tv.msnbc.com. and, of course, the great chris matthews and "hardball" picks things up right now. tony. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews down in washington. let me start tonight with this, they are the american icons. we see in them something of ourselves, our times, our struggles, even our dreams. in the aftermath of world war ii it was all about aspiration, of new doors open, but also old traditions being honored. our american icons were willie mace and michael mantle. then things started to get looser and along came elvis

presley. in the 1960s our eyes looked to the stars, of the very notion of jackie kennedy. in the 1970s it was a time of agitating the old, of testing the new, 6 archie bunker and also coming in michael jackson and as the century moved to its conclusion with the economy booming, it was madonna, the material girl, and then bruce springsteen, and in the easterly le 21st century, this century of ours in the aftermath of 9/11, it was all about trying to hold things together, especially our families and our american eye korn became husband, a father, a guy from jersey, a crime boss. his name, tony soprano. james lipton is the host of bra bravo's inside the actors study and paul farry is with "the washington post." i want to start with about tony soprano and jam gandolfini's portrayal. he was just a guy trying to hold a family together. an early first season episode he was on a car trip to visit

prospective colleges with his daughter, meadow. soprano confronts him about his line of work. listen here, she does. >> are you in the mafia? >> am i in the what? >> whatever you want to call it? organized crime. >> that's total crap. who told you that? >> dad, i have lived in the house all my life. i have seen police come with warrants. i have seen you going out at 3:00 in the morning. juf never seen doc go out at 3:00 in the morning in a call. >> did they ever find a .45 automatic when they were hunting for easter eggs. >> i'm in the waste management business. it's a stereotype and it's offensive. you're the last person i would want to perpetuate it. >> fine. >> and tony soprano is trying to hold his marriage together, certainly this clip shows tony and his wife on the way home from their first marriage therapy session. let's listen.

>> what? right. i'm the one that doesn't [ bleep ] communicate? >> you want to know what's wrong? after 19 years of marriage, i find it very sad that we have to pay someone to teach us how to interact. >> you were all in favor. >> wow. even tony soprano's relationship with his mother is always threatening to get out of control. at least in this scene he confronts her on a hospital gurney for trying to have him whacked. the mother trying to have the son killed. let's listen. >> i have the tapes ma, the [ bleep ] tapes. tonight tell me you don't know what we're talking about. uncle june is in jail now and i have one more detail i have to take care of. >> mr. soprano. >> [ bleep ] ma. i am going to live a nice long happy life which is more than i can say for you. >> that's enough! >> keep her moving. keep moving. >> i try to do the right thing by you. you try to have me whacked.

>> that is so unbelievable. his mother being rolled away in the gurney tried to get him killed and he says, okay, george clooney, which is an old italian street thing. that is so richly ethnic. >> that's why we loved the guy. because he seems so able to relate to all of the problems that we all have. we're trying to keep our family together, we're trying to keep our business together, we're trying to succeed with all these pressures coming after us, including our mother issues, including our work issues, and all the family problems we have. it was weird to be able to put together this sociopath with all of the things that we relate to as regular people. >> james lipton, you know james gandolfini. he died young the other day over in italy at the age of 51 of a heart attack. must have been a terrible heart attack. he didn't make it. he was alive getting to the hospital but he didn't make it

there. this character he was able to create for all of us and for all time, how could he be a guy we loved but a guy that was a killer? >> because he was such a wonderful actor. that was the secret of that role. he played in two families. in one family he was the victim, always the victim. and he was always on the defensive, and we felt sorry for him. we began to root for him the way we used to root for w.c. fields when kids would throw bricks at him. and then the other family, he was the killer, and that was the miracle that david chase made and that was the miracle that gandolfini was able to bring to life for him. he was able to live both sides of that wall, and they were not an tip tal. he turned them into one human being who we understood no matter what he was doing, killing or being killed. >> they say critics -- you're a critic and james is a theater expert, but i don't think people came out of that watching tony

soprano saying i want to be a gangster. >> no. >> they came out of it saying i want to be a better dad. i want to be a better person. i want to get through it. yes, paul. >> i mean, it was in some ways the american dream. we all want to be achieving. we all want to be striving. we all want to have the things that tony soprano was trying to get, and yet by our character, by our flaws, we are held back, and that was the kind of message -- >> but he didn't live like some big shot. he lived better off than most people. that was a nice house. the wife was well taken care of. but he wasn't sitting around like some big shot. it's interesting these mob characters sitting around in some little house in florida with linoleum on the floor eating tuna fish and watching the ball game. what is this about mobster where they don't really live like pooh-bahs? >> the thing about him is he was so troubled and he had so many issues and so many things that his success was never really

