egypt blows its top. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris mathews back in washington. leading off tonight the prosecution begins to rest its case in the george zimmerman case, but did it make the case for murder 2? did it beat the case for self-defense? did it? or did it simply show weaknesses in its witnesses and in its evidence. but we start tonight with the military coup. yes military coup in egypt. today, the army overthrew the elected government and took power itself. what's this game changing event

mean to democracy in the most country in arabia. what's it mean to peace in the situation in think of that part of the world. in afghanistan the taliban is dieing to get back into power. in iraq, the sunni minority stands ready to overthrow the government. we, the united states, put into power through the sweat, blood and deaths of our soldiers. in syria, bashar al assad fights off the rebels in what promises to be an unending war. what a neighborhood. in too many of the cases the united states has gotten itself involved in a local war between shia and sunni, a battle that's lasted a thousand years. just in my opinion, of course. it isn't going to end just because uncle sam has joined the rumble. nbc's chief foreign correspondent richard engel in tahrir square, joining us by phone from cairo is ashraf who has been on the ground and at today's muslim brotherhood.

richard engel, thank you. take all the time you want. tell us what's going on in cairo? >> well, i will start with what is happening right here in this square. enormous celebrations, a great outpouring of enthusiasm. obviously fireworks, obviously cheering. lots of music. people here believe that this is really the end or the latest phase of the revolution that began in this square two and a half years ago. if you go back and see what happened, two and a half years ago, students came out, they ousted president mubarak, and what happened? a transition nary government, a military led phase came in. that didn't go very well. they were in power for about another year, year and a half. then elections were held and the muslim brotherhood won the election which these people saw as a major disaster. now, they have called on the military once again to intervene, to remove the muslim

brotherhood and they are hopeful based on the last experience when there was a transition government, that they can manage this transition period better, put in a better government, so they won't have to come out into the streets again and demand political change. that's happening here. across town, however, a very different, a much darker scenario. the losers in this conflict, the muslim brotherhood and their supporters, are enormously angry. one of their main locations has been surrounded by the army. several of their television stations have already been raided. they are saying that they are already being persecuted and that does not bode well for the future here. there are concerns that the islamists being driven out of power now who think they're being chased down, could go underground, could become an insurgency. the concern is such that the u.s. embassy, which is really not very far from this square at all, has ordered the departure of all nonessential personnel and their families and is even

advising american citizens to leave this country. the question is, there are celebrations here, many angry people across town, the u.s. embassy is nervous. is this as good as it gets or tomorrow does this -- is the start of another phase of conflict where you have religious passions mixed in at a disenfranchised religious group that wants to take its vendetta on the people here and on the military? >> let me ask you, richard, the question most people looking at this incredible scene late tonight in cairo are asking, are those people satisfied with what happened today? are they united about what they want to come later? >> they do seem to be united. they're not all from one group, but they all seem to be supportive of the road map that was put forward by the military and also which was backed by the members of civil society, religious leaders from the

coptic christian pope, most senior christian official in this country, back this road map, morsi is out. we don't know where he is. the latest reports are that he is at a ministry of defense building. he hasn't made any statements since the announcement ousting him. there was one statement that was leaked out in which he said that the revolution has been stolen from him, continuing a defiant line. but they do seem, at least here, united that there will be morsi's out, a transition nary government. we're not sure how long it will last. the military and members of civil society will supervise that. the writing of a new constitution. and then new elections which people here hope will go a lot better than the last elections. but there is a larger question here and a larger scope of this and that is, is this the end of political islam. but i'll answer that -- i'll get to that in a second. >> we'll be right back with you

richard, on that great question. let me go to ashraf kalil covering for "time" magazine. give us a sense of that, ashraf. >> well, the mood at the pro-morsi rally, the muslim brotherhood rally, when i left there was about 4:00, 4:30, about an hour before the military really made its move and it was very defiant. they were trying to put on a brave face. i kept asking if people were worried, they're like no, we're not worried. at the same time, there was this sense of kind of helpless frustration and anger. i think they knew what was coming. i think this has been inevitable since the night before when morsi, when mohamed morsi, the former president, i suppose, gave a defiant speech, basically challenging the army to remove him. but people there were feeling very disillusioned. they feel like they've been ganged up on. they feel like they've been sold

