years. i'm being sarcastic because it's the only way to describe what i consider the true american reaction to this thing we now do without having a vote on the matter. we don't bother to declare war because it's just a normal thing we do. why declare it when war has become the new damn normal. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "politicsnation" with al sharpton starts right now. thanks, chris, and thanks to you for tuning in. tonight's congressman issa exposed. he is the chairman of the house oversight committee. and i pointed out many a times he has been on a crusade against the obama administration. he called the president corrupt. he pushed for the attorney general eric holder to be held in contempt for the first time in the nation's history. and he has tried and failed again and again to put the stink of scandal on the obama administration. but today he was caught

red-handed, caught with his hand in the cookie jar. you might just say he was caught with bluebird pie all over his face. for weeks congressman issa has tried to link the white house to the disturbing charges that the irs intentionally targeted tea party groups looking for tax break. he released selective portions of interviews make his case and to do what he wanted to do in the public arena. he went all over tv saying things like this -- >> this was the targeting of the president's political enemies effectively and lies about it during the election year so that it wasn't discovered until afterwards. >> the administration is still -- their paid liar, their spokesperson, picture behind. he is still making up things about what happens and calling this local rogue. my gut tells me too that too many people knew that this wrongdoing was going on before

the election, and at least by some sort of convenient, benign neglect, allowed it to go on through the election. >> targeting enemies, paid liar. listen to these inflammatory accusations. but today we're getting the real story. and it reveals what a phony congressman issa is and what his phony charges are all about. late this afternoon, democratic congressman elijah cummings released the full transcript of an interview with an irs official who reviewed many of those tea party applications. when the official was asked what's your party affiliation, he replied "i am a conservative republican." everyone look at that. a quote, "conservative republican." it can't be more clear. he is no obama plant. and when the official was asked, quote, do you have any reason to

believe that anyone in the white house was involved in the decision to screen tea party cases, he answered "i have no reason to believe that." no reason to believe that. it's been 12 days since this interview. but no apology, no correction. but it explains why he is not releasing the entire transcripts of all the interviews his committee has done, even though he promised to do that just a few weeks ago. >> you know that your critics is a that republicans and you in particular sort of cherry pick information that go to your forgone conclusion. and so it worries us to kind of put this kind of stuff out. can now not put the whole transcript out? >> the whole transcript will be put out. >> the whole transcript will be put out. except if it shows there is no white house scandal after all. just a figment of darrell issa's active and unfair imagination.

joining me now, congresswoman jackie spear, democrat from california, and a member of the oversight committee, and joy reid, managing editor of thegrio.com. thank you both for being here. >> great to be here. >> congresswoman, let me go to you first. what is your response to darrell issa shamelessly accusing the white house while knowing the truth? i mean how do you respond to this? >> there is absolutely no evidence to support his irrational statements on the white house having any knowledge about the irs using words to focus in on tea party organizations. what has come forward, and i want to applaud the ranking member of the committee for making available to all americans now the seminole interview that has taken place by the bipartisan membership of

the committee staff where the screening manager at the cincinnati office actually speaks to the genesis of the actual targeting that went on. it did not emanate anywhere, except from cincinnati. negative, congresswoman, you are hitting a point that really is outrageous to me. joy, when you look -- let's look at another exchange from the transcript that congressman cummings, who the congresswoman refers to as the ranking member. it says the irs official was asked, quote, was it your impression that an agent flagged the case, the tea party case for you on february 25th, 2010 because of his disagreement with their political view on the group? he replied, quote, we never, never discussed any political, you know, personal aspirations whatsoever. so then what has issa and them been talking about, joy reid?

