if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." good sunday afternoon. i'm craig melvin. you're watching msnbc. here's what's happening right now. check out these amazing pictures. society split, violent, deadly demonstrations, on the anniversary of mohamed morsi's inauguration. we'll go live to egypt. also ahead -- >> mandela's spirit could never be imprisoned, because his legacy is here for all to see. >> reliving history. the first family visits the prison where nelson mandela was jailed for 18 years. we're live in africa with what's

next on president obama's historic and symbolic trip. and also, victory marches. the high court rulings are energizing gay pride events all over america today. we are live on both coasts. but we start in south africa, where, again, president obama's emotion-packed day included a visit to robin island where nelson mandela was in prison. right now, though, this is a live look in egypt. we'll go live there in just a moment. as you can see, there are hundreds of thousands who have shown up to protest mohamed morsi. but we start again, we start in africa. kristen welker, our white house correspondent, is traveling with the president. kristen, what's the very latest there? >> reporter: well, president obama wrapping up the keynote speech of this entire trip earlier today, craig. he addressed a crowd at cape town. a lot of university students as well as some invited guests,

some thought leaders, who really gave him a warm reception. he talked about, really challenged the audience, the next generation of south africans to move their country forward. he started his speech by talking about the importance and the legacy of nelson mandela, the fact that one person can have such a vast impact on his country. and of course, his remarks came after the president and the first family had toured robin island earlier today. and that is where nelson mandela was held 18 of the 27 years he was imprisoned here in south africa. so the president talking about the importance of the mandela legacy. he also talked about another hugely important historic figure, robert kennedy, who delivered his ripple of hope speech at the very same spot, at the university of cape town, back in 1966. it was really a speech against apartheid. it was right in the middle of the sill rights movement, so it was a highly emotionally charged

speech, and the president talking about individuals can make a difference. the big announcement today, craig, is that president obama said the united states would be partnering with six african nations to double the access that folks in subsaharan african have to electrical power. that was really one of the important comments that he made today. and he also talked about the importance of investing in food security. health, as you know, hiv aids is still a pressing problem here in this region. and it tied into his larger message which is that he wants to see the united states shift its relationship with africa with one that's based solely on aids that is mutually beneficial. >> kristen welker, live in capetown, south africa. kristen, thank you so much. back here, new signs this afternoon that the senate immigration bill could be dead on arrival in the house. let's get straight to the sunday brain trust.

angela, political strategist, and harry bacon jr., a political editor for the grio, and mike riggs, good to see all of you on a sunday. perry, let me start with you. virginia republican congressman, bob goodlatte, he told cnn this morning that the senate's path to citizenship to undocumented immigrants is simply not going to happen. >> you used the word pathway to legalization to citizenship? i would say yet. >> not to citizenship. you don't think it's something that ends -- >> not a special pathway to citizenship where people who are here unlawfully, but people who have worked for decades do not have. >> is the path to citizenship the biggest gripe for republicans in the house? >> it is. you heard two important words there, had esaid special path. most people would say there's not a special path being

created. also a path to legalization. that's what the house is like. i think you're hearing right now, speaker boehner's already said the house is in a different process, and has a different kind of bill. and goodlatte is the chairman of the committee that it would pass through. you can already hear a deep amount of skepticism. i think it means we're going to have a long process. president obama wants a bill through the house by the end of july. that's almost certainly not going to happen. >> illinois democrat, congressman lewis gutierrez, member of the judiciary committee, also the chair of the hispanic caucus. he talked about the prospect for compromise this morning. >> the breadth and depth of support which exists for comprehensive immigration reform is greater than i've seen on any other issue. yet, the one people unwilling to compromise and sit down with democrats, yes, the chairman has a solution, but it's not a bipartisan solution, so it's a

