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intelligence capabilities. >> the surveillance firestorm, might all the recent leaks about america's terror-fighting methods hurt the country? we're going to bring you some new information and reaction. plus, who are the people monitoring this data? did this actually stop an actual terrorist attack happening? the trial of george zimmerman starts tomorrow. there's one key issue that remains unresolved. it's official. one city on the west coast is at the top of a category that might make you want to go there, but not alone. hello, everyone. it's high noon in the east, 9:00 a.m. out west. welcome to "weekends with alex witt." we begin with new details about the government's controversial surveillance program involving phone calls and internet usage. >> my concern is this is vast. it hasn't been proven that it works, uniquely valuable intelligence hasn't been proven to disrupted plots.

finally, it's only another step to take that computer data and involve human beings and further taking a look at it. >> i do believe that if this was september 12th, 2001, we might not be having the argument that we're having today. and, yes, perhaps there's -- there has been some overreach, but to somehow think that because we are having phone calls recorded as far as their length and who they were talking to, i don't think that that is necessarily wrong if they want to go further and they have to go to this court. >> and an nbc exclusive, andrea mitchell's interview with james clapper about the surveillance programs. >> we are under strict court supervision and have to get -- and have to get permission to actually look at that. so the notion that we're trolling through everyone's e-mails and voyeuristically reading them or listening to everyone's phone calls is, on

its face, absurd. we couldn't do it even if we wanted to. and i assure you, we don't want to. >> nbc's kristen welker is traveling with the president. good day to you. what else are we hearing today that is new from lawmakers on this? >> reporter: well, alex, i think the question is, what happens next? that's what lawmakers have been debating on the sunday shows. so ron white and senator ron wyden, came forward along with mark udall, basically saying the patriot act should be renegotiated. of course, the patriot act is what allows this type of surveillance program to go forward. he made the point this morning that it has gone too far. the obama administration has taken this a step too far. on the other side, you have republicans, many who say this is exactly what we need for national security, including representative mike rogers,

chairman of the house intelligence committee, who said these types of surveillance programs have prevented terrorist attacks, two that we know about. and he made the point that they are absolutely necessary. here's a little bit more of what mark udall and mike rogers had to say on abc this morning. take a listen. >> when you make calls, where you make calls to, who you're talking to, i think that's private information. i think if the government's gathering that, the american people ought to know it. we ought to have a discussion about it. frankly, i think we ought to reopen the patriot act and put some limits on the amount of data that the national security administration is collecting. >> the national security administration is not listening to america's phone calls and it is not reading americans' e-mails. none of the programs allow that. the patriot act, part of the 702, says it is expressly prohibited by law that you can read and wholly surveill domestic e-mail in the united

states. >> reporter: senator dianne feinstein said she would be willing to open up hearings on this to have more oversight on the hill. president obama, of course, out here traveling in southern california. he's just wrapping up a two-day summit with china's president, xi jinping. they discussed a number of issues, including north korea, but the issue about the surveillance program continued to be on the table. he defended it, saying it is necessary for national security and pointed out there is congressional and judicial oversight. alex? >> okay, kristen welker, save travels. thank you. joining me is democratic congressman dennis horseberg. welcome to you. i'm glad to have you here to join us. >> that i, alex. >> i want to talk about what president obama said in his rashes on friday in which congress was fully aware of the phone-tapping program. many of your colleagues are saying that's not quite true. how much did you know before the articles came out? >> well, to date, we have not been fully briefed.

there are some members of congress who have been briefed, and that's actually one of the concerns that i have. this is an important enough program. the fact that information is being collected, every member of congress needs to know how it works, what information is being collected, what it's being collected for, and who has access to that information. and as a member of the homeland security committee and the house oversight committee, those are the questions that i have. >> there are some of your colleagues -- i should think you have heard this -- they're saying one of the problems is no one shows up to the intelligence briefings. what do you think about that? >> well, every briefing that i've been invited to, i attend as a member of the homeland security committee. these are very important issues. look, this is about the need to balance our individual privacy and civil liberties with national security. this is a very important discussion, one that the president said we need to have,

not only as congress, but as the american public. and it's important that all of us are engaged and that we understand the implications of this very important policy. >> you attend these, you're on the homeland security committee. can others attend those briefings if they want to? and if they -- if you're part of a secured intelligence briefing, can you share any of that information with anyone without punitive action? >> no, we actually take an oath when we receive classified information in these briefings, and staff are not able to attend. we are not able to take notes. we don't take our phones into these briefings. and when we leave, we're not able to discuss detail about what is shared in those hearings. but this is why we need greater congressional oversight, because there are times when information can be shared in a congressional

hearing broadly, and that's the type of openness and transparency that i think the american people expect and deserve. >> okay. what about the prism computer program at the heart of all of this? when were you, if ever, briefed on that? >> to date, i have not been briefed. it's my understanding that a briefing is being scheduled for tuesday for -- with the members. and so, you know, i will attend and receive the information that is shared with us. but again, if there's information that is affecting individuals and our civil liberties, we need to be able to have this discussion in the open, because ultimately, it's my constituents that i represent that need to know what this means, why the information is being collected, and what it's being used for. >> do you have any information on terror plots that were thwarted specifically by these programs, prism or otherwise?

>> well, what i do know is that about 1,800 requests were made through the fisa courts, and they were granted. and there is a level of oversight between the judicial courts as well as the approval that was made by congress. you know, this was approved in 2008 and appears to be a policy that was used even prior to that. but the question really remains how is this information used? what is being collected? it's a lot of information. where is it being held and who has access to it? those are all important questions that i think have to be answered. >> with regard to transparency versus national security, should the american public know about these programs? >> absolutely. i do not think that there's any program that is so important that the american public should not know.

yes, we need national security and programs that are protecting our home front. but we can do that in a way that also provides for a level of openness and transparency. it's a false choice to say we can't have both. >> all right. nevada democratic representative steven horsford. thank you so much for your time. we'll look forward to seeing you again. >> thank you very much. in paris, two sudden and unusual interruptions at the french open. it's unclear what this is about. at one point, there was a fiery cloth on the court, and a man with a flare on the playing surface. let's go live to london and nbc's anna bell roberts. so most curious here, anna bell. what do we know about all of this? >> reporter: yes, alex, as you say, very odd. two protestered stood up in the frontcourt, at the end of the sixth game. one of them was bare chested wearing a white face mask. he let off a flare with lots of white smoke and jumped onto the

court, ran over almost to the line, close to where rafael nadal was standing, he was getting ready to serve. the protester was swiftly stopped by security who pushed him to the ground and dragged him away. this followed an earlier incident, same match, when two different protesters were stopped by security and removed from the premises. they were seen waving a banner denouncing the gay marriage law that has just been passed in france by the president. now, there've been strong, big demonstrations up and down the country against this law in recent weeks and they've been very well organized, attended by hundreds of thousands of people. it's not yet known that the second incident with the flare was carried out by anti-gay marriage protesters, but it does seem to suggest there is some kind of link there. now, alex, the two players, two spanish players, carried on. they didn't seem too upset by the disruption, carried on,

finished match. if you are a tennis fan, you might be interested to know that rafael nadal won. >> i am a tennis fan. good to know all of that and at least no one was injured in boefth the incidents. thank you very much, annabel roberts. back here in the states, jury selection for the trial of george zimmerman begins at 9:00 a.m. tomorrow. attorneys for both sides will pick a jury of six from hundreds who live in the area. the judge also suspended a pretrial hearing to determine if voice analysis of a 911 call from the day of the shooting should be admissible at trial. that hearing is expected to resume sometime this week with testimony from a final voice expert. just yesterday, zimmerman's defense attorney says he made another request for the judge to delay the trial. >> we just got a thousand-page report from the state on wednesday. i don't know how different that is from a previous report we got, but i know it has significantly different information. so that's on trayvon martin's phone. so that's going to take some time. we know some of the state experts are not even done with their work yet.

