that it was a shot from an intermediate distance. and i think it was explainable. it was a contact shot. >> dr. kobilinsky, thank you very much for joining us tonight. egypt blows its top. let's play "hardball." >> good evening, i'm chris matthews back in washington, leading off tonight, the prosecution begins to rest its case in the george zimmerman case. but did it make the case for murder two? did it beat the case for self-defense? did it? or did it simply show weaknesses in its witnesses and in its evidence? but we start tonight with the military coup, yes, military coup in egypt.

today, the army overthrew the elected government and took power itself. what's this game-changing event mean to democracy in the most important country in arabia? what does it mean to peace in the region? well, think of a situation in that part of the world. in afghanistan, the taliban is dying to get back into power. in iraq, the sunni minority stands ready to overthrow the government. we, the united states, put into power through the sweat, blood and the deaths of our soldiers. in syria, assad fights off the rebels in what promises to be an unending war. what a neighborhood. and in too many of the cases, the united states gotten involved in a local war between shia and sunni, a battle that's lasted 1,000 years. it isn't going to end just because uncle sam has joined the rumble. nbc's chief foreign correspondent richard engel is in tahrir square. both at the square and today's muslim brotherhood rally. and now we have richard engel.

thank you. take all the time you want. tell us what's going on in cairo. >> reporter: well, i will start with what is happening right here in this square. enormous celebrations, a great outpouring of enthusiasm, obviously fireworks, obviously cheering, lots of music. people here believe that this is really the end or the latest phase of the revolution that began in this square 2 1/2 years ago. and if you go back and see what happened 2 1/2 years ago, students came out, ousted president mubarak, and what happened? a transitionary government came in. that didn't go well, they were in power for about another year, year and a half. then elections were held and the muslim brotherhood won the election, which these people saw as a major disaster. now they have called on the military once again to intervene

to remove the muslim brotherhood and they are hopeful that based on the last experience when there was a transition government that they can manage this transition period better and put in a better government to come out in the streets again and demand political change. that's happening here. across town, a much darker scenario. the losers in this conflict, the muslim brotherhood and their supporters are enormously angry. one of their main locations has been surrounded by the army, several of their television stations have already been rated. they are saying they are already being persecuted and that does not bode well for the future here. there are concerns that the islamists who are being driven out of power now we think they're being chased down could go underground, could become an insurgency. the concern is such that the u.s. embassy, which is really not far from this square at all has ordered the departure of all nonessential personnel and their families and is even advising

american citizens to leave this country. so the question is, there are celebrations here, many angry people across town, the u.s. embassy is nervous. is this as good as it gets? or tomorrow, does this -- is the start of another phase of conflict where you have religious passions mixed in in a disenfranchised religious group that wants to take its vendetta on the people here and the military? >> let me ask you, richard, most people looking at this incredible scene late tonight in cairo are asking, are those people satisfied with what happened today? are they united about what they want to come later? >> they do seem to be united. they're not all from one group. they all seem to be supportive of the road map that was put forward by the military and also which was backed by the members of civil society, religious leaders, the most senior christian official in this

country. they all back this road map which is morsi's out, we don't even know exactly where he is. the latest reports are he's at a ministry of defense building. he hasn't made any statements since the announcement ousting him. there was one statement leaked out which he said the revolution has been stolen from him continuing a defiant line. but they do seem, at least here, united that there will be morsi's out, a transitionary government, we're not sure how long it'll last. the military and members of civil society will supervise that. the writing of a new constitution, new elections, which people here hope will go a lot better than the last elections. but there's a larger question here and a larger scope of this. and that is, is this the end of political islam? but i'll answer that, i'll get to that in a second. >> we'll be right back with you, rich, on that great question.

