her long day of pick ups and drop offs begins with arthritis pain... and a choice. take up to 6 tylenol in a day or just 2 aleve for all day relief. all aboard. ♪ thanks for watching. "hardball" with chris matthews starts right now. was itself defense? and has the gop kissed off the latino vote? let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. in a minute, are republicans

ready to kiss off the latino vote? just tell them it take their vote and shove it? are they? and does it look like edward snowden truly man without a country? even one that will take him? this case will come down to whether george zimmerman believed he faced great bodily harm or worse at the hand of trayvon martin. what did happen in court today? to show that was or was not the case. nbc news correspondent craig l melvin joins us from sanford, florida. craig, thanks for joining us. this trial has a lot of twists and turns. i wonder about the prosecution. their witnesses are not exactly going in the direction, i think, that they hoped they would. >> yeah, you know what, chris, that's the point raised a lot today. specifically, you know, mark osterman was one of the witnesses that the state called today. mark osterman gets on the stand and within the first 90 seconds we learn that he is george zimmerman's best friend.

he said at one point that he is the best friend i've not had. they've known each other about five years. he wrote a book defending george zimmerman. his wife did an interview with dr. phil. at one point, dr. -- in the interview with dr. phil, the wife said that george zimmerman deserved to get -- or excuse me, trayvon martin deserved to get shot. the day began, chris, with judge nelson ruling on chief investigator chris serino's testimony from yesterday. chris serino at one point yesterday, of course toward the end of the testimony, serino said that he essentially believed george zimmerman. that was the testimony yesterday. there was of course an objection by the state. judge nelson told the jury that that was something that they should essentially disregard. that he should not -- >> what do you think of that as a reporter? how do you disregard something like that? i remember a great movie called

"anatomy of a murder" where the defense attorney said don't think of a blue cow. where there is nothing else that you can think of for the next five minutes except a blue cow. how do you strike that from your memory if you are a juror sitting there. >> once the toothpaste is out of the tube. very good question. we should note here that the day ended sort of, came down yesterday, with folks waiting on another decision by judge nelson. tomorrow at 8:30 the attorneys are going to continue arguing over some evidence that the state would like admitted, chris. specifically some course work on self-defense law. some course work on stand your ground law that george zimmerman may have taken. application to become a police officer with the prince william county police department, not far from where you are. prince william county virginia. and also this application that george zimmerman submitted to parties nate ride-along with sanford police. basically the state is asserting, part of their assertion all along, is that george zimmerman was a wannabe

cop. a wannabe cop. and they also played that interview today that fox interview with he was asked pointedly, do you know anything about stand your ground when you did this. and george zimmerman said no. so now the state is trying to introduce evidence that would speak to the contrary. so judge nelson gave the attorneys some time to introduce some case law. we expect that she may rule on that tomorrow. but we just -- we know at this point that attorneys will continue those arguments at 8:30 before the jury is brought back in after. >> that's great reporting. thanks, craig. we'll be back to you again and again. joining me now is former san francisco d.a. paul henderson. there he is. and defense attorney karen desoto. let's take a look at trial testimony before we get into this general conversation. let's look at the conversation here. let's go to they call him zimmerman's friend, mark osterman. osterman wrote a book called

defending our friend, the most hated man in america. he describes what zimmerman told him happened at the crime scene. >> what does mr. zimmerman say happened then? >> he said that because his jacket road up a bit, that with the, perhaps, with the inside of his leg, he felt or looked down and saw that he had a holster and a firearm. >> before the defendant said that, did he say that he desperately got both of my hands around the guy's one wrist and took his hand off my mouth long enough for me to shot again for help? >> right. that is the main thing he did with his hand was to try to clear his mouth. because with his mouth free, he could scream and he could breath. >> later in a trial today, lead defense attorney mark ow'mara asked about the series of event.

