right index finger would pull the trigger. >> if there was evidence, and you may not be aware of it, of the gun being on his right side. what would be the normal process for removing the holster from the firearm to fire it? >> objection, speculation. >> sustained. >> do you know of any training which would suggest sort of the cross body presentation going across to one side and bringing it out rather than going up and out. >> yes. >> objection. >> what's the objection? >> relevance. >> that's sustained. >> did you have discussions with mr. zimmerman as who how and where to maintain his firearm in a concealed way? >> my discussions with him for anything firearm related like that was, do what is comfortable, do what feels most

natural. because if a stressful situation is thrust upon you, you'll always go back to what feels natural and what you've trained with. >> did you feel it was important in your discussions with mr. zimmerman that he have consistency in how he handleale his firearm? >> absolutely. >> can you recall any time where you saw mr. zimmerman use his left hand as his dominant hand for shooting a firearm? >> yes, sir. >> will you tell us about that? >> we practiced that, if you're unable to shoot with your come in fa -- dominant hand, use the other hand. in case your dominant hand gets broken in some kind of event,

you may need to use your alternate hand for that reason. >> and that would be an alternative method of using the firearm? >> whatever hand can get to the firearm, that's the one you would use. >> and as you have testified before, you have known mr. zimmerman for how long? >> at least five years. >> and i believe that your wife had met him first? >> she did. >> through work? >> she did. >> have you had an opportunity then to interact with mr. zimmerman over the past five years? >> often. >> i think you testified that he's your best friend, correct? >> yes. >> have you heard his voice then in different varying situations or experiences? >> i have. >> and just an overview of sort of the different types of voice, conversational, laughing, whatever it might be as sort of the spectrum of what you have heard mr. zimmerman and his voice sound like? >> quite a bit, quite wide in

the spectrum. >> can you give us any examples? >> anywhere from the casual conversation to the hysterical laugh, to perhaps shouts over long distance, if someone's down range at the shooting range or someone is at the other side of the store and yelling to each other. but perhaps not what i had heard on the 911 tapes. >> let's talk about that for a minute. if i might play for you a tape, i believe it's 158, am i getting that right? yes, may i play that exhibit at this point? i'm going to play an exhibit for you which i think you referenced as the 911 call and ask first that we listen through it throughout, if you need to hear it a second time, let me know, if you need me to go back and will to a portion, let me know. i'm going to play it straight

through one time. >> what service do you need, police, fire, medical? >> maybe both, i'm not sure, i hear someone screaming outside. >> what's the address that they're at? >> 123 blachb. >> and is it a male or a female? >> it sounds like a male? >> and you don't know why? >> i don't know why. i think they're yelling help, but i don't know. >> does he look hurt to you? >> i can't see him. i don't want to go out there, i don't know what it's going on. >> so you think he's yelling help? >> yes. >> all right, what are y what i >> i just heard gunshots. >> any relevance of the rest of the tape as far as your ability

to hear george's voice? >> no, sir. >> let me focus on what we have heard, and tell the jury first of all if you have an opinion and as to whose voice we have in the background. not wh not -- do you have an opinion whose voice that is? >> i thought it was george. >> tell me why you think that. >> just the tone, just the volume and the tone of what i was hearing was something that -- because i talk to him probably as much on the phone or i had before this incidents as i did in person. so hearing his voice over a recording is something that your tone is a little different and it just sounds a little different over the phone and it just sounded like george. >> might i have a moment, your honor? >> you may.

>> i have a question or two. can you explain for the jury your understanding of double action versus single action guns? >> of course. a firearm that has double action requires the trigger in the hand to do two separate things, two separate motions, one is as you're squeezing the trigger, the hammer that was in front, it was forward and then it has to come back, then it comes forward. a single action means the hammer mechanism is back and one as you squeeze the trigger, it does one action, which is single. there's some automatic handguns that are single action or -- i'm sorry, double action only to where internally, the hammer is internal, so you really can't see the hammer coming back, but

both functions are done in a double action capacity with those handguns. >> and as a cal tech 9 the type of firearm where it can only be double action. >> it makes the extra trigger squeeze even harder and it's more of a firm squeeze, making it less likely to go off by accident. >> and is that one of the safety features of that gun. >> it's its greatest safety feature. >> thank you. >> any cross? >> good morning, mr. osterman. >> good morning, sir. >> i think we briefly talked about the book last time, you wrote a book along with your wife. >> that's correct. >> how many books have been sold so far. >> i'm not sure, tate publishing would probably know the best. >> but whatever money has been obtained so far, you have set it

