you so much for your time. thank you, alex. i'm alex wagner, in for lawrence o'donnell, you can catch my show now weekdays, chris hayes is up next. tony. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews down in washington. let me start tonight with this, they are the american icons. we see in them something of ourselves, our times, our struggles, even our dreams. in the aftermath of world war ii, it was all about aspiration, of new doors opening, but also of old traditions being honored. our american icons were willie mays and mickey mantle. then thing began to get a little looser, a lot wilder, and along came elvis presley.

in the 1960s our eyes looked to the stars, of the very notion of jackie kennedy. in the 1970s it was a time of agitating the old, of testing the new, of archie bunker, and also coming in, michael jackson. and as the century moved to its conclusion with the economy booming, it was madonna, the material girl, and then bruce springsteen, and in the early 21st century, this century of ours in the aftermath of 9/11, it was all about trying to hold things together, especially our families, and our american icon became a husband, a father, a guy from jersey, a crime boss. his name, tony soprano. james lipton is the host of bravo's "inside the actors studio," and paul farhi is with "the washington post." james gandolfini's portrayal of tony soprano, there was one bedrock of truth of everything he did. he was just a family guy trying to hold everything together. in an early first season episode, he was on a car trip to visit prospective colleges with his daughter, who confronts him about his line of work.

let's listen. >> are you in the mafia? >> am i in the what? >> whatever you want to call it. organized crime. >> that's total crap. who told you that? >> dad, i have lived in the house all my life. i have seen police come with warrants. i have seen you going out at 3:00 in the morning. >> so you've never seen doc go out at 3:00 in the morning a call? >> did they ever find $350,000 in krugerrands and a .45 automatic when they were hunting for easter eggs? >> i'm in the waste management business. it's a stereotype, and it's offensive. you're the last person i would want to perpetuate it. >> fine. >> and tony soprano is trying to hold his marriage together, certainly this clip shows tony and his wife carmela on their way home from their first marriage therapy session. let's listen. >> what? right. i'm the one that doesn't [ bleep ] communicate?

>> you want to know what's wrong? after 19 years of marriage, i find it very sad that we have to pay someone to teach us how to interact. >> you were all in favor. >> wow. even tony soprano's relationship with his mother is always threatening to get out of control. at least in this scene he confronts her on a hospital gurney for trying to have him whacked. the mother trying to have the son killed. let's listen. >> i have the tapes ma, the [ bleep ] tapes. don't tell me you don't know what we're talking about. >> hey! >> george clooney, don't get in the middle of this. uncle june is in jail now, and i have one more detail i have to take care of. >> mr. soprano. >> [ bleep ] ma. i am going to live a nice long, happy life, which is more than i can say for you. >> all right, that's enough. >> keep her moving. keep moving. >> i try to do the right thing by you. you try to have me whacked. >> that is so unbelievable. his mother being rolled away in the gurney, tried to get him killed. and he says okay, george clooney, which is an old italian

street thing, which is calling everybody a big shot, queen latifah or something, that is so richly ethnic. >> that's why we loved the guy. because he seems so able to relate to all of the problems that we all have. we're trying to keep our family together, we're trying to keep our business together, we're trying to succeed with all these pressures coming after us, including our mother issues, including our work issues, and all the family problems we have. it was weird to be able to put together this sociopath with all of the things that we relate to as regular people. >> james lipton, you know james gandolfini. i know james tarantino too. james gandolfini, this guy died young the other day over in italy at the age of 51 of a heart attack. it must have been a terrible heart attack. he didn't make it. he was alive getting to the hospital, but he didn't make it there. this character he was able to create for all of us and for all time, how could he be a guy we loved but a guy that was a killer?

