(girl) w(guy) dive shop.y? (girl) diving lessons. (guy) we should totally do that. (girl ) yeah, right. (guy) i wannna catch a falcon! (girl) we should do that. (guy) i caught a falcon. (guy) you could eat a bug. let's do that. (guy) you know you're eating a bug. (girl) because of the legs. (guy vo) we got a subaru to take us new places. (girl) yeah, it's a hot spring. (guy) we should do that. (guy vo) it did. (man) how's that feel? (guy) fine. (girl) we shouldn't have done that. (guy) no. (announcer) love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. and a good sunday to you. i'm richard lui in for craig melvin. new information on the surveillance program and new reaction from lawmakers as well. that debates heats up. also ahead -- >> until you see justice being done, until you see accountability in the system you

might you're not going to change the culture. it's a culture problem from top to bottom and that's why you need to see a shift. >> a spike in 35% of assaults over just the past two years in assaults in the military. a takedown on the tennis court. a protester interrupts the french open. not for very long. start with political headlines first. the discord over newly reviewed nsa surveillance tactics continues today. mike rogers defended the government program saying they have led to thwarted terror attempts. >> one of the things we're charged with is keeping america safe and keeping our civil liberties and privatesy intact. i think we've done both in this particular case. >> however, democrat mark udall, who sits on the senate intelligence committee voiced concern saying some intelligence collected through surveillance might violate privacy concerns unnecessarily.

>> look, this is the law, but the way the law's been interpreted concerns me. in a separate way. that's what i've been calling for. full disclosure how this law is applied. this isn't a scandal, but this is deeply concerning to me and a lot of americans. >> arizona senator john mccain has returned from his trip to guantanamo bay. he traveled there with white house chief of staff denis mcdonough and democrat senator dianne feinstein and said on cnn today he thinks the country is ready to close the prison facility. >> i think that most americans are more ready than they were some years ago. by the way, it cost $1.5 million per inmate per year to keep them in guantanamo. i think my fiscal conservatives friends be interested in that. >> this morning, offering perspective on washington gridlock. john dingell on friday became the longest serving member of

congress in history. a record of 57 years, 5 months, 26 days. >> i said the other day, i wasn't sure we could pass the ten commandments in this place. money has become a curse in this place because everybody's chasing money all the time, and the result -- troop in the senate, too -- the result is this place is simply locked up. >> after a weekend of talks about north korea, cyber security and, of course, some golf, president obama wrapped up his trip to california with chinese preft xi jinping. for from palm springs wrt good afternoon. president obama is heading back to washington, d.c. at this hour after wrapping up a two-day summit with the new chinese president xi jinping. the goal, restart the relationship with china. they held this summit at the annenberg estate aiming to

foster a more candid conversation wit relaxed setting. of course, contentious issue was at the root of these talks which lasted for roughly eight hours over those two days. cyber security really took center stage. u.s. officials believe that the chinese have stolen billions of dollars in intellectual property from the united states over the past several years. chinese officials consistently denied those claims. president obama raised the issue with his chinese counterpart, but president xi did not acknowledge any culpability saying that china will have to deal with this issue moving forward and if they don't it could hurt the u.s./china relationship. take a listen. >> if it's not addressed, if there continues to be this direct theft of the united states property, that this was going to be a very difficult problem in the economic relationship, and was going to be an inhibitor to the relationship really reaching its full potential. >> reporter: now, the two

leaders did find some common ground. both agreeing that north korea has to denuclearize. richard, back to you. >> kristen welker with the president. thank you so much. also today, new calls to pring the military sexual assault crisis under control. senator kristen gillibrand wants the prosecution of sexual assault cases taken away from military commanders. >> we want to do with a number of allies, what they've done. israel, the uk, other allies with fight side-by-side with. they have removed the serious crime, rapes, murders, sexual assault outside of the chain of command into trained military prosecutors. >> all right. let's bring in former marine captain bernice armour, the first female african-american combat pilot. thank you for being with us today. when you take a look at what has been happening so far, will taking prosecutions as was mentioned by the senator out of the chain of command help to solve the problem? >> i think taking it out of the chain of command is a huge step

forward, because right now we don't have the respect, the culture has to totally be changed, and if the assailant just so happens to be in your chain of command, how do we have our commanding officers actually taking it forward? you know, i have faith in our leadership and i understand our leadership, but right now it's broken. >> i also want to bring in former pennsylvania democrat congressman patrick murphy. patrick was also the first veteran of the iraq war to serve in congress and now an msnbc contributor. congressman, thanks for being with us. let me ask you this. you know, the numbers, just looking at the numbers. troubling. you're probably familiar with them, both of you. 26,000 military sexual assault incidents reported in 2012. more than 1,700 service members charged, 238 convicted. just look at those ratios there, patrick. what does that say about the military's ability to prosecute these crimes? >> sure. only 1% of the cases, richard, are going to trial.

which is unacceptable. you know, to me, the amount of sexual assaults, 7,000, numbers going up, and the military said the right things the last few years but we need action. i mean, this is a cancer in our military. so i would agree with the captain. i do think it's now time to follow senator gillibrand's bill, independent from the chain of command, still stay with military justice but it would be independent from the military command and i think that's an important step forward, and one that i support. >> speaking of that, captain, in your time, in the military, and in using your own discretion here, please did you or somebody you know face sexual assault as has been described in this case so far? >> unfortunately, yes. i've had numerous friends who have been victims of sexual assault and one is actually a senior -- one of the senior enlisted women in the armed services and gang raped by three

folks when she was recruited. so she -- and she didn't report it. why? because she made a decision in that moment, i can report it now, and get backlash, or i can serve honorably and be in a position to make a difference, and she's actually doing her dissertation on sexual assault in the military. this is a problem that's been going on a very long time. she's not the only friend that i've had that this has happened to. so we have to -- >> how many would you say? >> say that again? >> how many would you say, captain? >> how many friends of mine have been assaulted? >> yes. >> at least five to eight that i personally know of that have actually spoken to me about it, but it's so und reported. it's even growing male on male. it's an issue unfortunately we haven't dealt with well in our chain of command and in our leadership, and it's prey pg on our young. 18 to 24, when they are not able to really make the best decision-making. research shows that.

so it's time to start actually doing something. >> good point. congressman what about you? >> richard, i had to try these cases as a prosecutor, and i also had other soldiers who came to me in confidence. women soldiers. young women who came to me and told me about their issues, and i will tell you that the people who are the perpetrators in these instances are scum, and that's why this is a cancer within our military, and that's why folks like myself, we are advocating a change. not just to make it independent from the chain of command, but also to make sure these victims, richard, aren't treated as perpetrators. these victims should receive immunity, the support that they need, and the confidence to go forward. they did nothing wrong. they were the victims here and we need to remember that from the get-go. >> now, captain, i want to play a little bit of sound for you. here's what defense secretary chuck hagel had to say about the crisis at west point's commencements in may. listen to that.