realized or achieved. he always had this sense that he was going to be a tragic hero or, you know, a hero or an anti-hero who would never get where he was going. >> and powerless at home. >> absolutely. and a powerful as he was in his work life in the mob life, he had to deal with the same things that everybody has to deal with, the wife, the children's troubles. >> james, i love the scene when the daughter, meadow, he's in the kitchen, the daughter comes in and walks past him like he's not even there, like the kids are quite good at that when they want to do that. you aren't there. and he couldn't do a thing about it. >> remember something about this show. i think one of the master strokes of "the sopranos" was that he went into analysis. what did the analysis do? it is the precise equivalent of the shakespearean soliloquy. it allows us to listen to thinks thoughts. that i thought was the most brilliant thing of all the brilliant things that david chase did when he sat down in front of his analyst and began

to talk, we were literally listening to the equivalent of a shakespearean sill lol inquire. >> was it all chase who came up with this, the idea of a neurotic guy who knew he needed therapy but a guy who was willing to kill people with his bare hands? >> well, and chase comes out of new jersey, comes out of an italian background. in some ways, and he has said this before, it was autobiographical, not obviously the mafia aspects of it, but the family dynamics and the cultural references and the struggles that tony soprano had every time. >> so i wonder, i wonder, james, theater is your business and politics is my obsession, i guess. if we had politicians that could evoke this kind of personality obviously without being criminals, i think we'd have a lot more popular politicians. i think clinton had a piece of this. i think we always knew clinton's problems. he was the most transparent guy ever to be president. all his problems were human problems and we knew what they were no matter what he said, and yet people today really look back on him with tremendous

afeshtion. >> we like a little evil in people. it's one of the most -- it's true. it's one of the most attractive qualities that a person can have. we like to know that someone is vulnerable, that someone is evil. why? because we're vulnerable and evil. we like to know these people are like us, and tony soprano was like us. >> here is some reaction to this. he died -- you get older you realize how young 51 is. here is the reaction from the new jersey political community. governor christie said he was a fine actor, a rutgers alum, and a true jeer si guy. i was a huge fan of his and the character he played so authentically, tony soprano. i have gotten to know jimmy and many of the other actors in the sopranos cast and i can each of them are an individual new jersey treasure. cory booker, my condolences to the family and all those who loved james gandolfini. we have concerned that italians

are portrayed unfairly as all crooks, but certainly you have the mafia as a reality, and it's accepted as a reality even though it's obviously a minuscule subset of people of that background. and yet there was a lot of concern about this. i think rudy got upset about this in the beginning and i don't know whether it was the anti-defamation league or the italian thing and all that, but for some reason this thing hasn't caused a stirring opposition by any community, especially the italian-american community. >> let me compare it to a very unlike show, which is "jersey shore" -- exactly. >> perpetrated every stereotype about italian-americans and the criticism was unrelenting of that show. the reason why the sopranos didn't get the same kind of criticism is because that wasn't the only thing you saw. you saw so much more. you saw the -- >> the good wife. >> the good wife. the family dynamics, the culturals aspects of it that mae it so much more than just a stereotype. >>s in a clip of his appearance

on inside the actor's studio. >> if heaven exists, what would you like to hear god say when you arrive at the pearly gates? >> take over for a while, i'll be right back. no, no. no, no, no. >> that's it. >> no. >> you dare not change it. it's too good. >> think of the possibilities. >> james, every time i meet an actor i am in love with and think is great and you meet them and realize, somebody once said this of carey grant, you met gary grant and you wish you hadn't met him because he isn't carey grant. nobody can be, you need a great line, a scene, the camera. what was he like as opposed to his character? >> you're talking about carey grant or james gandolfini? >> let's go with the more immediate question. james gandolfini. >> he was absolutely what you see on the screen there. he was himself. he was never anything but himself. >> you mean in your show, on your show. >> that's right. remember that my show is a

master class and a master's degree program at pace university. he was there to teach, and he taught our students -- we've been on 19 years. we just did our 250th episode, and rarely in the 19 years has anybody brought as much technique and craft to our stage as that man did. he was trained for two years by sanford meisner's people and he gave our students a lesson in acting that was -- o life va couldn't have done better. pacino didn't do better. gandolfini was right up there with him. those two things rn combined in him, tack nek aechnique and tal. >> he's going to be missed and i can't wait to read you tomorrow, paul, and rather hear more from you james lipton. taken away from us too early, way too early. an icon. we don't have many icons. they come along once or twice a decade. tony soprano for better or worse, in sickness and in health, was our guy. thank you. coming up -- thank you paul and