>> the fact as we know them are that darrell issa perpetrated a hoax. now whether it was deliberate hoax, or whether it was because he simply wanted to believe there was some political target in the tea party and back filled and tried to find evidence after he had already put out his theory, remains to be seen. but what we do know is darrell issa was in possession of the exact same transcripts that congressman elijah cummings. he knew at a tern certain point that the facts and the evidence did not back up his theory. at no time did darrell issa say you know what? maybe i had it wrong. this is the evidence in the transcript that we had that may mean that my theory was wrong. no, instead he continued to perpetrator the hoax and refused to release the transcripts that were evidence that what he was saying was false. i think somebody might need to investigate darryl issa. >> and congresswoman, the investigation, many people, including me are very concern candidate about the irs being used as a political weapon against anybody.

but is this a fair investigation? and wouldn't you now have a congressman issa being really exposed, cherry picking what parts of a transcript he is going to release? what happens to the integrity of this investigation that is very important? >> first of all, it's important to point out that the screening manager has self identified himself as a conservative republican. >> that's correct. >> secondly, secondly, elijah cummings as the ranking member has had to put forward this particular interview because mr. issa was, as you pointed out, cherry picking only the interviews that would support his particular position. and thirdly, we're going to keep darrell issa honest in this process. that is why there is a republican and democratic staff. they're supposed to work

together. this should be a bipartisan effort. we want to make sure that no one is targeted by the irs for reasons unrelated to what we should be focused on. now, if we want to be really clear about this, the fact that an organization is not exclusively engaged in a social welfare activity is something that we still have to get focused on, because that was the law. and then the irs came up with regulations that then changed it primarily. and that is why this whole issue is as complex as it is. >> i agree with that. you know, joy, one of the things that we should not tolerate as americans is any group, right wing, left wing, it doesn't matter, being targeted and harassed based on their politics. but we also shouldn't tolerate people misusing and mishandling and trying to connect it for political reasons to the white

house and this isn't the first time that darrell issa, congressman issa has gone after this white house and gone after the obama administration. let me show you what he did in terms of his attacks on the administration, and the attorney general of the united states, mr. holder, the same congressman issa. >> perjury is a criminal charge that has to be proven. but certainly it's hard to have confidence in what this attorney general says or his people say when so often it turns out not to be true. >> he accused the attorney general of not being truthful and raises the term "perjury." now he cherry picks and selectively gives part of a testimony that congressman cummings has given all of us now, which clearly doesn't say any of what was inferred or implied by what he did. this is unspeakable behavior for chairman. >> not even inferred or implied. darrell issa said definitively this emanated from the white house and we're going to prove it. he already had reached the

conclusion. if you think about it, this is a very serious charge. we have had incidents of presidents of the united states using the irs to go after their enemies. you do not want to have the white house directing the irs to target anyone that is the charge darrell issa made with no supporting evidence. as the testimony came in, it proved the opposite. it proved this did emanate from within the irs and from a republican, a republican who was trying to deal with this influx. >> parts of others. >> exactly. >> he would not release this testimony. >> to prove something really scurrilous if it had been true. and he had all of the media running around with this narrative that the white house directed the political targeting of groups when he knew at a certain point darrell issa was in those interviews, knew that the information was not true, continued to make this case. so i think that's very egregious. and it does show that darrell issa is not being an independent actor here trying to hold the white house accountable. he is on a witch-hunt. he wants to find evidence of something that the white house

or the attorney general has done wrong. he is playing pure politics. and i know he is a politician. but he is also on a very important committee that is supposed to do oversight. not witch-hunts, oversight. >> congresswoman speier, how can you and others protect the integrity of this investigation? >> well, we do it every single day on the oversight and government reform committee. we constantly pushing back at what are rigged hearings with individuals with a particular point of view. we are oftentimes not made aware of the hearing until the last minute and are given one witness to be able to offer a counter point of view. so it is tough duty right now. and i would also agree that darrell issa is not -- he has a point of view that he is going to ram down our throats, the american people. and we've got to resist that. he is good at theater. he's very good at creating theater. he is also very good at creating falsehoods.

>> well, i'm going to have to leave it there. congresswoman jackie speier, doing very important work for the american people. thank you for being with us. and joy reid, thank you too for your time. president obama traveling overseas, but going after republican critics at home. just wait until you hear what he has to say about dick cheney. and we are awaiting the house vote restricting abortion. and i love hearing from you. send me your e-mails. "reply al" is coming up. stay with us. all business purchases.

