the world trade center, which -- in that -- not to locate the emergency command center at the world trade center, because the commissioner already was calling that ground zero. because of the prior attack by al qaeda on the world trade center. but rudy guiliani ignored him.

>> i was down there on 9/11 that day. i've seen police detectives yelling in the streets we told him not to put it here. you know? because that was -- the target of the terrorists. >> mayor guiliani was running on the street, and he was talking to the media instead of being in a controlled environment. >> and today rudy guiliani was walking on the street where the boston marathon bombing occurred. talking to the media. there was probably no one on that street who knew what guiliani did to add to the death toll on 9/11. but new york firefighters and their families will never forget. >> the things that we needed to do our job even better, we didn't have. because of his administration. >> so ultimately, the mayor of new york at the time, mr. guiliani, he has to bear these responsibilities. >> and i blame guiliani.

he was the leader that day and he was the leader for eight years leading up to that. >> i wish i could put him on the stand where he would have to put his hand on the bible and swear to tell the truth. you hurt my feelings, todd.

i did? when visa signature asked everybody what upgraded experiences really mattered... you suggested luxury car service instead of "strength training with patrick willis." come on todd! flap them chicken wings. [ grunts ] well, i travel a lot and umm... [ male announcer ] at visa signature, every upgraded experience comes from listening to our cardholders. visa signature. your idea of what a card should be. what are you up to, christie? >> big democratic turnout for booker could help christie's opened.

>> that is such a self-serving corrupt abuse of power. i miss new jersey so much! [ laughter ] [ cheers and applause ] >> it's just hard to see corrupt abuse of power and not think about home. [ laughter ] >> up next, more with the jersey boys. jon stewart and chris christie. in that time there've been some good days. and some difficult ones. but, through it all we've persevered, supporting some of the biggest ideas in modern history. so why should our history matter to you? because for more than two centuries, we've been helping ideas move from ambition to achievement. ♪ and the next great idea could be yours. ♪

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[ laughter ] >> the governor, who was for election austerity before he was against it, announced this today. >> i tend to appoint new jersey state attorney general jeff chiesa, has chosen not to seek the office of united states senate. he will not be a candidate in the primary or general election. >> the attorney general then said this about his politics. >> this is all pretty new. and i need to learn about the issues in a way before i can make any meaningful judgments on the specifics. i'm a conservative republican. i would say generally speaking. >> and today governor christie continued to face questions on his very expensive taste in election scheduling. >> we would have been sued for 2014. a $12 million cost, while not

insubstantial is, i don't think, something in the context of a $32 billion budget. something that should dissuade us from giving people an opportunity to get an elected united states senator down there as quickly as we can. >> okay. but steve , he didn't say why he didn't fold this into the governor's race which happens three weeks later. he was explaining here's why we're not going to do it over a year later. >> and he'll never explain why because it's a self-serving explanation and the explanation is it's a little bit wanting to pad his own margin in the governor's race. he wants to make it as high as possible. what is really is, new jersey republicans have an opportunity, they really never get in new jersey. and that is with no senate race, with only the governor's race on the ballot, they're going to be winning the top of the ticket race by a very substantial margin in the governor's race. in every single candidate for the state legislature runs underneath chris christie. so coat tails for republicans of new jersey, a very new and rare concept for representatives of new jersey.

christie sees an opportunity to get a lot more friends in the legislature if he's the top of the ticket. >> i heard he picked the attorney general, okay, that makes sense, a statewide elected official. except in new jersey, it ain't. they don't all like their attorney general. so he's a man of mystery. and there he is, saying i'm a conservative republican. what does that mean in new jersey? >> well, in new jersey, a conservative republican, you are about to see a conservative republican, because chiesa is not going to be running for the seat, and because of the very truncated timetable, because it's not on the ballot with christie, no other serious heavyweight republican wants to be in this race. there is only one candidate at this point, looks like only one candidate on the republican side. his name is steve lonegan, the conservative opponent in the 2000 republican primary. my first exposure -- one of the first things i remember about steve lonegan on martin luther king day, he held an event in newark, new jersey to stage his

opposition to affirmative action. he chose that day, that setting, that street to do that. that was -- that is where steve lonegan is coming from, active in the anti immigration side. >> how is the guy going to vote in the senate between now and october? >> it's a mystery. i think, you know, basically if there is an issue that christie really wants him to be leaning one way or the other on, he'll probably go that way. otherwise, i think he's pretty much looking at a party line guy. >> even with this party that's run by mitch mcconnell in a way that most people in new jersey don't like. >> yeah, i mean, i think this is something where christie is clearly not looking to make noise with this. so i think the idea is, here is to send somebody down probably not going to be noticed that much between here and october. now, if something were to come up like earlier this year when sandy aid became a big issue in washington and christie wanted to make a show of it, there is a senator who would be willing to go along with whatever christie would need in a battle like that. but otherwise, i don't think this is a senator going to stand out in any way. >> steve kornacki, the last

word's senior new jersey political analyst. >> good week for that title. >> thank you, steve. knowledge is power. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start tonight with this story that the national security agency has been collecting information on our phone calls. who's calling who, and for how long. this is a good, important debate i think. we need to be vigilant about what kind of stuff the government's collecting and decide if it's truly helpful to catching terrorists. especially and ideally before they attack. we need a find a balance between doing too much of this and not doing what should be done to protect ourselves.