event, did it perform properly? did it shoot its projectile the way it was supposed to? >> the gun functions, yes. >> so it worked, correct? >> yes. >> and it worked the way it was supposed to? >> yes. >> there was no suggestion that the pull distance was malfunctioning in any form, correct? >> no. there was no indication that anything on this pistol was mal functioning -- hi, i'm joy reid in for alex wagner. you're listening to the trial of george zimmerman. amy stewart is testifying. let's listen in. >> how you load it, you have to -- i call it rack it, when you pull back the slide? >> yes. >> so that you and the jury knows that racking it means pulling the slide back to

actually put a cartridge or a bullet in the chamber being ready to fire? >> sure. >> okay. a and you say that a person, mr. zimmerman, because we know it to be his gun, yes? >> yes. >> would have racked it to make it ready to fire and put another bullet in the magazine to reload it, correct? >> yes. >> is that a usual occurrence in your experience dealing with firearms? >> i typically see a wide variety of -- >> okay. >> -- of -- >> sorry. i interrupted you. you did not consider that to be an unusual occurrence certainly, did you? >> no. >> matter of fact, to the law enforcement officers here and every other law enforcement officer that has a chance to see, that is normal. that is, one racked in a chamber in a full magazine, correct? >> yes. >> military do that, correct? >> i'm sure.

>> in fact that's the way you make that gun as capable as can be for whatever the need may be, correct? >> to have it fully loaded? >> yes. >> correct. >> then we've talked about the shirts themselves. i'm not going to go into having you look at them just yet. we might be able to avoid that. you had said that the two shirts sort of lined up, correct? >> yes. >> and by that you mean there was a hole through one and a hole through the other and when you took the shirts and lined them up they matched, correct? >> correct. >> you're not suggesting that because of that that the shirts are in any particular configuration on the body, are you? >> no. >> they were where they were, but certainly the bullet went through both shirts where they were lined up with the bullet hole? >> yes. >> okay. >> and let's talk about the action when you say contact. mr. guy suggested pressed into

and i think you corrected him to say it was touching, correct? >> yes. >> there is no evidence, for example, that would show up that you would take a gun nuzzle and push it into the shirt some way where the shirt would fold around it, was there? >> no. it was consistent with the muzzle of the firearm touching. >> it was consistent with this, correct? >> yes. >> shirt, firearm. >> yes. >> wasn't consistent with this, pushing or anything? >> no. >> that would have shown up in a completely different configuration to you, right? >> to me contact is when the muzzle is touching the fabric, whether it's light touching or whether it's pressed in all the way, the fact that the muzzle was touching the garment itself was what i had determined. >> had the gun sort of been smothered by the shirt or by a sheet then fired, you would have

seen a much different patterning on that, right? because the firing would have then wrapped back around it somewhat? >> potentially if it was wrapped around it. >> correct. >> matter of fact, any configuration that suggests something other than flat would have shown some different stipply potential or burning from the way the flame would have bounced around, correct? >> in terms of farther away or closer? >> no. if it was in contact -- okay pushed in to the extent that it folded the fabric around it that, would have shown a different type of burn pattern potentially, correct? >> potentially if the sweatshirt had gone over the top of the ejection port area, there would possibly be marks from that but otherwise whether it was lightly touching or pressed in, it would be the same type of physical

effects that i have seen. >> when you say touching, is that a term of art? it actually was touching or in this case when you saw a couple of i thought you said you saw a couple of little burn spots of maybe powder that had escaped, is that consistent with the -- an eighth of an inch away, a quarter of an inch away or what? >> no, it's consistent with the muzzle touching the garment itself. >> and that you can tell because there was some tearing itself, that's the way a projectile itself at that range rips through the fabric? >> yes. >> did you do any examination to identify the distance that the bullet traveled before it hit mr. martin's chest? >> no. i only examined the clothing for distance determination.

