schultz doing twitter again this week. >> one more time. >> we'll give you another chance. thank you very much. "morning joe," starts right now. ♪ this protest, this is a show of strength but it's also a show of solidarity with the family. because last night, what happened, was a complete disrespect to them and we want to show love and respect to them. >> it's unacceptable and if we don't speak up nobody is going to listen. >> we refuse to accept a declaration of open season on black and latino youth which is what this verdict in florida represents. >> i can't put into words the sadness, the emotion, the anger. i had to write my sister an e-mail to tell her that she's not safe in florida. >> good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it's monday, july 15th. with us on set we have msnbc

contributor mike barnicle, pulitzer-prize winning historian jon meacham, msnbc's thomas roberts and in washington pulitzer-prize winning editor for "the washington post" and msnbc contributor jonathan capehart. good to have you on board this morning. a lot to get to. al leiter is going to be on. you're excited. >> and andrew mccutchen. >> i'm glad you're here for that. we have a couple different stories to get to. i want your insight, mike barnicle and meacham, on snowden. we'll get to that in a moment. i'm wondering since we try to jam a lot of the big stories in the first block, is it okay if we don't mention the words harry reid, mitch mcconnell and nuclear option. >> absolutely. >> can we just -- >> that would be a thrilling start to the day, to any day. >> we'll leave it. we'll leave it. >> a trinity to avoid. >> there are a lot of layers to the george zimmerman verdict. so we'll begin there. the trial of george zimmerman came to a close saturday's not guilty verdict has renewed the nation's debate on race

relations among many other things. yesterday thousands of americans expressed their disappointment in the jury's decision. protesting the acquittal of the volunteer neighborhood watchman from new york to los angeles demonstrators took to the streets at times block traffic chanting no justice, no peace. back in florida the prosecution and defense spoke about the verdict and the impact race had on the case. >> i think that the things would have been different if george zimmerman was black for this reason, he never would have been charged with a crime. what happened was this became a focus for a civil rights event which again is a wonderful event to have, but they decided that george zimmerman would be the person who they were to blame and sort of use as the creation of a civil rights violation, none of which was born out by

the facts. >> we have to remember what the prosecutor said at the very end, if trayvon martin and the facts were reversed would have profiled and followed and pursued and killed unarmed george zimmerman what would the verdict have been? i think the problem that a lot of us are having with accepting this verdict is we know in our heart of hearts that trayvon martin would have been convicted. >> there are important questions, despite saturday's ruling of not guilty. zimmerman could face federal civil rights charges. last year the justice department opened an investigation into the death of trayvon martin. a d.o.j. spokesman says prosecutors are still examining the evidence. they stood aside for a while to let the state go through its process. joining us from miami, msnbc legal analyst and former federal

prosecutor kendall coffey joins the conversation. we'll start with you, sir. first of all your reaction to the verdict and also where you think this goes from here? >> well, the verdict, of course, created very strongly divided reactions because it was such a sense that george zimmerman did something very wrong when he got out of the car with that night with a gun looking for trayvon martin and yet in the somewhat cloudy, murky facts that followed of the fight the jury found a reasonable doubt concerning self-defense. where it goes from here, there could certainly be a civil suit a separate topic, but with respect to federal jurisdiction it's very limited. they can certainly do another prosecution, double jeopardy doesn't block that, but they've got to have a federal basis which i think would require evidence of a hate crime, racial motivation. has that been developed so far? very hard to say. >> mike barnicle, i'll let you take to kendall if you want, but

i want to know because i was watching the verdict and then i was on twitter and i had to close twitter. the reactions on both sides were so extreme and so ideologically down right and left that it made me sad for this country. >> well, with good reason. this is a very depressing weekend. race remains the great anchor around this country, dragging it down continually, forbidding it to prohibit it from moving forward as fast as we would all like to see it move forward. i am tired of hearing people talking about it's time to have a conversation about race. we've been saying this for three decades. we haven't had that conversation. but to mr. coffee, to one of the points you alluded to, obviously none of us here in the media were on the jury. we did not attend the trial. we are not familiar in depth with the facts that were presented at the trial. but on the surface it would appear to be that the jurors did

