hear to make sure that it makes sense. but i would say -- >> so let's start off then not to belabor too much with keeping your mind on direct testimony, but let's start with he first told you, he was on his way to super target. >> correct. >> that seem unusual or unusual to you? >> every single sunday, like clockwork. >> tell me what he said to you about him first noticing who later became known to all of us as trayvon martin. >> he observed trayvon walking between two sets of town homes and looking in to -- i believe there was a window to one where the light was on and you could see that someone was looking in the window of a town home and it was about that time that trayvon and george made eye contact with each other and both aware of the

other's presence. >> and in that initial context, did he seem to you as though he was angry or anything like that with who this person was? >> no. no. george said that he wanted to make sure that he just got with non-emergency dispatch and had them send a police officer. >> he told you he did that? >> immediately. >> and of course you know from your conversation with george that that entire conversation was recorded. correct? >> yes, i do. >> from your conversations with george about both tonight and other nights, george zimmerman certainly knows that those phone calls are recorded. correct? >> yes. >> so tell me then again, he's explaining to you that trayvon martin is now walking up and sort of near his vehicle at some point? >> correct. came walking from between the town homes down to where the sidewalk or road area was.

>> are you taking any notes at this point or are you just listening to -- >> i'm driving. >> okay. so at some point it became apparent to you that mr. zimmerman had stopped his car by the clubhouse. correct? >> yes, he did. >> and that trayvon martin then came up towards his car, either looked in the window -- >> very close. they made eye contact several more times, very aware of each other's presence. >> during this this sort of second eye contact, did george zimmerman relate to you in any way that he was angry or -- >> no. >> -- anything about trayvon martin or this person that was there? >> no, not at all. >> and he further told you that he was still on the phone with non-emergency. right? >> he remained on, correct. >> so then we move forward to i think you said that george

zimmerman did what he thought he should to keep trayvon martin in sight? >> correct. >> is that pretty much the way -- tell me how he related that part to you as best you can recall? >> he said that he had heard from the sanford police officers that showed up to the clubhouse to give instruction to neighborhood watch people was to always try to keep whatever subject that you're observing in sight. it makes much easier for law enforcement officer to show up and make contact with the subject if you're on the phone with dispatch during the whole process and you can actually see the subject. >> did he relate to you that the non-emergency dispatcher had actually told him on a couple of occasions -- "tell me what he's doing now," or "let me know if he's doing anything else"? >> he told me what he was doing. he didn't tell me that the dispatcher had had had said certain things. >> okay. so basically george zimmerman, as he's telling you this story, is recounting to you actions,

correct? >> yes. >> not necessarily "i did this because of this reason," "or "i did this," and sort of super imposing the conversation he's having with the non-emergency on to your conversations. >> no, not at that time, no. >> he was just basically saying a rendition of what was going on. >> correct. >> so the jury is clear, about how long was this conversation between george zimmerman and you during this car ride? >> the drive from the sanford police department to near the intersection of reinhart road and lake mary boulevard, which would have been 14 minutes, 15 minutes. >> during that time were other things being discussed as well, like whatever shelly was doing with snim. >> she didn't interject at all. >> so during this conversation then he's telling you that he's trying to keep an eye on trayvon martin, however he can. >> that was his intent, was to keep him under observation.

>> and at some point -- well, tell me then, at some point did he say to you that i couldn't see him any longer? or that he lost sight of him? >> that is one of the reasons why he got out of the vehicle. >> tell me how he related that to you. >> he said he went in between the sets of town homes down the dog path, a walking path. >> when you say he, you mean -- >> trayvon martin. right. he lost contact in the darkness in between the town homes by the walking path. then he got out of his vehicle -- it may have been at the time when someone was asking him where is your exact location because the officer was getting close. so as the police officer gets closer and closer to the actual scene, the dispatch likes to tell them exact street numbers so you can find your place exactly. >> george zimmerman never told you during the entire -- this conversation that george zimmerman ever went down the dog

path. correct? >> he did. he left had his vehicle and he walked down the path. correct. >> do you know this area that we are talking about? >> i do. >> and you know there is a path that goes straight through, then a right turn that goes off to the right. >> a "t." yes. >> he had said to you trayvon went down the "t." >> yes. he asks what he believes because the street beyond was lit better than the dog path was. so if trayvon had gone all the way to the tree view circle, he he would have seen him or his shadow perhaps. because he lost sight of him around the time where the "t" was, he just said "i believe he made his turn down that dark dog path area that was not very well lit at all. >> tell us the path, if you recall, that george zimmerman told you that he took?