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we are awaiting the vote any minute now in the house where republicans are set to vote on the most restrictive anti-abortion bill in the last decade. the bill would ban abortions nationwide at 20 weeks. the party has no reason to pursue this legislation. it's unconstitutional. it has no chance of being signed into law, and it further alienates women. but they're doing it anyway. and they're using a despicable rationale to go after women's rights. >> after this trial and some of

the horrific acts that were going on, a vast majority of the american people believe in the substance of this bill. >> what we are seeking to do is fight the kermit gosnells. >> there are kermit gosnells, madam speaker, all over america, today inflicting not only violence, cruelty and death on very young children, but excruciating pain as well. >> they're citing the case of kermit gosnell. he is a late-term abortion doctor convicted last month of horrific crimes. he preyed on desperate, poor women. in at least three cases, he delivered babies alive in his clinic and then murdered them. the gop abortion ban applied only to d.c. before the gosnell case. but after it, the party made this a nationwide ban. yes, gosnell's actions were deplorable. but his case is no reason to wage a war on women's rights.

the very legislation they're pursuing would create more gosnells. it would force more women to seek abortions from horrific men like that doctor. it's not a solution. it's a disgrace. joining me now is stephanie svioc. stephanie, thank you for coming on the show tonight. >> thank you for having me. >> let me ask you, stephanie, are they using this horrific crime to make their argument and go after women's rights in your judgment? >> well, it sure seems to be the case. and it is really, really unfortunate. such an important issue to have it framed in such a way. let's step back here. this is a republican party as you said in the intro, reverend, that should have learned some lessons after the 2012 election. women voters turned against them. they do not want to see the republican party roll the clock back on riots and opportunities

for women and families in this country. and yet they redouble their efforts, and they move this to a national bill, one that is unconstitutional and will not pass. i don't understand what polling they are looking at. but the american women are not going stand for this. >> now, the new sponsor of the bill is congresswoman marsha blackburn. she defended the bill today. listen to. this. >> my hope is that we can show tremendous compassion to anyone who has been a victim of rape, a victim of incest, and that we can rid our society of these perpetrators who carry out these crimes, many times repeatedly on their victims. >> congresswoman, how do you fight rapist with an abortion bill? >> what we are seeking to do is fight the kermit gosnells and the doug carpins, and to end this practice of late-term abortion which is killing these babies, which is harming women.

>> they run right to the kermit gosnell case. but, again, how does one have anything to do with the other when it's trying to connect rape with abortions and the impact it has on women's right to choose? >> well, it is another example, and it is clear when you have a republican party in the house of representatives led by men. and granted we have a woman now leading on this bill. and the republican party keeps making the same mistake. they think if they change the messenger, that we won't notice the policy behind it. well, it doesn't matter who you put in front of the camera. until the republican party changes their policy and their platform, american women are not going to stand with them. it continues to be a mistake. i got to say, as i listen to all of this, it's just really reinforces the work we do at emily's list and so many democrats across the country. we need more progressive democratic women's voices sitting in these house hearing,

on the house floor. and where we really need them, reverend, is in the state legislature where unfortunately some of these laws are actually passing. and women are losing their rights. >> well, you know, and it's interesting. you raise that they put congresswoman blackburn out. she replaced trent franks after his infamous bill saying what he said about rape. and she herself opposes equal pay laws and wants to end funding for planned parenthood. but what is as interesting to me, republicans seem to think that gun rights are more important than women's rights. 26 states require waiting periods before women get an abortion. just 11 states require waiting periods to get a firearm. this is amazing. >> it is unbelievable. and, again, the republican party continues to take on issues that

alienate women further and further. you have the governor of mississippi, you know, suggesting that it's because women work that we have problems in this country. i mean, it's really incredible the direction that the republican party has gone. and i know, i know, and i've seen it in the polling, there are moderate republicans out there, particularly republican women. and we're calling on all of them to come and help us elect some more democratic women to office. our voices need to be there, but they need to be voices of experience and voices who understand what women and families are facing every single day. >> stephanie schriock. thank you for your time this evening. and we are watching the vote as it comes in. and we will keep you abreast of it. but clearly, the republicans will win this vote, but it will not pass the democratic senate. it will prove to be legislatively a complete waste of time. but it certainly sends a message to women about their rights as far as the leadership of this

party is concerned. coming up, president obama's message to dick cheney. and some on the right are attacking president obama's upcoming africa trip. we're going back to the archives to get 'em tonight. ♪ [ male announcer ] moving object detection.