solution that's going to lead us to nothing. to unresolved dilemmas and problems. >> pretty pessimistic view there. angela, what is it going to take to bring bipartisan cooperation to the house? >> i think common-sense solutions, craig. as you mentioned, luis gutierrez is on the task force for immigration. these are issues he knows very, very well. he is working in a bipartisan manner with conservatives. in some ways the gop has got to say the rest of the country is ready to move forward on comprehensive immigration solutions. and whether it's called legalization or citizenships, these folks still have to pay their taxes to the united states is ridiculous. so speaker boehner is saying he wants to take a piecemeal approach to moving immigration forward. and the senate has demonstrated, even with all of the challenges that they face, that 68 votes

are necessary to make this immigration bill go forward. so there's no reason for the house not to afford a similar manner. >> i want to talk about something that broke a few hours ago. new reports on the scope of nsa surveillance on u.s. allies, the german magazine reporting today that the document suggests in addition to installing bugs in downtown washington, d.c., the european union representation's computer network was also infill created. eu officials are furious over there, demanding explanations from the american authorities. how harmful to u.s. relations will these surveillance programs eventually prove to be, mike? >> i think the fact that this is coming out, and remember a few weeks ago, that we had learned there was collaboration between the uk and america to bug diplomats at the g-8 summit. i'm not sure that it will be

harmful. i do wonder if someone strategically like snowden and those he collaborates with, that any change in the u.s. surveillance program, there's going to have to be some sort of international pressure. because americans just aren't interested in toning it down. but also, we're allies with these people. we're friends. we cooperate, we collaborate. and yet there seems to be some big distrust, at least on our part. and we're attacking them. i'm not sure it would be harmful per se, but i do think this sort of ups the pressure from just americans who are concerned about being spied on, now with partners internationally who want to know why we feel the need to do this. >> ecuador's president said that edward snowden is not free to travel to ecuador. and that the ecuadorean consulate in moscow made a, quote, serious error. this is his words, serious error when he issued a letter of passage for snowden.

does snowden ever return to this country, perry? and should he return to this country? >> i think he may return to this country unwillingly. i think he'll be brought back in some kind of extradition process and the u.s. will prosecute him. should he legally be forced to come here? probably, because he did violate the law. does he end up becoming a hero or traitor? that's ultimately a discussion that will keep going. i think there are people who will, if he comes back to america or brought back by force, there will be people who will be very pleased he revealed these programs. >> perry bacon jr., mike riggs, the brain trust is going to come back in a few minutes. see you guys then. we continue to follow major developments in egypt. you are looking at a live picture in cairo. as you can see, hundreds of thousands of anti-government

protesters have packed cairo city's tahir square to force mohamed morsi out of office on the one-year anniversary of his inauguration. our man in egypt, live in cairo, where i'm told the crowds continue to swell. and ayman, i remember morsi campaigning on the promise if it was called for his ouster, he would leave office. has his position on that changed? >> reporter: no, not at all. in fact, president mohamed morsi is as defiant as he has ever been, saying that calls for his ouster would be tantamount to a coup on his legitimacy. the way he and his supporters have interpreted the protests is that they have a democratic mandate to counter. the crowds behind me have led a

popular grass roots campaign to collect more than 22 million signatures demanding that he step down. the plan to bring those signatures here to the presidential palace, to deliver them to president mohamed morsi. the problem, though, is that president morsi and his supporters say the only way he will leave power is through the ballot box. and that is why this situation here is as tense as it has ever been over the past two years. so much so, the military has been once again deployed in various parts of the country to protect key government installations, as well as the suez canal. in fact, over our heads for the past several hours, we've been seeing the egyptian military flying overhead. the situation has been violent over the past several days. since wednesday, at least seven people have been killed, many people here say it is time for the military to once again retake control of this country. but support is in the president say that would be a dangerous

