are rand paul and ted cruz ramrodding the republican party? let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews down in washington. let me start tonight with this. it's in the a hard thing separating the two parties today if you think about it. the democrats are led by the president, a progressive. the republicans are led, well, it's a moving question there. there's the hard right majority in the house that moves john boehner about at will. there's mitch mcconnell the republican senate leader. then there's the half the republicans in the senate who are clearly to mcconnell's right. then there are the three on the hardest right of course, rand paul, ted cruz, and mike lee who are the loudest noises out there. when the vice president joe biden said the other day it's the party, the republican party is cowering to paul and cruz, i say he's on the money. just as every republican senator fears a primary challenge from the right, so does the republican party as a whole fear a challenge in the national debate from rand paul and ted

cruz. let's talk about the power of these two and whether one of them might be the next republican presidential nominee. james carville, of course, is a democratic strategist. and howard fineman is an msnbc contributor with the "huffington post." james, thank you for joining us tonight. let's hear what he had to say, vice president biden, who is a pretty smart guy understanding politics. he's been around since '72. hasn't lost an election. here he is. biden said the gop cowers in fear of senators paul and cruz. at a fund-raiser last night for congressman ed markey, biden said quote, the last thing in the world we need now is someone who will go down to the united states senate and support ted cruz. support the new senator from kentucky rand paul. think about this. have you ever seen a time when two freshmen senators were able to cower the bulk of the republican party in the senate? that is not hyperbole. case in point the power they put on display in defeating the mansion toomey bill for gun background checks.

he told the audience on the gun issue, i don't care what your position is. i called 17 senators out and nine of whom were republicans and not one of them offered an explanation on the merits why they couldn't vote for the background check. but almost to a person had he they said i don't want to take on ted cruise or rand paul. they'll be in my district." james, is the party tilting to the two sharpest voices? >> i just had a thought what you and i and howard on air, we're the only three people around almost as long as the vice president has. >> i was thinking of you in the dogged campaign. i'm not sure how far back that goes. you would call the speaker's office and i would hear about a guy with a southern accent from louisiana talking about a guy named lloyd. >> i was still in the business. i was about midterm for me. howard been covering me for god knows how long. i was talking to you back in '84. at any rate, look, the problem republicans have is what i call lester maddux problem. he said the problem with the georgia prisons is the quality of inmate. the quality is the people that vote in the caucuses and

primaries. they'll find ted cruz, a talented sharp guy or rand paul who can raise a lot of money to be very attractive. you're right. it does scare these other republicans but i don't think there's much they can do about it. >> i'm just asking. when you read that there was a vote in the senate caucus and that demint barely lost to mcconnell. and he was running to his right. when you think about mitch mcconnell being the villain for progressives, you got to look to his right to see the real challenge. >> that's right. you see that in kentucky which is where i began. >> two guys there. >> you've got this interesting interplay between the new guy rand paul who took on mitch mcconnell's designated candidate in the republican primary in 2010. >> trey grayson. >> blew him out of the water. now mitch mcconnell and rand paul have a pretty good working relationship.

mitch mcconnell's up for re-election in 2014. he's got paul's support. he's got rand paul's campaign manager. he's in pretty good shape, mitch mcconnell is. he's very much aware from personal experience of the power of the tea party grassroots and so he's going to respond to it. as he navigates the immigration bill, that's going to be a very good test case to see how mitch mcconnell handles this. he's got rand paul who is trying to set himself up as the dealmaker in the senate. as the guy in the senate who can go to the house tea party people. what's going on right now is a competition between rand paul and marco rubio to be the dealmaker with the tea party.

>> on what issues? >> marco rubio is now considered the liberal on immigration. >> what issues can they deal? i'm curious. >> on immigration. >> let's take a look at some of cruz's greatest hits. comment on these when they're done. >> internally in the republican conference, we've had probably five or six lunches. they said listen, before you did this, the politics of it were great. now we all look like a bunch of squishes. well, there is an alternative. you could just not be a bunch of squishes. >> i refer to this new generation of leads as the children of reagan because we learned watching him. i'm going to suggest the last election can be explained in two words. 47%. i think republicans are and should be the party of the 47%. let me be clear, i don't trust the republicans. i don't trust the democrats. i think president obama is the most radical president we've ever seen. but i think an awful lot of republicans fail to stand for principle.

