>> never fear me. good afternoon, it's friday, june the 7th. and the president says have no fear, there is no big brother watching you. ♪ >> shocking news. >> we all are afraid of big brother. >> big brother is spying on all of us. >> now with obama, we actually have a brother watching us. >> nobody is is listening to your telephone. >> does the nsa collect any type of data? >> no, sir. >> there is this massive surveillance state. >> this program is fully overseen not just by congress, but by the fisa court. the fisa court works. separation of powers works. >> what could be a far more explosive government program. >> with respect to the internet. this does not apply to u.s. citizens. >> unlike during the bush administration -- >> the illegal eavesdropping program. >> -- it's the obama administration. >> there are some tradeoffs. >> he is always trying to outdo his predecessor.

>> this program was used to stop a terrorist attack in the united states. we know that. >> i just assumed the nsa is listening. >> we're going to have to make some choices. good afternoon. it is a busy friday, and we begin with breaking news in southern california. there is an active shooting situation at santa monica college. nbc news confirms at least one victim down. the condition of that victim is unknown. and now nbc news has confirmed the shooter is also down. we will continue to watch developments as they come in. the incident comes a few hours before the president will meet with his chinese counterpart nearby in california to discuss a range of critically important issues from human rights and north korea, to the crime of cyber hacking that has seen vast amounts of american property stolen by the chinese. but interestingly enough, it is

the american government's digital activities in the war on terror that has stolen the headlines. with the president this afternoon in california offering a vigorous defense of how these programs are not only important, but legal and limited. >> the modest encroachments on the privacy that are involved in getting phone numbers or duration without a name attached and not looking at content on, you know, net, it was worth us doing. >> the president was responding to new revelations about two programs called prism and blarney that allow the government to access any individual's internet activity. this includes their interface with some of the internet's most famous brands. the revelation follows the news yesterday that the government has access to phone call

metadata which does not include actual conversations, but instead, things like the time, place, location of when a phone call has taken place. collectively, these programs reveal the extent to which the national security agency can reach into our digital lives. and the president, himself, admitted that when he first came into office, he, too, was skeptical about this level of surveillance, but he's now convinced that it is necessary. >> you can't have 100% security and also then have 100% privacy and zero inconvenience. we're going to have to make some choices as a society. >> and while there are some republicans in addition to the allies of the president who are not pleased with this defense, the president repeatedly insisted that these measures represent the consensus of opinion of all three branches of

government. >> in some way, what you've got is two programs that were originally authorized by congress. congress is continually briefed on how these are conducted. there are a whole range of safeguards involved. and federal judges are overseeing the entire program throughout. >> however, nbc's michael isikoff is now reporting the nsa has accidentally intercepted the private messages and phone calls of americans who had no connection to terrorism whatsoever. while some republicans are defending the nsa programs, others are decidedly not. >> this is a big deal. a really big deal. i want to find out why they've decided to have such a broad brush to bring in everybody, and if we have to amend the patriot act before 2015 to stop this from happening, i am all for doing that, and i'm the author of the act. >> let's get right to our panel. with us is karen finney, star of

msnbc's newest weekend show "disrupt with karen finney. the" which premieres tomorrow at 4:00 p.m., pit which of course e best time slot of any day. and dana milbank, "washington post," and "saturday night live." good afternoon to both of you. karen, the president had strong points today about leaks. on the specific issue of digital surveillance, he said the government's programs are legal and they're limited. do you think he made the sale? >> i think he did, although the problem is that there's always going to be more kind of dribbling out which is, as michael isikoff reported. that's really where the issue is. the question is, do you trust president obama? we didn't trust president bush because we knew he was doing warrantless wiretapping and who knows what else. >> also he took the nation into a war and lied about weapons of mass destruction. >> and a few other things. >> right. >> you know, i guess the thing about this, i sort of have to laugh at some of these republicans now criticizing

president obama, because they were perfectly fine with the process under president bush where there was no fisa court, there was no process or procedure. >> completely warrantless wiretapping. >> absolutely. there was no outrage back then, by the way. this is the process democrats fought for and said we wanted back then. i feel like you heard a little bit of that frustration in the president's voice. >> dana, john mayer of the "new yorker" has an online piece. the crux of it is it reveals much more about a person's life than we may realize. for instance, a software engineer tells her that "metadata can be so revalatory about whom reporters talk to get sensitive stories it can make more traditional tools and search warrants and subpoenas look quaint. you can see the sources," the engineer says. dana, do you agree with the engineer that these were modest encroachments and worth us doing? >> the problem is, how can any of us decide whether we disagree or agree with the president?