some of our experts are still doing their work. >> the judge denied his original request for a delay last month, and we'll have a bit more on the story later in the show. let's go now to weather and nbc meteorologist dylan dreyer. let's ask about stormy weather. >> we will see some storms in parts of the midwest, southern illinois, parts of arkansas and western kentucky and tennessee. there aren't going to be a whole lot of really severe storms. we're not looking at a tornado outbreak. isolated tornado is possible. but it's going to look like we'll see more straightline damaging wind gusts possible, and also some hail. so that's going to be an area we'll keep an eye out for later today. for right now, most of the showers and storms we're seeing are moving just off the coast of the panhandle of florida, across the gulf of mexico. you can also see that line of somehow others and storms redeveloping across southwestern arkansas. those are the storms that will intensify a little bit later on this afternoon. further north, we have the showers and isolated thunderstorms moving through missouri and scattered showers

into parts of illinois. it's the area in yellow from southern illinois into arkansas where we could see stronger storms today. temperatures a big story. most areas are dealing with a really nice day. temperatures in the mid-70s, but it's in the southwest where temperatures are scorching. 111 in las vegas. this is actually the earliest it's been this hot on record if that makes answer sense. it's the earliest june day we've seen temperatures this warm. normal high is down around 100. so to be up around 111 this early in the season is certainly hotter than even they're used to. alex? >> yeah. and that's saying something. okay, dylan, thank you so much. by the way, for all of you, dylan will join us in the next hour to tell us about her recent trip to alaska and show us what nasa is doing about the melting glaciers there. gorgeous pictures coming your way in the next hour. who will win the argument over the nsa surveillance program? those calling it a national security must, or those saying it violates your privacy. some answers next. [ male announcer ] citibank's app for ipad

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the director of national intelligence has taken the rare step of declassifying more details of a government data collection program as a response to media reports. at the same time, james clapper continues to criticize the leaks, calling them reckless, but says collection of internet data is authorized by congress, strictly supervised and cannot target a u.s. citizen. let me bring in "washington post" reporter emily hywell and cnbc washington chief correspondent and writer for "washington times" john harwood. a good day to both of you. john, let's step back a moment. how big is this surveillance story? i want perspective with respect to america's national security interests. >> well, it's somewhat bigger for those of us in the media, i think, than it is with the general public. you know, we've had a long

debate since 9/11 about steps that the united states government might take, wants to take, did take, whether it's gone too far in terms of surveillance, in terms of how we've treated people, you know, terrorists that we've captured. generally speaking, the american public is -- sides with more aggressive approaches to doing that. now, it's always worthwhile to have a debate about what's too far. but it was interesting to me that in our nbc/"wall street journal" poll this past week, alex, we asked about drone strikes, which is something that sparked a related debate, you know, ordered in secret, these are things that don't require boots on the ground, collateral damage, who gets hurt, how do you make the decision, and president obama recently gave a speech about this. 66% of the american people said they supported those drone strikes. 16% said they were against. that's kind of a sign, i think, as to how this national security debate might come out on surveillance. >> real quickly, though, how many shoes are going to drop on

this overall? it seems like every day there is a new story about u.s. intelligence gathering. >> don't know. we're going to wait and see, and certainly the administration is concerned about it. that's why james clapper did declassify some of the details. it's why the president on the eve of his meeting with the chinese president took the step of -- felt forced to take the step of addressing the controversy, which he tried to do. and it's -- we're going to have to wait and see. i'm sure there's a ton of polling being done by both parties on this to try to get a sense of -- whether the sense of public outrage matches the sense of alarm in the media. and that may influence how both sides treat it going forward. >> yeah, good point. emily, i spoke with judiciary committee member representative gerald nadler yesterday. let's listen to that. >> a lot of people voted for it. and i didn't. >> right. and this is -- >> a lot of people -- a lot of people voted for it without realizing the implications. >> why not? is it because -- >> because the administration at the time, congressional leaders,

were denying the implications. members of the intelligence committee had been briefed. some of them. most members have not been briefed in detail on this. and, you know, members of congress have to deal with a lot of subjects. there aren't that many who look at -- in detail at these kinds of issues. >> so which is it, emily? are some members of congress not privy to some information, or do they just not pay close enough attention? >> maybe a little bit of both, i think. i think there's a great interest on the part of congress not to have any fingerprints on this. they're trying to play down any knowledge and understanding of this -- these kinds of programs, where the administration is really trying to play up congress' role here. we have administration officials noting there were 13 briefings that took place between 2009 and 2013 about the patriot act, and the section of it that applies here. but the problem here is that oversight, congressional oversight of these very delicate

intelligence matters, is a very odd thing. it's fractured. that's a word someone i was talking about earlier today about it used. and, you know, rank-and-file members don't have the kind of access that members of both intelligence committees on the house and senate side do. so these intelligence committee members are -- they have higher clearance. they get to see these documents more frequently. they get this information more frequently. but we're seeing, also, the problem of even those lawmakers who understand these issues, who get the chance to get to know them and see what's happening, what can they do if they find themselves very disturbed by it. >> i'm curious, because beyond some of the more progressive democrats, emily, are there really any members of congress arguing against the data-gathering measures? >> yes. i think this is going to be an issue that splits congress not along very traditional partisan divides. you'll see interesting coalitions springing up. over on the house side, younger conservatives have a little bit

more of a libertarian streaks, so you'll see some of them joining with the liberal democrats who have traditionally been against sort of government overreach in these kinds of matters. they're not tied to these bush-era programs the way some of the -- you know, the defense hawks, the lindsey grahams, the john mccains of the world -- are. so you'll see alliances that are a little unusual. >> unusual developing here. >> alex, if i could just -- >> yeah? >> if i could just add to what emily said. it is true that there's bipartisan and sort of cross-cutting opposition to this. but there's also cross-cutting support for it. and remember, when you had these revelations come out, you had lindsey graham, mike rogers, the chairman of the intelligence committee on the house side, dianne feinstein, come out and say, hey, wait a minute, these things have protected american national security, and that's why we passed them. that's why we voted with them for a large majorities. yes, you could have a bipartisan effort in the name of civil liberties to challenge that, but that is likely to get the short side of public opinion from what dianne feinstein and lindsey

graham are saying, which is, yeah, it's -- these are difficult and challenging programs, but they've kept us safe. that's the more popular position, at least from everything we've known so far. >> yeah, interesting times political speaking, on this. thank you very much. from there to south africa now, where nelson mandela spent a second night in the hospital. the 94-year-old former president is reportedly stable, but his condition is considered serious. doctors are treating mr. mandela for a recurrent lung infection. it is the fourth time since december that he's been admitted to the hospital. we are live in johannesburg with an update in our next hour. whatever happened to one of the most famous people in the world? my conversation with maureen orr next. ♪ [ male announcer ] moving object detection. ♪ blind spot warning. ♪ lane departure warning.

