inadverte inadvertently screaming. the navy grasping this, a small thing, but the best thing in the new technology world today. now, "the last word". tonight, the white house announces that the red line has been crossed in syria and it is time to intervene, and nancy pelosi says that the nsa leaker should be prosecuted. and it is republicans versus republicans. >> we are serious, serious about border security. >> we are going to secure the border. >> there has to be 100% situational awareness of the border. >> the grand old party is hung up on border security. >> the senate is debating its version of the immigration reform package.

>> this will fail, and we do nothing. >> this bill is going to pass the senate. this bill will not pass the house. >> this immigration reform is to pass through the house. my goal is always to bring bills to the floor. >> john boehner likely will have to do it with democratic votes. >> immigration reform, that is a very difficult issue. >> remember this, we're still in the senate. >> leahy from vermont wants gay elements to bring in their friends. >> marco rubio is doing something very interesting. >> i respect people's views on the issue, this is already tough enough as it is. >> he is playing it down both sides against the middle.

>> i have never seen a politician do that. >> i mean, if amnesty goes through, it is over, you have 11 million legalized. >> will never win another national election. thank you, marco rubio. >> he announced a new bill. >> thank you, marco rubio. >> many americans already say it is the goodest news they have heard all year. >> republicans thought they had a way of killing immigration reform today. it came in the form of what they called a poison pill amendment, something that if it gets in the bill it will create enough opposition to the bill to kill the bill. the poison bill was offered by republican senator chuck grassley, but five republicans opposed their party and kept the bill alive by joining with the democrats to kill the grassley poison pill amendment. rush limbaugh broke the news this way. >> the grassley amendment, so the gang of 8 bill simply said we would gain control of the border for six months before any other aspect of the bill, which is exactly what we were told. we have been played on the immigration bill, we were played from the beginning. >> ted cruz insists that the republican-controlled house of

representatives will not pass the senate immigration reform bill, but congresswoman michele bachmann who knows a little bit more about the house of representatives says this. >> don't count on the house stopping the bill, because this is what is going to happen, the senate will pass a very bad bill, the house will pass what sounds like a great bill. it will be nancy pelosi leading all the house democrats to vote for it. and just enough republicans, probably committee chairs and staff committee chairs will vote for the bill. and it could all be done in six

weeks. >> joining me now, joy reid, and columnist for the washington post and senior fellow at the brookings institute. joy reid, i never thought i would say this. but michele bachmann is making an awful lot of sense as a strategist for how you actually get a bill through both chambers and eventually signed by the president. >> yeah, you know what, i think we both need to take our temperature.

>> let's listen to another republican legislative strategist, ann coulter, who actually did work in the senate for a while, she has some experience in this. let's listen to the way she describes how the process may play out legislatively? >> the jack kavorkian, and marco rubio, whom i helped get the primary opponent, the rest of them will help to pass the amnesty bill, this is very important, the house passes nothing but say enforce everify. it goes into the conference between the two bodies and it will come out an amnesty bill. at that point if it is voted on in the house and voted on in the senate. we have amnesty, the country is over, and the only thing left

for people like you and me to do is to punish people who destroyed america. >> e. j., aside from word choice, she is kind of on the same page as michele bachmann, it does sound to me like this is the way it will play out. >> she is right on the narrow point that the house could pass anything to do with immigration. that could go to conference and the conference could produce a big bill based largely on the senate bill. i think the biggest worry for advocates of immigration reform is if house republicans pass a bill substantially to the right of the senate bill, and manage to get that through, which either doesn't have citizenship in it or has like a 200-year path to citizenship, i mean virtually, then you create a problem and they can say well look, we were willing to do immigration reform but not there.