>> because he was such a wonderful actor. that was the secret of that role. he played in two families. in one family he was the victim, always the victim. and he was always on the defensive, and we felt sorry for him. we began to root for him the way we used to root for w.c. fields when kids would throw bricks at him. and then the other family, he was the killer, and that was the miracle that david chase made, and that was the miracle that gandolfini was able to bring to life for him. he was able to live both sides of that wall, and they were not ancipital. he turned them into one human being who we understood no matter what he was doing, killing or being killed. >> they say critics -- you're a critic, and james is a theater expert, but i don't think people came out of that watching tony soprano saying i want to be a gangster. >> no. >> they came out of it saying i want to be a better dad. i want to be a better person. i want to get through it.

yes, paul. >> yeah, well, i mean it was in some ways the american dream. we all want to be achieving. we all want to be striving. we all want to have the things that tony soprano was trying to get, and yet by our character, by our flaws, we are held back, and that was the kind of message. >> but he didn't live like some big shot. he lived better off than most people. that was a nice house his wife lived in. the wife was well taken care of. but he wasn't sitting around like some big shot. it's interesting these mob characters sitting around in some little house in florida with linoleum on the floor eating tuna fish sandwiches and watching the ball game. what is this about mobsters where they don't really live like pooh-bahs? >> the thing about him is he was so troubled and he had so many issues and so many things, that his success was never really realized or achieved. he always had this sense that he was going to be a tragic hero or, you know, a hero or an anti-hero who would never get

where he was going. >> and powerless at home. >> absolutely. and as powerful as he was in his work life in the mob life, he had to deal with the same things that everybody has to deal with, the wife, the children's troubles. et cetera. >> james, i love the scene when the daughter, meadow, he's in the kitchen, the daughter comes in and walks past him like he's not even there, like the kids are quite good at that when they want to do that. you aren't there. and he couldn't do a thing about it. >> remember something about this show. i think one of the master strokes of "the sopranos" was that he went into analysis. what did the analysis do? it is the precise equivalent of the shakespearean soliloquy. it allows us to listen to his thoughts. that i thought was the most brilliant thing of all the brilliant things that david chase did. when he sat down in front of his analyst and began to talk, we were literally listening to the equivalent of a shakespearean soliloquy. >> was it all chase who came up

with this, the idea of a neurotic guy who knew he needed therapy but a guy who was willing to kill people with his bare hands? >> well, chase comes out of new jersey, comes out of an italian background. in some ways, and he has said this before, it was autobiographical, not obviously the mafia aspects of it, but the family dynamics and the cultural references and the struggles that tony soprano had every time. >> so i wonder, i wonder, james, theater is your business and politics is my obsession, i guess. if we had politicians that could evoke this kind of personality obviously without being criminals, i think we'd have a lot more popular politicians. i think clinton had a piece of this. i think we always knew clinton's problems. he was the most transparent guy ever to be president. all his problems were human problems, and we knew what they were no matter what he said, and yet people today really look back on him with tremendous affection. >> we like a little evil in people. it's one of the most -- it's true. it's one of the most attractive

qualities that a person can have. we like to know that someone is vulnerable, that someone is evil. why? because we're vulnerable and evil. we like to know these people are like us, and tony soprano was like us. >> here is some reaction to this. he died -- you get older and you realize how young 51 is. here is the reaction from the new jersey political community. first of all, governor chris christie said in his statement james gandolfini was a fine actor, a rutgers alum and a true jersey guy. i was a huge fan of his and the character he played so authentically. tony soprano. i have gotten to know jimmy and many of the other actors in "the sopranos" cast, and i think each of them are an individual new jersey treasure. cory booker, running for the senate now, my condolences to the family and all those who loved the james gandolfini family. a true nj great and original. it's interesting that we're concerned that italians are portrayed certainly unfairly as all crooks, but certainly you have the mafia as a reality. and it's accepted as a reality though it's obviously a minuscule subset of that

background. yet there is a lot of people got upset about this. i think rudy got upset about this in the beginning, and i don't know whether it was the anti-defamation league or the italian thing and all that, but for some reason this thing hasn't caused a stirring opposition by any community, especially the italian-american community. >> let me compare it to a very unlike show, which is "jersey shore." . >> exactly. >> which perpetrated every stereotype about italian americans. and the criticism was unrelenting on that show. the reason why "the sopranos" didn't get the same kind of criticism is because that wasn't the only thing you saw. you saw so much more. you saw the humanity in people. >> the good wife. >> the good wife. the family dynamics, the cultural aspects of it that made it so much more than just a stereotype. >> this is a clip here of james gandolfini's appearance on "inside the actor's studio" with james. it answers the program's signature question. let's listen. >> if heaven exists, what would you like to hear god say when you arrive at the pearly gates?

