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tv   The Daily Rundown  MSNBC  July 8, 2013 6:00am-7:01am PDT

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television and politics. >> exactly. yot spitzer. >> i learned that mika spent part of her week off at 10 downing street sitting in winston churchill's chair, how is that. >> steve making fun of my vacation. hey, i was not in the south of france. my brother, mark, is doing an incredible job as ambassador to sweden so i thank him very much. all right, that's it for today. if it's way too early, it's time for "morning joe." time for chuck todd with "the daily rundown." have a great day. good morning from washington. it's monday, july 8th, 2013. i'm chuck todd. it's a busy day in washington. live pictures of the courtroom in sanford, florida, where any minute, george zimmerman's lawyers will start calling witnesses. they put zimmerman's mother on the stand to make an assessment
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of the calls made on the night 17-year-old trayvon martin was killed. prior to that, prosecutors presented their final witnesses including trayvon martin's mother who testified it was her son screaming on the call. we heard from the medical examiner who performed martin's autopsy. >> i believe he was alive for 1 to 10 minutes after he was shot it. his heart was beating until there was no blood left. at that point, his heart stopped. >> are you saying he could move or he couldn't in terps of -- can you say it one way or the other? >> from my experience, on other autopsy i did three weeks ago, i don't believe he can move after
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shot. >> joining me now, craig melvin and legal analyst lisa bloom in new york. craig, starting with you what do we expect to see today from the defense? >> the defense, third witness, and over the weekend we learned from mark o'mara that at some point, perhaps as early as today, the defense plans to call tracy martin. of course the father of 17-year-old trayvon martin. they're going to call tracy martin perhaps for the same reason that the state chose not to call tracy martin. tracy martin shortly after they played that 911 tape, police played the neighbor's 911 call for tracy martin said to the police officer, according to the police detective's report, i asked mr. martin if the voice calling for help was that of his son. mr. martin emotionally impacted
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by the recording, quietly responded no. the defense of course will pounce on that. we should note tracy martin later said it was, in fact, his son's voice on that 911 call. the defense is going to be calling a number of witnesses. don't know if we're going to hear from them later today. mark o'mara said other the weekend that he was having a good time with the trial, but he expected that he could probably try and wrap this thing up late to mid, this week. >> after watching the prosecution try to make their case, do you think the defense is altering their plans based on what they believe the prosecution either successfully did or unsuccessfully didn't prove? >> they probably are, but both sides in this case knew before the trial began what the other side was going to do. that's because florida has very extensive pretrial discovery. even in a criminal case, witnesses can be deposed and are
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deposed which means they give a lengthy statement before trial. so there probably aren't a lot of surprises for either side once the trial gets under way. >> and, craig, there was a lot of emotion on friday when you ended up hearing from both mothers. that type of emotion there today or a little more clinical? >> based on what we're hearing from mark o'mara, it probably is not going to be that emotional today. like you just said, both of the mothers have already testified. we heard from george zimmerman's uncle on friday. that did illicit so many emotion as well. right now, by the way, i think we've got a live look inside the courtroom, there's the scene that's playing out. the court called to session. george zimmerman there. a bit of a ritual at the beginning of court here as of late. there's another side bar that's been called by the defense attorneys, by the state's
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attorneys and judge nelson. not exactly sure what they're talking about now but once they break we expect the defense to call its third witness. the state called some 38 witnesses. so it will be very interesting to see precisely how many witnesses the defense calls. >> right. i know we know the jury has not been brought into the courtroom yet. when you look at what the prosecution accomplished or failed to accomplish, what in your mind did they do best at accomplishing and making their case and where did they come up short? >> i think the prosecution started slowly. they certainly put on the witnesses they had to put on. many of the early law enforcement witnesses really ended up being better for the defense on cross examination. by the middle of last week, i think the prosecution started picking up steam because they were establishing a number of inconsistencies in zimmerman's story. that's what this trial is going
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to come down to. will the jury believe, sure, when you tell the same story over and over in detail, there are going to be some minor changes. or will the jury think he's out and out lying and lying about critical aspects. lying, for example, about whether he followed trayvon martin. lying about whether trayvon martin saw the gun and reached for the gun. the most important fact in the case is george zimmerman said his gun was holstered, yet he said trayvon was on top of him, pinning him. if that's true, how did trayvon martin see the gun behind his body? add to that that the gun in the holster are both black, it was a very dark night. i mean, that may be a big problem for zimmerman. these are the kinds of things the prosecution can pull together in close arguments. during the trial, a lawyer can't stand up and explain to the jury, here's why i'm calling this witness.