the way the right wing is talking right now i think they're really afraid that momentum is on the side of immigration reform. and we don't talk about it much. and i don't mean to determine it economically, but business has a lot of influence on the republican party. and businesses are fighting very hard for immigration reform. so the court, the constituency of the republican party are split on this. >> and john boehner says it is his number one priority to get this through. and when he was asked you know, you were going to apply the rule where you only bring it to the floor if you have a majority of republicans supporting it, he just threw out a lot of words, joy reid, that is what ann coulter is listening to. michele bachmann has a lot of resources on the establishment side of the bill than a lot of

the people in the media do. when she tells you this is her fear, joy, she is getting it probably from republicans who are telling her this is how we think we'll play it. >> she understands that nancy pelosi will bring 3/4 of the vote, the translation of what he said. that is probably what is going to happen. even if you have a very flawed, and e. j. is right, there will be a very flawed bill in the house, the idea is to get to the conference so you can get something at least half way decent through. >> what do the democrats and the advocates of this reform have to keep an eye on as it moves through the process? and what should the president be issuing as veto lines in this process? >> well, i don't think the president is yet going to issue veto lines. because i think he still wants to stay back as much as he can to get the bill through the senate to keep all of the republicans on.

but i think the biggest deal relates to citizenship. you can't have a path to citizenship that takes forever. you can't have it really cluttered up. there are some other provisions you need to worry about. but i think citizenship is the key. and by the way, when i was listening to the wonderful nonresponse from john boehner, brought to line my favorite joan baez line, keeping things vague. and that is what he did. >> we actually have the video of it. i said we're not going to use it. it is just a waste of time. i would rather hear from joy on -- i do want -- want to listen to ann coulter on something else she said, joy, because this is her description on what happens if you do pass this kind of immigration reform law.

and joy, you're saying they have so no confidence about their ability to be any way helped by this. ann coulter is the real doomsday scenario, and this is how bad it gets as they see the future if the bill passes, let's listen. >> if amnesty goes through, it is over, you have 11 million illegals, who can let in their distant family members, we're talking about 30 million unskilled immigrants, they will not be paying taxes, i don't know what rand paul thinks he is talking about, it will bankrupt the country. they are not natural republicans, this will be a disaster for the republicans, thank you, marco rubio. >> joy, there are so many things, they pay enormous amounts of payroll taxes and get absolutely no social security medicare benefits back from them, because they're not

eligible for them. and the thing about how much she hates marco rubio, i guarantee you we'll be playing that video in four years, when she says how much she likes rubio in four years, just like she did with mitt romney. and the terror in what she is saying, i think is going on with the rush limbaugh audience and the right wing of the republican party. >> that is right, she is speaking for the rush limbaugh cohort, you're not going to have a dominant culture like the '50s, you are maybe going to have people whose first language is not english, maybe they're latino, this bothers the base of the republican party, a pretty big base of the republican party, and that demographic fear is what drives a lot of their policies, they don't want to admit it. a lot of smart people in washington don't talk about it.

they talk about the idea that the people will be republicans, then they have the problem, too. the polls show that hispanics tend to favor democratic policies. and again, they don't have confidence they can change it. it is hard to get people to vote for you when you don't like them. >> and that is one of the debates going on for john boehner and people, there will be more commentaries like that from the anns and the rush limbaughs. they will talk about this endlessly, and they will absolutely be publicly characterizing the republican party as haters, you didn't hear anything in what ann coulter that what she just said, indicating that she has positive feelings about the people. >> i have a friend who supports immigration reform, he said we're never really going to win the hispanic vote if we go to them and say we really want you to vote for us, even though we

really rather you were not here. and that is what this message is. it is not just about immigration reform itself. it is all the affects about how these certain kinds of republicans feel about hispanics. and you know, you want to reassure all of these guys, they said same thing about the irish when they came in. americans said the same thing about italians and eastern european jews, and somehow, all of us became americans. >> yeah, we would love to have your vote now that we have failed to prevent you from voting. joy reid and e. j.dionne, thank you for joining us. >> you're welcome. coming up, the support of collection from data from cell phone calls and other data collection that they do, coming up. the white house announces that it is time to intervene in syria, and on the rewrite, the

report on darrell issa's attempts to hide the results of his committee's investigation of the irs, it was a wonderful new development on the darrell issa embarrassment front today. [ man ] monica had big dreams for her wedding. i want peacocks. peacocks? walking the grounds. in tuscany. [ man ] her parents didn't expect her dreams to be so ambitious. italy? oh, that's not good. [ man ] by exploring their options, they learned that instead of going to italy, they could use a home equity loan to renovate their yard and have a beautiful wedding right here while possibly increasing the value of their home. you and roger could get married in our backyard. it's robert, dad. [ female announcer ] come in to find the right credit options for your needs. because when people talk, great things happen. ♪ ♪

