testimony. i'm going to start with be, lawren lawrence, because that is your expertise. they really tried hard to push the medical examiner to talk about george zimmerman's injuries. how important is it for the defense to prove those injuries were severe and substantial in order to prove self-defense. >> it would support the idea that george zimmerman felt his life was in jeopardy. you know, when you have a gun, you have the license to carry a gun, you normally have training. you are taught never to use lethal force unless you're life is in jeopardy. and so, it is important for the medical examiner to talk about the kinds of injuries that george zimmerman sustained. of course, sometimes what appears to be minor injuries can be much more serious. for example, there are situations where people can fall down, bang their head against the sidewalk, develop sub dual

hematoma and die. so it is very hard to extrapolate from the wound on the back of the head. we do see george zimmerman has extensive wounds on the top of the head or sides, to the nose, to the back of the head. and it is a major portion of this case. we need to hear exactly what happened to him and we need to break out the element, the time element of exactly what happened first. what followed et cetera, et cetera. >> lisa, doesn't the defense also have to establish that those wounds were received in the course of zimmerman's head being banged on the ground. that seems to be a central part of the case that the defense is trying to make. we haven't had witness testimony to support that yet. do you find it odd this is the first time we are hearing mark o'mara use that specific terminology, about zimmerman's head being banged into the ground. because witnesses who have come forward have not corroborated this. >> well, how else would he have gotten those injuries, joy?

that's an interesting question. unless you think he self inflicted those injuries? just moments in between the end of the altercation and arrival of the first witness and arrival of the police which came shortly thereafter. and look, that's pure speculation, there was nothing in the trial about that. i want to emphasize that. but you do have to wonder why there's no blood on the sidewalk. no blood on trayvon martin's hands, et cetera. it is an intriguing question. i wouldn't say that the defense has to prove that. the defense does not have to prove anything. the burden of proof always rests with the prosecution and they have to show that this killing happened not in self-defense as zimmerman claims. >> robin, since you are a former prosecutor, i want to go to you on this. i've seen a lot of criticism in the prosecution in the social media about how they are trying this case, what evidence they are putting on, and who they are calling. i want to play you something that happened in court today and get your reaction to it. earlier in court the members of the jury, able to watch part of an interview that george zimmerman gave in july of 2012 on fox news.

i want you to look at the short excerpt from that interview and then respond to it. >> is there anything you regret? do you regret getting out of the car to follow trayvon that night? >> no, sir. >> do you regret that you had a gun that night? >> no, sir. >> do you feel you wouldn't be here for this interview if you didn't have that gun? >> no, sir. >> you feel you would not be here? >> i feel that if it was all god's plan for me to second-guess it, judge it. >> is there anything you might do differently if retrospect now that time has passed a little bit. >> no, sir. >> robin? is that the prosecution simply allowing george zimmerman to testify in what has to be the friendliest venue possible? fox news. >> as you know, first of all, prosecution doesn't get to decide whether or not the defendant takes the stand or not. and they have to roll the dice and wait like all the rest of us. and the presumption right now, as we are hearing rumblings in

social media and there is all of these -- this microscope on the prosecution's case, though in social media, i don't see it bravely discussed on real media and on television. people seem scared to call the weaknesses out there. but behind the computer they do. but i digress. i do think they have to put out every piece of tape they have there for zimmerman. because that may be the only way we can hear what he has to say. if you want it to say he is inconsistent from one interview to the other and he won't be believed, the only way to do it is to play the tapes. >> he was consistent. he said he doesn't regret anything. he doesn't believe he would be alive if he doesn't have the gun. i don't know why you would play the tape. >> i don't know that why he would say that it was god's plan that i killed an unarmed teenager. i find that obnoxious, if not worse. knowing what he knows now, wouldn't a more descent human being say, my god, i'm so sorry

that this all turned out the way it did. i'm sorry for the martin family. my heart goes out to them. i very genuinely feared for my life. i did what i today do in the heat of the moment. but if i could change anything, i wouldn't have even been there that night. he doesn't say anything like that. and that goes to the prosecution's theory that he is a very cold kind of calculating person. >> and michael eric dyson, i want to bring you in on this. zimmerman brings this in as god's plan. and from the standpoint of having studied religion, does it trike you as odd that zimmerman's response to, having killed a young man, is to be very serene and say, it was god's plan. does that strike you as odd? >> yeah. i'm with attorney bloom there. i think it is really bizarre. this kiis at the expense of a