>> take over for a while, i'll be right back. no, no. no, no, no. >> that's it. no, no, no. >> you dare not change it. it's too good. >> think of the possibilities. >> james, every time i meet an actor i am in love with and think is great and you meet them and realize, somebody once said this of cary grant, you met cary grant and you wish you hadn't met him because he isn't cary grant. nobody can be cary grant in real life, because you need a line, a great moment, you need a scene. you need a camera. what was he like as opposed to his character? >> are you talking about cary grant or james gandolfini? >> let's go with the more immediate question. james gandolfini. >> what was he like? he was absolutely what you see on the screen there. he was himself. he was never anything but himself. >> you mean in your show, on your show. >> that's correct. >> that's right. remember that my show is a master class and a master's degree program at pace university. he was there to teach, and he taught our students -- we've

been on 19 years. we just did our 250th episode, and rarely in the 19 years has anybody brought as much technique and craft to our stage as that man did. he was trained for two years by sanford meisner's people, and he gave our students a lesson in acting that was -- olivier couldn't have done better. pacino didn't do better. de niro didn't do better. gandolfini was right up there with him. those two things were combined in him, technique and talent. >> he's going to be missed, and i can't wait to read you tomorrow, paul, and hear more from you, james lipton. i think everybody was shocked by this. taken away from us too early, way too early. what a great and i mean it, icon. we don't have many icons in this country. they come along once or twice a decade. tony soprano, for better or worse, in sickness and in health, was our guy. any way, thank you. coming up -- thank you, paul, and thank you, james. >> i hope he does take over up there. wouldn't that be nice. >> well, let's consider that in another program.

anyway, how far off the rails are the nra right now? they're attacking west virginia senator joe manchin, a gun toting guy. with a bill, they went after him. what do they want? they helped write the bill he came up with, which was on background checks to keep the people who should never have a gun from getting one, and then they jumped him. he's talking back to them tonight. really in real tough tonight with him, joe manchin. plus, call it the border surge. like in the military down in afghanistan. senators bob corker and john hoeven of north dakota in that case have a plan to toughen up border security and win over more of their gop colleagues. but it turns out the first casualty of this war might be one of their colleagues, marco rubio. might be getting hurt by this support for immigration reform. and here is a character for your political pantheon. bishop e.w. jackson, a republican running for lieutenant governor in virginia. he strikes again. he says while slavery was bad for the african-american family, lyndon johnson's great society was worse. talk about hyperbole. let me finish with the goal

of an honest, please god, an honest immigration law, one we can be proud to enforce. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

you're going to love this. barack obama famously said there aren't red states or blue states in this country, just the united states. but as president he hasn't quite lived up to that hopeful rhetoric. take a look at this map. this map shows the six states, there they are, that the president has never set foot in, never set foot in while president. no surprise they're all deep red states. and here is another seven the president has only visited once in all the time he has been president in five years, the green one there's. by contrast, president obama has visited the swing state of colorado, guess what, 19 times. he has been to florida 30 times. and he has traveled to ohio 39 times. and he won all three of those states in both of his elections. we'll be right back.

welcome back to "hardball." one week ago today, the national rifle association turned on one of its own, an a-rated lawmaker out there, senator joe manchin of west virginia with this tough ad. >> remember this tv ad? >> i'm joe manchin. i approve this ad because i will always defend west virginia. as your senator, i'll protect our second amendment rights. >> that was joe manchin's commitment, but now manchin is working with president obama and new york mayor michael bloomberg. concerned? you should be. tell senator manchin to honor his commitment to the second amendment. >> well, senator manchin did not leave that challenge unanswered, and today he fired back with an ad of his own. >> i'm joe manchin, and i approve this message to bring common sense to washington. i am a lifetime nra member, but i don't walk in lockstep with the nra's washington leadership, this administration, or any special interest group.