>> that doesn't include remarks that cruz has made behind the cameras like in 2010 when he said that obama would make a perfect president of harvard law school because, quote, there were far fewer republicans in the faculty when we were there than communists. assuming the communists would vote for the president. he fits the tradition of mccarthy and maybe pat buchanan and o'reilly. these guys are hard right wing guys. they look a lot alike. they have the black irish look to them. they don't smile much. it's quite a tradition here but it does run to the right of the regular republican party. >> you know, if we showed this to a focus group of iowa caucus goers, anything like that. they would love this. they would go that's our guy. to us it seems kind of way out there. but to the people that are going to decide that, he's the most desired lincoln day speaker they have. he's got more invitations to go speak to republicans around the country than the next three people.

when you look at that, you can't look at it like we would. you've got to look at it like you're somebody in iowa or south carolina, one of these kind of states and you're going to say that guy's right. you can't trust anybody. he's speaking out. he's fearless. >> you know, the worst thing that people can say about obama and there's a bunch of people like them down in texas like poe and gohmert. they say obama may be born to an american mother. they never challenge that. so ooze a citizen but they said he was foreign born and already can't be president. same situation with cruz. he's born to an american mother. nobody denies that. but he was born in canada. how are they going to put him up for president under the rules they themselves say disqualify request obama from being president. >> because the same rules don't apply to them. >> oh, well. i'm sorry for being slow.

i'm a slow reader here. >> no matter what obama is, he's going to be anything that you can imagine. a guy that's the anti-christ or whatever. they don't apply the same rules to them as they apply to democrats. you've been around long enough to know that. >> i thought for a moment consistency might be important. howard? >> i think ted cruz would welcome a debate on that or anything else. first of all, he's a very, very smart guy. he's a terrific debater. he's very, very sharp. and he has an edge of anger to him. >> yeah, like the other guys i mentioned. >> more even than rand paul. rand paul, i'm reporting on these people. rand paul has a sort of a little bit of a twinkle in his eye from time to time. his is more of a philosophical ayn rand kind of thing. it's got more of a broad philosophical thing to it. ted cruz has an edge of anger and retribution about him that some people might find appealing. i'm not sure i totally agree with james on iowa and south carolina republican caucus and primary voters only because ted cruz may be a little too strong for them.

>> me too. >> it's one thing to get invited to the -- and james knows. it's one thing to get invited to gin up the crowd at the lincoln day dinner. it's another thing if you're an iowa caucus goer saying wait a minute, i want to pick somebody who might get elected president. >> is a demagogue a good career plan? it worked for huey long for a while and coughlin for a while and certainly mccarthy for a while and some people more recently. is it a career move to be a demagogue. >> first of all, rick santorum won the iowa caucuses and newt gingrich won the south carolina primary. >> i realized i stepped in it when i said that. >> okay. we're trying -- again, we're trying to -- these people believe in global cooling. all right? they believe in self-deportation. or they believe that tax cuts for rich people help middle class people have higher incomes. weapons of mass destruction.

you're trying to apply a thought of a rational thing to and i go back, that's the way these voters are over there. >> i would also say though that there are many, many tens of millions of people who are very skeptical about government. even if they're taking the medicare payments or looking forward to social security. >> government. >> they're very skeptical about government. don't like the reach of government. they distrust everything about it. they have some legitimate reasons to feel that way. >> they say keep the government out of medicare. >> don't take away my medicare. >> here's a guy making noise on the inside. here's darrell issa, he's gotten pretty tough. a few weeks ago, he released limited pieces from interviews his committee conducted over at the irs. those excerpts were his smoking gun proof that washington and by inference the white house were the ones that targeted the tea party targeting in that agency. while saying he was cherry picking those to further his anti-obama agenda, he said the full transcripts will be released. take a listen. >> the full transcript will be

