it was along with the fall of the berlin wall the greatest stories i've ever gotten to cover. i expect to be going to south africa to honor the great man once again when the time comes. it is impossible to measure the good this pain of this man, his faith, his leadership has meant to our time. it was he who instilled in millions of south africans the power of the ballot, the joy of democracy. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "politics nation with al sharpton" starts right now. >> thanks, chris. and thanks to you for tuning in. tonight lead, the trial begins. one year, three months and 15 days after killing trayvon martin, george zimmerman is on trial for second-degree murder. mr. zimmerman has pleaded not guilty and claims he shot trayvon martin in self-defense. today marks a dramatic new phase in a case that drew national attention, one that is a long

way away from that cold rainy night in florida when trayvon martin was killed. late this afternoon, lawyers for both sides began questioning potential jurors. these potential jurors are not being shown on tv in order to protect their identity. most of the questions focused on what they knew about the case from the media. >> have you read anything about this in the newspaper? how about on the internet? do you ever surf the internet? in terms of when you heard it or saw it on tv, was it a local broadcast or was it a national broadcast do you recall? >> i would like you to tell me one were to other things you have heard about this. if you're not watching channel 9, are there any national channels that you watch? i think you said you watch csi type shows on occasion. >> yeah. >> okay. any idea how close you consider those to reality? >> mr. zimmerman's wife and brother were both in the

courtroom today. during a break in the action, his brother talked about his hopes for the jury. >> one of the problems in this situation was that there was a big vacuum surrounding who george zimmerman was. so this mythological monster evolved that people had nothing to contrast with. i think it's important that jurors get to know that george is a real person. >> earlier trayvon martin's parents also gathered in court and gave a statement to the media. >> we are relieved that the start of the trial is here with the jury selection as we seek justice for our son trayvon. and we also seek a fair and impartial trial. we ask that the community continue to stay peaceful as we place our faith in the justice system. and we ask that the community do the same. we ask that our families and friends continue to pray for us, continue to keep us safe in

god's arms. we ask that you continue to pray for trayvon and our family. thank you. >> a fair and impartial trial. that's all anyone has ever wanted in this case. today marks a new turn in a long road toward justice. joining me now is former prosecutor faith jenkins, former u.s. attorney kendall coffey, now msnbc legal analyst, and dr. marshall hennington, a nationally recognized trial and jury consultant. thank you all for being here. >> thank you for having us. >> faith, let me start with you. how important is jury selection? and can a trial be won or lost here before attorneys even make their opening statements? >> in this case, i think both sides realize jury selection is all important. this is not an easy case for the state there is not a lot of direct evidence. you don't have a bunch of eyewitnesses lined up to take the witness stand. they know they're facing very challenging circumstances here.

so they have to vet these jurors. it's okay that jurors already know something about the case. but based on what they know, had they already come to a conclusion. that's why you're hearing them repeatedly ask questions about what they have heard and have they developed an opinion based on what they have heard so far. >> dr. coffey, let me ask you your view of the same question. this case a case where the jury selection becomes the deciding factor even before the opening statements? >> it could very easily be, because of attitudes that are going to be so determinative. one of them is going to be attitude about guns. people who think that it's okay for private citizens to go around with guns and to use them if they feel they have to, people that are basically gun owners are going to be much better jurors for the defense. people, on the other hand, who just aren't comfortable with the idea of guns and violence and think that something's got to be done about it, those are going to be the best jurors for the

prosecution. >> now dr. hennington, you deal with jury analysis. i notice that don west, who is one of the lawyers for mr. zimmerman was asking potential juror b-29 about how trayvon's death affected her as a mother. listen to this. >> did it affect you in any particular way because you're a mother yourself? you have children around the same age of trayvon martin. >> as any mother, it would affect to lose your child, whether in a car accident or gang violence, of course. >> now before you answer, i just want viewers to understand the reason we're showing zimmerman is we do not -- they do not put cameras on the potential jurors to protect their privacy and to protect them. so they shoot the defendant or the lawyers in the courtroom. but go ahead, dr. hennington. what does this kind of