give us a sense of that ashraf. >> well, the mood at the pro-morsi rally, the muslim brotherhood rally when i left there was about 4:00, 4:30, which is about an hour before the military really made its move. and it was very defiant. they were trying to put on a brave face. i asked if they were worried, oh, no, no, we're not worried. but at the same time, there was a sense of kind of helpless frustration and anger. i think this has been inevitable since the night before when morsi, i guess, when mohammed morsi the former president, i suppose, gave a defiant speech basically challenging the army to remove him. but people there were feeling very disillusioned. they feel like they've been ganged up on, they've been sold

a fraudulent bill of democratic goods. one man spoke with us said, look, i know he's unpopular. i know he's made mistakes, but, you know, he's elected. if you want to remove him, remove him by an election not by a protest. one man predicted they are not going to leave there's going to be blood on the streets and it's going to be on defense minister's hands. on his hands. that was the quote he gave me. >> before we get to what might happen. was the muslim brotherhood government of morsi, mohammed morsi, where was it taking the country? was it taking a gradually and smoothly, inevitably towards a real islamist state like you have in iran? >> really the brotherhood didn't make all that many on the ground concrete moves that took the country toward sharia. there were elements that could've opened that door, but

they didn't really do all that much in that regard. their primary crime in the eyes of the protesters and really where they lost the country was just in not being inclusive. they played exclusively to their base. they shoved this constitution down the throats of people and said, hey, we have the votes, this is it, you're sore losers. they ignored the idea of consensus building. and arguably, with morsi, mohammed morsi this fragile divisive nation that was still trying to figure out what kind of country it needed to be, his number one priority arguably should have been consensus building. but instead of going to the center, they went to the right. they allied and used those numbers to jam it down the country's throat and spread so much bad will and animosity. it's remarkable the number of people i've spoken with who either voted for morsi a year ago or were at least happy when over a military guy.

the number of people i spoke with that a year ago when you talked to them were saying, no, no, give him a chance. let's try to work with him. and you talked to these people a year later and they're like, no, he has to go right now. i'm talking about opposition activists, politicians, the people that really working with the brotherhood a year ago. they're the ones feeling disillusioned now. and that's why he's no longer president. >> richard, as a journalist, you've grown up ith egypt. i know the stories you've told of growing up there and improved your arabic and got a sense. what would you call this chapter? tonight's chapter in egyptian modern history? >> well, i think it is the -- the end right now of the muslim brotherhood's flirtation with power. the muslim brotherhood and, yes, when i lived here, i lived in a very poor back neighborhood where actually the muslim brotherhood had a great deal of sway. and it was very popular when it

was a clandestined group. it had the power of the mosques. whenever there was corruption in society, they could say we don't a act that way, that's not who we are, that's not what we believe in. and generally they were popular in a lot of slums. when they came to power as ashraf was just describing, they were terrible at governing. they didn't reach out to other people, they were bullies, intellectual and religious bullies. they allowed many extremist clerics to open television stations, filling the society here with some very radical messages. the sinai normally a place of tourists, a lot of people from italy would come, sometimes they would wear a very skimpy bathing suit and drink beer on the beach. when the brotherhood came into power, it became an ungovernable waste land really where people were being kidnapped, soldiers were being kidnapped, there were repeated attacks against israel, there were repeated attacks against pipelines.

in fact, the israeli army built a fence to wall itself off from the sinai. it was a pretty bad experience of the muslim hood in power. now i think they've said i don't want it anymore. they're not rejecting it writ large, but people in the square are muslims, they are proud to be muslims, but they blame the muslim brotherhood for manipulating religion, using it like a banner on its chest, a superman's "s," if you will, that gave them the power to do whatever they wanted. and i think that backfired against them. the question now, will this set the tone for other of the new arab democracies? if they say, well, the islamists who took power weren't particularly successful, brought the country backwards, now is there going to be egypt setting the way for a different type of a new phase in the arab spring?