put out. these are in realtime. the administration is still, their spokesperson paid liar, he's still making up things about what happens and calling this local rogue. this was a problem coordinated in all likelihood right out of washington headquarters and we're getting to proving it. >> one conundrum for him, the committee's ranking democrat elijah cummings released additional excerpts directly contradicting his claims. cummings says he'll release the full transcripts by friday if issa doesn't do it. issa now doesn't want the full letter released. in a letter to cummings, he said he pushed you're pushed to release entire transcripts while the investigation remains active was reckless and threatened to undermine the integrity of the committee's investigation. if a full transcript were released it would serve as a road map of the investigation. the transcript could be used by

2350u67 witnesses and their attorneys to prepare answers to likely questions and device testimony consistent with the narrative that previous witnesses presented to committee investigators. when you think about it, the last person in congress with the standing, the credibility that keeps anyone else of devising a narrative is one darrell issa who seems to have built a campaign here. you and i have been around in this business for a long time. i see a pattern of career here. it's the old pattern of using the investigative committee, mccarthy and nixon did it. it seems to be issa's strategy. why do the american people like the investigator today more than perhaps the constructive legislator? >> first of all, this morning i was talking to a friend of mine. how do you show your face. we can't tell people what's going on after -- again. he's a fool. you know, it's obvious that they know what happened in this. they've interviewed everybody. of course the white house didn't dictate this or anything else. i've said on fox or any number of places i thought the investigation was legitimate. that if there was any target of somebody based on politics and anybody i'm sure the two of you

would find it hideous and offensive if that was the case. it's obviously not the case. they ought to close the investigation and tell people what happened. >> thank god for elijah cummings. he's going to rat them out. apparently. howard, next question. >> i think -- i do think it's worth an investigation. and i also think if the republicans were looking for the way to play it best politically, darrell issa is not the way to play it. you need to do it more in sorrow than anger. you need to do it step by step. you need to build a case. you need to take a legal approach to it because on its face it's outrageous. you don't need to pound the table about the misbehavior in cincinnati. >> i'm going to clean up the mess at the irs. >> you don't need to overplay your hand. in terms of political theater, darrell issa has certainly done that. >> i think it's going to hurt anybody who believes in government because the irs is paying for the government with our money. thank you.

coming up, there's a new front line in the battle over sexual assaults in the u.s. military. the senate armed services committee is looking on legislation to help protect members of our military from abuse, but one key provision is being tripped center the bill. plus, feeding big government paranoia. ed snowden is on the lam, of course. he's running literally for his life. that's the thinking according to ron paul who says he's worried that the american government is going to kill snowden with a drone strike. okay? and money talk. new york mayor mike bloomberg is asking big donors to withhold making donations to democrats in the senate who didn't vote in favor of the gun safety bill. but really is going after democrats the smart strategy? and bill clinton received a bill award yesterday. that's in the sideshow coming up. this is "hardball," the place for politics. want younger looking eyes that say wow? with olay, here's how.

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as i mentioned vice president biden spoke at i fund-raiser last night for senate candidate up in massachusetts edward markey. today president obama made the trip to massachusetts to show his support for markey running against gabriel gomez. latest polls show parky with a solid lead. wbur has markey ahead by seven. that's consistent with the other polls. 46-39. the numbers aren't all in yet. the latest umass poll numbers show an 11-point lead for markey. 51-40. we'll be right back. you want to get over 50% in these things.