a fraudulent bill of democratic goods. one man spoke to said look, i know he's unpopular, i know he's made mistakes but he' elected. if you want to remove him, you remove him by an election not by a protest. one man predicted they are not going to leave, that there's going to be blood on the streets and it's going to be on defense minister's hands, on his hands. that was the quote he gave me. >> i see. before we get to what might happen, what happened before? was the muslim brotherhood government of morsi, mohamed morsi, where was it taking the country? was it taking it gradually and smoothly, inevitably towards shariah, towards a real islamist state like you have in iran? >> really, the brotherhood didn't make all that many on the ground concrete moves that took the country towards shariah. there was elements in the constitution that were very disturbing that could have opened that door. but they didn't really do all

that much in that regard. their primary crime in the eyes of the protesters and really where they lost the country, was just in not being inclusive. they played exclusively to their base. they shoved this constitution down the throats of people and just said hey, we have the votes, this is it, you're just sore losers. they ignored the idea of consensus building. arguably, with president -- with morsi, mohamed morsi, through this fragile divisive nation that was still trying to figure out what kind of country it needed to be, his number one priority arguably should have been consensus building. instead of going to the center, they went to the right. they alliied and used those numbers to jam it down the country's throat and bred so much badwill and animosity. it's remarkable the number i've spoken with who voted for morsi a year ago or were at least happy when a civilian won over a

military guy. the number of people i spoke with a year ago when you talked to them, they were saying no, no, give them a chance. let's try to work with him. you talk to these people a year later, and they're like no, we have to go right now. i'm talking about opposition activists, politicians, the people that were willing to work with the brotherhood a year ago, they're the ones that are feeling so disillusioned now. that's why mohamed morsi is no longer president. >> richard, as a journalist, you've really grown up with egypt. i know you've told me the stories of how you lived there among the people and the neighborhoods an learned, improved your aurabic and got a sense. what would you call tonight's chapter in egyptian modern history? >> i think it is the end right now of the muslim brotherhood's flirtation with power. the muslim brotherhood, when i lived here i lived in a poor neighborhood, where the muslim brotherhood had a great deal of

sway. it had the power of the mosques. whenever there was corruption in society, the muslim brotherhood could say, we don't act that way, that's not who we are, that's not what we believe in, and generally they were popular in a lot of poor cairo slums. when they came to power, as ashraf was describing they were terrible at governing. they didn't reach out to other people. they were bullies. they were intellectual and religious bullies. they allowed many extremist clerics to open television stations, filling the society here with some very radical messages. the sanai, usually a place filled with tourists, usually from italy, wear skimpy bathing suits and drink beer on the beach, when the muslim brotherhood came to power it became a wasteland where people were being kidnapped, soldiers being kidnapped, repeated attacks against israel, repeated

attacks against pipelines. the israeli army built a fence to wall itself off from the sanai. so it was a pretty bad experience of the muslim brotherhood in power. now, i think the people have said we don't want the muslim brotherhood anymore. they're not rejecting islam and politics rit large. but people in this square are muslims, proud to be muslims, but they blame the muslim brotherhood for manipulating religion, using it like a panner on its chest, a superman "s" that gave them the power to do whatever they wanted. i think that backfired against them. the question now is will this set the tone for other of the new arab democracies if they say well, the islamists who took power weren't particularly successful, brought the country backwards, now is there going to be egypt setting the way for a different type of -- a new phase in the arab spring. >> when i think of egypt and we all do, we think of it as an

ancient culture, an ancient country, real country, not something divided up or created or coneffected by the europeans, by churchhill or after world war i. there's a real country of egypt that preceded islam. what is egypt today? is it egypt or just part of islam? >> well, if you ask the people here right now, they are reclaiming egypt and it is not just the egypt of a specific group. the group that saw history began with islam 1400 years ago. there were slogans in this square, uniting muslims and christians. there have been christians in this country going back to the earliest days of christianity. this is a -- obviously an aging culture but for a period, it was, as you said, ruled by one vision, ruled by one group that saw history beginning with islam and that was the correct way to

