intermediate distance. and i think it was explainable. it was a contact shot. >> dr. kobilinsky, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> thank you. >> "morning joe" is up next. welcome to "morning joe." hope everybody had a great fourth of july holiday. and the question we're posing this morning, perfect timing actually, what if we had the ability to pull together the best traits of certain presidents to buy yonically manufacture the ideal president. >> buy yonically. >> we can make them better, rebuild them. >> take all of the good parts of all of them. we've assembled another all-star panel of presidential historians to help us build the perfect president. joining us rice university professor and author of "the reagan diaries" and gerald r.

ford, douglas brinkley. >> nancy gibbs. >> executive editor of "time" michael duffy, co-authors of "the president's club." also in new york, nbc puttal historian and author of nine books on the american presidency, michael berblamb. good to have you on board. >> thank you. >> let's start by talking before we build the perfect president, let's talk about the president we have. douglas brinkley, a lot of democrats now, past couple weeks, started talking publicly about how this president is not using the bully pulpit, not rising to the occasion. how is this president doing on foreign policy? >> it's tough on foreign policy. it's still mid-stream. people are right to complain about syria but he doesn't want to get us brought into another war in the middle east. i think his foreign policy is like eisenhower. he came in and ike got us out

tfts korean war. i think he want his presidency to be i got us out of iraq, afghanistan, guantanamo and did not get us into a war in the middle east. he wants to be seen as a peace and hopefully prosperity president. >> you said the magic word, ike. a bell should ring, duck should come down and i should play grow cho mark. the more i look at ike the more i like ike. it is unbelievable. i grew up in a household of fdr democrats and i learned growing up that fdr was adult, he played golf all day, and ceos from wall street ran him. completely wrong on all fronts, right? >> yeah. we've learned a lot about him since. if we were building our president, starting with a war hero, it would be a big help. one of the advantages eisenhower had that he used was he had more stars than any of the generals he was dealing with and had much more confidence, much more power

in the sense, you know, when he back channeled to the koreans, that he might consider using nuclear weapons to end that war, they believed him. and that he brought in to office. it wasn't something that any other president would necessarily be able to draw. >> and had such a skepticism, healthy skepticism of the generals and admirals that wanted to go to war. >> no one knows more about the military than someone who spent his life in it and rising to the top of it. he knew how to call them out. he was very proud of keeping the country out of major conflicts during that time. you know, maybe at the end of the obama presidency, it will be ending those two wars that is the sort of peg he hangs his hat on in foreign policy. for eisenhower not getting it in in the first place. >> ike built the interstate highway system and saint lawrence sea way. we could use jobs for public works projects like that. that hasn't come out of the obama administration yet. >> let's stick with foreign

policy and pull out the essence of some of the best presidents on this issue as we try to put together one concept. we have reagan, kennedy, wilson, and nixon that we're looking at? >> you would probably want that piece of the war hero, be probably want a little bit of kennedy's ability to talk about foreign policy in public. you know, what he did in berlin was really to take control of the cold war debate. i think you would want a dash of nixon. a dash of, you know, slightly cunning grand strategy just to keep things interesting. >> look at the foreign policy situations that we're dealing with right now and this president and perhaps at least on the outside, we might want to see negotiating skills that are more reagan-esque, fair enough? >> i think that's fair enough. putin may not be a gorbachev. in other words, somebody you have to have a partner to deal with. i certainly have more faith in gorbachev than i do putin.

with that said, the president's got i think to make a break-through with china, do like nixon had his big breakthrough, we need to see barack obama gogo to china, having the meeting in sunnilands in the california does doesers. it could be a feather in obama's cap. he's already going to be like eisenhower, going to have to downsize our military some, perhaps shrink -- we might have to pull our bases out of germany, for example. air bases at some point to save money. he needs to do some big things. >> let me throw this out on the table. we talked about reagan, a guy known as a warmonger. >> in some quarters. >> his critics called him a warmonger. gerald ford i remember in 1976 had a commercial that said, i'm dating myself, governor reagan won't get us into war. president reagan could. >> yeah. >> and then you have ike, who

everybody thought was going to be this strapping general who's threatening nuclear hollow cast and those two presidents, those 60 years were probably free of more military incidents than any other 16 years in the 20th century. >> when eisenhower was campaigning for republicans in the 1962 mid terms after he was out of office he went around saying look, when i was president there were no walls built. the berlin wall had gone up. no threatening foreign bases established. he was very proud of the fact and he said this was not an accident, that during his presidency, we didn't lose an inch of territory, we ceded no land to tyranny and that was something he was very -- >> and after no wars. >> no wars. >> reagan taught us he was a brilliant -- how important negotiating skills are. he bet a trillion dollars to put the soviets out of business. i'll bet a trillion. it worked. what impressed the soviets the most, what scared them as much as the money and weapons, was

the fact that he looked the air traffic controllers in the eye in the first 60 days of his presidency and said you're fired. those signals which were domestic in nature had -- you could say look knowing what we know 30 years later, big impact on the soviets and how they regarded him and his skills as a negotiator. >> so michael, that was what, was that '81, '82? >> '81. august of '81. >> five years later, gorbachev knew when he stared him down, he knew this wasn't a guy that was going to back down. >> yeah. he knew that. and also reagan had been through all those years of the screen actors guild where he knew how to negotiate. here's a president that told us what he was going to do. in the 1980 campaign he said i want to challenge the soviets around the world to try to end the cold war in this generation, increase defense spending, and then if they come up with a leader who will deal with us, i will sit down and won't do my bad reagan impersonation, sit

down for as long as it takes to try to reach a deal and turned out that's exactly what he did. doesn't always happen in the presidency. >> one of the most momentous presidents of the 20th century a guy that left office -- on foreign policy -- with 21, 22% approval rating but let's talk for a second about harry truman, my parents also, i guess i should say, my mom and her family, they weren't democrats, they were fdr democrats. they had contempt for harry truman, from the rural south, but thought he was a bumkin, fdr was a king, he had saved them. that was the attitude. douglas, you talk about truman, here's a guy, every historic challenge, whether you want to talk about him staring down the soviets, whether you want to talk about his decision on containment, whether you want to talk about the marshall plan, the truman doctrine, everything he did, especially in '47 and '48, nothing short of

extraordinary for a guy from missouri. >> used to say to err is truman. >> my mom still says that. >> look not only that, he created our whole national security council structure here. he created the nsc, the cia, the joint chiefs of staff, the pentagon. >> nato. >> nato. >> the secretary of defense. i mean we can make a list of what truman did to touch on -- backing the creation of israel, the berlin blockade, and -- but the korean war is a mixed bag for him. i think that's why he left in foreign affairs, his reputation in tatters and unable to run in '52 and stevenson had to do it. >> nancy, that korean war ended and certainly it was a tragedy, but truman created the post-war era. >> sure did. >> he did. although one thing i love is the fact that he had some surprising help in the recovery of europe. imagine selling america after the war on the idea of spending money to rebuild europe and putting the troops that are

protected. he sold that with the help of all people, herbert hoover on the recovery and dwight eisenhower on nato, that if he's the guy in charge people trusted, that would work. an idea of collective security that was not something that americans were very keen on after five years of war. >> and michael, you talk about a guy that got it from both sides. harry truman was loathed by progressives from being so tough on stalin and the soviets that he was provoking a cold war. republicans loathed him as well. he had nowhere to go and yet he was making the right calls. >> no, that's exactly right. you made this crucial point about truman that 22% figure when he left office people thought he was a bumkin. that shows you how different when historians look back. in 1952 true map was asked what he thought of nixon and he said i think richard nixon is full of manure. that was published. truman's aides went to mrs.

truman. that's what she was dealing with. but 60 years later doesn't seem too important, does fit. >> it doesn't. >> all right. one of my favorite stories was the famous story of him reading the review of his daughter's wonderful letter -- >> piano play -- >> singing. >> singing. and he actually just impe tu wasly wrote a note back blasting the critic. >> when we return the communicator in chief. which president was best at tapping into the country's consciousness with the power of their words? more with our all-star presidential panel in just a moment. "i'm part of an american success story," "that starts with one of the world's most advanced distribution systems," "and one of the most efficient trucking networks," "with safe, experienced drivers." "we work directly with manufacturers," "eliminating costly markups," "and buy directly from local

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first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear it itself. nameless, unreasoning,

unjustified terror, which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat and to advance. >> but the greatest danger of all would be to do nothing. the path we have chosen for the present is full of hazards, as all paths are. but it is the one most consistent with our character and courage as a nation and our commitments around the world. the course to freedom is always hard, but americans have always paid it. and one path we shall never choose and is that the path of surrender or submission. >> general secretary gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the soviet union and eastern europe, if you seek liberalization, come here to this gate, mr. gorbachev, open this gate.