>> as he related to you, is that significant to him, that he couldn't breath or whatever length of time. >> it was critical. >> and that somebody add hand, trayvon martin, on the nose that sif suffered the previous injury. >> correct. >> as he related that to you, was that a focus of his? >> that was the focus. when he was losing oxygen, he felt he was not able to breath. that's why he was desperate to clear an airway. >> in your experience as law enforcement, would you agree that is a natural reaction to traumatic events? >> i would think so. every time i've seen it. >> do people involved in traumatic events like that sometimes focus on particular parts of it? >> almost exclusively to the admission of others. >> let me go to karen desoto. seems to to me, talking to lisa bloom last week, pretty good

trial attorney, what comes down to it, relevant or not, as they good on decided by the jury whether relevant or not, we go to the question of self-defense. that's the defense. and whether the defendant here in this case, george zimmerman, believed at the time he made that decision to draw and shoot his gun that he was in danger of gravest bodily harm. >> right. >> now we are getting testimony that doesn't seem to be challenged yet that there was a fight, a physical brawl. he was on a sidewalk. apparently agreed to that at some point. his head was hitting the sidewalk then the question is how many times does your head hit the sidewalk before you wonder if you are getting grievous bodily harm or not. are with we there or is that not stipulated at this point? are we that close to what some margin call here, judgment call, or what. >> there is one point, the self-defense is by preponderance of the evidence. it is not a reasonable doubt standard. it is more-probable-than-not. if you're at 50% and the jury believes at 51% george

zimmerman's version of the story, then obviously self-defense is going to win out here. but yeah, how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsy pop. how many hit to the head does it take before you are brain damaged. in determining that, you also have to remember that standard is a lot lower for self-defense. >> let me go to paul henderson. i want to get the facts straight. i'm not watching the trial every minute. i have another job to do here. it is called politics. this is in a general sense, political. because it is about the ethnic issue. let's face it. race, the way people lock at this trial. i wonder whether people are learning anything in this trial who watch incessantly. is this a learning experience or two sides looking at each other across the old racial divide saying, i see it my way, you see it your way, we ain't changing. >> it is funny you mention that. i get calls almost everyday from people watching this trial that are call meg and asking me questions. i have a little brother-in-law

school that calls every time something happens and want to know, why is this happening? but i think the real effect of what is going on in this case is outside the courtroom where we just saw, last last week, u.s. commission on civil rights is opening up an investigation to evaluate the stand your ground laws. >> but they are not envoccing that here. it is common law self-defense, i believe, that is at issue here. >> you are absolutely correct. but i think the trial and discussions prompted because of this trial are causing people to look at stand your ground and evaluate what is a result of stand your ground and is this trial one of the results from having that law on the books. the approach that government is looking at is whether or not there is racial bias. stand your ground -- >> these are questions in our society. but you first then let's go over to karen. i agree they are not stipulated, but if someone is on the ground and they are pounding his head

into the ceme doesn't have a choice of stand your ground. certainly before the scuffle or altercation began, he had the choice of getting back into the court as fast as he could maybe and get the hell out of there if this guy is a threat to him. is this stand your ground in reality when it come to the jury decision. is that the issue in that courtroom? >> no. >> i'm sorry. the issue in that courtroom is whether or not he used too much force in retaliating and using self-defense. we are looking and hearing evidence about what his injuries were, that they were minimal, not that significant. and so he is going to -- he is trying to pained a picture his life was in danger and that is why he pulled -- >> i can tell you, watching this and hearing people say, karen, he has a couple of lacerations on the back of his head. the word laceration just jumps at you. then someone says, they weren't that serious, the lat racilacer.