lead society and that yes, there could be tolerance toward other communities, but not genuine respect. >> i see. well, thank you so much, richard engel. the greatest reporter in the world, thank you for coming to us from cairo the night of this incredible event. thank you ashraf kalil, first time on this show and you've been great. thank you for your great reports on the muslim brotherhood and how they're taking this. love to have you back later. when we return we'll get reaction from the white house on what we've been watching here all day today. the president has spoken. we'll give you what he said. by the way, coming up later, the prosecution in the george zimmerman case seems to be trying to broaden the lengths of the case beyond just the night of trayvon martin's death. will that work? this is hardball, the place for politics. i'm the next american success story. working for a company where over seventy-five percent of store management started as hourly associates. there's opportunity here. i can use walmart's education benefits to get a degree, maybe work in it, or be an engineer, helping walmart conserve energy. even

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welcome back to "hardball." you're looking right now at the incredible scene as you saw before in egypt's tahrir square as crowds celebrate the military overthrow of president mohamed morsi, who they elected a year and a half ago. administration officials now here in the u.s. have been monitoring the situation throughout the day, of course. the pentagon reports the defense secretary chuck hagel has been in contact with egypt's defense minister throughout the week and that 500 marines are currently on standby in case they're needed to protect u.s. interests, especially the embassy, which isn't far from what we're looking at right now. president obama convened a meeting late in the day with secretary hagel as well as cia director brennan and the joint chiefs. the joint chiefs of staff, the head of the joint chiefs martin dempsey. minutes ago, the president

released a statement on the removal of morsi from power. and for more on what's going on at the white house, we go to nbc white house correspondent peter alexander also to joe ruben. a former state department egypt desk officer. i've got to get to peter on this. thank you for joining us. what is the nut? what is the heart of the president's statement? >> well, let's read some of it to you right now. we got this within the last 30 minutes or so, chris. we're going to put it up on the screen right now and your viewers can read along with me. this is the statement from the president that reads the united states is monitoring the very fluid situation in egypt and we believe that ultimately the future of egypt can only be determined by the egyptian people. nevertheless, and listen to this, he says we are deeply concerned by the decision of the egyptian armed forces to remove president morsi and suspend the egyptian constitution. i now call on the egyptian military to move quickly and responsibly to return full authority back to a democratically elected civilian government as soon as possible through an inclusive and transparent process and to avoid any arbitrary arrests of president morsi and his supporters.

there were some other parts of this what i think is a four paragraph statement from the president. we waited hours thinking we perhaps might hear from him. ultimately came in the form of a paper statement. but the president, chris, has also directed the relevant agencies and departments within his government to review the u.s. aid to egypt right now because there are significant implications. he wants them to review the implications of that because the u.s. law says that the u.s. cannot continue with that aid in the event of a coup. so it couldn't be paid unless this is a temporary transition. presently taking place right now. the american government gives to egypt roughly $1.5 billion, a large portion of which is military aid. some of it humanitarian aid as well. and there's been a perception among the protesters there in egypt that in some ways the u.s. overlooked the crackdown by morsi's government. as long as he agreed, the morsi regime agreed to maintain the

peace treaty with israel. one of the significant issues at play in this conversation. you talked about the meeting that took place here. the president presided, he chaired a meeting of his top national security advisers that took place here late this afternoon. we'll show you a picture of that that the white house has just released within the last five minutes. you can see the president is there. he was joined by his new national security adviser susan rice there to his left. she, of course, just took over this post three days ago replacing tom donalin. others in the room included as you know chuck hagel, john brennan was there, eric holder. we're told the secretary of state john kerry participated in this call. he is out of town but did it by conference. chris? >> couple of points here. first of all, you read -- of course i agree with you, that's the nut of the statement by the president. but he didn't say -- he said how concerned we are as a country. at the fact of this military coup overthrowing the elected president mohammed morsi. but he doesn't call for the