>> he said he went straight to go through since he lost contact. he wanted to go straight through to get a house number -- >> straight through -- >> straight through to -- not take the right to go down on the "t," just to go straight through and find some kind of a house number because you want to make sure you get the exact house number because there was a lot of units there on tree view circle. the exact house number would have brought the police officer faster. i believe that is what his intent was. >> you believe he was on his way back when the altercation began. >> correct. >> and that they said whatever they said to each other, as you testified to. just fast forward. i think you said that you weren't taking notes during that event. correct? >> i was driving, correct. >> have you ever talk to george again about the facts of this case or is that the only time? >> one other time i heard him relay the incident. >> when was that? >> the next morning. >> we'll talk about that in a

moment. >> during the event in the car, when he said things like, "do you have a problem," "you do now," or "no, i don't," are those, as best you can recall, the words george told you he remembered from the night before? >> that is correct. >> and talking about the actual mountain, when he said that trayvon martin had mounted him, i think he said that at one point he was straddling him and the knees may have been up as high as the armpits. is that correct? >> could. and the ribs area. could have been as high as the armpits. >> no, i'm asking you. i would like you to tell the jury without you suggesting ribs, hips, armpits, knees, whatever it might be, for right now, just recount as best you recall about what george remembered of the event and what he told you. >> i guess during the struggle i guess the position of his knees

and legs would probably change with george squirming. at one point i believe they were around his ribs with george trying to squirm off of the sidewalk and on to the grass. i guess his knees came up little higher. that's -- very possible. or the other way around, is he squirming as you get closer to the grass, in a fight i guess or a scrap like that, it began at least here with the ribs where the knees are somewhere in the ribs area. >> was he consistent, however, that it was trayvon martin who had mounted on top of him? >> if it was trayvon? oh, absolutely. >> was he consistent is that he, meaning george zimmerman, who was screaming for help? >> without question. >> and he did tell you at some point that there was some hanover the nose, hand over the mouth event? >> correct. but it was raining and it was slippery, i'm sure. >> did he tell you how long that portion of the overall altercation lasted?

>> 20 seconds maybe? 15, 20 with, 30 seconds? he didn't mention it. he did not say how long. >> did that, however, as he related it to you, seem to be significant as it was occurring to him that he couldn't breathe for whatever length of time? >> it was critical. >> and that he had -- somebody had a hand, trayvon martin, to the nose that had already suffered the previous injury? >> correct. >> as he was relating that to you, was that sort after real focus of his? >> that was the focus, he was losing oxygen. he felt he was not able to breathe and that's why he was desperate to need to clear an airway. >> in your experience with law enforcement, would you agree that's a natural reaction to traumatic events? >> i would think so, every time i've seen them. >> do people involved in traumatic events like that sometimes focus on particular parts of it?

>> almost exclusively to the omission of others. >> for example, car accident, you might focus on the speed of the car coming at you and completely forget about other car around you. >> correct. >> is that unnatural in your experience as law enforcement that -- >> no, that's typical. >> when you go to the scene of an accident or shooting or just anything that you investigate, do you find in your experience that people often have sort of tunnel vision views of what happened to them? >> sometimes very specific, correct. >> does that mean that they are lying to when you they do that? >> not at all. >> why not? >> well, that's been proven that that is typical. sometimes they'll focus in on one event to the exclusion of others. >> how about their ability to just recount events with any particularity at all? >> i'll object to the scope of the direct.

>> sustained. you testified concerning this whole event around the gun -- >> okay, are you listening to the george zimmerman trial. zimmerman's friend, mark osterman is on the stand. quick break and we'll be right back. with the spark miles card from capital one, bjorn earns unlimited rewards for his small business. take these bags to room 12 please. [ garth ] bjorn's small business earns double miles on every purchase every day. produce delivery. [ bjorn ] just put it on my spark card. [ garth ] why settle for less? ahh, oh! [ garth ] great businesses deserve unlimited rewards. here's your wake up call. [ male announcer ] get the spark business card from capital one and earn unlimited rewards. choose double miles or 2% cash back on every purchase every day. what's in your wallet? [ crows ] now where's the snooze button?