questioning of a potential juror mean? >> well, basically, they want to tap into how jurors as a whole on that panel feel about young men that had been victimized and also have they formed any opinions with respect to mr. zimmerman's guilt. the fact of the matter is that a young man lost his life. it was mentioned by mr. coffey earlier that this trial is about guns and should there be a ban placed on guns, a more stricter bans or not. but this trial is about race. and jury selection is the most important aspect of this particular trial. it's absolutely crucial to get the right jurors on this trial that can be fair and impartial. that's going to be extremely difficult. both sides have an uphill battle. the prosecutors have to prove their case to these jurors that it was mr. zimmerman that it was the aggressor, it was mr. zimmerman who did not pay attention to the 911 calls that came in when that woman that was on the other side of 911 calls

the operator mentioned specifically to him to not follow mr. martin, to stay exactly where you are until help arrives. he didn't follow the orders according to the 911 tape. so that's going to be an uphill battle for the defense to really be able to defend mr. zimmerman's actions. >> now faith, he mentioned race. when you look at the demographics at seminole county where the trial is where sanford, florida is, it's 66% white, 18% latino, 12% african-american. and it skews toward a conservative kind of area politically in last year's election, 53% of the county voted for mitt romney. 46% of that county voted for president obama. it doesn't say how the jury will be, but that's the county demographics. what can you learn from this, and what did you learn today, if anything, from the beginning of the jury selection? >> it would be foolish to say

that the racial makeup of this jury is completely irrelevant. even if the attorneys don't address it that way that. >> know that that is going to be a part of this. and only 11% of that county is african-american. what you can get from that is you're not going have a racial imbalance in favor of an african-american jury here. but at the same time, the lawyers know they cannot strike jurors based on race, no matter what their race. the supreme court already decided that in bass versus kentucky in 1986. you can't do that. but it's obviously going to be a part of this case, because i think we're going to hear down the line in opening statements moving forward that there was an element of profiling here. so when you're talking about what kinds of jurors each side wants, the state wants jurors who are going to be perhaps sympathetic to it. and obviously the defense is going to want to stay completely away from that as much as they can. >> now, when you hear all of this attorney coffey, you're a former prosecutor. you prosecuted cases. you've got to deal with the

social elements here of whether there was profiling and frankly, whether the police operated wrongly. because when some of us that got involved, we were more concerned with the police not proceeding to court and making the decision than we were about what attitudes the person might have had that did the shooting, because we did not know. how do you navigate through all of that and still stay close to what you need to convince a jury of the crime that has been charged of murder 2? >> i don't think the prosecution is going to try to do anything but focus on their best evidence. they certainly want to portray zimmerman as a wanna-be cop if they can. they want to present him as a would-be vigilante, someone who is profiling. they don't have to mention race. but the idea is that zimmerman saw a particular kind of a young man and thought he needed to pursue him and do something about it, even though the 911

dispatcher told him to stay away. on the other hand, there is still reasonable doubt that's got to be overcome. so you're going to see the prosecution along with presenting that narrative focus on a couple critical points of evidence. one of them hasn't been ruled upon, reverend, and that's a question of whether the expert testimony on voice recognition about that 911 tape is going to be allowed. that is one of the big decisions that is yet to be made that could shape the course of this trial. >> now -- another part of this whole jury selection, dr. hennington is when you look at how some of the jurors have known or may have known or may have heard about this case, for example, when you hear the questioning with juror b-30 talking about what his girlfriend told him about the case. listen to this. >> my girlfriend had her opinion about it. and she thinks that -- she told me that she thought that mr. zimmerman should have stayed in

his car, and that could have alleviated the whole thing. >> how per meant the is getting second-hand opinions going to be in jury selection? and how do you deal with this as you go through this process of jury selection? >> well, that's a great question, you know, reverend sharpton. the fact of the matter is everyone has heard about this case. everyone has formed a particular opinion about this case. and for any individuals to say that his girlfriend told him some information about the case but yet of course i haven't formed an opinion is absolutely absurd. the fact of the matter is everyone has a particular bias, either in support of mr. zimmerman or against mr. zimmerman. but the fact is what the attorney is going to have to do is really dig deep to find out if there are biases that will impact their side of the case. neither side has a slam-dunk case. both sides have problems with their case. this case has gotten international exposure, all right. and unless you're living under a rock, you've heard something about this case.