welcome back to hoard "hardball." we've brought you many stories on the of story of sexual assault in the u.s. military and women in the armed services committee were bringing it to you. the most vocal is new york senator kristin gillibrand who wanted the prosecution taken out of the chain of command. meaning out of the uniformed people. let's listen. >> and not all commanders are

objective. not every single commander necessarily wants women in the force. not every single commander believes what a sexual assault is. not every one can distinguish between a slap on the ass and a rape because they merge all of these crimes together. >> today the democratic chairman of the committee carl levin said taking it out of the chain of command was not necessarily the best remedy. carl levin of michigan. >> i do not support removing the authority of commanders to prosecute sexual assault cases and putting that decision in the hands of military lawyers outside of the chain of command. as the personnel subcommittee provision would do. i believe that doing so would weaken our response to sexual assault and actually make it less likely that sexual assaults would be prosecuted. >> with that same markup hearing, senator gillibrand pushed back. let's listen to her. >> the victims tell us they do not report because of chain of command. so i disagree with the statements today and previously that the chain of command at the disposition phase is the problem. it's not that their decision's wrong. it's that they are the decider and the victims have said i'm not reporting because it's within the chain of command.

>> today the senate armed services committee voted to keep the prosecution of sexual assaults inside the military within the armed forces chain of command itself. senator claire mccaskill who has pushed for many reforms voted with the chair today. you know, this is a tough one. i'm learning this. by the way, look at this breakdown, senator. these sexual assaults aren't yelling hey cutie or nice dress today or something. these are incredible. a third of the cases involving women. involve sexual touching. a third attempted sexual intercourse, attempted rape.

a third completed sexual intercourse, rape. these charges are almost to the level of capital crime. they're incredibly serious. sexual assault certainly felonies. these are not misbehaviors. can you trust the military to enforce the law here? >> well, you have to understand, chris, that my decision today was guided by years of experience as a courtroom prosecutors handling hundreds of these cases. and i believe what we have done today has strengthened the environment for successful prosecutions and it will support the victims. we have taken out of the chain of command the review. so if a commander doesn't agree with a lawyer, then it goes straight up to the civilian secretary of that branch of the military. no uniform. secondly, if both the lawyer and the commander say you know we don't want to handle this, it gets another review. the most important thing we have worry about in this area is retaliation against the victim. in what we passed today, unlike the previous proposal, it's a

crime to retaliate and i firmly believe that victims will have less retaliation when the commander has signed off on the case going forward rather than just lawyers outside the unit that no one knows. >> what happens if you're a sergeant and it's a lieutenant that did it to you and you report to that lieutenant? >> first of all, do you not have to report the crime through the chain of command. we have lots of places you can report the crime. you do not have to go through the chain of command. you can go to a health care facility. you can go to a special unit we've now created in the military to report these crimes. and then the criminal investigators take it. and if at the point in time it's time to file charges the commander can either sign off but if he doesn't, then it goes straight to the secretary. the civilian head of that armed forces branch. >> and how would it be different if you had an independent operation like the one gillibrand wants. >> as a former prosecutor, i can tell you, there are a lot of these cases that prosecutors don't want to go near.

and frankly, we file cases in the military that civilian prosecutors say no thanks. so if the prosecutor said no under senator gillibrand's plan, it would be over. it would be over. under our plan, if the prosecutor says no, if the lawyers say no, there's still another level of review. so what this is doing is basically saying, commanders have you no business overturning verdicts. we took that away. victims are entitled to more support. we. put that in. but at the same time, it's saying we're going to create a culture within the command that if you do not support these victims or if retaliation occurs you're going to be relieved of your command and you can be prosecuted for retaliation. >> how long are you going to see if this works before you go to stronger action? >> as i said today, anybody who thinks we're going away on this doesn't know us very well. >> good. >> the women on the armed

services committee, we are committed on a bipartisan basis. you know, some of us split today. but that doesn't mean we're split in terms of our passion or focus. we're going to hold these guys' feet to the fire. this is now their mission to create an environment where successful prosecutions can put these predators behind bars an we're mot going to give up on this till it happens. >> you know, these numbers are unbelievable. almost 4,000 rapes in the military between enlisted people in the united states military. one doing it to another. it's unbelievable. thank you so much, senator mccaskill. former congressman from pennsylvania patrick murphy, you have a different view. you're with gillibrand. >> that's right. and i do want to start -- >> you're a j.a.g. >> i prosecuted sex crimes when i was in the military and used to work in the philadelphia d.a.'s office. let me start, chris, senator mccaskill has been awesome. and a lot of women in the senate and the house have been awesome on this. the steps they made today are great. what's called ucmj article 60 taking that away to make sure these verdicts stand where they are. where i differ from the senator is that it needs to be independent. senator mccaskill did try sex crimes but she never had to go to a mayor or to the governor to get permission to prosecute these cases.

