you're right. we have no room for hate, even when we fight, we should fight out of love. and i also want to give you a suggestion, my dear friend. thom, don't list your cats and your dogs ahead of your friend and your wife. it's not too advisable. thanks to all of you for great questions. keep them coming. remember, friend or foe, i want to know. e-mail me. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. >> mystery man. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start tonight with this. where is the young man to gave newspapers all this information about the nsa? better yet who is he? we know so little. didn't finish high school. no college at all. a ron paul supporter.

he said he worked for the cia, did undercover work in europe. did he? now he's somewhere in the world where having gotten a big story of government surveillance into print he told us things we didn't know about our government it's bad enough to possibly put him in prison. is it good enough to make him a hero. we're joined by the "huffington post" howard fineman. and "the washington post" martin gellman. he is also with the century foundation. let's take a look at this. in an interview with glenn greenwald and laura appoint poytras. over the weekend, edward snowden offered his motivation as he explained it for giving those documents to reporters. let's watch. >> i'm just another guy who sits there day to day in the office watches what's happening and goes, this is something that's not our place to decide. the public needs to decide whether these programs and policies are right or wrong. >> barton gellman, you know this fellow, right? >> i do. >> tell me about him. if you had to describe him say for a job application or

something about his character, about his as well investigation. he has an unusual background. he seems more like a grad student. maybe somebody we would know here at msnbc, somebody pretty intelligent, sophisticated ideas about thing and yet doesn't seem to show up in the resume. that doesn't mean anything. maybe he is an autodidact, a good thing to say about someone, they out the themselves a lot. how do you figure it all fits together the data we have on him and who he is. >> i guess bill gates and steve jobs did pretty well without degrees. >> that's right. >> this guy is a remarkably intelligent guy. he is very well spoken. he is a heck of a writer. he has developed views about the world and about politics and about what's right and wrong and anyone who takes this kind of risk and whether you like his cause or not or believe his risk was justified or not, it's just objectively speaking this was an act of considerable self-sacrifice to a cause he believed in.

and he has very considerable technical and operational skills because for this particular operation, his adversary was his own agency and he managed to extract documents that he shouldn't extract and get them across an international border. that is not the act of someone who is not a skillful person. >> i want to get to howard and back to you in a moment. there's one thing that screamed at me over the weekend. it's one of the few things that just blew my mind. is it true as you understand it or is it credible that what he says that a guy like him, a young guy 29 years old, no the a not a high big shot in the agency world, not a big company matt at the cia is able at will to out every station chief, every agent in the world. that's what he said. he could have done that if he wanted to be an enemy of the united states. is that credible? >> if you're asking me, i would say yes. i believe him.

i have tested -- i have tested his knowledge on many occasions. i have pressed him. >> wow. >> he is very careful and clear when he says i'm glad you asked that follow-up, because i made an assumption. here's what i know and here's what i think. he's very precise. he offers evidence. and i have not found him to be mistaken about anything he's told me. >> that's to me the most earth shaking thing. i want to bring in howard here. i want to get to some of the background thing. the most earth shattering news is some young person, male, female, not even a cia agent but somebody working at booz allen, a contract employee, has the power to bring down the entire intelligence structure of the world that we've got if place right now by outing every station, every location, every agent just at will if he feels like being the bad guy. >> he said in the videotape with the guardian he could have brought down the entire surveillance of the world in one afternoon. >> that means anybody.

>> not just outing the station chiefs, but also the mechanics of it. he could have ruined the whole thing in one day. he's not that high level a guy. >> right. >> my understanding, there are now -- i've been spending the day trying to get up to speed on something -- by the way "the washington post" did a fantastic job two or three years ago outlining for us the size of the security state. i think people read it at the time. it was almost too much to comprehend. now we put a face to it. i'd recommend that everybody go back and read that thing. find it and read it. bart may have written it for all i know. but it was fantastic. but there are -- i would guess barton could tell me if i'm wrong, there may be hundreds if not thousands of people who have this kind of capability who are not necessarily that high up in the structure but because the structure is so vast now and so interconnected it's it's paradoxically both very powerful and very vulnerable at the same time. >> barton, i've been reading you for years. i know you're one of the top guys. i just wonder, you're a station chief in some hell local like