reinstallation, restoration of morsi's regime. he says, basically, called to election, in a way, aren't we saying thanks for doing that, we can't agree with the way you did it but we like the results and all we want is a new election? >> well, perhaps, i think that's a pretty decent way to put it, one of the other points we're browsing through this e-mail we got from the white house a short time ago. he said when the democratic political order that now takes over is put into place, it should include participation from all sides, all political parties, secular and religious, that's referring to the muslim brotherhood among others in the situation, civilian and military, the white house in many ways as we've been noting is now hoping that in egypt they can calm the situation, send the millions of people home and find some new democratic order to take over in the morsi government's place. >> it sounds like we're taking sides with the people we're looking at right now. the people calling for an inclusive government that isn't just an elected government but remains responsive and

represented throughout the country after election. it's not just one side wins and that's the end of democracy. >> yeah, no, i mean, i think that's a pretty decent way to analyze this right now. as we look, i'm reviewing some of the notes. again right now, the white house also says no transition to democracy comes without difficulty. but in the end, it must stay true to the will of the people. so ultimately, that's what you're looking at. the president in his conference and phone call the last time he spoke that we know of to president morsi was monday called on him to allow the democratic process to take place saying america's commitment was to that democratic process before any party or any -- or any individual. in this case, it seems that our commitment is to the vast number of individuals, this mass of people who believe this is what should take place. >> what an interesting alliance we have to the egyptian people as opposed to the government. let's go to joe ruben who worked at the egypt desk. when peter talked about the fact this new statement from the

president suggests we might be threatening with pulling out the money we give to the military there. well, there's an obvious catch 22 there. if we yank the money we gave them starting with the camp david accords in '78 when they made their peace treaty with israel, what have they got to lose there? >> there really is a catch-22. and that statement was very much dancing along that line. congress has put pressure on the administration to put conditions on the aid to hold some of it back. for a variety of reasons and what the administration is trying to say is they really want the process to go back to where it was process wise, but again, let the results be determined by the egyptian people. our relationship with the egyptian military has been ongoing for decades. it's strong it's essential. it matters to regional security to stability with israel. and we don't want to see that disappear. >> let me ask you, joe, for a real expert question. i want an expert's answer.

knowing as you do egypt, being on the desk there, how is your confidence level they could have a workable, say like an indian style democracy, a large country where they do know what democracy is and they can adapt to it and live with it after all these years of being ruled by the military? >> well, we're witnessing, really 30 plus months no one ever predicted. egypt was not seen as revolutionary state by the time i left the desk about five, six years ago and over the last several decades. and what the egyptian people have done is demonstrated over the last 2 1/2 years they have a real interest in their future. their eyes have been opened up. this -- this latest episode was initiated and instigated by a petition drive that got 22 million signatures from egyptians. that's a quarter of the population calling for morsi to step down. i think that we have to have confidence in the egyptian people. and as this administration

statement said, we also have to make sure we're pushing them in the direction that people are calling for. but, yes, we do also need to make sure that the violence doesn't break out and that they really are respecting the broader pluralistic goals of what the revolution called for 2 1/2 years ago. >> thanks so much. joel ruben who worked at the state department's egypt desk. let me go back for one last time with peter alexander, the fact that the president put this out as a paper statement rather than going on television, what does that tell you? >> i think that's interesting. we've noticed that's sort of been the modus operandi. for this white house recently. when the obama care event, vastly different topic but certainly of significance, the white house put that out through treasury department blog on what seems like a critical event taking place now on the other end of the world not too far away from where the president was traveling again. we hear this in the form of a paper statement. >> it is strange. anyway, thank you, peter alexander, for the great report this evening. as i said, joel ruben who had the experience at working at the

egyptian desk itself. we'll have more from egypt later in tonight's program. but up next, the latest on the hot trial for george zimmerman's life, pretty much, he's going to go to prison for a long time. this is "hardball," the place for politics. ♪ that's me... i made you something. ♪ i made you something, too. ♪ see you next summer. ♪ [ male announcer ] get exceptional values on the highest quality cars at the summer of audi sales event. ♪