it should be an independent military justice system. and let me say one other thing. senator leahy who i respect has a bill to say let's put it in the civilian side. that's a bridge too far. senator gillibrand's proposal in this bill is the moderate step. to make sure that women move forward. the problem here is there's been 26,000 sexual assaults in the military estimated. only 15% of the women are disclosing what's going on. the number one reason as senator gillibrand mentioned in the hearing today was because they're afraid of the chain of command. by keeping it separate from the chain of command and within the judge advocate system let them decide what cases to bring on these felony cases. chris, if its a comment in formation, something that was not right or a sergeant says, hey, good looking. that's not a trial. that should be a reprimand what's called nonjudicial

punishment in article 15. under gillibrand's bill, that stays within the chain of command. but these felony cases -- >> i'm with you because look, i keep thinking when i look at these numbers, i think about the worst prison movies i've ever seen. you know, shawshank redemption and stuff like that where you've got rape. these cases are astounding. women being raped by male enlisted men. a third of them actual rapes. the second largest count attempted rapes. these people are still in the military. >> the numbers are going up. listen, i have a lot of faith and confidence in hagel and odierno. they say it is a leadership. they're addressing it. they just fired a japan

commander by the way last weekend. still it's a systemic issue. that's why it needs. >> why is it a systemic issue. >> part of it is because they have to go and prosecute these cases and go to a brigade commander. >> this behavior isn't systemic. people don't join to become rapists, do they. >> no, they don't. it's the same percentage as in the civilian sector. but as you know, the military should be a higher standard. >> i would think so. people should take the oath seriously. thank you for the expertise. up next with the late night comedians have to say about what's been happening at the nsa. this is "hardball," the place for politics. you make a great team.

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back to "hardball" and now to the sideshow. first a late night roundup on all the things dealing with the nsa. >> let's get straight to the

story everyone's talking about. the nsa. knows what everyone's talking about. >> get a warrant. go after a terrorist or a murderer or a rapist. but don't troll through a billion phone records every day. that is unconstitutional. i'm going to be seeing if i can challenge this at the supreme court level. >> i'm not sure that you are the right person to lead this particular challenge. you might remember that when the justices ruled obama care constitutional last year, rand paul said just because a couple people on the supreme court declare something to be constitutional does not make it so. >> i saw an interesting commercial directed to newly graduated men and women in this country. it's fascinating. take a look at this for june grads. >> are you interested in building your future while you help your country? the national security agency is looking for bright motivated men and women who can keep their [ bleep ] mouths shut. the national security agency, the good hands people.

>> well, next updates from some other former presidents. former president george herbert walker bush turns 89 years old today and his presidential library in texas has a way for everyone to get in on the celebration, if you will. this all has to do with bush's affinity for bearing color full sox which the library foundation asked people to don tear most colorful socks and post a photo to their facebook page. the former president led the way with this one. his own mismatched socks accompanied by his great granddaughter. there's this one of bush in superman socks. now to bill clinton. got a completely nonpolitical award yesterday. here's his daughter chelsea doing the honors. >> he every day is my dad and i don't need an award to tell me he's the best i could have hoped for. but i'm grateful he's getting the recognition i think he always deserves.