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the summer is here. it's time to hit the beach, to barbecue. and for the right wing, time to attack president obama's summit travels. >> there is an upcoming trip to africa later this month that is expected to cost 60 to $100 million for the taxpayers. but the president couldn't keep the white house open. you see a correlation there? >> oh, yeah, major correlation. and he wasn't finished. >> the president plays golf. he has concerts one after another. extravagant vacation. martha's vineyard and his mansion that he'll spend the summer. do we really need to spend that kind of money, 60 to $100 million on africa? >> that's right. who would do something like that? i mean, come on. what kind of president goes to africa? oh, how about this one. there he is. president george w. bush. and where is he?

in africa. he's visiting the locals, making some new friends, checking out tribal dances. what a fun trip for president bush. i think it's where he learned these great dance moves. he brought that boogie back to the white house. in fact, president obama traveled to africa with his family in both 2003 and 2008. that first trip even included a safari, not to mention this winner, a close-up with an elephant. folks, insert your own joke here. did hannity and the right think we take a summer break from calling out this hypocrisy? nice try. but pack your bags. you're heading back to reality, because we got you. she knows you like no one else.

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but it's for them, so i've found a way. who matters most to you says the most about you. at massmutual we're owned by our policyowners, and they matter most to us. ready to plan for your future? we'll help you get there. the president continues his overseas trip today. this afternoon he landed in berlin for a 24-hour visit and

talks with german chancellor. and a speak at the city's iconic brandenburg gate. while he is away, the republican scandal machine is in overdrive here at home. but the president is fighting back. in a new interview, he goes right after his critics on the nsa controversy. >> what i can say unequivocally is that if you are a u.s. person, the nsa cannot listen to your telephone calls. and the nsa cannot target your e-mails. >> have not? >> and have not. they cannot and have not by law and by rule. >> so when i hear you saying i have no problem with what the nsa has been doing. >> well, let me finish, because edon't. so what happens then is that the fbi if in fact it now wants to get content, if in fact it wants

to start tapping that phone, it's got to go to the fisa court with probable cause and ask for a warrant. folks don't go with a query unless they've got a pretty good suspicion. >> should this be transparent in some way? >> it is transparent. that's why we set up the fisa court. >> now, i've never been for the patriot act. i do trust president obama, but who knows who comes in after him. but these are very tough and very complex issues. and there should be a debate. what is not up for debate is the right looking to gin up scandal where they are all for surveillance under one president, but hate it under another president. >> i think it's fair to say that, you know, there are going to be folks on the left. and what amuses me is now folks on the right who were fine when there was a republican president, but now obama is coming in with black helicopters. >> but make no mistake, he's not like that other guy.

>> some people say, well, obama was this raving liberal before. now he is dick cheney. dick cheney sometimes says yeah, you know, he took it all lock, stock and barrel. my concern has always been not that we shouldn't do intelligence gathering to prevent terrorism, but rather, are we setting up a systems of checks and balances. >> folks, this is the unreality of this. whether you like it or not, it shows how not serious they really are. joining me now are maria teresa kumar and jonathan capehart. thank you both for being here tonight. >> thanks, rev. >> hello, reverend. >> jonathan, a big headline coming out of that interview is that president obama saying he is no dick cheney. what is your response? >> well, he is no dick cheney. remember, when they started these programs, the bush administration was tapping into phones, doing all these things without -- without any sort of authority.

without warrants and things. and when the president came in, he decided, he said in the interview, i can't remember if you played it in the clip, that he brought some balance there. the one issue that i would take with the president there is that he says, you know, this is all public. this goes to a court. this goes to the fisa court. >> right. >> the problem is the fisa court is secret. so an so on the one hand there are the secretary of defense and all the other people who want these things done, people outside of them who know about these things. but i or you or american citizen can't just go knock on the fisa court door and say hey, let's see these orders, because the court is secret and where they are is secret. >> now maria, they love their surveillance, i'm talking about the ring wing and the republicans. they loved it under bush/cheney. but now it's a crisis. how can anyone buy this argument? >> well, i think that jonathan said is right. we basically inherited the pate troc act, but we also inherited a new america when september 11th happened.