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so we as legal analysts are left to explain it ourselves. i think closing arguments are critical. >> do you subscribe to the theory that the state overcharged? would it have been easier to get a manslaughter conviction? >> i don't know. i think that's a tough call. ill will, hatred and spite are the elements of second degree murder. intentional shooting with ill will, spite and hatred. they have zimmerman's words recorded on the nonemergency police call. he says these a-holes always get away, these f'ing punks. that can establish ill will. even later, even months later on the hannity interview, he says the killing was god's plan and he has no regrets. harsh words. presumably after he's been prepped by his attorney. >> the atmosphere outside the courtroom today, how is it? >> you know what, chuck, that's
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an interesting question, because before the trial, folks here, officials, law enforcement, they were bracing for protests. we thought there might be a number of protesters in front of the courthouse. there's an area that's cordoned off. there's some police officers who were assigned to watch that area. the largest number of protesters we've seen to this point, three. that was one day last week. so there have not been the protests a lot of folks thought we might see. there's public seating available inside the courtroom as well. folks who are just interested, folks who live nearby and might be interested. there have only been a handful of days where we've seen the courtroom 100% full. that public seating area completely full. lisa just hit on a couple things and i wanted to piggyback. there are several essential questions with regard to this case. i don't know if any of those questions have been answered
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definitively yet. the first question being whose voice is heard on that 911 call. you had trayvon martin's mother saying it was her son's voice. you had george zimmerman's mother saying it was her son's voice. you've got tracy martin who at one point said it wasn't his son but now he thinks it is his son. also, who started the conflict. how did the conflict start. would who was on top during the conflict. those are essential questions here. at this point, none of those questions have been answered definitively. >> well, that's why it's going to take a jury to decide that. i'm going to try to sneak in a break here before the trial starts it we may even try to sneak in what's happening and what matters here in washington. we'll be right back with the george zimmerman trial live from sanford, florida. first, a look ahead. today's politics planner. it's all over the place. we'll hear from the president today talking about government
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efficiency. by the way, rick perry will reveal his political plans today. everybody in texas seems to be betting against him running for re-election. but the man has surprised people before. you're watching "the daily rundown" only on msnbc. hey linda!
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we're still waiting for the jury to be brought in to the courtroom. and when they are, then we know the public portion of the trial will continue. and the defense will call more witnesses. meanwhile, let's turn to some other news that we know a lot of folks are trying to follow. the chaos and bloodshed in egypt where soldiers and police are opened fire on supporters of former president morsi. there are conflicting reports about what prompted the
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shooting. more from cairo. >> a deadly incident this morning outside the republic guard headquarters. both sides trading accusations the other was at fault. the muslim brotherhood describing it as a massacre. simply engaged in morning prayers when the military opened fire on them with live ammunition and tear gas. that led to the scenes of mayhem at the local field hospital. the military for its part says it was acting in self-defense. that its soldiers came under attack by those protesters who were lobbing molotov cocktails and using ammunition as well. eyewitnesses describe the scene as very chaotic. certainly one that is disturbing. it is more likely to undermine the political negotiations to try and get an interim
