the statue of liberty is reopening. favorite american landmark or historical monument. dan has responses. >> hey. got a couple good ones. golden gate bridge, bunker hill, mount rushmore. the washington monument, it's like a big middle finger to our enemies. >> nice. >> there's that. >> take that world. >> the largest ball of twine. it's an achievement to mortem. >> thank, dan. tons i never heard of. the guardians of traffic, courtesy of gene. that's in ohio. i think it's in cleveland. i never seen it. that looks cool to see a bunch of that. do the #waytoopatriotic if you want to do the choices. now time for "morning joe."

obviously the news is heartbreaking and, you know, our thoughts and prayers go out to the families of the brave firefighters who were out there. this is one more reminder of the fact that. our first responders they put their lives on the line every single day and every time we have a community in crisis, a disaster strikes, we've got people in need. you know, firefighters, law enforcement officers, they run towards the danger. >> president obama speaking about that horrible tragedy in arizona. we'll be getting to the news of that in a few moments. good morning. tuesday, july 2nd. with us on set host of "way too early," brian shactman, former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst steve ratner, host of msnbc's politics

nation and president of the national action network, the reverend al sharpton, msnbc's thomas roberts. >> good morning. >> in washington, senior fellow at the wood ro wilson international center robin wright. they may have been young but among the best of the wildfires out there, thomas. >> they were. this is a tragic story we've been following and the president starting off or taking comments about the tragedy that happened there. this fire that's been burning out of control there. these ongoing questions now this morning about how an elite team of firefighters they were overcome by the flames in arizona. all but one of them killed on the team of 20. in prescott last night, more than 1,000 people attended a memorial for the fallen there. while earlier in the day others brought flowers outside team headquarters where the unit known as the granite mountain hotshots and the dead, they were in their early 20s to mid 40s. many of them dads and husbands. 21-year-old kevin woyjeck he

hoped to some day work for the l.a. fire department where his dad was a captain. 30-year-old chris mackenzie was a firefighters. his family has few answers to what happened on that mountainside. >> something is wrong. that doesn't happen. they know what they're doing. he showed me pictures of fires that he ran from because, you know, they got too hot and too fast and they had to get out of there. why wasn't the same thing happening. i don't know. >> joining us from prescott, arizona, nbc news correspondent gabe gutierrez. gabe, good morning. >> thomas, good morning. as you mentioned there are several aspects of the story playing out this morning. three in particular. first, people are continuing to mourn the victims here as you can see behind me. this makeshift memorial continues to grow and last night as you mentioned more than 1,000 people showed up at this memorial service. this extremely just so tragic for this town of about 40,000

people where it seems everyone knew at least one of the firefighters. some people knew virtually all of them. as you played an interview with some of these family members they're really having a tough time coming to terms with this unimaginable loss. you know, you hear perhaps one or two firefighters being killed in the line of duty and in this sense there are 19 lives lost. now that's one aspect of the story that's playing out this morning. but also there's the investigation into how these firefighters died. these were elite firefighters that had done this many times before and there's still a lot of questions and exactly how this fire turned and ended up overtaking these firefighters in a short amount of time. it grew several thousand acres within just a few minutes and a few hours. so still a lot of questions surrounding that. and finally, while this community continues to mourn the victims, there is a fire still burning right now, about 8400 acres at last check. we hope to get updated numbers later today. right now it is 0% contained.

right now still a lot going on in arizona. people coming to grips with this terrible tragedy, and, you know, this town is really trying to move forward afterp an unimaginable loss, thomas. >> what are they saying about weather conditions as they get back out there? >> well, you know, yesterday there was some monsoon winds may have flared this up. right now, there's still hot, dry conditions, and the firefighters hope to be able to make some headway on this fire today. really it's anybody's guess right now. still 0% contained and really don't know when they're going to be able to get ahold of this thing. >> nbc's gabe gutierrez reporting. >> mike, there's one guy out left out of 20. >> 19 out of 20. i personally have almost no frame of reference for tragedy. we're used to reading about fires and firefighters responding in large cities but the explosive action of that fire like a bomb exploding

within the -- you know, woodlands just incredible, the accelerated pace of that fire, the way it took 19 people into it's funny, in the news business, we do these images all the time of wildfires and we just show sometimes just for the traumatic pictures and we all look at first responders different after 9/11, of course, but when 24 people died in moore, oklahoma, 19 firefighters died in this fire, 19, i mean when you actually sit and think about it, it registers a little more. >> yeah. i mean you're right. we're used to seeing, you know, los angeles, the hills around los angeles. fire in the hills. >> people. movie stars lost their homes. wow. isn't that something. >> i think that it's very significant what he said about until 9/11, a lot of people in new york, i'm a new yorker, never thought about it. and then you kind of think during budget times and cuts and union negotiations they're just there. they are on the line all the

time, and i think the president was right to really remind people of the real service they do. to see 19 lose their lives in minutes, the way this spread, is something that's unreal. >> well the other big story capturing all the headlines we see on the papers, what's happening in egypt following days of widespread's demonstrations egypt's president is facing the ultimatum, give into the public demands or else. mow mam head morsi has 48 hours to reconcile the differences or otherwise the military's generals will intervene seeking their road map to restore peace. members of the muslim brotherhood are calling the deadline a, quote, military coup. this is amazing to think we've only been a year out of democratically elected president morsi's rule, where the people rose up, their voices were heard to get rid of mubarak and now we see them in the streets doing this to mohamed morsi. let's talk to robin and ask, your reaction to this? because the military now getting

involved, means that this ultimatum will be met one way or another because this is the way that they got rid of mubarak. >> well, the president issued a statement last night -- >> robin wright? washington. >> good morning. >> something wrong with the sound. >> we can hear her. >> we can? >> something wrong with my sound. >> let her talk, barnicle, let her talk. >> it's me, not you. >> good morning. >> i'm going to get q-tips and i'll be right back. >> good morning. look, this is a turning point for egypt. very, very important moment. the military has issued very tough language that in a way gives the presidency a real challenge in how it responds because the military has basically come down on the side of the millions, maybe tens of millions, who turned out in the streets of egypt on sunday. the presidency did issue a statement last night indicating it plans to stand firm, but it's hard to see how president morsi will salvage his presidency when

you have that kind of outpouring, even larger than the protests against president mubarak. the presidency argues that morsi was elected democratically and that it intends to try to launch a national reconciliation dialog. but that's really been on the table for months now, and it's difficult to see how the opposition is going to respond in a way that allows morsi to stay in power. >> you know, what's incredible, steve ratner, as we watches these pictures and seen the pictures prior to this and it was nice hearing robin for the last -- >> you got your ear horn. >> i got it fixed now. millions of people in the streets of cairo, you have an entire geographical arc from turkey, syria, lebanon, israel, egypt, even into libya. nearly a year in revolution or

unrest. egypt, what is going on in egypt? what is the next step in ugipts? the army, as robin alluded to, is saying 48 hours. 48 hours is going to pass and nothing is going to happen. >> i'm not sure nothing is going to happen. you've got more people in the streets now that voted for morsi. i think you've got the generals being very clear he's got to go. it's not obvious to me how he stays. but what's also interesting, you have president obama basically standing behind morsi, as i've seen his comments from africa, and arguing unlike mubarak, morsi was democratically elected, this was supposed to be the transition for egypt to a democracy. i'm not sure where the u.s. interests lie and how we're going to work our way through this and end up on the side of whoever is on top there. >> robin, how does the united states work our way through this situation? haven't we not learned -- i mean we cannot import -- export the league of women voters to places where they don't want what we have, what we profess to do

every day in our democracy. >> the administration last year or two years ago, actually, in 2011, at the time of the ouster of president mubarak had to make a very tough call, standing up against an alley of 30 years and it took 11 days to make that strategic decision and responded in many ways to what was happening on the streets. the difference now is you have a democratically elected president and it's very interesting that the language from the white house supported not president morsi specifically, but the idea of a democratically elected president. the solution in egypt clearly is to, whether it's an interim president or have president morsi call for new elections, that there is a way to see a democratic transition that would not put the military back in power. the military is not a viable solution either. there are not many attractive options. the question is, how do you diffuse this tension? with the military and the opposition now in one united

camp, the president morsi will have to respond one way or another in ways that introduce major changes and potentially see him step aside. >> i think you've got a classic case of where you have an anti-mubarak, anti-repressive mome movement, that has been misinterpreted by morsi and others as pro them. sometimes reformers forget the grievances of people is not for them, as it is as much against the grievances. with morsi in a year and people feeling conditions haven't changed, he now becomes the object of what he benefited from. i think the challenge now is how you have a democratic transition if we're going to transition out, or how he deals with the issues that brought him to power in the first place. >> that's -- >> remember, that conditions have not only not changed, they've gotten worsep. a country that's on the verge of economic collapse where there's fuel shortages, electricity

shortages. the currency is falling apart. you have inflation. you can't get food. underlying the social movement you have a collapsing economy which someone has to deal with. >> if they don't wait for an election or get an election and there's a coup or anything happens to remove morsi it's an absolute failure. then it becomes what it's always been there, which is something that doesn't follow the rule of law according to democratic standards. so you need to do it in a democratic way to make it work or else they regress in terms of how their politics work. >> but -- >> one of the problems there, as well, is that there's very limited al it ter natives, that the opposition, the traditional parties, have not been able to coalesce, they are between ego and ineptitude, they have not provided a viable alternatives. one of the big questions, not whether morsi stands down, the question is who is either capable or viable as an alternative. that's as big a question as what happens to president morsi. >> what comes next. can we show the video of the helicopters flying over the crowds. that was a signal to the

protesters that the army had given this ultimatum, they stepped in and the clock is ticking down now of 48 hours. they were towing those egyptian flags underneath and the protesters went crazy, knowing that the fact that the army has now stepped in to intercede and give this ultimatum. so robin, as you point out, the alternatives of what may come next, what are morsi's best options? >> morsi doesn't have many options right now. the danger is that the muslim brotherhood has waited for 80 years, it's emerged from a bad movement, it believes its moment has arrived and it charges there are conspirators behind this effort, that it's the old regime trying to make a comeback and to a certain extent there are still those from the old regime who are among the opposition, who do want to make a comeback. and so, you know, this may not be solved in 48 hours. whether the military will move in and actually escort him out, that's not clear that that's what the military is talking

about. it's really issued a political ultimatum, not one that it looks like it will automatically engage in a coup. i think it's tough on that 48 hours. we're now down to 24 hours, in fact. >> when the 24 hours have lapsed, steve, on the ground, these people are looking at helicopters, they're still going to be living in a country of a median age of about 19.5 years with horrific unemployment, no prospects for jobs. as you said, an economy that is being shattered by daily events around the world, that's what's going to be left for whoever takes over. >> yeah. really it's very hard to see exactly where it goes from here. personally, i think it's going to be very hard for morsi to stay there and i take the generals at their word we're going to see action from them pretty quickly. >> let's move on and figure out what's going on with this story. edward snowden is speaking out publicly as the former nsa contract continues to leak highly classified information about the u.s. government's