we have no idea how widespread these programs are. what we've heard about the internet providers and about verizon may just be the tip of the iceberg. basically the president is saying, take a look at this, trust me. and we certainly didn't trust it under president bush for very good reason. these reforms were put in place. it appears this has now mushrooms and metastasized in some way that needs to be -- >> dana, he isn't just saying trust me, is he? he's also saying congress has access to all of this. there have been subsequent amendments to the fisa legislation, and there has been an oversight ongoing, albeit completely in secret. but he isn't just saying -- >> that's the problem. you have, like senator wyden, senator udall saying we have a problem with this because we know exactly what's going on here, and americans would be stunned to know it, but we're not allowed to talk about. now, the krcriticism, john myer is a legitimate one about reports. it's not just that.

it's lawyers and their clients, doctors and patients, priests and parishioners. it's lawmakers and judges. we have no idea how much information this government is collecting about us and there's no way really for us to find out. >> i think part of the problem, this is something i think is a much larger question we have to ask ourselves. do you really think when google is marketing things to you based on what you're typing in your g-mail e-mails that they're also not collecting data on you? i mean, private u.s. companies have been doing this for a very long time. and they use it to microtarget to you to sell you things. >> they place cookies on your instrument at home, your computer. >> that's right. i think we have a broader question in terms of how much our world has changed and how much is knowable that we think is private but really is not private. >> right. okay. well, the president personalized the kind of anxieties that many of us feel, and we all feel this, about this kind of su surveillance. take a listen to what he said. >> i will leave this office at some point. some time in the next 3 1/2 years. and after that i will be a

private citizen. and i suspect that, you know, on a list of people who might be targeted, you know, so that somebody could read their e-mails or listen to their phone calls, i'd probably be pretty high on that list. it's not as if i don't have a personal interest in making sure my privacy is protected. >> dana, isn't the problem here that conspiracy will always flourish when transparency is diminished? >> i think that's exactly right. and you know what, maybe you feel this way, i'm more inclined to trust obama based on what he's done in office than what president bush was doing in terms of the law. the problem is, once you get these precedents if place, we don't know who's going to be in charge next and that's what's so dangerous about this. it creates this whole idea of a government operating in secrecy. maybe this administration can be trusted to be responsible about it, but we'll never know, and a

future administration that's not inclined to be responsible about it will say, well, heck, the last guy did it, i can take it just one step further. >> isn't that what the president has been reflecting throughout, though, on this issue? >> sure. >> each time. during the campaign, he was talking about the fact that if mitt romney became president, who knows what he would do with this kind of power. >> right. and then they said oh my gosh, we better put together a policy on drones just in case something happens. >> right. that's dana's point, isn't it. >> absolutely, it is. again, i tgo to this larger point, we have to realize that's the world we now live in. we can't put the genie back in the bottle if you will. technology has gotten so much further ahead of us. private corporations have been doing this for a long time. if we're uncomfortable with it, now is the time to have that conversation. it's not going to get any better because, again, i think technology is only going to get better. >> do you afree with that, dana? >> i do. let's have that debate out in public. the only reason we know this is because of leaks. the very leaks this administration is trying to stop. let's get this information out

there and decide this as a democracy. that's what we are. >> absolutely. thank you so much, karen finney and dana milbank. we note with great excitement that karen, herself, launches her own program this weekend. the same miss finney that cut her anchor chops right here in this seat on our broadcast. take a look. >> oh, no. >> a newly named anchor here on msnbc. >> wangdang sweet putan. >> karen finney, and richard wolffe, a man. >> a man who loves women. martin, i'm not going there. >> i could get into some difficulties. >> you know, aside from all -- >> try not to use an expletive. >> i won't. i won't. i promise. i promise. i've taken a deep breath. martin, are you -- come on. i'm sure it is a great work of fiction. hmm, what does that tell us? krystal and i were in a backroom most of the weekend scheming. >> i'm so glad you admit that. that's the game. >> right. that's the game. >> and the show is called "disrupt with karen finney." as i said, it debuts at 4:00