thank you, james. >> i hope he does take over up there. wouldn't that be nice. >> well, let's consider that in another program. anyway, how far off the rails are the nra right now? they're attacking west virginia senator joe manchin, a gun toting guy. they went after him. what do they want? they helped write the bill he came up, which was on background checks to keep the people who should never have a gun from getting one and then they jumped him. we'll get real tough tonight with him. plus, call it the border surge. like in the military down in afghanistan, senators bob corker and john hoeven of north dakota in that case have a plan to toughen up border security and win over more of their gop colleagues. but it turns out the first cash 1u89 of this war might be one of their colleagues, marco rubio. piting getting hurt by this. and here is a character for your political pantheon. bishop e.w. jackson, a republican running for lieutenant governor in virginia. he says while slavery was bad

for the african-american family, lyndon johnson's great society was worse. talk about hyperbole. let me finish with the goal of an honest, please god, an honest immigration law, one we can be proud to enforce. this is "hardball," the place for politics. she promised them... a tropical paradise. but the mutiny is already in full swing. just wait till they tell everyone back home... how she totally booking nailed it!

now the only issue is: who gets that? planet earth's number one accomodation site: booking.com booking.yeah! you're going to love this. barack obama famously said there aren't red states or blue states in this country, just the united states, but as president he hasn't quite lived up to that hopeful rhetoric. take a look at this map. this map shows the six states, there they are, that the president has never set foot in. never set foot in while president. no surprise they're all deep red states. and here is another seven the president has only visited once in all the time he's been president in five years. the green ones there. by contrast, president obama's visited the swing state of colorado, guess what, 19 times. he's been to florida 30 times. he's traveled to ohio 39 times. and he won all three of those states in both of his elections. we'll be right back.

vo: i've always thought the best part about this country is that we get to create our future. you get to take ownership of the choices you make. the person you become. i've been around long enough to recognize the people who are out there owning it. by contrast, president obama's the ones getting involved and staying engaged. they're not sitting by as their life unfolds. by contrast, president obama's and they're not afraid to question the path they're on. because the one question they never want to ask is "how did i end up here?" i started schwab for those people. people who want to take ownership of their investments, like they do in every other aspect of their lives.

welcome back to "hardball." well, one week ago today the national rifle association turned on one of its own, an "a" rated lawmaker, senator joe manchin of west virginia, with this tough ad. >> remember this tv ad? >> i'm joe manchin. i approve this ad because i will always defend west virginia. as your senator, i'll protect our second amendment rights. >> that was joe manchin's commitment, but now manchin is working with president obama and new york mayor michael bloomberg. concerned? you should be. tell senator manchin to honor his commitment to the second amendment. >> well, senator manchin did not leave that challenge unanswered, and today he fired back with an ad of his own. >> i'm joe manchin, and i approve this message to bring common sense to washington. i am alitime nra member but i don't walk in lock step with the nra's washington leadership,

this administration, or any special interest group. west virginia, you know me. i haven't changed, and you know i have always fought for our gun rights. i believe we can protect the second amendment and make our community safer. i think most law-abiding gun owners agree with me. call the nra and tell them to support criminal background checks. >> he's fighting back and perhaps without realizing it he followeded advice, i'm kidding, in a 1988 book about how politics is really played. chapter seven of hard bawl is entitled leave no shot unanswered. welcome and thank you for joining us. i think what you're doing here is so important in life, it's about character, it's about personal reputation and a man or woman must defend their reputation. when some people out there from washington, paid lobbyists, go out after you because you dared to be independent and to develop what i think is a very centrist position on gun safety, they

couldn't stand it that you look good, so here they are throwing mud at you after the fight's at least initial battle is over. why do you think they decided to go after you after the skirmish after they won on that vote on the background check, i think they shouldn't have won, but why did they come back at you and why do you think they did that? >> chris, i think they're afraid that this is not going away, and they're correct it's not going away. it makes so much sense. law-abiding gun owners like myself basically have the premise that we're not going to sell to a stranger. wrer not going to give it to someone who is mentally deranged. we're not going to sell it to a family member who is not responsible. so it only makes sense if you go to a gun show, commercial, or go online, since i'm that law-abiding gun owner, i don't want someone to get the gun i don't know who they are. that makes sense, and they knew sooner or later that they couldn't continue to keep telling the law-abiding nra

members like me that what they were saying isn't true. >> let's talk about the road forward. i think you have shown you have your dukes up and everybody knows you're a rifleman and you know how to clean a gun, you know how to get the bullet out. i was impressed by that. let's talk about the future. it seems to me it's hard, you tell me if i'm wrong, you have four democrats and all the republicans voting the other way. they didn't want gun safety on this, they didn't want background checks on people that go to gun shows. crazy people can show up at a gun show. let's talk about what worked. it's hard to get people to change their minds, those four people and any other republicans. is there another route there where you could go for what they tried to do that also didn't pass, the gun trafficking effort that got up to 58 votes. is there a way to outfrank the nra and win a big one or not? >> where we are, chris, right now, there's 45 senators that did not vote for this. for whatever reason. and, you know, i'm talking and still working and all that and i want to make sure that any concerns they might have,