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we're back, listening to the george zimmerman trial. mark osterman, who describes himself at george zimmerman's best friend, is still on the stand. let's go back and take a listen. >> -- what you recall him telling you what happened was in fact accurate? >> we were not able to contact each other after he was arrested

the first time. so it was no contact. >> all right. and so you haven't talked to him -- you haven't shown him, for example, a draft of the book and say, i remember you saying this, and him saying, no, i said this instead. >> there was no cooperation with that, no. >> this is your memory, four months later, when you looked back to that night. correct? >> correct. >> and just remembered, as best you can, four months later. >> correct. >> you didn't take any notes that night, nor in between. did you? >> no. no. >> so it wasn't until four months later that you went back sort of scour your memory to put back together what he had told you on that night, 2:00 in the morning on the 27th? >> unfortunately,dy not take notes so it was just memory. >> if you had any facts wrong

that were conclusively proven wrong by forensic evidence, would you defer to the evidence rather than your memory of it? >> without question. >> if, for example, he told you he shot once and there were four shots fired, and you had had in your book that there was one but forensic evidence supported four, you would defer to that? >> i'd support that 100%. >> and to the extent that he may have told you something -- he remembered he told you something differently than it appears in the non-emergency call, which is recorded contemporaneously with the event, you would defer to that? >> absolutely. i may have heard wrong or may have documented it wrong. >> even if there was something different that he told law enforcement a few hours earlier in a roared or videotaped interview from what you recall happening, would you defer to that? >> i would.

>> a moment, your honor. you've been listening to the george zimmerman trial. george zimmerman's friend mark osterman has been testifying on the stand. joining me now, msnbc analyst lisa bloom, and msnbc.com national reporter tramaine lee. tramaine, i want to ask you first -- osterman appears to be the purpose of putting him on the the stand by the prosecution, appears to be to re-establish some of the facts george zimmerman has said but which the prosecutors say are inconsistent with the evidence. >> certainly. because one of the people involved in this situation is deceased, it is very much a he said. george zimmerman's best friend blb off t, mr. osterman, spoke with him the night and next morning of the shooting so she are relying very much on had his account of what george zimmerman told him, what

happened trayvon trying to smother george zimmerman. those kinds of details are now being fleshed over again. >> lisa, we are hearing some of these detailed rehashed over an over again by what are prosecution witnesses, zimmerman's head bashed into the ground, his nose and mouth being covered by trayvon martin. is the point of putting on sort of defense witnesses to again point out, wait a minute, witnesses that were called earlier don't say they saw any of this. >> i've been defending this prosecution team, they are working with what they have, they put on law enforcement for the sake of completeness but i don't see the point of this witness. i know he's trying to get a few inconsistencies off it but for the most part the story is consistent. the witness just said he didn't write down the story until much later so he is relying on his memory. defense got so much out of him on cross examination for george zimmerman. so if it were my choice for the prosecution, i would not have called him. >> let's go back to redirect with mark osterman.

>> thank you, sir. >> very briefly in response. as to the reholstering of the weapon, do you recall he told you that it was reholstered as he got up or if he had it in his hand when he was holding trayvon martin's hands down or even at some point shortly thereafter? >> he may have had it -- he may have had it still in his hand as he jumped on top of trayvon. and perhaps holstered when he saw the flashlight -- i don't remember specifically whether -- when exactly he holstered his firearm. >> thank you. nothing further, your honor. >> any redirect? >> you wrote in the book that he holstered his firearm. >> he holstered his firearm at some point. exactly when, i am not 100% sure when he got up -- stood up and reholstered or whether he holstered while still partially on top. >> you want to look in your book

a minute? if you could, page 29 at the bottom. did you quote him as saying in fact, "i thought he might try to get up again so as i'm putting my gun in my holster i jumped on top of him and pinned his ribs to the ground." >> correct. >> was that accurate? >> as far as i remember that he holstered -- yeah, at that point, i remember that he holstered, pinned his hands down -- it's -- i remembered him saying something like that. >> thank you, sir. >> thank you. my mr. osterman be excused? >> you are excused from the courtroom but you are are subject to being recalled. thank you very much. ladies and gentlemen, we'll go ahead and take a recess for lunch. before you go to lunch -- >> okay. the court is in recess in the trial of george zimmerman. still with me, lisa bloom, msnbc legal analyst, and tramaine lee from msnbc.com.