p.m. right here on msnbc. i have a little card from myself and my production team. >> thank you. >> and we send our best wishes. i know it's going to be a huge success. >> thanks so much for your support. >> absolutely. i'm looking forward to 5% of your salary. coming up, the same old job story. another month of growth. can't we do better than this, congress? stay with us. oh, he's a fighter alright. since aflac is helping with his expenses while he can't work, he can focus on his recovery. he doesn't have to worry so much about his mortgage, groceries, or even gas bills. kick! kick... feel it! feel it! feel it! nice work! ♪ you got it! you got it! yes! aflac's gonna help take care of his expenses. and us...we're gonna get him back in fighting shape. ♪ [ male announcer ] see what's happening behind the scenes at ducktherapy.com. [ male announcer ] see what's happening behind the scenes everybody has different ideas, goals, appetite for risk.

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helps him deposit his checks. jay also like it when mother nature helps him wash his car. mother nature's cool like that. citibank mobile check deposit. easier banking. standard at citibank. we are following breaking news. there is an active shooting situation at santa monica college. nbc news confirms as many as three victims shot. their conditions are unknown. nbc news has also confirmed one shooter is down. and they are making sure that there are no additional suspects

involved. we'll obviously update you as developments come to us. but now to the economy. the may jobs numbers are in, and they're actually a little better than economists had been expecting. 175,000 new jobs have been added which is almost exactly the monthly average for the past year. the unemployment rate ticked up very sliktly to 7 .6%. wall street seemed very pleased closing out the week on an up note above the is15,000 point l. the report comes on the heels of a poll this week that found 39% of americans feel the condition of the economy is either very good or fairly good. the highest percentage since the current president took office in january 2009. for more, i'm joined by congressman adam schiff, a democrat from california. good afternoon, sir. >> good afternoon. >> 175,000 jobs added, which reflects the slow but steady climb out of the recession. and, yet, we lost 45,000 government jobs in the past

three months. can you imagine how much better things might be if speaker boehner allowed himself a conference on a budget and thereby we could do away with the sequester? >> they would be a lot better. it really is criminal that we have this policy in place that is dampening our economic recovery. even at the modest job growth that we've seen, it's going to take another five years to get back to where we were r befobefe recession. if we could cut that in time, cut that by half or even more, and we don't because we want to go through and double down on this failed sequestration strategy, that's just terrible. we ought to be investing in things that will create jobs. we saw, martin, just last week, another tragic bridge collapse. one of just hundreds of bridges around the country that are equal state of decrepitude and collapse.

we need the jobs. instead of laying people off. furloughing probably hundreds of thousands of people are going to be furloughed in the coming weeks and months. >> right. >> all of this when we should be growing jobs, not shrinking them. >> speaker boehner released a scintillating statement only the jobs report earlier today where he said "today's modest jobs growth is a positive" -- to be perfectly honest, i can't bother to read it. it's the same old garbage we see every single time this happens. this is the kind of gibberish the speaker spouts from his tanning bed at the end of each month but he's done absolutely nothing to strengthen the economy. the only thing he appears to be interested in in the moment is who's going to jail at the irs. >> well, unfortunately, as one of my former colleagues put it, he's not running the republican conference, he's running one step ahead of the mob. he has to deal with this unruly part of his conference happy to default on our debt, that is happy with the sequester, that really doesn't care anything about trying to govern in a positive way, merely wants to

tear it down. and unfortunately tearing down is exactly what they're doing. we're seeing, you know, the impact on our employment and our economy, the dampening impact of the sequester, but what many americans are not seeing are the invisible impacts as people in the safety net are really at jeopardy because we might cure the more risible problems like air traffic controllers, but people trying to get their kids into head start are not going to get their kids in head start and people trying to find housing they can't afford it are not going to find housing. those are some of the most dire impacts of the sequester. >> yeah. and you must'nt forget the 4 million elderly people who will be very soon losing their meals on wheels provision. the president was in -- >> exactly. >> -- california nearby earlier today as you know, where he spoke about the affordable care act. take a listen. >> you can listen to a bunch of political talk out there. negative ads and fear mongering geared toward the next election. or alternatively, you can actually look what's happening in states like california right