their duty. they had no other option, given the structures of the law in florida. perhaps the law ought to be changed. the law should be changed. did the jurors have much wiggle room? did they have an option to go to manslaughter? >> well, the reality with manslaughter, it still cannot be returned as a conviction if there's reasonable doubt of self-defense. florida's gun laws make self-defense much easier. you had the basic reality here there was a fight, a fatal shot and the only one who's alive to really describe the story is the one claiming self-defense. circumstantial case never easy to begin with. >> i think the biggest reaction has been the fact that this has to be jush shusly acceptable, we have to jush shusly all say okay. the family for 45 days asked for george zimmerman to be arrested, asked for the systematic process, we've waited over a year and ha to see this go through, we have the judicial

answer. socially it's unacceptable. and kendall has it right there, two people can keep a secret as long as one is dead. >> you mentioned -- it was depressing, a terrible weekend, that the verdict is unsettling for so pane people in this country and probably around the world. i'll tell you what's unsettling to me personally as a parent. i have three sons. not one of those sons that i have to tell listen, don't run when you see a cop, you know, don't establish eye contact with a cop. >> right. >> you know, watch out when you're here. watch out when you're there. i never had to do that. but if you're a black parent, you do that. you do that. it's part of -- >> all due respect, your three boys have hit the american trifecta of privilege. >> true. >> they are white, straight males. >> yeah. >> presumably. they have hit the trifecta of american privilege from there we go downhill. if you are an other in this

country, and that means if you are an lgbt, hispanic, black, a woman woman, right now we are fighting to prove why other is no the bad and why we are -- due the value of our american rights. trayvon's rights were obviously violated, stalked, followed presumed to be suspicious from the get-go by somebody who was the self-proclaimed watch commander of his neighborhood packing heat to go to the grocery store. >> isn't it jon meacham, the law that allowed him to do that and something that mayor bloomberg has a statement about which we'll get to lower in this block. the shoot first law and different attributes around that is what potentially led to a situation which led to what happened and led to the jury doing its job with not a surprising outcome if you look at the law in florida. >> this story is about race, it's about guns, it's about

judgment and it's about all of our responsibility in commenting on these things from is he higher than 35,000 feet. i think you started with your depression about the predictability of the reaction. we have a preexisting ideological machinery in the country now to which any details are put in and an automatic reaction comes out. and so that's just the way that it is. that's the reality of our current public dialog. but it's a complicated racial situation in the country today. barack hussein obama is the president of the united states. an unthinkable reality even 20 years ago. the nra, once a force for gun safety and hunting licensing basically, is an ideologically motivated absolute total warfare

institution that began its move toward absolutism during the riots and the racial unease of the 1960s and '70s. there are a lot of long-term issues that have to be confronted. >> when the shooting happened, the president felt compelled to step in and talk about the likeness of trayvon martin to the son he could have happened. yesterday the white house released a statement from the president reading this, the death of trayvon martin was a tragedy. not just for his family, or for any one community, but for america. i know this case has elicited strong passions and in the wake of the verdict i know those passions may be running even higher. but we are a nation of laws and a jury has spoken. i now ask every american to respect the call for calm reflection from two parents who lost their young son. and as we do, we should ask ourselves if we're doing all we can to widen the circle of compassion and understanding in our own communities. we should ask ourselves if we're doing all we can to stem the tide of gun violence that claims