step back for egypt. it would be a coup, and it would lead to more divisions in the country. possibly even civil war. so it is a standoff. it is a battle of wills that's not clear how it will unfold in the coming hours. craig? >> ayman, we know that yesterday these protests were deadly, with one american actually being killed, actually being stabbed to death. the protests today, have they been peaceful by and large, or what more can you tell us about that? >> reporter: the numbers certainly would indicate it is, and has been peaceful. you can probably see the fireworks going off behind me. it is a festive atmosphere for the most part. but yes, there are parts of the country that have seen violent clashes. the headquarters of the muslim brotherhood and political affiliated organization the freedom and justice party, at least several of those offices across the country have been torched. the police have been ordered to use maximum restraint without any live ammunition. it is a precarious situation to

say the least, craig. >> our man in cairo. be safe, buddy. we'll continue to follow this story, folks. if there should be a major development over the next hour, we will, of course, bring it to you live. a burden banished. what it means for same-sex couples divided by immigration. extreme heat. at least one person is dead so far. dozens hospitalized. as triple-digit temperatures punish the west. and so look at the dog there. wanted to be part of the tour de france. cute, right? until he almost gets run over. and that was just the beginning. we're going to show you the finish line fiasco. the calamitous events that followed. from capital one... boris earns unlimited rewards for his small business. can i get the smith contract, please? thank you. that's three new paper shredders. [ boris ] put 'em on my spark card. [ garth ] boris' small business earns 2% cash back on every purchase every day.

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last week's supreme court ruling opened the path for citizenship for many gays and lesbians around the country, for the first time allowing bi-national couples to apply for green cards. one such couple had been together for nearly 13 years. ken is a u.s. citizen, and ots is here on a work visa from the bahamas. good to see both of you. >> thank you. >> thanks for having us. >> kim, what was your reaction when you found out that the court had overturned doma? >> i just was in shock. it's been so long for us, waiting for something to let us have a home together, permanently. and i just really couldn't believe it had happened. >> ots, there are according to the williams institute, more than some 28,000 bi-national couples living here in the united states, meaning one couple is a u.s. citizen, the

other is not. in 2007, i understand you were forced to live apart for a year, because your viza expired. you referred to that period of time as your time in exile. what was that like? >> it was really hard. i think for the longest time, having to leave the country was the worst thing that could happen to me. i've always been in this country on visa, so always a temporary status. there's always conditions around how long you can stay on that visa. that day finally came in 2007. in order to qualify for another work visa, i needed to leave for a full year and not reenter before i could qualify for another one. it was very hard. it was very hard. we had to uproot ourselves. and i think the hardest part was actually not knowing for sure that i could come back. so, yeah, it was very hard. >> again, washington state does recognize same-sex marriage.

jim demint had this to say. take a listen. >> it's not about the desires of adults, it's really about the best environment for children. we're talking about all about politics. the reason governments at the state level and the federal level have recognized marriage between a man and a woman is because it's better for our country, and it's better for children. >> what say you to that? both of you. >> it's untrue. it's been proven untrue by study after study, that there's any negative impacts on children, growing up with their parents gays or lesbians. it's preposterous, and most of society has moved on. i'm sorry he hasn't. >> i also -- before i left in 2007, we actually gathered a lot of our friends from across the community to sort of record videos for us. and we thought very carefully about the kinds of questions we wanted to pose to them.

and one of those was, why do you think this is happening to ken and ots? what will their absence mean to your life, your work and your community? you know, we didn't watch that footage until about maybe a month ago because it's been too painful to revisit that time. but it's incredible when we finally did watch it, that it's not just us, and our story, but the community around people and couples like us. that are affected by us being here, and of not being here. i think for us, we're able to show that there's a positive impact in having relationships like ours recognized. >> real quickly, before i let you go get out of here, with the approval of doma, or rejection of doma by the high court, does this mean you guys are getting married? >> this is the first question everybody asks. >> at least i saved it for the end. >> yes. but craig, nobody's proposed to

anybody yet. >> yes. one of us is still waiting for a proposal from the other. >> now i created an awkward moment on television. we'll leave it there then. thanks to both of you have. and good luck to both of you as well. >> thank you. >> thanks. comedy and chaos. the tour de france, a bus gets stuck under the finish line, causing a bicyclist pileup. throwing the whole race offcourse. much to the dismay and humiliation of the driver there. thinking they couldn't move the bus in time, panicked organizers changed the location of the finish line. then changed it back. in the confusion, the race leader slammed on his brakes, leading to a pileup of more than 25 riders there. as you can see. organizers finally got the bus out of the way. but only after they deflated the wheels. the tour de france or the tour