lebanon or beirut or some place really scary right now, damascus or one of the stands out there with the frightening dictatorships out there, the former soviet union. and you know there's a young guy could say this guy's joe mcginniss. he works over there. let me give you a street address let me give you his cover, a list of the agencies he is use, the agents, and have him knocked out within an hour or two. what do these guys do when they realize this kind of in was is available? >> i want to distinguish one thing. he didn't say he could pick out someone's whole agent network. but it is the case that you need a lot of people relatively speaking to have access to information if it's going to be any use to the government. i want to also make clear this guy, edward snowden chose not to make public anything like this. he recognized that that would be a harmful thing. but one of his crucial points here about the surveillance apparatus is that it is so big

and so powerful and is restrained primarily by two things. one is internal policy decisions which no one can really oversee and the other is code. you know, there's the famous book from a few years back by larry lessig, "code the law." change a line or two of code and you have access to things that until then the rules said you did not. someone who has his facility with computers and his clearances can technically get into things he's not allowed to get into. my guess is if he had stayed around, the auditing system would have said what did you do that for and he would have been in a lot of trouble but he's gone. >> i don't know if i have mixed feelings. i'm still wondering about the existence of this guy. it is an amazing story. this is one of the real big stories of recent months. there are two programs that edward snowden reportedly revealed. the latest courtesy of the "washington post" on friday involves a national security agency program known as prism. it collected online data including video chats, photographs and e-mails on foreign targets.

although those foreign targets could be talking to americans. the nsa worked with companies like microsoft, yahoo! google, facebook, paul talk, aol, skype, youtube and apple. now, americans were not directly argued the, as i said, according to "the washington post." but while going after foreign targets, the program could routinely, that's the word, collect a great deal of american content as well. so they could be reading our e-mails as well as part of this traffic. last week of course of, "the guardian" newpaper broke the news the nsa was collecting telephone information on domestic and international calls for millions of americans that did not include the content, wasn't wiretapping calls, just information when the calls took place and who the person was calling. number to number kind of stuff and length of call. over the weekend, snowden talked about the scope of the program as he saw it. let's listen. >> any analyst at any time can target anyone. any selector anywhere. where those communications will be picked up depends on the range of the sensor networks and the authorities that that

analyst is empowered with, not all analysts have the ability to target everything. but i sitting at my desk certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone from you or your accountant to a federal judge to even the president if i had a personal e-mail. >> we'll get to the that question. director of national intelligence james clapper told nbc's andrea mitchell the idea that the government is listening in on people's private conversations is wrong. let's listen. >> the notion that we're trolling through everyone's e-mails and voyeuristically reading them or listening to everyone's phone calls is on its face absurd. we couldn't do it even if we wanted to and a sure you, we don't want to. >> you know, again, barton, some amazing information. i use that phrase. tell me something i don't know. on my weekend show, i'm going to keep using it. but this guy, i didn't know. did you find it credible that this young fellow again one of thousands or tens of thousands of people like him, could at will tap someone's phone? >> yeah, i do.

i mean the systems exist. what he's saying is there are authorities that he's talking about something technically called faa 702 authorities. if you have that authority and you are cleared for the prism compartment, then you literally had the technical power to do so. when general clapper says the idea that we're reading everybody's e-mail and trolling through it voyeuristically he's not even addressing what edward snowden is saying and he is not addressing what our story is saying which is that they have the power to collect content. they collect a lot of it as they describe it inadvertently. and the crucial difference between now and what used to be the case before 9/11 and before the programs that have seceded in recent years that. >> don't throw it away as they collect it as they describe by accident. they keep it. and they mine it and they are entitled to use that in their subsequent analysis even if they were not allowed to target it for collection in the first place. >> you know, howard, i was

thinking about the eric holder issues and all those questions involving james rosen, fox and all and the a.p. story. if that wall wasn't there the wall between intelligence gathering and prosecution, this whole thing would be available to the justice department, all this rigmarole. >> right. why get a subpoena? >> just call the nsa. they've got it all. and that's a very serious concern. >> call this guy edward snowden. this guy can do anything. >> snowden is a hero or villain, depending on your point of view. but the things he is saying are worth listening to. another thing he said in that video was they have the power because they keep all this stuff and will keep it all to rewrite -- or to selectively write the story of your life retroactively if they decide you're somebody they want to go after. that's the sort of orwellian or even -- >> how rewrite the story? >> they can pick out the details of your life to selectively tell the story they want to tell if they decide they want to go after you. >> i'm learning a lot.