>> when i think of egypt and we all do, we think of it as an ancient culture, an ancient country, a real country, not confected by the europeans, by churchill or after world war i, there's a real country of egypt that preceded islam. what is egypt today? is it egypt or is it just part of islam? >> well, if you asked the people here right now, they are reclaiming egypt. and it is not just the egypt of a specific group. the group that saw history began with islam 1,400 years ago. there were slogans in this square uniting muslims and christians. there have been christians in this country going back to the earliest days of christianity. so this is an -- obviously an ancient culture. but for a period, it was, as you said, ruled by one vision, ruled by one group that saw history beginning with islam and that was the correct way to lead society and that, yes, there

could be tolerance toward other communities but not genuine respect. >> i see. >> thank you so much, richard engel, you're the greatest reporter in the world and thank you for coming to us from cairo the night of this incredible event. and thank you, ashraf kalili thank you for your great reports on the muslim brotherhood and how they're taking this. and when we return, we're going to get reaction from the white house on what we've been watching here all day today, the president has spoken, we'll give you what he said. by the way, coming up later, the prosecution in the george zimmerman case seems to be trying to broaden the lens beyond just the night. will that work?

here's news, americans approve of the supreme court decisions made last week on marriage equality. according to a new "washington post" abc news poll, 56% approve striking down part of the defensive marriage act and agree

that legally married same-sex couples should have the same federal benefits given to other straight married couples. anyway, 41% disapprove of that court decision. look at 'em.

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you're missing a good game over here. those kids wouldn't have lasted one day in our shoes. [ male announcer ] add a wireless receiver. call to get u-verse tv for just $19 a month with qualifying bundles. rethink possible. welcome back to "hardball." you're looking right now at the incredible scene as you saw before in egypt's tahrir square as crowds celebrate the overthrow of mohammed morsi. administration officials now here in the u.s. have been monitoring a situation throughout the day, of course. the pentagon reports the defense secretary chuck hagel has been in contact with egypt's defense minister and marines are currently on standby in case they're needed to protect u.s. interests, especially the embassy, which isn't far from what we're looking at right now. president obama convened a meeting late in the day with secretary hagel as well as brennan and the joint chiefs. the head of the joint chiefs martin dempsey. and the president released a statement.

and for more on what's going on at the white house, we go to peter alexander also to joe ruben. i've got to get to peter on this. thank you for joining us. what is the nut? what is the heart of the president's statement? >> well, let's read some of it to you right now. we're going to put it up on the screen right now and your viewers can read along with me. this is the statement from the president that reads the united states is monitoring the very fluid situation in egypt and we believe that ultimately the future of egypt can only be determined by the egyptian people. nevertheless, and listen to this, he says we are deeply concerned by the decision of the egyptian armed forces to remove president morsi and suspend the egyptian constitution. i now call on the egyptian military to move quickly and responsibly to return full authority back to a democratically elected civilian government as soon as possible through an inclusive and transparent process and to avoid any arbitrary arrests of president morsi and his supporters.

there were some other parts of this what i think is a four paragraph statement from the president. we waited hours thinking we perhaps might hear from him. ultimately came in the form of a paper statement. but the president, chris, has also directed the relevant agencies and departments within his government to review the u.s. aid to egypt right now because there are significant implications. he wants them to review the implications of that because the u.s. law says that the u.s. cannot continue with that aid in the event of a coup. so it couldn't be paid unless this is a temporary transition. the american government gives to egypt roughly $1.5 billion, a large portion of which is military aid. some of it humanitarian aid as well. and there's been a perception among the protesters there in egypt that in some ways the u.s. overlooked the crackdown by morsi's government. as long as he agreed, the morsi regime agreed to maintain the peace treaty with israel.