surveillance program. snowden who's currently stuck in a moscow airport has withdrawn his request for asylum in russia after president putin said snowden would be welcome in his country, but only under one condition, quote, stop hurting our american partners but publishing classified documents. former president george w. bush who put many of the nsa programs into place, spoke about the threat that snowden poses to the u.s. >> i know he damaged the country. the obama administration will deal with it. >> but do you think it's possible for one man to really damage the security of the nation? >> i think he damaged the security of the nation. i put the program in place to protect the country and one of the certainties is civil liberties were guaranteed. >> so really interesting, though, about the fact that snowden is not getting any love from russia. the ecuadorian president has said they're not considering his asylum request. never intended to facilitate his

flight from hong kong apparently. the reason why ek ka dor was originally thought to be potentially an area of interest for him because julian assange is living in the ecuadorian embassy in london. a lot of people wonder if snowden could get from the airport to the ecuadorian embassy in russia, would they provide, you know -- >> they don't seem to want him. they don't seem to want him. biden called the president of ecuador. threatened to take away their free trade status which has economic consequences for them. i read this parsing of things saying he has to be an embassy of ecuador or ecuador, as saying they don't want him either. >> they clearly don't want him. when you take a stand of conscience, you got to be willing to stand up for it. i agree the government ought not to be listening to american citizens under any president, including this one that i support. but at the same time, if you're going to take a stand, you should take a stand and a lot of

people find -- it's complex because at one level, you don't want to pay for what you stood up for and come to the u.s. and say this is what i did, let's deal with it. but another level now you find no refuge anywhere and it's a torturous journey for a lot of people that support the overall view of not have the spying, but we're not too clear on exactly what snowden is doing. >> it's hitting the wires india has rejected his request. he apparently has put out applications to 15 different countries seeking asylum. >> he's going to have to go to a bad place if he wants to find a country for asylum. everyone talks about the impotence of the u.s., they're showing they're not impotent in this case, wherever he goes it's going to be a problem for that country and that's the pressure being beared across the world. >> why do i think his best bet is to get himself a team of lawyers in the united states, cut a deal with the department of justice, return to the united

states to face the legal music. >> he doesn't want to sit -- >> first of all i agree with the reverend al, if you want to take a stand on principle the way daniel ellsberg, daniel ellsberg stayed here, did go to trial, it was a mistrial, but he faced justice so to speak. i would only quibble, nobody is listening to american's phone calls. they're collecting data but we can argue about that separately. coming back to the u.s. and putting himself in the hands of american lawyers means one thing which is life in prison. he's trying to find something better than life in an american prison. >> robin, you were going to jump in here, i thought? >> there's one real danger here, that he is not the only person with access to this information. he has left copies apparently or so he claims with others in case something happens to him or he is unable to release further details. so the danger is not just -- is no longer just ed snowden. it's also who else has access to that information and could take action even if he was, for

example, silenced in russia as a condition for refuge. >> robin, do you imagine he has a trump card, other than what he's placed around -- you would think this guy would have some type of trump card up his sleeve? >> i think he had a plan in terms of releasing information, but it's clear that he didn't have a game plan for what to do next. i think he was terribly naive in considering what the outside world would want of him or would offer him in exchange for information. >> yeah. >> and he just didn't think this through. >> he planned so much of this out except for his exit strategy. >> not only that, but in speaking with several intelligence officials over the past week, i am told that snowden, while he had a general idea of what he had, he had no idea of the extent of what he had and what he has is certainly, again i am told, it's been reported to me, that there's no intelligence service in the world that would be

surprised that anything that's in what he had, but what it does, is it provides a road map to intelligence services how we collect and our targets of collecting. >> it's the confirmation. everybody knows we're in the business trying to steal secr s secrets. this is the confirmation of how we've done it. he continues to live at moscow international airport. >> tom hanks made that movie. >> "terminal" in '004. if they have a virgin atlantic concourse there, it's fine. those concourses are excellent. they've got pink berry. they've got all kinds of stuff. i just say that now. coming up on "morning joe," the "washington post" eugene robinson will join us, campbell brown, later medal of honor recipient dakota meyer on set. the top stories in the politico playbook. first meteorologist todd santos. >> good morning to you. looking similar to what we had out there yesterday. for air travelers if you were in the east coast airports, get ready for more delays. there's a look at warm

temperatures, 76 in philly, 77 down towards d.c., a look at the satellite and radar a few showers dotting the skies. not that much in the way of heavy rain. thunderstorm activity, could see thunderstorms later on in the afternoon. up towards 84, 80 through far eastern pennsylvania. did see at least a few lightning strikes a short time ago. the rainfall amounts could again lead to some localized flash flooding. some of the areas you're seeing yellow on the map 48 hours, see accumulations an inch and a half to two inches. a look at some of the flash flood watches in place, the bright green color, and the forecast, the good news i should say, the fourth of july it's starting to clear up a bit, models backing off on those rain chances. more "morning joe" coming your way, next. "i'm part of an american success story,"

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jookz brown here on -- jackson brown. this is not radio. we're not doing top 40. a look at the morning papers. the telegraph, the vatican's bank director and his deputy resign amid a mounting corruption scandal that comes after a priest was arrested for attempting to bring $20 million into italy from switzerland. pope frances has appointed a commission to oversee a massive overhaul to clean up corruption within the bank. >> "san francisco chronicle" two of san francisco's largest transit unions continue to strike over pension, health care, salary. the strike affecting more than 400,000 riders and could add unto 60,000 more vehicles on the road this morning. san francisco has the nation's fifth largest rail system in the country. >> the shots of the traffic jams in san francisco yesterday, i

mean traffic was backed up to denver. >> we were in san francisco yesterday trying to get back to new york and luckily we got out early in the morning because the local news, they were talking about how severe the holdup was going to be on the roads because of so many people having to resort to taking to cars. >> incredible. "boston globe" disgraced fbi agent john mars took the stand yesterday during whitey bulger's trial making an emotional apology to the families said to be the victims of the former mob boss. morris and another agent took money and gifts from bulger and gave him tips about fbi investigators. former drug dealer joe tower took the stand. he said he paid bulger part of his earnings in exchange for protection. "new york times" the gaming company zynga replaced their ceo with the head of microsoft's xb xbox. zynga is down and implemented

layo layoffs. famous for games like farm bill they are eager to revitalize that. they also have -- >> they're not -- they're with games. how is that going to be a long-term huge company. mr. pinkus was a star "60 minutes" features and so on. a major fall from grace for this company. >> i have not been able to do words with friends. >> you haven't? >> i have no friends. >> my mother will play you. >> i can't do it. >> my mother will play you. >> play with myself. it makes no sense. >> words with myself. >> you'll always win. >> overseas, tokyo, apple applied for a trademark for the long awaited iwatch. the patent was submitted june 3rd and it will be the tech giant's first wearable device. this could be a big move for the company which has been under fire to maintain its reputation for innovation. not having introduced a new product since the ipad in 2010. what is an iwatch?

anybody know? do you know, steve? >> no idea. >> it's that thing. >> an iwatch. >> basically your ipad on your wrist. >> that's too much. it's -- >> google glass for your wrist. >> never too much. you always have to have the next new thing. >> you know, reverend, going to do wearable computing. you would rather do that than google glasses. >> yeah. >> i would buy a watch before google glasses. >> i want to see you in a pair of google glasses. >> i know. you want to see a lot of things. >> baby steps. >> all right. also from the "usa today" gas prices fall 8 cents to a national average to $3.50 a gallon. this comes as millions of drivers get ready to hit the road for the holiday week. if they haven't left already. the "l.a. times," in "the los angeles times" a rocket exploded just after takeoff in the former soviet union. the rocket, carrying three russian gps satellites, upended moments after its launch. not long after it returned to earth, it exploded in a spectacular fireball releasing a

toxic cloud of rocket fuel. the good news, no one was hurt. joining us now, in washington, d.c., ladies and gentlemen you've al been waiting for him, patrick gavin, back with politico playbook and no references, patrick, to the cats in your house. >> well, that would be a first. i appreciate it very much. >> you're welcome. >> what's going on? in kentucky, mitch mcconnell has an opponent and that race is fairly close, i'm told. >> yeah. obviously a lot of people are looking at ashley judd. i know you're a big fan of divine secrets of the ya ya sisterhood. you're going to be disappointed. but the democratic party is actually very excited. they've got one of their top regrouts in the kentucky secretary of state. she announced her bid yesterday. when you look at the 2008 race, it was close by the way these elections are 52-48. what democratic party is hoping she's going to do is two things. obviously build a moderate voters and women in that state.

she's not a random politician. her dad was the former politician. you can expect to see the clintons down there. mitch mcconnell was quick in releasing some opposition down there through one of the kentucky pacts. very much tying her with nancy pelosi and barack obama. so, you know, it could be one of these nasty races. also going to be one of the more high-profile ones if you see the clintons heading down there to campaign for miss grimes. >> two questions, patrick. can she raise enough money to compete against mitch mcconnell and what does mitch mcconnell do, does he go right, further right in kentucky, in terms of opposing her? >> yeah. to the answer to the first question she can raise a lot of money. when your dad is the former state party chairman, when you have connections to the clintons and let's be honest every democrat around the country wants to see mitch mcconnell gone. she's going to tap in resources not only in kentucky but around the country. don't think money will be an issue.

i think mitch mcconnell will go right. you see this happening in kentucky with one of the ads the republican pacts put out, associating -- the words you'll see from mitch mcconnell about her are washington liberal, washington liberal. he's going to hammer that home, hammer that point home that's already a 30-second ad that connects her with nancy pelosi and barack obama. had he's not necessarily so far trying to tack towards the middle. he's trying to pigeonhole her as this washington connecter, this person with all these ties in town and not somebody who can relate to people in kentucky. >> i think grimes is the real deal. and i go to louisville a lot to preach and she can raise money and she will bring in the whole issue of the war on women and the republican party which will bring a lot of national support. i think it's going to be an interesting race. i think that the mcconnell will go far right. i think kentucky is a lot more center than it used to be. it's going to be an interesting race. >> see if ashley judd comes out

and campaigns for grimes. >> that's right. >> yeah. >> all right. >> patrick. >> yes. >> thank you very much. we appreciate your wisdom, your insight and the fact that you're so kind to your cats. >> mike, i don't appreciate you're not wearing a tie today. i was excited you started off the week on a good note and now you're a slob like me. >> thank you very much. but i have no respect for wearing it yesterday so i went back to my old clothes. >> look at your colleague, mr. -- >> look around the table. sharply dressed men there. you could learn a thing or two. >> patrick and brian, they got the memo about the "legend of bagger vance" and his suits. >> i love your ice cream suit, brian. >> thank you. i do my russell brand too, put my foot ware on the table. my chuck taylors. >> he's got sporty kicks on today. >> thanks. appreciate it. the mets going to extra innings at home versus the diamondbacks. many in the mood for a walk-off? sports is coming your way after this. stick around.