clarifications that are needed, will be there. the biggest help we can do and the biggest help i can have right now is for all groups to be able to just go into these states where we have senators that did not vote for it and try to educate the populace there, their constituents. if we have gun owners, law-abiding gun owners that know that not only do we not try to infringe on their rights, we improved, we protected and improved their second amendment rights, but with a law-abiding begun owner, we have responsibilities, too, and that is to make sure that the wrong people don't get guns. if you're crazy, if you're a criminal, and if you're a terrorist, we don't want you to have them. >> have you come across -- you don't have to tell me the names, but have you come across any senators on the republican side or the four democrats that has said to you, if you'd only done this thing, i could have been with you, and what is that thing they wanted changed? >> you know, there's a lot of talk going on. there's an awful lot of people that know on both sides that voted against that know this

makes common sense, but have they been pushed into a position where they can't retreat and you know the dynamics of politics better than most. with that being said, chris, there's an awful lot of people that haven't said much at all. a lot of people you haven't heard from that haven't been identified. and if their constituents have comfort, have an understanding that this bill not only preserves but it protects and it enhances their rights and all they're asked to do is make sure when you go to a gun show you know who you're selling your gun to, if someone calls you or identifies you online, you know who they are, that's not too much to ask and law-biding gun owners, nra members like me, there's 4 million plus nra members and i guarantee you most of them feel like i do. the leadership in washington has left them. >> this is so important. i have watched your arguments on this on television. i have seen it in the ad again today. wane lapierre, he's a famous guy, we know who he is, he's a tough gun guy. i think he's moved further to the right than he ever was

before. but how does that distinguish him, there he is in the picture there, how does that compare to the guys you meet and the women you meet in your state of west virginia who are gun owners and members of the nra? do they see him as a distinctive figure on his own or do they see him as a leader. >> the people of west virginia are just pure, sincere, law-abiding gun owners. 24e don't have a commercial interest. they don't have a $1 million salary. they don't have all the fringes that come with the trappings of washington. with that being said, what they're trying to do is basically look at this and make sense. when they start seeing what we've done to the bill, you know what they said? and you mean the nra in washington is against this? we've been fighting for some of these provisions for the last decade or more. and i said all -- i said, guess what? in 1999 the nra leadership in washington pretty much the same people, were for this. i haven't changed. they changed, chris. >> congratulations, senator.

you're doing something i believe people have to do in politics. if somebody is bad mouthing you, you have to straighten that story out to so your friends will know you're right, they'll understand where you're coming from a and they won't believe the bs being thrown at them. i wish mr. obama, the president, who i really like and support, would do more of this when it came to things like irs. thank you so much, senator joe manchin. >> thank you for having me. >> who has responded to the bad stories. up next, virginia's republican candidate for lieutenant governor, this guy, what a character. he strikes again. we will this guy cost his party the lest down there in the old dominion? this is "hardball," the place for politics. [ man ] on december 17, 1903,

the wright brothers became the first in flight. [ goodall ] i think the most amazing thing lest down there in the old s ar. [ laughing ] [ woman ] can you hear me? and you hear your voice? oh, it's exciting! [ man ] touchdown confirmed. we're safe on mars. [ cheers and applause ] ♪ hi. [ baby fussing ] ♪ lest down there in the old otherworldly things. but there are some things i've never seen before. this ge jet engine can understand 5,000 data samples per second. which is good for business. because planes use less fuel, spend less time on the ground and more time in the air. suddenly, faraway places don't seem so...far away. ♪

but with advair, i'm breathing better. so now i can help make this a great block party. ♪ [ male announcer ] advair is clinically proven to help significantly improve lung function. unlike most copd medications, advair contains both an anti-inflammatory and a long-acting bronchodilator working together to help improve your lung function all day. advair won't replace fast-acting inhalers for sudden symptoms and should not be used more than twice a day. people with copd taking advair may have a higher chance of pneumonia. advair may increase your risk of osteoporosis and some eye problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking advair. ask your doctor if including advair could help improve your lung function. [ male announcer ] advair diskus fluticasone propionate and salmeterol inhalation powder. get your first prescription free

and save on refills at advaircopd.com. back to "hardball." now to the "sideshow." first as the g-8 summit comes to a close, david letterman took a look back at memorable speeches

from u.s. presidents in that country and then some. >> we put together a collection of memorable presidential speeches that took place in germany at the brandenburg gate and we're going to show them to you. i think it will bring back quite a few memories. >> june 26, 1963. >> as a free man, i take pride in the words ich bin ein berliner. >> june 12th, 1987. >> mr. gor ba chof, tear down this wall. >> june -- >> last night jeb and i had some crabs with like members of the 1972 miami dolphins. dan marino and his really dynamic wife. >> well, in fairness to "w" that last one was obviously not made in germany. next, bishop e.w. jackson strikes again. virginia's republican candidate for lieutenant governor has been