>> if i may have a moment, your honor. >> yes, you may. you've been listening to the george zimmerman trial. firearms expert amy sewart is testifying. lisa bloom is with me and former prosecutor and seema ire is with me. se seema, i want to start with you. the significance of the gun to the entry wound that was on trayvon martin or on his clothing, what's the significance? >> the significance is actually just setting up the their self-defense, right? because what this witness is saying is that if the muzzle was lightly touching or even pressed up against the fabric, you would see the same pattern, which would be different than if the fabric was, let's say, wrapped around the muzzle of the gun.

and mark o'mara seems to be trying to push her in his direction yet she's movable. >> she's holding on to t. earlier today, lisa, the judge -- earlier this morning the judge ruled that past evidence of george zimmerman's instruction in criminal justice could come in as well as his application to ride along with sanford police. what's the significance of that? >> first of all, listening to that testimony this morning had to be a bit of a refreshing break from the jury from hearing all of the details about the fight that they've heard from so many different witnesses. now we're hearing that he was a criminal justice student, that he got an a in a class where he was taught stand your ground and self-defense. despite the fact that he told shaun hannity in a videotaped interview that he didn't know anything about stand your ground. i think the prosecution's really going to run with that to show, number one, it was a lie, number two, he was capable of coming up with a self-defense story on the

spot the first time they asked about it. >> we'll go back into the courtroom and listening to amy sewart. >> pulled the trigger to fire the gun at that point in time. >> that's it? there's nothing else you have to turn off and adjust, you just pull the trigger? >> correct. >> they do make firearms with what you refer to as an external safety, right? >> yes. >> can you explain to the jury what the purpose of those is and what they are? >> sure. an external safety is typically a button, a knob, something that you physically have to engage to prevent the firearm from firing. >> and where is that -- where are those typically located on the firearm? >> more times than not you'll find them right back here on either the left or the right side but those are typically referred to as some safeties as all you need is your thumb to disengage it or engage it. >> that firearm does not have any type of external safety? >> no.

>> all right. >> with the firearm in the condition that it is right now, unloaded, are you able to demonstrate for the jury how to pull the trigger and to make that sound? >> your honor, may she do that? may she demonstrate pointing into the wall? >> yes. >> i'll use my left just so you can see. >> that's all someone would need to do to fire a shot if it was fully loaded. >> yes. >> thank you, ma'am. judge, that's all i have. brief if i may. this gun, the safety mechanism requires that same amount of pull for every time you want to shoot the gun, correct? >> yes. >> you agree that the other semi-automatic weapons, a number of them while the first shot may be a double action pull, the

ones after that are single action, correct? >> yes. there are some firearms designed that way. >> and sighauers are all that way? >> some of them, yes. >> you can rack it, shoot with a 4.5, 5 pound pull distance, every other one is feather weight, right? >> a single pound trigger pull is going to be lighter than a double action trigger pull but when you have a firearm that's both single action/double action, pulling back on the slide and releasing while you chamber a cartridge will leave the pistol in single action so firing it that way will be the single action trigger pull which will be lighter than a double. however, a lot of these firearms also have what's called a decock safety which is essentially another thumb safety where you depress it and it will allow the hammer to fall without causing

the gun to fire and then by pulling the trigger at that stage is going to be a double action trigger pull while all remaining ones if you do not decock are going to be at the single action trigger pull, which is lighter. >> so with this gun, if i want to shoot it one time, 4.5 inch pull, correct? >> 4.5 to 4 3/4 pounds pull, correct? >> 4 3/4 pound pull, correct? >> yes. second shot, 4 3/4 pound pull, correct? >> yes. >> if i had my sigsauer, same one, 4 1/2 pound, correct? >> the relevance of a different firearm? >> any -- >> sustained. >> any other firearm that goes from double to single, i think you probably could -- now i'm moving onto the next question. >> we're still talking on firearms other than this firearm. >> well, she had now

identified -- if i might be heard. >> the objection is relevance. that objection is sustained. >> then she did firearm additional safety measures is that each pull has to be the full pull, correct, as opposed to shifting to a single action after the first pull? >> that's a design feature of a pistol that's only either single action or only double action, whereas, the same trigger pull. >> the second, third, fourth pull require a 4 1/2 or 4 3/4 pull. >> yes. >> that's different if it was a single action, correct? >> yes. >> thank you. nothing further, your honor? >> any redirect? >> no thanks. >> may she be excused? >> she may. >> thank you very much. you are excused.