now. >> meanwhile, a new poll finds that 49% of people feel the affordable care act is a bad idea. is it your opinion, sir, that this is based on the real numbers? or is it simply a failure on the part of the administration in explaining to the american people exactly how beneficial the affordable care act can be? >> well, i think the responsibility is shared. it's not only the administration, but those of us in congress i think haven't done a very good job in getting the word out about how the affordable care act is going to operate and in particular, one of the best features which are the health insurance exchanges that allow individuals and small employers to basically get the bulk purchasing power of millions of others to buy plans at affordable rates, and in fact, what we're seeing in california is the overwhelming majority of plans participating in health insurance exchanges and the premiums that are being projected are very reasonable. so the doomsayers and the naysayers who are saying that rates are going to skyrocket,

that is not proving to be the case in california. we're not only going to have plans that have better coverage and affordable better coverage, but also people with pre-existing conditions for the first time may actually be able to get insurance again. >> yeah. that's a real achievement. shifting gears, again, sir, are you at all confident that we'll see an immigration bill any time soon? or has that also been lost to republican belligerence? because we're hearing that marco rubio is now suggesting a level of ambivalence about whether that proposal by the gang of eight will go through the senate. and if it gets to the house, who knows what will happen. >> well, i'm still optimistic that we'll get a bill out of the senate, and i hope that the democrats in the senate can hold the line and make sure that the path to citizenship maintains -- is a real path and not just a fictional one. when it gets to the house, that's when the rough road is going to take place. we're going to get to the rough road. we saw that just this week, martin, when the republicans

offered an amendment to basically try to deport the dreamers, to roll back any funding for the president's program of deferring action on the dreamers. the dream act is one of the, frankly, one of the easiest pieces of immigration reform. one of the most popular pieces. and if even that gets voted down by the house gop, it does put the passage of comprehensive reform in question. i think probably, martin, the only way this gets passed is if the senate bill gets taken up without amendment in the house ultimately, and it passes in violation of the has tert rule with a majority of democratic support. >> as it always does when speaker boehner's in charge or not in charge. congressman adam schiff, sir, thank you. >> thank you, martin. coming up, caution. vladimir putin, the world's most interesting man, back on the singles scene. i think farmers care more about the land than probably anyone else. we've had this farm for 30 years.

we raise black and red angus cattle. we also produce natural gas. that's how we make our living and that's how we can pass the land and water back to future generations. people should make up their own mind what's best for them. all i can say is it has worked well for us. to prove to you that aleve is the better choice for him, he's agreed to give it up. that's today? [ male announcer ] we'll be with him all day as he goes back to taking tylenol. i was okay, but after lunch my knee started to hurt again. and now i've got to take more pills. ♪ yup. another pill stop. can i get my aleve back yet? ♪ for my pain, i want my aleve. ♪ [ male announcer ] look for the easy-open red arthritis cap.

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we thought a little public service announcement might be in order physical lowing the news that the russian president, all-time action man, vladimir putin, is getting divorced after almost 30 years of marriage. in what seemed like a carefully choreographed announcement, a nervous interviewer suggested to the russian president and his wife that they might no longer be living together. [ speaking foreign language ] >> the 60-year-old president said it's true, and went on to explain that the demands of political office had placed inordinate pressures on his marriage. by now, the interviewer's confidence had grown and so she decided to go for broke. forgive me, she said, i'm frightened to say the word, but is this a divorce? yes, said mr. putin. and the interview came to an

abrupt end. although the divorce rate in russia hovers around 50%, the citizens of that nation are not used to seeing marital breakup within the ce within. however, the president has made this public announcement, he'll be able to use whatever free time he has engaging his favorite pastimes including bare chested horse riding in siberia, shooting targets at russia's defense intelligence gun range, riding his harley davidson across the uerel mountains after the hell's angels gave him membership. and scuba diving for archaeologist, though a spokesman later admitted the expedition was staged. despite rumors mr. putin may have been having an affair, the demands of the presidency and his vast array of extracurricular activities suggest that for once a politician's denial of infidelity may actually be true. we extend our good wishes to both parties as they go their