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billionaire heiress of l'oreal. still standing by his side is his glamorous wife, former model and singer, carla bruni. in a new profile in "vanity fair," my next guest speaks with the former first lady of france about the scandal, her new album and her new life outside the elysses palace. so good to have you here. >> thank you for having me. >> i think so many women want to know behind the spell that carla bruni seems to cast on the high-profile men in her life, both current and the past? >> she's very intelligent and she has a great sense of humor and great self-confidence, and it doesn't hurt to be as beautiful as she is. i think 9 combination of all of them. she's playful and fun. she can also sing in this very breathy, very sexy french voice. she can speak several languages. so it all adds up to be all kinds of very sexy whispers in your ear, i guess. >> yeah, i guess so. how successful was she as

france's first lady? who were her supporters and her detractors in. >> most people really loved the beautiful image and elegant image that she projected for france. france does not expect its first ladies to have an entire schedule filled up all day long the way we do in the united states. so she had a baby at age 43, while her husband was running for office. and she gained a lot of weight. she was attacked for her looks. and that really threw her, because she had lived by her looks all her life. so she spent time being pregnant, and then having the baby. but she also started a charity for cultural events for poor people and things like that. so i thought she -- most people really, really did like her and i think she was a complete asset to her husband. >> what does she think of her husband's current political aspirations? i mean, do you think he's seriously considering a run to try to get back into the palace? >> this is a man who started out having political office at age

28. this is all he has done his entire life. i don't think it would be very easy for him to really contemplate a life without politics. and so, she's willing to go along with it. but i think she'd much prefer being able to have her music career. she's got a new album called "little french songs." that's what she's interesting in right now. >> do you get a sense that the citizens support the concept of their first lady being a singer as well? i'm not sure that would fly here in the states as much. >> she did not release any albums when he was president. that kind of gives you the answer. and they really respect privacy a lot more. they say than we do. but first ladies can tend to be controversial. and besides, they all have complicated personal lives way beyond anything we deal with. >> that seems to be the case over there. >> yeah. >> i want to switch gears and talk a bit about the work you're doing with your charity. the marina orr foundation.

the name of it comes from the colombians you were visiting could not pronounce your name. >> i was a peace corps volunteer in colombia, and they named a school after me, marina orth comes from. i go back down there all the time, because i was asked if i could help begin the first public bilingual school. so now we're about to launch our fourth school and every child has one laptop or computer and is also learning english and leadership. so i'm very, very proud of the work that we're doing down there and the wonderful team i have. and we're doing a big fund raiser today at my house, and i'm hoping everybody will contribute. >> oh, no, yeah, i'll ask you one more question, because i'm sure you have to get ready for that. the impact you see of bringing technology and science and this education -- bilingual education to these children. what are the effects of that in. >> it's amazing, because i'll tell you what, i always tell the

colombians, this is not charity. this is the development of their country. this is their future labor force. it's good for the whole world. to have global citizens and people that are -- can be, also, consumers for our products as well as creating better products for themselves. the colombians are on a roll now. they've made terrific progress. i've got little girls building robots and organic gardens and kids taking apart their computers and putting them back together at age 7. i'm just very excited about everything that's going on down there right now. >> okay. very quickly, why colombia? >> because i was in the peace corps there for two years. >> that was it. >> it's my second country. yes. >> that's wonderful. i want to let everyone know, they saw at the bottom of the screen, but can will onto your website, marinaorthfoundation.org. congratulati congratulations. get home and tidy up. >> oh, yeah, how about the weather? >> yeah. we should mention, everyone, the article about carla bruni online at vanityfair.com.

exclusive reaction from the national intelligence director about the programs next. our visionary cloud infrastructure, and dedicated support, free you to focus on what matters. centurylink. your link to what's next.

new information on the government's controversial surveillance program. the director of national intelligence, james clapper, spoke exclusively with nbc's andrea mitchell about where the obama administration stands when it comes to monitoring your phone calls and e-mails. andrea has more from the washington bureau. andrea, hello to you. >> director of national security, james clapper, has called the leaks to the guardian and the "washington post" reckless. in an exclusive interview with nbc news, james clapper vigor s vigorously defended the archiving of telephone calls and surveillance into foreign e-mails as critical for national security. overseeing all 16 intelligence agencies, including the cia and nsa, james clapper argues the leaks have given terror networks a roadmap on how the u.s. goes after them. >> for me, it is literally, not

figuratively, literally gut-wrenching to see this happen. because of the huge, grave damage it does to our intelligence capabilities. >> how has it hurt american intelligen intelligence? >> transparency has a double-edged sword, and our adversarie adversaries, nefarious groups, benefit from that same transparency. so as we speak, they are going to school and learning how we do this. and so, that's why it potentially has -- can render great damage to our intelligence capabilities. >> at the same time, when americans woke up and learned, because of these leaks, that every single telephone call made in the united states is archived, people were astanded by that. they had no idea. they felt invaded. >> i and everyone in the intelligence community, who are also citizens, also care very deeply with our privacy and

civil liberties, i certainly do. so the notion that we're trolling through everyone's e-mails and voyeuristically reading them and listening to everyone's phone calls is on its face absurd. we couldn't do it even if we wanted to. >> reporter: clapper said two plots were averted in 2009 because of the law permitting foreign e-mails to be intercepted. one to bomb the new york city subway. it led to the arrest and conviction of an afghan american. a second involved david headily, a u.s. citizen, who confessed to confessed to the mumbai, india, bombing. and after riots around the world after a cartoon insulting to some muslims, plans to attack the danish newspaper that published the cartoon. americans might say, yes, but terrorists succeeded in boston at the marathon. terrorists have succeeded elsewhere, and not been thwarted, despite all of this information that is gathered by nsa. >> reporter: well, that's true, and i find it a little ironic

that several weeks ago after the boston bombings, we were accused of not being sufficiently intrusive. we failed to determine the exact tipping point when the brothers self-radicalized. and then it was, we weren't intrusive enough. >> reporter: clapper acknowledged mistakes. nbc has reported that an incorrect digit of a phone number was archived, exposing innocent callers to surveillance. >> when we discover errors, which in all cases i'm familiar with, were innocent and unintended, they are immediately corrected, and any of the ill-begotten collection is destroyed. >> reporter: some call the leaker to the "washington post" and to "the guardian" a whistle-blower. "the post" described its source as a disgruntled intelligence officer. >> well, i think we all feel profoundly offended by that. this is someone who, for whatever reason, has chosen to violate a sacred trust. i hope we're able to track down whoever is doing this, because it is extremely damaging to --

it affects the safety and security of this country. >> reporter: and clapper says that the national security agency has already asked for a criminal investigation to track down the leakers. alex? >> all right. nbc's andrea mitchell. thank you so much. jury selection in the george zimmerman trial starts tomorrow. what both sides will be looking for, next. so i have this front porch. but it's really empty. so, my dad is making me these. i said i'd help. ah, so you're going to need some tools of your own.

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and some eye problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking advair. ask your doctor if including advair could help improve your lung function. [ male announcer ] advair diskus fluticasone propionate and salmeterol inhalation powder. get your first prescription free and save on refills at advaircopd.com. taking a look at the week on wall street. apple's developers conference gets under way. the company is expected to unveil new software for the ipad and iphone. we could also get a preview of i radio, a new streaming music service. we'll find out monday how much the lululemon recall hurt profits. you may recall the yoga pants were recalled after being too sheer. mcdonald's will release the may sales report. sales have been falling in recent months. the company said it would offer a mix of burgers and breakfast food to late-night diners. in today's office politics,

msnbc host karen finney, whose new show "disrupt" airs today at 4:00 p.m. eastern, here we describe her family tree in the civil war on both sides of her family, but i asked her about the controversies challenging the obama administration and the gop's plans to use them to their advantage. >> they clearly think they can ride this to the midterm elections on this sort of culture of cover-up. you know, you've heard them talking about, and they've been trying to, you know, lob the three things together. personally, it makes me mad, because in 2006, the message frame that actually governor dean and i came up with, the culture of corruption, and we were talking about, you know, tom delay and jack abramoff and the outing of valerie plam, and talking about very real, substantive things. so they're trying to create the sense of scandal. i've heard them say things like, we have to restore integrity. you know, that kind of stuff. i think chairman issa has

contributed to this. they've overstepped it already, and i think there's a real concern. you're seeing this in the polls. although some people have some concerns about some of the issues, they want jobs. they want this economy focused on. one of the things that informs a lot of the way i look at issues is -- my mother's white and my father's african-american. and i think that -- i grew up with the perspective kind of looking at things from both sides. both my parents grew up in the segregated south, and their backgrounds completely different. they actually met here in new york at columbia in the '60s. >> that's where you get your smarts. >> also, that's where i like to tease them, because they were going to change the world and all that. but absolutely, i mean, my grandfather -- my mom's father -- i've talked about this before, i wasn't allowed in his home until i was 16, because he was so ashamed to have a mixed-race granddaughter. and that experience -- but, you know, it taught me a lot about -- you know, i understand.

