just great. i wish her the best with the book. >> if it is too early, what time really is it? >> it's time for "morning joe." coming up next, it's chuck todd and "the daily rundown." it's wednesday, july 10th, 2013. this is "the daily rundown." it's day 22 of the george zimmerman trial in stanford, florida, where the defense team appears to be winding down their case. the jury could be taking this case as early as tomorrow. you're looking at live pictures where any moment judge deborah nelson is expected to issue decisions. one is whether to allow jurors to see that computer animation we were telling you about yesterday which apparently depict's zimmerman's version of events. the second is whether to allow jurors to see the 17-year-old martin's text messages that purportedly discuss fighting. the court is hearing a holding

on a potential sequestration violation by defense witness john donnelly. donnelly may have violated the judges order that all witnesses except members of the victim's family be excluded from the courtroom. we've got beten you caught up. joining me now, msnbc analyst lisa bloom who's in new york. craig, what is the status right now in that courtroom? >> right now, a familiar sight about this time of morning. there is another side bar going on. the attorneys for the state, the attorneys for the defense are gathered there. you can see zimmerman actually doing something we haven't seen a lot of, doing some smiling, doing some laughing with another member of the defense team at the table there. as you indicated, arguably, the most exciting part of court yesterday happened after the jury left the room. 13 1/2 hours. that's how long court went yesterday.

it was hands down the longest day of court so far. last night, at one point, judge nelson had to actually extend george zimmerman's curfew. he is supposed to be in the house by 10:00. she ended up extending his curfew by 30 minutes. we expect, we use the word here expect, because over the past few days, we've been thrown a number of curveballs as well. we expect she is going to decide on a number of things. first being that animation. they spent a great deal of time last night talking about this animation. >> let me stop you there. i want to throw to some highlights of what this back and forth was and let's discuss it on the other end with you and lisa. here it is. >> if he's going to swing at me with his right hand, if i turn this way somehow, it might come across so yeah, so yes, it could

be. what we heard is they use it for the movies. great. this is a murder trial. this isn't casablanca. we're not talking about -- this isn't ironman. there's one -- it's one thing to say i'm going to strap suits on people and create a complete work of fiction. >> -- physically able to keep up this pace much longer. it's 10:00 at night. we started this morning. we've had full days every day. weekends, depositions at night. >> craig, obviously some frustration. the defense team seems to feel they're being rushed along. >> here's what the camera did not show you. last night at one point, attorney for the state john guy demanded an apology from don west. don west during the proceedings

last night at one point the state was withholding evidence. the judge leaves. west goes over to the table. he gets between mark o'mara and says, you should apologize for that. he raises his voice and says no, i'm not apologizing. sheriff deputies come over and kindly ask the attorneys to leave court. yeah, it was -- to say that emotions ran high last night might be a bit of an understatement. part of the problem with that animation, chuck todd, it was revealed last night that john good, and you may remember john good, he was one of the neighbors at the condo complex who testified trayvon martin was on top. it was revealed the guy who made the animation relied heavily on john good's testimony. judge else nelson said john goow

did you even talk to john good, he was supposed to be sequestered. >> interesting. let's talk about what happened yesterday. that the jury saw. how did this -- how did the defense do yesterday as they were trying to come up with their own explanation of what they found based on forensic evidence? >> yesterday was definitely the best day for the defense. dr. vincent di maio was clearly their best witness. he's friendly. he's ameable. he takes complex medical terms and translates them into english so everybody can understand. he's just a charming older gentleman. contentwise he said essentially george zimmerman's story is consistent with the medical and scientific testimony and the prosecution didn't get monuch o of him. >> this back and forth is taking place outside of what the jury is hearing. clearly this animal, the

