you react with total class and win the day and everyone's respect. watch how he reacted. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from american somolia mr. fing -- >> thank you, mr. speaker. it is american samoa. >> the best natured man in congress is the guy who ignores who he has been called mr mr. falimabinga. with poise. he is the best natured man in congress and that act of restraint on your >> bad science, check, anti-women, check, no chance of ever being taken up by the senate? check. your tax dollars at work in john boehner's house of representatives.

>> the abortion debate is hitting a fever pitch on the hill. >> the house is expected to vote tonight. >> for what is being called the most restrictive abortion bill. >> congressman, the sponsor, will not be leading the debate today. representative frank has apologized. >> the co-sponsor from tennessee will be in charge. >> it deals specifically with these late-term abortions, the 1.5% of abortions that take place after 20 weeks. >> what is at stake for the republicans? >> picking a fight, even though they know they won't win. >> this is what the base really wants. >> there is a base they have to pander to. >> is this pandering? >> absolutely not. >> it is a very calculated, cynical and insidious thing that the republicans have done. >> it is really out of touch. not just to women. >> this is where science is on our side.

>> public opinion is on our side. >> roe v. wade is supported by 70% of americans. >> they hope to create their own reality and own set of science. >> unfortunately, they can't stop talking about rape. >> if it is a legitimate rape. >> the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down. >> but congresswoman -- >> good evening, i'm alex wagner, in for lawrence. today, the republican-controlled house passed one of the most restrictive abortion bills in ten years, with a vote of 228 to 196, the house approved the pain-capable unborn child protection act which would ban most abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy. current law under roe v. wade protects a woman's right to an abortion, up until the fetus is

viable outside the womb, which is usually around 26 weeks, six democrats voted for the bill. >> so often we come to the floor and we will hear members say we are doing this for the children. or that for the children. and i have to tell you this is one of those days that we truly can stand and say yes, indeed. we are taking an action that will enable so many children to enjoy that guarantee of life. >> do you ever wonder when they tune in to see the debate on the bills that are going no place, do they think, well, here it is? just another day in the life of the majority-controlled, republican-controlled congress. instead, we are debating legislation that endangers

women's health and that disrespects the health of women and their doctors on how to make judgments on women's health. >> the bill was sponsored by republican trent frank and approved by an all-male subcommittee panel, last week they approved the bill for a full-house vote. it was at that hearing that trent frank said this. >> before when my friends on the left side of the aisle here tried to make rape and incest the subject, because you know, the -- incidents of rape and -- resulting in pregnancy are very low. >> two days later the bill was amended to include exclusions for rape and incest as long as the cases are reported to law enforcement before an abortion is sought. perhaps comprehending the messaging problem, and the all-male committee on the reproductive rights, the republican party enlisted

congresswoman marsha blackburn to take the mike from frank. >> ma'am speaker, is it not customary for somebody on the jurisdiction to manage time on the floor? or is it because the republicans have no women on the house judiciary committee that the gentlewoman has time on the floor? >> the republicans contend it will protect women from doctors like gosnell, who specifically performed late-term abortions. >> we are trying to prevent the gosnells, to end the practice of late-term abortions, killing these babies, harming women, public opinion is on our side. >> congresswoman -- >> but, as usual, science is not on the side of the grand ole party. the american college of gynecologists, and the doctors

who are familiar with the reproductive process, and ten other groups have written a letter opposing the bill. and a scientific review of fetal pain, one published in the journal of medical, announces that pain is unlikely before the third trimester, joining me now, cecile richards, and also, the associate medical director of planning family associations in chicago. thank you for joining us. cecile, i would like to go to you first here, there is something like comedy, but something dangerous as well. this is part of a systemic attempt to roll back women's reproductive rights and also attack roe v. wade, is it not? >> absolutely, and as you said, the most extreme bill passed in

more than ten years. it is so ironic to hear congresswoman blackburn, who is supposed to be supporting women, she has done more against women's rights and health care, not only did she push against the bill tonight, she voted against the violence against women act, the sponsor of the bill that would end women to go to planned parenthood for basic cancer screening and birth control, and now wants to push through a bill that makes sure insurance companies would deny women access to health care. >> it could cut down on unwanted pregnancy. dr. parker, as a medical professional, what are the implications of the bill? it doesn't look like it will actually go anywhere, but practically speaking, what does it do to women seeking an abortion or to the matter. >> this bill, with politics, trumping medical care, as to a