too many lives across this country on a daily basis. we should ask ourselves, as individuals and as a society, how we can prevent future tragedies like this. as citizens, that's a job for all of us. that's the way to honor trayvon martin. jonathan capehart? >> i think what the president said was pitch perfect. you know, i guess unlike everyone around the table, i've been following and reporting on this story from almost the very beginning. i've read all the police reports. i've watched the re-enactments. i've, you know, listened to the jailhouse interviews, i read everything that came out voraciously because while, you know, i'm an african-american man, and this is very personal for me, it was also a fascinating story. how is it possible that an unarmed 17-year-old could be walking back home and not get there? and be killed and have that

person not be held accountable. what's so painful about this verdict, while i'm shocked by what the jury did, i'm not shocked by what the jury did. you know, criminal justice system worked the way it was supposed to. the law is the way it is. but, you know, barnicle, you talk about how you never have to talk to your sons about the rules. the rules that i've written about. don't run in public. don't rupp with anything in your hands. be polite to cops. always show your hands. be mindful you'll always be watched when you're younger. followed when you're older. those are all things we're talking about in terms of teenagers. but that's that never goes away. that's something i have to deal with as an african-american man right now. and the fact that george zimmerman could shoot an unarmed teenager, unarmed black man, makes me feel a little concerned and i've never had any problems

with the police, i've never been stopped, i've never been frisked, i've been pulled over a couple times for speeding. >> yeah. >> but, you know, it's -- it's heart wrenching. it's painful. and to all those people, mika, you know, my twitter feed blew up with all sorts of -- all sorts of rage from the left and from the right, but the e-mails that i've gotten on my work e-mail from people on the right has just been shocking, unsettling, and, you know, i'm still trying to wrap my mind around like what happened, where we are. >> the reactions on the right and left have been unbelievable to me. i think the conversation we're having today is constructive. the conversations i've seen happening on line from very well-known people are not. kendall coffey, this isn't an argument over what george zimmerman was a racist jerk or

anything else. it was a legal argument whether he acted within the law is that not correct, and legally, what's next, a look at the laws or civil action? >> well, and you're exactly right. even though there's this overriding sense, which i think the jury may have had, that george zimmerman did something wrong when he got out of the car armed looking for trayvon martin, the fact that he was very wrong even fatality wrong doesn't mean he was criminally wrong with respect to a self-defense claim and the reasonable doubt standard. i think in the next phase as we look at things, there could certainly be a civil lawsuit because remember, it's a much lesser standard and in a civil case, george zimmerman would still have stand your ground immunity claims to make, but he would have to get on the stand, either in deposition or the hearing itself, and have a lot of explaining to do and a lot of inconsistencies to address which never really happened in the

criminal trial. there's also possible federal jurisdiction but federal jurisdiction is limited. they're going to have to prove a hate crime to proceed federally. >> as kendall was saying about the civil suit where george zimmerman would now have to testify, that's what the d.o.j. is waiting for. that would be their pivot point where they could be from a guarded distance, taking a look at this to decide whether or not to interject into this because i think it will be a triple gut punch to the african-american community, to those that look at this as an injustice for our social contract in this country from the department of justice got involved and there was no justice, there wasn't some type of suitable outcome where people thought okay we're making a repair to the fracture of our social contract in this country. >> moving forward and developing as a society. >> mike mentioned and jonathan alluded to, mike has never had to tell his three boys how to act with the police. my kids are a little younger but i can pretty much tell you, i'm

never have to going to tell them never leave the house armed, going out looking for trouble. >> this guy wasn't even the police. >> he had a gun and i know the debate about the stand your ground laws, but doesn't this conversation raise an issue about whose ground. >> exactly. >> why was it george zimmerman's ground. >> you know what might be the largest element of all here, and i've been reminded of it the past three weeks, working on a long-term project that has taken me almost on a daily basis into a minority community, and i would have to tell you the belief any young black males have in the criminal justice system and the police, it's not -- it's gone. it's so wide. i don't know that it can ever be repaired in my lifetime certainly, but it's there. it's huge. it's real. it's a function of life around us. they just do not believe in the justice system. that they're going to get a fair