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but the focus this morning was on zimmerman's background and specifically a college criminal justice course he took. prosecutors hoped to show that zimmerman was more familiar with florida's self-defense laws than he intimated in an interview with fox news last year. seems to be part of the strategy to broaden the lens of the case beyond just the night of trayvon martin's death. will it work? craig melvin is in sanford, florida, today. thank you, craig, as always. why don't we let you give your sense of your reporting on what happened today in this perhaps last day of prosecution testimony. >> yeah, you know what, chris, we thought, at least for a while it was going to be the last day. judge nelson indicated earlier that the state had told her that they wanted to rest its case today. that did not happen. judge nelson adjourned to the jury for the fourth of july holiday but told them to be back earlier than usual on friday. coming back friday morning at 8:30. it's expected, expected being the operative word here that the

state at some point friday morning or perhaps friday afternoon will call one or perhaps both of trayvon martin's parents. but we do expect to hear from sybrina fulton on friday. it's widely believed she's going to be the last -- the last witness for the state. at that point, the prosecution will start to present its case. as you indicated, much of the day spent on dna evidence, anthony gorgone, dna expert for the state, major highlights from his testimony. for the most part, none of trayvon martin's dna found on the gun grip, none of george zimmerman's dna found under trayvon martin's finger nails. on cross-examination, the defense did spend time raising some questions about the number of varied ways that dna samples could be degraded. also, again, as you indicated, the day started with a win for the state. the state had been arguing to get this evidence -- to get this

evidence in, that george zimmerman did know a little bit more than he let on about the law. also that he wanted to be a cop. we heard from someone from the prince william county sheriff's department in virginia who said that, you know, zimmerman applied several years ago to be a cop. that application was rejected because zimmerman had basically a poor credit history. we also heard from captain alexis carter who taught a criminal litigation course to zimmerman. said that zimmerman was an "a" student in that course and also said in the course they covered stand your ground, you'll remember, of course, the fox interview that was played for the jury yesterday. zimmerman said point-blank he had no knowledge of this so-called stand your ground law. but today, again, his professor saying that was essentially not the case. also allowed into evidence an application to ride along with the sanford county police. again, the state trying to demonstrate that george zimmerman wanted to be a cop,

was, perhaps, a vigilante, as well. so, again, that was the evidence that was introduced this morning. there was also some firearms evidence. amy siewe rshrrt, what she discovered, the .9 millimeter was fired at essentially point-blank range, it was touching trayvon martin's sweatshirt when it was fired, chris. >> thank you so much for that, craig melvin. let me get to lisa bloom and joseph haines davis joining us, as well. i want to start wits lisa bloom, let me talk to you about or ask you about this whole thing about the sweatshirt with the hood on it and whether the gun was in contact with just the sweatshirt, which apparently they stipulate it was, it was up against the sweatshirt, but it wasn't necessarily proven so far to be up against the body of trayvon martin who died. and my question is, why is -- if it's on the sweatshirt, would they think he's carrying the

sweatshirt with him? how would it be hitting the sweatshirt and not the body in any reasonable scenario? i don't understand this discussion. >> great question. here's what the defense says. the defense says that trayvon martin was straddled over the body of george zimmerman and his body was diagonal over him, and because of gravity, the sweatshirt separated from the body of trayvon martin and that's why it went through the sweatshirt which it was touching directly but now the body. and they show the physics of that essentially establishes that zimmerman's story that he was on the bottom, trayvon martin was on top. that is what the defense argues. >> but this was prosecution witness. a prosecution witness. and it seems so many times in the last several days that would look to be a prosecution spectacle and an effective one turned out to be coming the other way. you weren't even sure who the witness was. whose witness it was. >> well, that has happened a number of times and it's going to take the medical examiner to come in and testify about the autopsy on trayvon martin's body. and we'll hear more about the flesh wound that bullet caused. >> let me go to joseph.