you have formed some particular opinions about this case. you have certain biases with respect to this case as well. that's the challenge of each side. the jury questionnaire is going to be extremely important for them to get the most key, pertinent information from these jurors that they would not be able to ask in open court setting. and a lot of times you can use that questionnaire to really gather some compelling information so that you can build your case based on some of the themes that come out during the questionaire that they review. >> attorney coffey raised a point i want to close this segment with. he said there is still no decision on whether or not they're going to allow the voice experts and the tape of the screaming that three experts say was trayvon martin screaming for help. how important do you feel that would be to this case? >> it's very important because it goes to the emotional aspect of the case, which is what the state wants. and that's why they're looking for parents and mothers to be on this jury. because at the end of the day you have a 17-year-old with no

gun walking home with snacks who was killed because someone thought he looked suspicious. >> faith jenkins, kendall coffey and dr. marshall hennington, thank you all for your time tonight. >> thank you. >> and in full disclosure, in civil court, george zimmerman has sued nbcuniversal for defamation, and the company has strongly denied his allegations. ahead, more on that emotional speech from trayvon martin's family today. we'll find out what the family is thinking after day one. the lawyer for the martin family joins us next. and 50 years after the equal pay act, the gop wants to turn back the clock. but president obama won't let it happen. and the debate over security should be had, but some on the right are using it for ugly attacks on the president. and keep those e-mails rolling in. i'm responding tonight. stay with us. [ shapiro ] at legalzoom, you can take care of virtually

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it took more than 15 months for the trial of george zimmerman to begin. more from sanford, florida. that's next. is kevin. to prove to you that aleve is the better choice for him, he's agreed to give it up. that's today? [ male announcer ] we'll be with him all day as he goes back to taking tylenol. i was okay, but after lunch my knee started to hurt again. and now i've got to take more pills. ♪ yup. another pill stop. can i get my aleve back yet? ♪ for my pain, i want my aleve. ♪ [ male announcer ] look for the easy-open red arthritis cap.

it's been a long road to reach this day, the opening of george zimmerman's second-degree murder trial. the controversy began immediately after trayvon martin's death when police

decided not to charge mr. zimmerman in the case. >> in this case, mr. zimmerman has made the statement of self-defense. until we can establish probable cause to dispute that, we don't have the grounds to arrest him. >> this young man would have shot this man, would he have been arrested? he definitely would have been arrested. >> this guy was not arrested. i don't understand. as a mother, my heart is broken. >> as the controversy grew and the coverage went national, the president of the united states weighed in. >> this is a tragedy. i can only imagine what these parents are going through. and when i think about this boy, i think about my own kids. my main message is to the parents of trayvon martin.

you know, if i had a son, he would look like trayvon. >> trayvon martin's mother and father. >> a rally in miami drew thousands of protesters. i was there joining those calling for an arrest. calling on authorities to let the criminal justice system do its work. eventually prosecutors decided to move ahead with criminal charges. >> trayvon martin's mother and father are not asking for an eye for an eye. they're just asking for an arrest. wouldn't you want that if that was your child? >> i would also like to see justice be served. i don't think this was right. if it was my child, i would definitely be outraged. and every parent should be concerned. justice has to be served. something needs to be done. >> i came here today because i believed in justice. and justice to me is something ought to be settled in a courtroom. >> today we filed an information

charging george zimmerman with murder in the second degree. a habeas has been issued for his arrest. >> joining me is benjamin crump, attorney for trayvon martin's family. thank you for being here. >> thank you for having me. >> it's been a long road to get to this point. it certainly hasn't been easy. first of all, how is the family feeling about this whole process? they've had to go through a roller coaster for the last more than a year. how are they feeling about the whole process today? >> well, trayvon's parents trace and sabrina are thankful that the killer of their son will face a jury of his peers. today we start the process of seeking a fair and impartial jury. and they believe in their heart, reverend sharpton that justice will prevail and that the jury will do their civic duty of following the judge's instructions and the law. >> so they're confident they will have a fair trial?