i understood -- i didn't like it. i didn't agree with it. but i hope that it has given me broader perspective. and also, it's part of the reason i want to hear both sides. you know? i've always been somebody who asks, well, why? why is it that way? when kids used to tease me, well, are you adopted, because my mom, you know, is white, had blond hair and green eyes, i would say, why would you think that? she's my mom. you know. so i think that is one of the things it gave me as sort of an unending curiosity about, you know, why things are the way they are and trying to understand. and on my father's side of the family, we're descendant of slaves. i've figured out where the finney family was, because virginia kept such great records. there was actually a captain finney who served under robert

e. lee's father in the revolutionary war. we're all connected in ways we just never imagined. >> it probably makes you a more acute student of history. i mean, you could personalize, study the civil war history. >> sure. >> and i have to tell you, i'm related to george washington, my cousin. >> oh, cool. >> and i love revolutionary war because of that reason. it's a great thing to pass on to your kids. for me, it gets me to mount vernon free. >> and whether we go to arlington, because the lee mansion is sitting at the top. so do we get that back at some point or -- >> right. >> no. >> so what's with the football? >> so this is so cool. so the military aides to the president, you will see them if you look, there's a guy or a woman in uniform carrying the suitcase, which is the codes, right? >> oh, wow. >> the nuclear codes. they call it the football. so when i was a scheduler for president clinton, when you leave, the military aides give

you a football to say thank you for your service. and so, it says karen finney, white house scheduler, and then each of the gentlemen who were serving as military aides to the president at the time signed it, from each of the branchs of the military. >> that's great keepsake. >> and the guys toss it around, and i'm, like, don't touch it. >> do you love cheerios -- >> cheerios is the official snack food of disrupt. >> excellent. heart healthy. >> absolutely. and happens to be heart healthy. >> we invite all of you to watch "disrupt" with karen finney today at 4:00 eastern. a new federal report has come out on the nation's economic growth in 2012. it shows a 2.5% in real gross domestic product for the country. of course, some regioned fared better than others. the southwest saw the strongest growth with the gdp% of over a percent. the far west second, and the

plains third. north dakota's increase of almost 13.4% was far, far better than any other state and thanks to the booming energy production. texas came in second at almost 5%. third-ranked oregon gained 4% in gdp. the big apple's big time for new business. new york's the top city for the number of new high-tech start-up companies. and if you left your heart in san francisco, that might be a good thing. a travel website names the city by the bay the nation's the most romantic city. both tylenol and bayer advanced aspirin

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jury selection starts tomorrow as the trial of george zimmerman for second-degree murder getsnd way. attorneys on both sides will have to narrow down a pool of hundreds of potential jurors just down to six. joining me now is our legal news correspondent sema meyer and paul henderson. and before we get started, i want to let all of you know george zimmerman has sued nbc universal, the parent company of

this network, for defamation. the company has strongly denied his allegations. but as we get to this, cema, i'll start with you first. cases are sometimes won or lost in the jury selection phase, if you think about it that way. what is it that each side will be working for? >> that's great point. the defense is going to try to make sure that everybody on that jury has an opinion about trayvon martin, that everybody in that jury pool, rather, has heard about the text messages, has seen the photographs, and they are going to try to get people who have that skewed opinion, that perhaps believe in self-defense. that's what they want. >> okay. and the prosecution, how many can they say, no, we disagree this person you want. how many times can they do that? >> there's a certain amount of challenges that each side has, and it really depends on the florida statute at this point. and i am not certain about that. but since it is second degree

murder, it's probably around 15 challenges each. >> okay. >> you can challenge someone, but you can't challenge someone because of their face or sexual orientation or gender. >> believing there's a prejudice, they can say we don't want -- >> well, prejudice is a different department altogether. if you are prejudice and if you say, i cannot be fair, you are automatically disqualified from sitting on any jury. >> okay. so, paul, should mark o'meara, zimmerman's attorney, be asking to change the venue of this trial? is that the only way they can get a fair one? >> well, i don't think so. i think this is a nationwide case that has caught nationwide attention. you know, it's just like we talked about earlier, both sides are going to be looking to really try and discover when they poll their panel what people know about this case and how they feel about this case before they're selected. the prosecution is -- if i were handling this case, one of the things i would be looking for would be jurors that have some

experience in dealing with stereotypes. because i think there's an undercurrent dealing with steer wroe types that surrounds this case that i think is going to be really relevant as the evidence unfolds. >> you know what's interesting here, paul, is the court has denied a motion to sequester potential jurors during the selection phase. it hasn't decided if the jury of six eventually selected will be sequestered. so if they are, how would that impact the trial? >> well, if they are, it would impact the trial because they have to be kept away from all media analysis, right? and so, we already know that this is a case of national attention. and so, the court does not want -- and apparently the advocates, some of the advocates, don't want jurors to be influenced and hearing what public sentiment is. what the experts are saying outside of the courtroom about the evidence that they're hearing, because everyone's going to be watching the hearing and watching the evidence as it comes in. they want the jurors to be able to evaluate it independently based on their own experiences

in the courtroom and not have an influence what what they may read in a newspaper, a magazine, see on television or hear from their friends and family. >> you know, seema, yesterday, the hearing was about whether to let the 911 tape in, admissible for evidence. the judge did not reach a conclusion and has actually postponed that decision-making process. so, seema, who does that benefit more? which side? >> i think at this point, it benefits the defense, because you still left open with that self-defense issue, that if it was george zimmerman screaming, then we have more to make a foundation for the self-defense charge, which is that trayvon was the initial aggressor. trayvon started the fight. so everything in this scenario benefits the defense. >> yeah. paul, if the tape is ruled inadmissible and both sides are restricted from using these allegations from zimmerman's

past or pictures and texts allegedly from martin's cell phone as evidence, how does this case go about being tried? >> well, here's the thing. i mean, when you're talking about the tape, i think there's a two-prong analysis, because, one, the court will determine whether or not the audiotape will be admitted independently. and i think that there's a high likelihood that the jurors will end up hearing that audiotape. the bigger fight is whether or not the experts will be used in regards to that tape. again, there's two issues. one, whether or not their enhancements to the tape will be allowed to play and whether or not they used the standard procedure and scientific methods and what the audiotape has been. and then, also, whether or not they will give their own expert opinion as to what's on that tape. >> yeah. >> and so, that's where i think the real fight is going to be. i think, you know, everyone request listen to the tape and hear what they hear. >> right. >> and then the lawyers will argue. what the court is taking so long to flesh out is whether or not they're going to allow experts

on both sides to come in and say, well, this is what i heard on the tape as an expert. >> yeah. >> and so, that's where the real fight is going to be, and that's what i think is taking so long -- >> may i ask you very quickly, because we're out of time here. >> yeah. >> would you put george zimmerman on the stand, give me a yes, no? paul, you? >> yeah. he's got to. he has an affirmative defense, self-defense. he has to. >> that's not true. because all of the statements that he said thus far to police, to media, all of that has a foundation that lays for the self-defense charge. he doesn't need to testify and he'd only ruin it if he does. >> all right. thank you both so much. the glaciers of alaska, why naas ka is monday -- nasa is monitoring them so closely, and what they have to do with miami, florida. my mother made the best toffee in the world.