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time for sports. we know how new yorkers feel about firefighters and when the mets hosted the diamondbacks they honored the fallen firefighters in arizona with a moment of silence. behind those arizona players you see the jersey 19 for the numbers of those passed away in arizona with yarnell on the jersey to commemorate them. to the game itself, the mets battled back from a 3-0 deficit from extra innings. cody ross knocks over the left field wall. arizona takes the lead. in the bottom of the inning, a bit of a questionable intentional walk put the winning run on base and the mets andrew brown, down to his final strike, the walk-off, break up the mets, they win 5-4. >> crowd goes crazy. >> all 12 of them. >> yeah. >> wow. >> look at those people. >> more people on the field than there are in the stands. >> for the mets that's like winning the world series. about as good as it gets to win an extra inning game. >> tough on met fans. how about bryce harper back in

the lineup after out with a knee injury for about a month. in his very first at-bat, basic swing, hit it out of the park against the brewers. jayson werth drove in five and topped milwaukee 10-5. the yankees in minnesota looking to snap a five-game skid. in the fifth inning, a bit of a milestone for andy pettitte. he'll strike out justin morneau, strikeout number 1,958 for the yankees, the all-time strike outleader for the yankees. robinson canoe was the show. two home runs, three rbis, scored four runs, the yanks win 10-4. they're six behind the red sox in the al east. have no fear, ratner, a yankee fan? >> mets. mets all the way. >> you got to root for both, right? >> i've got to root for both. >> all right. >> have to root for a-rod? >> i have to root for everybody. >> a-rod might be back. >> don't know who -- >> reverend is praying for

everybody. >> a-rod will start in the minors, start and play three innings to try to come back. he had hip surgery and he's still under investigation, they say, for his performance enhancing drug links. we'll see what happens with that. also president obama yesterday got a demonstration of the rap skills, you see that? today it's soccer. as everyone else says football. while touring a power plant the president tested out a new invention called the socket ball. it gives it a dribble, bouncing it on his head at one point. probably could be good with the head on the soccer ball. the ball stores kinetic energy and after playing with it for a while can charge a cell phone or power a light. >> auto. >> what do you mean? >> i don't know. move it around and it creates energy and power. >> can charge a cell phone. >> going to show it right now. >> you plug your phone in whatever -- >> and supposedly the next version you will be able to play words with friends on it. >> and walk around wearing google glasses. >> my mother facebooked me, she

wants to play you. >> mom, i'm going to get him signed up for you, mom. >> let's get it on. >> come on, mom. >> bring it. >> let's go. >> she's really good. just to warn you. >> want to play words with mom or words with friends. >> words with friends. you can chat with her too. >> does she want to be his friend? >> she loves barnicle. who doesn't love barnicle. >> everybody loves barnicle. >> he has friends. >> he's got one in baltimore in my mother. >> all right. up next, the must-read opinion pages. mom, reach out to barnicle. and if you think you're running at a good pace on the treadmill, check this out. news you can't use later in the hour. guess how fast he's running right now. >> that's me at the reebok club. >> you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. mine was earned in djibouti, africa. 2004.

vietnam in 1972.

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all right. there's the white house in washington, d.c. it's not raining there. that's a good sign. let's do a couple op-eds or at least one. "the wall street journal" marty feldstein writes the fed should start to taper now. although interest rates have increased, they are still abnormally low. investors and financial institutions are still accepting significant risks in order to enhance the yield on their portfolios by buying low quality corporate bonds, holding longer term bonds, making kov very nant light loans that increase the risk to lenders and imposing fewer restrictions on borrowers and also bidding up prices of agriculture land and other assets. the danger of mispricing risk, there is no way out without investors taking losses and the longer the process continues the bigger those losses could be.

that's why the fed should start tapering this summer before financial market distortions become even more damaging and steve ratner, i may as well have read something -- you know from hieroglyphics. i have no idea what any of that means. i turn to you. >> well, first, just to put it in context, what he's talking about is the extraordinary program the fed has had under way now for several years to buy bonds in order to force interest rates down, lower than they, obviously, otherwise would be. there are many of us who believe that was, you know, to use the famous saying, kroerds times call for extraordinary measures. this was one of those moments. and i think when historians write the history, bernanke will be seen, have done exactly the right thing to keep this economy going. we still have 7.6% unemployment. we are still growing below trend. first quarter gdp was revised down. inflation is almost nonexistent. and so i don't see the argument for why the feds should stop now.

i understand he's talking about asset bubbles and speculation, but the signs of that in this economy are very, very few and when he -- when bernanke hinted at stopping the program a few days ago, markets reacted very badly. i think he should stay on his path, continue this program, and -- bring it down in due course. >> i disagree a little bit. i think markets will react badly no matter when it happens because that's when people get the self-signal to take their profits and run or put their money somewhere else. for me it's a perspective, you want to see what the real economy looks like. you don't want any more artificial inflation -- not inflation in the economic sense, but inflating asset prices and everything else. so if we find out the economy can't real stand on its own two feet, what happens? maybe we go into a recession, maybe we have some other problems. but my issue is at least you know. and we can't just continue to debt fuel the stimulus here. i would like to know how good our economy is. i think that's the argument against it.

feldstein has a bunch of other reasons i don't necessarily agree with, but the headline i do. >> put this in context, you have a federal budget policy which is highly restrictive. the budget deficit coming down rapidly. by most economists' estimates that's cost the economy 1.5 percentage points on growth this year. what fed is doing is offsetting that with its monetary policy. >> we're not in a crisis anymore. >> we're not. >> that's bernanke's point. we're past, don't need to do this anymore, but as you say, unemployment is still there. i mean so who's right? is bernanke wrong? >> bernanke is saying the time will come when we don't need to do this anymore. he's not saying the time is now. unemployment has to be below 7% to 7.6% now. so no, we're not in crisis, but the economy has major issues and i don't see what's wrong with bernanke trying to help. that's his job. >> new job numbers coming out on friday. see any movement in the right direction? >> the economists are expecting the steady face, 150,000 jobs

created, unemployment, maybe ticks down to 10. we're still on a slow growth environme environment. >> you have charts today? >> something we talk about a lot on the show where are the jobs coming from? what's the role of small business, big business? we found interesting numbers to give you a sense of what's been going on out there for the last actually 20 years in the case. so let's start with the formation of new businesses. how many new businesses are being started in america. and so if you look at this chart, the blue line at the top is what they call births or creations of new businesses and you can see going back to the '90s it rose pretty steadily. we had a bit of a dip down here during the dotcom bust, but then it -- during the bubble period it grew again. and consistently stayed above the red line which is the number of business failures. so you had more being created than failed. maybe not completely surprisingly, during the financial crisis, that reversed itself. you had many more failures than

created. but what's also troublesome is that the rate of creation has not really come back very much. it's come back a little bit. but not nearly back to the levels it was before this all started. and so that has implications for jobs as you can see on the next page. this is -- on the next slide. this is a chart showing what percent of the jobs that are created in this country right now, on friday, for example, are coming from start-ups as opposed to existing businesses. and you can see that during, again, back in the '90s, consistently about 30% of our new jobs were coming from new companies, from start-ups. it has fallen off dramatically during the financial crisis and has come back essentially not at all. so from 30% of our jobs being created by start-ups we now have about 22% of our jobs being created by startups. and that is part of why we have this slow employment growth. >> so what would be among the

principle reasons for the lessening? >> great question. >> fear? fear of starting a business? >> depends on who -- which dog you have in the fight. conservatives say to which government regulation, the affordable care act, talk about dodd/frank. i don't put a lot in that. i think the basic answer is what you said, fear. everybody had a near-death experience in 2008 and they're scared of coming back and that includes people who provide capital to some of these young start-ups. a lot of venture capital around, but not as much for people trying to come right out of the box with a new business. that is exactly right. there's stuff we can do. let's look at the last chart because another thing we talk a lot about on this show is where are the jobs? is it big business, small business? who's providing the jobs in this economy? and what you see is interesting in terms of, again, the trends going back to the same period in the early '90s when back then, the percent of jobs that came from companies with fewer than 250 employees, was over 50%.

that came from smaller companies -- i'm sorry from bigger companies was under 50% but over this period it has reversed itself. so today about 52% of americans work for companies employing more than 250 people and 48% from those smaller companies. and so it is still a fact that most americans work for so-called big business. >> as we do. right here. >> as we do. >> all right. coming up, the news story that led to these interesting graphics. it's news you can't use and it's coming up right now.

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all right. it is time for some news you can't use. you know you want. a local news station in new zealand could learn a lot from our wonderful graphics team upstairs. the network's animation of a dog attack could possibly be the worst graphic ever or the best. >> puncturing it. the cop changed the tire but when he returned the bull mastiff again attacked his tire, again puncturing it. another sergeant came to the officer's aid but he too had his tire attacked and punctured. so an animal control officer was cull called in, but he too had his

tire attacked. >> bruno 4, tires 0. >> when we hit the treadmill around here, 5, 6 miles per hour, sometimes push it to 6 or 7 if we're feeling good about ourselves. look at robert, the 28-year-old rookie on the arizona cardinals puts everybody to shame. he clocked in here running at 25 miles per hour. that's faster than the bionic woman and also usain bolt. at the 2012 olympics. look at that. he can hurt himself. >> scary to watch. >> and who knew they got treadmills to go that fast. >> mine does. >> does yours? >> where is your shirtless video? >> it's home where it belongs. >> oh, man. >> shirtless runner man. >> jeff, how fast can you run? jeff greenfield up next, right there. i want you to run from that platform over to this stage at 25 miles per hour and we'll be right back with "morning joe." i'm the next american success story. working for a company

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for more information including cost support options, call 1-888-xarelto or visit goxarelto.com. >> one of our local news channels in l.a. was at a youth swimming club this morning. watch this as reporter al eisner learns the extreme importance of the words get set. >> they got a lot of people here that love to swim. members of the la mer rad da swim team. wave to everybody.

let's you guys take off. on your mark, go. >> that's like the start of "morning joe." welcome back to "morning joe." steve ratner, reverend al sharpton with us. with us on set news columnist gene green felds and in washington, associate editor of the "washington post" and msnbc political analyst eugene robinson. takes about eight minutes to get through all of your titles. >> okay. go. >> let's hit it hard because let's talk about immigration. new stuff on this, eugene. tlushgts the immigration -- throughout the immigration push marco rubio has been a lightning rod. as the bill enters the house he and other republicans are getting cover from right leaning groups from new ads led by haley barber and the american action network. take a peek. >> our current immigration system is a disaster.