and what the president is doing is recognizing that we do need to create a system of checks and balances, and it's not going to be pretty. but what it does do is it opens up this important conversation for every american to be having this conversation with their government and also with their kids and their family of how much data are we sharing, not only with the government, but every time you post something on facebook, that becomes a collective of a big firm. so it's important for us to have these conversations. it's important for us to be clear that we are in a different world. and how are we creating those checks and balances? and i have to say the fact that president obama has always been touted as someone who is pragmatic president, this is the type of person that we need setting those types of rules. that you know they're going to be fair. they're going to be as transparent as possible. do they have to go a little further? of course. but, again, we've never been in this position before in our history. >> now jonathan, what bothers me, and again, i've been against the patriot act under any president, including this one. but right wingers seem to be showing real hypocrisy here.

let me go to my friend mr. hannity. just listen to him and patriarch author, jim sensenbrenner. let me show you an exchange with them. >> there is a liberal website out there. and they say that i have change mid opinion. now, i supported the patriot act. i support datamining. i support surveillance, and i support fisa courts. but i don't support what the administration did. am i consistent with what the law is? >> you absolutely are consistent. and i agree with every one of the points that you have made, sean. >> now, this is jim sensenbrenner, one of the authors of the patriot act. if he is being consistent, what is the objection? what are they talking about, or is this just some politics? >> it's politics. sean hannity is not being consistent here. he is being hypocritical.

you know, what we know that is happening that has caused this scandal, this controversy, it's nothing new in the sense that usa today wrote about the telephone stuff back in 2005-2006. the datamining, wired magazine just this past march did a big story about the utah nsa datamining complex that's been constructed. it's not that the american people or people did not know about this. it's just that people are now focused on it. and it sparked as maria teresa kumar was saying before, an interesting and needed conversation in this country about, okay, now that we all are aware that this is happening, what are the boundaries, what are the limits, and what should government should and shouldn't do with this information. >> definitely where we need to go. but let me go back to you, maria teresa. when you look at the hypocrisy, this is what is alarming to me. the hypocrisy on the right on this issue of surveillance. look at this guy, jim

sensenbrenner. look at his record. he authored the patriot act. he dismissed critics who warned of government abuse of patriot act in 2005 and '06. now he says he is troubled by fbi's interpretation of the patriot act. but he skipped classified briefs on nsa programs over the last three years that would have showed him what they were doing. i mean, this is the height of hypocrisy here. >> well, i mean, when they actually had these nsa hearings over -- i want to say it's close to 25% of the senate actually skipped out the go home early. so when the republicans are saying that this is something, they don't sit in their seat to actually listen to these intelligence gatherings and disclose what is happening with the nsa, it really makes me want to scratch my head a little bit. but what it's really doing is a bit of smoke and mirrors. they're crying foul, saying that this is something that the obama administration is abusing people's rights. but at the same time, they're

not really doing the business of the nation. what they should be doing is tackling the big issues, whether it's stopping the sequester, whether it's passing immigration, whether it's doing gun control. but instead they're trying to gin up small scandals to really distract the american people of the real work that is at hand. >> all right. well, we're going to have to leave it there. maria teresa kumar and jonathan capehart, thank you for your time tonight. >> thank you so much, reverend. ahead, a major milestone in the george zimmerman trial today. that's next. [ male announcer ] erica had a rough day. there was this and this. she got a parking ticket... ♪ and she forgot to pay her credit card bill on time. good thing she's got the citi simplicity card.

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a dramatic day in the george zimmerman trial. what experts are saying about that crucial nine one within tape. that's next.

. important news today in the george zimmerman murder trial. 40 potential jurors have now been selected for further questioning. that means the next phase in the all important work of picking a jury will begin tomorrow from that group of 40, six jurors will be chosen to determine the outcome of the case. he faces 25 years to life in prison for shooting trayvon martin. mr. zimmerman has pleaded not guilty, and claims he shot trayvon martin in self-defense. perhaps the biggest court fight thus far has been over a 911

call made the night trayvon martin was killed. loud screaming can be heard, and the call may be the key to determining the truth of mr. zimmerman's claim of self-defense. >> i think they're yelling help, but i don't know. just send someone quick, please. >> does he look hurt to you? >> i can't see him. i don't want to go out there. i don't know what is going on. they're sending. >> so you think he is yelling help? >> yes. >> all right, what is your -- >> there's gunshots. >> the defense is trying to keep the jury from hearing the testimony of the state's voice expert, who wrote this in his report. "trayvon martin's voice is, quote, younger and he generates much of what some observers have called screams. other experts have simply said the person screaming is not mr. zimmerman.