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surveillance. an exclusive interview with the nation's top intel officer and his defense of the nsa's value to keep america safe. jury selection begins tomorrow in the trial of george zimmerman. we'll review the questions in the case jurors may have to decide. and why is nasa measuring glacier melt in alaska, and what's the connection to florida? hello, everyone. welcome to "weekends with alex witt." just past 1:00 p.m. in the east. we're learning new details today about the government's surveillance program and new reaction from lawmakers. >> these programs are within the law. the business records section is reviewed by a federal judge every 90 days. it's overseen by the justice department. by inspectors general. by audits. by a 90-day review by the court. it's looked at as a method. i'm very happy if there's a better way, we will certainly look at -- >> i am calling for reopening of the patriot act.

that's why i'm calling for a debate all over the country. maybe americans think this is okay, but i think the line has been drawn too far towards the -- that we're going to invade your privacy versus we're going to respect your privacy. >> and more of an nbc exclusive. andrea mitchell interviews director of national intelligence james clapper, who defends the surveillance programs. >> trying to minimize the invasions of privacy and keep them to an absolute minimum, and only focus on those targets that really do pose a threat. >> let's go to palm springs, california, nbc's kristen welker, traveling with the president. so, kristen, as you heard, we had two democrats there, senator mark udall of colorado, and senator dianne feinstein of california. what about republicans? what are you hearing from them? >> reporter: alex, this is one of these rare moments where you actually have a lot of republicans agreeing with the obama administration. one of the loudest voices, mike

rogers, of the house -- chairman of the house intelligence committee, who has made the point that he believes this is necessary for national security, pointing out that it has prevented at least two terrorist attacks. but we should say it's not, of course, all republicans. rand paul sees it very differently. he says this is a clear indication of government overreach. he would like more transparency. take a listen to more of what mike rogers and rand paul had to say earlier on the sunday morning shows. >> one of the things we're charged with is keeping america safe and civil liberties intact. i think we've done both in this particular case. the problem with this is, if you tell our adversaries and our enemies in the counterterrorism fight exactly how we conduct business, they're not going to do business the same way ever again. >> get a warrant. go after a terrorist or a murderer or a rapist. but don't troll through a billion phone records every day. that is unconstitutional, it invades our privacy, and i'm

going to be seeing if i can challenge this at the supreme court level. >> reporter: now, alex, as you mentioned, andrea mitchell got an exclusive interview with dni director james clapper, who said the leaks about these programs are reckless disclosures, in his view. he also told andrea mitchell that the nsa has called for a criminal investigation to determine who exactly is behind these leaks. now, i am here in southern california, as you mentioned, covering president obama, who just wrapped up a two-day summit with china's president, xi jinping. they discussed a wide range of issues, including north korea, cyber security. but he was continually pressed about this nsa issue about the recent revelations about his surveillance program. he is playing a game of golf right now. i assure you, alex, when he heads home back to washington, d.c., which will be later on today, he will be field a number of questions as lawmakers continue to debate the surveillance program. >> i think that is an accurate

prediction. thank you very much, nbc's kristen welker. joining me now, contributing editor for "newsweek" and "the daily beast" elle ma cliff. -- eleanor, i'm going to get with you in terms of your reaction so far we've learned going on under the administration. >> i think there's legitimate concern on the left and the right. but i think if we look at this with a little bit of humility, and you look at the dangers that we face around the world and the effort to catch up with the social media universe, i think what the administration is doing, continuing programs that began during the bush era, but putting them on a firmer legal and constitutional footing, i think they're doing the right thing. now, whether they've gone too far, whether there should be some brakes put on, i'm sure congress will get involved. but i think this is the world we

live in today. and right now, there's sort of an alarmist reaction -- you know, big brother has taken over. if you look at your daily life and what corporations know about you, what political campaigns know about you, and they're doing it for money or to get your vote. the government is doing it to keep us safe. and i think they've got a pretty good track record here. so i think these programs are here to stay, and i welcome scrutiny, you know, efforts to rein them in if necessary. but they're not going to go away. >> well, steve, the president says there are safeguards to prevent this information from being abused. does the government need to be more transparent about the safeguards that are in place? would that sort of quell some of the descenting voices here? >> alex, when the president stands up as he did the other day in california and basically says, trust me, and trust the government, that's not going to work. it's not going to work in this context this summer when we have all these stories about the irs and potential abuses of power by

the government, about subpoenas and looking at the records of journalists who are looking at the government. so i think that plus the secrecy of these checks and balances within the government, the fact that the court that looks at this does it in secret, with no advocate who stands up in that secret court and argues against allowing these things to happen. in that context, yes, there will be a lot of demands, particularly in congress, to either rewrite the scrutiny of it, or for more transparency. >> you know, eleanor, you brought up the point that this program was started under the george w. bush administration. how frustrating is it for this administration to have to be the ones that are answering the questions about it? >> well, i think the president -- you know, he campaigned against these programs and the breadth of them. and let's remember, the bush administration, they did torture, it was called enhanced interrogation techniques, which this administration has ended. the bush administration did

warrantless wiretapping, and this administration is not doing that. but they are gathering intelligence, and they gather all this stuff -- they're not listening in, but they get phone numbers. they get, you know, the collection of e-mails, and then they have very smart people construct these ail go rhythms. and i think the president is constitutional lawyer. he understands difficulties are here. he's tried to put them on a legal and constitutional footing. he says he welcomes the debate. i can't imagine he really does. he's prepared to defend these programs, and i think he's going to have to. >> yeah, you know, steve, in term it is of everybody's individual violations here, or the concerns about that, there are more details that trickle out every day. "the guardian" is reporting the national security agency has developed a powerful tool for recording and analyzing where the intelligence comes from --

it cannot keep track of all of the surveillance it performs on american communications. has the nsa misled congress? do you think the nsa had no other choice, they had to keep it secret to some? >> well, clearly they have to keep it secret. i don't think anyone is really proposing that all of these programs, this recordkeeping and data mining, be made public. i think the debate right now is, over what kind of scrutiny within the government there is, and what kind of checks and balances there are on it. in terms of that -- it's interesting the point, the argument now is we don't actually know enough to keep track of all of the stuff we're getting. i'm not sure if that is a citizenship should make people feel safer, better, or more secure. >> what do you think, eleanor? will we expect the president or congress to walk back at all on the programs that have been made public? >> i think there's been considerable debate behind the scenes on the intelligence

committees about these, and senator feinstein, who chairs the senate intelligence committee, said she's open to having some public hearings. i think there'll be a lot of conversation about it. a lot of debate about it. a lot of hoo haing and maybe minor changes. but i don't see significant changes coming. >> all right. eleanor clift, steve, thank you both. >> my pleasure. joining us, roger kressy will join us and will tell us what the impact may be on the fight against terror. in pairs -- paris, two unusual and sudden interruptions. at one point, there was a fiery cloth on the court and a man with a flare on the playing surface. let's go live to london. nbc's annabel roberts has been following this story. what do we know about what happened here? >> reporter: well, yes, alex,

the surroundings of the men's finals not the place you would expect to see a protest. during the second set of the match between nadal and ferrer, two protesters stood up in the front rows, very close to the court. one of them bare chested and wearing a white face mask set off a red flag with lots of white smoke. he jumped onto the court and ran over to the line, getting close to where rafael nadal was standing, and he was getting ready to serve. so no doubt, a scary moment for him. the man was wrestled to the ground by security, just meters away from nadal. two other protesters were seen waving a banner, denouncing the gay marriage law that has been passed in france, and, in fact, another group, also shirtless and wearing white masks, who climbed to the top of the seats next door and leaned over to where this match was going on, unraveling a huge banner,

calling on president francois to stand down. now, the same-sex marriage law has provoked big demonstrations in france up and down the country, attended by hundreds of thousands of people, very well organized. thankfully, no one injured here today. neither player nor any of the spectators, alex. >> yes, and it reached on and reached the successful conclusion for rafael nadal. thank you so much. the supreme court is poised to argue -- rather to issue arguably the most significant rulings in a generation. just how are the justices leaning on that? ♪ ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] for dad's first job as dad. nissan tests hundreds of child seats to give you a better fit and a safer trip. snug kids, only from nissan. ♪