one of the significant issues at play in this conversation. you talked about the meeting that took place here. the president presided, he chaired a meeting of his top national security advisers that took place here late this afternoon. we'll show you a picture of that that the white house has just released within the last five minutes. you can see the president is there. he was joined by his new national security adviser susan rice there to his left. she, of course, just took over this post three days ago replacing tom donalin. chuck hagel, his chief of staff, john brennan was there, eric holder. >> couple of points here. first of all, you read -- of course i agree with you, that's the nut of the statement by the president. but he didn't say -- he said how concerned we are as a country. at the fact of this military coup overthrowing the elected president mohammed morsi. but he doesn't call for the reinstallation, restoration of

morsi's regime. he says, basically, called to election, in a way, aren't we saying thanks for doing that, we can't agree with the way you did it but we like the results and all we want is a new election? >> well, perhaps, i think that's a pretty decent way to put it, one of the other points we're browsing through this e-mail we got from the white house a short time ago. he said when the democratic political order that now takes over is put into place, it should include participation from all sides, all political parties, secular and religious, that's referring to the muslim brotherhood among others in the situation, civilian and military, the white house in many ways as we've been noting is now hoping that in egypt they can calm the situation, send the millions of people home and find some new democratic order to take over in the morsi government's place. >> it sounds like we're taking sides with the people we're looking at right now. the people calling for an inclusive government that isn't just an elected government but remains responsive and represented throughout the

country after election. it's not just one side wins and that's the end of democracy. >> yeah, no, i mean, i think that's a pretty decent way to analyze this right now. as we look, i'm reviewing some of the notes. again right now, the white house also says no transition to democracy comes without difficulty. but in the end, it must stay true to the will of the people. so ultimately, that's what you're looking at. the president in his conference and phone call the last time he spoke that we know of to president morsi was monday called on him to allow the democratic process to take place saying america's commitment was to that democratic process before any party or any -- or any individual. in this case, it seems that our commitment is to the vast number of individuals, this mass of people who believe this is what should take place. >> what an interesting alliance we have to the egyptian people as opposed to the government. let's go to joe who worked at the egypt desk. when peter talked about the fact this new statement from the president suggests we might be

threatening with pulling out the money we give to the military there. well, there's an obvious catch 22 there. if we yank the money we gave them starting with the camp david accords in '78 when they made the peace treaty, what have they got to lose there? >> there really is a catch-22. and that statement was very much dancing along that line. congress has put pressure on the administration to put conditions on the aid to hold some of it back. for a variety of reasons and what the administration is trying to say is they really want the process to go back to where it was process wise, but again, let the results be determined by the egyptian people. our relationship with the egyptian military has been ongoing for decades. it's strong it's essential. it matters to regional security to stability with israel. and we don't want to see that disappear. >> let me ask you, joe, for a real expert question. knowing what you do in egypt being on the desk there, how is

your confidence level they could have a workable, say like an indian style democracy, a large country where they do know what democracy is and they can adapt to it and live with it after all these years of being ruled by the military? >> well, we're witnessing, really 30 plus months no one predicted. egypt was not seen as revolutionary state by the time i left the desk about five, six years ago and over the last several decades. and what the egyptian people have done is demonstrated over the last 2 1/2 years they have a real interest in their future. their eyes have been opened up. this -- this latest episode was initiated and instigated by a petition drive that got 22 million signatures from egyptians. that's a quarter of the population calling for morsi to step down. i think that we have to have confidence in the egyptian people. and as this administration

statement said, we also have to make sure we're pushing them in the direction that people are calling for. but, yes, we do also need to make sure that the violence doesn't break out and that they really are respecting the broader pluralistic goals of what the revolution called for 2 1/2 years ago. >> thanks so much. let me go back for one last time with peter alexander, the fact that the president put this out as a paper statement rather than going on television, what does that tell you? >> i think that's interesting. we've noticed that's sort of been the modus operandi. certainly of significance, the white house put that out through treasury department blog on what seems like a critical event taking place now on the other end of the world not too far away from where the president was traveling again. we hear this in the form of a paper statement. >> it is strange. anyway, thank you, peter alexander for a great report this evening. we'll have more from egypt later in tonight's program.

but up next, the latest on the hot trial for george zimmerman's life, pretty much, he's going to go to prison for a long time. this is "hardball," the place for politics. we do a ton of research projects on angie's list.home... at angie's list, you'll find reviews on everything from home repair to healthcare written by people just like you. with angie's list, i save time, money, and i avoid frustration. you'll find great companies and great angie's list discounts. you want to be sure the money you're about to spend is money well spent.