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welcome back to msnbc, the place for politics. into the political playground we go. the obama administration planned on using the national football league to promote obama care, but gop leaders were not happy about that idea. mitch mcconnell and fellow republican senator john cornyn sent a letter to the commissioner thursday saying, given the divisiveness and unpopularity of this bill, it is difficult to understand why an organization like yours would risk damaging its inclusive and apolitical brand by lending its name to its promotion. by friday, nfl spokesman brian mccarthy said the nfl has, quote, no plans to engage in this area. civil rights activist, democratic congressman john lewis is releasing the first of a three-part autobiography on august 13th. but folks, this is no ordinary memoir. take a look at the cover. it's a comic book version

complete with the very own super hero. you guessed it, john lewis himself. and remember rusty the red panda's houdini like escape? zookeepers think he got out through a tree canopy. that zoo became home to a new species this week when "time" magazine sent grover and al out on a zoo date to see how the unlikely pair would behave in their natural habitat. they talked about what should be done about taxes and dealing with the debt. we saw lions, tigers, it was like dorothy in the wizard of oz. it was great. >> i saw something there i would like to feed. that was the jit kimoto. i said, grover, you would look good inside there. he said -- he laughed

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with the extreme heat showing no signs of slowing down. . at least one person has died and dozens more hospitalized as temperatures topped well over 100. u.s. airways canceled flights because it's affecting takeoff and landings procedures as well. we want to take you quickly to the massive protests in cairo, egypt. a live look here where thousands have gathered around the country, demanding their president, mohamed morsi, leave office. today marks the one-year anniversary of morsi's inauguration, as egypt's first freely elected president. meanwhile, back here on these new york city, the gay pride parade, and the woman at the center of the defensive marriage act struck down by the supreme court a few days ago. she spoke before the parade started this afternoon. >> we began to become a community in the aftermath of

stonewall, and became real during the aids crisis. now, in the last few years, coming out in droves, as we fought for equality, what a wonderful way to survive. my life is full of joy and love and community. thank you all so much for your support. it's been such a major part of this. >> michelle franzen is live in new york city. michelle, it looks like it's raining on the parade. >> reporter: yeah, you know, in the past hour, craig, we've seen some rain fall here. but it's certainly not dampening the atmosphere of this rally. of course, the 44th commemorating of the lesbian and gay rights movement 44 years ago. the parade behind me, we're at the end of this march route, which passes right by the historic stonewall. and of course, that is where this movement began 44 years ago with the three days of rioting

at that time. this year, of course, they expected an even larger crowd, given that it coincided with the landmark supreme court decisions, both the one that you mentioned involving eddie -- edi windsor. and where the supreme court basically deciding not to rule on a case. and that allowed this -- the proposition 8 to -- that was banning marriage in that state, to fall apart. so marriage is there. it resumed this weekend. of course, they're still beginning with some other struggles as backers of prop 8 try to appeal that decision. >> michelle franzen live in new york city on a sunday. michelle, thank you. week two in the george zimmerman murder trial starts tomorrow morning. so far, 22 witnesses have been called. the state's key witness was 19-year-old rachel jintel, on the phone with trayvon martin

moments before he was shot. george zimmerman is charged with the second-degree murder of 17-year-old trayvon martin. zimmerman has pled not guilty saying he acted in self-defense. karen desoto is a former prosecutor, and kendall. kendall, there was conflicting testimony about who was the aggressor in the altercation between martin and zimmerman. here are two witnesses who testified in court, first as a neighbor jonathan good, the second selma moore who spoke to a translator. let's listen to this and talk about it on the other side. >> let's go to the night that you saw, the person who you now know to be trayvon martin was on top, correct. >> correct. >> he was the one who was raining blows down on the person on the bottom, george zimmerman, right? >> that's what it looked like. >> when the man on top got up