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>> chris christie is about to give new jersey a huge election. ♪ ♪ and he is putting it in the hands of the people. so watch out, because it is coming prematurely. october 16th, to be exact. >> october 16th. >> ♪ chris christie wants to hear what you have to say, so do the people at the nsa ♪

>> did chris christie's movement have anything to do with the music there? any connection to it at all? up next, the liberal argument in favor of the nsa's data collection procedures. [ male announcer ] this is kevin. to prove to you that aleve is the better choice for him, he's agreed to give it up. that's today? [ male announcer ] we'll be with him all day as he goes back to taking tylenol. i was okay, but after lunch my knee started to hurt again. and now i've got to take more pills. ♪ yup. another pill stop. can i get my aleve back yet? ♪ for my pain, i want my aleve.

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>> many liberals are saying that snowden is a hero. but nancy pelosi is not one of them. nor is the liberal senior senator from california who also happens to be the chair of the senate intelligence committee and knows more about what the nsa has been up to than most other senators, but possibly remember not as much as ed snowden knows. senator dianne feinstein has been able to justify nsa data collection procedures by showing senators how useful those tools have been. >> what he wants to give us are the cases where this has stopped the terrorist attack, both here and in other places. and he wants to be exact about the details. so we should have that monday. >> and a piece published in "the week" today, president obama is not violating his liberal principles by defending the nsa, he is exercising them.

joining me now, bill scher, bill, make your case about how this is part of president obama's liberal approach to government. >> well, liberals are not libertarians, they believe in the use of government power to maximize the common good. and that includes public safety. what liberals have long opposed is abuses of political power that infringe on freedom and don't make us safe. japanese camps, witch hunts, strongest critics of this nsa program don't cite any actual abuses of that nature. we have a ten-year record of this now and we haven't seen that kind of terrible violation. what we have is a system designed to pinpoint actual terrorists. and that kind of circumstance is actually protecting our civil liberties and protecting our innocence and serving the common good.

this is a far better record in protecting the innocents than we've seen, president obama is exercising his liberal principles in this regard. >> bill, i think it is an important point that we've not heard this case of abuse. this case of abuse that people suggest is possible with the methods. the example that everybody has been going to in the media is 50 years old. they have to go back to martin luther king jr. and j. edgar hoover. i don't believe that the prison camps that fdr built for the japanese in california are in some way something that we should fear a recurrence of. i think there is such a thing of history that we've left behind. but i am waiting to hear from ed snowden, he uses the word "abuse" as a general term and never comes up with a single case of it. but i did want to play you one

thing he did say which is his imagined version of the worse case scenario here and how this information could be used. let's listen to this. >> they can use the system to go back in time and scrutinize every decision you have ever made, every friend you have ever discussed something with and attack you on that basis to sort of derive suspicion from an innocent life and paint anyone in the context of a wrong-doer. >> and bill that sounds terrible, but that is exactly what you're saying has not yet occurred. we don't have an instance of that yet. >> well, and i would understand if this was ten years ago, and we haven't had a record of this program yet. and you're in the middle of the bush administration and you see things like the prosecutor purge and the plame leak, and wonder where the system is going to lead us. but we have those ten years under bush and obama and that

has not materialized yet. now, maybe that will happen some day. i can't predict the future. and i look at somebody saying i look at the past history and don't trust what will happen in the future. that is not a crazy argument, but neither is it authoritarian or right wing, to say i'm looking at history and see a situation where our civil liberties are in much, much better shape than the mccarthy era or the j. edgar hoover era than we are today. >> and bill, going to what snowden actually said, i think it illustrates a lot of the hyperbole, i think people throwing around the world "treason," have not gone to the constitution, the only word specified in the constitution, what he has done has not led to that. but snowden, he says here that with these phone records which

are records of phone call numbers, not contents of the calls. they can scrutinize every decision you have ever made, every friend you have ever discussed something with. now that is a pure i.t. guy's view of the universe, he does not know that i do not make decisions that are not electronically recorded, either on tv or in the e-mail, and may be them outside the scope of any kind of mechanism whatsoever, as most human beings do. most people, the communication is non-wired communication. most of it is mouth-to-mouth ear communication with no electronics involved. and he seems to think that we live in a world where it is all completely traceable. i mean, he says every decision you have ever made. he has to go to real hyperbolic lengths to create his scary scenario.