snatching up headlines in recent weeks for his long history of controversial comments. among other things he's compared planned harnthood to the kk k and suggested yoga could lead people at risk of being possessed by satan. here is jackson speaking about government welfare programs at an event just yesterday. >> i'm telling you that slavery did not destroy the black people even though it senl was an attack on the black family. it made it difficult, but i'll tell you that the programs began in the '60s, the programs that began to tell women you dond need a man in the home, the government will take care of you, that began to tell men, you don't need to be in the home. the government will take care of this woman and take care of these children. that's when the black family began to deteriorate. by now, by this time, we have only 20% of black children being raised in two-parent monogamous families with a married man and

woman raising those children. it wasn't slavery that did that. it was government that did that. >> okay. why didn't he just say that welfare does run the danger of possibly killing self-reliance? that's an argument that some people can make. why muck it up, as he did, by comparing it to slavery? anyway, by the way, ken cuccinelli, the republican candidate for governor in virginia, would not weigh in on jackson's remarks when asked about them today. well, obviously he doesn't wanted to have touched by them. next, here is a question. what's one of the worst possible places to launch and carry out a congressional campaign? well, ask steven, a former alabama county commissioner who is considering a run for the united states congress. he happens to be serving out right now a two-year prison sentence on charges of perjury and harassment. that's not stopping him. in an e-mail he said he nou some will be skeptical of my interest in this congressional race before wrongfully being accused of crimes, drug abuse and personal mistakes. i have the determination,

experience, and the fortitude to serve as your u.s. congress man for the first congressional district. since he wouldn't be able to hold any in-person campaign events, nodine says he would focus on social media. the race will be a special election to fill the seat of joe bonner who plans to resign in august. an election date has not yet been set. finally, the latest from our "sideshow" regular, the innim mittable louis gohmert of texas. this time it's nothing to do with president obama's birth certificate or the muslim brotherhood infiltrating the administration. yesterday a reporter asked the congressman for his opinion on the employment nondiscrimination act which would prevent employers from firing someone simply because they're gay. here is gohmert's reaction. quote, who wants to go talking about sexual orientation when they're working? good grief. apparently he's only talking there about gay people. because i put this to you, what straight person fails to mention occasionally his or her spouse at work? nobody. coming up, will republicans

go along with immigration reform if border security is strengthened and hill marco rubio's presidential ambitions survive that fight over immigration. that's coming up next. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. take these bags to room 12 please. [ garth ] bjorn's small business earns double miles on every purchase every day. produce delivery. [ bjorn ] just put it on my spark card. [ garth ] why settle for less? ahh, oh! [ garth ] great businesses deserve unlimited rewards. here's your wake up call. [ male announcer ] get the spark business card from capital one and earn unlimited rewards. choose double miles or 2% cash back on every purchase every day. what's in your wallet? [ crows ] now where's the snooze button?

at work? place for politics. and didn't know where to start. a contractor before at angie's list, you'll find reviews on everything from home repair to healthcare written by people just like you. no company can pay to be on angie's list, so you can trust what you're reading. angie's list is like having thousands of close neighbors, where i can go ask for personal recommendations. that's the idea.

before you have any work done, check angie's list. find out why more than two million members count on angie's list. angie's list -- reviews you can trust. i love you, angie. sorry, honey.

i'm mandy drury with your cnbc market wrap. stocks endured a second day of big sell-offs after fed chairman ben bernanke said yesterday the fed would slow its bond buying stimulus program later on this year. as you can see, the dow plunged 353 points. the s&p tanked by 40. and the nasdaq lost 78. goal also plummeted to its lowest point in 2 1/2 years down more than 6% to settle under $1,300. existing home sales, however, increased by 4.2% in may, which is good news. the number of workers applying

for jobless benefits, however, up by 18,000 last week. and that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. now it's back over to "hardball" and chris matthews. ♪ welcome back to "hardball." of course, border surge, that's what the senators are calling a new border security plan authorized by republicans bob corker of tennessee and john hoeven of north dakota. it's being hailed as the grand bargain, the big compromise just agreed to or almost anyway. it's already being blessed by the gang of eight and it's attracting conservative voices on the issue like senator mark kirk, a republican from illinois who was considered one of the bill's biggest critics. what's in the surge? let's take a look right now. it would double the size of the border patrol along the mexican/american border adding 20,000 new agents. 350 miles of new fencing in addition to 350 already there and already covered.