and started walking around, could you see the man on the bottom, or the person on the bottom better? >> yes. >> could you tell at that point whether or not the person on the bottom was on their stomach or their back? >> he was face down. >> kendall, how does a jury sort through conflicting testimony like that? >> well, it's going to be difficult. and there isn't any witness that has said who threw the first punch. which can be absolutely critical in a self-defense case. because remember, even if george zimmerman was pursuing trayvon martin, confronting him verbally, that doesn't cause him to lose the right of self-defense if a fight began and if george zimmerman later was getting the worst of the fight and thought he had to do something to save his own life.

and to get to that next critical point, i think a prosecutor is going to rely heavily on george zimmerman himself, not testifying as a witness in the trial. we don't know if he's going to do that, but there are a number of recorded statements by george zimmerman. and the prosecution thinks they can so many discrepancies and inconsistencies, they can prove george zimmerman a liar. >> how do you prove that your client feared imminent death or serious bodily injury without putting that client on the stand? how do you do that? >> well, i wouldn't recommend it, and it's very difficult. one of the things you do in a self-defense, one of the rule of thumbs is you have to put your client on. you can get it through testimony, and here you have 911 calls. you have other witnesses. and you may be able to get it out through that. but at the end of the day if you're doing self-defense, you better be ready to put your client on the stand. >> do you think george zimmerman

has to take the stand in this case? >> i do. unless if it keeps going this way, the prosecutor has to prove he had a depraved mind. and predicated on any act that is imminently dangerous and evidencing a depraved mind. so if they don't meet that marker, and they feel safe by not putting him on the stand, that there's enough witnesses not to allow the prosecution to make their case, then yeah, they may want to use that as a strategy. >> last week i learned even if the jury concludes that george zimmerman profiled trayvon martin, he could still be found not guilty. explain to the viewers at home how that could be the case. >> the key issue is not whether george zimmerman did something wrong. and assuming he ignored the dispatcher, there's evidence of that, and pursue trayvon martin, in order to see what was going on, then maybe he wasn't supposed to be doing that, that's not a crime. what's a crime, of course, is killing somebody without a

legitimate claim of self-defense. if they got into a verbal confrontation, no matter what words george zimmerman was using, that's not a crime. the critical thing becomes, did george zimmerman do something to cause him to lose the right of self-defense. if george zimmerman was the first physical aggressor, he has no self-defense claim. if he acted unreasonably, in killing an unarmed teenager because he didn't have to do it, then that could cause him to lose self-defense. the details of what happened after the verbal confrontation is going to be critical for this jury. >> karen, what testimony should we be paying closest attention to this week? >> well, obviously, as mr. coffey said, if you're doing self-defense, you have to prove zimmerman was not the person who provoked or was the aggressor. there's going to be more testimony, more witnesses trying to show that this was not of his doing. and lots of information correlated to that. the case so far, their star

witness we already heard from. that didn't seem as strong as most people thought it was going to be. in fact, a lot of her testimony helped the defense. >> how so? >> well, first of all -- >> we're talking about the 19-year-old rachel jintel. >> she was inconsistent. the first words spoken in the conversation appeared to be from trayvon martin to george zimmerman, kind of helping him say that maybe he was not the first aggressor. wars not the person who provoked the situation. so that's just evidence there. obviously the prosecutor will have their side and the jurors will have to figure it out. >> kendall, how would you describe week one, really quickly? >> well, it was a closely divided week in terms of where the prosecution is. i don't think they're there yet. they need to prove george zimmerman was being intruthful, was lying about what happened that night. if that doesn't come across in their case, it will be very difficult to get a conviction. >> thank you both for your insight. >> thank you. up next, paying the price.

just as members of congress leave for vacation, federal student loan interest rates will double tomorrow. i'm going to talk to one student who could end up paying thousands more. we'll also talk about whether there's a solution in sight. ♪ [ agent smith ] i've found software that intrigues me. it appears it's an agent of good. ♪ [ agent smith ] ge software connects patients to nurses to the right machines while dramatically reducing waiting time. [ telephone ringing ] now a waiting room is just a room. [ static warbles ] ... you thought wrong.