separate ways. stay with us. the romney clan is back. and better than ever in today's top lines. >> i wish the hurricane hadn't had happened when it did because it gave the president a chance to be presidential and to be out showing sympathy for folks. there are 47% of the people. before tori was taking her kids to lunch in her new volkswagen... before her passat had passed over 30 different inspection tests... and before several thousand tennesseans discovered new jobs on volkswagen drive, a cfo and a banker met for lunch. together, we worked with a team that helped finance construction of the world's first leed platinum auto manufacturing plant. that's the impact of global connections. that's bank of america. peoi go to angie's listt for to gauge whether or not

the projects will be done in a timely fashion and within budget. angie's list members can tell you which provider is the best in town. you'll find reviews on everything from home repair to healthcare. now that we're expecting, i like the fact that i can go onto angie's list and look for pediatricians. the service providers that i've found on angie's list actually have blown me away. join today and find out why over 1 million members count on angie's list. angie's list -- reviews you can trust. theit's four times the sony 4k tv, it wasdetail of hd. my eyes. colors become richer. details become clearer. which for a filmmaker, changes everything. because now there are no more barriers between the world that i see and the ones i can show you. the sony 4k ultra hd tv.

i've always had to keep my eye on her... but, i didn't always watch out for myself.

with so much noise about health care... i tuned it all out. with unitedhealthcare, i get information that matters... my individual health profile. not random statistics. they even reward me for addressing my health risks. so i'm doing fine... but she's still going to give me a heart attack. we're more than 78,000 people looking out for more than 70 million americans. that's health in numbers. unitedhealthcare. from a paid liar, to the biggest terror war wrrior in to here are today's top lines. are you employed, mr. romney? >> if you are a verizon custer in. >> i'm a verizon customer. >> americans who have verizon telephone services are being spied upon by the national security agency. >> i don't mind verizon turning over records to the government. >> they know who you called, when you called, and how long you stayed on the phone. >> bill's on a tear.

>> i am often in a fog, pat. >> is this -- what day is this? >> i welcome the opportunity to correct the record, especially for some news outlets who persist in misrepresenting the facts. >> peaked in fiscal year 2007. excuse me, in 1987. >> right. >> you believe that ohio has been settled? >> no, i don't. >> we -- we -- >> i'm sorry. 2007. that's wrong. >> karl rove, i like your new whiteboard. >> their bapaid liar. >> has darrell issa gone too far? >> you talk about fascism. you're getting damn close. >> ah, fascist. >> i'm the biggest terror warrior in town. >> i don't care if you snoop on me. >> b.s. you know what b.s. stands for. >> i work 100 hour weeks, sean. >> b.s. >> are you over it? >> yeah, yeah. i mean -- >> i am over it. >> do you blame chris crist christie? >> i don't know what the cost is and i frankly don't care. >> i wish the hurricane didn't happen when it did. you don't look back and worry

about each other thing. >> it's important we look back. >> fly from tripoli to come in to benghazi. why? why was the mistake made? >> are you employed, sir? >> you don't look back and worry about each little thing. >> our life is pretty wonderful right now. >> romney sits on the sidelines now hoping to mentor the next batch of republican presidential hopefuls. >> jokes, for instance, will get you in trouble. no one's asked to see my birth certificate. they know this is the place. >> politics is the fastest way to go from who's who to who's that. let's get right to our panel. joining us now is writer and median, lizz winstead, co-founder of the "the daily show." and more recently author of "lizz free or die." we're also joined by professor james peterson, director of africana studies at lehigh university. lizz, welcome. this is wyour first appearance n our broadcast. >> we. >> mitt romney shoeholding a su in park city, utah, right now with heavy hitters, chris christie, paul ryan, and rand paul. what can mitt romney teach them about running for president?