[ applause ] mr. gorbachev, mr. gorbachev, tear down this wall. >> wow. >> i still get chills. >> i got -- >> i just got them. we're continuing our discussion on the makings of a perfect president with douglas brinkley, nancy gibbs, michael duffy. what a panel. the next traits reacting to a crisis and communicating with the country. nancy, let me throw this at you. when you look at president obama on his first campaign and some of those incredible speeches, how does he fair in communicating with the country and really getting into the pulse of the moment? >> you know, he perfectly

embodies the problem of the balance between oratory and intimacy. the yor raer to can be very powerful as we've seen but the secret ingredient is that sense of intimacy, that i understand your life, your needs, your fears. bill clinton could be mocked as the i feel your pain president, and you love the story about fdr and the way people felt like he knew them. i think the oratory in a vacuum will never be sufficient if there isn't also that sense of -- >> but that reagan moment was powerful. it wasn't intimate. >> but reagan could also, michael, he could be intimate. you got the sense -- it was a great irony, a guy whose own children and at times wife and staff members, didn't get him. >> right. >> was a guy who after "challenger" accident make us feel like he was talking to us, and to quote bill clinton, that feel our pain. >> that's exactly right.

he had the three decades of acting experience in motion pictures and radio and television. it helped. reagan said when he was leading office, i don't know how you could be president without having that kind of acting experience. once fdr melt orson welles and roosevelt didn't reveal himself so blatantly but he said you and i are the greatest actors in the united states. >> i think this is the x factor in our president. this is the one thing that probably matters most of all, the ability to take the country by the hand, to do what we call leadership. in public and in private. but mostly in public, when we know we have to look, turn on the tv, and watch what the leader has to say. don't forget this is just a guy like the rest of us, so far only, and we lift him into this impossible job and ask these impossible things and they have to at this often horrible moments do something extraordinary. and we know as voters and

citizens when they've got it and when they just don't hit us. when we think about these presidents in retrospect that's the thing we think about. can they do it, rise to those moments. some were good and some not. >> douglas brinkley, barack obama, for democrats, i didn't vote for him twice, so if i say he's the most frustrating president, i'm not talking in real time. i'm one of these people the second they leave office, there's just -- immediately -- >> poll numbers go up -- >> immediately this sheet around them and they become a part -- >> they're history. >> but in barack obama's case, i would think for historians he would be the most frustrating of presidents in this area because he was -- i remember tearing up when i saw him speak in iowa after winning the caucus, knowing i would never vote for him. i remember him talking in berlin. i remember him on the campaign trail saying, i remember -- i was sitting next to mike murphy

and after the convention speech in denver we had chills and he turned to me, neither one of us were going to vote for him, he said, houston, we have a problem. yet as president, he is as drab and uninspiring at times and small oratorically at times as any president in my lifetime. why? >> i don't think the second inaugural was drab and boring, particularly if you were a gay american and he was able to put stonewall in there and bring it into the main narrative. i don't think if you're an african-american you find him uninspiri uninspiring. his numbers in that community are about 90%. >> we're talking about oratory here though. >> but that second inaugural may be seen as a big one. his speeches on climate change depending on how climate is looked at, he's being kind of an educator. >> you think -- i don't mean to cut you off but i'm dg to cut you off, you think barack obama is as inspiring as a president -- in this one area, oratory, as he is on the

campaign trail. >> no. he's a better campaigner. but some day when you have the collected speeches of barack obama you're going to look at the power of his nobel speech or cairo speech and may look better in this regard. i still think he's a better speech giver than most presidents. better than nixon or linden johnson or jimmy carter. >> that's not a high standard. >> michael, i was going to say -- a low bar. >> stop. >> [ inaudible ]. >> i think he's in a middle range of using oratory and at times can deliver a lhell of a speech. >> he can. for a guy so inspiring, seems to be other times where he seems to fall flat. i will be quiet now as the republican and let you talk about it. i think there's the disconnect between obama the campaigner and obama the president. >> you may have just -- >> i think the 2004 convention speech gave people the impression that he was this

overwhelming, dramatic public personality and he really never was. he was very comfortable as an adjunct professor at the university of chicago when in the state senate in illinois. in '08 as i think perhaps you remember, his aides had to practically wrestle him to the ground to use this phrase yes, we can, because he thought it was demagogic. that's him. but i think he may be really interesting to write about decades from now. >> i agree. >> because there is so little of obama on the surface that there must be an awful lot there in that life we don't see now, we may a couple decades from now. >> i felt in the first term that their go-to play, standard move on any situation, was break and give speech. that's their off tackle play, what they relied on. >> usually a prewritten speech. >> it was. but the country needs more than just words. >> yeah. >> and there's these moments where oratory is required and leadership public diplomacy and leadership is required. there is governing and getting,

you know, the job done and being part of it and owning it and on that score he simply has given a lot of speeches and the country may have decided -- >> he's always -- you gave the "challenger" as example. do you have any criticism of obama tucson and newtown? i can list a list. all these national tragedies he's remarkable on his oratory and kind of pulls the country together, but it only lasts about 48 hours. >> but the times around it have changed. >> i guess, i heard this from a foreign leader in 2009, and you all heard the same criticism with barack obama, he seems to think not my criticism but the criticism a lot say of him, he seems to think and his staff seems to think, nancy, that the speech is the ends instead of the speech being the means. i don't know. you talk about newtown. i was with him, obviously background checks, a lot of these other issues. but i don't know that there's a follow-up to the great speech. >> i think when you're in office

and this is the difference between the campaigner and the president, or the president and the professor, your words have consequences and so we have seen this with syria, where he can make the statement assad must go and, you know, have that be the bold statement of purpose, but that has now limited his options, put him in a box, you know, made his negotiation of that situation much more difficult and so i think they are much more weary about whether or not as you say, is it a means or end. in many of these cases when you say something powerful as president, it limits your options and puts you on the record in a way that is going to affect how events play out for the rest of your time in office. >> so douglas, i want to clean this up. i just -- before we go. douglas, you think he's a great orator as president. >> strong. >> would you agree as president. >> moments where the -- sure. but i think we're also in an era where we also need to get things

done and he hasn't, you know, owned that with the same intensity that he gives to oratory. >> you can't really pull out many bill clinton speeches all these years -- bill clinton is the opposite. he is great contemporaneously. >> exactly. >> but you can't pull out that great moment from bill clinton unless it's in a convention speech but douglas, you may be right, we may have four, five, six great barack obama presidential speeches that we can look back on ten years from now. >> absolutely. and a lot of it is consti went speaking. when he said stonewall at the second inaugural for gay americans that was big. when he says "yes, we can" that came from caesar chavez the slowingen from the movement. he's rang the right bell with certain constituents in the speeches. >> the next president is going to have a high bar. i wouldn't want to follow him in this category. it's going to be tough. >> coming up, who was america's greatest ceo in the oval office. we'll grade the presidents with the best economic sense.