>> that's -- that's the kind of chilling notion that he was putting out there. if they can collect every piece of data about your life. >> one problem here and it's a big problem for people like me, and i think howard too, we want to believe the government can do good things for people. but here we have a case the government doesn't tell what's it's doing. this guy does. who do you trust more, this guy or the government? it's not good for those who want to believe in government. thank you howard and barton. coming up, what's happening at the irs office? that old story is getting new again. and hear some republicans tell it, president obama used the office to target his political enemies. but the man in charge of dealing with those nonprofit groups for the irs says now that the white house had nothing to do with it. and by the way, the guy is a conservative republican. he is the guy that was calling the shots. it could be this whole thing was a big nothing burger. also, why immigration reform could split the gop in two. on one side, republicans saying it's the key to winning back latino voters.

on the other side, conservatives say it will make citizens out of illegal immigrants. it could all be right. our series "the unkindest cuts" about the real effects of those budget cuts known as the sequester, this will scare women especially. the closing of shelters for victims of domestic violence. anyone who cares about women beaten by their husbands, they used to be able to go to these places for protection. they're closing their doors to women trying to get away from scary frightening husband. let me finish with what nelson mandela has done for this country too and for the world. this is "hardball" the place for politics. [ man ] her parents didn't expect her dreams to be so ambitious. italy? oh, that's not good. [ man ] by exploring their options, they learned that instead of going to italy, they could use a home equity loan to renovate their yard and have a beautiful wedding right here while possibly increasing the value of their home. you and roger could get married in our backyard. it's robert, dad. [ female announcer ] come in to find the right credit options for your needs.

because when people talk, great things happen. congressman frank pallone made it official today. he's running for the senate in new jersey. but if the latest poll is any indication, he's got an uphill climb ahead of him. knowledges mayor, that's newark mayor cory booker has an enormous lead in the race with 353%. 53 in the quinnipiac poll. rush holt second at ten points.

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they're paid liar. their spokesperson picture behind, he's still making up things about what happens and calling this local rogue. there's no indication, the reason that lois lerner tried to take the fifth is not because there's a rogue in cincinnati. it's because this is a problem that was coordinated in all likelihood right out of washington headquarters. and we're getting to proving it. >> a whole new english language from issa. in all likelihood, we're getting to proving it. in other words, he has nothing. that was house oversight committee chair darryl size is a. at his best and worst, he has nothing to offer here, asserting the irs scandal began in washington. apparently it didn't. this was supposed to be his smoking gun implicating washington and by inference the white house. it was all obama's fault. what he was getting to prove, as

he put it, was based on excerpts of interviews his staff conducted with irs officials based in cincinnati. those included one unnamed employee saying i took all my direction from washington. well, conspiracy proved hmmm, wrong. issa was criticized at the time for selectively disclosing extremely limited portions of those interviews. why not release them all? why not release more? here's why. it turns out that others in the division including the manager of the group and the person responsible for screaming tax exempt applications directly contradict the cherry-picked statements disclosed by issa. elijah cummings released a new batch of transcripts over the weekend which tell a very different story from issa's. in them, the irs manager which cummings revealed is a republican a conservative was the decision to screen and centralized the review. answer, i do not believe that the screening of these cases had anything to do other than consistency and identifying issues that needed to have further development.