then, you worry about a plane and turbulence but when you look up in the sky from the ground, you're not worried about the turbulence. but if it is your head, you have a different view. in a jury's position, it seems there are so many cultural and val i'd -- 450 years of racial prejudice and slavery and horrible things and bad police behavior and all that bunched behavior and you get a verdict out of that or get a verdict out of the limited circumstances of who guys duking it out in the dark. >> chris, the racial ing angle, as a defense attorney, because the emotions are running so high here, what i would do is argue the facts. at the end of the day, the prosecutor decided to charge second degree murder. okay. the unwillful -- unlawful killing of a human being. >> is that too high? >> perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous and

evidencing a depraved mind. that's an extremely high standard. so you don't even have to get to the emotional of it. if you're a defense attorney you just argue the facts. argue the standard. they chose not to go with manslaughter. they went with second degree. >> i'm sorry. i agree. i got to give paul one chance here. was man slaut ear smarter chance or can the jury go for manslaughter if they decide murder 2 is too high? >> i don't think so. as i look at this trial and through the lens after prosecutor and i'm hearing the evidence of how he approached trayvon and literalliant hunted him down with his gun, i think the facts and evidence will support the charge of. here is the linchpin for me. i haven't seen this question asked. but i want to know with the semiautomatic gun, at what point did you take the safety off and prepare to shoot someone? if you were doing all of that or did this all happen in the moment while you were being smothered a and your head was being bashed? because all of this reflects to

me in the grand total of the evidence that i'm hearing that this may not have been an accident. this may not have just been a self-defense situation. this may have been more than that and that zimmerman acted inappropriately and could be found guilty in this case. >> thank you. we have to go. please come back. i can't just talk about the great attorneys here. thank you. coming up, why the gop decided they don't need latinos at all publicly. and leaning on the basis of the policy. pump up the white voter by removing illegal voteding. is this a smart move politically down the road. certainly for presidential politics, you have to wonder. edward snowden is living that real life movie "the terminal." remember that? no country seems to want this guy. he is stuck at the moscow airport. a rebel without a country. how is that russian airport food

getting to him? and getting together in east africa. also lauer wra and michelle. news from the two great ladies. now we learn from a distinguished reporter when his family voted overwhelmingly against his candidacy before the election, the vote was 2-10. he was on the 2 side. from running. he was way outvoted. he was voting against it too. what's going on here? this is "hardball," a place for politics. ning it. the ones getting involved and staying engaged. they're not afraid to question the path they're on. because the one question they never want to ask is "how did i end up here?" i started schwab for those people. people who want to take ownership of their investments, like they do in every other aspect of their lives.

we've got an early look of how the latino voters view the 2016 presidential race. let's look at the score board. marco rubio is the favorite among republican latino voters. according to a decisions poll, rubio more than doubles the second and third place finishers, chris christie and jeb bush. among democrats, hillary is the run away favorite with 65% of the latino vote. here is now the general election shapes up.

latinos prefer hillary clinton over mark whco rubio. we will look at how the republicans are trying to change their minds about even trying to get latino voters. no company can pay to be on angie's list, so you can trust what you're reading. angie's list is like having thousands of close neighbors, where i can go ask for personal recommendations. that's the idea. before you have any work done, check angie's list. find out why more than two million members count on angie's list. angie's list -- reviews you can trust. i love you, angie. sorry, honey. as soon as you feel it, weigh you down? try miralax. it works differently than other laxatives. it draws water into your colon to unblock your system naturally. don't wait to feel great. miralax. take the miralax pledge to feel better sooner. get a reward like a beauty treatment,

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welcome back to "hardball." love them or leave them. chats the choice facing the republican party when it comes to their views on hispanic voters. a rift within the party now that the immigration debate has made deeper, wider and certainly louder. on one side, you have republican leaders like senator lindsay graham who warned of things like demographic death spirals if the party doesn't turn around its image. and same concern in an op-ed ad saying more white votes alone won't save the gop. and in other words translation there focus on whites. they argue there are plenty of missing white votes to drown on

you demographics. hard white voters who didn't vote last time will desert you completely. this is fox's present human. voicing that yesterday. >> if republicans don't go for immigration reform, much as the senate has done, they are going to be -- they will never win another presidential election. bologna. if you look at statistic you find there is one significant block of voters who turned out in smaller numbers this time in a major way, way below expectations, below their '08 turnout, and that is white voters. >> what does it mean for the debate itself and whether it will pass because it will take both parties. joining us now are former rnc chair michael steele and jonathan elder, ager of the