>> sexual harassment and the sexual assault in the military of a profound betrayal. a profound betrayal of sacred oaths and sacred trusts. disxu d d this scourge must be stamped out. >> how can this be done without changing the culture of the military which remains so strong and important? >> it can't be done without changing the culture. that's exactly what needs to be changed. leaders have to be held accountable. america trusted its sons and daughters to our military and more apt to be sexual assaulted in combat than killed. so changing the culture is exactly what's needed. respect and enforcement of whatever law we enact or new thing we do, but we have to take action, and not let people off the hook and not protect careers for people down the line. it's not about a career. it's about a life. >> patrick? >> richard, i would say, i was there at west point when

secretary hagel gave that speech. it is against the current culture of the military what these people are doing, and that's why we have to make sure that we are being even more aggressive. that's why the systemic changes that the captain and i are arguing for, where it's independent, would make a huge difference, but heads need to roll. we just had a commander, in the japan command, just fired within the last 48 hours. >> who needs to -- go? and how high? >> well, we'll see now that secretary hagel is in there, he's got to say the numbers better change, dramatically change fast, because the buck stops here. >> finally, i want to play a little bit from what senator gillibrand told cbs this morning about how high the stakes are. >> this is not just a woman's issue. more than half of the victims are men. this is a problem that is corrosive, that's undermining the integrity of the whole military, and is undermining our military readiness.

>> captain, quickly. how damaging has this been? >> when we talk about unit cohesion, es predecor and army strong, whatever army metaphor we want to use, knowing you can actually trust your leadership and something be done and people held accountable, if we don't have trust, we don't have anything. >> congressman? >> we do -- we operate in small units and need to make sure we honor that sacred trust. i served with gillibrand on the armed services committee in the house. she is diligent, smart, and a leader. he colleague in the senate, john mccain, said it best when he said, and no one -- i disagree with john mccain on syria and other things in iraq, but when john mccain came out in that hearing and said, he had a young woman say can you give your unqualified support? he said, i'm not sure if i can do that now. that sent shock waves across the military, and i know -- i agreed with him, although i am

confident that the president and secretary hagel and the leadership finally have gotten the message and they know that time is short to act and act now. >> all right. former marine captain, thank you for being with us, and former congressman patrick murphy. appreciate both of your times. bernice armey, thank you. and leaving governor christie with a difficult decision, calling for a special election. what that means for the fall race and his presidential pro prospects. and how they feel even before going to court. is making me these. i said i'd help. ah, so you're going to need some tools of your own. this battery will power over 50 tools. don't worry, i'll show you. in case i forget to say thank you. let's get together. grab some tools. and bring it in on budget. we did good. great job.

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have an elected person in the united senator and i will do whatever i need to do to make sure those costs are covered ball awe the people in the state will benefit from it and we're not going to be penny foolish in this here. >> the special election to replace senator lawsonberg will be held in october despite the expense of not waiting until election day to hold the contest a month after that. what was behind that move? bob engel, author of the new book "chris christie: the inside story of his rise to power." what you wrote, straight to a quote pup say the general feeling is about keeping newark mayor cory booker off the november 5 ballot with christie. if he were on the november 5 ballot, the thinking goes, booker would attract more democratic voters than would be voting otherwise, and many would

vote for buono. christie would be denied a landslide victory that could boost his credentialed to be the gop's presidential nomination in 2016. is that what's in mind? >> i can't read a mind. i don't really know. people who observe the governor think had will work out in his favor because he'll be able to go to the national republicans, audacity to hug the president, except he didn't really hug the president, and say, look, i won by huge landslide in democratic state and can raise money from democrats and republicans. who else do you have that can do that? >> well, when you look at christie himself, and we have cory booker now, right, running for -- >> as of yesterday. uh-huh. >> what's their relationship? >> they seem to have a good working relationship. and i covered that announcement yesterday, and i noticed that

booker is saying some of the same kind of things that christie's been saying. saying we need have the big picture in washington. hold on to our principles but at the saum time time be able to compromise. contactually what christie's saying, too. >> also very different politicians? >> they have similarities. one's republican, one's democrat. one tends to be more conservative than the other. but they're also very popular. they have this touch for the common people. people adore both of them. so i think they have a lot of similarities. >> say that is the tactic about having the special election in october. does it really buy him that extra difference that you've described? >> i think it would, and -- because i think what's going to happen now, we're going to pay more attention now to the senate race than the governor's race. in my cree, i've never seen that happen before, more interest in the senate race. so while it's going on between now and october, we'll be paying

a lot of attention to it. not so much attention being paled to the governor's race and i think the democratic turnout will be less for the governor's race. >> you talked about that popularity, and there's a new nbc news/"wall street journal" poll. show you the numbers. 41% of americans view christie positively. 12% negative. i guess the rest are in-between. >> uh-huh. >> and it's equally strong marks from across the political spectrum. 43% of democrats viewing him favorably, and favorably in that. how did he get to this point as a republican being seen so positively by democrats? >> i think people like his style. i think they like a guy who just says what's on his mind, mostly. also he -- he has this touch. he just has this touch for talking to regular people. >> so he's running? >> i think he is. >> what would keep him from running? >> i can't think of anything that would, but anything can happen between now and the time that he would have to announce.

>> all right. bob engel. thank you for sptopping by. appreciate your time. >> thank you. coming up, a group of u.s. officials just returned from guantanamo bay, cuba, including senator mccain. why he said the time is now to close the prison. accomplishing even little things can become major victories. i'm phil mickelson, pro golfer. when i was diagnosed with psoriatic arthritis, my rheumatologist prescribed enbrel for my pain and stiffness, and to help stop joint damage. [ male announcer ] enbrel may lower your ability to fight infections. serious, sometimes fatal events including infections, tuberculosis, lymphoma, other cancers, nervous system and blood disorders, and allergic reactions have occurred. before starting enbrel, your doctor should test you for tuberculosis and discuss whether you've been to a region where certain fungal infections are common. you should not start enbrel if you have an infection like the flu. tell your doctor if you're prone to infections, have cuts or sores, have had hepatitis b, have been treated for heart failure,

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day. where do you fit there? research into technology's effect on behavior and the brain is in its early stages, but some scientists and doctors say heavy media use can lead to problems with attention span and concentration. up next, nelson mandela remains hospitalized. who came to visit him today, and the latest on his condition. and gideon's army. a federal mandate said suspects are entitled to legal representation. but what kind of counsel are they truly getting 50 years later? we talked to the maker of the film who's asking that very question. you will lose 3 sets of keys 4 cell phones 7 socks and 6 weeks of sleep but one thing you don't want to lose is any more teeth. if you wear a partial, you are almost twice as likely to lose your supporting teeth. new poligrip and polident for partials 'seal and protect' helps minimize stress, which may damage supporting teeth, by stabilizing your partial. and 'clean and protect' kills odor-causing bacteria.