shake, that they're going to -- they know they're going to get a bad shake as opposed to some young white person. >> this is a perennial issue in american history way before the civil rights era, but trial after trial, rodney king, there are these flashpoints and it's almost always takes place in a courtroom. >> here are two reactions to the verdict that i think sort of really encapsulate what's happening here. first, from new york city mayor michael bloomberg. he says, sadly all the facts in this tragic case will probably never be known. but one fact has long been crystal clear, shoot first laws like those in florida can inspire dangerous vigilanteism and pro effect those who act recklessly with guns. such laws drafted by gun lobby extremists in washington, encourage deadly confrontations by enabling people to shoot first and argue jus fible homicide later. which i mean, certainly the law

that was structured around the action that happened in the case of the death of trayvon martin led to where we are today. >> the mayor is exactly right. >> he's exactly right. >> and you know, i -- again, i have to tell you, i had to get off line. i wanted to read about this case. i wanted to learn more about the different dimensions that led to the verdict but the vitriol on both sides from people who are not even really educated on the legal system made me sick to my stomach and it made me realize just how far we still have to go and joe actually wrote a column about this in politico. you should check it out. in part he says this, george zimmerman trial expands deep divide. the trayvon martin case highlights more than the flaws of the florida law or the inadequacies of courtroom justice. it also paints in vivid display

the vulgar state of american political culture. within seconds of saturday night's verdict exonerating george zimmerman, liberals and cub servetives scurried to their shabby political corners and began tweeting hyperbolic political pronouncements on a judicial process that few of them knew anything about. liberals launched anguished attacks against george zimmerman, the state of florida, stand your ground laws, the gun culture and the state of racial relations in america in under 140 characters. some conservatives used the opportunity to gloat and continue their attacks against al sharpton, the national media, racial politics, american liberalism and a dead teenager. the entire spectacle was repulsive. the zimmerman verdict shows how politicized every spec of american life has become for hyper partisan political class that has little in common with most americans. in fact, they are probably why most americans hate politics.

he looks at his party and why it may not be doing as well as it could among certain demographics. both sides jumping forward with ridiculous statements of anguish or hatred depressed me beyond belief. i had to get off line. i want to know about this but don't want to have a ridiculous conversation that involves screaming and caps. i wanted to click on links and read real articles about how we could move forward. >> you better stay off-line for a while longer. >> i think the martin family, sybrina and tracy have handled themselves with the utmost dignity. >> yep. >> in a conversation that has been launched on the tv airwaves into newspapers, into chat rooms, into the nasty comment sections that follow, and they have handled themselves with quite an unbelievable amount of class. >> jonathan?

>> about sybrina fulton and tracy martin, i've had a chance to interview sybrina fulton and she and her ex-husband have been very clear from the beginning, what they wanted at the outset was an arrest, george zimmerman to at least be brought in, arrested and held accountable. the next thing they wanted was a trial and they wanted a trial by jury. they were very concerned about a stand your ground hearing where george zimmerman could have gotten off by -- gotten off free and immune from future prosecution and sybrina fulton told me in february when i interviewed her, now that the case was going before a jury, they would live with the jury verdict and that's all that they wanted. and now that we have the verdict, i'm not surprised by how sybrina fulton and tracy martin are handling themselves. they're handling themselves the way they've always handled themselves with dignity and

respect. >> meacham. >> kendall, can i ask you quickly, do you see any action on the stand your ground laws on the gun legislation side of this coming out of the outrage over the decision? >> not in florida. as you call the governor appointed a commission, they didn't recommend any changes. people in florida like their guns. >> kendall coffey, thank you. wow. coming up on "morning joe," we'll continue the conversation. we have the moderator of "meet the press" david gregory joining us, tina brown, neil bush, the son of the 43rd president to inspire volunteer president and baseball analyst al leiter ahead of tomorrow's all-star game. up next mike allen is here in the studio with the top stories in the politico playbook. first bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> the well advertised heat wave has arrived for areas of the east coast and going to spread across the country. this will easily be the hottest week from coast to coast across