great new book, "the center hold obama and his enemies" showing how obama won 71% of the latino vote and many other truths in your book, packed with facts and i love facts. i love giant details. >> i tried to explain it wasn't just an accident he got 71%. it was like under the radar, most anglers never heard of her. huge host -- ad with michelle obama and chris, here is the main point. if they hadn't run up the score, if they got 60 or 65% of the latino vote they still would have won the election but immigration reform would not be up right new at all. republicans would not have gotten the message. >> let's go with what we got. good work. we had a vote in the senate last

week. 76% of republicans voted against it. 14 votes out of 45 or 46. here is the question now, what do they do looking forward. if you are interested in presidential politics you have to consider 80% of the electorate is hispanic and it will grow over our lifetime. >> they can't wait for this. >> and you can say the district is 95% anglo, a certain term meaning nonhispanic. why should i worry about it? >> is becoming the prevailing attitude for a lot of folks that want to block and tackle saying, we are looking a the 2 million plus whites who didn't participate in the last election. i don't believe that's the case. they stayed home for a reason. a lot had to do with the nominee and prty as a whole. i don't think it was tied to an issue like immigration. it was about big government republicanism, et cetera. i think the party makes a big mistakes when it sits there and

stares 50,000 hispanics turning 18 years old every month in this country, looking that number and going, we still want to play the white card. >> probably too caucuses. >> party has to be bigger. >> they have a sensible caucus sensible on this issue and suicide caucus. >> let me ask you this. i think politicians are rational. i don't buy that we are all smarter than them. you're a politician, you're a republican, you have a district 95% anglo. or 90% white, if you will. you go home to them in the meetings you have to go to. you face the big question, why did you vote for immigration reform? that's a good question. and what is your answer if you're a republican? >> the answer is, you have the head of the local chamber of congress with you, and you say immigrant provide a lot of entrepreneurship if in the country. they are good workers. what else do we do with the 11 million here. >> that's not an issue with

republicans. they don't care. big question is, ms. smith or mrs. smith, will this stop illegal immigration? yes or no? what will your answer be. >> yes. >> you believe that? . >> it is already -- there is already very little if you look at it -- >> that's the economy. >> it is the economy but i think -- >> i don't think they like illegal immigration. >> what they remember is what was promised in 1986 that didn't happen under reagan. >> they were promised before. >> they were promised before. . they don't want to go down that road again. they want the lock on the fence to be secure before we give you anything else. >> how do you keep 30,000 guys on the border down there. >> as long as republicans have anything to say say -- >> and you -- >> see democrats don't believe in border enforcement, do they? >> i don't know about other democrats. >> do democrats care about border enforcement? >> i think -- >> do they believe in border

enforcement? >> less than republicans. >> why do they believe in -- >> right now, it is not even that big of a problem. >> why do they believe in it? >> i'm not defending it -- >> yes you are. >> you think nancy pelosi and the democratic party is concerned about immigration. >> mildly. >> you are covering. >> republicans in the house are facing very little pressure from hispanic voters. here's why. studies by the cook political report, which is nonpartisan, found that thanks in part to their own quarantining efforts, that's what they do, put hispanics and african-americans in the same district. only 24 house republicans are in district where latinos are more than 25% of and most districts are in deeply red parts of the country any way. they share the latino vote between 0 and 10% in 142 republican districts. majority of them. average gop district is 75% white compared to just 51%