thank you for joining us here. it seems to me the prosecution case is wide. it's a very wide lens. they're not trying to fight -- at least they're focused on the moments between these two men encountered each other the terrible night, in between the moments, or seconds that relapsed between the meeting and a horrible way and the death of one of them, trayvon martin. they want to pull back the lens to look at a mindset question, a question of verasitude, let's talk about his wanting to be a policeman, his possible vigilanteism that night. his possible profile. that word has gotten into evidence. tell me about why they pulled back the wider lens? >> well, they have to, chris, to a large degree, and thank you for having me. because the fact of the matter is, the prosecution has had some tough days with their own witnesses. i've been suggesting, you know, in theory, that the prosecution in their summation and their

closing might want to ask the jury given the fact that george zimmerman was a concealed weapons holder legally and had the gun legally as to whether or not he acted as a reasonably prudent concealed weapons holder with a florida concealed weapons license on the night of february 26th, 2012. and that includes not leaving out of his safe zone, which was in his car. i mean, there are a tremendous number of concealed weapons holders in this state, chris, i being one of them, that knows that when you are out and about and you see something, quote unquote suspicious, you make the call to the nonemergency number, you give the information, you step away, you walk away, you might walk back to your home so that you are not looking like you are pursuing or aggravating the circumstances. you are not deputized to begin to start to search. if when you are retreating, for lack of better terms back to your house or whatever, if

you're out of the car, walking the dog or something and that threat comes toward you, then it's another issue. but in this instance, if mr. zimmerman does not get out of the car, we are not having your show tonight. >> let's hold on to that, hold that thought. the audience too, we'll be right back with lisa bloom. and joseph haynes davis. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. vo: traveling you definitely end up meeting a lot more people but a friend under water is something completely different. i met a turtle friend today. avo: whatever you're looking for, expedia has more ways to help you find yours. are you kidding me? no, it's only 15 calories. [ male announcer ] with reddi wip, fruit never sounded more delicious. mmm. [ male announcer ] with 15 calories per serving and real cream, the sound of reddi wip is the sound of joy.

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welcome back to "hardball." we continue to watch the celebrations in cairo. look at them right now live

after the military ousted egypt's elected government over there. and we'll have more on that in a minute. but first, the latest in the george zimmerman case with msnbc lisa bloom and right now joseph haines davis, a criminal defense attorney in florida. mr. davis, i've got to get to you because i know you have to leave. let me give you something you haven't been asked. this is what i love to do on this show. >> yes, sir. >> suppose everybody, and by the way, i'm surrounded by people who think he's guilty. all my family, my liberal sons, my liberal wife, everybody thinks the guy -- zimmerman's the bad guy. i live in that world. i have other people with differing views too. >> i understand. >> my question to you, it's a really scary one. okay. imagine somebody was ten feet away from this horror that happened that night in the san -- sanford and took a crystal clear picture of everything that happened, happened. everything that happened from the time these two guys met, however he came out of the bushes, walked toward him, didn't walk toward him, everything including what looked to be a fight that ended in a wrestling match with a gun going off. i still think people will have different verdicts and the reason i say that, i'm asking

you, i should say. >> yes. >> because people talk about the surrounding context. they talk about the fact he shouldn't have gotten out of his car before the encounter occurred. he shouldn't have had this police mentality going on. he isn't a cop, why was he thinking like one. all that and say that's what matters, not what happened in the scuffle. then other people would say no, it's the scuffle that matters, what actually happened. my question to you, is that a problem we have here? even the facts aren't going to clear this case? >> it might be. but chris, it's my understanding that some of the jurors up to four of them are familiar with, quote/unquote guns, it has been reported. and as a result, i believe that the fact that he left the car in light of something suspicious for me is telling. now, again, ethically because i'm a member of the bar and it's a case in front of a court that i practice in front of periodically, i'm not going to sit here and make a prediction or do anything unethical on the

"chris mathews show." i can say as a concealed weapons holder, when you see trouble, you report it. and you walk away. and you stay within your safe zones. that's how we are trained. that's how we think. >> is the penalty for that murder two? >> it quite possibly can be depending on a sequestered jury panel. >> okay. thank you for joining us. we'll get back to you next time we get hold of you. we want you back. he practices down there. let me go to lisa bloom. i remember you saying the other night, i'm always looking for controversy here. i heard you the other night say the only thing that matters in this case is not the box it came in, not all the racial history, the 450 years of bad history and all kinds of questions about police and our system and not the question whether this guy thought he was a cop or possible vigilanteism. the only thing that mattered was, what happened when these two guys met and who ended up feeling they were in danger of losing their life or facing grievous bodily injury and drew the gun and used it? do you stick to that? >> well, i think what i said was, that the legal question, is