physician, my women are often in difficult circumstances, it would interfere with the doctor/patient situation, and it is a problem on multiple levels. >> problematic, cecile, you and i are speaking earlier today. there is trouble in texas, if you are a woman but a low income woman and you need health care and access to reproductive health services. if passed, a bill -- the texas state legislature would require abortion facilities to have the same standards as ambulatory surgical systems, which would close all but five. >> actually, it is not just texas, we see in ohio they are

looking at a budget that would essentially end women's ability to go to planned parenthood for even basic health care, and prevent rape crisis centers for referring women if they want to potentially terminate a pregnancy. we're seeing the bills passed all over the country. and so again's it is much more than what just passed congress. and in fact i mentioned earlier today, one of the most extreme bills in kansas, which literally allows doctors, going into effect in two weeks, allows doctors to lie to patients about results, if they believe it would impact a woman's decision about her pregnancy. as dr. parker says this is literally politicians getting between women and doctors about making very private, personal medical decisions. >> the very dictionary definition of government overreach.

dr. parker, i don't think -- there is a lot of general theories about women who seek abortions. but there is very little actual discussion about the realities of that process and the economic implications of it. and there was a great "new york times" magazine subject that highlighted the research of diana green foster who found that women who were denied abortion were three times as likely to end up below the poverty line two years later. there are direct economic implications of not having the right to choose. >> absolutely, the reality is any woman can have an unplanned, unwanted pregnancy. and even if that pregnancy is going well, it can all of a sudden take a turn for the worse. that is the immediate impact. the fact that disproportionately, women who have unplanned pregnancies are often in poverty, lacking health care, and sex education.

and so all of these things compound to keep those women in poverty and to make sure that if that woman can't manage that pregnancy appropriately, whether she has the right support or even if she is not allowed to terminate, that means that the child that she would give birth to starts off behind the 8-ball in poverty and with the same circumstances that plagued that child's mother. >> cecile, i don't mean to be on a tear against texas, by any means. i think it is a great state with a lot of great people from it. but michael burgess, the republican from texas, one of the outlandish things said on the floor, i want to play a little bit of his speech in his support. >> a 15-week baby, they have movements that are purposeful. they stroke their face. if they're a male baby they may have their hand between their legs, they feel pleasure. why is it so hard to think they could feel pain?

>> literally, please react to that. what did you think when you heard that? >> i can't even dignify, and choose not to tweet it out. i am a texan, i want to defend my state, full of reasonable people. unfortunately, not all of them are in the state legislature. the serious thing about these, we can laugh and say these bills are actually unconstitutional. the truth is a lot of people are getting hurt. texas is a good example where governor perry has cut more than 100,000 women off of basic health care, having nothing to do with abortion, literally, cancer screening, health care, he is on his own political mission that is absolutely devastating to the women of texas. and that is why we have to get serious about this. >> cecile richards, and dr. willy parker, thank you for joining us, and thanks for your time. coming up, why is john boehner bringing bills to the floor that won't become law but insisting on stopping ones that

might? joy reid and e.j.dionne will join me. and we now have the transcript of the irs interview that darrell issa didn't want america to see. what is in them? exactly what we thought. after that, an exploration into just how republicans justify cutting funds for food stamps. [ female announcer ] made just a little sweeter... because all these whole grains aren't healthy unless you actually eat them ♪ multigrain cheerios. also available in delicious peanut butter. healthy never tasted so sweet. where over seventy-five percent of store management started as i'm the next american success story. working for a company hourly associates. there's opportunity here. i can use

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the new poll showed the president's approval rating has dropped eight points, and based on what we see, we can see what his approval rating will be. next week it goes up eight months, let's see why, he makes it illegal to post photos of your friend's baby. in july, it will drop eight months, let's see why, he hires ms. utah as speech writer, and then his points go up, let's see why.

up next, speaker john boehner's popularity inside his own party. joy reid and e.j. dionne join me. i want to make things more secure.

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speakership on immigration reform. >> i don't see any way of bringing an immigration bill to the floor that doesn't have the majority support of republicans. the senate bill is weak on border security. i think the internal enforcement mechanisms are weak, and the triggers are almost laughable. and so if they're serious about getting an immigration bill finished, i think the president, the democrats ought to reach out to their republican colleagues to build broad bipartisan support for the bill. >> here is a reaction from a republican colleague in the senate. >> he is the leader of the house, let them pass their version, let us pass our version. if anybody thinks you can pass the bill without 70% of support, among the population, i think it is misjudging the time.