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months. other stories making news, nbc news can confirm the identity of the deadly shooting at a santa monica californian college. he was wearing all black, armed with an ar-15-style assault rifle and 20 loaded high-capacity magazines. police now confirming that he began his rampage at his father's home killing both his father and brother before setting the house on fire. zawahri went on a shooting spree killing three other. the last of which died earlier today. the gunman was shot and killed by police on the scene. the george zimmerman murder trial set to tomorrow. lawyers are expected to begin questioning hundreds of potential jurors. george zimmerman appeared in court yesterday for a pretrial hearing. he faces charges of second-degree murder in the killing of 17-year-old trayvon martin. george zimmerman has pled not guilty, and is claiming self-defense. and take a look at this. a shirtless man with a flare.

running on to the court in the middle of the men's final of the french open today. rafael nadal walking out of the way. security stopped him, put out the flames and him. play resumed. rather rafael nadal won. didn't phase him. and the legal system may be letting you go. gideon versus wainwright, gideon defendants have a right to counsel even when they cannot afford it. do the poor have adequate representation in court? a new documentation examines that very question. >> the judge is going to tell you that the state fails to prove their case. it is your duty, you must acquit. >> the hbo documentary film "gideon the army" debuts monday july 1st on hbo. don porter is the film's director, and producer, joining us here on msnbc on a sunday.

thank you, and dawn, are the poor getting adequate representation? >> you know, it depends. sadly, it depends on where you live, and what kind of lawyer you've got. but overall, i think most poor people can be justifiably concerned about the representation they're getting. >> are you saying more often than not they are not getting the proper representation? >> i think more often than not, the lawyers that serve indigent defendants, serve poor people. 80% of people arrested in this country are represented by public defenders. so if we don't support, train and adequately pay public defenders and give them the resources they need, it's very difficult for them to do their jobs, even if they want to do a great job. >> why aren't they able to do a good job? >> you know, i don't want to suggest in any way they're not able to do a good job. i think what happens is, when you're given so many cases, so, for example, in miami we just you a really revolutionary state

court decision allowing public defenders no the to take cases anymore, because there are so many cases that they represent. a public defender in miami was representing 500 felony cases at a time, in addition to 250 misdemeanor cases at a the time. >> what happens when you have 500 cases on your docket? >> think about that. i don't know what you'd do for work every day, or what most people do for work every day, but they probably don't vice president 500 people who are looking to them for one -- looking to one person to save their lives. >> and these are not simple cases. clearly, not simple cases. >> they're not simple cases, and when combine the fact you've got many, many cases and public defenders are, indigent defendants are looking at minimum mandatory sentences, in georgia, if you are convicted of armed robbery, regardless of amount, regardless of the weapon, a minimum 10 years in prison. stakes are really, really high.

>> thee public defenders usually don't make a lot of money. >> they don't. on average, 10% to 20% less than prosecutors. when you couple -- >> are we talking $30,000, $40,000? >> depends what staty live in. in some states,s 45ds,000, $5,000, may up to $60,000. most have incredible student loan debt. if you have $100,000 in student loan debt, $50,000 or $60,000, not otherwise a terrible salary, does not go very far. >> law school can be very, very expensive, over three years. how many may have been found guilty because of this problem, this dynamic? >> we can't keep statistics on how many people have been found guilty improperly, but we do know that 95% of people who are charged with a crime in this country plead guilty. to something. so if you think about that, if you think about who is arrested, it's usually poor and minority people. most people, when you hear, you have the right to an attorney, assume that you're getting your

day in court, but a jury's going to determine if you did the thing the state said. what's really happening is that most people are afraid of minimum mantder to sentences and will plead guilty to avoid a lengthy prison term. >> that number is very high than it might be otherwise? >> that's right. only 5% of scrim nall defendants are actually getting to court. >> staggering statistics. what about prosecutors? not making much more and also have a large number of cases. for instance, in miami, an assistant state attorney earns, pretty much in the same space you're talking about. abouts 40 $s 40,000. >> the difference for prosecutors, i was careful and interested in not blaming prosecutors or judges. they're part of the system as well. the difference between a prosecutors and a defense lawyer, the prosecutor makes all the decisions about which is kas go to court. so the prosecutor controls their docket. they can decide not to bring certain cases. a defense lawyer, except in miami, we'll see how that law plays out, a defense lawyer does

not have that option. if you are a public defender and assigned a case, you must represent that person. that's why we have staggering case loads. >> what's the reasonable next stop to solve this problem? >> i think we should really be looking at minimum mandatory sentences. we had a get tough on crime philosophy in this country that may have gone too far. so the united states arrests more people, has more people in prison than any other country in the world. we arrest 12 to 13 million people a year. we have 2.5 million in prisons. so those are staggering numbers. we have more people in prison that china, nan all the european countries. so i don't think that that's the statistic. i don't think that's what we want to be known for. i think we want to be known for justice and i don't think we're doing that right now. >> four times the population of the united states, china. filmmaker dawn porter, thank you so much. >> thank you for having me. >> good to see you. a lot to talk about. straight to our brain trust on

this sunday. we have esther arma hosts "wake-up call" on wbia radio. bob franken, syndicated columnist for king feature and robert costa, washington editor at the national review. all good friends of ours. good to see you. senator john mccain among a group of officials that just returned from the detention center guantanamo bay. the senator saying it's time to shut the facility down. >> i think that most americans are more ready than they were some years ago. by the way, it costs $1.5 million per inmate per year to keep them in guantanamo. i think my fiscal conservative friends might be interested in that. >> robert, to your readers, is there enough imp 'tis now that might see this facility shut down? >> it's a great question, richard. there is a growing consensus on the left and right to close gitmo but a lot of resistance

back in the senators' home states who really wants to house these prisoners? where will they go? who will pay for it? the looming questions. >> bob, what's different now? the president has hit this drum before. did not work out but we're in a different year, different time? >> we are, but the big question remains, as robert pointed out, what do you do with the ones left? when i first started covering this at the beginning, they ended up with almost 800 detainees as they call them, prisoners of war is what we insisted on calling them. they're down to, what, 169? something like that. but these are hard-core cases. cases that might not fit into a trial under american jurisprudence or because they don't have an acceptable country to go to. that is still the big problem. >> go ahead, esther? you want to pipe in? >> the big issue what the two gentlemen mentioned, which is, where do they go? a little reported story by the associated press was that the house armed services committee just passed a new restrictionry

the ndaa, national defense authorization act actually prohibiting money for alternative facilities, and that is the big question, because on the one hand there's the politics of whether the country is behind closing guantanamo bay and there's a growing consensus. on the other hand, the politics. so john mccain says i believe that the consensus is there to close gitmo, but just this week the first vote, house armed services committee passed that in order to prevent what was made available to create the alternative to put the people in gitmo. politics say, yes, close it down. but the practical right, behind the political scenes, stops action. >> and one other thing to put in the mix, that is the hunger strike by the inmates there. >> absolutely. >> captured everybody's imagination. >> move on to the next subject. to our brain trust.