west virginia, you know me. i haven't changed, and you know i have always fought for our gun rights. i believe we can protect the second amendment and make our community safer. i think most law-abiding gun owners agree with me. call the nra and tell them to support criminal background checks. >> as you see, manchin's there fighting back, which is the only way to compete with the washington lobby. and perhaps without even realizing it, he followed how politics is really played. chapter seven of "hardball" is titled "leave no shot unanswered." welcome and thank you for joining us. i think what you're doing here is so important in life, it's about character, it's about personal reputation, and a man or woman must defend their reputation. when some people out there from washington, paid lobbyists, go out after you because you dared to be independent and to develop what i think is a very centrist position on gun safety, they couldn't stand it that you look good, so here they are throwing

mud at you after the fight's -- at least the initial battle is over. >> yeah. >> why do you think they decide to go after you after the skirmish, after they won on that vote on the background check? i think they shouldn't have won, but why did they come back at you and why do you think they did that? >> chris, i think they're afraid that this is not going away, and they're correct, it's not going away. it makes so much sense. law-abiding gun owners like myself basically have the premise that we're not going to sell to a stranger. we're not going to give it to someone who is mentally deranged. we're not going to sell it to a family member who is not responsible. so it only makes sense if you go to a gun show, commercial, or go online, since i'm that law-abiding gun owner, i don't want someone to get the gun i don't know who they are. that makes sense, and they knew sooner or later that they couldn't continue to keep telling the law-abiding nra members like me that what they were saying isn't true.

and that's what it's coming down to. >> let's talk about the road forward. i think you have shown you have your dukes up and everybody knows you're a rifleman and you know how to clean a gun, you know how to get the bullet out. and everything. you're shooting that shell out of there. i was impressed by that. let's talk about the future. it seems to me it's hard, you tell me if i'm wrong, you have four democrats and all the republicans voting the other way. they didn't want gun safety on this, they didn't want background checks on people that go to gun shows. crazy people can show up at a gun show. let's talk about what worked. it's hard to get people to change their minds, those four people and any other republicans. is there another route there where you could go for what they tried to do that also didn't pass, the gun trafficking effort that got up to 58 votes. is there a way to outflank the nra and win a big one or not? >> where we are, chris, right now, there's 45 senators that did not vote for this. for whatever reason. and, you know, i'm talking and still working and all that, and i want to make sure that any concerns they might have, clarifications that are needed,

will be there. the biggest help we can do and the biggest help i can have right now is for all groups to be able to just go into these states where we have senators that did not vote for it and try to educate the populace there, their constituents. if we have gun owners, law-abiding gun owners, that know that not only do we not try to infringe on their rights, we improved, we protected and improved their second amendment rights, but with a law-abiding gun owner, we have responsibilities, too, and that is to make sure that the wrong people don't get guns. if you're crazy, if you're a criminal, and if you're a terrorist, we don't want you to have them. >> have you come across -- you don't have to tell me the names, but have you come across any senators on the republican side or the four democrats that has said to you, if you'd only done this thing, i could have been with you, and what is that thing they wanted changed? >> you know, there's a lot of talk going on. there's an awful lot of people that know -- on both sides that voted against that know this makes common sense, but have they been pushed into a position

where they can't retreat, and you know the dynamics of politics better than most. with that being said, chris, there's an awful lot of people that haven't said much at all. a lot of people you haven't heard from that haven't been identified. and if their constituents have comfort, have an understanding that this bill not only preserves but it protects and it enhances their rights and all they're asked to do is make sure when you go to a gun show you know who you're selling your gun to, if someone calls you or identifies you online, you know who they are, that's not too much to ask, and law-biding gun owners, nra members like me, there's 4 million-plus nra members, and i guarantee you most of them feel like i do. the leadership in washington has left them. >> this is so important. i have watched your arguments on this on television. i have seen it in the ad again today. wayne lapierre, he's a famous guy, we know who he is, he's a tough gun guy. i think he's moved further to the right than he ever was before. but how does that distinguish him, there he is in the picture there, how does that compare to

the guys you meet and the women you meet in your state of west virginia who are gun owners and members of the nra? do they see him as a distinctive figure on his own or do they see him as a leader? what is it? >> the people of west virginia the nra members, the people in west virginia are just pure, sincere law-abiding gun owners. they don't have a commercial interest. they don't have a $1 million salary. they don't have all the fringes that come with the trappings of washington. with that being said, what they're trying to do is basically look at this and make sense. when they start seeing what we've done to the bill, you know what they said? and you mean the nra in washington is against this? we've been fighting for some of these provisions for the last decade or more. and i said all -- i said, guess what? in 1999 the nra leadership in washington, pretty much the same people, were for this. i haven't changed. they changed, chris. >> congratulations, senator. you're doing something i believe people have to do in politics.