>> and here is a reaction from a republican on the far right fringe. >> if one of the main reasons for passing the gang of 8 immigration bill is so republicans can prove that they don't hate hispanics, then what is next? are the republicans going to have to support gay marriage to prove that they don't hate gays? and then are the republicans going to have to support affirmative action that they don't hate blacks? what are we supposed to make the women do to realize we don't hate them? support abortion? >> joining me now is joy reid and "the washington post," e.j. dionne. joy, let us start first with the choice sound bite from rush-bo, memo, to the republican party. remember we're the party of

angry white people. honestly, you want to say yes, rush, you do need to change your position on all of those issues. >> it is yes, yes, yes, and indeed, yes. that is the answer. you figured it out. this is hysterical, the person i pity is lindsey graham. you have to feel sorry for him. he gets it. he knows he has to do this, but from the right, one of the angry white guys coming from his state, saying how dare you let all the illegals come into the country? they will understand that it is dragging down their party. they can't stop themselves. >> you know, e. j., for a long time we talked about the difficult position the president was in. he had no one he could play ball with on the right because speaker john boehner was so weak. and now you almost feel sorry for people like lindsey graham, trying to pass this in congress.

and i will draw your attention to a profile in politico, not but just a few weeks ago, where john boehner said you're missing my style. i don't need to be out there beating the drum every day. my job as a leader is to build the team, encourage the members and let the institution work. it doesn't need the heavy hand of the speaker all over everything. what do you make of that, e. j.? >> i'm trying to determine if that is the statement of a leader or a guy who just keeps score during the basketball game, or even the coach. you know, john boehner is in a very difficult position. you know what struck me about his speech today, at one point he said i have no plans to do this. there is a pattern here. the pattern is that john boehner says no, i won't make a deal. no, i wouldn't bring up a bill that doesn't get a majority of

the republicans to vote for it. and then on certain issues after saying all of that he then brings up a bill like the 8 bill, like the tax bill at the beginning of the year and lets it pass with democratic votes. so i didn't see that statement today as anything but a negotiating posture, as much with his own right wingers as with the democrats. >> isn't that -- joy, the only word that comes to mind is fairly pathetic, given the fact this is his own caucus? now john boehner has already violated the situation on the sandy bill, the women's act, he has gotten gruff from his own party. nobody is getting the head fake here. so why bother with it? why not have a legacy that stands the test of time and do the meaningful immigration reform? >> and the only way he could be not the weakest speaker, he would say you're going to go along with me, or i'm going to

go to nancy pelosi and she will give me a vote. so either you vote for me, or i'm going to get the votes from the democrats. that would be a strong speaker. but john boehner is like the guy who can't control his own preschool class so he decides to let them play. >> rush limbaugh is saying you're just going to make a whole bunch of new democrats, we're talking 13 years. republicans don't think 13 years it will take the pathway to get the citizenship that they can figure out decent issues that hispanics can vote for? that is pathetic. >> this is a long-term game. right? the republicans probably have to make -- feel some short-term pain, perhaps to get the long-term benefits. but the long-term benefits are there. that said, i am very skeptical that the republican party gets through this immigration reform process without sort of knee-capping itself among hispanics and minorities. steve king tweeted out the other

day, when a bunch of dreamers came to the hill to make their case for immigration reform, steve king tweets, 20 brazen self-possessed illegal aliens just invaded my office. obama's order gives them de facto immunity from the law. >> i think you have seen this over and over again, that a lot of latino voters are not turned off only on issues, but about the way the republicans talk about them. that term "aliens." but i think there is more conflict going on here, the term, the average republican, who represents the district where very few republicans represent latinos. most of them will vote against immigration reform.

there is a party interest in repairing the interest with latinos. i think that what is going to matter in the house is not that republicans vote for the bill, but a whole lot of republicans decide we're going to have to pass this. i'm going to let john boehner bring it to the floor. if it passes i think that is what is going to happen. >> we shall see, watch this space carefully. joy reid and e.j. dionne, thank you for joining us. >> great to be with you. this morning we lost a friend and colleague. writer and reporter michael hastings died in a car accident in los angeles today, he was 33, he most recently worked at "buzz feed," although you can find his news in a number of areas. michael was brash, funny, fearless, and he will be missed. [ phil ] when you have joint pain and stiffness... accomplishing even little things can become major victories.