>> i think showing up at the mitt romney summit is sort of the fastest way to be the nobody of tomorrow. >> the nobody of tomorrow. >> i think. i mean, all of these people, these big, you know, maybe 2016 people, we all know they're not winning. paul ryan is not winning. paul ryan's ideas have been voted on constantly in congress. i mean, paul ryan's budget is so bad that nuns rented a bus to chase him down to tell him how awful he was. and they're looking at him as some sort of future of the party. >> true story. >> remember, though, he did outsprint them by achieving a marathon time below three hours. professor peterson, i don't know about you, but i personally value mr. romney's reflections on the 2012 campaign. here's what he says about the biggest problem that confronted him during the ordeal. take a listen. >> there were things that didn't help my campaign, either. obviously a hurricane with a week to go before the election stalled our campaign. >> do you blame chris christie as much as some other people in your -- >> no, no.

i wish the hurricane hadn't have happened when it did because it gave the president a chance to be presidential and be out showing sympathy for folks. that's one of the advantages of incumbency. >> professor peterson, he says the hurricane hurt him. it actually hurt half a million people in new jersey. shouldn't mitt romney have stopped speaking after he gave his concession speech in november? >> i think you and i would agree that, yes, he has obviously a lot of questions how relevant he's going to be the future of the republican party, anyway. i would say not so relevant. clearly it's these kinds of comments that got him into trouble so much on the campaign trail. i mean, how can you talk about -- we've seen shots of the coast of new jersey. remember, people are still hurting from that, martin. they're still recovering from that. we're still trying to get the economy back together in new jersey. >> there are people in new jersey living in their cars and in hotels. >> exactly. all he can do is essentially politicize the weather here. so i don't really understand how mitt romney sort of come cos ba

into the public sphere without making the kind of adjustments that were absolutely seen to be very, very obvious coming out of the presidential campaign. >> lizz, mr. romney describes the president's ability to show sympathy, as, quote, i'm quoting him, "one of the advantages of incumbency." isn't it also the advantage of personality? >> oh, maybe humanity. let's go with humanity. >> compassion. yes. >> i don't know. i think when you can be compassionate, it's not just of the luck of being elected to something. i think that that was mitt romney's problem all along. and when you watched karl rove and crossroads gps and all these people throwing so much money at candidates, the one thing that mitt romney reminds us of profoundly by losing is you can got purchase authenticity and he hates that. and that's just true. >> and he's got plenty of money. if anyone could have bought authenticity, h he had it. >> that's right. >> professor, last week mr. romney told the "wall street journal" one of his main pastimes now is advising his

sons on their business decisions. for example, he's been helping his son, tag, with his private equity firm, solomire capital. there are lots of other romney boys who need advice, professor. josh romney, for example, he's not ruling out a future run for elected office. there he is. so what we've got here is really an embarrassment of romneys, i guess. what do you think, professor? >> well, martin, i want to know which romney is over at the secret conference going on outside of london right now. obviously this josh romney story is an important run, not only because he's talking about running or not running, but more because he's going to sort of throw the romney weight. that's really the romney pursestrings to other donors behind mia love who's actually a pretty important candidate for the republicans in the utah congress race. it will be interesting to see how romney plays politics going forward. but obviously he can to longer be a front man. >> isn't it true, lizz, romney's central love is money? >> it's exactly right. when you look at someone like

romney who has so much money who the only question anyone ever asks them sis, are you going to run, is josh going to run, is tag going to run? you look at somebody like bill gates or warren buffett, a zillion the zillionaire, they give their fortunes away before they die because they want to do good in the world. >> lizz winstead, you speak truth. professor james peterson, so do you. coming up, virginia is for lovers? you know you're going to love their candidate for lieutenant governor. >> i have no problem saying this even though it's offended many people. the idea that barack obama is a christian is laughable. >> thank you. i keep saying that. thank you. [ snoring ] ♪ [ snoring ] [ male announcer ] zzzquil™ sleep-aid. [ both snoring ]

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homosexuality is a sin in the sight of gone and an

abomination in the sight of god. >> it is time to come out and refuse to vote for a party that has declared war on christianity and the church and sided with the enemies of israel. >> sir, what should we do with obama care? >> let's fix it. >> that felt good. >> that fine fellow splitting the melleons is not gallagher, is mr. e.w. jackson. if you live in virginia, he wants to be your next lieutenant governor. if you live anywhere else, he wants to be your next todd akin. mr. jackson is a subject of a fascinating new profile in yt national review." we're delighted to have the author of that great piece with us, betsy woodruff. welcome. >> thanks for having any. >> let me start with a passage you quote in the article, mr. jackson links yoga, yoga with satanism. "when one hears the word meditation it conjures an image of maharishi yoga talking about