boy's life. if you're on god's side, god doesn't want it kill, hurt, maim or he cdestroy others. this is not abraham and isaac. the reality is that he displays, i think, a rather cold-hearted demeanor. and he is not moved to the -- at the very least at feeling remorse about the boy's death. i mean, given the chance to say, look, if i had to do it all over again, i wish i wouldn't have killed him. i wish he wouldn't have been there. i wish the situation had not turned out to the degree of violence that it turned into. he is using religion and any signed of fatalistic destiny to cover his own tracks. i know you didn't ask me about this, but as far as bruises on his head, here is what i just don't understand about the whole situation. you have a license to carry a gun. you pursue me.

you seek me out. i'm minding my own business. then when i'm getting the best of you in the con frconfrontati, you extract your gun from its holster and kill me. and the very violence i tried to impose upon you because you sought me out unjustly is now used as evidence that i'm in the wrong and not defending myself. i tell you, it is bizarre beyond belief to me. >> goldy, if you could react sort of along the same lines. there is this contrast where he is veserene, very flat. are they painting someone as cold, seeking out confrontation, and what the prosecution has to show, which is deprave human

life. >> this person has no regrets whatsoever. even after learning he was an unarmed teenager walking home that night from the store. and so, you know, even if i believed wholeheartedly that i'm in the right, that i sought someone out who i truly believed was a threat to my community, that i'm the neighborhood watch person or captain, and that i am doing the course of my duties. and i'm armed because i understand it is a bit dangerous out here at night, even if i believe i'm 100% in the right and that trayvon martin could have been in the neighborhood as the defense tried to imply today to rob homes, if that were true, after i learn that trayvon martin is an innocent teenager who is unarmed who is visiting his father during period of time, i've got some remorse that i have wrongly taken this person's life based on suspicions that maybe i should not have had. i do think that he created his story and it has been a fairly

consistent one. along the lines of what would be a reasonable defense for this. i think he understood that from his class work. i think he understood that from his study of criminal justice. i think he understood that from his work as neighborhood watch person that he needed to ber out that he was acting in self-defense. or he was going nobody a lot of trouble. but what we're seeing here today, and i've never been a litigator. i've never been a prosecute or or defended a criminal case, but i have been a juror. and i'm looking at the physical evidence put out does not match george zimmerman's story. and that's going to be a problem. >> i want to go back it lawrence on that. the question of the physical evidence. you did have a friend of george zimmerman testify today, who wrote a book, actually, about what he says zimmerman told him about what transpired on the night of the shooting. one of the things he said in his testimony was that he was told that trayvon martin went for the gun. and that he actually got a hand on the gun.

how important is it that there were no fingerprints from trayvon martin found on the gun? >> well, you would be surprised that on handguns, you very seldom get a good fingerprint. it could be a smudge. if he touched the gun, he could have left evidence that he touched the gun and you wouldn't see it as a fingerprint. now dna analysis on the other hand could pick up individual skin cells. and certainly, it is an important factor, if the hypothesis is that trayvon martin actually touched the gun. i think what i've heard is that trayvon martin went for the gun, according to george zimmerman. not that he touched it. but he went for it. and i think that's a significant point. and i think i'm troubled by hearing all of this analysis, step by step. i think if you are in the moment, and you're subjected to a very intense struggle, and beating, i don't think you're

thinking about what am i going to do now. i've got a gun. i can't use it unless my life is in danger. you react. you react instantly. and now we're kind of sitting here, kind of trying to figure out what was going through his mind. can we ever get into his mind? i don't think so. >> can i say this, though? the point is that, okay, fair enough. but what you seem to be discounting is the whole racial and cultural situation here that leads trayvon martin to be suspected by george zimmerman to begin with. so that implicates mr. martin in a series of stereo typical representations of black identity. and of the cultural clashes between zimmerman and trayvon martin. and the whole sieging network of stop and frisk in a country where black men are subjected to arbitrary and capricious character of many police departments. when you put that in context, sir, it seems to me that that should at least play a role in