it's sunday. members of congress hitting the talk show circuit. the nsa surveillance, a big story we've been talking about over the last week. listen to senator rand paul and what he said on fox. >> get a warrant, go after a terrorist or a murderer or a rapist, but don't troll through 1 billion phone records every day. that is unconstitutional, it invades or privacy and i'm going to be seeing if i can challenge this at the supreme court level. >> robert, might this happen? mipt might it go to the supreme court? >> rand paul in a long time, a libertarian republican will probably bring this to the supreme court. the battle within the republican peart is interesting about the nsa leaks. the republican peart doesn't really have a consensus where they want to go. still there are people who think such as john mccain these programs for surveillance and the process for surveillance are appropriate. and they made that argument this morning on the sunday shows. >> as we saw. esther, we've seen mixed responses on both sides. >> we have. what's interesting is that this

leak comes at the back of the speech that the president made at the council for foreign relations, talking about ending the mind-set that created war, and the mind-set is around the perception that you are constantly under threat by external forces and yet having made the speech that was loaded for its attention to the detail about the mind-set that created war, you then have a leak that is about, quote/unquote, protecting citizens of the united states of america. but actually, the mind-set to maintain that and top have the public defend that is this idea of feeling that you're threatened enough that you need to be protected. >> this definitely resonates, bob, with americans across the country. we've all got phones. we all use computers. this is what makes us different. >> i mentioned one thing. nbc is not attaching itself to this story yet but the guardian is identifying the person it says is the source, because the source whose name the guardian says is edward snowden considers himself a whistle-blower and

wanted to make himself public. as for how this story resonates, interesting to me when president obama basically said, we have choices to make. i think that it's really more like, one of those pharmaceutical commercials where you have the announcer talking about the prescription drug privateside, let's call it, saying that this is the prescription against deadly terrorism and then you come up with all the side effects, which could also harm the country in many significant ways. >> as that is happening, move ogan squeeze it in with the time we've got, esther. answer this. we've seen the president in california. >> yes. >> meeting with the chine ooepz president, xi jinping. productive. however, the issue of cyber security and cyber hacking, where they're very far apart. as the president looks at his foreign diplomatic platform, how does that work in to what he has to get downdomestically?

>> the idea we're talking about -- talking about the notion of china pulling back in terms of its cyber security, even as there's a leak in our expanded issues around security and the citizens of the united states, and so whilst both sides talked about break throughs over this particular meeting, may 31st to june 6th, there is still a big question what does the protection mean for both sides and hour citizens going to fight that notion? >> net positive? >> i think they're willing to engage with china. 1972, a big issue with richard nixon opening china, engaging with china. much lesser issue with the pret this year. lessen the hostilities between china and the united states, especially in krib crewer security that can be good. >> playing golf this time, not ping-po ping-pong. brain trust returns with reaction to the latest republican endorsements of the gang of eight's immigration plan from the senate, but will border

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we are back with our brain trust. esther, and bob and robert still with us. bob, we left it all with you. let's move the subject to immigration reform. the big news today was senator kelly ayotte now signing on. now the sixth r to say, yes, i am going to support the immigration bill as it stands right now. let's listen to what she said. >> i've looked at this very carefully. our immigration system is completely broken. we've got 11 million people living in this country illegally in the shadows. a legal immigration system that isn't meeting our needs to grow our economy. i looked at this careful. this is a thoughtful bipartisan solution to a tough problem. that's why i'm going to support it. >> and it shows her support is border security. a vote that was in play.

did this surprise you, bob? >> well, it didn't surprise me, because i think that the republicans certainly recognized that they have a political problem, and are looking for a way to somehow turn the tables a little bit on the hispanic, you know, the hispanic problem, that they have, but it's influential, because she was not one of the gang of eight. so this could bring others with her. >> right. the six here, esther, now the question is, is this bill filibuster-proof? looks less so because of the fact there are six republicans behind it, and most of the democrats minus maybe a couple, two or three, get on board with this, this is going to move through tuesday through the week and forward to debate. is this positive for supporters? >> i mean, i think there is definitely an issue with the ratcheting up around border pa contropa trol.

interesting, able to doll with immigration what she does not dot with gun safety legislation. on board's in a way she was not there. >> why? >> political incenincentive, an potential to lose votes because of the power of the latino, latina caucus when it comes to the republicans, and they saw how clearly they lost in the general election. that particular vote. so that's an issue for the republicans, where they see it, the potential to gain specific points where they floft othlost. >> key to the congressional hispanic caucus, key to the congressional asian caucus as well, robert costa, the chair on earlier talking about some of the issues that are key to that community. when you look at the pathway to citizenship, which she did bring up, that is also -- there is important distinctions. the pathway is comfortable to most poll respondents if you include the penalties and all the caveats. remove that and then the support goes away.

how might this bubble up as we move forward in the senate? >> you see, kelly ayotte is coming out this morning in blessing the gang of eight's bill. showing it's moving towards 60 votes in the senate, filibuster-proof, maybe up towards 70 votes in the senate. the real problem when you look at the path of legalization, if this bill passes the senate it's going to come to a house republican conference that's very resistant. they still think a path to legalization in any form is amnesty and that could trip up the entire bill that word came out in session this weekend as we know. finally to you, bob franken. rand paul saying, come to me. let's talk about what the real middle is, the real middle is in the house. so those who are in the gang of eight in the house, come to talk to rand paul. is that what needs to happen? >> i think rand paul hopes it does. you know, he needs all the pub lysle lysi publicity he can get. border security is whatever you

define it to be. >> do we get 70? >> i don't know. it's going to be a battle, no question. part of the challenge is that the critics are saying they're going back to the 1986 ronald reagan bill and ronald reagan b saying that created this amnesty. >> strong parallels. 1986, 1996, 1990, all sorts of different benchmarking that can be used in this debate going forward. our brain trust returns with their sneak peeks. we have got that when we return. it starts with little things. tiny changes in the brain.

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monday is the 50th anniversary of the equal pay act. the pay gap persists. joann reed writing in the gree owe, 50 years later arks lot has changed for women in the work place. they still earn less than men that perform the very same jobs. while the wage gap has shrunk, it remains high, particularly for women of color.

we have esther arms, bob franklin, robert costa. we left off with you, robert. we have 77 cents on the dollar in 2012. does this affect those of color more than those who are not? >> it is really distressing if those are the statistics. this was past in 1963, part of jfk's new frontier program. 50 years on, it is clear there are some problems remaining in the work place. you think congress is paying attention. you hope they are. i think it is something we all should be paying attention to as the journalists. >> what is are headline? >> the new frontier at 50, equal pay act continues 50 years later but some problems remain. >> bob? >> well, i'm sort of stuck on the 77% pay gap there. i am sort of a 23% empty kind of guy. my headline would be, equal pay act at 50, still hollow after all these years.