aside for the defendant george zimmerman? >> correct. >> you were asked at the very end i guess about the knowledge of the gun that you suggested to mr. zimmerman, correct, to the defendant? >> yes. >> do you know what the trigger pull is on that gun? >> the pounds per square inch? >> yes. >> i don't know. >> do you think a firearm expert would be better to explain the mechanics of that firearm? >> that's correct. >> but you did say that you did have discussions with the defendant, mr. zimmerman, regarding what type of gun he should have and i think you taught him how to shoot is my recollection. >> he had been shooting at a range, his father was career military so i was not his first time going into the shooting range? >> but you made him a better shooter? >> i hope so. >> but you mentioned in terms of discussions with him in terms of

the firearm, what to get? >> yes, sir. >> he never con suggesulted wit about the type of holster? >> yes. >> and it was an internal holster? >> yes. and an internal means you can hide it inside your waistband, versus the kind that the police have, is that the difference? >> correct. >> so it would be hard to see, internally, people would have a hard time seeing it? >> even without a jacket, it would be difficult to see. >> okay. >> and if it was dark, it would be even harder to see, correct? >> i would agree. >> okay. >> and you were talking about techniques in terms of shooting the gun and all that in terms of shooting, i gathered, when you were shooting with him, when you were shooting at a target, you shoot to aim to kill. >> you aim center mast.

>> so center -- you keep shooting until the threat is gone, correct? >> it's not so much if the person is still alive, it's until the threat is neutralized. >> you would never holster your gun if the person was still alive and still a threat to you? >> i would disagree with that. >> you would? >> my thought would be let's say someone becauwas a threat to meh a knife or a firearm, even if they had the knife in their hand but they surrendered and started following my instructions, i would consider them neutralized. >> other than in that scenario, if they're knew -- >> you would holster the gun if the person had a firearm still? >> i have enough confidence to be able to retrieve it

afterwards. >> if someone had a firearm and they're going for the gun, you would holster your gun? >> not if they're going after my gun. >> if you believe they have a gun, or they have some type of weapon? >> if their hands are free? >> you can't see their hands? >> i would keep the firearm out. >> you would keep the firearm pointed at the person, right? >> probably. >> and/or shoot because you thought it was a threat? >> you would only shoot if you felt the actual threat of a firearm. >> the firearm pointing your direction, you would fire again until it's neutralize. >> if you felt the person had some kind of weapon, you would not holster your gun? >> it would depeppend on the ty of weapon. >> you can't tell what type of weapon they have, if you believe they have a weapon and they're a threat to you, would you holster your gun? >> i'm a person that would give police commands and give that

kind of commanding presence and if someone's not obeying the commands right on the heels of a -- that may be what i would do with the training i have had. >> yes, sir. >> and you talked about the gun in terms of how many rounds, i guess the bullets is actually referred to as a round and the bullet is what comes out of a gun, right? >> that's the distinction, correct. >> but you're saying you would fully load and have one in the chamber already? >> always. there's no reason not to. >> you're saying that that's per policy, you're talking about police officers? >> police officer policy in every department i have ever worked with. >> there is a distinction, you're not telling every citizen, when they get a permit, they're told automatically that they have to have a gun in the chamber. you're talking about police

officers, right? >> i agree. >> now you're talking about in terms of scenarios that you discussed with the defendant. >> yes. >> you were asked about that. if the person, if you shot at somebody, right, and you didn't realize whether you had shot them or not, and the person said give up, what would you do if they still were a threat to you? >> if they still were a threat? >> yeah, world you shoot them then? >> could you define what the threat might be? >> i'm talking about the scenarios that you discussed with the defendant. >> let's say someone lays down on the ground and follows your commands, you tell them to freeze, get down on their knees, lay down on the ground, they're not a threat at that point. at that point i would probably try to restrain them. >> so you discussed with him in terms of restraining someone or getting them under control, correct? >> if we did, it was something -- i wouldn't have remembered the specifics of it.

he would not have needed to know how to arrest somebody or how to restrain someone. it was basically if someone is a threat to yourself or to someone in the general public, you keep the firearm out if they're an active threat. >> that cal tech gun that we talked got, when you fired it, you intend that bullet to go out of the gun, right out of the barrel, it's not like in the movies where you kind of squeeze the trigger a little bit, when you squeeze 're intending for that bullet to go out, correct? >> correct. >> making sure the record's clear, you're not saying that mr. zimmerman was a law enforcement officer? >> no. >> unlike you, obviously, there's a difference, right? >> yes, 100%. >> a big difference? >> i agree. >> in terms of what police officers can do and what a citizen can do? >> the authority is much dimple, correct.