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government in place. those negotiations have been ongoing but no clear consensus as to who should become the interim prime minister. yesterday, there was some news that the former head of the iaea, dr. mohammed elbaradei was expected to become the interim prime minister but those negotiations were stalled. so still without a functioning government as the security situation deteriorates. many people fear the violence is only going to repeat itself in the coming days. >> i can tell you this, the obama administration is focused specifically on trying to get morsi released. that is their priority one. why he didn't call it a coup, because that would have suspended military aid immediately, but instead trying to use a carrot and stick approach. we'll see if it works. that is priority number one. as you know, as you can tell, the united states is going to be a lot more hands on when it comes to egypt in the coming
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weeks and days ahead. meanwhile, let's bring back msn msnbc's craig melvin and nbc legal analyst lisa bloom from new york. lisa, in some ways, it's trying to get you to respond to some of the central questions that craig says haven't been answered. will the defense be able to answer them in any definitive way with the witnesses they bring up over the next few days? >> one of the biggest issues the last few days is who is screaming on that 911 call. one of these two men is screaming. the bullet shot rings out. and then the screaming stops. family members differ -- family members of trayvon martin say it's trayvon martin screaming. how is the jury going to sort that out? they may not be able to. you have to consider the screamer stops when the gun is shot. i think that might make it more likely that it's trayvon martin screaming. now, zimmerman says or his
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defense attorney says no, zimmerman was screaming and he stops when the gunshot goes off because the threat is eliminated. the problem with that, zimmerman did not think the let it was eliminated. he said he thought trayvon martin was still alive. in fact, that's why he turned him over, spread his arms out. so that's something i can see developed further in close arguments. i think the bottom line is the jurors will say, we can't tell who was screaming so we will just cast that aside. >> doesn't that explain why zimmerman was stalking trayvon martin in the first place? >> sure they do. the nonemergency dispatcher said, are you following him, zimmerman said yeah, the dispatcher said, we don't need you to do that, and he clearly did continue to follow him. their explanation is, look, there's nothing illegal about it. if you follow at a safe distance. even though he was told not to, he's allowed to do that. that's the defense position.
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>> craig, does the prosecution, did they hang too much on the 911 calls? >> i'll leave that one to -- i'll leave that one to lisa, but i do think, you know, if you've got one mother saying that it's her son screaming in the background, you've got another mother saying it's her son, you've got an uncle saying it's his nephew. at some point, yeah, i think lisa's right, it becomes difficult for a jury to sift through. you probably just say we don't know and move on. the jury is back in court now. this is day 20 of this trial. day 10 of testimony. 38 witnesses called by the state. the defense is going to call its third witness here when judge nelson goes through this routine that she goes through at the beginning of court every day, and after lunch.
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it is interesting i think that she asks the jurors, have you tweeted anything, have you twittered anything. no one's told judge nelson, you know, obviously tweet's a verb -- >> i noticed that too. >> you guys can go ahead and start live tweeting. we're going to go to the courtroom. the first defense witness of the day has been called. we'll take you to the courtroom. as we wait for the defense witness, we have not heard who has been called in, but we are waiting. the jury is awaiting and here she is. we are waiting for sandra off thorman is who has been called. and at this point, i think we should just simply take you to the courtroom as she takes her oath. >> looks as though this is not the traditional computer from this courtroom so the log is not on it.
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if we don't know it, i may need a minute to just use mine. [ inaudible ] this might just take a moment, your honor. multitasking. i'll begin with her. >> state your name please. >> sandra ofterman. >> you live here in seminole county? >> yes. >> how long have you lived in seminole county? >> 16 years. >> are you married? >> yes. >> who are you married to? >> mike ofterman. >> he's testified before. what's his occupation? >> he's a -- mark osterman -- >> and he's testified before.