defense, it's very important to them. >> well, it's important to then because it brings the whole case together. i think a lot of people have asked the question , you know, how is some of this story physically possible. help said he was down. he was being punched. how could trayvon martin reached for the gun? is it consistent with the stories zimmerman gave to the police? the defense wants to put all that together by way of animation. animations are common in court although more so in criivil cas than criminal cases. >> defense gave the indication they thought they could wrap it up told, so how many more witness, do we expect? >> good question. yesterday, and mark o'mara indicated to the court that the last witness that he called, the woman who was another neighbor of -- another neighbor of george zimmerman's, he indicated that was going to be his last

witness. based on the hearings, we're now hearing that the defense may call, and, again, may, may call, at least one, maybe even two other witnesses. but, again, a lot of this hinges on what judge nelson decides with regard, to the animation, with regards to the text messages and also with regards to john donnelly's testimony. john donnelly, we should note here, the issue with john donnelly is that apparently, and we we've got a picture of him in court on june 25th, that would be before he testified. you'll recall that the witnesses according to judge nelson were not supposed to be in court. so she's also said at some point she's going to be taking up the issue with donnelly's testimony. >> craig melvin, lisa bloom. i want to try to get an update on what's going on in egypt. we're keeping our eye on the courtroom. we expect some rulings from the

judge. yesterday was a big day in egypt. there's a new prime minister. he's trying to form a cabinet today, trying to bring some stability back to a country mired in mipolitical chaos it getting help from the gulf nations. that are offering $8 billion, with a "b," dollars in grants and loans. tuesday, president obama spoke to leaders of the uae and qatar with backed the morsi government. both conversations focused on opposing violence and supporting an inclusive political process. there's been some news this morning of an update on president morsi that he is safe but it doesn't say whether he is out of custody. >> reporter: we know very little about that, chuck. we know there are reports that the foreign minister said former

president mohamed morsi is not being charged with any crimes, that he's just being kept away at the moment. that being said, the pro-morsi supporters want him released. they want him reinstated as what they call the rightful leader of egypt. after he's reinstated, they'll be willing to talk to the opposition coalition who have, as you mentioned, gone on to form their cabinet. they're starting to form one at the moment. they announce a new interim prime minister. that was hazam el beblawi. they also appointed mohamed elbaradei who we know as the former nuclear negotiation chief for the iaea, as a vice president for foreign relations, hoping that his popularity abroad will actually help outside countries to feel that everything's on track in egypt.

as you mentioned, uae, the united arab emirates, and saudi arabia pledging nearly $8 billion. some of it in loans to the government here. showing that they support the egyptian people and the uprising against the muslim brotherhood and former president mohamed morsi. >> all right. in cairo for us this morning, thanks very much. of course yesterday jay carney, white house press secretary, continued to do verbal gymnas c gymnastics on the issue of whether or not it was a coup. would not -- admitting it's the elephant in the room but said the administration is still evaluating what it was, what has happened. it may be simply about then waiting to see how is morsi treated and when is he actually released. we're going to take a quick break. we'll be back with the latest from the zimmerman trial. also, we'll have my first readings of the morning.

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we'll take you right to the courtroom. the judge ruled the animation the defense put together cannot be used and shown to the jury. let's take you to the judge right now. >> is the defense ready to call your next witness? we'll have the jury come in. >> yes, your honor.

[ inaudible ] yes, i'm sorry. is the state ready for the jury to come in? all right. let's bring the jury in. >> want to bring back lisa bloom. the animation decision, how big a blow is that to them? >> not too big a blow. the animation can be used as a demonstrative exhibit. the judge ruled the objections are sustained to the cell phone messages. that's something the defense wanted in to show trayvon martin arguably was interested in fighting. george zimmerman was waived his right to testify. we all expected he would not testify. now that's been confirmed. >> what you're waiting now as the jury's been brought in. when you say that they're going to -- does this -- they're waiving the right to testify. one was assuming the animation would be serving as sort of the