if somebody is bad mouthing you, you have to straighten that story out so your friends will know you're right, they'll understand where you're coming from, and they won't believe the bs being thrown at them. i wish mr. obama, the president, who i really like and support, would do more of this when it came to things like irs. thank you so much, senator joe manchin. >> thank you for having me. >> who has responded to the bad stories. up next, virginia's republican candidate for lieutenant governor, this guy, what a character. he strikes again. will this guy cost his party the election down there in the old dominion? this is "hardball," the place for politics.

so wof the house?hink it's got a great kitchen, but did you see the school rating? oh, you're right. hey babe, i got to go. bye daddy! ...but what about when my parents visit? ok. i just love this one... and it's next to a park i love it i love it too. here's our new house... daddy! you're not just looking for a house. you're looking for a place for your life to happen. zillow

back to "hardball." now to the "sideshow." first as the g-8 summit in germany comes to a close, david letterman took a look back at some memorable speeches from u.s. presidents in that country, and then some.

>> we put together a collection of memorable presidential speeches that took place in germany at the brandenburg gate, and we're going to show them to you. i think it will bring back quite a few memories. >> june 26, 1963. >> as a free man, i take pride in the words ich bin ein berliner. >> june 12th, 1987. >> mr. gorbachev, tear down this wall. >> july 31st, 2006. >> last night jeb and i had some crabs with like members of the 1972 miami dolphins. dan marino and his really dynamic wife. >> well, in fairness to "w," that last one was obviously not made in germany. next, bishop e.w. jackson strikes again. virginia's republican candidate for lieutenant governor has been snatching up headlines in recent

weeks for his long history of controversial comments. among other things, he's compared planned parenthood to the kkk and suggested yoga could lead people at risk of being possessed by satan. hey, why not? here is jackson speaking about government welfare programs at an event just yesterday. >> i'm telling you that slavery did not destroy the black family, even though it certainly was an attack on the black family. it made it difficult, but i'll tell you that the programs began in the '60s, the programs that began to tell women you don't need a man in the home, the government will take care of you, that began to tell men, you don't need to be in the home, the government will take care of this woman and take care of these children, that's when the black family began to deteriorate. by now, by this time, we have only 20% of black children being raised in two-parent, monogamous families with a married man and woman raising those children. it wasn't slavery that did that.

it was government that did that. >> okay. why didn't he just say that welfare does run the danger of possibly killing self-reliance? that's an argument that some people can make. why muck it up, as he did, by comparing it to slavery? anyway, by the way, ken cuccinelli, the republican candidate for governor in virginia, would not weigh in on jackson's remarks when asked about them today. well, obviously he doesn't want to be touched by them. next, here is a question. what's one of the worst possible places to launch and carry out a congressional campaign? well, ask steven nodine, a former alabama county commissioner who is considering a run for the united states congress. he happens to be serving out right now a two-year prison sentence on charges of perjury and harassment. that's not stopping him. in an e-mail he said he knows some will be skeptical of my interest in this congressional race after wrongfully being accused of crimes, drug abuse and personal mistakes. i have the determination, experience, and the fortitude to serve as your u.s. congressman

for the first congressional district. since he wouldn't be able to hold any in-person campaign events, nodine says he would focus on social media. the race will be a special election to fill the seat of joe bonner, who plans to resign in august. an election date has not yet been set. finally, the latest from our "sideshow" regular, the inimitable republican louis gohmert of texas. this time it's nothing to do with president obama's birth certificate or the muslim brotherhood infiltrating the administration. yesterday think progress asked the congressman a question on the nondiscrimination nation act which would prevent employers from firing someone simply because they're gay. here is gohmert's reaction. quote, who wants to go talking about sexual orientation when they're working? good grief. apparently he's only talking there about gay people. because i put this to you, what straight person fails to mention occasionally his or her spouse at work? nobody. coming up, will republicans go along with immigration reform

if border security is strengthened and will marco rubio's presidential ambitions survive this fight over immigration reform? that's coming up next. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics.