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welcome back to "morning joe." we are dng our discussion on -- continuing our discussion on the makings of a perfect president. how would a perfect president handle the economy? >> perfectly. >> there you go. >> millions of jobs.

it would all be done. >> next segment. >> this is a hard one to build the perfect president on the economy because every economy of every age is different. >> well, not only that, we are still debating all these years later, whether the new deal worked or not. i mean -- >> right. >> in 2009, we had this huge debate and industrial output. >> it's a debate. >> versus whatever and blah-blah-blah. this is a question that never has a definite answer. >> you played a clip earlier of nothing to fear but fear itself after years of herbert hoover, the country was so depressed and very words of fdr gave them a black check with congress. i'm writing joe and mika, about the ccc, civilian conservation corps. fdr hired people all over the country to plant trees, billions of them, this was important because we had a dust bowl, a dead drought throughout the midwest. he built things like laguardia airport or the orange bowl in your state of florida or all of

these, the roads to save the smoky mountains and all while we're in a depression because he renewed america, the faith in it. the new deal worked psychologically certainly. >> we don't know ththough micha whether it worked economically. >> right. >> that's what's frustrating. the debate continues whether talking about fdr or reagan economics. what do we look forward in a president moving forward on the economy? >> i hope you don't mind if i join you in eisenhower idolatry, but in economics it's also true because do we all like balanced budgets? well the late 1950s that was the last time we had them until the '90s. eisenhower said a big part of national security is economic strength at home. he was able to hold down defense spending, avoid inflation, balance the budgets. that was very important to all of us. >> and michael duffy,

conservatives hated him. william f. buckley hated him. the national review was created as a response the publisher said at the time to eisenhower, not to democrats. taft hated him because while he was conservative, he was beshg kien in that -- like margaret thatcher she never touched the national health system in great britain, he didn't touch the new deal. >> some of the controversies on economic policies of presidents are within the parties as much as between them. so not only did conservatives think ike had gone too far, many people in the case of even the current president, barack obama, thought his stimulus package in order to solve essentially the great recession wasn't big enough, should have been twice as big. he didn't bet enough. he didn't invest enough. and so you -- even george herbert walker bush got into trouble with his economic policy when he raised taxes, changed the republican party for the next generation. there haven't really been tax

increases since. sometimes the big fights on economic policy aren't between the parties, they're inside them. that makes these controversies and historical debates go on longer and they're more even more painful. >> isn't it also the fact it's so hard to prove cause and effect with the economy. what exactly -- >> very skeptical of how much a president can actually do other than as we've suggested, how he might be able to influence the animal spirits. we all have talked about the power of optimism and fdr having in the midst of the depression his campaign song "happy days are here again." i think people sense optimism takes courage. cynicism is much easier and an optimistic president who behaves as though he can bend history to his will, can affect the economy, actually, you know, whether or not there's any practical ground truth to that, that may be the only real way the presidents have a tangible effect. >> in the past 50 years, what

presidents been best on the economy? >> bill clinton, we haven't mentioned and i think clinton really -- and you're part of that moment in the '90s, where we were able to at the cold war ended, we had a lot of bills to be paid, and clinton cut deals with the republicans. by the end of his second term, we were able to have not only a balanced budget but a surplus. clinton deserves more credit than i thought history was going to give him. you look at it and it was quite an accomplishment. >> on economic policies presidents tend to bet big. fdr did the new deal in a big way. reagan did tax cuts in a very big way. johnson goes into the great society that 89th congress, get 20 bills, they literally change the national income of the united states over 15 years. they almost doubled family incomes. so there's -- these are -- these men tend to bet very large on their economic ideas. george w. bush bet very big on tax cuts.

and i think that's a feature of how they approach it. the -- i think most of us would really expect they go very big when they decide to mess with the levers on the dashboard. >> michael, bill clinton actually bet big, but his was more of a negative bet. he didn't want to do it. >> yep. >> in 1992, he had survived the scandals of new hampshire, the struggles of new hampshire, promising a middle-class tax cut and then gets into office and, of course the famous moment where greenspan is telling him, yes, mr. president, the bonds traders are going to determine your presidency. he had to turn on the dime, the first month or two, and cause serious damage to his own party's prospects. >> no question. that's one thing historians will give bill clinton a lot of credit for, the budget bill of 1993, was very risky. barely passed it. and in retrospect i think it's not too partisan to say that had a lot to do with the prosperity

of the '90s and the fact that we were able to balance the budget. i think the other thing is that presidents always look different through the lens of those who succeeded them and through the lens of the last 13 years, i think we have to say about clinton two terms of peace and prosperity was not quite as easy as we thought it was. >> mika, you know, speaking of -- i mean the -- it's ironic. you've got republicans who, you know, they used to run around saying, with bumper stickers saying don't blame me. i voted for bush. >> right. >> and jimmy carter used to be the worst president ever. now you go to republican events and they're talking about the good old days of bill clinton. >> yes, they are. >> never thought you would see it. >> talk about vertigo. >> nancy gibbs, i think you've made the best point in terms of you can't pick the best on the economy because sometimes it takes so many years. is there a president that stands out to you as -- in terms of strength and would you agree it's bill clinton which it seems

the table does? >> i think bit both clinton -- with clinton hard to say how much was his strategic vision on the economy and how much was a peace dividend, the explosion of the information economy, and of a real transformation -- >> can say i this too, since i was there, republicans also pulling him away from the worst instincts of his own democratic party, that drove limb too far left in '93 and '94. >> at that point with both clinton and reagan is while they placed their big bets they were willing to compromise. reagan passes the biggest tax cut and then passes one of the biggest tax increases in american history. the willingness to have the reputation of having firm principles that markets and voters can believe in, but also compromise in order to get things done which both of them did, that seems to be the necessary. >> can we just say, too, while michael, while we were talking and since you sounded like you agreed with me, be i'm going to go to you -- >> i do. i agree.

>> truman, one of my favorite quotes, more tears are shed over answered prayers than anything else. >> right. >> i think one of the worst things a president can have in his first two years is his own party, especially if his own party is more conservative or liberal, in charge of congress. >> right. >> because they feed into the worst instincts of their base. >> i think bill clinton would say that. i think george w. bush would say that and i think barack obama may well say that too. >> yep. >> that's something we should think about for the future. but joe, could i quickly nominate i think the worst president on economics last 50 years. >> sure. >> richard nixon waging price controls 1971. >> all right. >> okay. >> that wasn't popular in my house either. >> no. >> what was he thinking? we're going to get back to our attempt which failed here to engineer the perfect president in a moment. first speaking of the economy, can spending cuts hurt public health? our next guest explains how some

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produce they've ever had. what would you do if i told you all this produce is from walmart? wow! is it really? (laughter) find fresh peaches and all your quality produce. backed by our 100% money back guarantee. walmart. joining us dr. sanjay and david stecher co-authors of the book be "the body economic" why austerity kills. this is an interesting -- >> it's -- that's a bumper sticker for some democrats. >> exactly. >> let's talk real numbers and talk about your point austerity has a devastating impact on health in america. >> it's a stark message but

backed up by a decade of research. looking at large recessions from the great depression straight through to the present crisis. what we found is that recession hurts, but when governments respond with deep indiscriminate austerity it can turn it into an epidem epidemic. >> give us specifics. given the numbers tell us what you found? >> one extreme in europe, greece, poster child for austerity health care budgets cut by 40%, we've seen hiv infections jump by 200%. we've seen a return of malaria as mosquito spraying programs were cut. a range of negative effects. the u.s. was seeing worrisome signs such as a rise in suicides by more than 4,750 over and above historical -- >> these same types of things can be attributed to prolonged engagement in wars and other things that have a toll on society. what's your overall theme or theory? because certainly the math adds up if you're going to make

massive cuts, people are going to suffer. but i venture to say you take it a step further. >> yeah. i think when the real issue is, what can we afford and how can we protect people. what we do is, use natural experiments, compare similar communities that are in very different circumstances and have different responses to the same shock, the same recession. and by comparing them we find pretty useful programs we can afford, to help stimulate the economy at the same time as restoring public health. >> you have a number in here, for every $1 invested in health care you say you actually get the benefit of $3 benefit. >> of public health programs more generally, not just health care, but other types of programs. it's called the fiscal multiplier. at any given time, how many dollars do you get back in return for each dollar you invest and right now, we see that being very positive. it varies at different times but build a database way of moving through the ideology and saying what should we do numerically to