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what's his occupation? >> he's a federal air marshal. >> okay. and he's been involved in law enforcement quite some time, hasn't he? >> yes. >> okay. and how long have you been married? >> almost 17 years. >> okay. do you know george and shelly zimmerman? >> yes. >> tell me how you met george. >> i met georgie at a mortgage company called first trust back in 2006. >> okay. and was that a place where you've worked together? >> yes. >> and what type of work did you do back then? >> mortgage business. >> and was mr. zimmerman doing something similar? >> yes. he was in the sales and i was processing. >> okay. did you guys become friends over the time that you work together? >> yes. >> did you maintain that friendship? >> yes. >> and is that friendship that brings you here today, is that
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correct? >> yes, it is. >> and i know that you were present or around during the time both preceding the event that brings us here and of course right after the event, correct? >> that's correct. >> what i'd like to do, houweve, today, is just focus your attention on one subject of that. that is the, we are calling the lawer 911 tape to identify to you that's the tape that has a voice in the foreground, turns out her name is miss lawer. voices in the background. or voice in the background. and then what we now know to be the gunshot that killed mr. martin. >> right. >> so before we get to that, tell me other the past few years how often would you and george zimmerman interact? >> we, we worked with each other
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every day. and then his wife and i were best friends and we'd all kind of hang out together. at least every week or so. >> all right. have you had a good opportunity to hear george's voice? >> yes. >> would that be in person? >> yes. >> and over the phone? >> yes. >> if you would, tell the jury sort of the range. i mean, would you hear him -- not to lead you, but just sort of talking, laughing, just kind of go through the different types of conversations or voices, if you will, that you heard. >> i would hear him talking and laughing and maybe a little frustrated. >> okay. and was it -- would this be sort of over the several years that
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you've known him? >> right, yes. >> all right. now, you acknowledge that you're a good friend of his, correct? >> that's correct. >> you guys have helped each other out over the years, correct? >> that's correct. >> certainly, you've helped out or helped the family through the initial stages of this event, correct? >> yes. >> then there was a time when you could no longer have contact with him. >> yes. >> because of the case. >> yes. >> okay. still maintain a friendship though from afar? >> as far as i'm concerned. >> okay. would your friendship with him impact on how you're going to testify today regarding what you may hear on the tape? >> as far as would i lie? >> well, i guess that's the easier -- that's a nonlawyer way to say it. >> i wouldn't lie for him or anybody. >> okay. let me, if i might, your honor, play what's already in evidence as exhibit 158. >> you may do so.
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>> 911. police, fire or medical? >> maybe both, i'm not sure. there's just someone screaming outside. >> okay, what's the address that they're near? >> 2011 lane. >> is it -- >> yes. >> is it a male or female? >> sounds like a male. >> and you don't know why? >> i don't know why. i think they're yelling help but i don't know. just send someone quick, please. >> okay, does he look hurt to you? >> i can't see him. i don't want to go out there. i don't know what's going on. >> give me the phone. what happened? >> they're sending. >> you think he's yelling help? >> yes. >> what is your phone number? >> just -- there's gunshots.
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>> you just heard gunshots? >> yes. >> how many? >> have you had a chance to listen to that tape before today? >> yeah. >> and on how many occasions? >> a few. >> okay. do you have -- do you know whose voice that is in the background screaming? >> yes, definitely, it's georgie. >> and how -- >> i just hear, i hear it, i hear him screaming. >> nothing further, your honor, of this witness. i'm going to leave this here in it's ka tcase the state wants t play it. i'll show you how to do it on this computer. >> we may need another -- [ inaudible ] >> i apologize. >> no problem at all. i'm sure she knows better than either one of us. let me undo this.
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>> you and your husband wrote a book on behalf of the defendant, did you not? >> let me object, your honor, outside the scope of direct. >> your honor, it shows bias. i would like to proffer how that issue would bias -- >> okay, overruled. >> you and you husband mike osterman wrote a book regarding mr. zimmerman? >> yes. >> i believe you stated you and
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your husband, whatever money was made, you were going to donate it to mr. zimmerman, is that correct, to his cause? >> yes. >> you would agree you have a stake in this, don't you? >> a stake? >> yeah, in terms of the book. how many books have been sold as a result of mr. zimmerman being charged with his crime, in terps of you all, how many books have you guys sold? >> i have no idea. >> and all the money that is being made from that book, are you all profiting from it or donating the profits from -- >> actually, we're dear posting it into our savings for george after. >> okay. you keep saying george. george zimmerman we're talking about, the defendant, correct? >> that's correct. >> and i believe you've known mr. zimmerman for how long? >> since 2006. >> and you met him through work? >> that's correct. >> in fact, you ended up marrying he and his wife, correct? >> that's correct. >> he is left handed, correct?