it would strengthen the e verify system for employers to make sure their workers are legal. we should note those would all need to be set up before anyone could get a green card. and it would require a 90% removal rate for immigrants who overstay their visas. senator corker spoke about the plan earlier today on msnbc. let's listen to senator corker. >> for people who are concerned about border security, once they see what is in this bill, it's almost overkill, peter. i think if that's the issue that people have, i think everyone working together have come up with a way to deal with that issue. so i do hope that we can send it over to the house. >> well, senator lindsey graham, a key architect of the bill in this senate, has voiced his support as well for this new amendment saying, it's, quote, an overwhelming effort to secure our border short of shooting anybody who comes across. that's strong language. joining us is the co-author of the border surge, senator john hoeven, republican in north

dakota. senator, thank you so much. you were a governor so i have great confidence in you as an executive. and sometimes i think legislators don't know what they're talking about. they pass bills, they don't become effective, they don't have any teeth, they don't work, and we call them reform bills and 20 years later we're passing another reform bill because the first one was a joke. on immigration reform you know what went wrong in the 1986 bill. it never got enforced. we got amnesty without any border control, no employer sanctions. why should a skeptic believe that this time the congress with the support of hispanic groups, with the support of liberals and moderates, is willing to get tough and really pass a law we're proud to enforce? >> chris, good to be with you, and you were out in north dakota when i was governor, and got a chance to visit with you then. look, this bill focuses on making sure we secure the border first. that's what it's all about. you mentioned a lot of the things that are in the bill. what we provide is we secure the

border so we're not back in this situation where we have millions of illegal immigrants in this country ten years down the road. that's what it's all about. that's why it strengthens this comprehensive immigration reform effort. >> some people are skeptical of this bill because of the people behind it. you keep hearing from, for example, the organized hispanic community, and fair enough, they're concerned about people here illegally and they're trying to get them on a path to legality and it's a wonderfully worthwhile purpose. but are they also supportive, as you see it, is the bill supportive of the other side of the equation, stopping the problem from getting worse? >> absolutely. we put a $3.2 billion high-tech strategic plan right in the legislation. that must be deployed. that must be operational on the border in addition to 20,000 additional border patrol agents, 700 miles of fencing, and e verify system and an entry/exit system at all of our international airports and seaports before anyone could get

a green card. and so this is about border security first, which is why it should bring people together to -- it's what the american people want, and we should get a bipartisan vote to pass the legislation. >> so you're running a construction company braps up in north dakota, perhaps down near the border around arizona. you have 25 people you have working for you, and a new guy comes looking for a job and you suspect he's probably from across the border or he comes from a background you think might be a problem. you don't know. so you want to make sure you haven't hired somebody illegally. how under this system can you be sure you're not breaking the law and be sure you have a good person here a good authorized person to be in the cannot and you you're solid on the law. how do you be sure of that under your bill? >> because employers are required to use the e verify system. you're on the right suggest. it's not just about securing the border, it's also about taking away the incentive to come here illegally. do you that with e verify and a proper guest worker program so the people that come don't want to come because they can't get a job because we'll catch them

with e verify if they can get across our secure border which they won't be able to and you have a guest worker program so they can come legally and go back home. >> you sound like a great man, senator, governor, as good a tight al as well. but senator john hoeven thank you from north dakota. i hope you follow with that consistency right through the conference. i don't want to see any hanky-panky in the conference. this has to be a bill we're proud to enforce for the next 350 years. youning us now is ed rendell, former governor of pennsylvania. governor, it sounds like he's on the right track. it sounds like a tough proposal. i'm wondering whether the liberal side of this equation will accept what looks to be a darn tough approach to enforce am. >> i think we will, chris, for two reasons. number one, because it took away the requirement that we reach 90% apprehension of anybody who tries to get across the border. it turns that into a goal. that's very important because the 90% figure was in some ways

particularly early on unattainable or undocumentable. so i think that would have -- that was in the cornyn amendment and that was a poison pill. you took away that. this is almost overkill, senator corker said that himself, but senator cork ser a good man and i know john hoeven from the sim we served as governors together. he's a very good man. i think this bill is necessary. we want the path to citizenship. the only way realistically we're going to get the path to citizenship is to agree to a tough border enforcement bill that's practical and workable, and i think we've got it. and listen, when it goes, we need to get at least 75 votes i think in the senate. so when it goes over to the house, two things have been stripped away. number one, an incredibly tough border security provision. and, number two, the cbos recent report, chris, that says this isn't going to cost us money. it's actually going to help reduce the federal deficit, this bill. those two things strip away any