>> i'm assuming in terms of the scenarios you discussed with him, if you're confronting a person, and you're saying they're giving up, they're backing up, you don't shoot them do you? >> no. >> you mentioned about left-handed and right-handed, did you say that he had shot th understanding that correctly? >> could he pull the trigger and hilt a target? >> it's -- he could shoot the gun and hilt the target with his left hand? >> left or right handed. >> but he was better right-handed than left-handed, would that be pair? >> i thought so.

>> if i could have a moment, your honor. thank you, sir, i have nothing further. >> no further questions. >> any redirect? >> yes, your honor. >> just so we're clear with the authority of police officers and citizens, in order for a gun to be available for self-defense, it has to be ready to fire, correct? >> always. i would highly recommend that. >> so if you were asked by anybody including mr. zimmerman how to keep a gun so that it, if necessary, is available for self-defense, what would you tell them about chambering a

round or not. >> putting a round in the chamber and what is called topping off the magazine, because the magazine is where the bullets are. as you put that into an automatic handgun, you take that off and it goes into the chamber. i would recommend putting one more bullet into the magazine, it's always better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. >> and that advice goes for regular citizens as for law enforcement, correct? >> my wife has a concealed permit and i instruct her the same way. >> when you say training for firearms includes focusing your center of mass, what does that mean? >> firearms at the range, to shoot firearms at a target, at a paper target is difficult, it's almost like a golf swing where you need to do many things correctly. >> we're going to continue to listen to the testimony by mark

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we're back with your coverage of the george zimmer marine trizimmerman trial. and the man who calls himself zimmerman's best friend continues to talk about concealed firearms. why so much concentration, why so much focus on this now. >> the gun is very important and the manner in which his holstered is very important. and mark o'mara is discussing demonstrating the internal holster, this is a gun that was concealed within george zimmer

m zimmerman and my question in this trial is whether trayvon martin would have been able to see it. and now they're discussing the training that -- which is exactly how zimmerman had the gun on the day of the shooting. >> they're excusing mr. osterman. the 911 call was played in court. questions about who was screaming for help that night. from what you have seen and heard so far, lisa, does anyone have a better argument than the other about whether it was george zimmerman or trayvon martin? >> i think it's impossible for the jury to decide which camp the trayvon martin family members who say it's definitely trayvon martin, or the george zimmerman camp who says it's george zimmerman. which voice is on the tape i don't know how they can sort that out riling now. or they may say since the

screaming stops when the bullet was fired, that perhaps it was trayvon martin because he was shot. and the defense may contend that george zimmerman had no reason to continue screaming at that time. >> i want to go outside to mps's craig melvin and craig, let's take a look ahead because there's been a lot of speculation about whether trayvon martin's dad might take the stand today. >> mark o'mara said that at some time he plans to call the father of trayvon martin. the state decided not to call tracy martin. they did call trayvon martin's mother. right -- before the trial, it was tracy martin who said that

doesn't sound likes my son's voice. fast forward of course a few months, tracy martin said, yeah, it is, but make no mistakes about it, he did not say immediately that it was his son's voice. that of course is going to be the key issue that the defense brings up. we should note here that the four witnesses who have been called so far, the defense has played that 911 call for each witness, for every single witness. >> thank you very much, craig, this fifth witness is jerry russo, she worked with george sti zimmerman. let's go back to the trial. >> during the year that you weren't working there, would you keep in touch with george, mr. zimmerman? >> yes, we did keep in touch?