what we have now is de facto amnesty. there is a better way. billions of new border security funding, it toughest enforcement measures in history. no food stamps, no welfare, no obama care. >> lindsey graham and immigration, what's he fighting for? 20,000 new border patrol agents, double the size of the security fence, electronic verification so employers can't hire illegal workers. that's what lindsey graham is doing. >> gene, you have a piece in the post about immigration, saying in part, we're quoting the senate did the sensible thing last week and passed a bill allowing law abiding immigrants here without papers to stay, and eventually become citizens. whether the house follows suit may depend on whether speaker john boehner has finally had his fill of washington's most thankless job. seems to me it should be an easy call. leading the house republican majority is like trying to get a bunch of cats to do synchronized swimming. surely boehner's gluttony for

punishments has limits. if the past is any guide boehner's wish to follow the majority of house republicans is as good as gold until he breaks it. this time however the issue is so fraught he would face a rebellion. shortly after the house passed the senate immigration bill irate tea party conservatives could depose boehner from his post, the nation would get the immigration reform it needs and boehner wouldn't have to teach cats to swim anymore. it's a win-win. >> what are what the chances of voting on a bill before the end of the year? >> the way they're doing business is pretty dim. unless boehner has a change of heart and strategy, it's all on him basically. he says he won't just bring up the senate bill which would be the easiest thing to do. he says well, we're going to have the house develop its own immigration bill. good luck with that. and i can't imagine it would look anything like the senate bill. i can't imagine it would be something that would fulfill the

basic requirement of reform which is to come up with something that brings these 11 million people out of the shadows and gives them some sort of legal status. and i don't think a majority of the house republicans is down for that idea. so where are we? i'm not quite sure. >> it's occurred to me for some time that speaker boehner has an ipod. johnny paycheck's famous song has probably been on it. take this job and -- because, you know, if you're old enough as some of us to remember what speaker of the house essentially ran his congress, that was the essence of it. you had your party members behind you and it was give and take. what we've had here, in the last couple of years, is an infusion of republicans -- and i think by the way they are principle, i don't think this is political, i think they believe in a lot of -- but what they believe is

so alien to the traditional accommodations of politics in congress it's created a sea change. it's a revolution. the idea of saying we'll give a little, get a little. they said when they were running particularly in 2010 when the republicans took the house we're not going there to compromise. no compromise was almost a slogan of these folks. so if you're the speaker, trying to get something done and if your party is it telling you on the other side we have to do immigration reform or politically we're doomed talk about a thankless job, that's an understatement. >> really. >> what's interesting to me, gene mentioned the phrase in the shadows, if -- apparently and standing on principle, no compromise, which what is they're doing, if you take a walk down nearly any street in nearly any major city of over 50 or 75,000 people in this country, you encounter hundreds of people from other countries, recently arrived here, and what's in the shadows is any hope that the republicans can win the presidency unless they

deal with immigration. >> you're absolutely right. i think the problem is exactly that. i think that the fact that they are true believers and that they are principle in what they believe does not mean that they have a political future. they will, in my opinion, not go forward with an immigration bill, it will be the absolute best climate to go into the midterm elections for the democrats because they will continue to al knee nate a major vote that they would need in the midterm elections. >> the last time -- i mean 2012 was really -- as we look at the numbers, the demographics, the last viable chance republicans had at the white house. >> only room for growth. >> to change america. >> but to come back to what jeff said, these folks don't care. you know, gingrich had an expression in the late '90s the perfectionist caucus, people that don't compromise, my way or the highway. but given the terrible politics for the republicans last time

over immigration i don't know, but i could venture a guess that they will pass a bill. it will be their bill. it will be completely unacceptable to the senate. but at least they'll have something they can go out and say we passed an immigration bill. we passed a better immigration bill because we required 100% border security and all the stuff that is untenable to people on the more moderate side of the caucus. so i think we're all pessimistic about a bill getting outs of congress but the strategy of the republicans in the house isn't clear and i think they could pass something. >> here's where i disagree, maybe not disagree, the midterms and the presidential elections now die vurnlg so strikingly they're almost like two different countries. the midterm elections with the immigration bill failing, with the house republicans not cooperating, could still be a very good midterm election for the republican. not just gerrymandering. the way we distribute ourselves as a country, every reason to think republicans will keep the house, there's every reason to think they will do better in the

senate, increase their margin and take it over and may encourage the principled or perfection caucus the people are for us. you get to the presidential election where the demographics are different, distribution of power is different and they can be dooming themselves. it's a very unusual kind of politics i think. >> they're going to keep -- >> the problem is, the republicans, look at the demographics and you see they can't hope to win national elections going forward. however, they can win local elections and those races are local elections in safe districts and they're heavily red. i think jeff is absolutely right the republicans are not doomed in 2014 it's just going forward in the presidential years that become really, really tough for them. especially with the demographics of the latino population, asian american population, the young groups that are going to age into the voting population and white republican voters frankly are aging out of the voting population because -- which is called death.

it's an older party and they're dying. that's going to continue through the years and decades. >> all right. we want to get to the latest on the adventures of edward snowden. india rejecting snowden's request for asylum, one of 20 countries he's applied to according to wikileaks. he's stuck in a moscow airport and withdrawn his request for asylum in russia. this comes after putin said he would be welcomed in his country only under one condition, stop hurting our american partners by publishing classified documents. former president bush who put many of the nsa programs in place spoke about the threat snowden poses to the u.s. >> i know he damaged the country. the obama administration will deal with that. >> do you think it's possible for one man to damage the security of the nation? >> i think he damaged the security of the country. i put the program in place to protect the country and one of the certainties is civil liberties were guaranteed.

>> so what protections, you know, now that we see president bush talking about the protections of the country, what has been compromised? because we know we steal secrets. >> yeah. >> what's -- what has been compromised? >> well again, as we were talking last hour, and this is from people who i have spoken to in the intelligence community, again, who reiterate that it probably, more than likely, he knew what he had gathered but not the full extent of what he gathered. and what he gathered would come to no surprise to any intelligence agency in the world. what he does do, as president bush alluded to, spoke to, it provides intelligence services and al qaeda has a type of intelligence service, it provides them with a road map of how we collect data and the targets of our collection. that's the principle danger to us. >> jeff, what do you think? >>. >> i don't mean for this to sound flippant, but i keep

thinking one of the abiding mysteries of this story is how a guy like this gets control of so much information. i keep thinking back to joseph eller's great novel "catch 22" where it turns the entire war is being run by expfc. there's something about this security state we built over the last decade or maybe more, but certainly since 2011, that has so much classified information, so much you really do not want to get out to the public -- this is not an absolute civil liberties -- whatever you can find and distribute. that's not a sensible way to do it. we have delivered somehow the capacity to get and distribute this information to people at every conceivable level. >> the interesting aspect of what you spoke to, i asked several people about this over the course of the last couple weeks, a couple interesting aspects, one, the huge volume of classified material we have, a certain percentage of it ought not to be classified. there's no reason it ought to be classified to this -- at this

point. the second thing is, the growth since september 11th of consultants, of farming out intelligence work, to independent agencies, like the company that -- >> booz allen hamilton. >> that he worked for. and the third element is, how does someone like him get access to this? i asked that question of someone who would know. the answer was, that if you come in to the nsa or to langley, to the cia, and you have an ear ring and you're covered with tattoos and you're a high school dropout and you say, what are you doing here? you say, i can hack into anybody's computer, they say you're hired. that's who they hire. that's who's proficient at this stuff and how he gets in. >> so clearly we have to go back and review these procedures and who has classified information or doesn't. but i think the fundamental point is the point that you made and president bush made, which is this guy damaged our country. that we did provide this road

map as you say to anyone who was reading any newspaper as to how we go about our business and i think that i'm with president bush on this, i think this guy is a criminal and if we can bring him to justice we ought to be doing that. >> i think there's a balance here though. >> a problem when we look at the overall, some of us concerned about civil liberties, but also about security. i don't find great comfort in george bush telling me that they looked out for civil -- our civil liberties, but on the other side, i think that if we have people at this level that can get things that compromise america's security that is frightening and needs to be dealt with in a very, very short-term period. >> gene, you want to say? >> yeah. there's a balance here, though. let's grant the point that some damage was done to our security by letting enemies know what targets were or not -- i'm

entirely sure they couldn't have figured that out, but maybe they couldn't have. on the other hand, i did not know that a lot of data collection, for example, was going on because of secret interpretation by secret courts of secret laws that we know nothing about. that whole process inside the fisa court, the intelligence court, that's completely opaque -- president obama said this is transparent, it's not in the least transparent. and i think that goes way, way too far, beyond our traditions, even in war time, even given the need for security, you know, secret interpretations of secret laws, it just doesn't -- that's not us. and i think it's a surface, frankly, that we know some of this stuff now. >> let me just say two things. first, no one has suggested that anything that happened under president obama's administration, as the same from president bush's administration, was illegal. it was all done in conformity

with the laws as they exist today. i would agree with gene that the fisa court process, which gene actually we could have known about, it was out there, everybody understood i think that this existed, but the fact that there had been 30,000 requests to the fisa court over the last 30 years, and i think something like 11 were denied, does tell you that process is perhaps not as rigorous it needs to be. the president said we'll have a national conversation about it and we'll have one. but i think it is important to recognize the distinction between the bush program which did violate the law in parts and the obama program which was in conformity to the law. you have to not like the law as opposed -- >> or not like the way the law was stretched. one of my points, this law has been stretched and pulled and tugged in ways that the people who wrote the law, never contemplated. yet they didn't know about it. like sensenbrenner who said gee, we never thought we were doing that when we passed the patriot act. >> all of it leaves the question in the air, when or if or might

the president of the united states, president obama, when he returns and he's on route back to the united states now, address the nation as to the facts of this as far as he can speak to the facts of this, about how we all still live in a very dangerous world and here's why we do what we do. for those answers we're going to have to wait. chuck todd, he's going to have to wait in africa because the president and the entire party, they got on a plane, they came home, they left chuck there. he's there. he's at the nbc news chief white house correspondent and still hanging around, africa. i'm sorry for your trouble. we'll chip in here and get you a ticket and get you out of there, buddy. >> it's only going to take me 20 hours. we have a 20-hour one fuel stop flight at home. feel sorry for me a little bit more, will you? >> chuck, as to what we were discussing around the table, is there any sense within the white house, for the need for the president to address the country

about that theme, about how we still live in dangerous world and what snowed didn't harms us to some extent but there's a large element out there that wants to harm us? >> well, you know, mike, there is a huge gap between the conversation you guys are having, i was listening to this and you were talking about the president needs to do this and the president needs to do that, versus what the white house thinks they need to do. the white house thinks that this is a overcovered story by the media, they're overly fascinated because it's international espionage, and it's a manhunt and started in hong kong and all around and it's playing out like a movie. and, you know, he -- he believes, and this is coming from the president in these conversations i can tell by having with staff, he believes he had this speech, that he discussed this, talking about drones, talking about all of the different balances that he admits that he was more critical of when he was a candidate and then you go through it and you figure out what you use and how

you go about it to make sure it conforms. he believes he has done what you guys say he has done. and i'm detecting that they're getting more than a little annoyed that this story is taking up all of their time and stepping on all sorts of other issues that they like to talk about because they believe that everything they've done is legal, they believe that congress has been well informed, they believe the process is fairly clear. they believe they've been more transparent than before. for their missing, there is a huge perception gap i think between where the white house is and opinion leaders are on this conversation. i hear what you guys are saying. i think they don't realize this perception gap or they don't appreciate it. >> i think that's the critical point, chuck. struck me about the recent job approval numbers was how badly the president had fallen among young people, one of the strongest constituencies and i'm convinced -- i can't say i have proof of this -- that it's

because of this nsa story and it's a large story. for younger people, they live on these devices. they live on their iphones and their laptops and their tablets. and for them, not just them, but for a lot of people, the notion of just how pervasive this kind of interception is, even if it's true they are only getting numbers and they're not listening in on phone calls, i think has been a profound, harlful effect on the president and when we talk about the kind of conversation that the president may or may not want to have, chuck, if they don't realize for some people, either because they don't fully understand it or they do and they're worried, if the president can't make the case your privacy is not in danger, you've got to understand how this works i think that's a political problem. >> i disagree with you based upon one reason and one reason only. i don't think people under the age of -- let's pick a number, 25. have any sense of what privacy is all about. they're on facebook. i'm having a meatlope sandwich,

a picture of me at the beach. >> we do disagree. i think that's what they call in fancy terms cognitive dissew dance. on the other hand they don't want anybody else checking them. i think that's hurt them. >> the other thing i want to ask you chuck, before we let you go to find a flight home, what you were talking about within the white house, within the context of the presidency and their sense of the fisa court and what they're doing and everything like that, i was told recently, within the past couple weeks by someone fairly high up in the intelligence community quote/unquote you people, meaning the media, the way we're covering this, the extent of our coverage, the extent of our discussions, we the media, have no clue as to how this program actually operates, no clue. that was the phrase. so is there a arrogance within the white house about this stuff that precludes them from saying okay, here's what we're doing