>> and a scary scenario would be illegal. if somebody did that, that would be illegal. we have mechanisms to deal with it. if some people say well, you don't know what is going on. there are a lot of things happening in recent years that are supposedly secret. i think in the media age it is hard to keep a lid on things for that long. so if you think this is a violate of the constitution and an inherent violation of the law, you have means to deal with it. you can go to courts or the congress, and there is a different interpretation of what the constitution is. if you believe in it differently, you have the judicial system to deal with it. you don't have to break the law as snowden did, to deal with the issue. >> i don't come down on any discussion with this, i wish it had been discussed when people voted on the patriot act in the

first place and many other elements that go back decades, this has never been fully public before. i think at least he has done a great service in provoking this conversation. but the -- the belief that we are already at this orwellian position in regards to what he calls the architecture of oppression. i'm still waiting for the evidence of that. >> people are arguing, people are satisfied, usually if you get down that slope, they wouldn't tolerate. >> they are pretending there is nothing is on this slope, they are pretending there is a country that -- this is a country you don't have the right to defend yourself, just based on the content -- contents, bill scher, thank you for writing

this, thank you for presenting it. >> thank you. coming up. the major announcement from the white house about helping the rebels in syria. and darrell issa is back tonight. [ kitt ] you know what's impressive?

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tonight, the white house said that an assessment by american intelligence analyst has found that syrian president bashar assad has used chemical

war fare against his people, namely sarin, against the syrians, since the start of the unrest in march, 2011, about 90,000 syrians have died. the white house says it has increased military support to both the political and military arms of the syrian opposition. >> so the assad regime should know that their actions have already led us, both the scale of the opposition, including direct support to the military option on the ground. and we will continue to increase these efforts going forward. >> the white house refused to specify what that support would be. maggie, 150 people, maybe, killed by sarin gas, and that becomes the provocation for what we're seeing here tonight?

that is a little difficult to believe. >> and my colleague wrote a smart piece tonight, saying the president was forced across his own red line. right? i think this is what people in his administration believed was happening for a while. the public pressure got big, we reported that bill clinton had become the loudest voice in the democratic party to side with john mccain, saying there should be more pressure, until we have more specifics, it is very hard to assess what this will mean and what assistance this will translate to. >> and who are these people that we're helping? >> well, they're a mix of people. if you look at the syrian military council, they're mostly defectors from the syrian regime, officers who defected from the syrian regime, that is the military side of it. from the political wing, it is mostly syrian exiles, also

people like the former prime minister and others. but mostly they are academics, and mostly people living in the united states and europe, that is part of why they are so fractured and making it so difficult for them to have a cohesive voice, which led the opposition, which were mostly unarmed syrian protesters. >> so there has been a lot of wonder about what do you get if you help these people and they succeed, then who do they turn out to be politically? who do they turn out to be? what kind of country would be left there? what kind of regime would be left there? >> well, going back to the clinton argument on this, and mostly because i have been looking at the politics this week. this is what bill clinton was saying that the united states needed to do. not just go in, essentially arm

rebels and provide humanitarian for some kind of a short duration. if you end up, his motto was, afghanistan in the '80s. >> there is a great model. >> that is what you don't want to do. >> isn't it that there is no model? because what he is talking about, you have to go in there and stay there which we didn't do in afghanistan. and you have to nation-build in a part of the world where we don't know how to nation build. we know how to nation build in the 50 states. >> i think more accurate through than i can estimate in terms of where the administration is, i think the administration's concern has been exactly that. people can argue that it is poll-driven, people argue that we don't know how to nation build. that is sort of the argument that bill clinton was pushes back again. this is not another iraq or afghanistan in the last 12 years. you have to look at another model and try to go with that, but yes --