welcome back to "hardball." of course, border surge, that's what the senators are calling a new border security plan authorized by republicans bob corker of tennessee and john hoeven of north dakota. it's being hailed as the grand bargain, the big compromise just agreed to, or almost anyway. it's already being blessed by the gang of eight, and it's attracting conservative voices on the issue like senator mark kirk, a republican from illinois who was considered one of the bill's biggest critics. what's in the surge? let's take a look right now. it would double the size of the border patrol along the mexican/american border adding 20,000 new agents. 350 miles of new fencing in addition to 350 already there and already covered. it would strengthen the e-verify system for employers to make sure their workers are legal. we should note those would all need to be set up before anyone could get a green card. and it would require a 90%

removal rate for immigrants who overstay their visas. senator corker spoke about the plan earlier today on msnbc. let's listen to senator corker. >> for people who are concerned about border security, once they see what is in this bill, it's almost overkill, peter. i think if that's the issue that people have, i think everyone working together have come up with a way to deal with that issue. so i do hope that we can send it over to the house. >> well, senator lindsey graham, a key architect of the bill in this senate, has voiced his support as well for this new amendment saying, it's, quote, an overwhelming effort to secure our border short of shooting anybody who comes across. that's strong language. joining us is the co-author of the border surge, senator john hoeven, republican in north dakota. senator, thank you so much. you were a governor, so i have great confidence in you as an executive. and sometimes i think legislators don't know what they're talking about. they pass bills, they don't become effective, they don't

have any teeth, they don't work, and we call them reform bills, and 20 years later we're passing another reform bill because the first one was a joke. on immigration reform you know what went wrong in the 1986 bill. it never got enforced. we got amnesty without any border control, no employer sanctions. why should a skeptic believe that this time the congress with the support of hispanic groups, with the support of liberals and moderates, is willing to get tough and really pass a law we're proud to enforce? >> chris, good to be with you, and you were out in north dakota when i was governor and got a chance to visit with you then. look, this bill focuses on making sure we secure the border first. that's what it's all about. you mentioned a lot of the things that are in the bill. what we provide is we secure the border so we're not back in this situation where we have millions of illegal immigrants in this country ten years down the road. that's what it's all about. that's why it strengthens this comprehensive immigration reform

effort. >> some people are skeptical of this bill because of the people behind it. you keep hearing from, for example, the organized hispanic community, and fair enough, they're concerned about people here illegally and they're trying to get them on a path to legality, and it's a wonderfully worthwhile purpose. but are they also supportive, as you see it, is the bill supportive of the other side of the equation, stopping the problem from getting worse? >> absolutely. we put a $3.2 billion high-tech strategic plan right in the legislation. that must be deployed. that must be operational on the border in addition to 20,000 additional border patrol agents, 700 miles of fencing, and e-verify system and an entry/exit system at all of our international airports and seaports before anyone could get a green card. and so this is about border security first, which is why it should bring people together to -- it's what the american people want, and we should get a bipartisan vote to pass the

legislation. >> so you're running a construction company perhaps up in north dakota, perhaps down near the border around arizona. you have 25 people you have working for you, and a new guy comes looking for a job, and you suspect he's probably from across the border or he comes from a background you think might be a problem. you don't know. so you want to make sure you haven't hired somebody illegally. how under this system can you be sure you're not breaking the law and be sure you have a good person here, a good authorized person to be in the country and you're solid on the law. how do you be sure of that under your bill? >> because employers are required to use the e-verify system. you're absolutely on the right subject. it's not just about securing the border, it's also about taking away the incentive to come here illegally. you do that with e-verify and a proper guest worker program so the people that come don't want to come because they can't get a job because we'll catch them with e-verify if they can get across our secure border, which they won't be able to, and you have a guest worker program so they can come legally and go back home.