>> did you know his wife as well? >> i did not know her personally, no. >> yet you kept in touch with george zimmerman even during this year that you with respect working there? >> yes. >> when you came back, how often would you see him on a weekly basis? >> i would say several times a week, it varied, but quite often. >> so you had an opportunity to interact with him on a daily basis? >> yes. >> hear his voice? >> yes. >> could you tell us, we're using the terms a spectrum of different voices, anything from a conversational tone, yelling, laughing, you sort of tell us to the extent that you heard him speak in different ways. tell us about that. >> normal conversation, personal

conversation, work conversation, i have heard him speak in english, i have heard him speak in spanish. >> have you heard him laughing and yelling? >> i have heard him laughing, not yelling. >> and my understanding is, of course you know why we're here, the event that happened on november 26 of 2012? >> yes. >> and did you speak to him just after that event? >> it wasn't just after that event, but it was sometime in the year after that, i couldn't be exactly sure. >> okay, do you recall if you can how far after the event of the shooting that you spoke with him? >> my best estimate would be a couple of months before he returned to seminole county. >> that's when he was out of seminole county before you came

back again? >> yes. >> have you had an opportunity to listen to what we were calling the lauer 911 call tape? >> yes. >> i'm going to play it for you, and let me know if you have an opinion as to whose voice it is. >> yes. just a moment, your honor. i'm going to play it one time straight through. if you want me to play it a second time let me know, and if you wait a minunt me to go back particular portion of it, let me know. >> 911, do you need police, fire or medical? >> maybe both, i'm not sure. there's someone screaming outside. >> okay, what's the address that

they're near? >> 121123 blain erke lane. >> is this in sanford? >> yes. >> and is it a male or female? >> it sounds like a male. >> and you don't know why? >> i don't know why. i think they're yelling help, but i don't know. >> does he look hurt? >> i can't see him and i don't want to go out there, i don't know what's going on. >> you think he's yelling help. >> yes. >> what is you -- >> i just heard gunshots. >> have you heard that tape before? >> yes. >> tell me how many times or when or the circumstances? >> i have heard it less than half a dozen times and mostly on the tv news, the first time i heard it was on the news. >> okay. >> and were you able -- first of

all, do you have an opinion as to whose voice that is? >> yes. >> and whose voice is that? and let me premise it with this, we know the person in the foreground is lauer, the person who called the 911 operator. could you hear the person or the noise in the back ground? >> yes, i could. >> can you identify who's yelling in the background? >> george's. >> and how do you know that? >> i recognize his voice, i have heard him speak many times, i have no doubt in my mind, that's his voice. >> you said you heard the tape many times, does that mean listening to it on tv? >> yes. >> were you able to identify mr. zimmerman's voice during the very first time you listened to it? >> yes, my immediate reaction was, that's george's voice? >> was anyone there prompting you in any way to identify the voice as one particular person over another? >> no. >> emphasizing just how

important it is to convince the jury, whose voice was on that na 911 call, in this case jerry russo who talked to him on a daily basis, saying she recognized the person calling for help, she recognized the voice as george zimmerman. we're going to take a quick break, we'll be right back. or 2 aleve for all day relief. [ male announcer ] that's handy. ♪

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shortly after the shooting, correct? >> objection that calls for speculation. >> your honor -- >> it would be sustained unless she knows. >> do you know -- i don't know how to ask without asking, so i will. did you know where mr. zimmerman was just after the shooting? >> i didn't know his exact location, but i knew he was not in the state of florida. >> you knew that he had to leave the state? >> yes. >> and at first there was police investigation, correct? >> i believe so, yes, there was a shooting. >> and that he was not charged with a crime immediately, was he? >> judge, i object to that, again, unless she has that information. i ask that he rephrase the question. >> i'll rephrase it. do you know how long it was before charges were fired against him? >> i believe it was a couple of months. >> so you know he was not charged initially by police,

correct? >> correct. >> and he wasn't challenged until the fourth circuit came down from jacksonville and charged him? >> objection. >> sustained. >> i don't know exactly who charged him, but i know he was charged. >> do you know whether the 18th judicial circuit, this circuit charged him? >> i believe there was a special prosecutor involved. >> you were asked when the first time was. question, i think he asked you the question, didn't you really want it to be george? weren't you hopeful that it was george zimmerman screaming and what was your answer? >> i just immediately recognized it as george's voice. there was no hoping it was one person or the other. >> and you understand that you're under oath as you sit here today, correct? >> yes, i do. >> is your friendship with mr. zimmerman any hopes you may have