and why we're doing it? >> you know, it's funny, i don't know if i want to refer to it as arrogance or an incelerity. it goes to this thing, they believe they've dealt with this, have explained this and they somehow think we in the media are being tabloid-ish about it because we're so intrigued by the espionage aspect of it, right. made-for-tv movie, edward snowden in the part two of the terminal star tom hanks. and we're so caught up in that aspect of it that they think we're doing a poor job of explaining the program, but again, you know, we're not the ones that went before congress, jim clapper saying, you know, not answering a full question and, of course, the president thinks that -- ands the white house thinks that ron wyden set clapper up and put him in a bad position so he's not mad at clapper, he's mad at wyden in this case. the fact of the matter is they've not had an adult

conversation and going to your point about privacy you and jeff were having a conversation about, don't forget, i think it's cute that we're referring to facebook and twitter, you know, the young folks, they do care about privacy, they are concerned about this stuff, so that's why they're using things called snap fish where the photographs disappear in ten seconds. >> snap -- >> i do think folks under 30 do care about privacy, are worried about it and i'm with jeff here. i think this has had more of a personal impact that people realize because, you know, young kids, just like all americans, but particularly the youth, care about their privacy because this is their entire -- i'm hoping up a blackberry, i'm not, i should be holding up an iphone, this is their entire world. >> i don't disagree with that. what i mean they have a different definition of privacy than we do. >> right. >> they're happy to share moments -- they don't want the government. >> anyway, chuck todd, anxious

to get back to the dodge, we appreciate you joining us from the continent and hopefully will get back at some point soon. gene, thanks for joining us as well. we'll look for your column on-line in "the washington post." jeff, unfortunately you have to stay with us for a while. okay? i'm sorry. that's the way it goes. and coming up, we're going to honor the heros who went toward the wildfires when everyone else was running away. more on the life and legacy of 19 firefighters lost in arizona. and up next, campbell brown is sounding the alarm when it comes to the safety of kids in the classroom. she'll tell us some of the stories that drove her to action. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. i think she tried to kill us. [ sighs ] are you kidding me? no, it's only 15 calories. [ male announcer ] with reddi wip, fruit never sounded more delicious.

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they all want to be mayor, but who has the guts to stand up to the teachers unions?

a staggering 128 cases of sexual misconduct by teachers or school employees in new york city schools. all involving students. many of those recommended by investigators for removal, are still in our schools. what do the unions do? they protect them. they're helping those teachers keep their jobs. it's a scandal. and the candidates are silent. demand action. >> that was an ad for the parents transparency project, an education advocacy group. here with us now, former news anchor an co-founder of the transparency project campbell brown. campbell wrote in the new yo"ne daily news" about what inspired the group and how -- tell us. >> this started for me a little over a year ago. there were a number of cases that got a lot of attention in the new york papers about teachers who had been engaged in all kinds of behavior, sexual misconduct with students, who couldn't be fired. and at the time the mayor made,

you know -- brought a lot of attention to the issue, talked about legislation that was introduced in albany that would change the law to allow the chancellor in new york to fire these teachers and get them out of the classroom. the way the system is designed right now, it's decided by an arbitrator instead of the person who's the head of the department. and in many cases, we have teachers, i mean i can give you plenty of examples, who were found guilty of inappropriate touching, sexual banter with kids, who weren't fired from their jobs. given light sentences and sent back to the classroom. >> you write about a person named christopher ash, former librarian in new york city, on april 15th, the press reported ash had been arrested and charged with plotting to kidnap, torture to rape women and children. made headlines in '09 found to have engaged in multiple separate incidents of inappropriate of touching of students while working at a local high school. during the arbitration hearing. the arbiter looked over this. he admitted attending the

american man/boy love association and the arbiter overseeing that case gave him a sixth month suspension. >> this is an organization that advocates for legalizing sex for men and young boys. he admitted going to two meeting of this, found guilty of inappropriate touching of kids and sill only gets a six month suspension. the arbitrator says he needs counseling and to go back to a job overseeing children. i don't think that's right. >> what happens to a teacher right now if that teacher is charged, if there's a felony arrest? >> so, that's not the issue that we're dealing with because in a case like this, unfortunately we've seen a couple cases in the last couple weeks in new york where teachers have been arrested, a teacher recently charged with raping a 10-year-old kid at a school. you know about this. in that case the criminal justice system takes over. the police come in, they arrest. it's mandated that teacher be

fired. what we're talking about are things that don't -- aren't criminal acts, aren't defined as criminal acts, a teacher who -- these are real examples, a teacher who asked a little girl to give him a striptease. a teacher who was found to have -- this is the arbitrator described it at best, this inappropriate touching that was at best inappropriate and the arbitrator's words at worst, pedophilia. these are teachers allowed to stay in the system, be sent right back to their classroom in many cases -- >> what role does a principal have in this? can a principal remove a teacher or does the -- >> there's a very specific process for how this plays out. that's what we're focused on, trying to highlight the process because i think a lot of parents don't even know that this is the way it works. where -- and accusation is made or allegation is raised with regard to a teacher or school employee. a special investigator comes in and looks at this to figure out, you know, is there anything there. there's going to be cases where some kid gets a bad grade on a

test and makes up a story. you want to make sure that those cases don't get before an arbitrator or have a hearing. once an investigator determines something happened here, he substantiates the accusation, the department of education decides do we want to fire this person or not. if they decide we have to rhee move this teacher they get a hearing before an arbitrator. that arbitrator has the final say. in other cases with other public employees, the arbitrator makes a recommendation to the head of the department who decides whether to fire. but only with regard to the teachers. the arbitrator has the final say. and in many cases these ash traitors are making really bad rulings. >> when it comes -- >> i think she raises a good point. i don't know that i agree with the conclusions about the unions. i think there's -- >> why not? why don't you? >> let me make my point. you'll find out. i think there's enough blame to go around. i don't think that the administration of the mayor has been as vigilant as it could be.

i don't think the chance lor has been as vigilant as it could be. i think the union has defended situations i don't agree but i think that teachers deserve to be defended. i mean, i work right now, my group has done two schools with the chancellor, though the mayor has amnesia about it because we're fighting over stop and frisk, but that's another issue, but i think the kids must be protected but i don't think you do that at the expense of teachers having the right to defend themselves. but the teachers that do anything even what you say that is not criminal, ought to be absolutely removed and i think the arbitrators are in many cases being unfair. >> so -- but there's -- >> zero tolerance policy. protects the kids 1.1 million kids in the new york school system, how do you implement -- of course the teachers have a right to defend themselves but in a lot of cases profiled here, teachers have been found guilty of inappropriate action. they've just been slapped on the

wrist, suspended. >> which is wrong. which is why i'm saying the arbitrators and the administrators as well as the teachers unions i think have to be challenged. i don't think we should just deal with it as a union problem. >> there's a simple solution to this problem. okay. changing the teachers union contract. right now, the reason that the teachers union says we have a zero tolerance policy, we think -- what they're saying is wrong. there are -- the teachers union will argue that the chancellor is trying to get rid of people that aren't found guilty. that's not true. the teachers union's contract has a narrow definition of what sexual misconduct means which is why these cases we're talking about, the banter and inappropriate touching, doesn't fall within that definition. all we want to do is change the contract. expand the definition. say these things fall under it. then change a state law. >> what falls under it? >> if a teacher asks a girl to give him a striptease that teacher ought to be fired. >> that's not a bad idea. >> i think it's so common sense.

why then is the teachers union fighting this? >> i don't know the rationale on either side. i just think that to single out the unions like just dealing with a union contract, but not dealing with the fact that the administration tolerated a lot of this or at least did not [ inaudible ] a lot of this is only telling half the story. >> the union is the one that's fighting this change. the administration isn't fighting the change. why -- >> well -- i've known a lot of situations brought to the chancellors, i mean we just went through the catastrophe of miss black, a lot of situations i can tell you that has been brought that was not dealt with and i'm one who has worked with them in certain areas. >> ten seconds. >> as the son of a former public schoolteacher and librarian and union member i have to say on this one, campbell is right. the teachers union in the city of new york has enormous political power. the ad you run is pointing that out. they've finished competing for the union endorsement. they are one of the most effective political organizations.

i think it's a mystery to some extent why the teachers union doesn't say on this one, right, we've got to change the contract. adhere to their benefit as well, i think. >> we should point out, reverend, that msnbc is partnering with the national association of free clinics and you, the reverend al sharpton, from new orleans at a free health care clinic tomorrow. reverend. >> we're going to new orleans at a free clinic. so many people need free health care and we're going down, we're asking people to help, just send in a dollar. we posted here on the screen, where you can send it. send in a dollar and help us to help people. this is a very serious problem. many, many people will be hemlpd by this. i'll be there tomorrow. i'm going to pass the plate and take your dollar with me, mike barnicle. >> i'll give you two. >> $2. >> double or nothing. >> absolutely. >> absolutely. >> campbell brown, thanks very much. >> thanks for having me on. good to see you. >> thank you. >> is up next, a look at the

lives of the 19 men who paid the ultimate sacrifice to help save others from the wildfires in arizona. rett galloway. he's serving his guests walmart choice premium steaks. but they don't know it yet. they will. it's a steak-over. steak was excellent. very tender. melts in your mouth. it was delicious. tonight you are eating walmart steak. what???!! good steak. two thumbs up? look, i ate all of mine. it matches any good steakhouse if not better. walmart choice premium steak in the black package. it's 100% money back guaranteed. try it for your next backyard barbecue.

i told him through our text messages that our daughter had been saying when she was watching the thunderstorms, she said mommy, daddy really needs to see this. i let him know via text message she had said this and he said i really wish i could see it. we could use some rain over here. that was the last i heard from him.

i sent him a reply that said, will you be sleeping out there tonight? and, of course, there was no reply. >> that was the widow of andrew ashcraft, one of the 19 firefighters killed battling the wildfire in yarnell, arizona. this morning, we're learning more about the brave firefighters who gave the last full measure. at 43 years old eric marsh was the veteran of the group, being described as compassionate and caring about his xrup the best at what he did. kevin woyjeck was the youngest, following the foot steps of his father joe a captain of the l.a. department. the firehouse was his second home where he would accompany his dad on ride alongs. chris mackenzie followed his father into fire fighting and previously served in the u.s. forest service. he was an avid snowboarder. wade parker, 22, wanted to be a

firefighter just like his dad who forks for a nearby department. joining the hotshots meant the world to him. 26-year-old shawn misner came from a fire fighting family as well. his grandfather and ung really firefighters. two months he was going to be a proud father to new baby boy. anthony rose, just 23, was expecting his first child with his fiancee. rose earned his ged on-line and went to work for the local fire department. 25-year-old william warneke and his wife roxanne were expecting their first child in december. a four-year marine corps veteran, he served a tour in iraq. another marine, travis tur byfill loved to bring his daughters around town to the gym or the local dairy queen. they just loved their dad.

as a former marine, jesse steed was used to putting his life on the line for others, but his sense of humor that won over his fellow firefighters. scott norris, was described by friends as an ideal gentleman, the kind of guy you would be okay with dating your daughter. multi sport athlete, john percin was described as brave with an unforgettable a laugh. clayton whitted gave his time at a youth group. according to friends his personality would light up a room. he married had is wife christy in 2011. described as shy, but funny, dustin dedford joined the crew in 2012 and worked hard to rise to the physical challenges of the job. travis carter was the strongest of the crew, legend at the local

gym. despite his monster strength he was best known for his humility. 23-year-old robert caldwell was known as the brains in the group. he recently married in november. and leaves behind a 5-year-old stepson. robert's cousin grant mckee generous by nature with his possessions and time. while training to be an emt, no one was surprised when he asked for extra shifts in the emergency room. joe thurston was said never to shy away from a challenge and had all the qualities of a great firefighter. he wasn't good at any one thing. he was great at many things. he was able to touch a lot of lives. and it has been said garret zuppiger who loved to be funny treated every day like a gift. "morning joe" will be right back. mine was earned in djibouti, africa. 2004.