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and she forgot to pay her credit card bill on time. good thing she's got the citi simplicity card. it doesn't charge late fees or a penalty rate. ever. as in never ever. now about that parking ticket. [ grunting ] [ male announcer ] the citi simplicity card is the only card that never has late fees, a penalty rate, or an annual fee, ever. go to citi.com/simplicity to apply. starting tomorrow, 7 million college students will see their loan rates on subsidized federal stafford loans double. that translates to about $2,600 more that the average student will have to pay back. that's on average. why, you ask? that's because congress failed to act before july 4th, before the july 4th recess, despite a last-minute bipartisan effort. joining me from d.c. is the deputy director of young invincibles, and a finance student at howard university.

he is a rising sophomore. and samsa, i want to start with you, because you wrote an op-ed before congress went into recess and it caught our eye. you wrote in part, if congress lets interest rates double on july 1st, we'll pay an extra $1,000 each year of college over the life of the loan. my family and i are not sure what other hard decisions we will have to make to continue my education. so again, samson, as you know, the deadline's tomorrow. are you going to be able to go back to howard? >> i'm currently going to be able to go back to howard. what this means to me is i'm highly discouraged at the fact that congress couldn't get the measure passed prior to recess. a lot of people are currently struggling. it feels as if they don't want to help us get over the hump with higher interest rates.

>> how much do you owe already in student loans? >> i owe a substantial amount. >> substantial? >> very substantial. >> 10, 15, or are we talking -- >> enough. >> we'll leave it there. >> yeah, that's where we'll leave it right now. the thing is, when you get these loans, you're obviously not in a finance place to pay for the tuition yourselves. for instance, me, when i went to howard, i didn't even have enough money for books and had to take loans from my friends in school to get books. so the fact that they're continuing to raise these interest rates without taking us into consideration is very discouraging. >> jen, congress went to recess before they could come to some sort of solution here. what's the next step for your organization? and young people as well, the next step to take to get these loan rates reversed? >> absolutely. its a good question. it's unbelievable that congress

left for recess without fixing this problem. what's actually more unbelievable is we saw some proposals put forth last week at the last minute that actually could have made students worse off. so as we come back, we're looking for a vote on a short-term solution that will keep rates low and we're expecting a vote july 10th. we're hoping we can retroactively fix this problem. >> jen and samson, this is elizabeth warren of massachusetts. here's what she had to say about the issue thursday. >> this is also a moral question. the united states government should be investing in our students, not charging them profits for getting an education. >> samson, do you think congress gets how big of a problem this really is for a lot of students? >> i feel at one point seeing so many congressman have went to college prior to joining congress, i feel a lot of them understand the struggle that us

students are currently going through. i just feel like it's obviously falling into the back of their mind the problem they had with these student loans. and obviously that's not good for us. >> jen? >> one thing i would add is a lot of members of congress went to college at a time when, you know, it didn't cost as much. >> exactly. >> when my mom went to school, it cost her a third of the tuition it cost me when i went to college. rates have gone up. costs have gone up. you're looking pat a generation that holds $1 trillion in student debt now. >> samson, what's your major? >> i'm currently a finance major. >> what do you want to do when you get pout? >> i want to be a venture capitalist. >> then you'll be able to help other college kids when they go to school. >> exactly. >> thanks to both of you. >> thanks so much. >> thank you for having us. government furloughs have a new victim. fourth of july fireworks. military officials have canceled

celebrations on a number of bases, including north carolina's camp lejeune and fort bragg.