>> how many more years, you think? >> well, one would think after 50 years, we would have achieved parity. the answer is, who knows? >> my headline is, equal pay schma. the famous struggle continues. to speak to the point literally walmart in arkansas is having annual convention. the fight is continuing in all forms. are the politicians paying attention? >> no, they are not. >> what kind of forms? >> with walmart, low wage workers, fast food workers communities of color, minorities. they are strategizing, exploring all the ways in which they can agitate and perform activism in order to fight for the kind of

justice they have been denied since the equal pay act was passed. >> maybe since it is almost certain the next president will be a woman and we will find it then. >> either that or the president will get 77% of $450,000 a year. >> robert costa, i imagine you want to respond to that. >> i'm not so sure secretary xl clinton is the presumptive candidate that is going to win the presidency next time. one issue this brings up 50 years later. where in the campaign in 2016, in 2014, will discussions of equal pay at work be brought up? it wasn't brought up in 2012. we will see 50 years later if it can become morrell vanity. >> let me point out real quickly, robert. i was just going to say there are other women that might be running. >> robert is going to be on the

national review cruise? are you going to be there? >> i think it is more fun. >> all three, our brain trust today. thank you for watching. i'm richard lui in for craig melvin. >> up next, disrupt with karen finney. you have a great sunday afternoon. [ whirring ] [ dog barks ] i want to treat more dogs. ♪ our business needs more cases. [ male announcer ] where do you want to take your business? i need help selling art. [ male announcer ] from broadband to web hosting to mobile apps, small business solutions from at&t have the security you need to get you there. call us. we can show you how at&t solutions can help you do what you do... even better. ♪ (announcer) scottrade knows our. and invest their own way. with scottrade's smart text, i can quickly understand my charts, and spend more time trading. their quick trade bar lets my account follow me online so i can react in real-time.

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look the samsung galaxy s4. phones it's like what i've got. look how big the screen is! that is big. and, walmart will give you a $50 gift card when you get the phone. sold! get the latest smart phones on t-mobile's nationwide 4g network, and get a $50 gift card. walmart. thanks for disrupting your afternoon. i'm karen finney. let's get to it. >> let's start with that's leaks that are coming about. >> we have a government that appears to target people based on their political belief. >> the american people have just lost their faith in president obama and his administration. >> president obama has in some ways added incredible oversight mechanisms to this. >> the concern is republicans can make a huge mistake. a, it is mischaracterizing what is happening. >> he was armed with a 223 semi-automatic similar to an

ar-15. >> he was scanning there. >> yesterday's shootings left five individuals dead and one with a very grim prognosis. >> there was blood from the entrance down the stairs of the library and there was a body on the left-hand side. >> a lot of what people are reading and seeing in the media is a lot of hyperbole. >> i don't want my phone records being given to an administration i can't trust. >> there are no records of abuse. >> nobody is listening to your telephone calls. we've got breaking news on the nsa leak investigation. a 29-year-old man claiming to be the source of those documents has come forward in an interview with the british newspaper "the guardian." we'll bring you that story in a moment. i'm going to begin with this. it has been 53 days since gun safety legislation failed in the u.s. senate. it has been 177 days since the

december massacre in newtown. in that time, more americans have been victims of gun violence than were killed during the nine years of the iraq war. now, the violence continues. i'm going to tell you about a terrifying 13 minutes in santa monica, california, friday. just before noon, residents reported hearing gunshots at a neighborhood home that was then set on fire. moments later, a gunman brandishing an ar-15 style assault weapon, additional weapons and a bag containing 1300 rounds of ammunition then car jacked a passerby. the shooting spree finally ended when this suspect was killed on the campus of santa monica college. just moments ago, we learned that the death toll has actually risen to 5 as a young woman succumbed to her wounds. four others were wounded.

two people were killed and at least 16 wounded in chicago friday night. according to the local nbc affiliate, wmaq. in prescott valley, arizona, authorities say a 4-year-old boy accidentally shot an killed his 35-year-old father who happened to be a former green beret and iraq veteran. the boy apparently found a gun and accidentally fired it. let's be very, very clear about the impact of a shooting rampage like the one in santa monica. to the people who lived through it, it is an act of terror. president obama in april called it a shameful day in washington after the senate voted down even the most minimal gun safety legislation, a five-minute background check for gun purchasers. while many in washington seem to have stopped the conversation on gun safety, we know that that conversation is continuing all across america. so i'm going to bring in my

guest, atlanta mayor, kassim reed and mike glaze, who runs, mayors against illegal guns. thanks for your time. >> nice to be with you. >> thank you. >> i want to is start with an e-mail joe biden sent out on friday attempting to try to restart the conversation. it strikes me, that's one start. what is it going to take for the rest of washington to listen? i'm going to start with you, mayor? >> i think it is going to take a determined dialogue. our thoughts are with the victims from santa monica. we are in a situation that as long as people who don't want any changes fight as hard as they are fighting and continue to win, we're going to see tragedy after tragedy. so the president really was correct in his assertion at the

time, that real change is only going to come from us. one of the things that mayors against illegal guns is doing is taking it to cities across the united states of america and looking to cities and local communities to carry this fight forward. we really just need to understand we are going to be involved in a sustained, tough, long laborious effort to achieve results. it is going to take time. mr. mayor, to that point, we have seen more action at the state and local level frankly. presumably, that is because the expectation is that washington may not be able to get this done. mark, i want to come to you. is that where the strategy goes next or how do we reignite this conversation in washington? is it a two-track strategy at this point? >> that's exactly right, karen. it is a two-track strategy. we know that states have always been a better path to victory.

why is that? because state legislators meet the victims and survivors of gun violence. this is more personal for them than members of congress. over the course of the past six months since newtown, we have passed really good legislation in colorado. we may pass it in nevada unless governor sandoval vetoes it. we passed it delaware and maryland and more in other places. i think we will get another vote in the senate and i think we will win next time because 33 more americans are murdered every time. >> how are you going to be able to get it to come back up for a vote in the senate when someone who was watching the sunday talk shows this weekend, there was not a single word about gun violence, gun safety, any of these measures? how are you going to create that sort of sense of urgency back in washington? >> first of all, because members of congress ultimately do tend to respond to what people want. background checks, for example, is one of those 90/10 issues. i don't think congress can

continue to resist something 90% of the public wants. 33% more american are murdered every day with guns, separate from the 50 or 60 that die because of suicide or accidents with guns. as long as that death toll continues to mound, the pressure on senators and the house is going to continue to mound as well. there will be another mass shooting. we know there will be. >> mr. mayor, lawmakers like mark pryor say they are listening to the constituency. to the point that mark was just making, that just is not true. how much of this is really about the g the gun lobby? >> we all know how strong the gun lobby is. there is something very important, this happening in america right now. that is, people who are forward thinking and the overwhelming majority of americans who support lawful background checks understand this is a scorecard issue. the people voting against

reasonable gun reform and violence are now going to be judged. more and more, a voting record inline with the gun lobby is going to be a more damaging trait or characteristic than the future. as you know, folks used to be able to vote however they wanted on issues related to gun violence. there really was no real political consequence at the ballot. that is changing radically in the united states of america, largely because of the work of mayors against illegal guns. really, because what has happened at newtown, at aurora, and now in santa monica. these folks that are voting in the interest of the gun lobby, i think, are going to be held to account at the ballot and are going to address concerns in a way they did not have to before. >> i couldn't agree with you more and i hope that is what happens. i truly believe, unless there is a political consequence, we are

not going to have change. it is not going to be able to outsize the spending we are seeing on the part of the nra. i have some sound from senator mark pryor that i want to play for you and some statistics and we will talk about it on the other side. >> the mayor of new york city is running ads against me because i oppose president obama's gun patrol legislation. nothing in the obama administration would have pronounced tragedies like newtown, aurora, and even jonesboro. i am committed to finding solutions to gun violence and protecting our second amendment rights. i am mark pryor, because no one from new york on washington tells me what to do. i listen to arkansas. >> here is what strikes me. he says he is listening to arkansas. in the state of arkansas, you probably know this as well as anybody, 60% of arkansans support background checks.