respond to recession. >> i'm sorry, david, quickly, what's the impact of the sequester? >> it's an important question we need to know the answer to. had austerity been run like a clinical trial white have been discontinued given evidence of the deadly side effects. >> you talk about the multiplier, joe, you don't have to come up with a formula but the stimulus package they talked about multipliers a lot of time and a lot did not come to bear. can you give a lay person view of how you came up with the 3-1 ratio and how confident are you it's actually so? >> one of the advantages in public health we have years of data. one of the problems of the multi pliers used in the past they were very short term. the nice part about our research we've looked for a long time through the great depression to the east asia crisis to now and multiple different independent groups through peer review journals have come up with the same numbers. that gives us assurances as scientists we're talking about the same thing. >> reading from the book, toward

one of the conclusions you make, the pro pone-points of austerity propose short term pain leads to long term gain. austerity is a choice and we don't have to choose it. is there any president in history where it actually has worked? >> there are cases lowering budgets around issues, you know -- we're not ideologues. our goal is to find programs that work. there are programs that don't work in which case moving the budgets to programs that work would be useful. but the issue for us is sort of the indiscriminate cutting not knowing what we're doing and not using data in order to inform our decision. >> a lot of pushback on austerity internationally. are people trying to politicize your points? since you're saying you're neutral on that, it's an easy thing to politicize. >> inherently it's political and like anyone we have opinions. but i think it's very difficult

to separate out the data from the opinions and what we try to do in this book is really organize some of the data in a logical format. >> it's an explosive quote, it says, what you quote an economist who says, an economic recovery will kill 60,000 people in the united states. explain that. >> that's looking at data from the great depression in the u.s. where surprisingly even during a period of terrible economic hardship mortality rates fell. >> why is that? >> largely that was have a counterintuitive, that road traffic deaths fell as people drove less when their income dropped. so even in the u.s. today, we've seen a 60-year record low in road traffic deaths to the extent there's a shortage of organs -- >> and people are staying home more. not traveling quite as much. >> that is correct. >> wow. >> all right. the book is "the body economic, why austerity kills."

dr. san jay and david, thank you very much. >> thank you so much. greatly appreciate it and we'll put excerpts of this up on our website and go to it and see it. >> we'll be right back.

joining us now, contributing writer for "the new york times"

magazine, steven rodrick, author of "the majle stranger" a son's journey into his father's life which looks amazing. >> i grew up in pensacola, florida, big navy town and i had friends i went to school with whose fathers died in vietnam when they were 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. >> sure. >> and they just seemed in a way to take their father with them and many decided to become navy pilots themselves. >> sure. >> but you have a similar story about your dad. >> i do. my father was -- had just become commanding officer of his squadron and was killed in a plane crash off the kitty hawk when i was 13. the sort of extra tragedy i was supposed to -- they have these tiger cruises where you can meet your family in hawaii and come back on the boat with him. i was about to meet him and have that experience of seeing what he did. i knew he flew jet office a carrier and stuff like that but i didn't get to havehave that

chance. the book let me walk in his footsteps a bit which was a wonderful experience. >> and your father was killed november 28th, 1979, in a fatal mission precipitated the iranian hostage crisis. >> his carrier task force back in the philippines and on their way home when the hostages were taken and carter it turned around the task force as one of those classic shows of strength and they were practicing missions for a potential attack on tehran or something like that. it was a regular training mission. one of the things i got to do in the book is try to investigate his accident and come to grips with whether it was his fault which was kind of a weight that i carried throughout my life or if there was other extenuating factors. >> what did you find? >> i found out it's like a thing, you talk to different people, it could be anything from bird intake to they were flying without their radar on

because there were soviet trollers tracking the carrier task force. they were flying low and there's a difference between what your bare ra mettic and radar is telling you. >> when you talk about the time you spent with your father i remember the movie "the rookie" where dennis quaid had the strained relationship with his dad and wondered what the job he had, are all the fathers have that detachment from their kids because they're so focussed on what they're doing? >> i don't think so, actually. the other second part of the story i followed the guy who had my dad's last job named commander james tuckerware and he had taken command of the squadron, the highlight of his career. it was breaking his heart. two girls, he was going to go away nine months and miss an entire school year and come back and be almost young women. i think now more than say my dad's era, these men are -- men and women are starting to add up the damage being done to their

families, particularly with the deployments that happen year after year over the past decade. >> you write this in the magical stranger n an airless state room aboard the ""uss kitty hawk"" i find my dead father. somewhere off the vietnamese coast the roar of an f-18 hornet shot from the carrier's number two catapult blasts me awake. pilots learn to sleep through the bash and rattle of launches and recoveries. but i'm not a pilot. just a reporter. a tourist by another name. now my father was a pilot. when i was a boy, he chased sky and sea off this very ship. one day, his plane dipped ir per sentbly, a wing tapping the ocean and disintegrated. all that remained was black oil and a white helmet floating on a blue sea. what was it like to see just for a second what your dad's life was aboard the" kitty hawk."

even more than the kitty hawk, my dad's old plane that happened after this 40-year-old guy had to go through a week of swim and survival guide. flying upside down over mt. rainier and having the experience even where i booted a spectacular yellow fluid into my puke bag -- >> still amazing. >> still amazing. and, you know, i will cherish it always and it's one of the beauties of being a reporter. you can actually walk in someone's footsteps like that. >> the book that you've written -- >> a great book. >> "the magical stranger, a son's journey into his father's life." thank you so much. thank you for sharing. >> thank you for having me. >> we'll be right back. we're at the legendary southfork ranch in dallas for a cookout with world champion grill master brett galloway. he's serving his guests walmart choice premium steaks. but they don't know it yet.

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welcome back to "morning joe." >> this is serious, breaking out the neil diamond. >> oh, my gosh. you're right. >> welcome back to "morning joe" on this holiday week. continuing our fun exercise, kind of a nerd convention in some ways. >> it is -- it's -- it's sort of embarrassing how much we're enjoying this. >> yeah. >> seriously. >> we're missing jon meacham. >> you do miss meacham. he would cap it off. you guys are a little cooler but meacham would bring it down to where it needs to be. >> merge this all there. >> a fun exercise of building the perfect president, picking

the best traits of certain presidents in our history to manufacture the ideal one. still with us, rice university professor and best-selling author douglas brinkley, deputy editor of "time" magazine, nancy gibbs and "time's" executive editor michael duffy and in new york nbc news presidential historian michael beshloff. what's it take to pass a presidential agenda and deal with congress effectively? we need to talk about our present situation. >> we could talk about our present situation but a president we haven't spoken much about lbj. he was just the best at this, was he not? here's a guy, nancy, that would call subcommittee chairmen and you listen to the lbjes tapes, he would be on the phone cautalg to these subcommittee house chairmen, pushing them. why does the bill take so long to get through your subcommittee? >> he knew what scared them.