that's their belief? >> yes, sir. and they are very much aware, and they said in their statement previously this is the murder trial of george zimmerman. george zimmerman shot and killed trayvon martin. so there is no doubt it's a homicide. and we believe that the evidence will show that the homicide of their unarmed teenager was not justified. and they just have faith in their prayer that the jury follow the evidence and the law and nothing else. because all they have ever wanted was to have a verdict based on the evidence and hold the person accountable based on the evidence, reverend sharpton. >> what happens if george zimmerman takes the stand? i know his lawyer was questioned about that. he said he hadn't decided. do you think it's important one way or another and that it will have a bearing one way or another if zimmerman testifies? >> well, reverend sharpton, we believe if he has such a good self-defense argument, he should take the stand and tell the jury

and america why. and if he doesn't, that's going to be very telling, because they over and over again have said that this was self-defense. and he gave so many inconsistent statements. if he doesn't take the stand and explain those inconsistent statements, then that's going to be very telling. but i do tell you this, reverend sharpton. the prosecutor wants him to take that stand. so they'll give opportunity to cross-examine him on the many factual impossibilities in his statements that he made about what happened. and once a jury believes that he is not telling the truth, then they have to answer the question was this person not telling us the truth about what happened when he shot an unarmed teenager. so it's very, very important to challenge him to take the stand and tell what's happened. >> today jury selection started. we're told it may take a couple

of weeks. how do you feel about the jury selection process and a couple of weeks. what is your feeling about it, attorney crump? >> well, reverend sharpton, i do think that it's going to take a significant amount of time. and the family is patient. they want to get a fair and impartial jury. they're doing it where they're trying to find out what pretrial publicity the jurors know about the case, have they formed any opinions or biases. and then once they determine that, then they're going to impanel 21 people at a time and ask them different issues about why they should or shouldn't serve on the jury as they do a trial. and at that point they keep going through it every so many 21 days until they get six members that can hear the case and then four alternates. and we're probably spend the

next month having that jury vet all of the evidence. >> so it's six members of the jury in florida for a case of this nature that's a noncapital punishment case. martin family attorney benjamin crump, i can only say when we first started talking about this, you wanted a day in court. the family want addai in court. that's all they said -- that's all we protested for. those days have now come about, and we'll be watching. >> thanks for your time this evening. >> thank you, reverend sharpton and your audience. ahead, glenn beck is sorry for being a divider. yeah, he really wasn't. we'll show you why. and on the 50th anniversary of the equal pay act, president obama responds to those that want to take us backwards. and send me your e-mail questions. friend or foe, i want to know. ♪

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president kennedy signed the equal pay act into law in an effort to abolish wage discrimination based on gender. the law was an important step, but today at the white house, president obama reminded the country how much work still needs to be done. >> just last week, a report confirmed what we already know, that women are increasingly the breadwinners for american families. that's not something to panic about or be afraid about. that's a sign of the progress and the strides that we've made. but what it does mean is that when more women are bringing home the bacon, they shouldn't just be getting a little bit of bacon. >> this is what the obama presidency is all about, fairness. a president who signed a fair pay act into law first and who referenced seneca falls at the

inauguration. but this is what we hear from the right. >> i want to turn a study and then the pugh research showing that women have become the breadwinners in this country, and a lot of other concerning and troubling statistics. when we're watching society dissolve around us, juan, what do you think? >> something going terribly wrong in american society. >> some women believe they can have it all. and that's the crux of the problem. >> bottom line, it could undermine our social order. >> how did america get so mediocre? >> you know, i think parents became -- both parents started working. and the mom is in the workplace. >> is it any wonder the president says that there is work that still needs to be done? joining me now, john walsh and michelle carter. thank you both for coming on the show tonight. >> thanks, reverend. >> joan, let me start with you. is the gop stuck in 50 years ago? i mean, did you hear that kind of stuff that they were saying?