lisa, you are critical of this prosecution because i get a lot of comments in social media, why do they seem to be calling all of the defense's best witnesses? talk a little bit more about that. >> well, the prosecution is supposed to seek justice, not just seek a conviction. and so it does make sense that they would call law enforcement witnesses who may have mixed feelings about the case because they are an integral part of the investigation. they're part of the story and if they don't call them, the defense will call them and imply to the jury that the prosecution was hiding the ball. but this witness who simply is george zimmerman's best friend, the best friend i ever had, he made it a point to say twice on the stand, is clearly going to defend zimmerman. and on cross examination there was so much that was helpful. we trial lawyers, when we're deciding whether to call a witness or not, there's usually some positive stuff and some negative stuff. we have to balance it out. no witness is perfect for either side but this witness was so much more helpful to george zimmerman. i didn't see any need for the prosecution to call him, frankly. >> tramaine, there are so many other witnesses that have not

been called that go to other elements of the case, that have been, frankly, a lot more explosive. witness nine, a relative of zimmerman who made very strong statements about things she said they did to her when they were young and about his family's racial inclinations. people like that, they are still potentially to be called but do you feel right now that the prosecution is making its strongest case? >> i think the prosecution is trying to make its strongest case with what it has. what george zimmerman's best friend's testimony is very sympathetic, there was one detail that trayvon martin actually grabbed george zimmerman's gun. early reports from investigators show that there was never any fingerprints -- trayvon martin's fingerprints were never on the gun. they go back and forth to the banging of the head and suffocating, there was no blood on trayvon martin's hands. while it seems the prosecution is playing themselves with these sympathetic witnesses, i think they are getting something out of it. >> last word to you, lisa bloom. are we going to see the prosecution come back maybe in closing arguments and say, listen, all these witnesses were sympathetic to george zimmerman

but none of their accounts comport with what he told police and maybe that is how they're trying to button this all up in the end. >> definitely. i am keeping an open mind on both sides through closing arguments. closing arguments are where the prosecution has to bring it all together. it is a circumstantial case. they build it up bit by bit. i myself in closing argument like big charts an graphs comparing all of the testimony. they may have a great comparison showing all of the inconsistencies in george zimmerman's testimony and that could be very important to this jury. >> msnbc's lisa bloom, msnbc.com's tramaine lee, thank you both. court resumes at 1:30 and rewe resume right after this. ♪ i'm a hard, hard worker every day. ♪

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folks who work hard every day. we need people in politics who love this place as much as the rest of us do. people who want to build a better texas rather than a better political resume. >> women will not be bullied! women will not be bullied! women will not be bullied! >> that was the scene outside the texas state capitol yesterday where over 5,000 protesters showed up to rally against an anti-abortion bill. as texas lawmakers convened for round two of the state's abortion fight. not much happened inside the legislature. the house and senate each referred the bill to committees. but the legislation is likely to pass and if it does, the number of abortion clinics in texas could drop from 47 to 5. texas would become the 13th state in the u.s. to ban abortion at 20 weeks. governor rick perry says he expects the legislature to finish their work on the bill as early as next week and he warned that this time around, there won't be "turmoil and mob rule"

from the protesters. but at least in texas, the mob has a say. yesterday in ohio, governor john kasich quietly signed one of the nation's strictest antiabortion bills into law as a part of the state budget. did he so surrounded by nothing but men. this law forces any woman seeking an abortion to undergo an ultrasound even if she doesn't want one. it effectively defunds planned parenthood, imposing such regulation on aborg borgs clinics that three clinics in ohio are likely to close. the law is so draconian it takes away funding for rape crisis clinics if they counsel sexual assault victims on abortion. law redefines the word pregnancy in the state of ohio. now flying in the face of all reason, not to respect respect for women's reproductive health, and above all, science, pregnancy in the state of ohio now begins at fertilization. perhaps women across the country might take a cue from a texas protesters yesterday whose sign

read life begins with a new governor. joining me today, salon.com editor at large and msnbc political analyst, joan walsh. business and economics correspondent for slate, matt u ig glasous. joining us from austin, the texas state senator leticia vandeputte. if the bill passes, what's the next step for opponents of the legislation? >> i am so afraid that this bill will succeed. . the republicans have learned from their errors of the past they're starting early on their timeline. i think that we will see passage maybe in the next two or three weeks and it will really harm the women of texas. i don't know that there is a recourse except maybe at the ballot box because when the ill effects of this legislation are felt across the state, then the