excuse any of the conservatives -- >> i think it neutralizes that. put on your political analysis hat. marco rubio looked to be a guy trying to walk right across the line, in fact, along the firing line like in world war i. they're shooting at him from both sides. is he caught in the cross fire here by trying to be the dealmaker in his way? politically, is this going to kill him for the nomination for next time? >> no, other than the 11 million undocumenteds who win by the fact we're going to have a path to citizenship. marco rubio is the next big winner because this is a bill because it's now so tough on border security and because the cbo has said it won't cost us money, it will reduce the deficit, this is a bill that marco rubio can support, take pride in, and he can take that to 95% of the republican electorate. >> as always, smart. >> i think it's a big win, a big win. >> if it's a bill that works and we're proud of it a couple years from now. thank you, thank you governor ed rendell. make sure to check out our website for much more on this

tropic, including a look at what concessions democrats may be forced to make if they want a bill that's really going to get there, become law. go to tv.msnbc.com and click on "hardball." up next, an actor with a personal perspective on james gandolfini. they worked together every night. he will tell us what this guy we just lost was like as a person as well as an actor as well as an icon. this is "hardball," the place for politics. la's known definitely for its traffic, congestion, for it's smog. but there are a lot of people that do ride the bus. they worked together every

they worked together every so i feel good. i feel like i'm doing my part to help out the environment.

back with more coming up here on the death of the sopranos star james gandolfini. actor jeff daniels worked with gandolfini on broadway. he will join us on "hardball" in just a minute. this day calls you.

to fight chronic osteoarthritis pain. to fight chronic low back pain. to take action. to take the next step. today, you will know you did something for your pain. cymbalta can help. cymbalta is a pain reliever fda-approved to manage chronic musculoskeletal pain. one non-narcotic pill a day, every day, can help reduce this pain. tell your doctor right away if your mood worsens, you have unusual changes in mood or behavior or thoughts of suicide. anti-depressants can increase these in children, teens, and young adults. cymbalta is not for children under 18. people taking maois, linezolid or thioridazine or with uncontrolled glaucoma should not take cymbalta. taking it with nsaid pain relievers, aspirin, or blood thinners may increase bleeding risk. severe liver problems, some fatal, were reported. signs include abdominal pain and yellowing skin or eyes. tell your doctor about all your medicines, including those for migraine and while on cymbalta, call right away if you have

high fever, confusion and stiff muscles or serious allergic skin reactions like blisters, peeling rash, hives, or mouth sores to address possible life-threatening conditions. talk about your alcohol use, liver disease and before you reduce or stop cymbalta. dizziness or fainting may occur upon standing. take the next step. talk to your doctor. cymbalta can help. we're back. of course you know james gandolfini for his iconic role as mob boss tony soprano but his talent wasn't confined to the tv screen. back in 2009 four years ago james starred in the highly acclaimed broadway show "god of carnage," you see a picture of

it. only four actors, all four of them nominated for tony awards. jeff daniels reacted to today's news about gandolfini saying if broadway has a version of a guy you want in your foxhole, james foxhole, james gandolfini was mine. during our time together in "the god of carnage", we played 320 performances together. he didn't miss one. sadly, i now miss him like a brother. jeff daniels joins us now from new york. he is a legend in the business himself and star of hbo's "the newsroom" which has its season premier on sunday, july 14th. talk about -- i'm always fascinated when i meet people like you. i've watched, been charmed by you on the screen and in theater. and you meet the person and you go what is he like? because we never get to meet them that way. >> you know, we live in a world where what is the bad stuff, what is the negative that sells papers and tabloids and things like that. jim, jim had a generosity that was as big as new jersey.

he -- there are countless stories, whether it's on "the sopranos" or whether it's "god of carnage" that he would do stuff for us. i remember when we extended, and jim got the play done. that's the only reason we were on broadway. and when we extended, jim's first thing was everybody gets paid the same or i don't do it. >> wow. >> he did things like that constantly. it was so brave of him to come to broadway. that's the proving ground. a lot of film actors can't do it. it's eight times a week. it's tough to make it look like it's happening for the first time month after month after month. i think there was part of jim that looked at "sopranos" as this cooped of i don't want to be a one-hit wonder. and i'm a big star, but am i good actor. and he bravely came to broadway with "god of carnage" to prove to himself that he was a good actor. and it was a joy for the four of us, for mar sharks hope and

myself in particular to kind of watch him feel good about what he did as an actor. and i know by the end of it, we walked off stage. and i said you did it. and you could see in his eyes that, yeah, i did. i did it. and that -- now he wasn't just a star. now he was a good actor in his own mind. and that was one of the many things i'll remember about him. >> wow. i'm always amazed at you guys when you do broadway. friday nights, saturday afternoon, saturday night and then sunday. don't forget tuesday, wednesday, wednesday and thursday either. >> it's just work. >> it's brutal, it's brutal. >> let me ask you about what you're doing with "newsroom." my son has a part on that show. not as large as years, of course. you're the man on the show. you play a guy kind of a little like keith olbermann, maybe little like me, maybe other people in news business. what is it going to be like coming out starting this sunday? it's the most organic show i've ever watched. it seems to come out of itself every week.