>> what is the successful american intervention model and say look, we want to do that? >> that is a really interesting question, i think it is very difficult. i don't think the arab world wants to see the u.s. intervene in syria -- >> people are splitting hairs, going boots on the ground. this is splitting hairs, we're going to go in and help them, presumably with weapons, we're intervening, now what is the successful model anywhere in the american history where we've done this? >> well, when the united states takes the principal side of democracy, it pays dividends, when you look at countries like libya, you now have a government in tripoli that it is favorable to the united states, meaning they want to help the united states on issues of terrorism

and trafficking, it has a government willing to listen and cooperating. >> it is not a government capable of protecting the american ambassador. >> well, that was actually prior to that. this is important, you have a favorable government but now you need to build the capacity of these governments. if you look at a country like egypt -- >> it is literally laughable, how do we build the capacity of another government? >> if you hold the values that you hold in this country dear and near to your heart, democracy, freedom, law, rule of law, and you put those above all other interests, national security, strategic in those countries you will get societies and countries that are willing to build the capacity to ensure that for yourself. now, here is what i mean. you have a country like egypt ruled by the muslim brotherhood. the united states has made very clear to egypt that it takes the security as a red line. you have a country that is ruled by the muslim brotherhood, people in the united states said you could have a muslim

brotherhood in egypt that is concerned about the security of sinai as it is in other regions, it is favorable. the egyptian government is aware of that because of the fact that the united states has been supported and engaged with this government. that is how it pays dividends. it is not a short-term gain, but long-term, and will pay dividends if they commit to it. >> when do we hear from the government -- >> maybe sometime tomorrow. >> thank you very much for joining me tonight. darrell issa is next in the rewrite. he has got himself pasted into a corner that is just kind of a beautiful thing to watch. i am an american success story.

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okay, ready for a little interactive tv, we both have to do a little work, okay, if you did not see this segment on

darrell issa being challenged by congressman elijah cummings, i need you to pause your dvr right now, okay, not right now, i have instructions for you so wait until after the instructions to pause your dvr. right after you pause i need you to go to our website and look at last night's segment in which darrell issa is shown to have reached a conclusion about what happened at the irs before doing any investigation into what actually happened at the irs. you know what? you know, i'm going to actually show it to you, because i know you're too lazy to pause here and do all that website stuff. so here is issa reaching his conclusion before he did any investigating in the case. >> this was the targeting of the president's political enemies effectively, and lies about it during the election year so that it wasn't discovered until afterwards. >> and then of course, as

viewers who saw this segment last night now know, bear with us, issa did not get the supporting evidence in his committee. and so they started to investigate the cincinnati office staff. and the guy in charge of that office during his five-hour interview turned out to be someone who describes himself as a conservative republican. and then issa started to get into a little trouble by trying to selectively quote from the transcripts of those interviews. >> you know that your critics say that you -- republicans, and you in particular, sort of cherry-pick information that go to your foregone conclusion so it worries us to put this out. can you not put out the whole transcript? >> the transcript will be put out. >> there you go, that is his promise to us, to the world, the transcript will be put out. and then he didn't put out any transcripts. enter the brilliant elijah cummings.

>> if the chairman doesn't want to release them like he promised, like he promised, what we will do is do the redaction and then submit them to the public so you can make your own judgments. there is nothing in the transcripts that i'm afraid of. >> that rocked issa's world. and so issa sent a letter to elijah cummings explaining that "your push to release entire transcripts from witness interviews while the investigation remains active was reckless and threatened to undermine the integrity of the committee's investigation." threatened to undermine the integrity of the committee's investigation. okay. so making public what witnesses are telling the committee undermined the integrity of the committee's investigation. so wouldn't that mean that having public hearings would undermine the integrity of the committee's investigation?

>> i'm going to go through a line of questioning primarily with mr. george. how is it that you did not know that things were rotten in your shop? i'm asking you a question, did you report to anyone else up the chain? so no need to report to anyone up in the chain, is that your testimony? >> of course nothing he did there did not undermine the integrity, public hearings do not undermine the committee's integrity. and so undermining witnesses does not undermine the integrity of the investigation. but the chairman announcing his conclusion about the investigation, before the investigation? you know, that kind of sort of does undermine the integrity of the committee's investigation. and elijah cummings has now rope a doped darrell issa into an exquisite trap.

he wrote a letter today and it is just a beautiful thing. just beautiful. june 13th, 2013. the honorable darrell issa, chairman, he has to say honorable. that is you know what they say to each other. it is just perfect. the first paragraph begins as it must with the usual formality that places it in the sequence of their corresponding. and the public's right to know everything about everything. congressman cummings writes this in the first paragraph. i am writing in response to your letter of june 11th, 2013 regarding your recent objection to releasing the full transcripts on the committee staff and employees, okay, has to do that to set up the letter.