it's unbelievable. this is 2013. >> i know. and the world is unraveling around us, mainly because of people like me and michelle. it's good to know. no, i men, remember. >> you should be home in the kitchen with an apron. >> we do that too sometimes, so, you know. remember, we talked about this last year when rush limbaugh and other republicans started saying that those bad democrats, those mean democrats, they created the gop war on women. there is no war on women. and then you have people like erick erickson and lou dobbs and sadly juan williams joining in blaming women for this change that 40% of all women are breadwinners, not looking at the factors in the economy driving that or the desire of women to work, which is perfectly great and perfectly wonderful for their families. so you have a president on the one hand who is trying to help those women in the workplace, and then you have these men on the other hand who are in full flight panic at these trends, not wanting to help, but wanting to just turn their backs on them. >> but, you know, michelle, i guess the reason i'm a little

slightly surprised is that even on the right you have michele bachmann, you have sarah palin. i mean you have women that have come out, yet you still have this kind of sexism misogynist attitude. i mean listen to rush limbaugh today mocking the president's equal pay act news conference. listen to this. >> guess what he is out doing today. he is back on the war on women. he is revving that back up. it's some 50th anniversary some equal pay act, some such thing. and he is out there talking about women bringing home the bacon, but they don't get the bacon. >> i mean, some 50th thing, some about women getting bacon. i mean it's crazy. >> yeah. don't worry yourself about the details, rush, we're going to be just fine. i think the only people who could possibly be more entertained about this than say

rush limbaugh are democrats, because every time a republican gets out there and does this, when you have them making these comments, you can be sure that the democratic party is recording these, and you are going to see them again and again. emily's list has been very savvy and aggressive about collecting these and sending out reminders as to kind of what these candidates are saying, and that this is not just kind of a tiny fringe element of the party that will come up with these freaky little gaffes, but increasingly, you can find this widespread among candidates. >> now you know, joan, the president talked today about making the economy better for everybody. and when we look at the fact that the economy is also getting better, just look at the u.s. auto industry, car sales poised to reach the highest level in six years, and the industry is expected to add 35,000 jobs this year alone. the president talked about today

making it better for everyone, male and female. listen to this. >> what's going to do the most good for the most people in this country. not what is best for a political party. not what is best for a special interest. i don't have another election. it's not what is best for me. what is best for our middle class. and everybody who is working hard to get there that's what the american people deserve. >> your response to the bringing of the economy to everyone, regardless of who they are, and that that is really the mandate for this president and for this country right now. >> absolutely. i mean, he has to be happy that the economy is coming back. i think that's partly what is causing all this attention to scandal, that they know they can't hit him on jobs as much so, they turn to scandal. on the other hand, he knows and we know, reverend al, that the people that we care about, a lot of them are being left out of this recovery, and that we've seen to some extent it was true under the clinton administration

too, but it's even more true now that we have jobless recoveries and we also have recoveries where wage gains aren't shared by the middle and the working class. and so he is concerned about that. he's got an agenda to start to do something about it. but he is being pushed back. this is not something they want to take up in any form. >> but you know, michelle, the gop is trying to cut the safety net from those who are struggling. let me give you an example. the new farm bill making its way through the house will cut food stamps by $20 billion. but it would increase crop subsidies by $9 billion. i mean how do you justify you're going to cut $20 billion from food stamp programs who a large segment go to children, but you're going to give farm subsidies a $9 billion increase. >> you justify that because poor children don't vote. now that doesn't make it right. but, you know, the republicans

have a fairly consistent position about the social safety net, which is that they are very concerned about government trying to do too much. but that makes it even more through the looking glass when you have them backing policies, you know, like the farm bill where you are winding up with what is supporting big agriculture on some level. >> joan, do you, as we move toward the economy edging its way back as the president still fights for gender equality and equality for race as well as other segments of society, gays and lesbians, we still see the politics of distraction. you mentioned the scandals. elaborate on that. you feel that all the scandals have tried to struck or at least deflect attention from the needs for this progress to continue? >> i do think that. you know, i think that the

republican party has consigned itself to being a minority party for quite a long time, reverend al, but they know how to use that minority status to block. and they consider that a job well done when they can block this president, who is elected to solve these problems, they can go back and tell their tea party faithful that they did the job they were sent to washington to do. not for american families, but for those extreme right-wingers who don't want to see government work. >> joan walsh and michelle cottle, threw both for your time this evening. >> thank you. >> thanks, reverend. ahead, the debate over security and transparency is one thing, but some on the right are going overboard. and we have an update on nelson mandela's hospitalization. stay with us. [ male announcer ] ah... retirement. sit back, relax,