it seems to grow like a human being. and that makes it so unpredictable and fascinating to people. >> i think one of the things that is unfair to us is that -- or any tv series in particular is that when you come in with season one, for all of us, erin, me, every actor, every designer, director, it's a first draft. we're guessing out there aaron doesn't know me. he doesn't know the characters as well as he will later on. will this work? will the story work? can i even do will? all that stuff kind of happens in the first season. we guessed right more than we guessed wrong, i think. but i know shooting the second season, which we just finished, it felt like our third or fourth. it was as if aaron and all of us walked on to the set at season two and said we got this. we know what this is now. thank you for allowing us the time to kind of find it. and we will continue to do that, like any show would. but with someone who is as

masterful at the art of storytelling as sorkin is, it's a joy to get there every day. because you never know what the next episode. you never know where he is going to take that story. and that's the mark of a good storyteller. >> i can't wait to see you and emily mortimer and of course sam waterston and jane fonda. what a cast. and i want to know what you end up saying about our business. every one of your shows is a statement about what you ought to be doing in this business, right? >> well, or the struggle that you guys face every day of do i -- you know, do we for number's sakes stay wicasey anthony or jodi arias or do we go after the stories that aren't going to pull the ratings, but they're better stories and more information and that's what we should be talking about. you guys fight that every day. and i think the show focuses more on that, andand frankly, we'rer not sitting on the set going what is fox or msnbc saying wrong today.

especially in season two, the struggle is ours, will and company, not yourself. >> its company you keep. are you good company? are you honest with people? and you give them something to take away. those are the keys to the shows. honesty and give people staubs to take aaaway? jeff dabbles, star of "newsroom" on sunday night. we'll be back right after this. what it's carrying, while using less fuel. delivering whatever the world needs, when it needs it. ♪ after all, what's the point of talking if you don't have something important to say? ♪ she's always been able someit's just her way.day.? but your erectile dysfunction - that could be a question of blood flow. cialis tadalafil for daily use helps you be ready anytime the moment's right. you can be more confident

in your ability to be ready. and the same cialis is the only daily ed tablet approved to treat ed and symptoms of bph, like needing to go frequently or urgently. tell your doctor about all your medical conditions and medications, and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sexual activity. do not take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain, as this may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. do not drink alcohol in excess with cialis. side effects may include headache, upset stomach, delayed backache or muscle ache. to avoid long-term injury, seek immediate medical help for an erection lasting more than four hours. if you have any sudden decrease or loss in hearing or vision, or if you have any allergic reactions such as rash, hives, swelling of the lips, tongue or throat, or difficulty breathing or swallowing, stop taking cialis and get medical help right away. ask your doctor about cialis for daily use and a 30-tablet free trial. [ female announcer ] some people like to pretend a flood could never happen to them. and that their homeowners insurance protects them. [ thunder crashes ]

it doesn't. stop pretending. only flood insurance covers floods. ♪ visit floodsmart.gov/pretend to learn your risk. [ male announcer ] moving object detection. ♪ blind spot warning. ♪ lane departure warning. safety, down to an art. the nissan altima with safety shield technologies. nissan. innovation that excites. ♪

let me finish tonight with

this. we have 11 million people living in this country illegally. they're here as a result of a failed immigration reform bill that passed in 1986. it failed because it gave amnesty to millions of people in this country already and promised to stop the flow of millions more. it broke that promise, of course, or rather the congress that passed that first immigration bill refused to enforce it. rather, it refused to make it enforceable. it had no teeth. it gave american employers no way of being sure a person looking for a job was the person he or she said they were. that immigration bill was, in other words, a joke. you can build all the fences you want, by the way. you can put guards every ten feet, and people will get into this country if there is a job waiting for them. i would, wouldn't you? my question about this bill, will it stop illegal immigration into our country? will it deal with the problem we have? the reason we have 11 million people living in this country illegally. they get quiet and seem to have so few words to say when that matter comes up. i'm suspicious about people stopping illegal immigration because i suspect this has become a cya operation politically.

parties trying to protect themselves politically, not protect the country legally. it's businesses trying to keep the door open for cheap labor. it's every push in the country, every pressure group in the country. i don't hear one person say with conviction -- i want congress to pass an immigration bill that they will be proud to fully and effectively enforce. if not, why ra they wasting our time passing another joke like they did back in 1986. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "politicsnation" with al sharpton starts right now. thanks, chris, and thanks to you for tuning in. i'm live tonight from washington, d.c. tonight's lead, a major development in the george zimmerman murder trial. after nearly two weeks of intense questioning, the jury has been chosen. six people and