he also added, quote, and that is the guy in charge of that program, do you have any reason to believe that anyone in the white house was involved in the decision to screen tea party cases? answer, i have no reason to believe that. well, u.s. congressman elijah cummings joins us now. sir, this is so amazing because this wild goose chase is what it looks like now that supposedly led all the way to the white house although issa never gets you all the way there. he says i'm working on that one. i just claimed. and now he's calling you. what's your phrase for your latest one, you're extreme and reckless in your assertions, and all you're doing is quoting the witness he refused to acknowledge which is the guy in charge who said i did it because it was a way to do things for consistency's sake. and we got no leadership. i'm a conservative republican. >> that's right. and you know, chris, this is a witness that was called for ar inquiry by the republicans, republicans and democrats sat in on the inquiry and this gentleman said you know, i was

the one who actually sent cases, a case up to washington. apparently what happened is he was -- he had screeners under him. in other words, that worked for him. one of the screeners came to him in february of 2010 and says look, boss, this is a tea -- we've got a tea party case here and what they are asking for is they want tax exempt status. his boss, that is the self-described republican conservative republican said, you're right. we need to send this to washington. this is a high profile case. we want to make sure we are consistent. we want to make sure that other cases that may come in we treat them the same way. and let me tell you something, chris. this conservative republican manager is a guy who was simply trying to do his job and do it right. no doubt about it. he sat for almost six hours with republican and democratic staff and told us his story. and he made it clear that he was

the one who sent the file, the initial tea party file up to the technical office of irs in washington. and then he -- >> okay, so this -- >> go ahead. >> and then he went to his screeners an said look, i also want you to look for other case that might be similar because we want to tiit them all the same. keep in mind now conservative republican did this. and again, trying to do his job right. and so one of the screeners pulled together the cases. they said, well, maybe we need to change to get some other terms. that's where the 912 came in and the patriot came in as types of words that would be target words and that person has said that it was not about any political motivation. they were simply trying to do their job. >> why don't you release all the transcripts? >> i am -- chairman issa had

said on another network last week that he would release the transcripts. as you know, chris, you worked on the hill. i try to give deference to the chairman. he is the chairman. but i have said on another network and i'll say it tonight again, i am anxious to have every syllable of the transcripts submitted and to the public. i trust the public to read them and see what i saw. i don't want a little tidbit here and there. i think we should have the total picture. and so i've said that by friday, if the chairman doesn't want to release them like he promised, like he promised, what we will do, we will do the redactions because there are a lot of names in those transcripts that we've got to protect the innocent, and then submit them to the public and to the media so that you all can make your own judgment. there's nothing in those transcripts that i'm afraid of. you know why? because i've said from the beginning we must follow the situation the evidence wherever it may lead. and all i want is the truth.

period. >> okay. let's take a look. the transcripts shed more light on who gave the order to screen for groups using terms like tea party and patriot. according to the transcripts it was the cincinnati based employee who devised that method on his own. he says, quote, tea party was just a term, but tea parties by another name may have been something else. there's other terms i used. one was patriots and 912 projects. at one point i used the word tea but t-e-a doesn't get you very far, so i had to watch my queries and zero in on what i wanted. how high up the chain does it go? not very far. his manager was asked "i'm getting you did not instruct screening agent to use those terms in the march 2010 time period. response, i did not. the interviewer continues i'm guessing you also did not instruct anyone other than screening agent to search for tea party cases in spring 2010 using those type, those criteria. his answer, i did not. let me ask you. if you had to write a time

capsule statement of what you know as ranking member on the committee, the top democrat, it seems to me if you put together the raw information and the ig report which started this rigmarole and you put together the evidence you got from the transcript portion at least that says this was all self-energized, self-created this situation, nothing is here. no party politics. no clever stuff. no hanky panky if you will politically. it's just a couple of people or one guy even trying to find a way to get his job done quicker. to get it done more effectively. that's the entire story. >> that is the entire story, chris. and again, that's why i'm hoping that the chairman will release these transcripts. that is the story. by the way, we have not gotten any evidence whatsoever out of all the inquiries we have made of anybody who said that there was a white house connection to any of this. >> yeah. does anybody over there, i know you do. does anybody over on that committee including issa of