determining how mr. zimmerman might have reasonably, within the context of those stereo types, responded to a trayvon martin and not only that, we have evidence of that given some of the things that he has said. they always get away with it. they are always out here trying to do it. it seems to me, at least some inkling of the fact that the stereo typical representations penetrated mr. zimmerman's consciousness and made him believe and behave in a certain way. and there is at least some reasonable conclusion that those two things are related. >> hold on one second. we will take a quick break. when we come back, i want to play some of mark osterman's test. we will bring you live coverage when that happens and we will be right back. ♪ take me into your darkest hour ♪ ♪ and i'll never desert you ♪ ♪ i'll stand by you yeaaaah! yeah. so that's our loyalty program. you're automatically enrolled, and the longer you stay, the more rewards you get. great! oh!

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we will resume our coverage of the george zimmerman trial in just a moment. but first, egyptian protesters may be on the verge of toppling their second president in as many years. president morsi is expected to speak in a few hours, one day after his country's military establishment put up a 48-hour deadline. we are watching live pictures of those protests in egypt right now. the demands of the protesters include morsi's ouster as well as more elections. we go to applon in tahrir square in cairo. >> more and more people are pouring into tahrir square as this ultimatum approaches quickly. people here in tahrir square feel they are about to topple yet another egyptian leader. they say the military should intervene and oust president

morsi. the president says that would amount it a coup on the democratic leader of the country. the country is bracing itself for the political showdown. for the past several hours, president morsi has been meeting with key officials, including prime minister, to try and salvage his term in office. no indication he has come up with an agreement. if he fails to put an end to this political crisis, the military will intervene and chart its roadmap for the country's transition to democracy. some leaked reports say the military will dissolve the parliament, and the islam constitution and as a result many people here feel that amount to a military coup. there are great concerns among both sides that country is in fact heading towards a very dangerous showdown in coming hours. nbc news, cairo. >> thank you very much. the trial of george zimmerman will resume in just minutes and we will be right back. we've hads farm for 30 years.

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and we are back. the trial of george zimmerman is about to resume. we will take you right back to court as soon as the jury is seated and the next witness is called. i want to go back to robin quickly. before the break we were talking about whether or not we could read george zimmerman's mind. the prosecution's job is to attempt to do just that. they are trying to say that george zimmerman profiled trayvon martin. they have to prove elements of that and the burden is really on them to do so. isn't that right? >> that's exactly right. we are forgetting what is happening here because this is almost a backwards case. it is almost as if the defense is acting like the prosecution and the prosecution is acting as if they are on the defense. in reality the prosecution needs to prove each and every element of the crime. and they have to have a belief as to what was going on in george zimmerman's head or otherwise they shouldn't have filed charges. that's been my problem from the beginning. because we sat here yesterday looking at the investigators thinking, you know what, they didn't do a really great job.

they are sounding like their friends witnesses and we should know the prosecution would be stuck with that testimony and that would forever kul oert case. >> lisa, let me ask you about that. i've heard that specifically about witnesses, particularly defective serino. he is the guy who said, i think we should charge this guy with manslaughter but he seemed to be a reluctant prosecution witness. not really enthusiastic about the case he made. >> he is one of many. for those who are not used to watching criminal trials, robin certainly is. i am. normally, everyone in law enforcement lines up strongly against the defense. they go through their investigati investigation. they talk about the lies they found. the terrible character efd evidence they found. instead, in this case, prosecution gets a little bit out of the witnessens then the defense comes in and turns them into character witnesses for the defense. it really is extraordinary.