as to the outcome of this case, is that affecting your testimony here today? >> absolutely not. >> if you -- if it was your opinion that it was not george zimmerman's voice on the tape, would you testify to that as well? >> yes i would. >> thank you, nothing further. >> thank you. may ms. russo be excused? >> yes, your honor. >> you're excused. call your next witness. >> let me bring back legal annian ammist lease a bloom. if you get more people saying they recognize the -- >> they can't put on family and friends to say george zimmerman is a great guy, i think he's innocent, that would be improper. so instead, they're putting on the family and friends to listen

to the 911 call to say yes, that's george. and as background information they can say i'm a good friend of george zimmerman's. i think that's what's going on here. >> how do you think the defense is doing so far? >> it's very slow. i based on the friends of george zimmerman who came in and said that that was him on the 911 call. i think the prosecution by the way just made a very good point on cross-examination that we haven't haireard from any of th witnesses testifying about the 911 call. saying you knew george zimmer map's voice but you didn't know trayvon martin's voice. the ideal witness would be one who knows both of those voices who could be completely impartial. but we don't have a witness like that in this trial. >> lisa, thank you, be back with the next witness after this. but one dark stormy evening... there were two things i could tell:

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the sixth defense witness is on the stand, her name is leeanne benjamin. let's listen. >> i took more interest in him then too. >> uh-huh. >> because of that. he seemed to have a very keen interest in business and how to start one up. >> okay. and then did that friendship progress, are we now talking about the 2002, 3, 4 period of time? >> yes, it did. and we did things more socially. we would go out to lunch or to dinner. and about that time, a friend, a mutual friend was interested in getting into politics. in the city of lake mary and my

husband and i were helping him on his campaign. and mr. zimmerman was also interested in the political aspects and then we served on the campaign together. >> so is that sort of another connection that you and your husband and george zimmerman shelbie zimmerman had? >> yes. >> and is that your relationship over the last few years? >> the relationship for the last few years has been a little more intermittent, but when you have a good friend and you don't get to see them constantly, i think everyone has relationships like that where you don't talk more a while, but when you see each other, it's like you pick up where you left off. and it was very comfortable. my dad moved in with us and was

ill and in the hospital a lot. >> did that take then a lot of your focus away from friendships and focused on your dad? >> yes. >> did the friendship then sort of re-emerge or come back once this event happened with mr. zimmerman? >> actually before. >> okay. >> my husband and i recognized that mr. zimmerman had a strong interest in business. and with his age at the time, we encouraged him to potentially go to college. we wanted him to consider that. because which, at least i felt, there would be time later to do a business. so when i learned that he was interested in school and going back to school, then that -- the friendship picked up more, again

then. >> is that when he had gone to seminole state college and was in legal studies? >> yes. >> did you encourage that sort of maneuver towards education? >> yes. and my background before real estate was in teaching. so education is a love that i have and i did a lot of volunteer work with respect to that. and i realized that george was tutoring some young children and i encouraged that and i was very proud of him for that. >> okay. >> and leading us up to sort of what happened that brings us all here today, you knew what happened with mr. zimmerman being involved in the shooting?

>> i do now. but i didn't at the time. i did not hear about it or notice the news because my dad was having very difficult time medically. and i was spending a lot of time with him. so i was not paying attention. >> okay. >> a lot. >> at some point along the way between february 26 and today, though, you became aware of what mr. zimmerman was going through with his second-degree murder charges here? >> yes. he called me and we spoke on the telephone for quite some time. i was not aware when he had called me that the event had happened. and i was not aware of any of the conditions or surroundings. so when we spoke on the phone, i spoke to him as my friend.

and we just talked. >> okay. >> and do you recall approximately when that first conversation occurred? >> well -- >> and i'll premise it with this, the fact that there's a question, doesn't mean there has to be an answer. >> i don't know. >> if you can give us the year, the season -- >> it was within a couple of weeks. >> after the event? >> after the event. he had tried to call me before that and i said please excuse me, but i have been taking care of my dad, so i couldn't talk. he tried and then we finally did get to talk. >> and at some point then, did the friendship sort of re-emerge then because of what mr. zimmerman was going through?