outrage of the citizens -- just like the 5,000 that showed up yesterday. i think they will be heard. >> i want to ask you, are pro-choice advocates losing this battle? you are seeing state after state enact really draconian laws that seem to fly directly in the face of row vess wae versus wade, ane will of huge crowds of women saying no? >> i think what you have to look at is that we have lawmakers that don't have people with them so they are trying to cheat the process. we saw the texas state legislators on the gop side were using procedure pints to actually silence the people. while thatmy su may succeed as senator said in getting this bill passed, i think there will be a price to pay. 70% of americans support roe versus wade. when politicians use cheap tricks to ram their own

political agenda down people's throat, it will come back to bite them. >> despite there being potentially a political price for essentially just saying to women we don't want to hear what you have to say, we'll do this over your objections, something john sullivan wrote in the "washington post" specifically about rick perry. "the pitched battle over abortion law in texas has thrust the long-time republican governor back into the center of the lit cpolitical universe. not a place for him to be. voters like to see candidates willing to fight for causes they believe in and perry's eager challenge of davis and protesters who support her is just the kind of thing that could breathe new life into his political career. is this actually good for rick perry? >> temporarily it is good for rick perry. just before we started, there is a new public policy poll showing he's -- his margin over wendy davis has actually grown in the last week. this is helping him right now. but her name recognition, her approval has also exploded. so these are early days in this

battle, sad to say. the important thing about joining this fight -- i know that the senator and elise will both agree -- these red states are where these awful things are taking place around women's rights. and so when national democrats sit back and say, oh, texas, i'm sorry, we don't have money for that, we don't have time for that, oh, kentucky, we don't care if mitch mcconnell gets challenged, that's terrible for women. it's really exciting right this minute that women are joining these battles, going into these red states written off by people like me, frankly, until now, and they are say hg this is where women's rights are being decided, y'all. please come down and help. >> red states except for ohio is also part of this. >> well, it is purple. >> right. then you have states where you have scott walker, in wisconsin, who wants to potentially run for president also pushing these things in purple states. it is starting to bleed out of red america and into those swing states particularly where those 2010 tea party governors were elected.

>> these issues are very fundamental to the republican party. i think any republican governor who wants to make a name for himself nationally needs to push on them but it is also worth looking into the larger context. these are the same poll tagss in a lot of cases that would turn down funding for maternity, pre and post natal care. things that could really help women and women. they're not that interested. there is this old life from barney frank, this is the belief that life begins at conception and ends at birth. an agenda pushed not just in the south -- >> you can't really be a successful republican unless are you fundamentally strong on this issue. that's one issue you cannot win as a republican unless are you completely pro-life. >> so rick perry hue mailated had himself on the national stage but he's now revived his standing with conservatives nationwide by standing up to wendy davis and had his despicable amounts that we were horrified by, insults, they love that stuff. >> senator, talk about the

politics going on in texas right now. we have a sense outside of the state that wendy davis has become a sort of national hero, that you yourself have become this national hero for the incredible statement you made about women's voices not being heard in the state senate. inside of the state, do you feel like you're winning? >> inside of the state, we feel momentum. in fact, at the rally yesterday was a former gop staffer in the house. she left. she quit her job because of the draconian measures that they're taking upon women. it's not just about this particular bill but governor perry vetoed our lilly ledbetter bill, authored by senator wendy davis. equal pay for women. why wouldn't you support equal pay for women? it's not justice. that's why we feel that women are going to go to the ballot box. they feel that their education, their opportunities, and the decisions that they make about

their health care may be threatened. >> i want to point out the national republican party is basically sitting out the texas fight. maybe that's a good sign. thank you both very much for being here. coming up -- as immigration reform moves to the house, the focus shifts to speaker john boehner. but the question isn't just what will boehner do. it also might be does his caucus fear failure? we'll discuss the state of play in the house when congressman lewis gutierrez joins us just ahead. go! go olive garden. go 2 for $25. go father, daughter. go mother, son. start with unlimited salad and breadsticks. share a pair of apps. then choose 2 of 5 summer entrees. like spicy shrimp vesuvio or new tuscan garlic chicken. so have a date night. have a double-date night. go 3 courses for 2 people just $25. go olive garden! we're all family here.