>> we will go back to the trial on the next witnesses on the stand. let's take a listen. >> how long with the seminole county sheriff's office. >> a total of eight years. >> how long in examination. >> just under ten years. >> what do you do as a print examiner. >> i exam latent print to known standard and issue reports with my findings. >> if you could summarize, please, the training education that you had to prepare you for your duties as a latent printing examiner. >> i have a business degree. i also successfully completed both latent print technician and analyst training programs at the seminole sheriff's office. i received approximately 300 hours of additional training from the federal bureau of investigation, the florida division of the international

association for identification, among other agencies as well. >> have you ever been tendered as an expert in florida in the areas of latent print identification or comparison. >> yes. >> how many times? >> seven. >> your honor at this time i would tender ms. benson as an expert in fingerprint identification. >> she will be allowed to testify in that area. >> please explain, what is a latent print. what do you mean of that? >> an unintentional recording of your fingerprint or palm print. when you touch a surface, residue such as perspiration or body oils that may be present on your hand can then transfer the ridge detail found in your fingerprint on to a surface leaving behind a latent print. >> what is meant by the expression a latent print of will have u? >> a latent print of value means there is a sufficient amount of information in that latent and ridge detail in order to either

identify a person or eliminate a person as being the source of that latent print. >> is a latent print of will have u one suitable for comparison? >> yes. >> how can a latent print not be of value? or be of no value? >> it may lack clarity. it may lack information in the ridge detail. it may be heavily disexport. >> if a person touches a surface, i will use my example, m my thumb is on that surface, is there a guarantee there would be a latent print? >> no. >> why not? >> there has to be enough residue to transfer to the surface. the surface of the item you are touching or object needs to be conducive to receiving a latent print. generally, heavily textured or rough surfaces are less likely to receive a latent print than say a smooth surface would be. >> can latent prints be

destroyed if they are deposited? >> yes. >> how is that? >> excessive handling of a surface or the object that has suspected latent print on it can wipe away damage or destroy latent prints. also, environmental conditions, such as rain or heavy humidity can damage or destroy latent print. >> and in your field, what is meant by a latent print card? >> a latent print card generally is a white card that is used to preserve latent print evidence on. >> how are those used in your work? >> generally, we receive latent print cards to examine for the presence of latent prints. >> what is a known ink print? >> a known inked print is an intentional recording of your fingerprint or palm prints for the purpose of identification. >> and if you have a latent print of value and known ink print, explain for the jury how you go about comparing those two to determine whether or not they were left by the same individual.

>> once i've determined that there's a latent print of value, i'm then going to do a side by side comparison with the known inked print. i'm going to look for similarity and differences. i'm going to look for things that maybe in agreement or not in agreement and after a thorough examination is completed, i will determine it is either identified with that known print or not identified with that print. >> did you have an opportunity to examine a latent print card in the case of the state of florida versus george zimmerman? >> yes, i did. >> your honor, may i approach the witness? >> yes, you may. >> ms. benson, let me show you state's 183 already in evidence. ask you, do you recognize that? >> yes, i do. >> is that a card you examined in this case? >> yes. >> can you kind of just hold it up from the jury from where you are and just explain it to them. explain the latent card to them.

>> okay. this is latent lift card. an area of interest was developed and they placed a clear -- or whoever lifted this print, placed a clear piece of cellophane tape on top of the latent and placed it on to the latent print card on the opposite side that you see here. >> did you examine that card to determine whether or not there were any latent print of value? >> yes, i did. >> explain to the members of the jury how you went about that. >> i used a hand-held magnifier to examine the lift areas that were present on this latent lift card. >> did you find any latent prints of value on state's 183? >> no. >> ms. benson, did you have any further involvement in the case? >> no. >> thank you for your time. >> cross? >> good afternoon, ma'am. >> good afternoon. >> how are you? >> good. >> do you even know from looking that document you have in front of you where that print was lifted from?

>> there is a lift location that was filled out that -- that says where it came from. >> where is that location? >> the lift location says the slide of a firearm located within item ts-1. >> and in fact taken from a firearm, correct? >> that's what is indicated on the lift card, yes. >> did you only get one latent print to review? >> yes. i only received one latent card to review. >> and you mentioned that environmental effects can have a negative effect on latent print, correct? >> yes. it can damage latent print. >> i think you mentioned that rain itself can? >> it can. >> because the -- what is left as part of the latent print or make of the latent print are oils from the skin? >> it can be, yes. >> and other debris. but it allows for the -- the

fingerprint can lead a minor amount of oily substance that actually is the print itself, right? >> yes. >> and water can wash that away? >> yes. >> so that fingerprints may have is existed on an item that you would lift a latent from, and there be no latents whatsoever, correct? >> that's correct. >> even though the gun has been handled by one, two or three people. >> that's correct. >> any other latent work or fingerprint work that you did have anything to do with the zimmerman case? >> no. >> great, thank you. nothing further, your honor. >> thank you. redirect? >> no, your honor. >> thank you very much. may this witness be excused? >> she may. >> thank you. you are excused. couns counsel, approach for just a moment, please.