the baseline of what a president needs is that knowledge. it's interesting of modern presidents two of the four presidents in history who have served in all four major roles, congressman, senator, vice president, president are johnson and nixon and, you know, when you've done that, especially with johnson, where he knew every nook and cranny in the halls of congress -- >> and by the way, knew the insecurities of house members. and knew the -- >> did not hesitate to use those insecurities, threaten control, twist the arm. >> yeah. >> and have the advantage of a huge democratic majority. one of the elements in the story as we look back on it, is who had the votes. and people say about the great society programs passed in '64 and '65 it wasn't just kennedy's death or johnson's guilt, it took both to get all of that done. and even then they had all the votes. so some of this is just of the moment, something special, the

right counts, and he had those. >> douglas, i'm wondering as we look at barack obama whether historians will look back at 2009 and 2010, look at the decision last week in the supreme court that overturned a key part of the civil rights act of 1965, voting rights act of '65, the question historians will ask is, why didn't president obama push to update that law when democrats dominated the senate, dominated the house, and could have responded. there's so many things they could have done in '09 and '10 they did not do. >> they did bail out gm and they did do the big bailout of our economy. >> right. >> i think in that summer, the first summer of the obama presidency they kind of laid low a little bit when the tea party movement came on and had to eat up so much of the clock on the fight for obama care. >> the health care. >> if that health care sticks and works, it will be a signature achievement for this president. if it does not it will be seen

as what you're suggesting kind of squzaundsered the first two years of a presidency. >> you have to look at president's health care plan, at the bailout of the banks, you have to look at the bailout of gm, and you've got to say those first few months he did big things. i'm really talking about the decision to squander a majority for 18 months. debating a health care bill i don't think historians will look back upon favorably. i think it's going to be changed so much in the coming years. >> i think they were so focused on health care they did neglect other things. he was overoptimistic because blj, beginning of '65, biggest majority of the democrats of the whole century except for fdr, johnson said to his aides you may think i can just get things passed through congress for the next four years, i have six months and the reason is i'm going to ask for a lot of controversial bills, try to get

them done, voting rights, education, war on poverty, and after those six months, members of congress are going to be pretty sick of making sacrifices for the president and they're going to start rebelling. turned out absolutely right. when we think of the great society most of that stuff was passed in the first six months of johnson's term. >> let's bring up somebody that we haven't brought up yet, george w. bush. i find it remarkable, i think back to the early '80s, ronald reagan that dealt with tip o'neill and got a lot of stuff passed. the awac vote, reading "time" magazine, he did it again. the cover. george w. bush, in 2007, and 2008, got more things out of nancy pelosi's congress, i mean, looking back, it's remarkable. i saw "new york times" -- i mean "l.a. times" poll that showed 78% of americans were against the surge. bush didn't care. he got it through. how did george bush get

unpopular pieces of legislation through when barack obama has had trouble getting popular pieces of legislation through? >> i think he chose his targets carefully and iraq was always a special case. the country knew it wasn't working and i think everyone in congress wanted to at least fix it so people could -- the country could believe which is now just wrapping up. i think also, bush did what -- in a way what obama has done, after his own agenda was pass and george w. bush said i have six months the way johnson did. he said okay, i've done what i came to do and remember after 9/11 they had nothing really left to do. >> right. >> before 9/11. he turned and looked at marginal stuff he didn't come to do, like the huge way that we apportion aid bush oversaw especially in africa. especially with respect to disease and health. i think we're giving obama not quite enough credit in this category and say this -- >> can we just put that on me? >> no. i think we all talked about it. i think when we look back with

the great advantage on the other presidents some day they're not just going to look at the stimulus and the debate will be did it save us, and i'm guessing the answer will have been yes. >> don't forget obama has done a huge amount with republicans in the way bush did with democrats. he's done about a trillion dollars worth of tax cuts, maybe a trillion and a half. those weren't something he was really for but he did them. they've gunned $3 trillion out of the $6 trillion that simpson-bowles wanted to be done on deficit reduckship. things democrats wanted to do -- >> why does he not get the credit? because you talk to democrats and they will tell you, the deficit is going down, nancy, he's gotten tax cuts passed. >> did something no other president could do which is pass health care. >> why is this president not just from republicans but his own party, why is this president suffering the slings and arrows now? it's bad when they go to politico and actually attach their names to the negative quotes of the president. >> they're not afraid. >> unlike george w. bush, unlike

george w. bush i can tell you -- because i had a lot of friends in there -- they were afraid to vote against george w. bush. there's not that fear of barack obama, is there? >> there's not. they will go on the record because they sense his indifference to them. unlike johnson who loved dealing with congress obama has made it clear these are not his peeps. they feel that and are not scared of him. not inclined to do him favors. >> being above it all has frustrated people in the moment has usually worked for him as far as i've seen. michael, do you think historians will look at health care reform even if it's changed over time as a negative accomplishment? >> only if it fails and that's the ultimate test of any president of what he did. if he got us out of a war, did that work? did he have an economic solution, does that work? that's something we know decades later we had better also mention that there were a number of

presidents over the last century who abused the irs, who abused the fbi, used against their enemies and at least subtle threats against members of congress and that was a source of their power that i don't think they would want to be restored. >> we haven't talked about jimmy carter yet. say something good about jimmy carter. >> he has hads most successful post-presidency in american history. >> but talk about what he did. we had energy policy, jimmy carter, somebody that -- >> human rights into the par lens of our country. embracing as it transformed into zimbabwe being anti-apartheid. promoting people with brzezinski with eastern europe. putting some of the people in the soviet union, carter sense of moral human rights, the accords of gerald ford carried

on frightened them a lot. dark marks with him. i think the olympics, the boycott he did doesn't fair particularly well. carter is beloved around the world. nobel peace prize winner. it has a presidential legacy you can be proud of. david and panama canal are big. >> one of the things about jimmy carter i respect he didn't play the game when he was running, he didn't play the game when he was in washington and he's not playing the game now. even in retirement. >> he does not. >> to quote another georgian, an imagine narr nare yan georgian, doesn't give a dam what you think of him. he's the same independent guy from 1976. >> unites all the other former presidents because he drives them all crazy. >> and he stands a little bit away. >> he doesn't play the game. >> can i throw in one more thing? >> yeah. >> you know, we like the

prosperity of the 1980s and one reason for that was that paul volcker, a deficit hawk, was the head of the federal reserve and who appointed him. >> yeah. >> this reminds me of something, presidents like to say you can't judge us unless you've sat in the chair. kennedy said that. and once we asked clinton how do you size up all of these guys and he says, the most important thing that you all don't consider that you need to consider is temperament. he said, is a president in a sort of mentally made up in way that matches his time. and clinton told us, clinton said i was good maybe in this time but probably wouldn't be good ten years earlier or ten years later. i'm not sure he thinks that now. but that's a factor for them, do they fit the times in terms of temperament. >> and we've just got to say, before closing one other president, the one president that unites every member of the presidents club, george h.w. bush. >> they all love him.

>> beloved by obviously not only by bill clinton and his son, of course, and all the others, but also jimmy carter has great respect for george h.w. bush. one thing about george h.w. bush, that is so special, breakup of the soviet union he oversaw, german reunification, gulf war, successful kuwait liberation, the panama success and foreign affairs it's a remarkable presidency. >> it is a remarkable presidency. the germans still thank him for ignoring the french and having the courage to be behind reuniting germany, lead up to the first iraq war, he made every call. it really was a remarkable presidency. foreign policy. and also, let's face it, if his re-election was three months

later, he probably would have won. >> three months earlier. >> or three months earlier because the economy we found out a couple wreeeks after he lost s turning around, right? >> and he had perot to deal with too. >> i think some of the fondness others feel for him besides what he did, it's personal. the note he left for bill clinton when they do the handoff, is sort of by the time you read this, you will be my president and i'll be rooting for you and there is that -- there was that sense of i think radiant decency. >> great man. >> coming up, what some could say is perhaps the most important thing when it comes to the presidency and that would be the first lady. we'll look back at the women who made the position into what it is today when we return. ♪

♪ honey, is he too into this car thing? [ mumbling ] definitely the quattro. ♪ honey? huh? a5. what? [ sighs ] did you say something? ♪

the ones getting involved and staying engaged. they're not afraid to question the path they're on. because the one question they never want to ask is "how did i end up here?" i started schwab for those people. people who want to take ownership of their investments, like they do in every other aspect of their lives.