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former south african president nelson mandela is in a hospital fighting a recurrent lung infection. earlier, doctors described his condition as stable but serious. nbc's rojit is in johannesburg.

let's get the latest on his condition. what do we know? >> reporter: well, we were told to expect an update from government officials today, alex, about the state of nelson mandela's health, but we waited several hours. and no update has come. a presidential spokesperson will say no news is good news. we also know, though, that they are always keen to deliver some positive news to an expectant south african public. and so, perhaps we might be able to read the lack of a statement today as news that there has been no significant improvement in his health over the last 24 hours. what we do know is he has received several visitors today. we saw several relatives, children, grandchildren arriving at the hospital during the day. his daughter visited several times. she left again around 90 minutes ago, and she was seen smiling as she was driven away. and, also, a visit from zinzi,

another daughter, quoted in the last hour as saying, "i've seen my father, and he's well. he's a fighter." he was taken into hospital early yesterday from here, his home in johannesburg. a recurrence of a lung infection, and millions of south africans hoping for a swift recovery. alex. >> yeah, absolutely. you have reported he is breathing on his own, so that is certainly a very good sign, right? >> reporter: that's right. he's said to be breathing unaided. but further to that, very little medical information. and that's causing a great deal of anxiety here in south africa, alex. >> i can imagine. all right, rohit, thank you very much. will the supreme court announce two decisions this week with the first coming tomorrow. this has been a landmark session for the high court with the ruling still to come on same-sex marriage, affirmative action, and the voting rights act. joining me now is amy howell, a partner at goldstein and russell, who has argued two dozen cases at the supreme court

and is also a lecturer at harvard law school. welcome. >> thanks for inviting me. >> which cases do you expect to hear rulings on? >> we don't know. the justices never tell us what rulings we're going to get. until it's the absolute last day of the term, all we can do is guess. the one people are waiting most anxiously for now is the decision in the affirmative action case, a case of fisher versus the university of texas, because that was argued back in october. we feel we could get a decision on that any day. >> you wrote something about that, the affirmative action case, you wrote it will have an impact far beyond public university admissions. it could affect government contracts for minority firms. will that play a role in the justices' thinking? >> it's certainly probably in the backs of their minds. but they are looking to decide this case, and then they may well have to deal later on with the other cases that flow from it. so they're already lined up to

hear another case involving affirmative action out of michigan in the fall that will certainly affect, you know, other kinds of affirmative action as well. >> yeah. let's talk about the same-sex marriage cases there. some people have said that they will probably strike down doma, but prop 8 looks like it could be held up. of course, that's from the state of california. what do you think? >> i think that's probably right. and i should start by saying that oral arguments are great clues as to how the justices are thinking, but as we saw last year, you don't want to bet the farm based on oral argument, yeah, we saw in healthcare, with the chief justice joining the liberal justices to uphold the healthcare, after everyone thought it was going down. it certainly looked like there probably were five votes to overturn doma. the four more liberal justices, as we think of them, and justice anthony kennedy, who we think of as the swing vote, seemed to have real problems with the idea that the federal government with doma was telling states, you know, what to do about marriage.

>> with regard to justice anthony kennedy, does it all come down to him with the voting rights that's addressing the court right now, with that case? >> again, it's hard to tell, you know, for supporters of the voting rights act, if it comes down to justice kennedy, there's a sense the voting rights act could be in trouble. he's been skeptical in the past of race-based preferences and at the oral argument, again, with the caveat it's dangerous to make a lot of predictions based on the oral argument, he seemed very troubled by the idea that states and local governments would have to go to the federal government every time they wanted to get approval for something as simple as moving a polling place across the street. >> right. right. and this is complicated. i mean -- >> right. >> -- this goes back to 1965, right? >> yes. >> so what is the -- give us this in a nugget. what is at -- at issue here? >> sure. this is a challenge to something called section 5 of the voting

rights act, and back in 1965, to try to end discrimination in voting, one of the things that congress did was to say states and local governments, with a history of local -- of voting discrimination have to go to the federal government and get permission to make changes to their voting procedures and their voting laws. and that requirement has remained -- has remained over time. and many of the states and local governments who were covered by this requirement back in 1965 still have to comply with it now. and so, at the oral argument, some of the justices seemed troubled by justice kennedy by the idea this was an afront to states' rights. other justices, like the chief justice and samuel alito seemed troubled by the idea that maybe this -- maybe this requirement was no longer covering the states that needed to be required. the chief justice, for example, mentioned to the lawyer for the federal government, defending

the act, that mississippi now has a better voter turnout ratio for african-americans than massachusetts. but mississippi is required to comply with this preapproval requirement, and massachusetts isn't. >> very quickly, amy, wasn't the original intent only supposed to be in effect for, like, a handful of years, right? >> exactly. and so, over time, congress has extended it several times. most recently, in 2006 when it extended it for another 25 years. >> yeah, that's a long extension there. okay. amy howell, thank you so much. we'll look forward to seeing you again. >> thanks for inviting me. from outer space to the cold reality of global warming, you're going to see how nasa is charting the ravages of climate change on earth's icecaps, next. [ male announcer ] erica had a rough day. there was this and this. she got a parking ticket... ♪ and she forgot to pay her credit card bill on time. good thing she's got the citi simplicity card. it doesn't charge late fees or a penalty rate. ever.

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use caution when driving or operating machinery. common side effects include nausea, trouble sleeping and unusual dreams. with chantix and with the support system it worked for me. [ male announcer ] ask your doctor if chantix is right for you. rising temperatures and melting glaciers. they have scientists worried that coastal communities will some day be a think of the past. nasa's operation ice bridge is trying to make sure that doesn't

happen. nbc meteorologist dylan dreyer joins us now with more in a great story you have to share, dylan. >> it certainly is, alex. more than 75% of our freshwater comes from glaciers, and as the rate at which they melt continues, and the sea levels rise, shores could be at risk. it's been more than 40 years since they put a man on the moon. and now, through their mission, operation ice bridge, nasa's using lasers to measure icecaps and glaciers worldwide in hopes of protecting our beaches and shorelines for the future. >> the main driving reason behind this research is to monitor sea level rise as glaciers melt and provide additional freshwater to the oceans. >> reporter: chris larson is the principal investigator of the operation in alaska. >> on average, alaskan glaciers are melting about this much. we're talking two feet per year. surface lowering.

that all goes into the ocean. >> reporter: researchers say what happens in alaska doesn't necessarily stay in alaska. nasa's ice program monitors the environment and ecology here, and they say this could be a precursor of what could happen hundreds of years from now on a much larger scale. as the climate warms and glaciers thin, nasa says the sea level is rising at about one inch every eight years. while it's a slow process, all of this is important, because without proper planning, just five feet added to the sea level would flood almost all of miami and new orleans. many other parts of coastal communities across country would also see flooding. >> if you look at the worldwide distribution of humanity, we like the coast. it's something you plan for, not something you panic about. >> reporter: chris and his team of researcher s use gps tracki devices. >> the instrument itself is a

laser altimeter, a scanning system that sweeps a beam across the surface of the glacier as we travel over it with aircraft. >> reporter: and the surface elevation of more than 200 glaciers. glaciers exist because too much snow falls in one particular place. the snow flows down the mountain, turns into ice, and melts or breaks off into the ocean. but when more or less melting occurs than snowfall, the glacier becomes out of balance. >> it's a global phenomenon that affects all communities within close proximity to the sea level rise. >> reporter: something that operation ice bridge hopes to minimize around the world through their work in alaska. now, we should point out that at the current rate of sea level rise, it could take hundreds of years for coastal communities to be wiped out. but with proper planning, future generations, you can minimize the impact to homes and families. so it's, you know, not something you need to panic about now, but planning ahead, maybe move things back a little bit from