ever think about the national interest, that it's not in the national interest to have people believe that the irs is crooked, that it's a joke, that it's out there looking around for people's political enemies and checking in with the white house to see who does he want screwed that week. it's not in the interest of a country who wants revenues collected honestly and with integrity. they want to feel it's a good government that they're helping get its job done and to have this word spread to maliciously and recklessly, there is a use of a term your chairman likes, it's awful. can't you sit down with a guy and say darrell, the country is not going to be a better country because it suspects every irs agent. >> you know, my friend the lake jack kemp, the republican congressman, used to say the best way to serve your party is to serve your country first. and that's what you're saying. i agree with that. again, i just want to follow the truth. whatever it is. whatever it may be. and then we can -- don't forget our committee is government and oversight and reform. but in order to properly reform,

chris, you got to have complete information. >> i'm glad you're there. thank you, congressman. >> thank you. thank you very much. >> elijah cummings on maryland, ranking democrat on that committee. up next, be hillary clinton joins the twitterverse. i haven't heard that before. twitterverse. there she is. this is "hardball," the place for politics. when we made our commitment to the gulf, bp had two big goals: help the gulf recover, and learn from what happened so we could be a better, safer energy company. i've been with bp for 24 years.

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ceiling cracker, and tbd. in her inaugural tweet, she credited the individuals responsible for the popular texts from hillary account for getting her on board. the now famous picture of the former secretary of state with her blackberry along with captions like hey, hill, what are you doing from president obama and her response, running the world. next cory booker officially announced his plans to run for the senate in 2013. here's a line from his speech that just might have a double meaning. >> but there's one thing that everyone has to admit about my life as a professional. from my days working in housing high-rises here in newark as a tenants rights attorney to my time as mayor is that i do not run from challenges. i run towards them. >> hmm. he's talking about his professional life there, of course, but throughout his stint as new york's mayor, booker has seemed to run towards other kinds of challenges, like when a dog was left on a doorstep in freezing cold temperatures and

booker rushed to the scene. >> this is brutal weather out here. this dog is shaking really bad. and you just can't leave your dogs out on a die like this and go away. >> crank up the heat. >> when he returned home from work one day last year to find his neighbor's home on fire, booker and members of his security detail ran inside and rescued a woman. >> it was very scary moment because i couldn't find her. it looked like i couldn't get back through where i came from, and i couldn't breathe, and it was a moment that i felt very religious, let's put it that way. i finally heard her and found an opening where i could grab her. and so just grabbed her as quickly as i could and decided to go through the kitchen. i appreciate people saying over the top, i did not feel heroic. it all happened very, very quickly. i feel very blessed that she and i got out of that building alive. >> then there was tropical storm sandy. booker's answer to individuals stuck at home without electricity from his twitter feed, i've got space you can relax in, charge devices and a working dvd player. come by.

that helps explain why he's entering this race for the senate with a double digit lead over opponents. finally, what's one one way to cut down on political extremism? how about asking people to actually explain their point of view. a new study published in the psychological science journal went like this. step one. people were asked to rank their position on polarizing issues like instituting a national flat tax or raising retirement age for social security. the scale went roughly from strongly against to strongly in favor. step two, after the initial ranking participants were asked to go into detail why they thought the policies did or did not work. step three, after providing their knowledge on the issue, participants were asked to then rerank their position. well, according to the researchers, asking people to simply explain how policies worked decreased their reported understanding of the policies and led them to report more moderate attitudes towards those policies. isn't it fascinating? next time's someone's going off about some political position they have, try ask them to explain what they're talking

about. things might simmer down a bit. up next, why immigration reform might split the republican party in two. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. copd makes it hard to breathe... but with advair, i'm breathing better. so now i can help make this a great block party. ♪ [ male announcer ] advair is clinically proven to help significantly improve lung function. unlike most copd medications, advair contains both an anti-inflammatory

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i'm milissa rehberger. here is what is happening. a southwest airplane has been diverted from los angeles to phoenix. police are checking out a possible threat on board. the plane is isolated and is parked away from the terminal. students at santa monica college returned to classes today, following friday's deadly shooting rampage that left six people dead in and around campus. a vigil for the victims will be held tonight. and queen elizabeth visited prince philip in the hospital today to celebrate her husband's 92nd birthday. back to "hardball."