>> he got a father of the year award from the national father's day committee. apparently he heard from hillary before his acceptance speech. >> when the national anthem was being sung, my cell phone started vibrating. and i had a text message from hillary saying congratulations. i think you deserve this. in our family, that's a very big deal. >> now a piece of good news for george w. bush. according to a new gallop poll, more people view him favorably than unfavorably. 46% unfavorable, that's the first time i've seen w with a more positive rating than negative rating since 2005. i think it's from staying out of politics and staying out of sight from people. people forgive you if you don't keep bothering him. he's looking less. up next, how some republicans are adding the fear and pair anyway ya factor to the nsa controversy and loving it. you've watching "hardball" the

place for politics. .

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welcome back to "hardball." listen to how some critics use the latest story about the nsa programs to go after the government making it seem as if it's one entity capable of vast conspiracies. it's a misuse of language that helps build fear and paranoia in this country. yesterday ron paul fed into that paranoia with this speculation. let's listen. >> yeah, i'm worried about somebody in our government might kill him with a cruise missile or a drone missile. we live in a bad time where american citizens don't even have rights. and that they can be killed. but the gentleman is trying to tell the truth about what's going on. >> did you catch that? our government might just kill this ed snowden with a cruise or drone missile. congressman paul is not alone, by the way. here's texas republican ted poe, a birther by the way, on the house floor yesterday railing

against government spooks. let's watch. >> mr. speaker, the american people have lost trust in this government. you think? the government spooks are drunk on power and it's time for congress to intervene to prevent the invasion of privacy by government against the citizens. >> well, "time" magazine's joe cline took on that mind-set and wrote "far too many people get their notions of what our government is all about from hollywood. the paranoid thriller. it's a wonderful form of entertainment but it's a fantasy. the idea that our government is some sort of conspiracy that it's somehow a foreign body intent on robbing us of our freedoms and is dangerous to our democracy. this will be an extremely libertarian country. it's encoded in our dna." joe kline joins us now along with political analyst david corn. thank you. i want your views about this. i do think that some of the people are rattling the cage,

the government when they understand all these agencies are usually at war with each other and congress is elected and the courts appointed and the president's elected and they keep treating our government like it's a regime the a they're talking. your thoughts? >> like it was imposed from mars. but this has always been with us. there's always been a paranoid tinge tong america politics. now we have the megaphones especially on the right and the left too. you have people -- pair anyway ya is what people do instead of thinking. you know? i mean, there's cause for concern with the kind of data mining we do. it needs to be monitored. that's for sure. but it isn't a plot against the people. it just isn't. there's no evidence. >> it really drives me crazy. who are these americans? turn coats, benedict arnolds are in the field against us. what are you supposed to do to them? >> i think there's a legitimate policy. >> don't you shoot back when people are shooting at you. >> constitutional rights when

you can sort of put them aside when somebody is an american overseas. but that doesn't mean that the american government is using drones to go after people in cafes or in hong kong and start a war with china. you had ron paul on. >> does ron paul still have his marbles? i'm serious about this. he was giggling about this. >> let me tell you about his son, rand paul who is still in the senate. he sent out a fund-raising e-mail today which he says you know what's next in the government using gps and cell phones to track you. if you go to a gun show. so that's -- they're really extrapolating. they're using this as a cudgel to make an argument against government because they don't want health care. they don't want wall street reform. this is why they're doing this. >> a few years ago i read about posse comitatus. >> the republican party has been in a place where the people farthest right have the most credibility. that's where the democratic party was in the late '60s and

early '70s. it's a disease they have to cure themselves of. i'll tell you something, the real scandal here is that bradley manning, the guy at the heart of the wikileaks scandal, his disclosures put a lot of lives at risk overseas. i know this for a fact. people who were talking to the united states government in places like china all of a sudden had to hide, leave the country. do whatever to survive. this -- that is a disgrace. they should throw the book at that guy. >> here he is himself, edward snowden surfaced today in an interview with a local english-speaking newspaper in hong kong. he told them he wasn't trying to hide from justice and his mission was to reveal criminality. i have had many opportunities to flee hong kong, but i would rather stay and fight the united states government in the courts. i heard today from a reliable source that the united states government is trying to bully the hong kong government before the local government can learn