>> okay we are watching the trifle george zimmerman. i want it ask you about the testimony you just heard from kirsten bentsen. explain for our audience what we just heard. >> well, the reason that kirsten is testifying is because prosecutors know that now days jurors expect to hear forensic science. i think they are just showing due diligence. what we heard is that she found nothing. she did what every fingerprint examiner does, look for latent print. >> on the gun? >> on the gun. especially on the slide area on semiautomatic, the slide gets pulled back. there is a lot of pressure exerted on the slide area. you would expect to have fingerprint. as i mentioned earlier, you very seldom get useable fingerprint off of a gun. >> okay. i want to play a soundbite and

go to you, robin, and explain why this is important. this is mark osterman, self-described best friend of george zimmerman testifying earlier today. >> the defendant quoted adds saying, somehow i broke his grip on the gun when the guy grabbed it between the rear side and the hammer, correct? >> could have been leather, could have been the gun. >> i think you quoted him on page 29, refresh your memory if you need to. >> correct. >> under quotations, somehow i broke his grip on the gun when the guy grabbed it between the rear sight and hammer. >> that's where the leather strap is, though. that's what holds the gun in. >> so the defendant is claiming the victim grabbed the gun. >> that is my understanding. >> robin, how helpful is this to the prosecution given it is not zimmerman testifying. a friend that wrote a book base owned what zimmerman told him. >> that is a key part.

as i sat there listening to the latent expert speak, i it was no accident they had him on this morning and latent print person on that day. number one, not only is it -- does it take care of the issue we heard of csi effect, and it contradicts george zimmerman and what he says. if he doesn't testify, if he does testify, you can good to the credibility issue of, if he lied once, fe was untruthful once, you can resume him to be untruthful again. especially when you talk about a tight grip, one you would expect from there to be a fingerprint. . if i was the pros kouecution or defense, i would ask that, if there was a tight grip, would you expect there to be a print? >> we are in a pause on the george zimmerman trial. we will bring more to you live after the break. will. it's a steak-over.

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we're looking at live

pictures of the courtroom in the trial of george zimmerman for second degree murder in the killing of trayvon martin. joining me now live from sanford is msnbc's craig melvin who has been covering the case for us down there. craig, give us sort of an idea, kind of, of the temperature down there. when the trial first started there was an expectation there would be lots of protests. lots of people gathering. is that what we are seeing outside the courtroom? >> no. we counted pro protesters today and we noted that because it was double the number of protesters we saw a few days ago. so there had been no protest. that is by and large because of rules put into place before the trial started. rules regarding protesting and you know, you can't use megaphones. you can't bring tents and things like that. they made protesting pretty difficult. so there have been no protests. we should note here that judge nelson has just adjourned court for the day. this is -- this is the earliest we have seen her adjourn court.

perhaps since this trial started. just after 4:30. tomorrow morning, the jury's excused, by wait. court is not out. jury is excused. tomorrow morning at 8:30, the judge is expected to issue here ruling on what we covered a fair amount this afternoon. whether the state is going to be able to get through the transcripts in from seminole college, course work, course work that george zimmerman undertook at that college. course work in self-defense. coarse work in self-defense law. course work in stand your ground, application for police officer in prince william in virginia. ride-along with sanford police. state trying to get aught of this information in. judge nelson heard case law this afternoon. she decided she will review that over the course of the evening and issue that ruling tomorrow morning before court resumes. there is also that picture, joy, and i'm sure your viewers are very much aware of this picture,

that don west's daughter, molly west, she put this picture on instagram last week. it created quite the fury. i think we've got a picture of -- i think we've got a picture of this thing. but this is apparently a tradition she and her father have had over a number of years. and this is a picture that was, again, posted by molly west last week. and it shows the three of them eating ice cream, right after the testimony of rachel jeantel. there's the picture there. and under it, you know, it talks about -- it talks about standing up against stupid. we beat stupidity celebration cones. that's the caption under it. that killed it was the other caption. the state yesterday found filed a motion because their claim is