welcome back to "hardball." a trio of white house controversies and a massive nsa security leak have kept republicans occupied to their enjoyment in many cases. while most of the rhetoric particularly surrounding the irs and benghazi issues have taken aim at destroying the white house, there are signs they have woken up to a bigger and more important political reality for their own party. immigration reform. in the 2012 election, we all know democrats took the latino vote by a margin of more than 40 points. if republicans know what's good for them, they may get aboard quickly on the issue. we'll see. but while the bipartisan gang of eight in the senate, their immigration bill is moving forward, divisions and defections within the republican party are threatening reform, particularly in the house, which is controlled so strongly by gop conservatives. but there's a bigger question to be answered right now.

even if the miraculous happens and congress cobbles together a bill, is it going to be one we're proud to fully enforce? that's my position. i want a bill that works. joining me now is political analyst edward rendell, former governor of pennsylvania, and msnbc contributor victoria defrancesca soto, protester at the university of texas. i want to start with the governor. you're an executive. you know what it means to put something into law and make it work. are you confident after all the democrats and republicans left to right agree on something, they will agree on something better than the joke they passed in '86 that they never intended to enforce? >> yeah, i am, chris. although the aspects of this bill, even if you take the gang of eight senate bill, some of the aspects of this bill are going to be tough to enforce, not because of lack of will but because they're going to require a level of skill and competence i don't know if we're there yet. for example, e-verification. as you know, e-verification is not anywhere close to 100%, but

it ramps up each year as the technology gets better. border security, are those goals realistic? i think everyone hopes they are but the question is can they be. but i think overall, it's important for the country first for the republican party second that we get a bill that's workable and it's a good bill and that can be enforced. it's not going to be easy. implementation is going to be a hurdle too, but i think we can do it. >> the simpson mazole bill was passed in '86 and signed into law in president reagan. while it was touted as a solution to the immigration problem, something on enforcement, something on legalization, it failed badly. here are a few reasons why it failed. we ought to know this when we pass this bill. it failed to curtail the flow of illegal immigrants. the original system got watered down so much, all employers had to do was make sure an immigrant's paperwork reasonably appears on its face to be genuine. there's a pretty good piece of counterfeit.

if the documents were decent fakes, the boss wasn't responsible. add it up and the number of illegal immigrants soared to 11 million today. victoria, i want to ask you about that question. my belief is if we pass a joke again, we'll have just as much anger about illegal immigration. this issue is never going to go away. the social turmoil is not going to go away. assimilation is not going to be any better. we'll just have hell on wheels again for 20 more years. do you have confidence or do you believe in a bill that is going to be tough as well as lenient in terms of the path to citizenship? >> chris, i do. and when we're talking about the 1986 law and we compare it to the present legislation, we're comparing apples to oranges because even though there were provisions for border enforcement, they were really minimal. in 1993, there was only about 353 million allocated to border security. now we have close to $7 billion allocated to border security. again, you pointed out e-verify really was nonexistent.

now even though it's going to be phased in, by a certain point it will be mandatory for everyone. so we're really talking about a whole different piece of legislation. at the end of the day, immigration happens because there's a demand. if you curtail the demand, we don't have to build fences. but if employers are not hiring undocumented immigrants, we're going to solve the problem. >> do you think -- i want to ask you because you're involved in this more than the governor. woouf been involved in it a lot. do you think we can get to a situation where we have an enforced on the books on the level immigration policy like other countries do? we may be the only country where people pour into the place. i mean where we are progressive. we let in people who are liberal. we're welcoming and all that good stuff allowing people to come in permanently or temporarily depending on the situation and the jobs. people assimilate over time. certainly their kids do. we're a happy country and not going to be arguing about this 20 years from now. do you think it's possible? i absolutely do, chris. i absolutely do. it goes back to the demand. the poll.