>> yes. >> and i know from other sources that you have helped mr. zimmerman out generally, is that correct? >> yes, that's correct. >> explain to the jury about that. >> well, it was very important to me to offer my support to him. and i wanted to do what i could to help him. mostly we just talked. >> uh-huh. >> did you -- have you and your husband helped him out financially? >> yes. >> and explain to the jury about that. >> my husband noticed his website and donated some money. we have on occasion taken them some food and my husband -- >> and another friend of george

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. and we now have the fourth witness identifying george zimmerman on the 911 call. it will be up to the jury to decide if they can decide on this critical piece of evidence. let's continue to listen. >> good morning, ma'am. >> good morning. >> you and your husband have contributed, i believe $2,500 on behalf of the defendant, george zimmerman, correct? >> that's correct.

>> and then i think there was some additional money that was provided to him, i think 5$500 r $400 and now you have mentioned clothes, et cetera, is that correct? >> i don't know about the amount. my husband -- >> deals with that? >> deal with that. >> and your husband's name is john donnelly, is that correct? >> yes, that's correct. >> but you acknowledge that you and your husband have contributed to the defense fund, correct? >> yes, that's correct. >> now if i understand you correctly, there was a period of time that when he was younger, the defendant george zimmerman, you were close to him in terms of a business, and there was a period of time that your dad was sick so you focused on that, correct? >> and then you got back involved with him -- >> no, before, several months prior. >> this happened in february,

you're thinking december? >> yes. >> december of 2011? >> yes. but for a period of years you were keeping up with him and then you got -- >> we were talking, we just didn't get together a lot. >> okay. >> and you mentioned the 911 call? >> yes. >> the first time it was on the news, were you familiar with what had happened? >> yes, i believe so, but i didn't hear it right away. >> so you waited a few months, do you think? >> this happened in february of 2012, february 26th. >> when i realized what had happened, because of prior jury experience, i tried not to watch or listen or read about it. >> so you heard about the

shooting, you heard about mr. zimmerman being charged then you listened to it on the radio or was there a recording played? or how did you listen to it? >> i think the first time i heard it, it was on the. >> was it like this year, 2013 or was it last year, 2012? >> you know, i don't really know. >> okay. >> i know you gave your deposition in may of this year, do you think it was before your deposition? >> oh, yes. >> so it was sometime -- >> yes. -- before the deposition? >> but it could have been this year sometime? >> it was probably this year sometime, but i'm thinking i may have heard it late last year, i just can't remember. >> that's fine. and the occasion, was it the news or was a separate recording played for you? >> i don't really know. >> okay. >> i'm thinking the situation was that the tv was on in the

background and i was in the kitchen. >> sure. okay. and did you hear the news? was there a story about the george zimmerman case and then they played a recording or do you recall the situation, the circumstances on you hearing it? >> i don't recall. >> okay. >> and if you don't remember something, as mr. o'mara said, it's perfectly all right to say you don't recall. we're just trying to make sure the jury understands the circumstances. >> it was -- >> on tv? >> on tv. probably related to the news. >> and you were watching tv and it just happened that you heard it? >> yes. >> my point i guess in establishing the context in which you heard it, it wasn't just played out of the blue recording, there was some impact or something to it, right? >> yes. >> so it was the george zimmerman case?

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without walking all over your budget. he didn't tell us it would do this. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. right now, get whole-home installation for just 37 bucks. . hi, everybody, good morning, i'm thomas roberts, topping our agenda, it is the first full day of zimmerman's attorneys presenting their case. the trial began with sondra and then her husband mark osterman taking the witness stand. this couple calling themselves george zimmerman's best friends. they wrote a book about the case. the defense asked them and other zimmerman friends one of the key question in this trial, whose voice was it screaming for help on that 911 tape?

>> so it's your opinion that it was george zimmerman screaming for help? >> absolutely, yes. >> do you have an opinion as to whose voice that is? >> i thought it was george. >> can you identify whose voice that was yelling in the background? >> george's. >> how do you know that? >> i recognized his voice. >> msnbc's craig melvin joins us live from the courthouse. what can tell you us about the docket for the rest of today? >> the witness on the stand, leeann benjamin just testified on the stand that she and her husband at one point donated to the website also took food to he and his wife, also bought clothes for the trial and encouraged him to go back to college in general. what's been most interesting today, thomas, and you j