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when congress returns from its july 4 recess, all eyes will be on the house as it grapples with with its own version of an immigration bill. one of the key architects of the senate bill, john mccain, laid out the stakes for his party if the house blocks reform. >> i really hesitate to tell speaker boehner exactly how he should do this, but i think republicans realize the implications of the future of the republican party in america if we don't get this issue behind us. >> meanwhile, his fellow gang of eight member chuck schumer predicted that the house's piecemeal approach was unworkable and would lead to the house biting the bullet and passing senate legislation by the end of the year. >> within several months, speaker boehner will find two choices. no bill or let a bill pass with a majority of democratic votes and some chamber of commerce type republicans and he'll find that the better choice.

we'll pass the senate bill by the end of this year even though mose house members don't think so. >> both men were deferential to the wishes of one man, house speaker john boehner, who said on immigration he'll insist on enforcing the hastert rule. what does boehner himself want? he's not saying. >> you know, me taking a position one way or another somewhere is just going to slow the process down and make it more difficult. i'm -- i've got a difficult enough job as it is. i don't need to make it harder. >> and his job is complicated by the fact that the party's long-term interests seem to be in conflict with the more immediate electoral needs of house republican members. 84% of whom represent districts with electorate 20% or less hispanic. texas representative kenny merchant summed up his opposition telling the ap -- if you give the legal right to vote to ten hispanics in my district,

seven to eight of them are going to vote democrat. or as one house aide said -- our guys actually do primary over immigration. jerry bernstein, cnbc chief washington correspondent john harwood, and democratic congressman from illinois, luis gutierrez. congressman, i'll start with you. a lot of people pleebelieve the incentives for john bainer to put this on the floor are few because if he actually does he will risk losing his speakership. is he willing to risk that to pass immigration reform? >> i think in the end, the speaker understands something very, very different that we're living -- that a majority that's more than 218 members of the house of representatives are ready to vote for xrees hencive immigration reforl, dozens --

dozens of members of his republican caucus want a vote and they want to vote, many of them, because it is the right thing to do. others, because it is politically expedient for them to do it. i rool lyreally don't care how come to the table. the fact is that a majority -- look. boehner is not the kind of -- how would i say it -- ideological guy. right? he sits down, he voted against sensenbrenn sensenbrenner, that mean legislation that criminalized all immigrants. he's not a very ideological person when it comes to pushing. he wants to try to reach consensus. i believe that about him. and he's in a quandary right now with a majority of his party that doesn't want him to allow a vote for comprehensive immigration reform. but look. to me, there's going to be a vote eventually on comprehensive immigration reform in the house because of one reason and one reason -- it is kind of the depth and breadth. so far, what chairman goodlatte

has proposed is the same failed policies of the pafst. now it is report to work if you are an ag worker and they criminalized everyone of the 11 misdemeanor people. i think when they understand the magnitude of the demand and the depth of this demand that they continue to call 11 million people criminals and children in our communities see their parents and people at church see people who are sitting in the pews and teachers see their students? they're going to understand that our community really embraces this in a way that is going to be very unforgiving to them. so if they want to be a party of l localities and provinces and make some states, then don't allow a vote. they will never and national party ever again. >> matt, the point that congressman gut yierrez just ma, isn't that boehner's problem? i want to read something from the "washington post" -- if the past is any guide boehner's

guide to follow the risches of the majority of the house of representatives is as good as gold until he breaks it. this issue is so fraught he'd likely face a rebellion. irate tea parties could depose boehner from his post. is it that he's not trusting of the core of the republican base because they eventually think he will fold because he is not ideological. >> that is one problem. another problem people who want to see a bill pass face, there is not some crisis day at which point something has to something. if boehner can find a way to sort of keep punting -- he was there on camera and he said he wasn't going to take a position on the bill. the longer he can sort of stall, the better for him. he could potentially stall for quite a long time. >> the only way it seems that john boehner could get this done would be to do what he's done before, go back to the democratic party, go back to the real speaker of the house, snansnan

nancy pelosi, say get me 20 votes. can he possibly survive and do you think he will try it? >> i think it will be difficult for him if he took a bill to the floor that was only going to get 20 republican votes but i don't think that's what he'll do. it's been slowed down by the mess over the farm bill and discord that showed within the caucus, but i think something will move in the house. they will get to conference in the senate and ultimately the republicans are going to have a decision to make as to whether they move forward with the path to legalization or not. i think in the end, because there is a cliff, presidential elections every four years, they don't want to lose them indefinitely. in the end i think they will get a bill, democrats may have to make some concession. they may have to go take back the cornyn amendment or some enforcement trigger but i do think john boehner wants to get something done in this area and i think there are enough republicans with him he will ultimately take the reins. >> jerry, you're a finance guy. they've added 22,000 border