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in the george zimmerman trial today, the prosecution focused on dna evidence this afternoon. but the focus this morning was on zimmerman's background and specifically a college criminal justice course he took. prosecutors hoped to show that zimmerman was more familiar with florida's self-defense laws than he intimated in an interview with fox news last year. seems to be part of the strategy to broaden the lens of the case beyond just the night of trayvon martin's death. will it work? craig melvin is in sanford, florida, today. thank you, craig, as always. why don't we let you give your sense of your reporting on what happened today in this perhaps last day of prosecution testimony. >> yeah, you know what, chris, we thought, at least for a while it was going to be the last day.

judge nelson indicated earlier that the state had told her that they wanted to rest its case today. that did not happen. judge nelson adjourned to the jury for the fourth of july holiday but told them to be back earlier than usual on friday. coming back friday morning at 8:30. it's expected, expected being the operative word here that the state at some point friday morning or perhaps friday afternoon will call one or perhaps both of trayvon martin's parents. but we do expect to hear from sabrina fulton on friday. it's widely believed she's going to be the last -- the last witness for the state. at that point, the prosecution will start to present its case. as you indicated, much of the day spent on dna evidence, anthony gorgone, dna expert for the state, major highlights from his testimony. for the most part, none of trayvon martin's dna found on the gun grip, none of zimmerman's dna found under his fingernails. the defense did spend time

raising some questions about the number of varied ways that dna samples could be degraded. also, again, as you indicated, they started with a win for the state, the state had been arguing to get this evidence, to get this evidence in, that george zimmerman did know a little bit more than he let on about the law. also that he wanted to be a cop. we heard from someone from the prince william county sheriff's department in virginia who said that, you know, zimmerman applied several years ago to be a cop. that application was rejected because zimmerman had basically a poor credit history. we also heard from captain alexis carter who taught a criminal litigation course to zimmerman. said that zimmerman was an "a" student in that course and also said in the course they covered stand your ground, you'll remember, of course, the fox interview that was played for the jury yesterday.

zimmerman said point-blank he had no knowledge of this so-called stand your ground law. but today, again, his professor saying that was essentially not the case. also allowed into evidence an application to ride along with the sanford county police. again, the state trying to demonstrate that george zimmerman wanted to be a cop, was, perhaps, a vigilante, as well. so, again, that was the evidence that was introduced this morning. there was also some firearms evidence. firearm analyst testifying earlier today that based on what she discovered she could tell that the .9 millimeter was fired at essentially point-blank range, it was touching trayvon martin's sweatshirt when it was fired, chris. >> thank you so much for that, craig melvin. let me get to lisa bloom and joseph haines davis joining us, as well. lisa bloom, let me talk to you about or ask you about this whole thing about the sweatshirt with the hood on it and whether

the gun was in contact with just the sweatshirt, which apparently they stipulate it was, it was up against the sweatshirt, but it wasn't necessarily proven so far to be up against the body of trayvon martin who died. and my question is, why is -- if it's the sweatshirt, would they be thinking he's carrying the sweatshirt with him? how would it be hitting the sweatshirt and not the body in any reasonable scenario? i don't understand this discussion. >> great question. here's what the defense says. the defense says that trayvon martin was straddled over the body of george zimmerman and his body was diagonal over him, and because of gravity, the sweatshirt separated from the body of trayvon martin and that's why it went through the sweatshirt but not the body. and they show the physics of that essentially establishes that zimmerman's story that he was on the bottom, trayvon martin was on top. that is what the defense argues. >> but this was prosecution witness. and it seems so many times in the last several days that would look to be a prosecution