finding a mantra and striving forrer er inirvana, to empty o self. satan is happy to invade the empty vacuum of your soul and possess it." you've met him. is this standard behavior for him, suggesting that quiet con telllation and meditation may, indeed, open the door to satan? >> e.w. jackson is a man of very strong religious conviction, and his arguments, what he believes about meditation, aren't unique to him. there are other christian leaders who have made the same argument. so when he says this, he is being sincere. yoga designed toward emptying the mind. >> are you being serious? >> yeah, he does believe this. >> on what basis evidently that it invites satan into the soul? >> there's no room for a vacuum spiritually speaking, if you

manage to empty your soul, satan will fill that vacuum. in other words, you can't have only -- you're going to have either god or satan. you can't have neither. his argument would be that the kind of meditation that's designed to sort of empty the self is impossible. >> okay. mr. jackson has some very interesting ideas, as you say, about faith. and particularly about giving to the poor. in his book, which, again, you quote, he writes "those invested in god's market are going to reap a windfall. make up your mind now to buy in." here's another passage. "while giving to the poor is important, the most powerful giving for wealth building is upward giving." does this not sound suspiciously like those religious snake oil salesmen who promise you riches if only you donate your money to their ministry? >> yeah, the term typically used to describe this is the prosperity gospel which is an idea if you support people who are doing god's work that when god blesses them, you'll be bart of that blessing that's poured out. an interesting thing about jackson's church, inside the

bulletin there was an envelope with a list of areas to which you could designate your donation and one of the things was jackson's birthday celebration, another was to send bishop jackson on vacation. a kind of thing you don't typically see in traditional christian church settings, but that seems to be the practice or the norm at bishop jackson's church. >> and so to those outside of the church, do you think this man's candidacy is going to go anywhere? >> odds are not in his favor. he's got an uphill battle. >> betsy, you don't surprise me. but thank you so much for joining us. coming up, the president's set for a super power powwow in california on a day where he told americans don't believe the hype. stay with us. ♪

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we're following a developing situation nearby santa monica college, where the school remains on lockdown after a shooting. nbc news confirms at least three shooting victims. two people are in critical condition. another in serious condition. also confirmed, one shooter is down, and officials are making sure there are no additional suspects. according to knbc, witnesses say a gunman opened fire on a bus and other vehicles. this all unfolded just miles away from where the president was attending a fund-raiser today. and we'll bring you developments as we get them. and coincidentally, the president is nearby this shooting preparing for a meeting that will pivot his attention to asia. and this shift takes a significant step forward today with the first of two days of meetings in southern california between the president and the president of china. expected to be discussed are economic issues, the situation

with north korea, and perhaps most importantly this week, cyber security. let's get right to our own correspondent, kristen welker who's with us in california. kristen, we'll get to this evening's meeting in second, but first, let me get the president's comments earlier on the nsa gathering information. the president answered only a couple of questions about the program, but it was quite a thorough answer. yesterday it was phones. today it's the internet. should we be expecting further information about similar programs in the days ahead, kristen? >> reporter: well, i think that's certainly possible. what we can expect is to learn a lot more about these programs that are in place. as you know, there has really been a furor in the wake of learning about them. not only from some members of congress, but also from the public. the president made two key points today. the first one was that in his words, no one is listening to your phone calls. the second one is that both of these programs do have congressional oversight.

so he really emphasized those two points, but martin, of course, this comes after the irs controversy, the d.o.g. seizing journalists' records. it sort of adds to questions about the level of transparency within this administration. and some members of his own party, including representatives mark udall and ron wyden say they want more answers about this. so i think that this is the beginning of a very long debate, and i expect we're going to learn a lot more about these programs in the coming days. >> kristen, how much is the president planning to push the issue of cyber security with president xi? because as we know, the chinese have for a long period of time hacking into american computers and stealing all kinds of american material for their own financial benefit. >> reporter: right. u.s. officials say that the chinese have stolen billions of dollars of intellectual property. we should say that china's officials say they have never engaged in such behavior.