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>> yes. >> now, regarding the recording that was played for you, you heard it two or three times you said or four times, i'm sorry -- >> a few times. >> okay. did it take you a while to figure out who was actually yelling? >> absolutely not. >> the first time you heard it -- >> very first time. >> i apologize, i interrupted you, ma'am. >> the very first time, i knew it was george. >> why did you have to listen to it more than once? >> based it's played on the news all the time. >> the first time you heard it on the news? >> yes. >> on the news, it was dealing with this case, george zimmerman, correct? >> yes. >> you are aware the recording was dealing with george zimmerman? >> yes. >> okay. >> and that in no way influenced you in reaching your opinion that this was george zimmerman on the recording? >> no. >> okay. now --
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[ inaudible ] ma'am, listen to this and tell me if you recognize this voice. >> there's an objection. >> actually, just a request for what exhibit it is. >> what exhibit are you playing, please? >> it is part of the 911 emergency call that the defendant made. i didn't want to tip her off in terms of the recording. that's why i'm purposely -- >> okay, go ahead. >> i didn't mean to give it away. >> well, now you know what i'm
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going to play for you. i was trying to do it so that -- but you have heard this recording before, correct? >> no. >> okay, let me play a part. see if you recognize this. >> [ bleep ] -- >> do you recognize that voice? who's that voice, pardon my language, saying, "these assholes, they always get away"? >> that's georgie. >> george zimmerman? >> yes. [ inaudible ] >> i apologize. just go up here, okay. ask if you recognize this. >> he's running. >> which way is he running? >> he's running towards --
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>> okay, what's that heading towards? >> the back entrance. >> did you recognize that voice? >> yes. >> and was that [ muted ] pardon the language, these -- >> oh, i didn't [ muted ] -- >> [ muted ] punks -- >> [ muted ]. >> what entrance is that that he's heading towards? >> the back [ muted ]. [ muted ] punks -- >> [ muted ] -- >> [ muted ]. >> okay. now, you have never actually heard the 911 tape other than
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when it was being played george zimmerman, but you had not heard the defendant screaming before, had you? >> like that, no. >> yes. >> no. >> okay, thank you very much, ma'am. >> any redirect? >> just a bit, your honor. do you need this -- >> no. >> so you heard him say the word assholes, right? >> yes. >> on the tape? >> yes. >> and you heard him talk for years now, correct? >> that's correct. >> did that word, the way he said assholes, did that give you a sense that he was acting with spite or ill will or hatred in that sense? >> no. >> did that seem to be -- just an offhand way of talking about whoever it was he was talking about? >> yes. >> knowing as you do george's voice throughout the years, did you even -- by the way, the second tyime, did you hear him say the expletive repeated? >> i didn't hear that, no. >> even the second time you were
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answering it, you were saying generally that's george zimmerman's voice? >> correct. >> but you [ muted ] -- >> i didn't hear that. >> okay. even turned up as loud as he could [ muted ]. in everything that you heard him say on that tape, was there anything in george's voice that gave you the impression that he was angry or acting with ill will, spite or hatred on that phone call? >> no. >> so since you've never heard him scream like this before, how are you certain it's his voice? >> i just -- felt it, i knew it was him, i just knew it. and i saw the reaction that his wife had in listening to it. i mean, we were all together. it was definitely george. >> but it is your own opinion --
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>> absolutely. >> separate and apart frommer else's that the voice you just heard was george zimmerman screaming for help? >> absolutely, yes. >> thank you, nothing further, your honor. >> you were asked about the -- i'm not going to play it again, but the two things i played, the the two clips, correct? >> yes. >> where he either -- pardon my language, assholes, are you saying that that's -- that he speaks that on a normal basis, on a regular basis? >> i'm saying i've heard him say it before. >> you're saying when he is following somebody and he's referring to these, pardon my language, these ass holes always get away, he's just trying to invite them out to dinner? >> i don't think i said that, no. >> okay. you were asked in terms of your impressions, whether it was ill will, hatred. somebody is talking to somebody else in that manner, you think they're saying, hey, come on over, let's talk, let's go out to dinner. >> i don't think he was angry. >> you don't think he was angry? >> not at all. >> you were there that night?