place holder for zimmerman's own personal testimony. no animation, no testimony. they think they're still getting his version events out there? >> well, you're right. the prosecution has put in four or five different versions of zimmerman's story, including a videotaped re-enactment at the scene. i think the defense has made the calculation all along that the jury heard his story in his own words in a very calm straight forward manner. why put him on the stand and subject him to cross examination? >> i want to double-check you're still there and still listening. >> yes. >> so with the animation out of the way, what do we expect these final witnesses to be about? >> well, we should note here that the animation, the judge decided it can't be used as evidence. the animation can still be used as a demonstration perhaps for a witness, if another witness is called, but she's ruled that it can't be introduced in evidence. was fairly clear as saying it

could be used as demonstrative. it will be very interesting to see if or how the animation is used. again, you know, mark o'mara, attorney for the defense yesterday, indicated that the last witness, the neighbor he called yesterday, would be his last witness. they did proffer two additional witnesses last night. it remains to be seen at this point whether they call another witness. whether they recall any witnesses at this point as well. right now, the jury's being brought back into the courtroom. >> so what you're saying, you think it's possible they could rest right now. >> well, they could. they could wrap right now. the defense could end up calling another witness. it doesn't usually -- in the past hasn't taken this long for the jury to come in. it would seem as if judge nelson

just asked to call your next witness, they didn't say we're going to rest right now. >> what did you make of the frustration that sort of showed up on camera in that courtroom yesterday during the very long hours into the evening and that confrontation that craig was describing between the defense and the prosecution? >> listen, all of the attorneys have been working very long hours. yesterday till 10:00 p.m. even when they're only in the courtroom till 5:00 p.m., everybody goes back to their offices, taking depositions, very long days. if you get four hours of sleep, that's a lot. so of course nerves are fraying. the defense team has argued from the beginning they didn't get the proper discovery from the prosecution. so that made their time, you know, compact in terms of what they had to work with to prepare for this trial. i have to say i think all of the attorneys in this case are outstanding attorneys.

they're doing a very good job. i've criticized some of them throughout the trial here and there. it's very easy for me to sit here in the tv studio and do that. i know how hard it is to try a case. you have a lot of competing concerns going on. they're only human. of course their nerves are fraying. >> i can only imagine. craig, is there -- if the defense does rest pretty soon and does do so today, any chance we hear new witnesses from the prosecution or do we expect -- we expect this to end with witnesses today? >> again, a very good question. i wish i knew. that's the question everyone down here has been asking. the idea here, again, though, is -- judge nelson has indicated that once they -- once they wrap this up, they're going to move into closing arguments. she's given every indication she wants to move this along as quickly as possible. as i'm talking to you -- >> we're bringing in a witness here. his name's dennis root. that is the latest witness. we are trying to get a quick bio

of him. >> i can tell you this is one of the witnesses that was proffered. >> okay. well, let's -- listen in to the courtroom. >> good morning. >> state your name please. >> dennis root. >> could you spell your last name. >> r-o-o-t as in "tom." >> tell the jury if you would your occupation. >> currently self-employed a safety and law enforcement trainer and expert witness. >> it is that purpose that brings you here today, correct? >> yes. >> what i would like you to do, if you would, is to begin, i guess, at the beginning and tell us how you first got involved in law enforcement generally and we'll sort of walk you through the steps of your career. >> okay. in april of 2011 i retired after completing just over 22 hours of

law enforcement service. i began my law enforcement career with the city of rivera beach. i performed duties primarily for road patrol. i was also offered the opportunity to obtain an instructor's certification for defensive tactics which is the lead instructor's position for force related hand-to-hand-type training. i went to subsequent training courses for oc, which is pepper spray training and also impact weapons. i managed to become the lead instructor for defensive tickets with the city of revir ra beach while i was employed there. >> i know some of the terms having spoken to you before and my experience in this but i want to make sure the jury understands when we use terms like impact weapons. >> sure. >> if you could, as you go through it, i may interrupt you once or twice more along the way, but if you could advise the swr jury what you mean and the