white. put simply as the country gets more racially diverse, republican district have gotten proportionately whiter. why should they vote against their own political interests? >> because they have to think about their party also. and they don't want -- they shouldn't become a remnant party the way they are in europe. they want to -- >> so sacrifice themselves politically at home. >> basic point, which was an excellent point, is that to win with white votes, republican candidate and presidential election would have to carry the white vote by the same margin -- >> but they are not running for president. >> can i just finish the point. same margin as ronald reagan won when we carried 49 states. which nominee can get that -- >> let me ask, will the majority of house republicans vote for a pathway to full citizenship? >> no. >> no. but democratic votes get a bill through. >> how do they get a vote? >> john boehner has to walk his

way back from the so-called haster rule that says you have to have a majority of the vote. >> did you hear from that -- >> yes. >> john alter said you have to do this. >> otherwise she are slitting their throats long-term. >> have you it play chris, longer term. >> i don't think it will happen. thank you. don't forget to check out the "hardball" blog. there is much more on this story including by "hardball" reporter, benji. talking about how latinos learn to love their own base. find it at tv.msnbc.com and click on "hardball." up next, mitt romney didn't just lose the race for the white house among the electorate. his own family voted against his candidacy, even him. this is "hardball" a place for politics.

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welcome back to "hardball." time for the side show. turns out mitt romney's track record of winning election says worse than we thought. and yet to be published book on the 2012 election, dan baltz reveals an interesting anecdote about the romney family. the romneys took an internal family vote on whether mitt should run. according to the huffington post which saw an early copy of the book, the result was 10-2 he should not. one of the family voters against the run was romney himself. romney's cold feet had to do with an assessment of the republican party at the time. winning as a moderate from massachusetts who happened to be a mormian was dwg to be difficult. i'm not sure i could win giving those dinamings. tag fw romney said, even up

until the day before emade the announcement he was looking for excuses to get out of it. if there had been someone better to have run for president than he, he would have gladly stepped aside. quote i didn't think any of them had a good chance of defeating the president. and in some cases i thought that they lacked the experience and perspective necessary to do what was essential to keep the country on track. finally during an appearance on bravo's "watch what happens" live with andy cohen here, cher herself, gave msnbc a bit of an enforcement. that gave a surprise to someone else that happened to be on the set. take a look at the fun. >> are you still a big cnn and c-span viewer? >> yes, but i also -- i'm also -- i split my time between msnbc. >> okay.

>> oh! >> and he's down. >> that was anderson cooper hitting the deck there, appropriately. wonder if they knew what was coming or they wouldn't have asked the question. >> edward snowden stuck in the moscow airport, still. and is far, no country says they want the guy. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. thinking abo. which is why he's investing in his heart health by eating kellogg's raisin bran®. good morning dad. hi, sweetie. [ male announcer ] here's another eye opener. not only is kellogg's raisin bran® heart healthy it's a delicious source of potassium. ♪ mom make you eat that? i happen to like raisins. now that's what i'm talkin' about. [ male announcer ] invest in your heart health with kellogg's raisin bran®. ♪ and i'll never desert you ♪ ♪ i'll stand by you yeaaaah!

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and with the fidelity cash management account debit card, you get reimbursed for all atm fees. is that it? oh, this guy, too. turn more of the money you spend into money you invest. it's everyday reinvesting for your personal economy. i'm hampton pearson with your cnbc market wrap. dow dropped 42 points. s&p 500 down just under 1. nasdaq lost 1 point as well. u.s. auto makers saw a boost in sales for june. ford jumping 14%. chris letter sales up 8%. gm's increased 6.5%. manufacturing is improving. new owners for factory goods

rose 2.1% in may. political unrest in egypt pushing oil prices to settle just above $99 a barrel. that's it from cnbc first from business worldwide. now back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." nsa leaker edward snowden remains in a state of limb beif you will at the moscow airport, still there a nine days after arriving from hong kong. he is hoping to be granted asylum seems to be closing down by the hour. according to julian asinge and wikileaks snowden applied for asylum in 21 countries. however his prospects are not looking so good. brazil and india both flat out