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>> i was not. i only have what you have to listen to. >> you're speculating how he was feeling based on those two terms, correct? >> i guess we both are. >> right? >> yeah, i guess so. >> is that right? >> yes. >> okay. but what you're saying is when somebody tells the police, which he's talking to, that these, pardon my language, these assholes always get away, eehe' not upset that in the past people have gotten away and this time they're going to get away, this time, mr. trayvon martin's going to get away, you don't take it as that? >> i don't take it as he's angry, no. >> okay. and when somebody, as mr. zimmerman [ muted ] -- >> -- speaking objection -- >> sorry, lack of proper foundation. >> okay -- >> i'll be glad to play it
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again, your honor. >> okay, please do so. >> and the second one would be speculation, even if it's played again. let him play it again. >> and we can get you some headphones if you need to. we can go upstairs -- >> your honor, also, under 106, request in the rule of completeness that the entire tape be played. >> go ahead and play the entire tape. do you want headphones? >> yes, i want to play her this part. i'll be glad to play the entire tape. i want to focus on this part. i requested a rule of completeness. that is the entire tape -- >> he's going to do it so -- >> okay, thank you, your honor. >> he said he will do it. >> okay. [ muted ] --
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>> which entrance? >> the back entrance. [ muted ]. >> okay. did you hear [ muted ], correct? >> i do recognize his voice. >> okay, and you heard him say [ muted ] -- >> it didn't -- i don't think so. >> you want me to play it again? >> i've heard it three times. i don't think his voice is changing. >> you think he's -- his voice is just constant throughout that? >> it seems to be to me. >> okay. all we're asking you is what you believe, having heard that. and you heard the word, pardon my language, [ muted ], did you
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not? >> i did not hear [ muted ]. >> okay, [ muted ] -- >> without objection -- [ inaudible ] >> 174, your honor -- 170. >> apologies for letting some foul language slip through our monitors there. that continues to be the case. we are doing our best to try to blank it out. so when you don't hear audio, there's nothing wrong with your television, it is us trying to prevent the foul language from making it over the air. take you back to the trial.
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[ inaudible ] >> yes, your honor, part of state's exhibit 173. thank you.
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>> we've had some break-ins around here, real suspicious kind, tree view circle. it looks -- as far as i can get, 111 tree view circle. this guy looks like he's [ muted ] up to no good or something, walking around, looking about. looks black. >> did you see what he was wearing? >> yeah, dark hoody, like a gray hoody, either jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes.
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just staring -- >> okay, just walking -- >> at all the houses. now he's staring at me. >> basically, it's 111 tree view or 111 -- >> that's the clubhouse? >> he's near the clubhouse right now? >> yeah, now he's coming towards me. >> okay. he's a black male. >> okay, how old with you say he looks? >> he's got a but tton on his shirt. late teens. >> okay. >> something wrong with him. he's coming to check me out. he's got something in his hands. i don't know what it is -- >> we got them on the line, just let me know if there's anything else. >> okay.
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[ muted ] always -- when you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in, you go left. actually, you go past the clubhouse. >> okay, so it's on the left-hand side from the clubhouse? >> straight through the entrance and then you make a left -- [ muted ].
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>> all right, george, what's your last name? >> zimmerman. >> george, what's the phone number you're calling from? >> 417-435-2400. >> all right, george, we do have them on the way. do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there? >> yeah. >> all right, where you going to meet with them at? >> if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and around. straight past the clubhouse and make a left. and then go past the mailboxes. >> what exactly are you parked in front of? >> don't know. it's a clubhouse so i don't really know the address. >> okay, do you live in the area? >> yeah, i live -- >> what's your apartment number? >> it's a home, 1150 -- oh, crap, i don't want to -- >> okay, do you want to just
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meet them right near the mailboxes then? >> yeah, that's fine. >> all right, george, i'll let them know to meet -- >> could you have then call me and i'll come to meet them? >> okay, that's no problem. >> do you want my number or -- >> i got it. >> yeah. >> okay, no problem, i'll let them know to call you when they're in the area. >> thanks. >> you're welcome. >> believe that was the entire tape, the phone call that he made. you recognize the defendant's voice. >> yes. >> okay. you were also asked by mr. o'mara whether you -- in terms of you being positive, that the voice you heard on the other call -- do you want me to play that again for you? >> no. >> okay. you recognize that as being -- you believe george zimmerman, is that correct? >> yes. >> in that call, when you heard the cries for help, correct?