our nation. you expect it. this is the peak of the heating season in the smack middle of july. the jet stream has retreated far to the north up into canada. we have two domes of very hot air. one over the rockies and one right over the east coast. there's actually a cut off low keeping texas cool with new mexico but that's the exception. so for today, day to get to the pool, the beach, the lake, temperatures in the mid to upper 90s from washington, d.c., to hartford and we have some heat advisories out there for southern new england and a heat warning in the philadelphia area. and look, it goes all week long. the heat wave should break in the great lakes and the northeast by saturday but monday through friday, temperatures will be the same each and every day. i did mention the change in texas. much needed rainfall for a drought stricken west texas and also drought stricken new mexico. some of the worst brought in this country is where the rain is falling this morning. that's a great thing. rest of the country the southeast, just a few storms for you. but in new york city, in new england, this will probably be the hottest week you'll have of

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♪ the all-new 2014 lexus is. it's your move. 27 past the hour. time now to take a look at the morning papers. the fork times the obama administration's plans to deliver arms and training to syrian rebel forces may be more limited than previously indicated. the plans included supplying only small arms to a limited portion of the opposition. also, the cia covert training of the rebels which could take months to have any impact has been stalled in congress. >> the "new york daily news" has this. it's the very surprising death, cory monteith, the star of

"glee" was found dead in his hotel room saturday in vancouver. playing the role of finn hudson he was a mainstay on this show. the cause of the death is not known and a autopsy has been scheduled today. he's been open and honest he struggled with substance abuse, having entered rehab since he was 19 and recently as this past march went back in for help. only 31 years old. >> wall street journal, reports say google is prepared to spend a massive $500 million to market the motorola moto x phone. this will be the first smartphone -- >> am i wrong? >> no. the name of the phone. moto x. >> or moto the tenth. >> i thought they were saying m osho motox for a second. since the company was acquired

by a group google last year. all four major wireless carriers are expected to start selling the new device to customers this fall. >> has to pass your test across this room. >> smashed against a brick wall. >> from the parade of papers, "l.a. times," the price of a blackberry z 10 phone was drastically reduced this weekend by retail giants amazon and best buy. the phone hit the marketplace with a $199 price tag on it. now four months later the z10 is on sale for 50 bucks. this marks more bad news for blackberry after earnings report showed shares dropped 36% last month. a good buy for july. >> you get that and a case of few co new coke. >> "washington post," j.k. rowling was uncovered to be the author of the critically acclaimed novel which she wrote under the pen name robert gal berry. interesting. a london paper took clues from the writing style and also

connected that it had the same agent as rowling. once discovered rowling said it was liberating to write without expectations. meacham does the same thing. >> i do. i'm going to start using j.k. rowling as a pen name. >> initial sales were 1500. very good reviews anonymously written. j.k. rowling wrote it, boom. >> and to figure it out they ran this through a system like they handed it over to experts that took one of the "harry potter" books, to see the writing of the words. >> the moto x people -- >> that's good for them. >> "chicago tribune," kids movies are winning this summer "despicable me 2" dominating the box office, raking in $44 million. the movie has earned, get this, an impressive $229 million in the u.s. now close behind was "grown ups 2" the adam sandler comedy pulling in $42 million despite terrible reviews from the

critics and a horrible "grown ups 1" if you've ever seen it. >> no. >> but it was horrible. >> yeah. not really good. but disappointing third place only $38 million for "pacific rim" the robot monster action flick, cost $190 million to make. >> all right. turn back to politics with us chief white house correspondent on the set mike allen with us on the set. i take it you're not going to talk about harry reid, mitch mcconnell or the "pacific rim" either. >> we're up doing a breakfast with the major league baseball commissioner bud selig. >> how cool. >> mr. barnicle has given me curveballs, sliders. >> spit balls. >> he's great. going to have a gate time with him. >> that will be good. what leads the playbook this morning. >> in the playbook, how republicans say there's been a sea change in their chance to take the senate in 2014. we've been saying it's pretty unlikely they need to pick up