nonetheless, this will be one of the pressing issues discussed at this two-day summit, and i don't think that we are going to come out of these two days with a grand announcement. i do think we can expect the president to press him behind the scenes. the new president of china. to really be engaged in what is is happening on the cyber security front. this is a unique summit, martin, because it is being held at the sunny lands estates. this is a historic estate. it is is meant to create a more relaxed tone, a more open dialogue. more than six hours of conversation that the white house is hoping will sort of lay the groundwork for a better working relationship as they try to stamp out things like cyber security. martin? >> kristen welker covering the president's talks with the chinese president. thank you as always. and for further analysis, i'm joined now by gordon chang, a columnist and author of "the coming collapse of klechina." mr. chang, welcome. how vital are these talks with the chinese in terms of moving the relationship forward? >> well, any meeting with a new

chinese leader is important. we have to put it in context. you know, we sort of think if we talk to the chinese, xi jinping that we can push the country in a better direction. we also have to remember because of internal problems, you have a faltering economy, a political system that could be in disarray. the rise of the military. i don't think beijing is in a position to be able to deal in good faith with the rest of the international community. and we also have to remember, you know, china has a collective political system, so, you know, no individual, including the leader of china, is in a position to take personal views and to translate them into policies. so, you know, i think that it is probably a lot less important than, you know, we're starting to think. >> how important, though, in terms of the content of these discussions do you think the issue of cyber crime is going to be? because so many american businesses are sick and tired. they genuinely believe that their material is being routi routineroutin routinely stolen. >> it's about $250 billion a year of intellectual property that is lost.

about $140 billion that's lost in just crime. you add those two up together, you have an enormous number. so this has got to be, you know, issue number one. you know, the president from early in his first term talked to the chinese about cyber hacking. you know, this year we've seen jack lew, treasury secretary, secretary of state john kerry, chairman of the joint chiefs martin dempsey, all go to beijing to talk about this issue. you know it's number one at the top. >> absolutely. there's been some talk lately about china benefiting most from oil in iraq as you know. >> yeah. >> here's jon stewart on the "daily show" having some fun about it. >> iraq, you routed all your oil contracts to china? china, we spent $2 billion. we're building iraq's infrastructure. big [ bleep ] deal. when we were in iraq, we'd spend $2 billion just looking for the other $9 billion we lost. >> that's funny about iraq, but then you've got places like

malawi where the chinese are building, have built parliament building, are building a university, are involved in productivity of tobacco, cotton mining, forestry. i mean, the chinese have been heavily involved almost without the world's attention in so many places around the world. >> and xi jiping before he shows up in palm springs he's gone to costa rica, mexico, tobago, handed out $4 billion of loans or something like that. clearly china wants to exert its influence in the region. you talked about malawi. china and africa has had a strong relationship from the beginning of the people's republic. we just see this around the world. yes, china is trying to exert its influence. i think it is high tide. even in africa you're starting to see a lot of pushback. chinese and africans have had good friendships for a long time. it's starting to erode. >> not least because in malawi the chinese are paying below the minimum wage for so many factory

workers. now, there's been some attention paid to the fact that the first lady will not be attending this meeting. what do you make of that? >> that was absolutely the right move. the first lady -- >> the right move? >> the right move not to meet the first lady of china. and the reason is that all authoritarian regimes love legitimatization. the first lady of china, there are pictures of her serenading the troops in tiananmen square just after the massacre in 1989. she's also done a number of other things that really are just beyond. yes, we have to talk to her husband, but that doesn't mean the first lady of the united states should dignify her. >> gordon chang, thank you so much for your insight. we do appreciate it. and we'll be right back. i want to make things more secure. [ whirring ] [ dog barks ] i want to treat more dogs. ♪ our business needs more cases. [ male announcer ] where do you want to take your business? i need help selling art.

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begins tomorrow at 4:00 p.m. of course, followed by "the ed show." 4:00 p.m., the best time of day. michael smerconish is in for chris matthews this afternoon. and he'll pick things up right now. i spy. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm michael smerconish in new york for chris matthews. let's begin tonight with this classic american debate. it's the tug-of-war between the national security and personal privacy. but what makes this fight so unusual is that even as we learn that washington is keeping tabs on who has phoned whom and when, we're reminded that this is a government headed by a liberal democratic president who's made a virtue of transparency. today, the story got even richer. today we learned that washingt