said no. ecuador, fairly left wing government, he was trying to reach when he fled hong kong seems to be hedging on its willingness to accept him. venezuela's lead wear fs rush why and some suggested snowden might fly out of the country with him. but the president of venezuela suggested to reporters that was unlikely to happen. a host of other countries have said snowden would reach their soil -- would need to reach their soil to file for asylum. there's a catch 22. that seems unlikely. how will he get there? meanwhile russia made it clear there are preconditions for him to stay there in russia. david corn is washington bureau chief of mother jones magazine and jonathan capehart, both msnbc political analyst. jonathan wab i want it start with you. looks like russia is not mother russia when it comes to this guy. they set a condition saying sure you can stay here but you have

to stop what you do for a live which is electronically or digital with the united states. no more leaks from the soil of russia. he has to neuterize himself. so he has it turn out the lights it survive personally. >> right. when vladimir putin, when russian president putin said said that, you know, in order to stay, snowden would have to do this, it was rather surprising. russia isn't exactly -- and putin, they both aren't exactly the united states's best friend. >> where did that love come from? >> i know. and in most cases, they don't rise to the level of frenemy. here you have edward snowden who is there, leaving china basically from hong kong, which is china, going to moscow which was supposed to be a transit point before heading off to venezuela and -- i'm sorry, to havana and possibly venezuela. there he is stuck in this weird kind of limbo. as you said for the last nine days.

and he is apparently carrying these four lap tops. and it just is strange to think that the chinese in hong kong and russians in moscow have not avald themselves of the information on the laptops that he has. >> what do you make of that? >> well -- >> you think they exploited the situation already? >> i would be shocked if any intelligence service in the world, let alone russians and chinese, would not have tried to do whatever they can to get access to what he has. we still don't know what he has. we know who the washington post and the guardian of england have gotten a stash of document from him. they've go done a couple of stories, but not all of the stories they could, and they say there are some secrets they have not revealed. which are the type of secrets that -- >> do you believe his earlier claim? and i will be neutral because i have a mixed feeling about this guy. do you think he had the ability to to out agent and station

chiefs around the world? he said he could do that. all our top spyetsies in the wo he could out them right away. >> if he could, it would show a break down in internal controls. at one point he did work for the cia, couple years back. it is unclear exactly how he got into that job and what he did under that job. but he, as infrastructure analyst in hawaii, and it is unclear exactly what he did, he might have not a much more -- >> i thought -- i thought it was a euphemism for a guy that can hack into systems. >> it might be a guy trying it hack into other systems. in that position, fe had access to cia officers around the world, that would be a real break down in sort of internal security control. >> by us. >> by us. no doubt russians and chinese and anyone else coming into contact with him will want it to see what is on his computers. and i believe in the last nine days -- >> if mother jones was a

country, would you let him in? >> we're not quite at that stage yet. >> that's a trick question. i want to know your mind-set. yesterday wikileaks, who sponsors this guy, released a statement on snowden's behalf. now it is reported that after promising ton do so the president, that's our president, ordered his vice president to pressure the leaders of nations from which i have requested protection to deny my petitions. this deception from a world leader is not justice and neither is the extra penalty of exile. these are bad tools of political aggression. their purpose is to frighten not me but those who would come after me. i'm not sure that's so true. i think they are trying to get him. but jonathan this whole question, i always ask this about people who do extreme things, like saddam hussein, and khadafi, ending up in storm suers or -- what do you call them, spider holes or some place that didn't seem like a good plan b. this guy seems to have had no plan b. >> exactly.