science behind impact weapons. >> sure. for the impact weapons, we're talking about batons. anything from a side handle baton to what is commonly carry which is an expandible asp kind of baton. they range anything from wood bat be to metal baton. impact weapons is geared towards those weapon systems, designed specifically for blocking and striking purposes. >> are there particular ways to actually use those weapons as opposed to just striking somebody with it or how does a lay person know the basis for your training and how to use a weapon like that? >> for an impact weapon -- for all the weapon systems in law enforcement, there are basic -- what they call basic operator certification courses that are taught to law enforcement professionals. these courses are designed to deep them the laws surrounding the use of the weapons system. they're design to education them on how to carry, present and also utilize, whether it's

striking or blocking or some of the weapon systems and some of the techniques they teach can be used for takedowns and things like that. the idea behind the basic operator certification is to educate the operator on target areas, what you can expect injurywise from a variety of target areas. strikes to muscle mass versus connective tissue versus what we could call deadly force or final targets which would result in great bodily harm or death. so the education course, the basic operator course, is designed to educate the operator through a minimum of usually about a four hour class on how to properly utilize the weapon for defensive and offensive means. >> okay. i think you said you had gotten a level of proficiency in that that allowed you to train other officers. >> yes. i became an instructor. i eventually became an instructor trainer. after completing my career in law enforcement, i designed and implemented also an instructor level course that i've taught throughout the state of florida

and various other states in the united states where i now teach the instructor of the instructors. i do what they call a master level trainer where i do the instructors course so that the instructors can go out and teach other trainers. >> i'm going to try to keep this chronological and then identify what certificate fa i kas you've gotten along the way. you were speaking about your initial law enforcement career beginning with riviera beach. >> yes, sir. >> what else did you learn or what other proficiencies did you acquire during that work? >> while there, like i said, i became a defensive tactics instructor. i went to the required state course for gaining certification to teach open hand control techniques. striking, blocking, take downs, arm locks, things like that. i also became an instructor for pepper sprays. pepper pray, again, just similar to impact systems, has a basic operator certification course it i went to the trainer's course

to teach the basic course. that course involves proper deployment, target areas and so forth. a similar nature to what you do with the impact weapons. it's just a lower level on the force continuous that's evaluated by those using them or evaluating its use. my instructor's certifications while at the city of riviera beach were the initial instructor level courses. >> you had mentioned a term that i presume is going to come up in your future testimony here today so i want to ask you to explain it to the jury. a concept of a force continuum. does that -- is that -- explain to the jury what that is. >> it's basically -- a force continuum is a systemic approach to the escalation and deescalation of force options. it's basically looking at an event and saying that all events start, for example, with somebody being present. so that would be one of the first things you would look for as you begin your evaluation. who was there, how many was there, so on and so forth. you evaluate each and every

level. and you have to break it down for both the aggressor and you have to break it down -- in law enforcement terms it's the aggressor or your subject and the officer. in civilian terms, it would be the aggressor and the defender. okay. and what you do is you look at the various levels of options that are available to that individual taking into consideration a wide variety of topics ranging from personal information, subject factors like their age, their height, their weight, things like that. moving through background, training, experience, weapon availability, environment considerations. all these things come into a force continuum which is a structured way of saying that if i were to do a, you would be permitted to do b. and it's a structured system that allows us to evaluate where the one person is on a force level in comparison to where the other person is permitted to be. what they really term to be

accepted to be at. >> is that then information you both learned as a law enforcement officer and now teach? >> yes. i started -- first time you take a force course, one the first topics they go over is the law and the force continuums because without a thorough understanding of how and when you can do something, there's no need to move any further into weapons systems and what you could utilize for that. so it's a really basic foundation that everything else comes from. and when you progress it through law enforcement, the options are quite different because there's so many things -- what i call the bat belt. police officer has gear wrapped around them from pepper spray, tasers, impact weapons, firearms. the average person doesn't. so the continuum even though it could be taken down and looked at through other perspective, legal means and so forth for an individual, the essence of the continuum remains the same. it's just the availability of options changes. >> and was this something --