he has good instincts. welcome back. continuing our discussion on the makings of a perfect president with douglas brinkley, nancy gibbs, michael toughfy and michael berblove. perhaps the most important quality of a president, haven't we, that would be the first lady. right? >> how important is a first lady? maureen dowd wrote in a column about pat nixon, saying she didn't do much other than make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. nancy, maureen wrote if she made good peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and that's what the president of the united states needed, and there's nothing she could do that was more important. >> well, comfort food is key, but we know comfort generally i would say -- >> exactly. >> everyone else in the world

calling you mr. president and hanging on every word you say and telling you what you want to hear and all of the weird bubble stuff that goes on when you become president if there is one person that can tell you you need to pull your socks up and eat your broccoli that person becomes enormously important keeping you grounded and not having the job make you crazy because it is a job that will make you crazy. >> michael duffy, astonishing women. we spend all the time talking about the men but the women when you line them up each one is amazing and accomplished and all into something different and when you really think about the quality of women, one of my favorite stories is when michael told me how best truman made harry work harder. how difficult, unloving she was. >> we should say michael and i went out to the truman house and library about ten years ago. >> yeah. >> and what's the story here? >> well, the story i can tell it, is that about six months

after truman became president his wife, who had really been a collaborator with him, quiet, gave him enormous advice about who he could trust and didn't, she basically read him the riot act. for six months you've been off on your own, advisers, cutting me out and i'm not happy about it and truman listened and from then on, he made a point every evening he would come home, tell her what he was doing that day, dealing with, and he later said and we have evidence of this now, that she was just a constant flow of advice and advice from someone who didn't have to worry about currying favor with the president. >> who stands out for you? >> eleanor roosevelt. she's in a league of her own. if hillary clinton becomes president she's a child of eleanor roosevelt. broke out of the box, she stood on her own two feet and inspired women, minorities around the country, was brave. opened up a whole array of social issues to her husband and she's a powerhouse in her own

right and lady bird johnson with her beautification campaign and billboards and clean air and water and rivers and going with steward udall and kind of making american beaufication such a principle part of her time. i'm also big on nancy reagan for helping ronald reagan so much. he was codependent on her. if she left for an hour he would mope waiting for her to come back. i missed you nancy. they were the great love story of presidents. >> isn't that something. it's a tough, tough job and your heart aches -- >> tough decision. >> so much. i mean, just a silent -- you got a sense that she wasn't even comfortable in the public spotlight and had to go through so much with her husband. >> these are people who -- two people who met each other right after college out in california in a theater troupe and she was never in love with the public

life. at times she didn't want him to run. that's not uncommon among first ladies. they have misgivings about overhauling their entire life and the rest of their life. they have to live all of the thousands of cuts when a presidency fails on a massive squall that's very difficult. and you remember the most poignant moment of their relationship when pat nixon died afew years ahead, he is weeping -- he is unable barely to move. very touching moment when we study these couples. >> for a man who hated to show emotion, publicly, let's talk about barbara bush, who -- who not only spoke to truth to power with her husband but with poor jeb. we've got enough bushes out there. let's give it to somebody else. >> you can count on barbara to tell it. which i think is an enormously

valuable quality in a first lady. back to the moments i respect much pat nixon's successor betty ford, within two months of becoming first lady she's diagnosed with breast cancer and after watergate the country had gone through so many secrets an cover-ups it really was -- the transparency was essential to national healing. and she put herself out there in revealing in detail what she was going through medically and arguably saved millions of lives. when breast cancer was just not talked about. and, you know, doctors talk about the betty bump of the big increase in diagnoses because women started doing self-exams. that was an extraordinary thing for a private woman in public life to do. i would argue for the good of the country. >> i also think that -- i just -- a word about carter because we don't think about her much. she was very involved in mental health. she i think after betty ford was the person who first lady who made being an active partner

much more common. it was still controversial in the late 1970s. when we look at their career over time, these two people really are partners, not always perfect partners, they once tried to write a book together and nearly came to blows, hard thing to do, believe me, with anyone, but they were and still are partners in everything they do. one of your books tells it very well about his post-presidency. that's really unusual. and i think more typical of the recent president. >> in terms of the breaking the mold if there is one, hillary clinton who was able to carve out an identity and career of her own that still may change history, not over yet, also, though, nancy lish, like jackie kennedy did a little bit, showed how difficult the position really is. balancing a marriage and how destructive power can be to your personal -- your family. >> well, i think you put your finger on it, that all of these

women, obviously their concern for their husbands and children. most of the modern presidents we're talking about, daughters. one after another raising daughters in the white house. now you have the obama girls, the bush twins, amy carter. it's hard enough to raise daughters without doing it like that. this is one of the things that binds them together and where they help one another. where hillary clinton reached out to jackie to talk about how did you do it? how did you protect your kids? how did you let them be sane when they were living in this insane life. >> and so michael, we're talking, obviously, about right now about scandals that first lady had to deal with. talk about handling scandals generally. is there somebody, a president in your mind, that sticks out being able to handle it better than others? >> a president? >> yes. >> as opposed to first lady. >> right. >> you would have to say the one that weathered scandals. bill clinton, probably in recent

times, and i think it's probably an example of the fact of things people would have thought would be fatal to a presidency he was able to make the argument, a, i don't think that, you know, what i'm accused of is something that approaches the level of what congress is proposing for me, but at the same time, what i was hired for was to manage the economy and to an extent run america and the world and those things are working well. if it ever happens again, god forbid a president gets involved in this kind of a show, they will probably look to him. >> that partnership, the clinton partnership, is extraordinary. i mean obviously, you know, they weathered that storm like few couples could have and both came out stronger and now she will perhaps enter this group of people some day maybe, we don't know, we've been talking about. she will have a foot in both camps having done both. you know, i think we should also mention briefly, michele obama who has raised issues of obesity

and health and exercise that have -- i think she's been consistent about. we're not on the table before in ways that haven't been talked about in this context by this group of people ever. and gets a lot of good marks. >> i think we'll all be in agreement when jackie kennedy was in dallas 50 years ago, and had her husband's brains blown out in her lap and wearing her pink channel suit with the blood stains and came back and everybody was watching the kennedy assassination on cbs and nbc, what happened, who did it, and the grace that she showed, the power, the photographs, it's unbelievable what she did for our country the way she handled that tragic moment. no other first lady has had a singular moment since film and television where they had to be watched so closely and she did it in a flawless fashion. >> straight through the funeral, realizing the country needed to

mourn and have a chance for their grief to be experienced and she was very into the details of how that funeral was supposed to go and not just what her husband would have wanted but what the country needed. >> and how old was she at the time? >> 34. >> 34. >> 34 years old. >> you forget how young she was. >> so michael, since we're talking about jfk and coming up obviously this november on half a century -- >> hard to believe. >> let's assess the jfk presidency 50 years later. >> if you're making the argument for jfk, with the most basic issues of his time, civil rights bill he sent to congress 50 years ago in june of 1963, and got the country through the cuban missile crisis. looking at big picture, if you had to think of two moments you would want a president to behave well those are the two. i think he passed those two with flying colors, although obviously not ever uniformly in

success. >> the moment for me for kennedy is the berlin speech. having wrestled with the soviets and being intimidated by them and ker chev thinking he was a young whipper snapper and could push around, they go back to the bay of pigs and the cuban missile crisis he learns how to make it work and then gets to berlin and gives a speech and realizes he can master the public game. he can best them at that. he can take in dave language a whole nation by the hand. and after that berlin after 20 years, 10 years, was never an issue again. >> the moon shot. rice university. he came down and said we're going to put a man on the moon by the end of the decade and we did it. made alan shepard and john glenn folk heros in this country. everybody was willing to do it to beat the soviets to go to the moon and we did it, the fact we broke the shackles of planet earth because of kennedy's

energy and leadership. >> nancy, final word. >> when oliver wendell holmes said of fdr about second class intellects and first class temperament this brings us back to temper mn. with kennedy, praise his intellect and the best and brightest around him, the temperament for his time ended up being crucial and weathering those crises. >> thank you all for helping us try to construct the perfect president. >> this is great. >> having fun. coming up next, football legend dan marino joins us on set and grammy-award winning musician emilio estefan. "morning joe" will be right back. i'm the next american success story. working for a company where over seventy-five percent of store management started as hourly associates. there's opportunity here. i can use walmart's education benefits to get a degree, maybe work in it,

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with us now former miami dolphins quarterback and studio analyst for the nfl today, dan marino and award winning music producer emilio estefan who worked with pop stars like shakira, jennifer lopez and super star wife gloria. they are ambassadors from aarp and here to explain the new life reimagined campaign which i'm reading about and sounds absolutely timely. about getting started again, over 50, among other things, because that is where a lot of people find themselves today and there's a long way to go between 50 and wanting to really retire.