that that was inappropriate by an and large. did not ask for specific punishment or sanctions but did want judge nelson to look into that specifically and this afternoon the defense responded, basically saying that that was a private family moment that was captured. they also argued that picture itself was taken a day before rachel testified and posted on the first day of testimony. there's been a little back and forth. we don't expect judge nelson to sanction or punish. she hasn't brought this up in court yet. judge nelson excused the jury for the day job joy. >> all right. msnbc's craig melvin, thank you very much. i want to go to you goldy taylor on that. both rachel and molly west, daughters of don west, one of the attorneys for george zimmerman, both posted instagram photos in the case of molly west indeed a photo taken on tuesday

confirmed, also to me by zimmerman defense team and going out to ice cream picture. but rachel west posted a picture in orlando sentinel photo of rachel jeantel. i should note that both of their accounts were closed. it was startling comment that wasn't funny. >> it was startling. maybe one of the legal counsel can tell us, i don't know of a way that the judge can sanction mr. west for this photo that his daughter captioned and posted herself. i'm not sure there is a way out of that. i would not want to be held responsible for my children's social media account. i have grown children who have accounts, instagram, facebook,

twitter, you name it. i would not want to be responsible and called into account for what my children do. i think it is an unfortunate incident but one that should not have a bearing on the case going forward. what ought to have bearing on this case are the facts of the matter and how trayvon martin and george zimmerman encountered each other that evening for what reason and what transpired after that. i think that's what's important here and i hope the judge comes back with just that ruling on it. >> we should note the defense also filed a motion with the judge, zoelding prosecutors for releasing that motion, because they say it brings up an issue adding to the divisiveness of the case. when we come back, the latest out of egypt where a deadline is looming for president morsi to restore order. we will be live from cairo, next. wait a sec! i found our colors. we've made a decision. great, let's go get you set up... we need brushes.

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egypt's president morsi is expected to speak in the next few hours after the military gave him a 48 hour ultimatum monday. millions of protesters in egypt's capital. for more we go to cairo at the heart of the protest in tahrir square. amon, give us an idea of what is going on from the heart of the protest now. >> sure, in the last couple of hours, crowds are growing for supporters and opponents for him. supporters of president morsi have been camped out in another part of cairo and since the announcement by the military they issued this ultimatum giving him 48 hours, supporters have been slowly coming in. main protests in cairo are in the iconic tahrir square. it is there where people have been camped out.

protesters feel the country has taken the wrong turn. not only in the way it has moved toward the democracy but also in the way it has taken its day-to-day affairs. crime is skyrocketing. they feel the president is trying to take more and more power into his hands, reversing this country into a you a authoritarian rule. we have seen clashes between the protesters and the opponents -- the supporters and opponent of president morsi that led to casualties alone today as we approach every hour to that ultimatum tomorrow or at least wednesday around 4:00 p.m. local time. it is not yet clear what the military intends to do. as you mention, we could possibly be hearing from the president. he has been holding emergency meetings with the minister of defense and prime minister. not clear whether an agreement has been reached but the

military said if no agreement is reached within the next 24 hours, they will impose their own roadmap. that could mean suspending the current constitution and suspending the parliament it pave way for new elections. >> ayman, we remember watching in that same tahrir square and the chance of the military and people were one and together. do you get the sense that anti-morecy protesters trust the military to turn over power to the civil government? is there still a trust in the military as annance tugs? >> right now in tahrir square, the short answer to that is yes. they feel confident the military is genuine this time of around. keep in mind, there are a few reasons for that. the leadership of the military has completely changed. a new chief of staff, new minister of defense, commander of the armed forces has given the people a sense of confidence that the military has learned its lesson under this leadership.

more importantly, the military itself after trying to rule the country for two years and criticized heavily and in some cases the source of so much anger, they, themselves, have learned perhaps that they have to do things differently if they take control this time, which they say they won't do. they will put the hands of the government in civilian control as quickly as possible. that's their pledge. people in in tahrir seem to believe them. >> thank you very much. the george zimmerman trial is in recess for today. we will have a recap of today's developments, next. what are you doing? oh, hey. using night-vision goggles to keep an eye on my spicy buffalo wheat thins. who's gonna take your wheat thins? i don't know. an intruder, the dog, bigfoot. could you get the light? [ loud crash ] what is going on?! honey, i was close! it's a yeti! [ male announcer ] must! have! wheat thins!