the defense claims that it is not possible to say who was screaming on that call. joining me now is former criminal prosecutor faith jenkins, and nbc news legal analyst lisa bloom. thank you both for being here tonight. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> faith, the 911 tape is a critical piece of evidence in the trial. the audio hearing resumes tomorrow, and it's all about the analysis of whose voice is screaming. what do you expect the judge to rule? >> i still think the judge is going to rule to allow this expert testimony in and let the jury decide how much weight they're going to give to the experts' testimony. let me be clear about something. i think if the fbi had been able to analyze this tape and come to a clear conclusion about who was screaming, i think this case would be over. that's how clear and important it is. because the person who is screaming, the inference is that person is the one who was being attacked. >> now lisa, how important to the defense using self-defense

as their claim is this tape? >> it's extremely important because george zimmerman is wedded to the story that he gave to police. he can't change that story now. his story is that trayvon martin was threatening his life. that's why he took the gun and shot once and killed trayvon martin. well, if this is trayvon martin on the tape screaming, begging for his life, it completely undercuts that story. >> all right. they're going to hear the tape. the question is whether we're going the hear the experts, faith. how do you explain that you're screaming if you're mr. zimmerman when you are the one with the gun, and all of the sudden there was no sound after we heard the gun go off? >> that will be interesting, because i think george zimmerman has to take the witness stand in this case. he is going to have to answer those tough questions, because he is going to stay that was me screaming on the tape. then he is going to have to answer why, if he is the person in the position of power, you're the one with the gun, that you are screaming. >> and all of the sudden went silent after the blast.

you know, yesterday, lisa, the judge heard from the defense's audio expert. listen to what he said. this is james whalen. >> when you crank up the volume on something that contains fundamentally no content, it's like a rorschach test. you start reading into any of this what your neural pathways are doing, not which occurred in the external stimuli you're trying to pay attention to. didn't understand the methodology. i was baffled. >> he is baffled. he doesn't understand the methodology. but is that enough to get an analysis thrown out? i mean he is not questioning what is said on the tape. he is talking about methodology? >> well, he is, reverend al, because in any court when scientific or technical evidence is introduced in, it has to be generally accepted in the scientific community. i think what he is saying there is just not enough of this recording to do the proper

scientific sampling to be able to make a determination. >> you know, is this technology acceptable, faith? because we had on this show last april two forensic experts. and this is their analysis of the phone call. let me play you what they said. >> tom, tell us. the voice we hear yelling for help on that tape, who is yelling help, help, help? >> it's my opinion that it's not mr. zimmerman. >> and what was your conclusion on who was the one on the tape yelling help? >> here's my opinion, reverend. it's not george zimmerman because the voice is completely different. >> now the first expert, tom owen, faith will, be testifying at tomorrow's hearing. how vital is his testimony in this case in your opinion? >> it's extremely vital. but the dispute here is over the size of the sample. there are only three seconds of

unencumbered screams, they're saying, and these experts took the three seconds and looped them to come up with a sample to test. that's the dispute. the fbi is saying three seconds isn't enough. they're saying we looped it and we were able to test it. so we'll see how the judge rules. i still think she allows it in. it's going to be up to the jury to determine how much weight they're going to give to the testimony. >> lisa, take news the courtroom. if you're prosecuting this case, you're prosecuting george zimmerman, how would you handle this part of the case? >> i think it's tough. well, i would certainly say that this is trayvon martin. and i want to put on this expert witness as the prosecution wants to do, or at least eliminate george zimmerman as the person who is screaming. the problem is that i don't know if we have a voice sample of trayvon martin to compare it to. we certainly have voice samples from george zimmerman because he called the police earlier that day. >> right. >> so we have that. so they can exclude george zimmerman. but i don't know if they have a good voice sample of trayvon martin to compare it. to. >> but faith, if it's not george zimmerman, there is only two people there, he and trayvon martin. wouldn't that lead to trayvon