we want to update you on this developing story want to u story we are continuing to follow in cairo. thuns of thousands descended on on square. they are protesting wmohamed morsi. hundreds of thousands protesting in cairo. so far, the protest, today at least, by and large, have been peaceful. the brain trust is back np

angela wroorye. good to see all of you. this is a portion of the program where we ask you to submit headlines. this week of course america celebrating independence and freedom from landmark decisions on same-sex marriage to the ongoing debate to secreter iek surveillance. mike, since you are the new-comer we come to you, sir, what is it? >> in light of the fact that americans weren't that upset about spying, my headline is america wakes up, immediately goes back to sleep. >> you really think that there's widespread apathy and indifference with the spying and snowden stuff? >> i think the federal government and national security apparatus have done an amazing job selling what the nsa does, fbi, cia does, and i think

people believe the federal government has struck the right balance between liberty and security. even though we have no idea what they are actually doing in total. so we really can't say that. but they are telling us they struck the right balance and i think a number of americans believe they are right. >> this is something that matters, especially to journalists, matters to a lot of folks in the beltway, but john q. six pack isn't necessarily as up in arms about this as we are. >> yeah, i absolutely agree with that. i think pole numbers have demonstrated that is also the case. you also have the fact that folks are still trying to get on their feet economically and this is just not that big of a deal. maybe if this happened before boston or if there were other attacks that we know the government was not able to thwart then maybe people would be upset but i do not think they

are up in arms. there are folks that are progressives or lining with libertarians in this and they are up in arms about it. but i certainly am not with the security background that i have. >> what is your headline, by wait? >> my headline by the way, is independence, reality for all-americans. i think just like with july 4, 1776, we are having victories with the supreme court this week. but there are also major set backs. whether it is the voting rights, unraffling of section 4 or affirmative action case and set backs that are there. now the strictest jscrutiny programs for higher education. i think when you look at a clarence thomas, and we have talked about this before, craig, is supposed to follow in the steps of thurgood martishall is stepping back because he doesn't

like the skin he is in. so we need another advocate on the court. >> i don't know how many expect to follow in the steps of thurgood marshall. >> for a black man to come after a giant like thurgood marshall, to be, i'm sorry, a disgrace, to everybody in america, not just black people. >> do i see you nodding in the affirmative? >> she is making a strong point. i didn't expect clarence thomas when he was appointed or now to be the successor. not now. >> what is your headline, mr. bacon? >> my headline is, is freedom all that matters? >> that concerns me. >> well, let me come back and talk about that. >> you argue advanced freedom and i'm not sure that freedom is all that matters, we didn't have eequal think the week.

and the number of backs in the senate went down in half because one person left. if you read john robbers opinion, as if they were in this american panasia, brought on my barack obama, it is all equal and this is one african-american governor since 2004 in the last ten years, duvall patrick and barack obama. that's the entire list elected to governor or senate. equality is going in the same direction our freedom is. >> we have had this talk the last few days. perry, i'm interested in your opinion. do you think the gay rights decisions that came down this week, did they completely overshadow the voting rights decision and the affirmative action decision? >> i don't know if they overshadow affirmative action. i do think people underplayed how important the affirmative

action decision was. we went from strict to extremely, extremely salt lake city scrutiny. it is hard for me to understand what it looks like, texas in narrow and they didn't like it either. maybe a punt but but it wasn't. the court could have said, this is okay. it has real implications. >> we will leave it right there. >> angela, perry bacon junior as well, and mike, do you think you will come back? did you enjoy it enough to do it again? >> if you'll have me back, absolutely. big thanks to all three of you. and big thanks to you. thank you for spending a portion of your sunday afternoon with us. i'll be back, 2:00 next saturday. 2:00 eastern. first though, karen finney is standing by. she is ready to disrupt. have a fantastic sunday night.

if this happens, thousands and thousands of women will not have access to reproductive healthcare. >> she is forgetting about the thousands of women would want an