71% of people in georgia and 67% in tennessee. so for him to say he is actually listening to the people of his state, that doesn't appear to be true. the final question to you that i want to ask, mark, would be, my suggestion would be, going forward, to use people from these states that have been victims of gun violence and get them to tell their stories to these members. until there is a political consequence, nothing is going to change. >> sure. you are right. 60% support in arkansas is pretty low. our polling has it as high as the mid-80s. it is clear this is just one of those issues where people recognize. we think senator pryor will recognize nobody's first or second-amendment rights are damaged because of a background check. one of the ads that we are running in the state is from a women whose friend was the head of the democratic party and was murdered by somebody who should never have had a gun.

>> thanks to mayor kasim reed and mark glaze. >> congratulations, karen, i'm so happy you are on the air. >> thank you so much. thank you. we have breaking news as i mentioned on the nsa investigation, a man claiming he is the source of those leaked documents has finally broken his silence. stay with us. you are watching "disrupt" on msnbc. alking car. but i'll tell you what impresses me. a talking train. this ge locomotive can tell you exactly where it is, what it's carrying, while using less fuel. delivering whatever the world needs, when it needs it. ♪ after all, what's the point of talking if you don't have something important to say? ♪ because it saves things. [ cellphone beeps ] like your marriage. [ boys laughing ]

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♪ helps him deposit his checks. jay also like it when mother nature helps him wash his car. mother nature's cool like that. citibank mobile check deposit. easier banking. standard at citibank. welcome back to "disrupt." we have breaking news. "the guardian" newspaper has released an interview with a man who has identified himself as the source of that information. 29-year-old edward snowden is an nsa contractor and former cia employee from hawaii who says he

has gone into hiding in hong kong, of all places. in a 12-minute video posted on "the guardian" website, he explained his reason for the leak. >> i think the public is owed an explanation of the motivation behind the people that make these disclosures outside of the democratic model. i am no different than anybody else. i don't have special skills. i am just another guy who sits there day to day in the office and watches what's happening and goes, this is something that is not our place to decide. the public needs to decide whether these programs and policies are right or wrong. i am willing to go on the record and defend the authenticity of these. with me to sort through all of this, steve clemons, washington editor at-large for the atlantic.

maria kumar and jonathan kapek of "the washington post." >> congratulations. >> thanks. >> steve, i want to start with you and your reaction to snowden. >> it is blockbuster news. i think his managing these revelations from essentially china, hong kong is part of china, undermines to some degree those that would like to say he is a brave upstanding man that would want to remind americans what democracy is. when you read his statement, ron fornier said, when you read his commitment to transparency and openness with the public and compare it to president obama, which side are you going to choose? this is a vexing problem. i think many in the intelligence community are deeply frustrated with the revelations. i believe that massive, metadata

level acquisition of information generated by americans is something we should have been talking about a long time ago. >> i bet many americans didn't know what metadata was. >> one of the things that has struck me about this story. it has moved very quickly from what we learned to push back from the president to push back from clapper and clearly this gentleman thought he needed to come out and defend himself on this. where do you think we are going to go from here? i feel like we are going to be talking about this for several days. >> i think we are going to be talking about this for the foreseeable future. this is a conversation this country needs to be having, should have been having for a long time now. the interesting thing is that snowden is not saying that the country is doing anything -- it might be right versus wrong but not something legal versus

illegal. what we are talking about is the national security administration and the secret services that help protect this country doing things that under laws passed by congress done on behalf of the american people. when you are talking about clan d destin services and top secret clearances and things, these are things we are not supposed to know about, because as a journalist, i want more information, not less. as a government, a government needs secrecy to carry out some very important functions. that's the tension that steve is talking about. i think the country is going to be talking about for the next few weeks or months. >> if i may karen, underscore one key point. dana priest, one of jonathan capart's colleagues had a series on the industrial complex.

she basically tells the story of a world that basically operates by different gravitational rules than operate for the rest of the political system. what snowden has done, right or wrong, has brought some gravity back to that situation and given support to it. i think it is very important. >> it strikes me that one of the interesting things, in this new environment of cyberspace, warfare. it is a very different kind of land skate where it used to be, you had a pile of documents or you meet in a garage or a building and you are deep throat. now, with the click of a mouse, this young man, as jonathan says, he is not saying that the united states is breaking the law. he also said he doesn't believe he has done anything wrong. there are some very challenging questions in this for us. these things are supposed to be secret for our safety and benefit. >> right. i think what we are all talking about is that we are living in a

brave new world where we have a new sense of ftension where we fighting for our privacy and security. millions of people are constantly giving away their security and privacy online through social media. why is it that we are not concerned that companies have so much information about us that we give to them freely versus the government, where they are trying to protect safety? >> it is this kind tension that we have to bring forth and have these conversations. it might be up to the public to decide how far to go. we are actively participating. when we are actively participating, how do we actually create an open dialogue? >> it is sort of interesting. we are sharing all this data and we are having this other debate in other context of the

collection of certain kind of data to buy a gun. >> steve, i want to talk to you about this tweet you sent out yesterday. we have a tweet and a sense of response from the young man. you said in dulles ual lounge listening to four u.s. intel officials saying loudly, leaker and reporter on nsa stuff should be disappeared recorded a bit. mr. snowden responded and said, this is how people talk. some people say that is not really how those nsa guys talk. he basically said, yeah, behind closed doors, that's how they talk. it is not the rule of law they are thinking about. it is how to get the job done. >> yeah. these guys, i heard, first of all, i said us intel officials. i should have said u.s. intel types. we are still searching down who those individuals are. it was very clear from the conversation, they were deeply intimate. these guys were a band of

brothers. i hope they come forward. the at lan if i can hlantic hasy to find them and ask them to clarify what i heard. there was another person who heard these guys who e-mailed me who happens to be the friend of atlantic media. these guys were very loud. they were attending a dinner honoring former national security director, michael hayden and chaired by john negropo 23467 negroponte. they said the reporter was doing nothing wlong but the leaker had crossed the lines and then they said the reporter was aiding and abetting and both should be disappeared. >> i want to get maria teresa and jonathan in on this. what struck me as interesting today, maria teresa, listening to the spin and the rhetoric, from the senator, the republican

senators, they seem to be putting it all on the house, right, saying we are okay but really it is the house we can't get anything through? >> i don't think that is wrong. i actually think the house is going to be very difficult. the fact that come friday, the chairman of the judiciary committee on the house said he wants to split up the bill is really a read flag for a lot of individuals for the folks working on this day in and day out. when you start fliding splittin you are only going to get a piece meal piece. they don't believe in a path of citizenship. short of that, you are going to have a second-class citizen. what we should do is look at the house. if we get a good vote, 65 to 70 votes, that means it is going to be a lot harder for the house to say the republicans aren't on board. >> jonathan, quickly to you, order at the border, is that the message that's going to get more house members on board?