what is this training begin? is this what you learn as a rookie they call it or a pleeb, somebody from the academy? >> the training on force begins in the police academy. it's one of the -- what they call high liability courses that an officer must demonstrate proficiency in in order to obtain or test to obtain their law enforcement certification. so it is one of the key base billi building blocks that starts in the police academy and never ends. law enforcement agencies everywhere require to maintain an ongoing level of training on all the various weapons systems as well as communications because that's also considered a component of use of force. all the things that a s thas th could utilize during their career, they have to demonstrate proficiency. that training never ends till they walk out of their career. >> about your work at riviera beach. you've talked about some of the certifications. if you would continue with those.

>> the other certifications i went to -- i was very into traffic. in riviera i became the basically the on shift traffic unit. we had a small shift and we didn't have an active traffic unit. i became involved with teaching dui as well. so one of my other certificate fa i kas, i became a -- certified with dui stops and things and actually created a training program for the city of riviera beach that was approved through the state attorney's office on how to conduct a dui investigation and how to properly document it throughout the entire dui process. >> how long were you with live year ra beach? >> total, about five years. >> and any other specialties or training focuses you had with riviera besides those you mentioned so far? >> only other things that really became certifications is while i was there i did attend conferences geered towards defensive tactics. when i took my first instructor

certification course in defensive tactics i kind of fell in love with the topic and knew right then and there that was something i wanted to do and specialize in for the rest of my career, if not longer. and i went and became a -- an instructor for various techniques like vascular restraints. a lot of people call them choke holds. they're not really choke holds. but for layman terms, the police apply choke holds, for lack of better terms. also in control points which is the pressure points on the human body. i became a certified instructor with that. i also became a certified instructor in -- at the time it was called ink pen knife defenses. what that was, the most common thing a police officer has on their person is an ink pen. when confronted with an adversary if you were itslizing your pen, it's a way to utilize the ink pen in defensive measures against somebody that may have a knife or other edged object and you are not able to transition to your firearm. it was techniques to utilize that to defend yourself.

>> now moving forward from li riviera beach. any other certifications that first sort of chapter of your career? >> no, that was pretty much it there. >> if you don't mind, i'm going to have something -- [ inaudible ] provided to us what we commonly know as a resume or cv documenting this information. >> yes. >> would it be helpful to have this available to you as you go through your testimony? >> it could. if there was something i didn't know. but it's my life so i'm pretty clear on it unless you want specific date or attendance of class then i would probably have to look at my cv for that. >> we'll keep it marked. if you need it to engage your memory, that's fine as well. let's move from riviera beach. where did you go after that? >> the next agency i was with for a very short period of time

was the jupiter police department where i was assigned, again, to road patrol duties. >> okay. how long were you there? >> that was just under a year. i was there just under a year. and during that time, i had the opportunity also to take on a lead role as a defensive tactics instructor. when i was recruited by the city of jupiter, i started and immediately began being presented with opportunities to bring the skills and things i had learned from riviera beach to the jupiter police department. i began training with some of their other lead trainers on defensive tactics techniques and various things dealing with defensive tactics. >> so in layman's terms then, defensive tactics, is -- how somebody would defend themselves against somebody else? >> it's fighting. layman's terms, it's fightinging. >> fighting in a way that men myselves injury to yourself? >> absolutely. the reason was initially termed defensive tactics is in law enforcement pretty much when you utilize force in response to another person's actions so it

became defensive in nature. even though there are taught offensive techniques. the whole goal in law enforcement was you defended yourself, you defended another person, you just didn't walk up and start a fight. that's where the term came from. but the reality of it is is you're teaching people how to defend themselves through fighting techniques. >> why such a short period of time at jupiter pd? >> when i started there -- in live year ra because it was a very active city, in riviera beach, i didn't spend any time on midnights. i actually was pretty much always on 3 to 11s, the afternoon shift where it was really busy. when i went to jupiter, they had a seniority basis and you had to be on midnights till you were there long enough that your seniority allowed you to leave that shift. unfortunately for me, i learned while i was there, i have, for lack of better words, a condition that doesn't allow my body clock to change so i couldn't adapt to midnights. i literally would sleep an hour and a half to three hours tops