>> how old are you, dan? >> 51. >> please don't tell anybody. >> i just turned 50 and you know what -- >> he's having a hard time with it. >> everything hurts, man. >> he doesn't like -- complaining all the time. good lord. >> talk about reimagine. >> i'm not a men's lifestyle ambassador and here with emilio to launch the life reimagined.org. something i think we're very proud of it because we think it can make a difference in a lot of pao em's lives. it really helps with transition in people's lives they're changing jobs or -- and there's one thing, emile yoshgs the sounding board in life reimagined because it's like a private social network. >> it's a great time. >> can you go on-line and say my knee hurts. >> i want to say it's a great organization to have. realistically so great to have this organization that is want

to help people. a lot of ceos and big corporations, over 50. you can reinvent yourself and do a lot of new things. you will find that definitely when you go to the website. >> you discover you can reinvent yourself and a lot of people today need to. i mean they're finding themselves in a situation where they've got it figure out their options. is in part of this that addresses that as well? >> i think the one thing i talked about, the social part of it, you could, you know, when you go on-line there, you look at their transition in life and maybe if you want to change your job there's other people you can connect with and see how they did it and what they did in their life and how they were able to accomplish that. that's going to be an important factor. >> you have to do it now, life expectancy used to be 61, 62. >> no more. >> now 50, 51, 52 chances are good if you stay healthy you have po, 35 more years. >> we're perfect example. i come from business and the

whole thing with downloading you have to reinvent yourself. we went to tv, restaurants, hotels. we do a lot of life events that we produce. same thing with sports. sometimes when you are 30 years old you're too old to be a sport guy. >> i'm going to start saying for emilio, he's going to put me on tour. >> we can do that. >> i don't like getting older at all. >> you don't. >> really? >> imagine, your position, joe, when you're 50 -- >> you should be quiet right now. >> looks great. like 30 years old. >> aarp -- i mean hall of fame football player, music business, young enough. >> look at it like life is just a number. >> how hard is it to transition from all the adduelation, you've done it better than almost anybody else, nobody can understand what it's like. goen to a field, 70,000, 80,000 people every sunday and then one year it's gone.

>> that's why i'm fortunate because at least i can stay in the game somewhat by doing tv and being around the players. that's the hard part for football. there's nothing i'll do the rest of my life that will give me the same feeling i had when i was playing the game. >> but this is for like dan is one of 20 jobs like that in america. >> right. >> you had a career almost no one can match. what you're doing now is for all the people who don't have that same kind of opportunity. with all the nfl players struggling to make ends meet, 80% go broke within five to seven years of leaving the game. >> planning. that's what the organization will make a difference for a lot of people to inspire people. have an opportunity i can do -- >> thank god musicians, they're such good accountants. >> well -- >> they never -- >> [ inaudible ] tare the download situation, we have to look at them to perform live, to do all the elements right. >> is that what you've done and

what you guys have done is when the downloading started up, a lot of people started focusing on merchandising, going live, doing a lot of other things, like you said, writing for movies? >> i can tell you, done like 35 movies to a lot of movies i've done in my life. [ inaudible ] i saw the merge between the two labels and the downloading situation i say we have to do something else. we have our life sisttory, me a gloria, a lot of film on television for the bilingual market. the new market open for us. >> we need to have gloria back on the show. >> gloria says hello and loves you guys. >> she is great. you know what, she was really helpful, we went up, obviously, to a charter school with a lot of disadvantaged kids and great to have her there. >> she was so happy. >> send our visit. visit life reimagined.aarp.org for more information. dan and emilio, thank you so

much. >> thank you. >> thank you for having us. >> thank you. >> more "morning joe" in just a moment. with the spark cash card

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while staying well within your budget walls. i want to paint something else. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the the home depot. right now get $5 off one-gallon cans and $20 off five-gallon buckets of select paints and stains joining us now, columnist for the miami herald carl, out with a novel "bad monkey," guys open it up to page 235 and start reading. >> 235. >> go. start at 234, anywhere. start halfway down the page. yeah. that's what i did. randomly just opened it up. carl. >> yes. >> >> i'm sorry in advance for whatever it was. >> you know. >> it could be many things.

>> jumps off the page. >> it's very dirty. tell us about the book. you're incredible. you know we love you. this one you said, you warned us, do not show this to the children. >> that's not one of the kid's books. i wouldn't necessarily if you have an elderly relative i wouldn't show them. >> this is like an area of readership which is between the ages of 20 to -- >> 18. >> oh, 18. >> 18 these days. it's about a cop and detective in the keys, the florida keys where i used to live, where he gets busted from the police force and put on roach patrol, now he's a restaurant inspector, look in the kitchens and do the vermin census. he thinks he can solve what he thinks is a murder case. starts with a severed arm, a tourist who was fishing accidentally reels up a severed arm which happens once in a while and foils a big case and goes on from there. downhill. >> downhill.

tell me first of all, given your range, how this book differs from the others? this is your 13th novel. >> yeah. i think it's got the same twisted sense of humor or sensibility as you will. but i think it's a little more of a caper than the others. actually more of a mystery. i had to, you know -- it moves to -- i spent part of the book takes pla is in the bahamas. usually i'm in florida for the whole book, only place i know and qualified to write about. i spend a little time in the islands. part take s place during a hurricane. >> are there snakes in it? >> i don't believe there's any snakes. a deceased raccoon and then a very bad monkey, monkey is a bad monkey. >> open it to page 235. >> not a good monkey. >> i ask about snakes because he's kind of obsessed with them. long story. carl and i go back. he's sort of like -- likes having snakes. >> i used to. >> used to raise them.

>> breed snakes. yes, i did. those days are behind me. >> on his wedding day. >> yeah. >> katty, go ahead. >> i have to say i'm a huge fan and my kids are a huge fan. >> thank you. >> what i want to know, how you make the switch between writing -- if you're writing a book like this, clearly not for children, i've read more than one page, and then you start writing for kids and how do you get yourself in that different audience mindset? >> the kids really enjoy the smart -- sense of humor. the sense of humor is the same and the environmental stuff is the same and kids love to read about nature. obviously not the adult situations or the language. but my wife always says i have no trouble stepping into the adolescent point of view for the kids' books. it's a question of going back to my own childhood and adolescence and i know what made me laugh as a kid and try to write. a certain liberating thing about doing the books for kids because the characters don't come with

the baggage as my adult characters all have a lot of baggage and it's not pretty. kids are a clean slate an hit the ground running. >> at 13 books what's it like for you? where are you getting your fruit off the tree now? >> i still write a column for the miami her ralds and one toe in the newsroom. the material and inspiration comes from the very bizarre headlines out of florida every day. i was born and raised there. it's a very -- >> it's great material for you. >> it's a festival of freaks every day for me. >> a festival of freaks. i love it. >> you've written nature girls, skinny dip, sick puppy, luck you and now bad monkey. the novel bad monkey, thank you so much. great to see you again. >> nice to see you again. >> more "morning joe" in just a moment. good morning, everyone. i'm alex witt at msnbc world

headquarters coming on early because we want to take you to sanford, florida, to the courtroom where there is expected to be a tremendously powerful day of testimony in what is also expected to be the final day of testimony in the prosecution's case against george zimmerman. of course charged with second-degree murder in the case of trayvon martin's death. we are looking at the court attorneys who have been gathered there around the judge. there's motions under way right now. most notably why we are on early as you see trayvon's mother sybrina fulton has been sworn in, sitting there in the witness chair, we do expect her to talk at length about her son, most notably about that tape in which she said she could hear her son screaming and pleading for help moments before a shot was fired and no more voices were heard. nbc legal analyst lisa bloom joining me for this extended