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this was the targeting of the president's political enemies, effectively, and lies about it during the election year so that it was not discovered until afterwards. >> never let the facts get in the way of a good story. that was a super serious charge house oversight committee chair darrell issa made against the obama white house against the handling of the tea party negotiations for irs status. it is a potential wrongdoing that the committee would want to

ask about when they rooted in cincinnati where they were processed. question, in your opinion was the decision to screen and centralize the review of tea party cases the targeting of the president's political enemies? answer, i do not believe that the screening of these cases has anything to do other than consistency and identifying issues that needed to have further development. drop mike. go home. darrell issa refused calls to release the full transcript of that interview. so today, ranking member elijah cummings did it for him. >> it is basically starting with one man who believed that he was doing his job. and he so happened to be a conservative republican that spent six hours with our committee in an interview. when you look at all of the -- the transcripts, there has not been one single syllable

alleging in any way that the white house was involved in this targeting. but yet, and still, our republican chairman and other chairmen in the house have gone about saying there was some enemies' list and that the administration was not being forthright and that they were involved. well, there is nothing like that? more revealing question and answer with that same manager, what is your party affiliation? i am a conservative republican. are you aware of any political bias by the employees in the cincinnati office against conservative views? i am not aware of that. are you aware of any political motivations behind the screening, centralizing and development of tea party cases? i am not aware of that. do you have any reason to believe that executives in washington directed the screening of all tea party cases for enhanced scrutiny? i do not.

joining me now are julian epstein, a democratic strategist, and david corn, washington bureau chief for "mother jones" and an msnbc political analyst, julian, i find these transcripts revealing and i would like to read a little more to the viewing public from darrell issa who had much to say about the release of these transcripts. he said i am deeply disappointed that ranking member cummings has decided to broadly disseminate and post on line, for ir officials to navigate in interviews with congress, after unsuccessfully trying to convince the american people that irs officials in washington did not play a role in scrutinizing the individuals. julian, if anyone is flailing

here it looks like it is darrell issa. >> right, i think your viewers need to realize that darrell issa released other transcripts and cherry-picked information to make his case, which now looks like it is falling apart. while we can say we don't have all the information here, alex, we do have most of the essential information, including what really is a smoking gun. and the smoking gun has turned out to be a big dud. a republican career staffer inside the cincinnati office of the irs saying he was the one initiating the targeting. all it turns out to be according to the republican staffer who initiated the targeting, they all turned out to be the technical unit in the irs to ensure that guess what? that cases were handled efficiently. and furthermore, we learned the cases got to the higher-ups in the irs, they were told not once, but twice to stop the targeting. this is now being confirmed by the most important witness, the

single most important witness in the investigation. i think at the end of the day, darrell issa is not only going to owe an apology to the president, not only to jay carney who he called a liar in a reckless way, but he probably has to apologize to the republicans for bringing them down a rabbit hole here, without any ability, after great promises they would turn out the scandal. this is a huge embarrassment to issa and the committee and reinforces the narrative that republicans can't really govern. they sure can't do oversight. >> david corn, when you read the full transcript it is clear how desperate they are to find something, anything that smells suspicious. and i want to read this exchange. the irs official is asked, okay, sir, i'm sure you have heard the notion that this is all a result of two rogue employees in cincinnati. do you agree with that assessment? the irs official says i do not know of any rogue employee located in cincinnati.

the questioner goes back, could you ex--- expound on that. david, there is no there, there. david, there is no there, there. >> you know, if you have made it through 205 pages of this, i commend you. i'm only through the first 100 pages and had trouble staying awake. these are not the watergate tapes. it is full of information about the eo technical division, the directives, buckets where they put case files in. i mean, julian got it right. if anything, it proves that there was nothing like the narrative that darrell issa was describing. but let's remember, it is not just little old darrell issa on his own. you had dave kemp, the head of the republican chairman ways and means committee, saying we know this didn't start in cincinnati. oops, you had rogers, the head

of the appropriation committee, the head of the republican division, these guys are making rick perry look smart. they have been out there for weeks and months, trying to generate a scandal that doesn't exist. and it is not just their eyes, that is going to owe president obama and jay carney an apology. they owe the american public for wasting their time on this. it was a real issue, what happened in cincinnati was wrong and mistakes were made in the classic phrase, but they were mistakes made at a pretty low level, don't track back to the white house. they deserve responsible oversight, not the circus or the clown show that darrell issa has presided over. >> and that is the essential point. it is not just that there is no information at all. inconsistent with what the