>> what is his plan b? >> damned if i know, chris. for him to say -- to accuse the united states of forcing him into exile, remember, he said in the interviews with us and the guardian, that after he did this, he left his family. he left his job. he left his life in hawaii throw weeks before the stories hit. he did this to himself. this is not the united states going after him proactively. the united states is going after him because, one, he stole secrets and two, he stole national security secrets. what did you expect the united states government to do? >> that's a request that -- i think he wanted -- i'm just looking at head glasses and designer and all, and he wanted to be a celebrity of sorts. sort of a hero. >> he may think he is a hero or martyr for justifiable cause. i spoke to somebody who has been involved in getting the stories

out and this person describes saying that he believed, snowden believed, it was a suicide mission. at the end of the day there was no way he would get away with this. and h in that way, have a life free -- >> how did he presume this? >> how did who? >> the suicide theory. >> someone involved in getting the stories out. it makes sense. >> but it is not a suicide. he is in the -- he is in moscow national airport. >> well not suicide physically. but you lose any prospect of future life living in happy secure way. i think he knew at the end of the day, snowden knew, he was not going to get away with this. in the sense he would end up in jail, or under house arrest, or maybe in -- maybe at best, at best, looking at julian asange -- >> i hate to sound like a regular establishment figure, but to some extent i am. jonathan, you work at "post." why didn't he go to a fairly

left wing of congress. get them information and give them 48 hours to do something with it and if he didn't do what he wanted then go his route. he had a way to get this all accomplished. >> a lot of comparing snowden to the pentagon's paper fame. that's what he did. went to two members of congress in the senate. when they didn't move, he then gave the papers to us at washington post. he went to "the new york times" and 17 or 18 other publications when the people who had the power to do something didn't move. and also like edward snowed yde elseburg went into i'd hiding. if snowden want to be a hero, if

that's what he considers himself, he should have done it here. >> i shouldn't have said left wing. he could have gone to rand paul, a real libertarian. any way, it is possible. there are other things beside ending up in russia. thank you david corn. jonathan, thank you, jonathan capehart from "the post." this is kind of fun. here is michelle obama. of course and laura bush together in east africa. they went a long way it get together. but they did. this is the place for politics. together. but they did. this is the place for politics. together. but they did. this is the place for politics. together. but they did. this is the place for politics. together. but they did. this is the place for politics.

>> that's egipt's embattled president, mohamed morsi. that is him announcing he is not stepping down from power. morsi's defy sunsetting up confrontation from the islamic brotherhood which he announces his support and egyptians angry own his reforms two years after they removed his predecessor, hot any mubarak, from power. look at that. we'll be right back. hot any mub. look at that. we'll be right back. ohot any mu. look at that. we'll be right back. shot any mu. look at that. we'll be right back. khot any mu. look at that. we'll be right back. hot any mub. look at that. we'll be right back. nhot any mu. look at that. we'll be right back. ihot any mu power. look at that. we'll be right back. ot any muba. look at that. we'll be right back. t any mubar. look at that. we'll be right back. any mubara.

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while people are sort of sorting through our shoes and our hair, whether we cut it or not, you know -- >> >> who would have thought? >> i didn't call that one. >> we're back, of course. that was first lady michelle obama and former first lady laura bush joking about the attention given to ms. obama's bangs earlier this year while mrs. obama joined her predecessor in dar es salaam on the last day of the eight-day tour of africa where she helped mrs. bush kick off the african first lady summit hosted by the george w. bush institute which is meeting over there. the two first ladies bined their star power to draw attention to improving access to education, health services, and economic opportunity for women and children across the continent of africa. joining me now for a couple of minutes to talk about it is

political analyst ronald reagan and joan walsh. one of the good things about george w. bush was the strong effort he made is the idea the united states really helping to wipe out aids in east africa, really working on it. >> hugely important. and also, this issue that these two women have come together on, chris, hugely important. we see in the developing world that when we invest in women and girls, those countries do better. the women wait longer to have children, to get married. they get education. their children are healthier. their children get education. there is such a multiplier effect. it's so important. to see these women come together around that specific issue and lend their credibility to that issue is really heartening. >> but it's been my experience in my two years over there, the women do the hardest work over there, not just the child bearing, the child raising, all the work, making the beer for their husbands. they do all the work. and men once a year do the plowing. it's not a bad deal if you're a