coverage on msnbc. before we get to sybrina fulton's testimony what is going on with the attorneys right now? >> well, they're up at a side bar which means they're making legal arguments not appropriate for the jury to be hearing so this is outside the presence of the jury. the jury has been brought in. we don't know exactly what they're discussing of course because they're not miked up and we can't hear them. but it probably has to do with the nature and scope of the testimony that the jury is about to hear. i would assume that the defense wants to severely limit her testimony. after all, she wasn't there during this incident that happened. she would likely testify as you say to that 911 call, because miss lawyer is a person that called 911. that call was recorded. in the background, you can hear about 18 or 19 seconds of one man screaming, screaming, screaming and then the bullet shot rings out. one of the key questions in this trial is which one of the two is

screaming. we can presume the victim is the one screaming if that is trayvon martin screaming for his life,e zimmerman's story he killed in self-defenfulton has told law e from the beginning that's recor. she's beentain of it. er to vered i that position testify to. >> yeah. lisa, you've got to wonder certainly this will be testimony for the prosecution, but the defense will be able to cross examine her. if they do it all, i mean how delicately will they approach her as one of their witnesses? >> yeah. that's a very good question and, you know, as an attorney myself, i would be very delicate and gentle with her on cross-examination. she's a grieving mother. she has not done anything wrong. so you have to be gentle with her or you could turn the jury off. on the other hand, it is the defense's responsibility to cross examine her and any other witness and try to limit her

testimony. perhaps they will ask her if she ever heard him screaming, if she ever heard him screaming in that way. it's something really extraordinary and not something you expect a mother to have ever heard before. and we heard from an audio expert who already testified for the prosecution that the human voice sounds very different screaming than an ordinary conversation. >> and lisa, we expect the testimony to get under way, but quickly the timing of the prosecution using her on this day, likely be the last day, good call? >> yes, it is. this could be the end of their testimony. >> all right. >> very emotional testimony expected. let's listen in. >> sybrina, sybri-y-b-r-i-n-a f >> are you married? >> i'm divorced. >> do you have any children some. >> yes, i do. >> can you tell us who they are and their names? >> my youngest son is trayvon benjamin martin, he's in heaven,

and my older son is jamar fulton. >> do you live in miami, ma'am. >> yes, i do. >> have you lived in miami your entire life? >> yes, i have. >> who do you live in miami with? >> my son and my brother ronald fulton. >> was trayvon benjamin martin your son? >> yes, he was. >> and was his date of birth february 5th o 19? >>is. >> are you working at this time, ma'am? >> i am employed. i'm on leave right now. >> okay. where are you currently employed or who are you currently employed with where you're on leave? >> i actually work for miami dade county public housing and community development. >> okay. how long have you been working there, ma'am? >> i've been with the county for 24 years. i've been with the housing agency for about 10 years.

>> and prior to going to the housing agency what did you do? >> i did code enforcement for 11 years. >> can you briefly tell us about your education background, ma'am? >> i have a bachelor's degree with the minor in communications from grammar state university with half of my courses and graduated from florida memorial university in miami. >> what was your major? i'm sorry. >> english with a minor communications. >> okay. >> was trayvon martin right or left-handed? >> trayvon was right-handed. >> >> trayvon martin had two tattoos on his body. do you know where they were on his body? >> he had a praying hands on his right upper shoulder with his grandmother's and great grandmother's name.

that's the first tattoo. they were praying hands. and they had pearls going through them. >> okay. >> and do you know where the other tattoo was. >> the other tattoo was on his left wrist. he had my name there. >> okay. >> prior to your son's death, had you heard him crying or yelling prior to his death? have you ever heard him while he was growing up and raising him, ever crying or yelling? >> yes. >> okay. i want to play a recording for you, ma'am. >> 911 do you need police fire or medical? >> maybe both i'm not sure. there's someone screaming outside. >> what's the address? >> 1211 twin lane.

>> twin lane? >> is this [ inaudible ]? >> yes. >> okay. is it a male or female? >> it sounds like a male. >> you don't know why? >> i don't know why. i think he's yelling help but i don't know. send someone quick. >> okay. does he look hurt to you? >> i can't see him. i don't want to go out there. i don't know what's going on. >> they're coming. >> do you think he's yelling help? >> yes. >> all right. what is your -- >> there's gunshots. >> you just heard gunshots? >> yes. >> ma'am, that screaming or that yelling do you recognize that? >> yes. >> and who do you recognize that to be, ma'am? >> trayvon benjamin martin. >> your honor, subject to issue we discussed where she's going to be recalled i have no further

questions at this time. >> did you want to hold off on your cross until we finish the direct? >> if i can talk to her now and then if there's a need afterwards i'll continue. >> you may do so. >> good morning, ma'am. >> good morning. >> i apologize for your loss. >> objection. improper. not a question. >> okay. >> i'm sorry. >> excuse me? >> you need to ask her a question. >> you -- will you tell us the first time that you listened to that tape, when you listened to it, where were you? >> i was here in sanford. i believe it was the mayor's office. >> and ta was pursuant to a request made by your lawyers to have that tape released, correct? >> that's correct. >> and my understanding, it

happened actually in the mayor's office, correct? into yes. >> and there were no law enforcement officers present? >> they were there but they wasn't actually in the room. >> they were not allowed in the room, correct? >> i don't know about that. >> okay. . were you present there when chief lee was talking to the mayor and to city manager about the concern of having the tape released? >> objection as to hearsay. >> i asked whether or not she was there, your honor. >> objection? >> my objection to hearsay what somebody else said in her presence. >> rephrase your question. >> were you there during the time that chief lee, chief of police lee, was having a conversation with the mayor and the city manager? >> no. >> when the tape was played for you, who played it for you? >> i'm not absolutely sure.

i'm just trying to remember back. i think it was the mayor. >> it was not any law enforcement officer? >> it was not. >> and who was in the room when that tape was played? >> trayvon's dad tracy martin, javar ris fulton, stephanie sands, darian sands, benjamin crump, attorney natalie jackso., i believe mayor triplet was there and there may have been one other person, i'm not absolutely sure but i think [ inaudible ]. >> that's sanford city manager? >> yes. >> was the tape the first time that you heard that tape, was it

played at one time for everybody that was in the room? >> yes. >> did any one of those witnesses listen to the tape individually? or was it all at one time? >> i don't know if they listened individually, but that was my first time hearing it. >> well, had anybody indicated to you in that group they had listened to the tape before? >> no. >> did tracy martin tell you he listened to the tape before? >> no. >> had you had any conversations with him about listening to the tape before that event sp. >> no. >> i imagine it was probably one

of the worst thing you went through to listen to that tape, correct? >> absolutely. >> that if it was your son, in fact, screaming as you've testified, that would suggest it was mr. zimmerman's fault that led to his death, correct? >> correct. >> and if it was not your son screaming, if it was, in fact, george zimmerman, then you would have to accept the probability that it was trayvon martin who caused his own death, correct? >> i don't understand your question. >> if you were to listen to that tape and not hear your son's voice, that would mean that it would have been george zimmerman's voice, correct? >> and not hear my son screaming, is that what you're asking? >> yes, ma'am. >> i heard my son scream. >> i understand. the only alternative, would you agree, would be if it was not your son screaming it would be george zimmerman, correct? >> objection as to speculation.

>> sustained. >> you certainly had to hope that was your son screaming even before you heard it, correct? >> i didn't hope for anything. i just simply listened to the tape. >> in your mind, as his mother, there was no doubt whatsoever that it was him screaming, correct? >> absolutely. >> did you have any thought in mind how you would react if it -- if you believed or didn't hear your son's voice? >> i really didn't know what the tape was all about. >> and everybody else in the room when they listened to the tape, who was the first one to react? >> i was. >> and everybody else then reacted similarly to you, correct? >> well, they also heard the tape themselves. >> correct. andve