okay. we're listening to the second degree murder trial of george zimmerman. we just heard testimony from amy seward who was a firearms expert. seema iyre is with me. can you explain why mark o'mara is focusing on the single action versus double action? >> o'mara's trying to set up that george zimmerman's actions were spontaneous, they weren't thought out, they weren't for lack of a better word premeditated, that george zimmerman was under an immediate at th attack and he did it only once whereas the prosecution was showing it was a more deliberate, well thought out process. >> going back to lisa bloom. i go back remembering the opening statement. one of the lines that was more memorable, ready to fire. george zimmerman had that pistol in ready to fire mode. is this in a sense resetting all

of the arguments that john guy made, wanna be cop, profile trayvon martin, pistol in fire mode? >> absolutely. i think this witness was very clear on that. really, unshake bli clear on that, that he was walking around with a gun in his holster that had a bullet in the chamber ready to fire. there was no external safety that had to be unlatched before he could fire. that gun was good to go and he used it as soon as he needed it. i think that completely supports the prosecution's point on that. the defense's point is that we need to still hear from probably the medical examiner who did the autopsy on trayvon martin because the defense point is going to be that the bullet hole shows that trayvon martin was over george zimmerman in a diagonal position as the bullet shot went through the shirts and into the body at an angle that substantiates that. we haven't heard from the witness yet. >> seema, i'm struck now by there's a lot of criticism of this prosecution of the way

they've conducted the case. i do now feel at least for the last two days that they are very carefully and methodically constructing a profile of george zimmerman, somebody who wanted to be a police officer, who behaved as a police officer and i think this evidence to date is further sort of cementing that image of george zimmerman, wanna be cop. >> i think what you've been hearing, joy, because you have so many of my legal colleagues playing monday morning quarterback. you have to think about this, big picture the prosecution has it right. they have the map. they have their vision of how they were going to get a conviction. what they don't have and what the problems are are the little nuances. they're not objecting enough. they simply are not objecting enough. we ended the day with serino, i believe that was monday or tuesday, with this bombshell and then they didn't decide to do their motion to strike that testimony until the next day. >> witnesses, even police not on their side. >> that goes to the issue, joy,

of this time delay between the arrest. that's why they put up the blue wall of silence that we hear so much about. the police, you're on your own, buddy, i have to protect myself. >> thank you very much to nbc legal analyst, lisa bloom and seema iyre. a mill tear try deadline has expired. we will go live to cairo for the latest on that story next. go! go olive garden. go 2 for $25. go father, daughter. go mother, son. start with unlimited salad and breadsticks. share a pair of apps. then choose 2 of 5 summer entrees. like spicy shrimp vesuvio or new tuscan garlic chicken. so have a date night. have a double-date night. go 3 courses for 2 people just $25. go olive garden! we're all family here.

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outside cairo. he says several senior muslim

brotherhood leaders have already been rounded up and arrested by authorities. here in tahrir square there are very large crowds. these are people who are already celebrating what they see is an army campaign backed by the police against the muslim brotherhood. a concerted effort by the military to remove president muhammad morsi to isolate him. this crowd began to get very excited an hour or so ago that there are rumors that president morsi is placed under house arrest. the army and the state newspaper have said that is not true and that morsi remains inside an army barracks but according to one aid it is not entirely clear how free president morsi is to actually leave that army barracks. we are still awaiting a statement from the army, a statement that was supposed to be issued after the expiration of that deadline. that deadline is now over. still, no statement but it is

likely to come from egyptian state television and sources have told us that the egyptian army is now also positioned at the television building and to a degree controlling his content. >> i want to read a statement quickly. nbc's charlene dubash is in cairo. we had been told that a full military coupe is underway. the tanks are on the move throughout cairo. some muslim brotherhood high ranking officials have been arrested. this is confirming what we have done from richard engel. i want to go to a man. is that the sense that you're getting. the military is in charge, not president morsi? >> that's a word that's being used by supporters of the president there describing the military infringement in politics as a military coupe. those who are welcoming the news are described as the military