guy, but the women deserve the credit, i think. your thoughts. >> yeah, absolutely. this is a sort of issue that doesn't get a lot of play in the halls of congress in washington, d.c. but as joan was saying, it's an enormously important issue. these sorts of issues globally, if you empower women, the world improves. >> what do you make of the first lady's role? i want to talk about it. joan, it has surprised me someone outgoing in personality if you're lucky now meet her, i think i did it once, or every christmas, you realize what a charmer besides everything else michelle obama is, the first lady, and yet she has kept herself away from the hot issues. let's face it. >> well, i think her work on childhood obesity and neighborhood food access is really important, chris. i think she chose an issue. she was in a can't win situation, you know, and she really did decide to become the mom in chief. but these issues could really transform low income communities. so i think they're important. and i respect the role she has

played. i think it's a role she is comfortable in. >> so women if they're first lady don't have to be hard charges like hillary clinton went throughout and led the charge on health care. >> i think she is a hard charger in her own way, but everybody probably learned from the example of hillary clinton. everybody is going to have a different style. >> you a mama who was first lady. you have some -- >> yeah, some people probably wouldn't like to think so, but michelle obama has been a very traditional first lady. she has chosen an issue, childhood obesity, which is right in the comfort zone for first ladies, and still, still at that you can remember sarah palin waving her snicker doodles around and accusing her of being the totalitarian nanny state for really wanting kids to eat their vegetables, for god's sake. you really can't win sometimes. >> i think your mom and her were both very good, highly educated women, professional women who know the workplace but also know academia. there is nancy reagan, your mom.

your mom picked just say no, the whole drug thing isn't going to go away, is a problem. are you proud of that? >> a traditional issue, leak laura bush with edge. hillary clinton different, eleanor roosevelt, different. even to an extent mrs. rosalynn carter at the beginning of the carter administration tried to get in on cabinet meetings, tried to be a little more active in policy. that didn't fly too well either. >> we're looking at the former first ladies, and the one that stands out is hillary clinton there. what would be the role of a first -- what would we call them? >> first gentlemen? >> first gentleman, first spouse. we might have to make it gender neutral for a while now that we're going to have women presidents. i think it would be different if it was bill clinton, i don't think it would be a quiet domestic role for sure. he would be an interesting person to start that. >> i don't think he would limit himself to one issue. that was a joke. thank you, joan walsh and ronald reagan. thanks, buddy.

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let me finish tonight with the life and career of william gray. he was elected u.s. congressman from philadelphia, north philadelphia, the poorest area of the city. he had been a major local figure as pastor of the bright hope baptist church out there on north broad street. he was a man of good solid ambition, an african-american, he refused to consign himself to local politics, but set out the win power across the full expansion of capitol hill.

he ran for chairman of the budget committee. he won the position by winning the votes of white members from the south. he won those votes by campaigning for those members among the black communities of their districts. he went on the road in order to win power back in the congress itself. he knew how to forge the bonds, and he forged them. he knew where was needed, and he went there, because it's the only way to become a leader. i was a friend of bill gray. who was the speaker of the house whom i served, tip o'neill. well, the same drive and gumption that won him that influential chairmanship would win him majority whip, make him the first african-american to gain a position in the congressional leadership of either party. after leaving the u.s. congress, gray went on the head up the united negro college funding raising billions of dollars for that organization. bill died yesterday in london, watching the wimbledon tennis tournament with his son. he is survived by his equally impressive wife andrea. what a significant figure this man cut in his time.

he showed that the one way to rise is to seek to rise, as essential to becoming a leader as to ask people to make you theirs. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "politicsnation" with al sharpton starts right now. thanks, chris, and thanks to you for tuning in. tonight's lead, were george zimmerman's injuries really life threatening? that was one of the key questions raised today in his second-degree murder trial. today a medical examiner testified that the injuries mr. zimmerman allegedly received from trayvon martin that night were, quote, insignificant, a claim that could undermine his claim of self-defense. also today, the lead investigator testified mr. zimbabwe may have profiled trayvon martin the night he shot him, acting out of, quote,