>> well, if you listen to what some of the republicans are saying, yes, it is, for them, all about national security, national security. secure the border. ultimately, the senate, if the senate does the right thing and passes this bill and then it goes over to the house where everyone has been afraid of what will happen in the house, the folks in the house have shown time and time again, whether it is immigration, the debt ceiling, fiscal cliff, when it comes time to do the right thing, the rational thing, the sensible thing, they don't do it. >> not so much with that. all right, you guys. thank you to maria teresa kumar, jonathan capart,thank you. it was great to have you. instead of singling out a handful of states to protect voting rights, maybe it is time to expand the voting right to every state. you are watching "disrupt" on msnbc. because she's got other things to stress about.

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the supreme court began to hand down a range of cases. certain parts offer the country are required with a history of discriminatory practice must have any proposed changing to voting laws or procedures pre-cleared by the federal government. given the unprecedented voter sus pregs screams where you had billy clubs and tests rae plised by voter laws and machine shortages in minority neighborhoods. it helped protect minority records and contributed to the record turnout. the issue before the court is whether or not section 5 is still needed. given the democratic one county is being used to test that. it seems the question should be

whether or not section 5 should be applied to all of the states. with me now is professor spencer overton, a senior fellow. he is here to help me sort through this. i am going to put the question to you. i listened to the oral arguments on this. it struck me it was making more of a case for we need section 5 to apply everywhere, not in fewer places. >> i think that's a good point, karen. c congrats on the new show. in terms of your specific question, that's a question for congress. we have a legal question before the court. your notion of, let's expand this nationwide. that's an argument of those people against voting protections and would strike down section 5 of the voting rights act. congress took a look at this in 2006. they found that the covered jurisdictions are much more likely, twice as likely, to have

white/black voting. even though 25% of the nation's population is in the coverage states, those coverage states account for 80% of the voting rights lawsuits where discrimination was found. >> so let's talk a little bit about the legal strategy here. it strikes me that, and you tell me if i'm being conspiracy theorist or not here, that this case, the goal of this case, was to get it to the supreme court to challenge, as a case, to challenge section 5 of the voting rights act for those who frankly, we see the schemes. they did perfectly well trying to tee up all kinds of schemes. it seems like there was really sort of a judicial activism on the side of conservatives to get this case to the supreme court. am i wrong about that? >> no. i think judicial activism is a key word you used. the 15th amendment is explicit in giving congress the power to create these voting protections,

to protect minority voting rights as opposed to the courts. congress took a look at this issue, 91 witnesses, 21 hearings, and 15,000 page record. 98-0 was the vote in the u.s. senate bipartisan support. republican, george w. bush, signed this into law. so certainly there would be some judicial overreaching if the court were to somehow roll or scale this back. >> isn't that to some degree part of the goal so that you have the court deal with it so that members of congress who are up for re-election every two to six years do not have to go back and face their constituents and say they voted against it? instead, they can say it is wa t was the courts, guys, not me. >> that's the way justice scalia looks at it. the racial entitlement comment he made. he want government of, biry, an for the people. this ensures that by preventing

politicians from manipulating voting rules. we've come a long way. politicians are still manipulating rules based on how people look or speak. >> you can say that again. thank you, professor spencer overton. don't be afraid to disrupt the conversation. find us on facebook or twitter at msnbc and let us know which way you think the supreme court should vote. don't go any are with. we will be right back. d fades ] at a moment like this, i'm glad i use tampax pearl. [ female announcer ] tampax pearl protects better. only tampax has a leakguard braid to help stop leaks before they happen. tampax pearl protects better. to help stop leaks before they happen. ♪ i' to help stop leaks before they happen. 'm a hard, hard ♪ i'm a hard, hard worker and i'm working every day. ♪

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(guy) i wannna catch a falcon! (girl) we should do that. (guy) i caught a falcon. (guy) you could eat a bug. let's do that. (guy) you know you're eating a bug. (girl) because of the legs. (guy vo) we got a subaru to take us new places. (girl) yeah, it's a hot spring. (guy) we should do that. (guy vo) it did. (man) how's that feel? (guy) fine. (girl) we shouldn't have done that. (guy) no. (announcer) love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. earlier this week, i had the honor of talking about mrs. evers. he was viciously gunned down in front of her and their three children on june 12th, 19636789 s she is an inspirational leader in her own right. she knows ai little bit about

disrupting the status quo. i asked her about the journey that began for her after her husband's death. >> there are a number of reasons that speak to my ability to move forward. one was metger's belief in me. the night before he was killed, we had a very tearful conversation with each other. i told him i could not make it without him. he said to me, you can. you are stronger than you think you are. you will be all right. i just ask you to take care of my children. so that was primary. those remarks and that love has stayed with me throughout this period of time. i also think that there was a stubbornness that was there that perhaps i had not discovered. you also want to set an example for children and for oergs in your community. women have not always been given the credit that they deserve in

keeping a family and moving forward and whatnot. that was a time when there were challenges of women, to women that perhaps had not been as bradley explored as before. it was a combination of a loved one believing you in and asking you to do certain things, help move the movement ahead, of looking at three children that had no father, what kind of example could i be. of look at women who need, i still think today, role models that say you can, you will, and you must. i am so pleased to see women reemerge today from what we did 25 years ago with an organization such as the national women's political caucus caucus. it is this evolution of shaping and changing. when you have someone who truly believes and believed in you as

medley did with me. i have been motivated by proving him to be right but to say to myself, yes, i can. as i tell some people, i'm not just a widow. >> no, you're not. i'm very proud and thankful for all of those accomplishments. >> you have so elegantly balanced keeping medger evers memory alive and your own voice active in p active politics, active in civil rights and your own issues. how did you come to that balance? >> i tried different things. i made errors. i did not want to be a disservice to myself, to medger or my children to wallow in self-pity and hatred. that was difficult to do. i think i was motivated a lot by my hatred and i was determined

to make somebody pay and the best way to do that was community service and building on the positive. i know it sounds a little crazy. >> no, not at all. >> i think that's exactly what happened. medger always said we should not hate. >> how did you work through those feelings of hate to get to the point of doing the work? >> with a split personality, you can do almost anything that you envision. i was a perfect, smiling, kind, forgiving widow by day and by night, behind the closed doors of my home, i had vivid plans for retaliation, against not only the person that pulled that trigger but by the state of

mississippi and everyone else who didn't agree with medger. i made a promise, if anything happened to him, that i would see to it that justice prevailed. by night, i was motivated by all of that. by day, i was a smiling, nice person. perhaps i should be on someone's couch. >> or is that playing the game maybe a little bit? >> it worked. it did work. we have already established the medgar and myrlie evers institute to embrace the generations. we still aren't talking to each other as we should, i feel. >> has there been enough change in the last 50 years? >> has it changed? >> has there been enough change? >> no. that's it. we have not moved forward in this country as far as i think we can. with the involvement of more people, i have found too many younger women in particular say i'm successful in business and i

did it myself without realizing there have been other women and men who have put their life on the line to break down barriers. we look some of the hatefulness amongst our leaders in washington. who suffers? we do. the people suffer. so it is like, don't sit back and complain. find legal ways to protest and say that we must make changes at our local level through the top levels of government. america to me is the best. i'll always feel that way. we must not lose sight of the fact that it takes work.