implementing the people's will. they are not using the word coupe but certainly when you look at the maneuvers of the military, the fact that it is the one that is issuing the statement, it is the one that is trying to supersede the divisions of the politics and get parties together, the military has definitely taken the upper hand and is to some extent in control of the ma military. i want to go to p.j. crowley as a former state department official. how dicey is this for the obama administration? how do you deal with this? this is a change in government to an elected government. the u.s. had affirmed the legitimacy of the election. now you have a situation where the elected president of the country is incommunicado. how will the administration be dealing with at this point? >> i think over the past several days every official in the united states government from the president do you know to an assistant secretary in charge of the region have been communicating constantly with

their counterparts just to figure out what are you going to do? united states recognizes that it's a spectator largely at this point as richard has pointed out. it's not the actors in this situation or the army, the opposition and the existing government. it will be up to the united states just to kind of figure out what's going on, who's doing what, and obviously depending on what unfolds and how it appears there will be ramifications and policy debates about what are the implications based on what happens in the coming hours and coming days. >> going back to richard. one of the demands that we heard about from the crowd has to do with governance. has to do with the way the country is being administered. since you have an initial suspension of the government, walk us through how it would work. are we talking about the army actually running egypt if, in fact, morsi has been deposed or is this some other organized ep at this time at this besides the muslim brotherhood that

organizes to govern? >> well, those are all very good questions. we don't really know is the basic answer. what we have been told from the army which has issued somewhat vague statements is that the way it might han is that the morsi government would be pushed out. we don't know how that would happen. the army would oversee a transitionary government that would be mostly civilian. a committee of experts. they would write a new constitution because the current constitution which was overseen by the muslim brotherhood, that current constitution would be suspended. the parliament would be suspended and that this transition air ri interim government with the military oversight would write a new constitution and have new elections and then the military would step back. as aymen said earlier, these people are not celebrating because they want military intervention, they want the

military, yes, to intervene, to remove muhammad morsi. then they want the military to step back and allow for a civilian government. that's why they are nervously not using the word coupe. they want the military as a powerful body to remove the muslim brotherhood and oversee the transition process. even among the celebrations there are people that are welcoming in the military and welcoming in the door they might not be able to close it. they could have another situation like they did with 30 years under mubarak and before him was sadat. >> thank you to nbc's richard engel and aymen moyheden. we'll have more after this. ctuay ease arthritis symptoms. but if you have arthritis, staying active can be difficult. prescription celebrex can help relieve arthritis pain

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>> former pennsylvania governor ed rendel. business insider, josh barro. senior correspondent, anna palmer and bloomberg view analyst, john. i want to quickly go back to p.j. crowley on this. i think the term diplomatic crisis is too easy to throw around. this is obviously a very awkward situation for the u.s. government as well as governments around the world who now are dealing with an egypt that is completely in flux. we don't know who's in charge. >> well, it's very, very important to the future of the middle east. obviously the middle east is important to the united states. egypt is the political center of the region. and if egypt continues to struggle but move forward on a path towards democracy, that has one implication for the region. if egypt falls backwards back into autocracy, that has other

implications. the united states is watching this and will influence it in the margins where it can. the united states is largely a spectator in this event. >> p.j., at what point does the u.s. recognize a change in government and recognize it as legitimate? >> i can recall during the bush administration the awkwardness of con da lisa rice issuing statements about venezuela where there was an attempted coup in that country and having to scram nl because it didn't turn out the way they initially thought it did. at what point do you say, okay, it's time to move forward and recognize the change of government and try to interact with it rather than isolate it? >> well, obviously a democratic process is part of it. i think part of what makes it unique is a presidency. right now there's not a functioning parliament so you don't have a second pillar of democracy to rely on as well. a lot will depend on whether there's a general sense that this is moving a path towards improved democracy. i think it's civilians play a

larger role in the interim government, it's better than if the military plays a role. how fast will they get back to an election that produces a government that has clear legitimacy. i think there will be competing narratives here. obviously from the muslim brotherhood standpoint they're saying, hey, we won an election. it's fair and square. on the other hand, they've been governing in a way that is democratic but not liberal. going forward, the process towards democracy add inclusiveness, bring back into influence the opposition, other elements of egyptian society, women, for example? does going forward you have greater protections for, you know, minorities and so forth? i think a lot of this will be in the eye of the beholder. the two leverage points to the united states, one is military assistance to egypt. if this is a coup, then that military assistance can be suspended. by the same token, if the military is opening a door for