that the moment george zimmerman pulled the trigger and took the life of this teenager was he in fear of great bodily injury or death. that's the legal standard. that's a difficult question to answer because you have to take into account the entire context. >> why do you have to take it into context -- you're saying it differently this time. >> i don't think i'm saying it differently, chris. >> if you said the question is his mindset, was he in danger of great bodily injury or death, if he thought that at the time. >> reasonably feared. >> if he's right in his testimony, his head was being pounded into the sidewalk. that's his time, is it true or isn't it true, we don't know, if it's true, was he within his rights to make that judgment? >> okay, but the prosecution is says his injuries weren't that bad. maybe his head was pounded once. maybe he got punched once. maybe he was scratched up a little bit. >> how many times would you let your head be pounded if it's true.

>> you can't take out a gun and shoot and kill someone. ? if it's true, how many times would you let your head be pounded into the cement if it happened that way? two, three? >> but look, i wouldn't summa -- assume an african-american kid walking around in my neighborhood was up to no good, follow him against the advice of police. >> sure. those are all part of the story. but you're the lawyer. what is the criminal charge here, murder two. what has that got to do with his mindset ten minutes before? >> it is murder two. >> what does the mindset have to do with it ten minutes before have do with it. >> it has a lot to do with it because a finding of murder two is a finding he intentionally took this life with a depraved mind. can i tell you about this piece of evidence that i think is important that nobody's talking about. george zimmerman had a bluff from the lead investigator who said we have a videotape of this incident. turns out there is no videotape of the incident but zimmerman responded with elation, he was hopeful, he was like i'm so glad, i hope there is a videotape. >> which tells you? >> he pointed out video cameras

in the community which hoped would lead to a videotape. >> what's it tell you? >> that he thinks his story is true. whether it's true or not, when he says trayvon martin was on top attacking him and assaulting him, he was very -- either he was very hopeful there was a tape or he's an extremely good actor. >> and if the videotape did tell the story he told, would he be innocent? >> if he was getting his head pounded, and he was getting punched in the face and as he says trayvon martin threatened to kill him and reached for the gun, clearly that would be a self-defense acquittal verdict. >> lisa bloom, thank you for joining us again. we'll have you back as often as we can get you. thanks for joining us. lisa bloom. when we return, millions of egyptians are celebrating at this minute. near midnight over there. the ouster of the country's islamist president, the one they elected. what does the military coup mean for our own country? that's always my question. u.s. interests here. united states. how are we doing in this thing? looks like we have nothing to do with it. this is "hardball," the place for politics. we're at the legendary

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>> the state department is warning u.s. citizens now living in egypt right in that country to leave the country at this time. immediately in other words, because of the continuing political and clearly social unrest after today's military coup. the state department is also warning u.s. citizens to put off travel to egypt at this time. there goes the tourist business. we'll get back to the incredible demonstrations in cairo in a moment. "hardball" back in a moment. i woke up to a blistering on my shoulder.

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celebrations continue in tahrir square, the scene of a drats mick series of political and military events in egypt. president mohammed morsi has been ousted by the state's military. the constitution has been dissolved. rejoining us by phone from cairo is "time" magazine's correspondent ashraf kalil, on the ground both at the square and at today's muslim brotherhood rally. former state department egypt desk officer joel ruben. joel, i'll get to you in a minute. i want to get to mr. khalil over there.

it looks to me like the united states might be a little better off in the short run, because we now have a government run by the military which seems to be a stabilizing force against a government that looked like it was moving more and more islamists, and, therefore, at some point anti-american. how do you read it. >> it's hard to read where u.s. interests lie. on this current situation. you do certainly have the end of the muslim brotherhood leadership. although the muslim brotherhood leadership was never really overtly anti-american. you have the military now in charge, has strong ties to the americans, but the muslim brotherhood played nice with washington, they said all the right things with israels. they didn't cause waves. they weren't anti-american or anti-american interests. the incoming government, whatever form it takes will be probably be less threatening to american citizens and that's a good thing. but there is also a precedent with an elected president being