why do people come here? because there are people who will hire them. so if we tell these people who like to undercut american citizens and hire cheap undocumented immigrants and also exploit these immigrants and say you can't do this and if you do, you're going to go to jail, you're going to pay a lot of money if you do this, people are not going to come over. they're going to stay with their family and stay home. >> i don't want some joker that runs a hot dog factory deciding who is an american. that should be up to the united states. governor, have you confidence about this. who do you trust on this issue? i think rubio is trying to do it the right way because he knows he's in a conservative political party and he better deliver not just on helping people get here legalized finally, but also have a decent system of enforcement. i think his party won't settle for less than that. >> i agree, chris. but i also think that president obama has to make sure if this law passes at the end of this year, early '14 that there are steps taken, very strong steps to make sure enforcement is key. i think the key to resolving the problem you're talking about is

a good guest worker statute part of the statute. >> me too. >> if we get a good workable guest worker path, i think that solves a lot of problems. a lot of people come over here he not because they want to be citizens but because they want a job that pays better than where they are. >> immediate cash needs and they want to go back in a few months after the harvest season and i have an ton of money to take home. border security remains the biggest hurdle, of course. i guess in the senate, republican john cornyn of texas crafting an amendment that calls for stricter border control before immigrants could apply for citizenship. he wants 100% monitoring capability. at least 90% of all illegal immigrants apprehended. and a biometric exit system. his proposal has won praise from republicans like senator rubio who is working on his own border security measure. according to "the hill", which is the newspaper on the hill, senate sources say rubio is working on amendments to bolster

border security apart from border security package drafted by cornyn. but these measures could risk toppling the bill. that's my question. cornyn's amendments have been called a poison pill by harry reid. back to you. victoria, when do you reach the tipping point where the latino community and liberals and people who generally want to see better treatment of people who have been here a number of years, especially when they say i'm off the bus? >> you know, i think in terms of border security, latinos are on board with it. they understand that the united states is a sovereign country. they need to protect their borders. but what they don't like is the poison pill aspect of it that john cornyn is being disingenuous. he's not really concerned that the border is unsafe. for those of us who live on the border who have spent time on the border, you see the border. you see the troops. you see the border patrol there. it's secure. all right. we'll throw more money at it. but if you're doing something just to derail this, latinos will turn their back even more on the republican party. >> okay, thank you. i think you have nailed the politics of this pretty well. thank you, victoria di francesco

soto and governor ed rendell. coming up was it necessary to close shelters for victims of domestic violence, these are women looking to get away from dangerous spouses. is it smart for the government to cut spending for that kind of refuge? the unkindest cut, our latest example coming up next. this is "hardball," the place for politics. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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massachusetts. look at the poll. the suffolk poll this afternoon gives markey a seven-point lead over republican gabrielle gomez, 48-41. that's pretty consistent with other polls in the race, 48-41. here's the huffington pollster trend line. markey is maintaining a durable lead. the election is june 25th. what a time to be voting in june, like getting married in late june. we'll be right back. you make a great team. it's been that way since the day you met. but your erectile dysfunction - it could be a question of blood flow. cialis tadalafil for daily use helps you be ready anytime the moment's right. you can be more confident in your ability to be ready.

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wheels and cuts to the head start programs for preschoolers that could wind up with 70,000 children shut out of the program. even cuts to nih funding that could curtail critical medical ultimately affects all of us, of course. today we focus on something pretty scary. it's cuts to funding for victims of domestic violence. access to a shelter, a place to go, can sometimes mean the difference between life and death for someone in an abusive, scary relationship. >> these shelters and domestic programs are taking a serious blow. $20 million in cuts on top of years of cuts that have left many programs operating on a shoestring budget. an estimated 70,000 fewer victims could have access to shelters right now. kim ganny is ceo, and gene robinson is pulitzer prize winning columnist for the "washington post" and msnbc contributor. kim, thank you for joining us. i'm reading the book called "safe haven" about a woman who has to escape from a frightening husband who is a police officer