six, still an uphill battle but on saturday when the former montana governor brian schweitzer said he wasn't going to run that was a change because it looked like he was a sure hold for democrats. the left loves him. he was populace, popular speaker at convention, liberal flavor of health care, but he had what the republicans call a lot of rust under the hood. there could be a lot of issues that would have made it harder for him. now a jump ball, probably a favorite for republicans and they say now that they have a better chance for minority leader mitch mcconnell to become majority leader mitch mcconnell. >> also in the playbook, wheels in motion for the 2016 presidential race already. starting early is that sort of us must ring up news or something going on? >> it's not. >> it's not us. >> it's not? okay. >> it's not us. >> we're going to enjoy it and -- but the "morning joe" on

politico we're going to revel in it and both sides say they need to start earlier on 2016 and there's good reasons for this on both sides. on the democratic side, hillary clinton who was going to do her six months of reading and whatever she was going to do, has been very active and that forces anybody who wants to run, who onces to keep that lane in case she doesn't run, to act. we have the vice president biden supporters saying he needs to do more. he needs to be out raising money. on the republican side, it's very different from 2012. 2012 even though we pretended we didn't know who the nominee was going to be, it was pretty obvious with the money and connections of mitt romney it was eventually going to be him. you cans say this time who the republican nominee eventually is going to be. you have a lot of people with big followings and can get a lot of money. chris christie, rand paul, marco rubiop. a lot are scrambling to try to edge the other guys out and preserve their own spaces.

>> politico's mike allen, thank you very much. up next, danica patrick wrecks at the new hampshire motor speedway but it's who she collided with that may have people questioning her relationship status. brian shactman joins us for sports when "morning joe" comes right back. peace of mind is important when you're running a successful business. so we provide it services you can rely on. with centurylink as your trusted it partner, you'll experience reliable uptime for the network and services you depend on. multi-layered security solutions keep your information safe, and secure. and responsive dedicated support meets your needs, and eases your mind.

centurylink. your link to what's next. always go the extra mile. to treat my low testosterone, i did my research. my doctor and i went with axiron, the only underarm low t treatment. axiron can restore t levels to normal in about 2 weeks in most men. axiron is not for use in women or anyone younger than 18 or men with prostate or breast cancer. women, especially those who are or who may become pregnant and children should avoid contact where axiron is applied as unexpected signs of puberty in children or changes in body hair or increased acne in women may occur. report these symptoms to your doctor. tell your doctor about all medical conditions and medications. serious side effects could include increased risk of prostate cancer; worsening prostate symptoms; decreased sperm count; ankle, feet or body swelling;

enlarged or painful breasts; problems breathing while sleeping; and blood clots in the legs. common side effects include skin redness or irritation where applied, increased red blood cell count, headache, diarrhea, vomiting, and increase in psa. ask your doctor about the only underarm low t treatment, axiron.

♪ take me out to the ball game take me out to the crowd ♪ ♪ buy me some peanuts an cracker jacks i don't care if i ever get back ♪ ♪ just root root root for the home team ♪ ♪ if they don't win it's a shame ♪ ♪ for it's one, two, three strikes you're out at the old ball game ♪ >> oh, yeah. >> i don't even know what to say. but somebody needs to take him out back. know what i'm saying? >> yeah. >> it was fun. you had a good time this weekend, brian shactman. >> triathlete.

>> not the new york iron man. just baby steps here. >> that's still pretty good. >> i'm impressed. >> it was fun. >> i'm more impressed with people who passed you. >> they were older than me and yeah, i was humbled by a lot of 40 and 52-year-old women who whizzed by me on the bike. to sports the all-star break is on us. orioles chris davis had a statement to make right before heading to new york. >> here's the 1-1. davis goes the other way. that's back of the wall. good-bye. home run. >> so that's 37 on the season. that ties reggie jackson for the most home runs hit before the all-star break. bonds mcgwire, sosa, all national league. that's an american league record. on pace for 62. you remember marias is 61. some people think that is the real home run record. he will be in new york for the home run derby tonight. >> can we all sing the 1980's orioles theme song.