>> you sound like a great man, senator, governor, as good a title as well. but senator john hoeven, thank you, from north dakota. i hope you follow with that consistency right through the conference. i don't want to see any hanky-panky in the conference. where it's watered down and jammed through the house. this has to be a bill we're proud to enforce for the next 50 years. any way, thank you so much for joining us and good luck with it. joining us now is ed rendell, former governor of pennsylvania. governor, it sounds like he's on the right track. it sounds like a tough proposal. i'm wondering whether the liberal side of this equation will accept what looks to be a darn tough approach to enforcement. >> i think we will, chris, for two reasons. number one, because it took away the requirement that we reach 90% apprehension of anybody who tries to get across the border. it turns that into a goal. that's very important because the 90% figure was in some ways, particularly early on, unattainable or undocumentable. so i think that would have --

that was in the cornyn amendment, and that was a poison pill. you took away that. this is almost overkill, senator corker said that himself, but senator corker is a good man, and i know john hoeven from the time we served as governors together. he's a very good man. i think this bill is necessary. we want the path to citizenship. the only way realistically we're going to get the path to citizenship is to agree to a tough border enforcement bill that's practical and workable, and i think we've got it. and listen, when it goes -- we need to get at least 75 votes i think in the senate. so when it goes over to the house, two things have been stripped away. number one, an incredibly tough border security provision. and, number two, the cbo's recent report, chris, that says this isn't going to cost us money. it's actually going to help reduce the federal deficit, this bill. those two things strip away any excuse any of the conservatives -- >> i think it neutralizes that. put on your political analysis hat. marco rubio looked to be a guy trying to walk right across the

line, in fact along the firing line like in world war i. they're shooting at him from both sides. is he caught in the crossfire here by trying to be the dealmaker in his way? politically, is this going to kill him for the nomination for next time? >> no. other than the 11 million undocumenteds who win by the fact we're going to have a path to citizenship, marco rubio is the next big winner because this is a bill because it's now so tough on border security and because the cbo has said it won't cost us money, it will reduce the deficit, this is a bill that marco rubio can support, take pride in, and he can take that to 95% of the republican electorate. >> as always, smart. >> i think it's a big win, a big win. a big win for marco rubio. >> if it's a bill that works and we're proud of it a couple years from now. thank you, thank you, governor ed rendell from pennsylvania. make sure to check out our website for much more on this tropic, including a look at what concessions democrats may be forced to make if they want a bill that's really going to get there, become law. go to tv.msnbc.com and click on "hardball."

up next, an actor with a personal perspective on james gandolfini, jeff daniels. of course he is the star of "newsroom", but he also starred on broadway with gandolfini. they worked together every night. he will tell us what this guy we just lost was like as a person as well as an actor as well as an actor, as well as an icon. this is "hardball," the place for politics. we got adt because i walked in on a burglary once.

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back with more coming up here on the death of "the sopranos" star james gandolfini. actor jeff daniels worked with gandolfini on broadway. he will join us on "hardball" in just a minute.

we're back. of course, you know james gandolfini for his iconic role as mob boss tony soprano, but his talent wasn't confined to the tv screen. not which a long shot. back in 2009, four years ago, james starred in the highly acclaimed broadway show "god of carnage," you see a picture of it there. it was an intimate cast, only four actors. all four of them were nominated for tony awards. jeff daniels, one of his co-stars on that show reacted to today's news about gandolfini, saying if broadway has a version of a guy you want in your foxhole, james gandolfini was mine. during our time together in "the god of carnage," we played 320 performances together.

he didn't miss one. sadly, i now miss him like a brother. jeff daniels joins us now from new york. he is a legend in the business himself, and star of hbo's the newsroom, which has its season premier on sunday, july 14th. so talk about -- i'm always fascinated when i meet people like you. only four actors, all four of them nominated for tony awards. jeff daniels joins us now from he is a legend in the business himself and star of hbo's "the i've watched, been charmed by you on the screen and in theater. and you meet the person and you go what is he like? because we never get to meet them that way. >> you know, we live in a world where what is the bad stuff, what is the negative that sells papers and tabloids and things like that. jim, jim had a generosity that was as big as new jersey. he -- there are countless stories, whether it's on "the sopranos" or whether it's "god of carnage" that he would do stuff for us. i remember when we extended, and jim got the play done. that's the only reason we were on broadway. and when we extended, jim's first thing was everybody gets paid the same or i don't do it.