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here with us now marine veteran spokesperson for hiring our heros dakota mayor the first living marine to receive the prestigious medal of honor and bing west, combat veteran himself and assistant secretary of defense for the reagan administration, they quote where the into the fire firsthand account of the battle into the afghan war" now out in paperback. joining us military analyst colonel jack jacobs. dakota, the double difficulty of getting companies to hire veterans who are skilled in leadership and everything like that is compounded i would think

by the fact that the economy is kind of slow in terms of hiring in general, is it not? >> you know, i think -- mine there's lots of jobs out there. everywhere you go people are looking they are say they're hiring. i think the big problem is they don't understand what they're getting in a veteran. it's hard, we don't come out and talk about what they're good at and translate what we did in the military to civilian washg work force, it's hard to do. unless someone teaches them how to do that and teaching a company what they get inside a veteran it's like ap gap we need to fill. >> is the support system there? i've done a lot of stories like the group the mission continues and talking about how they're trying to provide that support, that stability, or at least a road map for when our vets come back to be able to use those skills that you talk about and highlight them in the proper ways that make them more attractive to the work force some. >> yeah. i mean i think there's a lot of them out there. with toyota and the chamber of commerce we teamed up, we built the resume engine, you know,

going out trying to do the personal branding of getting these guys to brand themselves to come out. yeah, i mean, i think there's a lot of support systems out there. which ones work and which ones don't are the problem. you get a veteran and you turn him him away, it's unfortunate, you know. >> do you two guys think that part of the problem in terms of hiring veterans or anybody, specifically veterans, is that many companies -- the country as a whole, the congress as a whole, too few people who have never served in the military running companies, serving in congress, so there's no sense of the value of what leadership you can learn as a veteran or any place in the country. >> in world war ii, you had this huge network.

that doesn't exist now. still, in all fairness, the job hirings now, because everyone is becoming acutely aware of it, for the veterans has skyrocketed. it's coming up. we have to be careful in our own beaurocracies like the v.a., we don't indicate you served you're somehow a cripple. see what i mean? part of this is a self-defeating mechanism inside our own beaurocracies. >> two things relate to that. one, i think the government itself is complicit in perpetuating the myth that all you have to do is put a uniform on somebody and the next thing you know he's mentally deficient in some fashion because he's been exposed to war. and the second problem revolves around your suggestion that there's an insufficient number of people in corporate america with military experience who don't realize that the resource that's available is replete with experience. there's nothing like military service that gives young people authority and responsibility at an early age.

we have to stop perpetuating the myth that giving a job to a veteran is charity. >> when you're 19 years old, you're leading a six, seven-man squad. >> that's one of the biggest things we wrote the book the way we did. we wanted to come out and show awareness. get it out and let people read it. same thing with jack, we come out and write books because a lot of veterans don't want to come out and talk about it. we have to. we have to go out and talk about it and make people aware of the struggles we go through and stuff like that, just like we did in the book. try to show that just because we all go through struggles in our life, i think anyone sitting here said they didn't, they would be wrong. we have to show them we all go through struggles and it's part of being un-american and being a human being and make people aware that it's not something different. >> what made you want to partner up with dakota? we talk about the connective tissue, the generational divide of what it's like to fight modern day war as opposed to

what we saw during vietnam and prior wars. what did you learn from each other in this process? >> i knew dakota out there. i was the old grunt. he was the young grunt. but it was the boston accent that i had to teach him. it was hard from kentucky. >> he's not from boston? he sounds just like he's from boston. >> when i was out there, the company commander i was with said, you haven't met our pit bull. that's how i know dakota. he was known as the pit bull out there. >> quickly, how much do you think it affects potential employers to jack's point, ptsd. they see a veteran and they think, ptsd. >> i try to tell veterans, what you do and say when you're a veteran, if you give a bad taste as a veteran, that's their

perspective of everyone. i think the problem is ptsd is real. there's a lot of claims out there that it's the easy way to get money. we need to stand up and hold people accountable. just because you go to war and just because you have ptsd doesn't mean you stop living your life. there's no reason to stop it. we've got to go out and till hold these guys accountable to be americans and doing their part in society and still doing what's right. >> mike and thomas, there is one thing about holding people accountable, i think we have to hold our own beaurocracies accountable. in our book, we have two instances of where it's still open in the book what happened. there was this capital in the army by the name of swinson who stood side by side by dakota, he was put in four years ago. he criticized his superiors for north providing artillery support and the department of army has lost the

recommendation. we have an interpreter. we can't tell you his real name. four years ago he stood with dakota, did everything with dakota. the state department has refused for four years to give him a visa. >> the beaurocracy is shaping up. the book is "into the fire." thanks very much colonel jack jacobs. thanks very much as well dakota. >> i heard the accident out of dakota a little bit. >> pure boston. >> we're going to continue this conversation online. you can send us questions for sergeant meyer using the #mojoe. >> say wicked good. >> wicked good in the car. [ laughter ] >> you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. ♪

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west coast as you take a live look at new york city. back with us reverend al sharp and in washington robin wright. they may have been young but they were among the very best in the wildfire. >> it's a tragic story. the president starting off taking comments about the tragedy that happened there. this fire burning out of control there. ongoing questions about how an elite team of firefighters were overcome by the flames in arizona.

all but one of them were killed on this team of 20. in prescott last night more than 1,000 people attended the memorial for the fallen there. earlier in the day others brought flowers outside team headquarters where the unit known as granite mountain hot shots was based. this is the tragic part. in their ages early 20s to mid-40s. many of them dads and husbands. for 21-year-old woyjeck fighting fires runs in the country. he hoped to someday work for the l.a. fire department where his dad was a captain. chris mackenzie, a firefighter. today his family has few answers about what happened on that hillside. >> something is wrong. that doesn't happen. they know what they are doing. he's showed me pictures of fires he ran from because they got too hot and they got too fast and they had to get out of there. why wasn't the same thing happening? so i don't know. >> just so sad. mike, there's one guy left.

>> out of 20. >> 19 out of 20. i personally have no frame of reference for such a tragedy because we're used to reading about fires and firefighters, fires here in large cities. but the explosive action of that fire, like a bomb exploding within woodlands. just incredible the accelerated pace of that fire that took 19 people. >> it's funny. in the news business we do images all the time of wildfires. we show them just for the dramatic pictures. we all look at first responders different after 9/11. when 24 people died in the moore, oklahoma, tornado. 19 firefighters. when you sit and think about it, it registers more. >> you're right. we're used to seeing los angeles, the hills around los angeles. fire in the hills. movie stars lost their homes. wow, isn't that something. >> first responders, i think

it's very significant what he said about until 9/11 a lot of people in new york -- i'm a new yorker -- never thought about it. then you kind of think during budget times and cuts and union negotiations they are there. they are on the line all the time. i think the president was right to really remind people of the real service they are doing. to see 19 lose their lives in minutes the way this spread is something that's unreal. >> the other big story that's capturing all the headlines we see on the papers today, what's happening in egypt following days of widespread demonstrations. egypt's president is now facing this ultimatum, either give in to the public's demands or else president morsi has 48 hours to peacefully reconcile the nation's differences. otherwise the military's generals will intervene seeking their own road map to restore the peace. members of morsi's political party, muslim brotherhood are calling the deadline a, quote, military coup. this is amazing to think we've

only been a year out of democratically elected president mors morsi's rule where people rose up to get rid of mubarak. now we see them in the streets doing this to get rid of mohamed morsi. lets talk to robin. robin, your reaction to this. the military getting involved means this ultimatum will be met one way or the other. this is the way they got rid of mubarak. >> the presidency issued a statement saying -- >> robin wright in washington. >> good morning. something wrong with the sound. >> we can hear her. >> msomething wrong with my sound. >> let her talk barnicle. >> i'll get the q tips and be right back. >> good morning. this is a turning point for egypt. very, very important moment. the military issued very tough language that in a way gives the

presidency a real challenge in how it responds, because the military basically has come down on the side of the millions, maybe tens of millions who turned out in the streets of egypt on sunday. the presidency did issue a statement last night indicating it plans to stand firm. but it's hard to see how president morsi will salvage his presidency when you have that kind of outpouring, even larger than the protest against president mubarak. the presidency argues that morsi was elected democratically and that it intends to try to launch a national reconciliation dialogue. that's really been on the table for months now. it's difficult to see how the option is going to respond in a way that allows morsi to stay in power. >> you know what's incredible, steve ratner, as we watch these pictures, and we've seen pictures prior to this, and it was nice hearing robin -- i got it fixed now.

millions of people on the streets of cairo, you have an entire geographical arc from turkey, syria, lebanon, israel, egypt, even into libya. nearly aflame in revolution or unrest. egypt, what is going on in egypt in what is the next step for egypt. if the army, as robin alluded to, said 48 hours. 48 hours is going to pass and nothing is going to happen. >> i'm not sure nothing is going to happen. you've got more people in the streets that voted for morsi. you've got the general is being clear he's got to go. it's not obvious to me how he stays. what's obviously interesting you've got president obama standing behind morsi, as i've seen his comments from africa and arguing unlike mubarak, morsi was democratically elected. this was supposed to be the transition for egypt to a democracy. i'm not sure where the u.s.'s interests lie and how we're

going to work our way through this and end up on the side of whoever is on top there. >> how does the united states work our way through this situation? haven't we not learned, we cannot export the league of women's voters and coca-cola to places where they don't want what we have, what we profess to do every day in our democracy. >> well, the administration last year, or two years ago, in 2011, at the time of theous ter of president mubarak had to make a tough call standing up against an ally of 30 years. it took 11 days to make that strategic decision and it responded in many ways to what was happening on the streets. the difference now is you have a democratically elected president. it's very interesting that the language from the white house supported not president morsi specifically but the idea of a democratically elected president. the solution in egypt clearly is, whether it's an interim president or have president morsi call for new elections,

that there is a way to see a democratic transition that would not put the military back in power. the military is not a viable solution either. there are not many attractive options. the question is how do you diffuse this tension. with the military and opposition now in one united camp, the president morsi will have to respond one way or another in ways that introduce major changes and potentially see him step aside. >> i think you've got a classic case of where you had an anti-mubarak, anti-repressive movement that has been misinterpreted by morsi and others as a pro them. sometimes reformers forget that the grievances of people are not for them as much as it is against the grievances. what morsi in a year and people feeling conditions haven't changed, he now becomes the object of what he benefited from. i think the challenge now is how