of this referred to alleged efforts to hack accounts in hong kong. the united states government will do anything to prevent me from getting this into the public eye. which is why they are pushing so hard for extra dags. they could be pushing hard for extradition because they think he's a criminal. >> yes. he said he exposed criminality. that remains to be seen. the difference between what was going on in the bush years and what's going on in the obama years is that obama put a lot of these programs under judicial review, secret judicial review but congressional oversight more so than in the bush years. that doesn't mean that the stuff is without problems. it may be excessive and going too far. some of the stuff on the internet. interceptions may not have enough safeguards. these are all policy issues that people like ron wyden and mark udall democratic senators for years have been saying we need to have a debate about this. they are right. it's a good thing we're having that debate but it doesn't mean what's happening is necessarily criminal.

it's -- there are a lot more nuances to this that get lost in the hyperbolic rhetoric that you get from rand paul, that you see on twitter. it's interesting and very difficult stuff. >> ari fleisher, this is just republican talk trying to conflate the two. today on capitol hill, the man in charge of the nsa testified for the first time since the stories broke. he made it clear how important the programs are in question by the way. actually important to the country. take a look at how general keith alexander responds to a question from senator patrick leahy. >> is the intelligence community kept track of how many times phone records obtained through section 215 of the patriot act were critical to the discovery of terrorist threats. >> it's dozens of terrorist events that these have helped prevent. >> well, i guess my question is the way this is being played politically. i heard earlier this morning that dianne feinstein was accused of supporting waterboarding.

i found out that wasn't true. a lot of people trying to conflate the two parties. my argument is this is president obama who i pretty much supported. he's never taken us into an unnecessary war. the guy before him did. that's one reason he's president. we don't have unnecessary wars right now. he's not engaged in torturing people. that's a big issue with me. and in terms of other issues of surveillance, it comes down to the question, if we get hit again, no matter which party's in power, they're going to be asked did you do what you could do to protect this country. >> absolutely. but the fact is, the basic political point is this. david was talking about the rand paul fund raising letter. this is a big fund-raiser for the aclu too. >> i understand. >> they are, they're hyping this issue. just as this guy snowden seems to have a kind of exaggerated sense of his own world importance. >> it only takes a few percentage points in the country to raise a lot of money for an organization like the aclu or to become a celebrity in certain parts of the country.

>> i care less about the source of the information than the information itself. snowden can say what he wants. it's important to look at the stuff and the exchange you just showed is really important not because of what keith alexander said, but the way this is supposed to work. if we're going to have secret government, you into ed to have members of congress who are representatives right and left, and every place else being able to know what's going on and be able to affirm to us it's legitimate. if he says dozens, i want leahy to say show me the dozens so he can come out tomorrow or maybe on friday and say listen, i have checked on this. i can tell you this. i'll bring the republicans in. >> that's that we call checks and balances. >> that's what you need. >> that's absolutely right. >> and one problem is over the years, we haven't had that sort of oversight from congress. we haven't had people in the white house who have welcomed that sort of oversight. >> committees on intelligence, do you like dianne feinstein? is she good enough? >> she did a good report on torture 6,000 pages that the cia

is still sitting on. i'd like to see that report. >> thank you joe klein. and david corn. up next, new york mayor mike bloomberg calls out democrats who voted no on gun legislation telling donors to put their donations elsewhere. this is "hardball," the place for politics. [ heart beating, monitor beeping ] woman: what do you mean, homeowners insurance doesn't cover floods? [ heart rate increases ] man: a few inches of water caused all this? [ heart rate increases ] woman #2: but i don't even live near the water. what you don't know about flood insurance may shock you -- including the fact that a preferred risk policy starts as low as $129 a year. for an agent, call the number that appears on your screen. the physical damage was pretty bad. the emotional toll was even worse.