spectacle and an effective one turned out to be coming the other way. you weren't even sure who the witness was. whose witness it was. >> well, that has happened a number of times and it's going to take the medical examiner to come in and testify about the autopsy on trayvon martin's body. and we'll hear more about the flesh wound that bullet caused. >> let me go to joseph. thank you for joining us here. it seems to me the prg case is wide. it's a very wide lens. they're not trying to fight -- at least they're focused on the moments between these two men encountered each other the terrible night, in between the moments, or seconds that relapsed between the meeting and the death of one of them, trayvon martin. they want to pull back the lens to look at a mindset question, a question -- let's talk about his wanting to be a policeman, his possible vigilanteism that night. tell me about why they pulled back the wider lens?

>> well, they have to, chris, and thank you for having me. because the fact of the matter is, the prosecution has had some tough days with their own witnesses. i've been suggesting, you know, in theory, that the prosecution in their summation and their closing might want to ask the jury given the fact that george zimmerman was a concealed weapons holder legally and had the gun legally as to whether or not he acted as a reasonably prudent concealed weapons holder with a florida concealed weapons license on the night of february 26th, 2012. and that includes not leaving out of his safe zone, which was in his car. i mean, there are a tremendous number of concealed weapons holders in this state, chris, i being one of them, that knows that when you are out and about and you see something, quote unquote suspicious, you make the call to the nonemergency number, you give the information, you

step away, you walk away, you might walk back to your home so that you are not looking like you are pursuing or aggravating the circumstances. you are not deputized to begin to start to search. if when you are retreating, for lack of better terms back to your house or whatever, if you're out of the car, walking the dog or something and that threat comes toward you, then it's another issue. but in this instance, if mr. zimmerman does not get out of the car, we are not having your show tonight. >> let's hold on to that, hold that thought. the audience too, we'll be right back with lisa bloom.

welcome back to "hardball." we continue to watch the celebrations in cairo. look at them right now live after the military ousted egypt's elected government over there. and we'll have more on that in a minute. but first, the latest in the george zimmerman case with lisa bloom and right now joseph haines davis, a criminal defense attorney in florida. mr. davis, i've got to get to you because i know you have to leave. let me give you something you haven't been asked. this is what i love to do on this show. >> yes, sir. >> suppose everybody, and by the way, i'm surrounded by people who think he's guilty. all my family, my liberal sons, my liberal wife, everybody thinks the guy -- zimmerman's the bad guy. i live in that world. i have other people with differing views too. my question to you, it's a scary one. imagine somebody was ten feet away from this horror that happened that night in the san

anford and took a crystal clear picture of everything that happened. everything that happened from the time these two guys met, however he came out of the bushes, walked toward him, didn't walk toward him, everything including what looked to be a fight that ended in a wrestling match with a gun going off. i still people would have different verdicts. and the reason i say that, i'm asking you i should say that is because people talk about the surrounding context. they talk about the fact he shouldn't have gotten out of his car before the encounter occurred. he shouldn't have had this police mentality going on. he wasn't a cop, and all that and they say that's what matters. and not what happened in the scuffle. my question to you, is that a problem we have here, even the facts aren't going to clear this case? >> it might be. but chris, it's my understanding that some of the jurors up to four of them are familiar with, quote unquote, guns. it has been reported. and as a result, i believe that the fact that he left the car in

light of something suspicious for me is telling. now, again, ethically because i'm a member of the bar and it's a case in front of a court that i practice in front of periodically, i'm not going to sit here and make a prediction or do anything unethical on the chris matthews show. i can say as a concealed weapons holder, when you see trouble, you report it. and you walk away. and you stay within your safe zones. that's how we are trained. that's how we think. >> is the penalty for that murder two? >> it quite possibly can be depending on a sequestered jury panel. >> okay. thank you for joining us. we'll get back to you next time we get hold of you. he practices down there. let me go to lisa bloom. i remember you saying the other night, i'm always looking for controversy here. i heard you say the only thing that matters in this case is not the box it came in, not all the racial history, the 450 years of bad history and all kinds of questions about police and our system and not the question whether this guy thought he was