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>> yes. >> did you ever hear any interruption at all? did they interrupt or were they continuous cries for help? weren't they continuous cries for help? >> yes. >> thank you. >> you're welcome. >> any redirect? >> there is some based upon the new information presented, your honor. now that you've had a chance to listen to the entirety of the phone call, i want to ask you some questions about that, okay. >> okay. >> anywhere upon that call, any word, any sentence, any phrase, did you hear anything that to you, knowing george zimmerman's voice as you do, evidenced that he was angry or acting with ill will? >> no. >> that he was spiteful in his presentation to the law enforcement officer? >> no. >> when he said things like he
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looks black, did that come across to you as spiteful or hateful? >> no. >> what about when he was -- right after he said the word "asshole," when he was giving directions to the clubhouse -- you heard the word and i know we're throwing out curse words, but understand in the courtroom, we live with the evidence, so using that word, assholes, i think you testified that did not evidence to you any ill will or hatred? >> no. >> when he said, need directions to the clubhouse, did he seem exasperated or angry in that? >> no. >> when he said shit, he's running away, then the officer asked him, where's he run, and he said, down towards the back entrance, did that language to you evidence any anger or hatred? >> no.
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>> how about when the officer asked him and he said, we don't need you to do that and george said, okay, did you hear any anger in that? >> no. >> did you -- could you identify what that wind noise or that sound was during that part of the conversation? >> no, i didn't know. >> when he said -- when they were talking about where to meet and mr. zimmerman gave him his telephone number, any anger that you heard in that? >> no. >> when he said the word crap, that he had just give be out his telephone number out there in the open, when he said that word, crap, did it evidence any anger or ill will or spite or hatred to you? >> no. >> how about right after he used that word, the one he just said, yeah, i'll meet him at the mailboxes and he said no, just call me.
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anything in his voice to you that he was getting upset or angry at anybody, the person he may have been talking about? >> no. >> asked you whether or not those screams were continuous and you said you thought so. >> yes. >> did they seem to be scream time, scream, time, scream, time, or was it -- >> objection, improper -- >> rephrase the question. >> may i give an alternative? >> rephrase your question. >> okay. did you hear gaps between the screams, gaps in time between the screams? >> um -- >> help ask it this way. was that one long continuous scream without any stopping or was it individual screams? >> i don't think it was long and
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continuous. but there were a lot of cries for help. >> a lot of separate cries. >> objection, leading question. >> sustained. >> nothing further. >> may miss osterman be excused? >> yes, your so mr. osterman c excused? >> yes. >> next witness please. >> i would like to call mark osterman, your honor. >> you just heard the defense call mark osterman, which is the husband of the witness you just heard from on behalf of the defense. no doubt that some of the questions will probably be very similar. as to what you just heard asked of mrs. osterman there. a little programming note for you. we will have expanded versions of "first read" in the gaggle
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coming up on our website msnbc.com, so we invite you for my political junky friends, to tune in to that. i'll let you know on twitter. now back to the trial. >> i do. >> you may proceed. >> thank you, your honor. >> do you want to state your name? >> mark osterman. >> and you have testified in this case before, right? >> yes. >> you acknowledge that you're still or presently under oath as you testify before the jury? >> yes, sir. >> and i know that we don't go very far into your background, and i know it was talked about before, but you're a federal air marshal? >> i am. >> lived your life within the confines of law enforcement? >> yes. >> you know george zimmerman, obviously?