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we're back. michael bloomberg wants to make the democrats who voted no on

gun legislation pay. today he sent a letter to top contributors urging them to cut contributions to senators. those senators include max baucus, heidi highcamp. the letter put out by bloomberg, the next time these four senators want you to support them, tell them you cannot, until they show they will stop bowing to pressure from the gun lobby, can you not support them. was this the best way for the governor to make his point? ed rendell joins us, former governor of pennsylvania. do you believe there should be another vote along the same lines as the gun safety measure which called for wider background checks including those at gun shows? >> sure, i think it's time to revote. i think these four democrats have heard from their

constituents and they're mad. i support the mayor on this 100%. and let me tell you why. why would four very decent democrats vote against reasonable and responsible controls on gun violence? because they believe that second amendment rights voters are single issue voters. the vast majority of us who believe in responsible gun controls in gun violence are not. well, there has to be consequences for their action. and the mayor is delivering a message. the message,we've had it, and we're angry enough that we're going to be single issue voters. we're going to be single issue donators. if you cross us because you can't stand up to the gun lobby. there will be consequences for that. unless we start doing this nothing is going to change. >> let me go to bob herbert. i don't know where you stand, tell me? >> i almost always agree with governor rendell, this time, it's the first time i can think of it, i do not. i think that mayor bloomberg is making a mistake, he has $27 billion, he can do whatever he wants to do, and he usually does. i think this is the sort of

thing that can jeopardize control of the senate by the democrats. and given the things that the mayor professes to believe in he's got a much better chance of seeing those things realized. >> here's the problem -- if you're one of those four people and you -- everybody reads the papers to some extent they know what's going on. this wealthy mayor of new york says get your act together and vote my way. if you do switch your vote 180 from where you voted two months ago, three months ago. then they will know that you bowed to pressure from outside the state. how can that help a person politically? >> it's not pressure from mayor bloomberg. it's pressure from the 94% of north dakota ans who disagree with heidi highcamp's vote, senator pryor's vote. that's where the pressure is coming from. those senators absolutely violated the overwhelming wishes of the people they represent,

because they were afraid of the gun lobby. unless we believe we have to have responsible controls on gun violence. unless we become single issue voters, single issue donators, nothing's going to change. and we'll be hear for the rest of our lives. >> okay. >> you know what you're talking about, governor rendell. thank you so much, you've been fighting those guys for years in pennsylvania. bob herbert, i think you might be right, we're going to wait and see. i'm going to wait on this one, see how it works out. we'll be right back many . look at them kids. [ sigh ]

they have no idea what it was like before u-verse high speed internet. yeah, you couldn't just stream movies to a device like that. one time, i had to wait half a day to watch a movie. you watched movies?! i was lucky if i could watch a show. show?! man, i was happy to see a sneezing panda clip! trevor, have you eaten today? you sound a little grumpy. [ laughter ] [ male announcer ] connect all your wi-fi-enabled devices with u-verse high speed internet. rethink possible.

let me finish tonight with this, i am a believer in both political parties, including a moderate wing. democrats can use people who are more conservative. why? because of arithmetic. it's the only way to build a solid governing majority. without a majority, a party cannot govern in this country. mike bloomberg is out there punishing those democratic senators who failed to support the gun safety position this spring. i don't think it will have it's desired effect. the senators will fight back against the eastern influence. if they reverse their votes, their future opponents will be able to say they've been bought by that billionaire mayor of new york. i don't see this kind of thing turning around the vote. what i do see working is taking the leahy proposal on gun trafficking and strengthening on that. it's far easier to get people to bolster than it is to admit they were wrong. this is politics, think about it, we need to get something

done here, not just talked about, that's hardball for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes and thank you for joining us. tonight on "all in." our first guest is a journalist who should be prosecuted for breaking the nsa surveillance story. that at least the opinion of one prominent u.s. congressman. glenn greenwald of the guardian joins me in a moment. i don't remember agreeing to any of this when i clicked okay to those facebook terms of service. how do the giant tech companies at the heart of the nsa revelations recover from this. we'll discuss that coming up. during an extremely contentious house hearing today. one republican came this cross to going full todd aiken. republican male legislators talking about breaking again.