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regime in south africa. it was his strength we saw when he walked out of prison after 27 years and into the arms of a joyous nation. and it was his strength that allowed him to get elected south africa's first black president. as an election observer, i witnessed history, and i will never forget it. we are all praying for nelson mandela. [ male announcer ] this is kevin. to prove to you that aleve is the better choice for him, he's agreed to give it up. that's today? [ male announcer ] we'll be with him all day

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the debate over surveillance, privacy, and security is raging across the country. because of this guy. he is ed toward snowden, and he is responsible for one of the biggest national security leaks in american history. the former cia employee fueled the debate over collecting phone records and internet surveillance. but some republicans are using it to attack the president. >> the optics are terrible in this case when you consider the

latest scandals. you have to ask yourself this question is can you trust this administration with your phone records. >> get a warrant. go after a terrorist or a murderer or a rapist. but don't troll through a billion phone records every day. that is unconstitutional. it invades our privacy. >> now we learned that the government has been collecting millions of u.s. telephone records. while the details are unclear, this fits into a troubling pattern of disregarding the bill of rights. >> this isn't optics or distrust regarding the bill of rights. these are laws put into effect under president bush. there are plenty of democrats who are upset about this too. i do not agree with the patriot act. but you can't blame president obama for it. this is the nonsense we're hearing on the airwaves. >> the evidence of the totalitarian nature, or the authoritarian nature of this

administration is on display, undeniably every day. what everybody knows and nobody wants to really come to grips with is that we are in the midst of a coup taking place. this is clearly an administration who wants to identify its enemies. >> if we don't stop this right now, we will be remembered as the most evil nation in the history of the world. we will dwarf what germany did. there wouldn't be a jew alive on the planet today if hitler had this technology. not a jew alive on the planet. not one. >> america becoming worse than nazi germany? we should have a debate on this. these are hard issues with no easy answers. but we can't have knee-jerk reactions. let's have a real debate, a real conversation on how to move forward. joining me now are dana milbank and joe madison. thank you both for being here tonight. >> thank you, reverend sharpton.

>> dana, rush limbaugh says this is an obama coup. but haven't many in both parties supported the patriot for more than ten years? >> well, not just the patriot act, but this particular program was grown out of a bush administration program and was done on a bipartisan basis to replace that after the supreme court basically invalidated it. you know, look. i think as you pointed out, there is plenty of blame to go around here. i think our government is doing something here that it didn't tell the people about. that's this administration, the previous administration. >> right. >> both parties in congress. and the courts have not been telling. we deserve to know and deserve to have this debate. but for the republicans to come out now and say wait a sec, we didn't know anything about this. if they didn't, they weren't doing their jobs, because all 530 members of congress were invited to be briefed on this program and get the details.

they weren't doing their jobs. they should be asking the questions. >> comparing this to nazi germany. where was this talk preobama? i agree, now we need to look at this. and i was yelling about it, and you were when bush was in when this started. >> and you're absolutely right. and what one should do, and especially those of us in the media is we ought to go back and get rush limbaugh, get glenn beck, who was very active with the other network and play their tapes and how they defended the bush administration when the two of us and others were saying this was an overreach on the part of the government. the tapes are out there. their words are out there, and you can witness for yourself their hypocrisy. >> now dana, you know there is a lot of interest about edward snowden, the man who released this, a man who calls himself a whistle-blower. some see him as a hero. we know he is 29 years old, high

school drop-out. he got his ged, former cia technology assistant. he left the cia in 2009, worked as a private nsa contractor. told bosses he had to be treated for epilepsy. fled to hong kong. we also know he donated $500 to ron paul in his 2012 campaign. so this is the one who released the information. some are saying hero. some are saying that he is someone that is a criminal. >> well, he is both, reverend. he obviously broke the law in releasing this information, and he should face the legal consequences for doing it. on the other hand, he also gave us information that we as americans should have had in the first place. it's a shame that it has to be this 29-year-old guy working for a subcontractor to the government who gets us this information as opposed to our elected leaders in the congress,