martin? and if they throw it out, two questions. wouldn't it lead to martin? and if they happen to throw it out, you were a federal prosecutor. how would you proceed. >> process of elimination. obviously if he is not george zimmerman, the only person there, trayvon martin. and next you proceed by presenting this evidence. and also, i think trayvon martin's mother may take the witness stand and say i listened to this tape. this sounds just like my son. how powerful and emotional would that testimony be? >> right. because keep in mind even if the experts can't testify, the jurors may still hear this and make their own determination. >> right. >> i think that it all leads back to, again, faith, another question. do you think zimmerman should take the stand? if you were handling his case, would you put him on the stand? >> i think he has to take the witness stand. i don't see another way around it after the state puts on their evidence, he has to take the witness stand and explain his actions. he is going to be asked some tough questions. why did you think trayvon martin was suspicious? what led you to make that

assumption that night? why did you think he was up to no good? why did you call him an a-hole on this 911 tape when you don't know him? but he has to take the witness stand. it's going to be awkward. it's going to be tough, but i think he has to testify. >> lisa, how does he establish self-defense when he was the only one there other than martin? how does he establish self-defense if he does not take the stand? >> let me give you another point of view. i don't know if he needs to take the stand. he submitted to hours of police interrogation, and that's on a videotape. that may come in. his attorney may look at that and say he did a good job. he's credible. that's his story. why should i put him on and subject him to cross-examination. >> he has given so many interviews, i don't think his attorney can keep him off the witness stand in the trial. >> we're getting closer. we're down to next phase to actually get the members of the jury. we're going to stay on this case. faith jenkins and lisa bloom,

great conversation. thank you for your time tonight. and full disclosure. in civil court, george zimmerman has sued nbcuniversal for defamation and the company has strongly denied hi allegations. coming up, reply al is next. my mantra? always go the extra mile. to treat my low testosterone, i did my research. my doctor and i went with axiron, the only underarm low t treatment. axiron can restore t levels to normal

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and now i've got to take more pills. ♪ yup. another pill stop. can i get my aleve back yet? ♪ for my pain, i want my aleve. ♪ [ male announcer ] look for the easy-open red arthritis cap. now it's time for reply al. great to hear from so many of you. please keep them coming. steve writes why do so many african-americans refuse to acknowledge the similarity between the civil rights struggle and the lgbt struggle when it's so apparent that they are one and the same, a grand struggle for human rights? well, i believe that there is no way to fight for some human rights with the other. every struggle has its own distinct way of engagement, and we have all gone through certain

levels and certain oppression and certain bias or discrimination. so even though some have suffered differently or more than others, it's one fight against all discrimination. and i think that we cannot distinguish between the two. one of the worst things in the world is to say did you suffer as much as i did, do you hurt as much as i do. all of us need to not suffer. all of us need not to have pain. and you cannot have bragging rights on discrimination. we must have the bragging rights of saying we all must stand together against all bias, all wrong. and even if i may be different for religious reasons with others, i must defend their right to make their choice. there is nothing that i see that trains me to have the right to impose my faith and my belief on others. and in fact, i must fight for their right so that someone will protect and respect mine right.

sheri writes, dear reverend al, i would like to know how much money and time that i and other taxpayers have spent on the attempted repeal of the aca after 37 times. if we are going to pay them, then they should be using their money and our money on issues that can be worked upon instead of this constant and only symbolic repeal process. i couldn't agree more, sheri. taxpayers should know about this. the gop has spent over 80 hours, two full workweeks trying to repeal the health care care law. and it cost american taxpayers $55 million. and they know they will not be able to pass it through the senate. they know the president won't sign it. this is just to continue this kind of motion and symbolic gesture, playing to the base and

harassing the president that money could be used to help do concrete things for vulnerable americans. we want to answer your questions. so e-mail me ask about rev@msnbc.com. remember, friend or foe, i want to know. it's important to me. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. you mean there's no scandal? let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews up in new york. let me start tonight with this. once there was a whiff of scandal, you know that whiff of scandal over at the irs. well, now we learn there is not even that whiff. no, not even a whiff. no. just one desperate california congressman whose bluff has been called. and with us tonight, the man who called the bluff, u.s. congressman elijah cummings, ranking democrat on the house oversight committee.