the immediate coastline, that's kind of what they're doing. >> well, talk about extraordinary pictures. thank you so much for bringing them to us. we want to go to alaska now. it's gorgeous. it's a catch 22, protecting americans against terrorists. the nation's top intelligence official defends the nsa and roger cressy talks about it next. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] for dad's first job as dad. nissan tests hundreds of child seats to give you a better fit and a safer trip. snug kids, only from nissan. ♪

welcome back to "weekends with alex witt. "nearly 16 months after the death of trayvon martin, jury selection begins at 9:00 a.m. tomorrow in the trial of george zimmerman, the man charged with killing him. let's go to nbc's kerry sanders who's monitoring the story from sanford, florida. hello to you, kerry. what are you hearing? >> reporter: hello, alex. 500 people have received jury summons to begin showing up tomorrow here at the courthouse. that's an unusually large number, which is reflective of the high-profile nature of this case. from that 500, probably over the next two weeks, it's expected they will eventually pick the

six jurors who will sit on this case. >> so your first name is george? >> yes, sir. >> reporter: during a videotaped police interview, 29-year-old george zimmerman admits he shot and killed 17-year-old trayvon martin. >> i grabbed my gun, and i aimed it at him, and fired one shot. >> reporter: but he has pled not guilty to second-degree murder. >> he said, yo, you got a problem? i turned around, i said, no, i don't have a problem, man. >> reporter: as george zimmerman walked the detectives through that february night, he acknowledges he shot trayvon martin. >> i grabbed my firearm and shot him one time. >> reporter: he admits he followed the 17-year-old that night. >> there's a real suspicious guy. >> reporter: in his probable cause affidavit, state prosecutors say trayvon martin was profiled by george zimmerman. >> i think the state has a weak case. i think they're trying to build a case of guilt upon my client when he acted in self-defense. >> reporter: the night of the shooting death, trayvon martin

had gone by a nearby 7-eleven to pick up an arizona iced tea and a bag of skittles. police say he was weeding a route through the neighborhood, headed back to his father's girlfriend's condo and despite what a police dispatcher said -- >> are you following him? >> yeah. >> okay, we don't need to you do that. >> reporter: -- the neighborhood watch leader followed on foot. then, there was a commotion and several residents called 911. >> 911, do you need police, fire, medical? >> reporter: no one saw who set off the confrontation. who was the aggressor? how was it george zimmerman's pistol ended up being fired? how did he sustain injuries to his head? >> you have george zimmerman who's alive, and trayvon martin who's dead, not here to tell his story. of course, he's going to blame the victim. >> reporter: trayvon martin's parents say all they've wanted is a day in court. >> this was a minor by any terms. it wasn't an adult and another adult, so trayvon thought as a 17-year-old, like, why is this guy following me?

>> reporter: while it may take two weeks or longer to pick a jury, all of the potential jurors ' identities will remain a secret by order of the judge. alex? >> yeah. kerry, mark o' mara has asked for a delay. any reaction to that? >> reporter: yes. there have been repeated requests for what they call in court a continuance, because he feels he needs more time because of evidence that was provided to him. he argues on a delayed schedule. in florida, they have a reciprocal discovery, which means that unlike perry mason moment, where there can be a surprise, in florida, the state and the defense gather all of their own evidence and then they swap it back and forth, so they know what's coming at each other. the defense has claimed here the state withheld some of that discovery till late in the game, and it's made it harder for them to prepare. but thus far, every time that the defense has requested a delay in the opening of the trial, the judge has ruled we're

moving forward. >> right. okay. nbc's kerry sanders in florida. thanks, kerry. george zimmerman has sued nbc universal, the parent company of this network, for defamation. the company has strongly denied his allegations. the revelations about the government's secret telephone and computer spying programs have created and uproar in the american public, but the outrage from inside the intelligence community has been just as loud over their tactics being compromised. my colleague andrea mitchell sat down with james clapper, director of national intelligence, for an exclusive interview. >> well, i think we're very, very concerned about it. for me, it is literally, not figuratively, literally gut-wrenching to see this hap n happen, because of the huge, grave damage it does to our intelligence capabilities. of course, for me, this is a key tool for preserving, protecting the nation's safety and security. so every one of us in the

intelligence community -- most -- particularly the great men and women of nsa -- are very -- are profoundly affected by this. >> how has it hurt american intelligence? >> well, while we're having this debate, discussion and all that media explosion, which, of course, supports transparency, which is a great thing in this country, but that same transparency has a double-edged sword, in that our adversaries, whether nation state adversaries, or nefarious groups, benefit from that same transparency. so as we speak, they are going to school and learning how we do this. and so, that's why it potentially has -- can render great damage to our intelligence capabilities. >> at the same time, when americans woke up and learned because of these leaks that every single telephone call made in the united states as well as elsewhere, but every call made by these telephone companies,

that they collect, is archived, the numbers -- just the numbers -- and the duration of these calls, people were astounded by that. they had no idea. they felt invaded. >> i understand that, but, first, let me say that i and everyone in the intelligence community, we're also citizens, also care very deeply about our privacy and civil liberties. i certainly do, so let me say that at the outset. i think a lot of what people are reading and seeing in the media is a lot of hyperbole. >> reporter: clapper says two plots were averted in 2009 because of the law permitting foreign e-mails to be intercepted. americans might say, yes, but terrorists succeeded in boston at the marathon, terrorists have succeeded elsewhere and not been thwarted, despite all of this thfgs that is gathered by nsa. >> well, that's true, and i find it a little ironic that several

weeks ago after the boston bombings, we were accused of not being sufficiently intrusive. we failed to determine the exact tipping point, when the brothers self-radicalized. and then, it was, we weren't intrusive enough. >> james clapper, director of national intelligence. for more, i'm joined by roger cressey, former deputy of national terrorism, as well as being a security adviser to presidents bill clinton and george w. bush. roger, good to see you as always. thanks for joining us. >> you, too, alex. >> so the party line for those defending these programs is they've been in place for years now, under two administrations, with few complaints from congress. the scale that we understand them to be now, though, is that the same it's been from the start? >> well, it's definitely gotten bigger over time. you just look at the proliferation of technology since 9/11, and the introduction of social media and just the multitude of new ways to communicate. so the intelligence community has a responsibility to look at that new technology and see, all

right, how can we do a better job to collect the intelligence necessary to do our -- do our job. and what we're seeing here, alex, is just the latest evolution in the privacy versus security debate. i was happy to hear director clapper say the transparency element of this is quite healthy, because it is. but again, the intelligence community is looking for a needle in a set of needles, and in this new world with the type of technology that's available, it's even tougher than it was before. >> well, james clapper noted that this e-mail surveillance program was used successfully to thwart two terror attacks in 2009, and that includes the new york city subway plot. but it didn't stop boston or other attacks. do you consider this a successful program? >> well, without a doubt. and whenever someone says, yeah, but you didn't stop that attack, there is nothing the government can do that can guarantee 100% protection or 100% success in stopping terrorist plots. it's simply impossible. all you can do is create a higher probability of identifying plotters and then stopping them before they can

conduct attacks. in the 2009 case, with the azazi attempt against the new york subway, there's no doubt it played an effect. as we have the debate, we need to understand we won't have the facts of what has happened behind closed doors, because it remains classified. >> right. as we talk about some level of transparency being a good thing, for the people on the inside of the intelligence agencies, how important is privacy to them in relation to stopping a terror attack? and when you are that close and you know that much, can you have perspective? >> without a doubt. in some respects, you have more perspective than people on the outside like us. when you're on the inside and you see the level of sophistication in terms of the type of information you can -- you can grab, the granularity of the information, you have a much healthier respect for the parameters, the privacy. what's funny, alex, anybody who defends these programs, it's implied they are not supporters of privacy, when the exact opposite is true.