it takes work every day. it means examining one's self. when i bm become angry all over again, i hope to do things to turn it into something positive. i'm working, not for glorly, because i believe. >> my thanks to merley evers for sitting down with me this week. [ lisa ] my name's lisa, and chantix helped me quit. i honestly loved smoking, and i honestly didn't think i would ever quit. [ male announcer ] along with support,

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welcome back. the commanding general of u.s. army troops was suspended for failing to report or properly investigate a charge of sexual assault. major general charles harrison was scheduled to become deputy commander of the u.s. army component. another new report indicated that over 40 cases of sexual

assault have been reported at fort bliss in texas since last october. when they started a new program aimed at preventing sexual misconduct. of an astounding 26,000 service members estimated to have experienced some kind of unwanted sexual contact last year, just a little over 3,000 cases were reported. it is estimated that over half the victims are actually men. that's why decisions about sexual assault cases must be taken out of the chain of command. a move the top brass flat-out rejected at senate hearings this week. with me now to discuss it further, linda fairstein, former head of the manhattan d.a. sex crimes unit and anu bhagwati. thank you for your time. i want to start with some sound from what some of the female senators said on the sunday shows this morning. >> until there are more prosecutions and more

convictions, this problem is not going to end. >> i think they got the message but they are going to get the message further after we are done with this issue in the senate armed services committee. we north letting this go. >> until you see justice being done, until you see accountability in this system you will not be able to change the culture. this is a cultural problem from top to bottom. >> anu, i am going to start with you. again and again i feel like i have heard the women in the accept nat and other advocates, i have heard you say it is. the point is this is a cultural problem. it isn't just we are going to have a training session and it will all go a? the reason i want to talk about this is the two stories i mentioned in the intro. here at fort bliss, you have, they tried to do training and guess what, the numbers went up. how do you get the military brass to understand it is a culture problem, no the not a matter of training video. >> it was amazing to see the

wall of four-star general represents the service. you mentioned this case in southeast asia. there is a history of local resistance to service members raping and assaulting local civilian women. there are marines on lockdown right now in neokinawa. there is so much of a roar of service members crimes. a lot of things that are happening in parallel, not just sexism that i experienced and my peers experience like the marine corps where only 7% experience. in the army and marine corps, women not being allowed to do what they want to do and what they are qualified to do jobwise.

there is a lot to handle. >> linda, this is what i wanted to have you here. rape is about power, not sex. one senator said it is hormones without understanding what we are dealing with. this is a discrete area of law in the civilian world because of the fact and the nature of these cases. talk to us a little bit about why this is such a specific area of law. >> in civilian law, this area was the stepchild of criminal law. these cases were not prosecuted in the american criminal justice system when i got to the practice of law in the 1970s. the laws were archaic. it requires an entire cultural change. these changes are -- the victims are different in these cases, the most end matt kind of assault obviously that can occur. so the needs of the victims are different. anu and i were talking outside about the fact that you need ad

voe kalts vocats to get a victim through this. you need to be experienced about the elements of the crimes. we have done a ton of training in the population around the country with prosecutors and judges to try and make the point that these cases are different, both for the people who are discriminated against for reporting. women have always been treated badly when reporting these crimes. that's why they are underreported. the proportion of male victims in the military cases is, again, even more of a discriminatory factor. they north supposed to be victims of sexual assault. those are many of the things you are dealing with. >> anu, to that point, it strikes me that as part of what we are hearing and the responses we have heard last week and time and time again fundamentally, doesn't seem to understand the nature of that difference.

it feels like what we are hearing, we can kind of handle this in the chain of command than we would handle anything else. how can did we get the leaders to understand we are talking about a set of cases that as linda was saying, there are different things you look and listen to. >> linda was so right. even unwanted sexual contact, the senators were trying to accept pore rate from this larger issue of sexual violence is extremely relevant. you live in a confined institution. you can't quit your job. you are stuck for several years working with potentially your perpetrators or the people who are not supporting you. that confinement over several years leads to a lot of post-traumatic stress and mental health challenges. you are literally not safe in your own uniform when you are constantly on alert. if you left your job, you would be charged with going awol.

we have to remember that. victims are living in terror when this happens to them. >> we know also in the civilian world it is traumatic enough to get a woman. i can't imagine in that circumstance. how difficult is it for a woman to come forward, period, just that one step is hard? >> very, very difficult. if you are coming forward in the military to the same commanding officer that the perpetrator might be coming forward to. that's another chilling factor. how is that decision going to be made and impacting how you live and work every day? i can't think of any other business or international corporation if it had the percentage of victims claiming to be sexually assaulted. you would never let anybody you cared about, your son, your daughter, go to work for that institution. i think this is going to be the only way to force change upon

the military resistant. >> we are going to keep on it. women, some men too, but women are driving the force behind this and making it happen, to have this conversation. thanks, anu and linda. thanks so much for you time today. >> good luck with the show. >> thanks. tell us what you think. should the chain of command be broken? like us on facebook and tweet us at msnbcdisrupt. stick around. we have more ahead. [ male announcer ] erica had a rough day. there was this and this. she got a parking ticket... ♪ and she forgot to pay her credit card bill on time. good thing she's got the citi simplicity card. it doesn't charge late fees or a penalty rate. ever. as in never ever. now about that parking ticket. [ grunting ] [ male announcer ] the citi simplicity card is the only card that never has late fees, a penalty rate, or an annual fee, ever. go to citi.com/simplicity to apply.

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z. thank you for joining us. be sure to tune in on saturday and sunday at 4:00 p.m. eastern when the disruption continues. that does it for me. don't go anywhere. because "the ed show" is coming up next. [ phil ] when you have joint pain and stiffness...

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where are the jobs? >> thank you, mr. speaker, where are the jobs? >> mr. president, where are the jobs? >> our businesses have created nearly 7 million new jobs over the past 32 months. >> the construction elevator confidence in the economy is climbing to new levels thanks to the grit and the determination of american people, folks are starting to come back. >> ordinary folks, they do their jobs. the notion our elected leadership can't do the same thing is mind-boggling. >> you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth? >> we in the republican conference remain committed to emphasizing working families? >> they took our jobs. >> are we serious? >> this week, we will be repealing obama care. >> you blew it. >> that's who the republicans are. >> it needs to stop. >> you no he what, we're going back to work. ♪ good evening. welcome to "the