in a day and it was affecting me. i went to the administration, told them about it. normally because you're on probation they would just terminate you because you can't perform the job the way they want it done. i was blessed that they extended me the opportunity to move immediately to a 4 to 12 shift which created a lot of strife in my career because there were a lot more senior people ahead of me that should have been give than position but the administration elected to offer it to me. and because of the conflict that it created, it just seemed like a better idea that other options were presented to me and i felt it would be a good idea to follow them. >> just to clear up any concerns anyone may have is was the short duration of your time with jupiter due to any disciplinary problems or any concerns or any performance evaluation issues? >> none whatsoever. >> then you went from jupiter to where? >> martin county sheriff's office. i took a position as a drill instructor with the juvenile offender training center there,

juvenile boot camp. i was under law enforcement special soimpervices and it was really unique opportunity to work with kids. >> what do you do during that part of your career? >> the time that i was assigned to the juvenile offending training center, i started as a drill instructor in the boot camp. and because of my background and experience, within a short period of time, i was asked to take over the training responsibilities for the program, where i helped develop training programs for ongoing training for new drill instructors and the current staff. eventually, i was given the responsibility of being the supervisor of the enforcement unit which is the equivalent of probation officers. when the young men come into the system, by the time they're there about six months, they're real released back into the community where they're monitored. it would be equated to similar as being a probation officer for a juvenile offender. i was promoted to the rank of sergeant and then ran that unit

till i went back to road patrol and pursued other opportunities for me within the sheriff's office. >> during the time you were with the sheriff's office, did you accomplish any other certifications or training, in particular areas of law enforcement focus? >> my focus -- i had the opportunity to experience just about everything a police officer can experience while with martin county. i was within their training unit. i was within their criminal investigations division as a detective. i was in the traffic unit. road patrol. i always served on the canine unit. and throughout my time, the entire process, i also was an ancillary instructor. where i would go and take on and done training classes for a variety of topics mostly dealing with force. i continued my education. i continued going to schools. i also became a master and -- first became a instructor then master instructor with taser international which is the taser

weapons, the stun guns. and then i started transitioning and teaching the instructor level courses for that. i also took over we i when i wa training, i was designated the use of force specialist in the agency. the information was always forwarded to training. my job was to look at it, evaluate it, see if there were violations of either policy or procedure or training standards. also i would try to take the experiences of the other deputies involved in various issues and see how we could turn them into training opportunities for the deputies that never experienced it but may benefit from the experience. so throughout the remaining portion of my career i dedicated most of my time to continuing my training and development of certifications in force related topics. i went, got my firearms instructor certification. i also became a tactical shotgun instructor. i continued on and became an

instructor/trainer with pepper sprays so i transitioned out to where i had the instructor class to where i could teach the instructor courses. i also took on responsibility at the local academy where i was a -- first started as an adjunct trainer teaching defensive tactics. i was lucky enough that my teacher and mentor was step down and provided me with the opportunity to step up to what they call the lead instructor's position, which is the person who coordinates and organizes the law enforcement and corrections academy's defensive tactics programs. in the process i also obtained my two-year degree in criminal justice which enabled me now to start teaching the instructor level classes for the college for, like, the defensive tactics. so i became the instruct they're taught the defensive tactics instructors course. >> you had mentioned a moment ago about this becoming a use of force specialist. is this something that teaches what we talked about a moment

before, which is this continuum of force and how and when to use force in a law enforcement situation? >> yes. as the designated use of force specialist for the agency, my job was to develop use of force training. i worked with fantastic instructors for firearms, defensive tactics. i was given the privilege of coordinating a lot of the training that took place. especially if it's due to force of any type. because i took it upon myself also to go and get schools for it to become a handcuffing instructor -- >> as the defense continues to try to establish credentials of this witness, we figure it's time we can sneak in a quick break. all this produce from walmart and secretly served it up in the heart of peach country. it's a fresh-over.