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joining the pab el now, criminal defense attorney johna spillburr. the defense has a defendant who has told inconsistencies in his story. he doesn't know the name of the three streets in his community. he was looking for an address, there is an address right there.

he said he has a bad memory but he remembers specific dialogue that trayvon martin said to him. where would you say the defense is right now. are they in a position where they can afford to keep this guy off the stand? >> absolutely. i think you just made a great case for the prosecution. but i tell you what, yesterday was pivotal. iept /* iern the irony is, that's not the state's job. after hearing the video and what george zimmerman portrayed with the investigator in the video, the defense would be crazy to put him on the stand. there is no need to do that. let's not subject him to cross-examination. >> robin, can you respond to that? has the prosecution put on the defense's case rather than their own? >> i totally agree with everything that jonna just said. i think that's the problem in this case. one of the critical aspects and

that's why we see this break to get the school records possibly, and what the prosecution's kind of only hope right now is to impeach themselves or impeach george zimmerman from one interview compared to the reenactment interview, compared to what he may have said in the investigation and potentially what he says if he does testify. there is a jury instruction that says a witness who has been materially false once can be disbelieved for everything this they have to say. what they are trying to do here is they are not even trying to get to any truth. they are just saying that everything that has come out of george zimmerman's mouth could be a lie and therefore shouldn't be believed. >> and trying to poke, small holes, in the case of the evidence, forensic evidence. a very short, very brief testimony by one of the forensic examiners in the case, which essentially she said no dna on the gun. you can't prove that small element which is that zimmerman claimed trayvon went for, maybe touched his gun, that didn't

happen. has there been enough testimony to build for the prosecution a case that george zimmerman has been inconsistent? >> there are other items of physical evidence we haven't heard about yet. there is botanical evidence on the back of the clothing of george zimmerman. and it seems that little by little what he are hearing seems to support the close-in struggle with zimmerman on the bottom. the gunshot evidence indicates it was a very close-in shot, perhaps six inches to maybe at the most, 18 inches indicating a struggle. >> no blood. an lot of blood. no blood. no dna under the nails of trayvon martin. where is the forensic evidence of this struggle? >> sometimes forensics doesn't have all of the answers. but what you do have you use it to corroborate or negate the story that george zimmerman is telling. trayvon martin is not here.

. the prosecution is telling his story. i think they will be wrapping up soon. >> goldy, i want to go to the request that prosecutors made to bring in that george zimmerman went to school, wanted to be a police officer. studied the elements of the law. you do see in a lot of way he talks to police officers that he kind of sounds like them. that he uses terminology that a police officer would use. aep essentially he may even saw himself in that role. is that dispositive for the pros kougs to put on evidence that george zimmerman maybe understood the elements of how to defend himself even before police questioned him? >> i think that's a real issue. but i have to agree with the people who spoke before me. that even though i've got problems with george zimmerman's testimony, even though i have a problem with how it seems to not jive with the physical evidence we've heard so far, that i think the prosecution has got to put on a much stronger case. to get the conviction they are look for. >> very quickly, last word, what

do you think the reaction, just give me a gauge of how people feel about the way it is going. >> i don't think there is much expectation that mr. zimmerman will be found guilty. i think there are mass people invested in this case. i think there is little hope he will be convicted. >> thanks to the panel. we will be right back. when you experience something great, you want to share it. with everyone. that's why more customers recommend verizon, america's largest 4g lte network. ... you thought wrong.

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her long day of pick ups and drop offs begins with arthritis pain... and a choice. take up to 6 tylenol in a day or just 2 aleve for all day relief. all aboard. ♪ thanks for watching. "hardball" with chris matthews starts right now. was itself defense? and has the gop kissed off the latino vote? let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in wa