a cop or possible vigilanteism. what happened when these two guys met and who ended up feeling they were in danger of injury and therefore, drew the gun and used it? >> i think what i said was the legal question is at the moment that george zimmerman took the life of this teenager, was he reasonably in fear of great podly injury or death. that's the legal standard. that's such a difficult question to answer because you do have to take into account the entire condition text. here's a piece of evidence in this case. >> why do you have to take it in context? you're saying it differently this time. you've changed the way you're saying it. >> i don't think i'm saying it differently. >> why is it, if you said the question is his mind-set. was he danger he thought of great bodily injury or death. if he thought that at the time. >> reasonably fear. >> if he's right in his testimony, if he's right, his head was being pounded into the sidewalk. if it's true, was he within his

rights to make that judgment? >> okay, but the prosecution says his injuries weren't that bad. maybe his head was pounded once. maybe he got punched once. >> how many times would you let your head be pounded if it's true. >> you capital take out a gun and shoot and kill someone. >> fets true, how many times would you let your head be pounded into the cement if it happened that way? two, three? >> but look, i wouldn't summa african-american kid walking around in my neighborhood is up to no good and follow him against the advice of police. >> sure. but you're the lawyer. what is the criminal charge here, murder two. what has that got to do with his mind-set ten minutes before? what's the mind-set ten minutes before have do with it. >> it has a lot to do with it because a finding of murder two is a finding he intentionally took this life with a depraved mind. can i tell you about this piece of evidence that nobody's talking about that i think is important?

george zimmerman had a bluff from the lead investigator who said we have a videotape of this incident. turns out there is no videotape of the incident but zimmerman responded with elation. he was so hopeful. he said, oh, i'm so glad. i hope there is a videotape. he pointed out some video cameras in the community he hoped would lead them to a videotape. does that tell you something? >> what's it tell you? >> that he thinks that his story is true. whether it's true or not, when he says trayvon martin was on top attacking him and assaulting him, he was very -- either he was very hopeful there was a tape or he's an extremely good actor. >> if the tape did tell the story that he told, would he be innocent? >> if he was getting his head pounded, and he was getting punched in the face and as he says trayvon martin threatened to kill him and reached for the gun, clearly that would be a self-defense acquittal verdict. >> lisa bloom, thank you for joining us again.

thanks for joining us. when we return, millions of egyptians are celebrating at this minute. the ouster of the country's islamist president, the one they elected. what does the military coup mean for our own country? u.s. interests here. united states. how are we doing in this thing? looks like we have nothing to do with it. this is "hardball," the place for politics. want younger looking eyes that say wow? with olay, here's how. new regenerist eye and lash duo. the cream smooths the look of lids... softens the look of lines. the serum instantly thickens the look of lashes. see wow! eyes in just one week with olay.

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warning u.s. citizens now living in egypt right in that country to leave the country at this time. immediately in other words, because of the continuing political and clearly social unrest after today's military coup. the state department is also warning u.s. citizens to put off travel to egypt at this time. there goes the tourist business. we'll get back to the incredible demonstrations in cairo in a moment. "hardball" back in a moment.