>> wow. >> he did things like that constantly. it was so brave of him to come to broadway. that's the proving ground. a lot of film actors can't do it. it's eight times a week. it's tough to make it look like it's happening for the first time month after month after month. i think there was part of jim that looked at "sopranos" as this cooped of i don't want to be a one-hit wonder. and i'm a big star, but am i good actor. and he bravely came to broadway with "god of carnage" to prove to himself that he was a good actor. and it was a joy for the four of us, for mar sharks hope and myself in particular to kind of watch him feel good about what he did as an actor. and i know by the end of it, we walked off stage. and i said you did it. and you could see in his eyes that, yeah, i did. i did it. and that -- now he wasn't just a star. now he was a good actor in his own mind.

and that was one of the many things i'll remember about him. >> wow. i'm always amazed at you guys when you do broadway. friday nights, saturday afternoon, saturday night and then sunday. >> don't forget tuesday, wednesday, wednesday and thursday either. >> it's just work. >> it's brutal, it's brutal. >> let me ask you about what you're doing with "newsroom." my son has a part on that show. not as large as years, of course. you're the man on the show. you play a guy kind of a little like keith olbermann, maybe little like me, maybe other people in news business. what is it going to be like coming out starting this sunday? it's the most organic show i've ever watched. it seems to come out of itself every week. it seems to grow like a human being. and that makes it so unpredictable and fascinating to people. >> i think one of the things that is unfair to us is that -- or any tv series in particular is that when you come in with season one, for all of us, aaron, me, every actor, every designer, director, it's a first

draft. we're guessing out there aaron doesn't know me. he doesn't know the characters as well as he will later on. will this work? will the story work? can i even do will? all that stuff kind of happens in the first season. we guessed right more than we guessed wrong, i think. but i know shooting the second season, which we just finished, it felt like our third or fourth. it was as if aaron and all of us walked on to the set at season two and said we got this. we know what this is now. thank you for allowing us the time to kind of find it. and we will continue to do that, like any show would. but with someone who is as masterful at the art of storytelling as sorkin is, it's a joy to get there every day. because you never know what the next episode. you never know where he is going to take that story. and that's the mark of a good storyteller. >> i can't wait to see you and emily mortimer and of course sam waterston and jane fonda. what a cast. and i want to know what you end up saying about our business.

every one of your shows is a statement about what you ought to be doing in this business, right? >> well, or the struggle that you guys face every day of do i -- you know, do we for number's sakes stay casey anthony or jodi arias or do we go after the stories that aren't going to pull the ratings, but they're better stories and more information and that's what we should be talking about. you guys fight that every day. and i think the show focuses more on that, and frankly, we're not sitting on the set going what is fox or msnbc saying wrong today. especially in season two, the struggle is ours, will and company, not yourself. >> its company you keep. are you good company? are you honest with people? and you give them something to take away. those are the keys to the shows. honesty and give people substance to take away? jeff dabbles, star of "newsroom" on sunday night.

we'll be back right after this.

let me finish tonight with this. we have 11 million people living in this country illegally. they're here as a result of a failed immigration reform bill that passed in 1986. it failed because it gave amnesty to millions of people in this country already and promised to stop the flow of millions more. it broke that promise, of course, or rather the congress that passed that first immigration bill refused to enforce it.

rather, it refused to make it enforceable. it had no teeth. it gave american employers no way of being sure a person looking for a job was the person he or she said they were. that immigration bill was, in other words, a joke. you can build all the fences you want, by the way. you can put guards every ten feet, and people will get into this country if there is a job waiting for them. i would, wouldn't you? my question about this bill, will it stop illegal immigration into our country? will it deal with the problem we have? the reason we have 11 million people living in this country illegally. they get quiet and seem to have so few words to say when that matter comes up. i'm suspicious about people stopping illegal immigration because i suspect this has become a cya operation politically. parties trying to protect themselves politically, not protect the country legally. it's businesses trying to keep the door open for cheap labor. it's every push in the country, every pressure group in the country. i don't hear one person say with conviction -- i want congress to pass an immigration bill that

they will be proud to fully and effectively enforce. if not, why are they wasting our time passing another joke like they did back in 1986. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. thank you for joining us. tonight on "all in", if you still possess the ability to be shocked by the corruption that crashed our economy, then you're going to be shocked by the report "rolling stone" has for us tonight. that's coming up. also a shocking turn of events on the house floor as the house speaker brings crucial legislation to the floor and watches it go down in flames. i'll tell you why what's bad for john boehner is good for the country.