you have a democratic transition if we're going to transition, or how he deals with the issues that brought him to power in the first place. >> remember that conditions have not only not changed, they have gotten worse. economic collapse, fuel shortages, electricity shortages, currency falling apart, in flflationinflation, c food. underlying this social, there's the economy. >> the election, a coup happens to remove morse issuing, it's an absolute failure, then it becomes what it's always been there, which is something that doesn't follow the rule of law according to democratic standards. so you need to do it in a democratic way to make it work or else they regress in terms of how their politics work. >> one of the problems there as well is there's limited alternatives. opposition, traditional parties haven't been able torough ego ta

viable alternative. the question is not whether morsi steps down, who is capable or viable alternative. that's a big question to what happens to president morsi. >> can we show the video against of the helicopters flying over the crowds? that was a signal to the protesters that the army had given this ultimatum, they had stepped in. the clock is ticking down now, 48 hours. they were towing egyptian flags underneath. protesters went crazy knowing the fact that the army has now stepped in to intercede and give this ultimatum. robin, as you pointed out, the alternatives of what may come next, what are morsi's best options? >> morsi doesn't have many options right now. the danger is that the muslim brotherhood has waited 80 years, emerged from a banned movement. it believes its moment has arrived, it charges there are conspirators behind this effort,

that it's the old regime trying to make a comeback and to a certainly extent there are those from the old regime who are among the opposition who do want to make a come back. so this may not be solved in 48 hours. whether the military will move in and actually escort him out, that's not clear that that's what the military is talking about. it's really issued a political ultimatum, not one that looks like it will automatically necessarily engage in a coup. i think it's pretty tough on that 48 hours. we're now down to 24 hours. >> when the 24 hours have elapsed on the ground, those people looking up at the helicopters, they are still living in a country with a median age of 19.5 years, horrific unemployment, no prospect for jobs, an economy shattered by daily events around the world. that's what's going to be left for whoever takes over. >> it's very hard to see exactly where it goes from here. personally i think it's going to

be very hard for mori to stay there. i take the against at their word i think we'll see action from them pretty quickly. >> all right, guys. lets move on and figure what's going on with this story. edward snowden is speaking out publicly as the former nsa contractor leaks highly classified information about the government's surveillance program. snowden who is in a moscow airport has withdrawn his request for asylum in russia. this after president putin said he would be welcome only under one condition, stop hurting our american partners. spoke about the threat snowden poses to the u.s. >> i know he damaged the country. the obama administration will deal with it. >> do you think it's possible for one man to really damage the security of the nation? >> i think he damaged the security of the nation. i put the program in place to

protect the country. one of the certainties is civil liberties were guaranteed. >> it's really interesting about the fact that snowden is not getting any love from russia. the ecuadorian president has said they are not considering his asylum request, never intended to facilitate his flight from hong kong, apparently. the reason why ecuador was originally thought to be potentially an area of interest for him, julian assange living in the ecuadorian embassy in london. a lot of people wonder if snowden could get from the airport to ecuadorian embassy in russia, would they provide -- >> they don't seem to want him. they don't seem to want him. biden called the president of ecuador. we've threatened to take away free trade status, which has economic for them. he's got to be in ecuador as saying we don't want him either.

>> they clearly don't want him. what's interesting, when you take a stand of conscious, you've got to be willing to stand up for it. i agree that the government ought not be listening to american citizens under any president, including this one that i support. but at the same time, if you're going to take a stand, you should take a stand. a lot of people find it's complex, because at one level you don't want to pay for what you stood up for and come to the u.s. and say this is what i did, lets deal with it. at another level you find no refuge anywhere. it's kind of a tortiouous journ on a lot of people lets don't have spying. >> india rejected his request. he's apparently put out applications to 15 different countries seeking asylum. >> he's going to have to go to a bad place if he wants to find a

country for asylum. everyone talks about the impotence of the u.s. they are showing they are not in this case because wherever he goes will be trouble for that country. that's all across the world. >> coming up on "morning joe," executive pay packages through the roof. we'll ask ted mathis, president of the nation's largest life insurer what it all says about the u.s. economy. up next, nbc's lisa bloom and grio on what's going on in florida. >> kind of a carbon copy across the the east coast of what we had yesterday. it did lead to substantial airline delays, new york to d.c. philly coming in with a half hour average. you notice a few showers. it's really later this afternoon. you may see a better chance for some heavier showers and even some thunderstorms to line up. there's a look at the 48 hour expected rainfall. bigger totals, 1.5 to 2 inch in

the southeast. areas where we have saturated soil, promote some isolated flash flooding. light green areas flash flood watches in effect for today. temperatures at least cooler back towards the great lakes. again, a lot of 70s, even upper 70s across the east coast right now. by later on this afternoon, 80 degree readings. a good chance for thunderstorms. back towards chicago isolated thunderstorm today into wednesday. kind of a similar setup across a good stretch of the east coast, even down to the southeast. i should mention fourth of july models backing off on severe storms or storms at all across immediate northeast. that's looking better. trip to the southeast, including atlanta, could see a chance for showers. speaking of fourth of july, here is a quick look at the skies over washington, d.c. a lot more "morning joe" coming your way next. "i'm part of an american success story,"

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>> i was walking back to my truck. when i got to right about here, he yelled from behind me, the side of me, he said, yo, you got a problem? i turned around and said, no, i don't have a problem, man. >> where was he at? >> he was about there but walking towards me. >> this direction? >> yes, sir. like i said, i was already passed that, so i didn't see exactly where he came from. he was about where you were. i said, i don't have a problem.

i had my cell phone in a different pocket. i looked down in my pocket and he said, you've got a problem now. he was here and punched me in the face. >> that's a portion of a recording played for the jury in the george zimmerman murder trial in florida. the prosecution offered the tapes of zimmerman describing his encounter with trayvon martin. joining us now nbc legal analyst lisa bloom and manager of grio.com jerry reed. >> we'll start in a little while with a witness we had just, the lead detective in the case. let me start with you. he was called to be a prosecution witness but he's helping the defense. >> i thought he was the best prosecution witness so far, that's because the jury got to see through a videotape george zimmerman having to answer some hard questions, finally. he shot an unarmed teenager. i don't think it's a lot to ask he has to answer some tough

questions about it. there were some clear inconsistencies in his story whether he was following trayvon martin or looking around for a street sign even though there's only three streets in the community, he lives there, and he's the neighborhood watch commander, you'd think he'd know the street. he squirmd a little on the questions. the problem, at the end of that testimony, he was asked, do you believe george zimmerman, and he said yes. well, that was a surprising moment. >> do you think that is a dove tail for the defense getting serino on record saying that in front of the jury? he's the person who had the most aggressive conversations with george zimmerman on different occasions to see where those stories met up? >> it's interesting. we've watched those pieces of evidence, the investigative questioning of george zimmerman by singleton, the first officer as well as chris ser ino. we've seen it before.

we've been covering the case for a while. this is the first time the jury is hearing from george zimmerman in his own wore. at the he said of the day, investigator serino didn't believe his story. that speaks volumes. whatever he said in the courtroom yesterday, he is the guy who filed the affidavit that he believed manslaughter charges should be filed. it was sort of good cop, bad cop. she said why didn't you identify yourself as neighborhood watch. do you think he was afraid of you? you had serino being the friendly cop, i'll walk with you, get you help if you need it. he was the friendly cop. at the end of the day, it was serino who filed that affidavit and signed off on it saying he didn't believe him. >> lisa, how significant is it in this case he did not introduce himself as neighborhood watch? is it relevant at all? >> it's relevant. is it the most important fact in the case? no. one of the questions in the case

is who was the initial aggressor. that bears on self-defense law down the line. if george zimmerman was the initial aggressor, i think it's pretty clear george zimmerman was following trayvon martin. i think that's what all of the evidence points to. he was following him. well, it's legal to follow someone. it's even legal to follow someone if a police officer on the phone tells you not to do it. if you follow at a safe distance and don't harm them, that's still illegal activity. do we believe george zimmerman when he says trayvon martin threw the first pumplg. after a mild conversation, i don't have a problem. you do now, bam. >> you basically say, he can be aggressive, going after him, following him. that doesn't necessarily mean he's guilty of murder. >> aggressive depends. aggressive, if he's verbally threatening, physically threatening, no, you can't do that. you can follow someone in a public area. >> the question i've had about this aspect of the case, we've taken out the aspect of fear.

when i was 18, i lived on my own and had this sort of constant fear of being followed as i'm walking home, constantly looking back or looking over your shoulder, just the fear that might be induced in a 17-year-old when you think oh, my god, this person i thought was following me is following me. i always wonder in terms of the law, had trayvon martin lived, would he have had a claim of self-defense in saying i was afraid of this person who was following me. >> to joy's point yesterday zimmerman was asked on the videotape whether he was in fear. he said he was in fear of trayvon martin. they pressed him on it. really? if you were in fear, why duties out of your suv, you could have driven off. >> he had a gun. >> he wasn't in fear. he had a gun, you're in a car and this guy is on foot and you're in fear. >> what were the inconsistencies displayed. one i remember, he said trayvon mafr continue jumped out of the bushes. as we look at the video, there are trees no bigger than my wrist, no trees around.

back to forensics. if this wild scuffle took place and zimmerman is bleeding the way he is, why doesn't trayvon have a bit of dna under his hands, fingernails? his hands are completely clean. >> the defense response is, number one, it was raining. two, the body was out for several hours and his hands were not bagged. they say there's contamination. >> when he was found his hands were under his body. wouldn't his clothing and the way he was left there protect the top later or lower part of his hand? whatever was pressed against his clothing, wouldn't that have protected dna? >> zimmerman has injuries and he's bleeding. >> sure. >> are we to say he self-inflicted those injuries? >> hell if i know. what i'm saying there's no dna evidence on trayvon martin's hands. the guy ground and pounding the guy. how do you ground and pound zimmerman jamming his head into

the pavement so blood is coming out of his hand, going wildcat on the front of him and there's nothing on my hands. they are under the dead body. >> the jury knows zimmerman was studying mma three times a week. >> not only that, you did have opening arguments from the prosecution they were going to talk about the fact there was a lack of george zimmerman's blad found on trafb martin's clothing. i thought the physical layout of the scene is going to be important. there isn't going to be a jury visit we know of at the scene. you show that video. george zimmerman describes himself right at that t, literally there. trayvon martin jumps out of somewhere. there really aren't bushes. if you've been to that scene, it's a shallow fence area. there aren't a lot of obstructions between the houses. the houses are connected. the other issue is that he stopped at the first house and said that's the house where he saw a person -- where he saw someone inside and called for help. but the actual crime scene is about three houses in. so he's quite a distance from where he says trayvon martin

jumped out. there isn't a bushy area he could jump out from. he represented himself right from that t. how did they get more than 15 feet into where the body was found. i've always found that an interesting, odd discrepancy in his story. >> another thing that doesn't match up to me. you could probably talk to the psychology of this. the physical appearance of george zimmerman now. the fact he's gained 120 plus pounds, doesn't have a goatee, hasn't shaved his head. he has a conservative look. >> who does that help, the weight gain. i thought about that. he's a bigger guy, maybe looks a little more threatening. or you could say a softer guy, maybe le threatening because he's so overweight. i would look at is as the stress of the trial and being home all the time on home confinement. probably a lot of stress eating. it doesn't have a lot of significance to me. when you look at the pictures of how he was a year ago with the shaved head, in much better

shape, looks like someone much more capable of someone able to hold his own in a fight. >> what's the story on serino, goes from inspector to officer, thus far the principle prosecution witness, going from inspector to officer would seem to be a demotion. what's his story? >> the sanford police department is sort of a story in itself. they have had a lot of stress in the department over the two years even before this happened. you had a force where a lot of the members of the african-american community have complained for many, many years they were treated poorly by members of the department. you had the previous chief relieved of duty after an officer's son sucker punched an african-american homeless guy, was not initially arrested. there's stories if you go into the black community that officers would refer to black residents as porch monkeys, they felt this force was biased against them. they said if trayvon martin had been from sanford, nothing would have happened, no protest, just another dead guy.