patrol agents adding cost. they made the argument it saves the country money which is supposedly what republicans care about. does there seem to be anything that would be offered to the republican party that would make them go for it? >> the only thing are matters like the border control which costs. basically the only way you get this over the republican goal line is by making the bill far harsher than it already is. i'd be interested in the congressman's response to this but it seems to me that anything that comes out of the house of representatives is going to make the path to citizenship as far as the senate looks like a walk in the garden. >> 26 years instead of -- >> congressman, is that what you see happening? something so draconian -- >> but let me just say. it is already draconian. right? i mean they're cut o you the of the aca. we've confiscated billions of dollars they're already contributed in social security. right? they work for ten years and can't get a means tested program. then they use the surplus that they create, $175 billion in the first ten years, to build a

border and a fence so that our neighbors can't come and visit us. so look, we're going to find a way. i do believe that the way is the conference. you have a small group of republicans that now are saying that a conference equals amnesty. i think a conference reaches a solution. and so we need to work -- we still have a bipartisan group, because no matter what, you need a bipartisan group and bipartisan proposal in the house of representatives so we can bring the paul ryans and those who want to find a solution. that helps facilitate the process for john bain person. >> i'm sorry, we are out of time. when we come back, joan walsh is going to run the panel after this. be right back. hampion grill master brett galloway. he's serving his guests walmart choice premium steaks. but they don't know it yet. they will. it's a steak-over. steak was excellent. very tender. melts in your mouth. it was delicious. tonight you are eating walmart steak. what???!! good steak. two thumbs up? look, i ate all of mine. it matches any good steakhouse if not better.

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still camped out at the moscow airport, nsa leaker edward snowden has petitioned 21 countries for political asylum but few of them seem to have much interest in taking him in. "the new york times" reports today that snowden's options are narrowing with at least eight of those countries reacting

unfavorably to his request and only venezuela and bolivia appear to offer him a hint of hope for his way out of his limbo. joining us from moscow, nbc's jim maceda. i want to ask you if russia is under pressure too resolve this situation with ed snowden? >> reporter: hi, joy. obviously they are under pressure from america but i don't think that's the greatest pressure. really the intense pressure is coming from putin himself. he seems to be torn. on the one hand, he really doesn't want to hold on to the hot potato that's edward snowden. kremlin experts tell us he'd rather avoid the long-term headache of having snowden here on russian soil. putin is a former kgb colonel and he just doesn't like snowden because he defected from his own secret service. however, giving snowden back to the united states is without of the question so he's under his own pressure to resolve this as quickly as possible, that means

getting snowden on a plane out of here and out of his life. >> thank you, jim maceda. get him on a plane to where? it seems the same distance russia would have to hang on to him, would any country that does business with the united states. >> most places feel that way. it is clear putin doesn't like leakers either so he'll stand in solidarity with president obama on this particular issue right now. >> lightning round to the table. to you think edward snowden in the end has to come back to the you united states? >> i don't think he has to come back to the united states. as developments go on, i think it looks like he probably won't want to come back to the united states. >> does he come sghak. >> i think he will come back. >> he doesn't want to come back. i think his options are narrowing. if one of those countries takes him and is willing to accept him indefinitely he'll take that but i think he is going to end up back in the united states. >> that has to be the last word. thank you. that is all for now. i'll see you back here tomorrow at noon eastern. "andrea mitchell reports" with peter alexander is next. ♪

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if i can, i'm hitting you. correct? that's what the defendant is claiming, i'm suffocating you. i'm not going to put my hand on your mouth. >> that's fine. >> would you have your hands like that, just like this? or would you be fighting me? >> i'd be fighting you. right now on "andrea mitchell reports" -- the latest from the george zimmerman trial. the lead detective in this case continuing his testimony today, shedding new light on zimmerman's physical struggle with trayvon martin. our legal team is standing by. we'll have them, as well as the trial. when it gets under way we'll take you there live. honoring 19 heroes. the town of prescott, arizona is reeling today from the loss of the fearless firefighters. hotshots who died fighting the fast moving fire 85 miles outside phoenix. this morning the wife of andrew ashcraft, one of those firefighters who died monday, paid tribute to her husband and his fallen