improvement in the democracy, maybe there's flexibility there. also, there's international assistance to egypt's economy. this is very, very important. as we reflected, the egyptian economy is poised to collapse so the only dimension will be how fast can egypt put all of these pieces back in place getting back to a legitimate government, an elected government, the speed of that will determine how the united states responds. >> okay. i want to remind you that we're watching live pictures. live pictures from tahrir square in cairo and egypt. that's an extraordinary set of developments. i want to come back to the panel. jonathan, you've written a book about the president and his comportment. the president gave a very famous speech in cairo in which he tried to position himself vis-a-vis the arab streets and recognizing the flowering of democracy after the united states has a history of supporting dictators in the region. can you talk about these sort of changes that we've seen a year

later, almost another arab spring. >> the diceyness of this situation notwithstanding, the street that we're seeing now is the street that the president was addressing in ky row in 2009. what he wants is a new generation of arabs who respect democracy, who are more secular, which is one of the fascinating dimensions of this that hasn't been commented on. these are not all secularists but largely they're reacting against the muslim brotherhood isl islamasist strangle hold and their implementation of government policy. so these are the people that obama was addressing in that speech. and if this ends well, which is a big if, that could be seen as some sort of not a victory, at least something that was in keeping with what he was trying to unleash.

>> governor ridell, almost a two-step revolution. the dictator was overthrown. more of an islamist face and put on the democracy. part two what the people were restoring which is what they wanted, pure democracy. >> sure. the problem, jonathan set it up. there's a good side for the u.s. that this leads to a more secular government. there's also this whole process which is violating one of our basic principles, and that is we want to not impose, we want to help get democracies in operation. well, democracy is you have an election. you don't like what the people in power are doing, you wait until the next election. and, you know, there's sort of two things clashing. >> here's where it might end well is if they can force morsi to declare what in parliamentary systems they declare early elections, meaning he has to put himself forward again. >> that doesn't seem like what they're about to do. >> let's let p.j. crowley in on

this. that is the question. you've worked in this field, in the diplomatic field. how does that work? if, in fact, our goal is to have democracy flourish, how does that comport with our policy? >> well, we do support democracy but democracy is more than just elections. morsi was elected but then he's katered to a narrow base. it's protesting against something more. we're not sure, number one, whether these people will accept the departure of morsi. number two, you have to have that two years ago. >> you counter balance it. in egyptian politics.

>> even though morsi's gone, there's no guarantee here that the opposition is going to present a viable alternative. >> isn't that part of the problem, right? there wasn't a really organized entity other than the muslim brotherhood that could get itself together for the election. >> people in the arab world are working on that. >> the government will continue this intent. from the u.s. perspective, i always worry about these sorts of revolutions.

we don't know -- >> just a few days ago we were supporting morsi. had really backed what they were doing. you don't know who's going to rise up into this next iterations of democracy or if it's going to be more of a military strong hold. >> the consent of the government. >> it will be much harder for them to be in this kind of democratic society. >> i want to give p.j. crowley an opportunity.

awkward for the administration. it's a struggle in an emerging democracy. >> the governance -- >> it's going to take time. you have high expectations but then you have potential for fragmentation. we've got to make sure that we find a way to help egypt help itself in terms of having a functioning presidency and pay attention to all elements in an egyptian society but conceding to a parliament that represents a wide cross section of egyptian society and over time putting the military in its rightful place where you have genuine civilian control. >> this is a process that will take 10 to 20 years. we'll bring you any new developments as we get them. thanks so much to p.j. crowley. we'll be right back after this. ♪