in the administration, in the previous administration. i think had they been more forthcoming earlier on when you were asking for this debate to occur, we could have had a civilized debate about this without releasing all the secret sources and methods. now national security may be compromised by this leak, but it's only because our leaders didn't have an honest debate in the first place. >> now joe, snowden spoke to the guardian about the access he had and why he was releasing the information. now. >> any analyst at any time can target anyone, any selector anywhere. i sitting at any desk certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone from you or your accountant to a federal judge to even the president if i had a personal e-mail. i'm no different from anybody else. i don't have special skills. i'm just another guy who sit there's day to day in the office, watches what is happening and goes this is something that's not our place to decide. the public needs to decide

whether these programs and policies are right or wrong. >> now if he is telling the truth, this is a low level guy, yet he is saying he could wiretap or hack anyone. and many liberals don't like it. i've been against the patriot act. but it's handled in a different way. and i think that is what is disturbing. senator mark udall was on over the weekend. listen to this. >> i think we ought to reopen the patriot act and put some limits on the amount of data that the national security administration is collecting. >> the president has said this has been fully debated and authorized by the congress. >> it has been, george, but in a limited way, if i might make that point. that's why i want to reopen the patriot act. i think now that this information is more available, i've certainly had a lot of coloradans say to me they're uncomfortable with this. they want to know more. that's my point. let's have a debate here. let's look at what is really happening.

>> is it time, joe, to have a debate about the law that allows this surveillance? >> it's past time. this is something that we should have debated. but that debate wasn't going to take place, particularly after 9/11. primarily because of fear, primarily because bin laden was still out there, threats were still being made. the reality that i'm concerned about at least is that this analyst who says i'm not special, but you have obviously access to something that most americans don't have access to, the other thing is that i question when did this epiphany happen? you know, he was there for several years, and then now he has this epiphany that he is going to make this available. and then i think, and i made this point earlier, he may have done the wrong thing for right reason. and quite honestly, if that's -- if he did it for the right

reason, then he should come back to the united states, as anyone who has participated in civil disobedience and just, you know, and go on trial. and tell people. and that is part of the debate. but this is not about so much about president obama. it's really even after obama, because that's what i think you're concerned about, i'm concerned about. it's whoever is president. you don't -- we have a right, a constitutional right to expect privacy and not for government to be overboard. but i do not agree with glenn beck, for them to sit there and go after president obama as if this is -- >> that's way out of line. >> over the line and stupid. >> quickly, will washington have this debate, or will it just be more of some partisan whipping up on the president on this and it will end there with the republicans just attacking president obama? >> i hope that we will have this debate, reverend.

you have some republicans like jim sensenbrenner in the house who is somewhat responsible saying he wrote the act. he doesn't want to see this sort of thing going on. so there is a bit of hope that we can have this long delayed public debate. >> all right. well, we're going have to leave there it. joe madison and dana milbank, thanks for your time tonight. >> thanks, reverend. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back. it's monday.

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with the stock market booming and the job market recovering modestly, where is the trickle down the republicans are always talking about? well, we've been getting it down. we haven't been getting as much of the trickle we need. unemployment is at 7.6%. generally, it's at 13.5% among african-americans. if the republicans would stop the sequester and stop fighting the public sector and agencies, we'd be a lot better off. tom writes i am 76 now, and my trail will soon go cold. but before i exit, i'd like to ask your opinion and maybe assistance. it seems to me that all of news the democratic party should permanently remove the word hate from our vocabulary. in my own life, i have focused on the things i love, my cat, my dogs, my wife, our friends, our town. could you help me spread the word? i want to spread the word.

you're right. we have no room for hate, even when we fight, we should fight out of love. and i also want to give you a suggestion, my dear friend. thom, don't list your cats and your dogs ahead of your friend and your wife. it's not too advisable. thanks to all of you for great questions. keep them coming. remember, friend or foe, i want to know. e-mail me. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. >> mystery man. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start tonight with this. where is the young man to gave newspapers all this information about the nsa? better yet who is he? we know so little. didn't finish high school. no college at all. a ron paul srt