which makes it scarier with all his ability to track her down. you know, when you think about, i mean, i learned a lot from the movies like "sleeping with the enemy" with julia roberts and idea of a husband, i've known two friends of mine over the years who married husbands who beautifully courted the women and the minute the marriage took place became monsters and the marriages had to end quickly for the safety of the woman. they go to places where they can no longer go for security and refuge. tell me what it means. >> chris, first, thank you for shining a light on this. we cannot afford to wait until another woman is murdered, maybe her children, too, because she was not able to find shelter. one thing we know from experience is the most dangerous time for a woman is right after she leaves. once she makes that decision and leaves the situation, that's when she's in the most danger of being killed. when she's in the most need of safety planning and shelter in a secure place for herself and her

children. we already know that women are being turned away. victims are being turned away fromq shelter because of dramatc cuts in funding. we're even seeing shelters that are closing and others, particularly in rural areas, that are in danger of closing this year because they can't keep their doors open. if you've only got two staff left, there's no way you can operate a 24-hour shelter, then where will the women of that community turn? >> gene, this one is not hard to figure this one out. >> yeah. i mean -- >> it's scary. >> this is scary, and this should be completely noncontroversial, right? you would think, the whole sequester was a dumb idea, dumbly conceived, dumbly executed. when you realize something like this is going on you think there should be a con census, let's fix this, fixing the faa problem so there wouldn't be long lines at the airplane. >> on the airplanes.

people in good marriages, they're healthy and happy. these cutters, the people that these women aren't getting to vote very much, are they? >> well, they're not giving big campaign contributions and so they're really not politically apparently an important constituency which is just stunning. >> let's talk turkey. kim, how do you fight this? is there anybody you've been able to find, we called it in wrestling, i guess, pressure points. i imagine these things. i didn't wrestle. but you look for the way to pin the person. how do you get the members of congress and say, look, some women are going to die this week because these shelters are closed their doors to them. >> that's exactly the message we're giving. we thad the state executive directors from nearly every state in the country along with their shelter advocates here in washington just last week on capitol hill meeting one by one. illinois, i know, met with 18 different members to say what's happening to them. what's really happening out there. and one member of congress

referred to the amount of money at stake here as budget dust. it's such a small amount of money. the program, family violence prevention services act program that funds the core services for most of the shelters in the country is authorized at $175 million. it's being funded now at $121 million and even that's being cut. the difference, 50 million lives. many lives. lives of our neighbors, our friends and our family members. and 50 million in this budget is nothing. >> just seeing here that 88% of state coalitions concerned about this reported domestic violence programs have recently experienced an increase in demand for services. because the problem is getting bigger and the failure to meet it is getting bigger. thank you, kim gandy. please come back again. gene robinson, as always. as we continue our unkindest cut series, tell us how you've been affected by congress' across the

board automatic spending cuts. tweet us at #unkindestcut and join the conversation on our facebook page at facebook.c facebook.com/hardball. our website, tv.msnbc.com and click on "hardball." and we'll be right back. this day calls you.

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let me finish tonight with this. nelson mandela is in critical condition tonight. perhaps the world's greatest

hero, he built a historic legacy while still in prison. he refused to leave robben island until white ruled south africa legalized the congress. when it did, we knew the world was changing down there, that getting majority rule was just a matter of time. i was there when the first election was held when mandela was elected president $ñam=uq!ñ africa. it was a glorious day of people waiting in line for hours so they could be part of the great change coming over that country. a change nelson mandela made possible. we all thought it might take a horrible bloodshed to change south africa. the united states played a good part in making that not the case. we did it with the comprehensive anti-apartheid act of 1986 which brought economic sanctions against the white world society. it helped tomy change history f the better. i had the privilege of being with archbishop tutu when he voted that great day, of interviewing nelson mandela with the president-elect afterwards. it was along with the fall of the berlin wall the greatest stories i've ever gotten to cover. i expect to be going to south africa to honor the great man

once again when the time comes. it is impossible to measure the good this pain of this man, his faith, his leadership has meant to our time. it was he who instilled in millions of south africans the power of the ballot, the joy of democracy. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayess. thank you for joining us. tonight, we have a name and a face of the man at the center of the nsa surveillance revelations. the question still remain, are the programs necessary, are they dangerous? we'll be debating the issue coming up. also tonight, how is this happening in america? another major metropolitan city is closing almost two dozen schools, laying off hundreds of teachers and aides, but plans for a new $400 million prison e