then the jewel, specifically, i am writing to seek clarification of your position and to request that you identify the specific text of the transcripts that you believe should be withheld from the american public. darrell issa is now the champion of withholding information from the american public about what happened at the irs, elijah cummings has cornered darrell issa perfectly. now rope a doping darrell issa is not really all that hard, because darrell issa really is kind of a dope. he did this himself. he is the one who said on tv he would release the transcripts at the very same time that he called the white house press secretary a paid liar. two facts about noting, darrell

issa is paid, congressman cummings is paid, too, and this letter which is available on our website proves that congressman elijah cummings is earning every penny of that salary. [ male announcer ] frequent heartburn? the choice is yours. chalky... not chalky. temporary... 24 hour. lots of tablets... one pill. you decide. prevent acid with prevacid 24hr. you decide. capella university understands bright students are getting lost in the shuffle. need. and administration's work gets more complex every year. when you look at these issues, do you see problems or opportunities? with an advanced degree in education from capella university,

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is your cholesterol at goal? ask your doctor about crestor. [ female announcer ] if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. the decisions that need to be made in washington are too great to be determined by an appointee for 18 months. >> chris christie wants to make sure that the next new jersey senator works long and hard. ♪ got to work long and hard. you need to work hard to be a leader.

but not quite as hard as anthony weiner ♪ >> that was governor chris christie's slow jam response to his response to the election. governor chris christie will also bring his message to the clinton global initiative tomorrow. but not the coalition conference this weekend. that conference is dedicated to "building a pro-family conservative majority." today's featured speakers said this. >> today, we have a culture that accepts the wanton disposal of millions of children, and sends aid to countries to persecute christians, i for one will not rest until this ends. >> simply because you disagree with somebody on a marriage, you are called a bigot. >> every single life is worthy of the protection of our laws.

>> joining me now, msnbc's johnathan capehart, johnathan, he is making a lot of enemies if he wants a promotion to the republican party, to say, the white house, for example. >> yes, that is true, but he is doing everything he needs to do, can possibly do, in order to be reelected governor of new jersey this november. remember, he is a red governor in a very blue state. so wrapping president obama in a bear hug, going to chicago to be at the clinton global initiative, these are all things that play well at home in new jersey. it is 2013, the mid-term elections are 2014, 2015, we start to see people running, making motions about running for president. 2016 is when people actually run for president. lawrence, that is three whole years from now. folks in america suffer from a bit of amnesia. so that gives chris christie enough time to try to you know,

erase some memories about what he has done with president obama, president clinton, and what he is needed to do to cozy up to democrats. he has put forth a bipartisan image so that he can get himself reelected this november. >> and johnathan, you make a good point, because republican primary voters are very good at forgetting the past. that is what enabled them to end up with mitt romney as a nominee, having watched him four years earlier rather badly. so your calculation is and the chris christie calculation is what is the score on election night in new jersey in the governor's race, and if he runs up a very big win that becomes his calling card. >> that is exactly it. and yeah, he wants there to be a decision right away for a new senator in new jersey. but by having this senate election a little more than two

weeks before the general election when he is on the ballot, doesn't -- it makes it possible for him to as you said, correctly run up the numbers, run up the margin between himself and barbara bono, if cory booker, the mayor of new york was running for senate, if he were on the ballot, those people coming out to vote for cory booker would possibly vote for him as governor, that is what chris christie does not want to happen. >> now johnathan, i don't know if you have time for it in your social calendar, but if you can get yourself to the faith and freedom hearing, you can get yourself a host of great life advice. >> sure, these are all people -- multiple lies, not at the same time --

>> johnathan capehart, thank you for joining us. >> thank you, lawrence. chris hayes is up next. president obama's red line is crossed in syria. let's play "hardball." breaking news tonight. a major escalation in the u.s. role in the civil war raging in syria. a conflict which has already claimed some 90,000 lives. the white house says it has conclusive evidence that syrian president bashar al assad's regime has used chemical weapons against opposition forces seeking to overthrow the government. the white house says that syria's use of these weapons crosses what president barack obama has called a red line, triggering greater american involvement in the crisis.