celebrations continue in tahrir square, the scene of military events in egypt. mohammed morsi has been ousted by the state's military. the constitution has been dissolved. rejoining us by phone from cairo is ashram khalil. and former state department egypt officer, joel rubin. joel, i'll get to you in a minute. i want to get to mr. khalil over there. it looks to me like the united states might be a little better

off in the short run, because we now have a government run by the military which seems to be a stabilizing force against a government that looked like it was moving more and more islamists, and, therefore, at some point anti-american. how do you read it. >> it's hard to read where u.s. interests lie. you do have the end of the muslim brotherhood leadership. although, it was never really overtly anti-american. the u.s. military, which is now in charge has strong ties to the americans. but the muslim brothers played nice with washington, they said all the right things with israels. they weren't anti-american or anti-american interests. the incoming government, whatever form it takes will be less threatening to american citizens. and that's a good thing. but there is also a precedent with an elected president being

ousted for bad politics especially after one year. that may cause a problem with the u.s. in terms of stability. if whoever's the next president has a bad first year, you can bet the muslim brotherhood is going to be out there screaming for his head. it's hard to tell. it's a mixed bag. >> let me go to joel rubin. after years of listening to the bbc on radio when i was in the peace corps. i always said, conditions are stable. generally old powers like us, and we're an old power now, like stability. what are the chances we're going to get stability in that country where tourism will come back, the economy will pick up and there will be less chance of the country being radicalized after this? >> well, stability is what egyptian people are calling for, i think as ashraf points out, the last two years have been very destabilizing for egyptian politics and egyptian people.

they did come out of three decades of stability. which clearly was a facade. so they're going to need to be inclusive, this process has to be different from the last one where the government was led by the military. then the muslim brotherhood took over and ran roughshod over the rest of the players in cairo. it needs to be more inclusive, and we saw it today in the press conference when the announcement was made of this takeover. the broad swath of egyptians, the society represented. nonetheless, the brotherhood, they've been in this battle and this type of battle before, decades of it against mubarak and the military. it's essential that those in the brotherhood who are not necessarily behind morsi, but can be engaged are engaged. and that they're not made to be outside of this upcoming political process. >> mr. khalil, the good thing about military coups, they

settle in short term. can they find a way to diffuse egyptian society? >> if they're going to do that, they're going to have to learn the lessons from the last time they ran the country which was just a year ago, there's definitely -- keep in mind there's a 15-month after hosni mubarak was pushed from the stage by the original revolution. we were here under the supreme counsel of the new forces. they were unpopular, repressive, they seemed to hate being hated like that. they weren't used to being in the position where people were yelling against them. they're going to try to do it differently this time. the defense minister, it was a

different tone than when the country was running after mubarak. this was very inclusive, you have the coptic pope, the head of an empire. they tried to present the broad inclusive picture. the hope is they learned their lesson from their last disastrous attempt to run the country. >> great thinking and great reporting. joel rubin, i think it's fascinating. we have a military in this part, whether it wants to be popular, knows the mistakes of the past. this may be a good sign for a future stability in egypt tonight. we'll be right back after this. look at them kids...

they have no idea what it was like before u-verse high speed internet. yeah, you couldn't just stream movies to a device like that. one time, i had to wait half a day to watch a movie. you watched movies?! i was lucky if i could watch a show.

show?! man, i was happy to see a sneezing panda clip! trevor, have you eaten today? you sound a little grumpy. [ laughter ] [ male announcer ] connect all your wi-fi-enabled devices with u-verse high speed internet. rethink possible. let me finish tonight with this, the u.s. policy in the arab world tonight is up in the air. we used to be able to count on our allies in the region. jordan and the palestinians. we used to count on a group of countries that were mischevious and rejectionist. those being iraq and syria. today we face question marks in all those countries, if not now, at some point in the very near future. the challenge from iran remains, of course, as it has for a while, ever since the overthrow of the shah, the question is how to settle down a region that seems increasingly prone to blowing its top.

president obama, secretary of state kerry, and the rest of the american team i assume are giving this one all they've got. and that's hardball for now. thanks for being with us. have a safe and happy fourth of july. all in with chris hayes starts right now. good evening, from new york, i'm chris hayes. what you just heard is the moment today that egyptian security forces apparently stormed the studios of al jazeera television in cairo during what is being called a military coup. millions have taken to the streets in celebration, and president morsi is reportedly under house arrest. we will go live to egyn