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>> yes. >> i would like to focus in on a couple of subjects. first any information you have regarding mr. zimmerman accomplishing a concealed weapons permit. are you aware of that process? >> i am. >> and if you would, would you tell the jury what interactions you had with zimmerman in that regard? >> objection. >> overruled. >> in reference to the concealed weapons permit. we had talked about him getting a concealed weapon's permit and how to go about it. there was a local sports store, i think it was gander mountain, that was putting on a class for the concealed weapons permit. he had signed up for it and his wife, and they both took the class together which provided training and the actual fingerprinting and other things. >> and did you have discussions with him about gun safety? >> often. we had gone to a shooting range on several occasions, probably
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eight or ten occasions and each time, firearms safety was always at the first or the top of our list of discussions. >> and generally speaking, tell the jury what you mean by firearm safety. >> well, firearm safety at a range means always being safe and aware of where your firearm is being pointed, making sure it's in a safe condition until you're ready to fire it or if it's not being pointed in a direction that it shouldn't be pointed and making sure it's handled correctly and george was very safe all the time. >> and that was in part based upon your instruction to him? >> that is possible. >> and did you discuss with him the type of weapon to purchase and the purpose for it? >> yes, we did. >> if you would explain to the jury about that. >> well, there are many different types of firearms for
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many different purposes. some are for competition, if you wish to compete and travel and compete in firearms competitions, you would use a certain type of firearm for that. some are for self-defense. and those would be a little more compact, a little smaller, able to keep on your person with a concealed weapons permit. some would be just for, let's say, home defense and they would be a little larger in size. but the ones you would have for personal defense, those would be the ones that i recommended george would get. we chose a cal tech firearm. when you have an external safety on a firearm, sometimes it can be dangerous to the person who owns the firearm, such as if you need to use it in a very stressful situation, sometimes
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your mind will lock up a bit, will not allow you to think that extra step of pulling the safety down before you need to use it to defend yourself. so as most law enforcement agencies or all that i'm aware of, they don't have an exterior safety on your firearm, which means there's no extra button to push. the only natural safety that you would have is an extended trigger pull. that means the trigger is not, what people sometimes call a hair trigger, it's an extended trigger pull to where it can't be just accidently squeezed and have the firearm go off. >> what were the characteristics of the cal tech 9 that you focused on for zimmerman to
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purchase for personal safety. >> our discussion went to the type of firearm to where you're, ironically enough we had this discussion, if you're in a tussle and you need to utilize a firearm and there's a situation that's so stressful that you can't think to remove one or two exterior safeties and you need to protect yourself and you need to do it right now, the cal tech was the type of weapon that was good for him. >> i'm not supposed to ask you what weapon you carry for work, so i won't. but can i ask you whether or not it has an external safety. >> every law enforcement job i have ever had, none of those guns have ever had a safety. >> and so that's the law enforcement's choice of those type of firearms? >> that is by design. >> did you give any -- have any
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conversations with mr. zimmermans to how to keep a firearm, whether it be a loaded position, unloaded position or how that would be ready for use if necessary? >> i would have -- i suggested that you keep one loaded in the chamber because some people, if you're in your home and you have, let's say children in your home that obviously should not have contact with it, but if an accident happens, it happens to be left somewhere, not having one in the chamber might be the smarter option, to where someone would actually have to manually manipulate the automatic firearm to put a round in the chamber too allow it to be fired. if you're in a situation where you're walking around day to day, and you have it in a concealed weapons capacity, having one in the chamber is something that has to be done because if you absolutely need to use it to protect someone
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else in society or yourself, that extra step sometimes is the difference between life and death. >> you keep a round chambered in your gun? >> all the time. >> and do you know any law enforcement agency that would suggest that that's inappropriate to do? >> it's against policy to not have one in the chamber. >> did you have any discussions regarding having a full magazine after chambering one? and what's that concept? >> well, the suggestion i made to george was, we had talked about that and how he had heard that by not adding the extra round in the magazine, did something to the spring, it kind of maybe come pressed the spring down too long. and maybe firearms that were made in the '70s or '80s, the spring did not have a memory. but now with the cal tech
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firearm, i can't think of a situation why you wouldn't add another into the magazine, there's no reason why you would not have that, to leave an extra round not available in your firearm just didn't seem to make sense. >> and you have had an opportunity to be with mr. zimmerman when he was at the firing range? >> often. >> what hand does he shoot his firearm with? >> he shoots right-handed, i believe. but if i remember correctly, he's left-handed when he writes. >> but his firearm shoots -- first of all, when you hold a firearm, obviously do you use two hands if you can? and if so, which dominant hand would you use? >> well the hand that squeezes the trigger would be the dominate. hand and i believe he was right-handed when he fired his firearm. so the right hand would be holding the firearm and the
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right index finger would pull the trigger. >> if there was evidence, and you may not be aware of it, of the gun being on his right side. what would be the normal process for removing the holster from the firearm to fire it? >> objection, speculation. >> sustained. >> do you know of any training which would suggest sort of the cross body presentation going across to one side and bringing it out rather than going up and out. >> yes. >> objection. >> what's the objection? >> relevance. >> that's sustained. >> did you have discussions with mr. zimmerman as who how and where to maintain his firearm in a concealed way? >> my discussions with him for anything firearm related like that was, do what is comfortable, do what feels