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the latest drama in the snowden saga has all the makings of a spy thriller. after the plane of bolivian president en route out of moscow was rerouted to austria. this after france and portugal reportedly refused to allow the plane to enter their air space on the suspicion that edward snowden might be aboard. the concerns came after morales who had since left vienna was in moscow for an energy summit where he made an offhand remark that he would welcome snowden into the country. the bolivian president accused the u.s. of being behind it. they called it an attitude of sabotage and destruction by the united states. a post is retreated by wikileaks, obama not scrambling jets to find snowden, merely closing down european air space and detaining a president. but france and portugal denied

that they had refused access to their air space. while the u.s. had no official reaction to the claim, they told bloomberg news the pentagon didn't ask nato allies to deny overflights to the planes. earlier the state department refused to acknowledge any diplomatic arm twisting but said it was speaking to countries considering snowden's petition for asylum. >> what we've been communicating is what we've been communicating publicly, that mr. snowden has been accused of leaking classified information. he is somebody that we would like to see returned to the united states, of course, and we are hopeful that that will happen. >> and so for now edward snowden appears to be stuck in the transit area of moscow's airport with none of the 21 countries to which he has applied for asylum willing to grant his request. meanwhile, in an open letter to his son, snowden's father is trying to shift the debate back to what he believes is the real

issue at handwriting that snowden is, quote, a modern day paul revere summoning the american people to confront the growing danger of tyranny and one branch of government. all right. still with us, p.j. crowley is still with us, former state department spokesman. i want to ask you just sort of how this works. we're getting all the inside scoop of how the diplomacy works here. how would the u.s. if someone was in moscow, we want him back, he's not coming back. he wants to get into another country. is it a matter of calling fellow presidents around europe and saying, hey, don't let this guy in? >> well, it's exactly what we're doing, which is to make clear that the united states wants edward snowden returned to the united states and raising the political stakes and raising the political costs for countries that may or may not be in a cooperative mood. it's a delicate balancing act.

on one hand you make clear you want him back and on the other hand you don't make it a matter between president obama and president gee of china and president obama and president putin of russia. you want to handle it through channels. if a country rebuffs the united states, it's about legal issues, it's not about presidential issues. >> and not an issue about president obama and ed snowden because there has been this attempt to say, listen, i'm not elevating him to that status. >> absolutely. i think they're taking the act very seriously. they don't want to popularize him and make him a big hero in the online community and beyond in terms of making a country want to take him in because they want to be seen as somebody who's going to stand up to the u.s. >> stand up to the u.s. is the question, josh, because there are a lot of levers that the united states has that might make a country take pause, take a second thought about bringing in someone who leaks our secrets. people may be reluctant to jeopardize that. >> sure. also, i think the other countries may not see that much

up side in allowing edward snowden. the main thing you get is to poke a stick at the united states. >> riske. >> the president of ecuador is smart. why do i want to get into the middle of this. >> right. >> he's been fairly hostile to the u.s. why does he want to get involved in this? what the administration is trying to signal. it would be good to get edward snowden back and try him, they want to send a signal that if you abuse that and you leak classified information, we will go to great lernts to find you and return you and try you. so they need to show that they're making the effort. it's not so much that they need to get him back. >> governor, i want to add another element to this which is the wikileaks angle. there was a great piece, short but by daniel dressner in fo foreign policy. states will war with one another, spy on one another,

foment revolution across borders, they're pretty reluctant to enact powers. as snowden alliance himself more closely with wikileaks, more and more countries will look ascant at what he represents. >> sure. i think that's pretty relevant. when it gets to something that's a principle and other leaders have to worry about, it's a different kettle of fish. i wanted to say a word for the french. i know they denied that they kept the plane out of the air space, but i have to believe they did and it's about time the french stuck up for something. >> let's throw everybody else in there. india, poland, germany refused snowden outride, austria, iceland. >> remember, they wouldn't allow our planes over, remember that

clause in the iraq war that caused all the antifrench feeling. >> let's not bring back the freedom flies. you've written about president obama and this has been interesting. this has created an alignment of the libertarian wing in the left looking at obama saying why has he not refused all of these powers that people feared and opposed under george w bush. this brings that issue back. that's what snowden's father is bringing back, the notion of state power surveillance and barack obama with that part of what could be described as his former base. >> rand paul is describing snowden as a hero. >> right. >> look. there's a lot of misunderstanding about this. in 2006, 2007 i went on television with glenn greenwald several times on this network and we were debating obama's position, which at the time before he was president was to continue the surveillance programs which "the new york times" and reported upon, but he