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witness. his testimony has been limited by the judge on motion from the prosecution to three topics. that george zimmerman was reasonable in his use of deadly force that night. that george zimmerman did not violate florida law, ie, he acted in self-defense. and that zimmerman acted with restraint before using deadly force against trayvon martin. he has not offered those opinions yet. he's still going through his background and qualifications. >> lisa, it seems though it's almost as if they want to treat george zimmerman as if he were de facto law enforcement. >> that's a great observation. i would assume when this gentleman testifies it's probably in police shootings, cases like that. >> it would be unusual to see somebody like him be a witness for a civilian. >> everything in this case is unusual, right, and the prosecution had said that george zimmerman was a wanna be cop and really that's not disputed. in fact, the defense has tried to turn that around and say, what's wrong with him wanting to be a police officer.

a lot of the witnesses in this case have been police officers and they act out of good motives and there's nothing wrong with that. here we have a police expert talking about george zimmerman's tactics that night. >> all right. let's go back to listening in and see when the testimony itself begins. >> making recommendations on how their policy and procedure should be written so it conforms both with what the manufacture requires for training programs but also what meets a lawful need given the use of a weapons system. i had the opportunity to be the person other individuals came to, as well as testified at grand juries about officer involved shootings. i testified -- i've spoken to other agencies and counseled other personnel on proper documentation as well as techniques for use of force. >> other certifications we haven't talked about that you've accomplished through your time with martin county, we've talked about some of the use of force

and the marparticular weapons system and you've talked about defensive tactics. any particular areas in your training you had with martin county? >> i'm kind of unique because every time i take on a position, i try and find an ininstructor' course for it because i'm of the mind-set if you learn to teach it you can perform it a little better. when i became a canine handler, ways very vested into the position. i became a canine team instructor. each and every weapons system we have, to a cubuton to -- being those little key ring things. those are little impact weapons, little batons. up to and including full length batons, knife defenses, handgun, long guns. i participated in the training of our agency for rifles. everything -- if it's a weapons system, i had the opportunity to provide training with it, and if it was a weapons system that i

was dedicated to, like vascular transfer, if it was impact oc taser, firearm, i went and became an instructor and eventually created -- i currently have four courses that i've created myself that i travel and teach as an instructor of the instructors. >> and aside from that specific to law enforcement, do you have any training or expertise in general physical combat, fighting or areas that aren't specifically law enforcement but still assist you in a presentation regarding use of force? >> i started martial arts training when i was about 13 years old and i became a semipro kick boxer. i was very lucky i got to participate in the '80s in the isk super fights. it was right here in orlando, it was my first super fight i was able to participate in. i've always had an interest and

involvement in physical combat. i grew up with two older brothers and i got beat up a lot by my two older brothers so it seemed a reasonable thing for me to do, to bring in that personal experience. in the process of my own personal experiences with fighting, martial arts, kick woxing, training, i was actually training with chris anderson and rico brocking on it who were at the time in the late '80s they held two, they were both championship fighters, boxers. i had the opportunity to learn from them when i was attending my kick boxing schools. i just continued on. currently, i'm involved with the martial arts organization and i've been given the privilege of developing and working with them in developing firearm s related to martial arts -- >> lisa, you wanted to clarify a couple of things you had just said about dennis root. >> let me clarify while he's still doing his background. those three topic, i just listed are what the defense wanted this

witness to testify to. the judge has actually ruled that he cannot testify on to those items that he was reasonable, that zimmerman was reasonable in his use of deadly force, that zimmerman did not violate florida law, and that he acted with restraint. the dchs wanted him to say that. the prosecution on jekted. the judge has limited him and said you cannot testify about those three topics. so we'll hear what he does have to say. >> the other thing about this, we're hearing more about -- and we've seen other witnesses talk about the different training that george zimmerman got or sought when it came to martial arts or mixed martial arts. how does that help his case? >> that was interesting. we heard from the gym owner and the personal train wear zimmerman trained three nights a week in mma, mixed martial arts grappling. the trainer said he would give him a 1 on a scale of 1 to 10. he wasn't a particularly good fighter. i think the defense wants to say this was not a skilled fighter. this was not the kind of guy who would start a fight or who would be the aggressor. >> we're going to sneak in one