republicans have said, that there is any trace whatsoever to the white house or the obama political or campaign staff. this has been a pattern. remember in the case of fast and furious, they held at least 18 hearings, we found out that eric holder was the person who discovered the gun walking in mexico, the person who removed responsible officials. the person that got an investigation going and he was ultimately exonerated by the inspector general. not withstanding the statements made by the committee, the same thing on the benghazi matter. we found out at the end of the day it is the cia and fbi that didn't want to identify specific terror suspects for legitimate reasons. >> and are conservatives even capable of the apology at this point? rush limbaugh says well, on this business, well, obama didn't tell people at the irs to do it. the manager doesn't tell the

pitcher to throw a brushback pitch, the pitcher just knows to do it. there is still this contention out there that president obama is sending brain waves to his minions to target the conservatives. >> and particularly, the conservatives, cincinnati, the hotbed of activism in cincinnati. i'm reminded of the last great life in the hitchcock movie, they say what are you going to do with people like this? you can't just go into the fox world and make people see reason. you can't have rush limbaugh ever say oops, we got this wrong. let's move on to something else. this is part of the narrative. they keep saying you know if we get the facts wrong, there is still a credibility issue at the white house, a still troublesome worrisome pattern, they sure are not governing.

they would rather do this than get close to the immigration bill. >> it is a cold, cold world, where truth is in hibernation, thank you both for joining me tonight. coming up, the nsa makes its case. and the congressmen who call themselves fiscally conservative. you hurt my feelings, todd.

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♪ [ agent smith ] ge software connects patients to nurses to the right machines while dramatically reducing waiting time. [ telephone ringing ] now a waiting room is just a room. [ static warbles ] >> what amuses me, obama is coming in with the black helicopters. >> that was president obama responding to a question about the nsa surveillance operation. this is what happened today at the house hearing on the very same subject. >> has the nsa ever tracked any political enemies of the administration, whether it is a republican administration or democratic administration? have either of the administrations, you said you're 100% audible, so you would know this answer to this question. have you ever tracked the members of the opposite political side?

>> no. >> ari melber joins me coming up. but next, how they would rather pay for money at gitmo than paying for money for school lunches in the united states. why let constipation weigh you down? as soon as you feel it, try miralax. it works differently than other laxatives. it draws water into your colon to unblock your system naturally. don't wait to feel great. miralax. take the miralax pledge to feel better sooner. get a reward like a beauty treatment, a dance class or a $5 gift card with purchase of a specially marked pack. go to miralax.com for details.

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to close gitmo was defeated by a vote of 174 to 249. while 21 democrats voted to keep guantanamo open for business, the amendment was unquestionably killed with republican knives. 220 members of the gop voted against it. among the moments that the country is treated to weekly if not daily basis, the failure of the amendment is an example. the party of fiscal hawks voted to continue to import judges, lawyers, observers, reporters, meals, construction materials and basically anything else you might ever need while in cuba, to the tune of 903,614 per prisoner each year. in case you wondered, locking up a prisoner in the united states costs at most, 60 to $70,000 a

year. and in case you had forgotten, 80% of the prisoners at gitmo had been cleared for release because they had not been found guilty of any crime. for the last several months, the protests regarding the inhumane incarceration, 104 of the gitmo prisoners have been starving themselves as part of a hunger strike. for some of them, today marks the 128th day of that strike. and yet at the same time that the republican penny pinchers shut down the effort to stop spending millions and millions of dollars to continue imprisoning men who have not yet been charged with anything, at the same time, tonight republicans have gone forward with the plan to cut funding for food stamps. this week, the house will vote on its version of the farm bill. which, among many other things cuts farm and nutrition programs by nearly $40 billion over the next decade.

according to "the new york times," just over half of that, $25 billion would be cut to the assistance program, or as we know them, food stamps. these cuts, embraced by house republicans, including speaker john boehner will cut basic food assistance for 2 million americans. the people hardest hit are poor working families with children and senior citizens. precisely for those reasons, president obama has threatened a veto if the bill containing those cuts makes it to his desk. but how, how on earth can the republican party justify the breath-taking hypocrisy, according to steven fincher, this is how you justify. >> the law says that the poor will always be with us, and the role of citizens and humanity is

to take care of each other. but not for washington to steal money from the country and give it to those others in the country. >> in reality, the bible says nothing about washington, in reality there is no justification for the deception and the equivocation of this modern party. instead, their actions are rooted in the desperate hope that the people rotting in prison stay there, and that the men and women going hungry remain weak enough to stay quiet. a friend under water is something completely different. i met a turtle friend today so, you don't get that very often. it seemed like it was more than happy to have us in his home. so beautiful. avo: more travel. more options. more personal.