♪ oriol-r-i-o-l-e-s mamgic magi♪ ♪ oriol-r-i-o-l-e-s ♪ >> it's good when we can get a reference in. >> it's sport snobby is what i mean. around new york, only boston. >> [ inaudible ]. >> is that what he's saying? >> they're side barring about me. >> i know -- >> out of mika's dog house which is fantastic. >> i'll bring you cookies. >> will not be playing in the all-star game. hurt his thumb. this was a big deal because who might replace him? won't be dodgers rookie sensation yasiel puig. the braves catcher is taking freeman's spot despite puig's numbers. nl manager bruise boschee did not explain his choice although puig said to have a bad hip right now. too bad he's not making the all-star game. >> your thoughts on that.

>> exactly. what you say. >> an op-ed page. >> it's not a summer olympics year but tracking track and field and not good news. the ap reporting 100 and 200 meter champion tyson gay will miss the championships for testing positive for a banned substantial. he told the ap he was led down by a trusted member of his team. two other people tested positive from the jamaican sprinting team. which is a big deal because they dominate the world. i have female nascar news. >> thank you. >> what happens you and your boyfriend get in a car accident together. >> that's not good usually. >> didn't win the race but dating ricky sten house jr., a bump and knocked her boyfriend not out of the race but out of contention. danica patrick the female in the green 10 car. >> behind or in front? >> she is behind. >> he hit her. >> oh, no. she's behind then she's -- okay.

definitely her fault. >> they pulled over and traded information. >> by the way, brian vickers checkered flag and he has a good story. three years ago he had blood clots in his lung and legs and came back for the victory. how about this for road rage. this is in north carolina at a racetrack. some -- mike robertson thought he was bumped and wrecked by eric stultss. wants to get a piece of him. >> wait a minute. what's going on? >> look at that again. he wants to go punch his windshield, i guess and then the guy is like -- hits the accelerator to go after him and then he decides to go in the window and he gets dragged about 30 yards, and he does a good roll. >> that would be a bridge further than what my husband did at a starbucks when someone took his parking place. >> don't do that again. >> that's -- >> i like how he stopped for the four-wheeler, though. like the four-wheeler security guard comes up and stops him. >> really? >> i don't think starbucks rage

quite yet. >> it was kind of a rogue starbucks rage. >> that's going to leave a mark. >> not a good day. all right. >> see there's the four-wheeler, comes up, you got to stop. >> that's disturbing. up next political reporter kasie hunt joins us for the must-read opinion pages. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. kids are like sponges. they soak up everything. especially when it comes to what you say and do. so lead by example and respect others. you won't let prejudice into your home. the more you know.

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(sighs) geico. fifteen minutes could save you...well, you know. i tthan probablycare moreanyone else.and we've had this farm for 30 years. we raise black and red angus cattle. we also produce natural gas. that's how we make our living and that's how we can pass the land and water back to future generations. people should make up their own mind what's best for them. all i can say is it has worked well for us. the changes we're making are very, very minimal. what we're doing is saying, look, american people, shouldn't president obama have somebody working for him that he wants?