privacy is so critical in kourpt terrorism -- counterterrorism, but it's that balance we're seeking to identify. >> okay. some people are calling the leaker a whistle-blower. james clapper is calling him a criminal who violated a sacred trust. where do you come down on that? >> well, a whistle-blower is someone who releases something to the press, and that something is -- implies wrongdoing, that the government is doing something wrong. what the government is doing is legal, lawful, there's oversight. we can debate whether or not the oversight is broad enough. the senate and the house intelligence committees are fully briefed on it. senator feinstein, congressman rogers, the two respective chairs, fully support this program. and the fisa court has to approve anytime nsa seeks to pull specific information out of the database. so there is oversight of it. the question, alex, i think, is this sufficient oversight in terms of what we're dealing with right now? and i think that debate is a healthy one. >> all right, roger cressey,

always a pleasure. thank you so much. >> you, too. thanks. what have congressional leaders have known about the surveillance? so i have this front porch. but it's really empty. so, my dad is making me these. i said i'd help. ah, so you're going to need some tools of your own. this battery will power over 50 tools. don't worry, i'll show you. in case i forget to say thank you. let's get together. grab some tools. and bring it in on budget. we did good. great job. now what? more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. this ryobi one+drill and impact driver combo kit, now just 99 bucks. there's a reason no one says "easy like monday morning." sundays are the warrior's day to unplug and recharge. what if this feeling could last all week? with centurylink as your trusted partner, it can. our visionary cloud infrastructure and global broadband network

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it's time for the "big three," and today's topic, what's the damage, what happens next, and this week's must-reads. let's bring in my "big 3" panel. rachel, martin frost, democrat from texas, and msnbc contributor robert tranum, and with a welcome to all of you, i'll start with you representative frost. you were on the inside, inside congress. what do you make of all of this? >> i take a lot of this pretty personally, alex. on the morning of 9/11, i was in a meeting on the capitol. if that plane had not been brought down by the passengers, the one that crashed in pennsylvania, i may not be here today. and, also, i knew personally the highest-ranking general killed on the attack in the pentagon,

lieutenant general tim mod. so i think you've got to do everything you can to prevent terrorism in this country. i think this -- the system they devised, while not perfect, is the least intrusive possible. and i would hope it goes forward. >> is it more damage to privacy, though? i mean, how does that weigh on you? >> you have to balance protecting our citizenry with privacy. if, for example, under this system, if they want to listen in to a particular call, then they've got to go back and get a search warrant to be able to listen in to this call. this is a collection of data. this is not listening in to particular calls. >> robert, your take on the damage to privacy. >> well, that's the million-dollar question is whether or not this is done in a reputable amount of damage done to privacy. when americans wake up and they read the newspaper that 4 billion phone calls have been intercepted or logged, you know, that raises a lot of questions. and the question then becomes, you know, how do you balance that with the national security interests of the country. but, also, from a constitutional standpoint, you look at the

fourth amendment, there are a lot of serious questions here. and so, you know, the question becomes, do you trust the administration, both republican and democrat, starting with george w. bush, and also with president obama, or do you trust your gut? and if your gut tells you that perhaps maybe big government or big brother is looking over your shoulder, well, you have to scratch your head there a little bit. >> rachel, in the end, who will win out here? the voices that say the surveillance crosses the line or the voices that say national security interests take precedence? >> alex, unless the political situation shifts dramatically, the voices that are saying the government needs to continue this surveillance will clearly win out. we're hearing some loud outrage on both the left and the right. but so far, not much in the middle. i think americans were surprised by these revelations last week, but americans want to be protected. and while they don't like the idea that the government is snooping into their lives, as long as they don't feel the government has crossed a line and is actually listening in on their conversations, as long as we're talking about things like

metadata, i think the desire to be protected and ward off any further terrorist attacks will win out over privacy. >> and the concept of listening into conversations, james clapper said, that's just absurd. they don't have the capacity nor the legal authority and it's not being done. anyway, moving done. a anyway, representative frost, listen to what governor udall said today. it's interesting. >> phone companies can't charge you, jail you, prosecute you, eventually incarcerate you. there's a different standard here. i expect the government to protect my privacy, and it feels like that isn't what's been happening. >> do you buy that this information is dangerous in the hands of government versus businesses? who have this information? >> alex, mark udall is one of my favorite senators. a good point. it's worth congressing taking another look at the way the progress is one bit i still come

down on the collection that this is important. times have changed. we have a lot more information available all through the internet and government has a role to play here. >> what kind of efforts, though, congressman -- do congress members take, or should they take, to find out what going on with these programs? it's been said not everybody attends hearings open to them, intelligence hearings? >> i read that in the paper and i was surprised. i think members of congress ought to take part in the briefings. we had a lot of briefings m s be 9/11, excuse me, not before 9/11 but before the launching troops into iraq intense saddam hussein, and members of congress didn't go to all of those briefings either. it's incumbent on members of congress to attend those briefings and if they have questions, raise them. >> after the leak, indications changes in the way things are carried out with these programs going forward? >> we don't know yet. the $1 million question.

whether the government feels it needs to change the way data is collected, or whatever the case. the real question is, will members of congress that have the oversight ask tougher questions and thus in the process hold the government on the executive branch accountable. end of the day, we just have to trust the officials that they're telling the truth and in the process that the press as well as members of congress are asking those tough questions and making sure all of these individuals are held accountable. >> rachel, up next first out of the break. a big chill in the air in today of big three must-reads. [ phil ] when you have joint pain and stiffness... accomplishing even little things can become major victories. i'm phil mickelson, pro golfer. when i was diagnosed with psoriatic arthritis, my rheumatologist prescribed enbrel for my pain and stiffness, and to help stop joint damage.

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we are back with the big three for this week's must-reads. rachel, you. what's yours? >> my must-read, a smart piece by my colleague josh looking at what will be the most immediate fallout from the revelations of the past weekend. more leak investigations. a quote from steven of aergood, saying you can almost hear the

polygraph machines warming up. look for many more leak investigations and dramatic developments on that front sure to come. >> just a warm-up. the title says. congressman frost? >> david ignatius' column in "the washington post" today. highly critic's of attorney general holder. long knives out, skins greased, he may be on the way out. >> really? you think so? even though the president steadfastly stood by him? >> no. you see unnamed democrats leading lawyers in town quoted, again, anonymously saying this guy's not up to the job. i think i'd take a close look on that in the next week or two. >> sounds like something to read. yours, robert? your must-read? >> mine is the political says there's chill in the air. from the president who said perhaps maybe these investigations to these leaks by the government with certain sources perhaps to put a chill in the air, a lot of journalists on the record saying all -- some of their sources are drying up because they're afraid of being

recorded by the government. a must-read in today's political. i encourage everyone to watch. >> all three, good stuff. thanks for bringing it. that is a wrap of this sunday edition of "weekends with alex witt." up next, richard lui standing on the sidelines there. have yourselves a great day. i want to make things more secure. [ whirring ] [ dog barks ] i want to treat more dogs. ♪ our business needs more cases. [ male announcer ] where do you want to take your business? i need help selling art. [ male announcer ] from broadband to web hosting to mobile apps, small business solutions from at&t have the security you need to get you there. call us. we can show you how at&t solutions can help you do what you do... even better. ♪

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we constantly monitor the web so if any of your personal information is misused, we're on it. ♪ ow. [ male announcer ] call 1-800-lifelock or go to lifelock.com today. a good sunday to you. and i'm richard lui in for kcrag melvin. here's what's happening. >> we're trying to minimize the invasions of privacy, keep them to an absolute minimum and only focus on targets that really pose a threat. >> the top u.s. intelligence chief declassified details about the government surveillance program. james clapper pushing for a criminal investigation how this first leaked out. plus, a new republican endorsement of the senate gang of eight's immigration plan and