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[ female announcer ] come in to find the right credit options for your needs. because when people talk, great things happen. you may have noticed lawrence o'donnell is not here tonight, and here is why. this is a photograph lawrence tweeted from malawi, it is where most school children sit on the floor. thanks to generous donations by many of you through the kind fund, these desks are made and delivered to schools there. look for more pictures from lawrence on the facebook page and you can read more about the kids from msnbc.com. up next, the nsa defends its telephone surveillance program. i want to make things more secure.

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different terror plots have been stopped because of the nsa surveillance program. officials have made four public and say the remainder will remain classified. the director says if the programs are compromised the nation could face a greater terrorist threat. >> i have concerns that the intentional and irresponsible release of classified information about these programs will have a long and irreversible impact on our nation's security and on that of our allies. i want to emphasize that the foreign intelligence programs that we're talking about is the best counterterrorism tools that we have to go after these guys, we can't lose the capabilities. >> he then turned to his deputy to lay out the government's argument as to how the nsa uses these programs while protecting american privacy. here is a portion of the exchange concerning tracking phone calls.

>> the first program executed under section 215 of the patriot act authorizes the collection of telephone meta data only. as you heard before, the meta data is only the telephone number and contact, the time of the call and duration of this call. now, this authority, therefore, does not allow the government to listen in on a person's phone call, even that of a terrorist. >> the deputy director went on to describe the multiple layers of oversight involved, arguing that the government has achieved the right balance of security and privacy. critics are calling the hearing nothing more than a platform for the nsa to make its case. writing for salon, the writer concluded it may as well have been titled "everything fine, stop making a scene." edward snowden continues to claim the government is not telling the truth. asked yesterday in a website, he still was asked if he makes the

claims that he could wiretap anyone, he answered yes, i stand by it. joining me is co-host of msnbc's "the cycle," ari melber, i think it is a fascinating subject, regardless of where you're a democrat or republican. there are no clear lines here, the question is who do you believe? the nsa or the deputies or do you believe the anti-hero, maybe-hero, exiled in hong kong? >> yes, and i believe the portion of it is a strong support for the government. we also have democrats and republicans in office trying to make this about snowden who seems to admit to breaking serious laws which upsets many. when you look at the law, much of what is said is incomplete to the point of misleading. in particular, clapper has lied under oath to congress for people who care about that kind

of thing, perjury, which is also a crime as we talk about crimes in relation to information. i'll give you one example. last year, under the rules of the patriot act as expanded, the justice department reported they did 212 business records searches, we've heard that number around, heard it is not a lot. what is amazing, it shows that one of the searches requests goes to the lines they call the meta data, but put that aside, what it means is it affected millions of people and was done through one request. so i have said many times in looking at this that the 212 number provided to congress was incomplete to the point of fabrication, because it gave you the opposite view of what was going on. >> you need to add zeros to be more accurate. snowden, the other interesting

piece, snowden as much as he is called into question, the reputation of the president and his administration he is also not totally giving up on him. he outlines provisions the president should put in place, calling for a special committee to review the investigation and beginning the examination of the president's record after he leaves office. what do you think of those? >> i think two out of three are reasonable. it is a bipartisan pro-executive branch function that basically says certain things wouldn't be litigated in court. for those of us, myself included who were fighting on issues of torture, we all remember the way the privilege was used by the bush administration, because it kept torture victims out of court. that was bad for torture victims, i think we have to roll those things back, we don't do that without public pressure. presidents don't give up their own power. >> ari melber gets tonight's last word.

you can catch my show, now, weekdays at noon eastern right you mean there's no scandal? let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews up in new york. let me start tonight with this. once there was a whiff of scandal, you know that whiff of scandal over at the irs. well, now we learn there is not even that whiff. no, not even a whiff. no. just one desperate california congressman whose bluff has been called. and with us tonight, the man who called the bluff, u.s. congressman elijah cummings, ranking democrat on the house oversight committee. congressman, thank you about this whole thing. you have produced today a lot of information, a lot of transcripts. tell us what they show about whether there was a scandal at