wanted it under a legal framework, under a legal law. >> in fact, he voted for it. >> right. so greenwald at the time went crazy and said, barack obama is not a real progressive. now he's arguing the other side saying the main point is it needs to be legal, which it wasn't for much of the bush administration. and that's been obama's position all along. so progressives who think this is somehow a departure from the old barack obama have not been reading the history of the period. >> right. in fact, he voted for -- the irony of all of this, of course, is that when the warrantless wire tapping under the bush administration was exposed, the response of the democratic congress with nancy pelosi as speaker of the house was to pass a fiza update that codified this into law and what snowden released was a court order. >> right. as it's being implemented by the obama administration is not what it was thought to be by congress.

snowden has done several things at once. i think he's released certain information that has produced a valuable political debate. that's what his father wants people to focus on. that's accurate. at the same time, he leaked other information to do with specific surveillance information on russia and china which there is no clear public interest in having been a release of. even if you have good reason to do certain things, there's good reason to know what you do about top secret administration. >> what we need is what obama has promised which is a national conversation on balancing -- >> which we did not have when that law was debated. >> it's easier for the government to know about us, it needs to be easier for us to know about the government. >> quick round. should snowden come home? governor rendell, should he come back and face the music? >> if he believes what he says, he should come home and face the music. a jury may decide he did a positive thing and quit him. you're in the a hero if you hide

out. so he's not a hero hiding out in russia or china. >> because that was so elwill e eloquently said, we'll end on that. i want to thank p.j. crowley for being with us. remind you that we still are watching developments in tahrir square. these are live pictures of that. hundreds of thousands of protesters still gathered demanding the ouster of embattled president muhammad morsi. stand by for more live coverage at the top of the hour and we will be right back. engineer: rolling...take 13. geico's defensive driver, good student and multi-policy discounts could save you hundreds of dollus. engineer: uh geico's discounts could save you hundreds of "doll-ars." it sounds like you're saying "dollus." dollus. engineeif you could accentuate the "r" sound of "dollars." are...are... are... engineer: are... arrrrrr. arrrrr. someone bring me an eye patch, i feel like a bloomin' pirate. geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent

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thank you to governor rendell, josh, anna and john. that is all for now. don't forget to tune in for friday for msnbc's coverage of the essence festival. alex is kicking off "now." she'll have julian malveaux and

essence's george bush and yours truly. log in to facebook.com with "now." "andrea mitchell reports" is next. you'll find reviews on everything from home repair to healthcare written by people just like you. no company can pay to be on angie's list, so you can trust what you're reading. angie's list is like having thousands of close neighbors, where i can go ask for personal recommendations. that's the idea. before you have any work done, check angie's list. find out why more than two million members count on angie's list. angie's list -- reviews you can trust. i love you, angie. sorry, honey.

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to talk with an insurance expert about everything that comes standard with our base auto policy. and if you switch, you could save up to $423. liberty mutual insurance -- responsibility. what's your policy? right now on "andrea mitchell reports", egypt on the brink. massive of protesters fill tahrir square as president morsi refuses to heed the millmilitar demand to step down. now will they oust the egyptian leader. did you discuss specifically self-defense and stand your ground laws in the connection of violent crimes such as murder? >> yes. >> also, the latest from the george zimmerman murder trial.

new testimony on just how much zimmerman knew about florida's stand your ground law. legal experts will join us to break down the case as we bring you the trial live on msnbc. good day to you. i'm craig in sanford, florida. also in for andrea. we will see more witness testimony in the zimmerman trial. the jury set to return at 1:45. this morning's discussions revolved around zimmerman's background, specifically his attempts to enter the law enforcement profession and what he may have heard about it, about this state's stand your ground law before the night trayvon martin was fatally shot. jurors learn more about the gun used on february 26th, 2012, from a crime lab analyst called by the prosecution. her name is amy seward. she also details her examination of the clothing worn by trayvon martin that evening as well. i want to go in and bring in msnbc legal analyst, lisa bloom.