ousted for bad politics essentially after one year. that might cause a problem with the u.s. in terms of stability because if whoever is the next president has a bad first year, you can bet the muslim brotherhood will be out there screaming for his head and causing instability. it's hard to tell. it's a mixed bag from the u.s. perspective. >> let me go to joel rubin. after years of listening to the bbc on radio when i was in the peace corps. i always said, conditions are stable. in the levant or somewhere. generally old powers like us, and we're an old power now, like stability. what are the chances we're going to get stability in that country where tourism will come back, the economy will pick up and there will be less chance of the country being radicalized after this? >> well, chris, stability is what egyptian people are calling for. i think as ashraf points out, the last two years have been very destabilizing for egyptian politics and egyptian people.

they did come out of three decades of, quote, stability which clearly was a facade. so they're going to need to be inclusive. this process has to be different from the last one, where the government was led by the military. then the muslim brotherhood took over and ran roughshod over the rest of the players in cairo. it needs to be more inclusive, and we saw today in the press conference when the announcement was made of this takeover, the broad swath of egyptians, the society represented. nonetheless, the brotherhood, they've been in this battle and this type of battle before, decades of it against mubarak and the military. they do have a vote and voice. it's essential that in the days ahead, those in the brotherhood who are not necessarily behind morsi, but can be engaged are engaged. and that they're not made to be outside of this upcoming political process. >> mr. kalil, the good thing

about military coups, they settle things down in the short run. the bad thing about them, they know nothing about politics or democracy. can this military government that's taken over today find a way to infuse itself with the democratic voices of the various elements of the egyptian sewed? -- society? >> if they're going to do that, they're going to have to learn the lessons from the last time they ran the country which was just a year ago. there's definitely -- keep in mind, the 15 months after hosni mubarak was pushed from the stage by the original revolution, we were here under the supreme council of the armed forces, and it was kind of a disaster for all parties. they were unpopular. they were repressive. they were thin skinned. they seemed to hate being hated like that. they weren't used to being in the position where people were chanting against them. they really, really didn't like it. so that's why there's a strong possibility they'll try to do it differently this time.

in the announcement by the defense minister it was a very different tone that when the military was running the country after mubarak, it wasn't just some press conference with a general sort of waving the finger at the camera which happened a lot in that first year after mubarak. this was very inclusive. you had the coptic pope, you had the head of al -- they tried to present a broad inclusive picture. so the hope is that they've learned their lesson from their last very recent and very disastrous attempt to run the country. >> >> great thinking and great reporting. from "time" magazine. joel rubin, i think it's fascinating. we have a military in this part, that wants to be popular, knows the mistakes of the past, this hey be a good sign for a future stability in egypt tonight. we'll be right back after this. , my clothes will be fresh out of the drawer for weeks. and it's great when things last a long time. well...most things. [ male announcer ] how do you get your bounce? [ woman ] can't regret fresh.

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let me finish tonight with this, the u.s. policy in the arab world tonight is up in the air. we used to be able to count on our allies in the region. egypt, jordan and moderate palestinians. we used to count on a group of countries that were mischevious and rejectionist. but were no strategic threat to our ally israel, those being iraq and syria. today we face question marks in all those countries, if not now, at some point in the very near future. the challenge from iran remains, of course, as it has for a while, ever since the overthrow of the shaw, the question now for us and it is a huge one, how to settle down a region that seems increasingly prone to

blowing its top. president obama, secretary of state kerry, and the rest of the american team i assume are giving this one all they've got. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. have a safe and happy fourth of july. coming up next, "msnbc live." happy birthday, america. it's the fourth of july, 7:00 a.m. on the east coast, 4:00 a.m. out west. i'm alex witt. thanks for joining us. a very busy morning already. egyptians welcoming their interim leader after the military ousted president mohamed morsi. is this the next phase of the arab spring? a major delay in implementing the president's health care law and a push for immigration reform faces an uncertain future in the house. what happens now? and before tonight's fireworks another fourth of july tradition the nathan's hot dog eating contest. live this hour, one of this year's mustard belt contenders. but first, repeating the revolution for the second time in just over two years, egyptians have od