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the defense says this could be their final day of calling witnesses and, right now, an expert witness named dennis root is on the stand. let's take a listen. >> i thought what i had done was considered to be objectively reasonable or not. what happened is a grand jury would call all of the witnesses in and i would come in and the state would ask for my opinion and i provide it to the grand jury what my opinion was based on my background, training and experience as to whether i thought what a, b and c was. was it objectively reasonable given the facts and circumstances known to bme or ws it unreasonable. >> on how many occasions do you have an opportunity to present such testimony to a grand jury? >> i believe it was six different times.

>> may i approach the witness for a moment, your honor? >> yes, you may. >> review with you what is marked as an exhibit. >> that's my curriculum vitae. >> in other cases you've been involved in is on there? >> yes. >> move to enter it into exhibit. >> no objection? >> correct. >> okay. defense exhibit rr will come into evidence as defense exhibit 24. >> regarding your testimony concerning your testimony at the grand jury, we have had a discussion about what you will and will not testify to here today. correct? >> yes. >> as far as your focus of the zimmerman case. so let me ask you in that regard how you and i first got together and how you became a witness in this case.

>> i actually reached out to mr. o'mara when i saw the case unfolding obviously like erchs every one else. i reached out to him because i thought i had a unique perspective as to coming to a reallistic conclusion on things. being able to proffer and look at things and just render my background training and experience to him to see if it helped. my experience has been i wanted to ensure -- the most common question, i reach out to a defense attorney as a police officer or a former police officer, and the truth is there are a lot of people that can do what i do -- there is plenty of experts available, and i reached

out to mr. o'mara because it was my belief that if i reviewed the material and felt that i could be of no assistance, i would not be -- i would not do anything to hinder the progression for anybody in this case whatsoever. but if it was something i felt i could help with, i went to one party, if it was an opportunity to be of assistance, i knew i would be able to do so so i reached out to him and to see if he had interest in using my services. >> okay. and that then began the process for you to work together with him on this case? >> yes. >> if you would, just advise the jury generally and if appropriate, but, more specifically, what you would want available to you for review in a case like this and then what you got in this particular case. >> of course, you can stay with us for continuing coverage of the george zimmerman trial. that will be coming up. we have a bunch of the daily rundown of the day in politics on the web today. we will have my first reads of

the day and the gaggle and in-depth of between. it's the show of shows on msnbc.com. we will see you tomorrow. coming up next, chris jansing will take over the george zimmerman coverage.

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good morning. i'm chris jansing. already this morning, two rulgs at the george zimmerman murder trial and both went down on the side of the prosecution. one keeps the defense animation from being used as evidence. the other prevents the jury from seeing text messages sent by trayvon martin on the night of his death. those rulings came this morning after a very late night. 13 hours in court yesterday and tempers flared. >> it's simply unfair for mr. zimmerman not to put on his defense because of the state's tactics, playing games bus!

lying to this court and now it's our fault. >> i would like the opportunity for him to apologize to me that i stood by silently with information that i did not have. >> i'm not getting into this. court is in recess. i will give my ruling in the morning. i'll see you at 8:00 in the morning. >> the judge walked out while the lawyers were still talking. msnbc craig melvin is smiling live outside the courthouse? sanford, florida. set the stage what is a pretty eventful late night and morning. >> interesting thing the cameras cut off before you saw john guy walk over to the table for the defense and apparently was demanding that don west apologize for offendering his honor. he suggesting that state was withholding some evidence. he demanded an jooi