you bring in bill lee, billy lee, as they say maybe a good old boy a little bit. they felt there was unfairness here. serino continued to investigate under a great deal of pressure. you would have the department that night telephone the state attorney for seminole county and advise they don't have enough to hold zimmerman. they let him go. thirteen days go by, suddenly there's protests, a lot of pressure. you had a cousin of george zimmerman call into the department speak to an african-american officer two days after the shooting and say she thought her cousin was capable of doing something wrong. this is witness nine, a witness we may or may not see. you have a department where the chief did an press conference, we're not arresting this guy. he kept investigating. then he filed an affidavit saying he believed manslaughter charges should be filed. there's a lot of question as to why he supposedly voluntarily decided to be demoted essentially from investigator to a beat cop, a patrol officer.

it's never been officially answered. officially we're told he wanted to change shift and go on the night shift. >> stay tuned. he's still on cross-examination. so a lot of that, i think, may come out today. >> mark o'mara starts back up with him. >> that's right. 9:00 a.m. >> thank you so much, ladies, lisa bloom, joy reid, day two of ser ino back on the stand. up next, recession mav ended but the public's confidence in the economy on somewhat shaky ground. chairman of new york life insurance company ted mathas. wait a sec! i found our colors. we've made a decision. great, let's go get you set up... we need brushes. you should check out our workshops... push your color boundaries while staying well within your budget walls. i want to paint something else. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the the home depot.

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and ceo of new york life insurance company ted mathas. thank you very much for joining us. let me ask you a question. >> sure. >> from experience looking at a number of young people, people under 30, 28, 27, in my household, they view life insurance sort of the same way they view health insurance. i'm young, i'm not sick, i don't need it. do they need it? if they do need it, how do they get it in this economy? >> sure. people definitely go through life events. in fact, those life events today are happening later. you get married, have kids. those are triggering events typically for people to focus on getting life insurance.

you're in insuring against a loss. typically when you get married you start taking on obligations, responsibilities that if for -- you pass away early you want to make sure those are taken care of. you want to make sure your kids go to college, want to make sure that's taken care of. people starting later but they are still focused when they meet somebody. >> what about the cultural mind-set. 27. i'm going to live forever. i don't need life insurance. >> i guess i would say it's not just an age issue. most people don't actually walk around thinking about this issue, which is why the best way, historic way for people to get life insurance is to sit down and work with some kind of financial adviser who sits down and says to them. what's important to you? do you think you're going to live forever? what are your priorities. most people say my family is important to me. have you made sure your family is taken care of? i've been meaning to get around to that. i haven't done that. you've got the big screen tv over there. yeah, i got that.

i can't afford it. really? that's the conversation. that's not just a generational issue. you can make an argument there's less focus when you're younger. the fact of the matter is people need to sit down and engage in a dialogue to focus on real priorities. >> it's not just a life insurance issue, including in your business. it's a retirement issue as well, maybe more importantly retirement issue because people don't have defined benefit plans. hopefully social security around. 401 (k)s they haven't funded them, invested them well. they also need other services from you they don't seem to be getting, either because they don't have the money or not focused on it. there is a big retirement issue as well as a life insurance issue, right? >> no question about it. this is part of the priorities. even if you find somebody who says i want to do the right thing, want to make sure my family is taken care of and protected, make sure i can provide for a secure retirement. most people recognize especially generationally they aren't going to have a pension check.

they, in fact, are going to live longer than their parents or grandparents did. how are they going to make sure they do that. they work with somebody to come up with a savings program. what i would say there, it really comes down to somebody sitting down with somebody to work through those issues and focus on doing the right things. they are competing interests. they have to pay health insurance premium, decide on life insurance and what they can afford in life insurance and retirement. the only point i would make here, the sooner people do focus on that, the better it is. we all know if you start saving early, it makes up for a big difference. the amount you put away if you don't start saving until 40, versus saving in the late 20s. also the discipline of doing it. most all of us are creatures of habit. if we get into a discipline of saving and doing some of these things, life then works out. if you get into a discipline early on where you're not doing that -- >> this is where the interest rate environment comes into play. low interest rates are great if you consume, buy stuff. it's not good if you're a retiree depending on yield. right?

so how does interest rates and whether they are low now and go higher, how does that affect your side of the business? >> it's a great question. the level of interest rates had a pronounced impact. it's clear that the federal reserve has engineered a situation where we have artificially low rates. we all know that. they are being held down by all the things they can do to do that. that helps stimulate the economy. that helps borrowers. it hurts savers, especially conservative savers. conservative savers who don't want all their money tied up in the equity market. whether that's an institution or individual. so the people and institutions most impacted by low rates on the savings side would be seniors who are trying to live and have a relatively conservative portfolio but what kind of yield on bank cds and institutions. >> we know that. but do you make more money on a low interest rate or high interest rate environment. >> low interest rates hurt insurance companies, no question. it hurts what we can credit people, hurts the margins. we're investing dollars every day. we typically buy corporate debt.

the level of the yields we're able to get today versus what you're able to get 10, 20 years ago are significantly lower. >> that's just something we all have to live with but simply emphasizes the importance of planning, starting early, getting your money into some kind of savings k, special if you're not going to earn that much so you'll have that when you retire. >> the other advantage looking for products that offer, for example, talking about the retirement crisis. one we offer like private security. we offer they can invest money with new york life and we'll give them a guaranteed in come check starting at a certain age, whether 65 or 72, when they feel like they are at a point they are going to slow down the amount of work in exchange for the check. when we do that, one of the advantages, we have to buy the bonds, yields are lower than they have been for the last five years but we're also pooling people's interest. that allows us to offer a higher payout. in other words, you can't tell us when you're going to die, we

can't tell you when you're going to die, but we promise a pool of people we'll give them a check for the rest of their lives. that provides people with enhanced yield in today's environment. >> before we let you go. this has less to do with life insurance and has to do with daily life for spoe fans. what do you think of the policy premium on a-rod? >> i'm glad we're not in the business of insurance sports contracts like this. >> must be pretty lucrative at some level? >> i don't know. i think there's a lot of volatility associated with that. at new york life we like conservative things we can do. we make promises 30, 40 years we guarantee to policyholders and we don't like a lot of volatility. >> how long is barnicle going to live? >> we can promise mike we can give him an income check for the rest of his life if we pool with a bunch of people like mike. >> save this tape. >> ted mathas, thank you very much. >> thanks for having me. appreciate it.

thousands of texans rally to support wendy davis. the republican legislature isn't bowing out. details ahead when "morning joe" comes right back.

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state's republican leaders. >> lets remind governor perry that fairness is and always will be a fundamental texas value. politicians who are in control in this capital have forgotten their duty to represent all of us. folks who work hard every day. we need people in politics who love this place as much as the rest of us do. people who want to build a better texas rather than a better political resume. >> parts of the texas senate will be in recess next week after the holiday weekend. joy reid is back to talk to us. this is the second session. >> right. >> they pick up on the heels where they left off because wendy davis was able to filibuster this. what are the odds she can do that again? >> i don't know. it was fascinating. that filibuster was epic. it was a proper filibuster. she sit up and talked 11 years, through procedural moves republicans tried to cut it off.

what they said, which was in credit in, her talking about sonograms. >> off topic. >> is irrelevant. you had other women stand up and say, wait a minute, why can't we be heard? sort of making women relevant on the issue of their own reproduction of their own lives, of their own bodies is a trend in this debate. you have largely men, conservative christian men say we are going to decide. the state is going to tell you you are going to have babies. you are going to give birth. this is what the state is going to do. your voice is irrelevant. i think that wendy davis represents not just herself but women all over the country saying hold on a second, our voices are not irrelevant in this. we have a right to talk about our own bodies, our own lives. this goes on. you've got people, as you can see, streaming into the capital vowing to stand with her again. remember, what made the time run out was not wendy davis, it was the crowd. it was the people cheering and yelling and not letting this come to a vote. >> she became a modern day hero.

>> potentially a gubernatorial candidate, i suspect. >> she has not hidden her aspirations for that, which is refreshing. so many say, i don't, i don't want to talk about that. she says, i like what's happened and have support to it on perry. >> women in power is the antidote for this obsession republican men have with women's lives. >> back with "morning joe" after this. american success story," "that starts with one of the world's most advanced distribution systems," "and one of the most efficient trucking networks," "with safe, experienced drivers." "we work directly with manufacturers," "eliminating costly markups," "and buy directly from local farmers in every region of the country." "when you see our low prices, remember the wheels turning behind the scenes, delivering for millions of americans, everyday. "dedication: that's the real walmart" a regular guy with an irregular heartbeat.

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on tomorrow's show, former white house senior adviser david axelrod joins the exclude with george clean y, ben affleck, matt damon. those last three aren't -- >> just axelrod. up next, what, if anything, did we learn today? mine was earned in djibouti, africa. 2004. vietnam in 1972. [ all ] fort benning, georgia in 1999. [ male announcer ] usaa auto insurance is often handed down from generation to generation. because it offers a superior level of protection and because usaa's commitment to serve military members, veterans, and their families is without equal.

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vo: i've always thought the best part about this country is that we get to create our future.

you get to take ownership of the choices you make. the person you become. i've been around long enough to recognize the people who are out there owning it. the ones getting involved and staying engaged. they're not sitting by as their life unfolds. and they're not afraid to question the path they're on. because the one question they never want to ask is "how did i end up here?" i started schwab for those people. people who want to take ownership of their investments, like they do in every other aspect of their lives.

one of our local news channels in l.a. was at a swimming club. watch as reporter hal isner learns the extreme importance of get set. >> a lot of people love to swing. members of the la mirada swim team. let you guys take off. on your mark, go. >> can't confuse the kids like that. >> that is so great. that is so great. absolutely. what did you learn today? >> despite your great sense of humor, i did not know before today you had no friends. >> i do now. >> that's what i learned, if you're not on words with friends, alec baldwin and my pom want to play you on word with friends. >> i just played. >> she just facebooked me,

terrific job on "morning joe" today. >> thank you very much. >> i'm going to do a serious one. i learned allison grimes is the woman to watch as she takes on mitch mcconnell, see if she can take down the big guy. >> interesting to see if ashley judd comes out to support her. >> i learned, thomas, thank you very much for helping out here. you really helped out. appreciate it. >> thank you. >> if it's way too early right now, what time is it? >> time for "morning joe." right now time for "the daily rundown" with a hand some man, peter aleksander. he's not dressed like this. >> how do you know? >> well, i see. good morning from washington. it is tuesday july 2nd, 2013. this is "the daily rundown." i'm peter aleksander sitting in again for chuck todd traveling with the president overseas in africa. you're looking live now at the courtroom in florida where the lead detective who investigated the death of trayvon martin is taking the stand today for the second day. george zimmerman's defense team is going to cross-examination him. they are going to continue that cross-examination, focus on this