>> i hope we'll come to our senses and not change the core of the senate. we have never changed the rules of the senate by breaking the rules of the senate in order to diminish the voices of individual senators. we've never done that. we sure shouldn't start it now. >> welcome back to "morning joe" at 46 past the hour. here we go. joining us now nbc's political reporter kasie hunt, going to start her segment talking about all the big issues coming up on capitol hill and i expect it's going to be a roster of really exciting concepts but i see at the top of your list here nuclear option, what are you doing to me. >> your favorite subject. >> what are you doing? >> it's going to be a miserable week on capitol hill. >> really? >> we are going to be in for some fun as you saw. >> let's wallow in that misery, shall we. >> you don't mean putten. >> >> i do en't. >> top of the list. explain to people what's going on here. >> what you're seeing is what's

become a very personal dispute between mitch mcconnell and harry reid. >> right. >> blast out into the open and later today they're set to have this big ceremonial meeting in the old senate chamber to try and diffuse this crisis which has been defused a couple times before. what reid wants to do is change the senate rules with 51 votes instead of with a super majority. >> that's important. but it has become this little battle between the two of them. >> it is. it's very hard to get it to break through, to any, you know, real americans. >> something happening? >> are you suggesting that closucl cloture reform is not sweeping america. >> some other big issues that are going to come up on capitol hill this week. >> on the house side they're going to be talking about health care. obama care they're focusing on. they don't think -- they think they've been given an opportunity with the fact that the obama administration has delayed the employer mandate and going to put on the floor a bill

to delay the individual mandate, but that's sort of a giant distraction from what's really on the slow boil over there which is immigration. and which we are not likely going to see anything significant happening as far as floor action on that before they leave in august, but you are seeing republicans kind of wrestling with this idea of how do we address this in some way without appearing to do nothing. leader cantor working on it's a version of the dream act although if you talk to republican aides they will adamantly tell you it is not to be called the dream act because that is apparently still politically toxic. they're calling it the kids act. it would offer a path to legalization for some young people. >> and would this potentially see the light of day? i mean i'm grasping here. what here might actually happen. >> well, the difficulty with that in particular is democrats have always been supportive of offering path to legalization for young people. in this instance democrats and

advocates for immigration reform had asked democrats not to put the dream act back on the floor because it doesn't include their parents, doesn't include their families. we want to do the whole thing all at once. we don't just want to do young people. that's going to put potentially democrats into something of a dilemma. do house democrats want to reject offering legalization to these young people because it doesn't go far enough and then do they end up with nothing. so that's sort of the tension that republicans are setting up going forward for this debate. >> i think congress right now in its approval rating is in the margin of error, right? literally 10%, something like that. >> yes. >> what are individual member's approval numbers. if those are strong enough in districts that aren't competitive there's no incentive, right? >> the way the districts are drawn, and their individual numbers they might not be above 50% but higher than 10% in almost all of these districts,

but the way the districts are drawn, especially on an issue like immigration, for example, there's just no incentive for them to make any real changes or take any steps forward because they are where their constituents want them to be. that puts them at odds with even the senate which is having an unbelievable display of gridlock at this point. >> jonathan capehart, i'll let you jump in with a question. quote as you describe what you're covering on capitol hill, you use the words looking to have the appearance of getting something done. they're looking to have the appearance of getting something done. >> busy work. >> busy work. capehart, take it away. >> kasie, in the spirit of looking like they're getting something done, the prospects of immigration and immigration bill getting out of the house on a scale of one to ten, where would you put it? >> it depends on what you consider to be an immigration.

a comprehensive immigration bill, zero. some form of immigration, that deals with it whether it's border security, maybe 7. but whether or not democrats argue that's what it is is a whole other story. >> one that could get out of the house, a agreement with the senate, and signed by the president, scale of 1 to 10. >> 5. >> wow. >> at this point. you know, at this point, it's not quite dead but it's not -- it's on life support. >> kasie hunt, i'm going to get you a starbucks card. thank you very much. good luck. >> this has been a really, really uplifting hour. >> it's not your fault. you did good. you tried your best. >> her song "call me mayby" but her pitching prowess was a little less ceremonial. is her first pitch the worse ever? keep it here on "morning joe."

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that's fine. it's good. i'm good. >> i'm going to work on this in the 30 seconds i have. some are calling it the worst ceremonial first pitch ever. take a look at this video. it's carly rae jepsen, we all

love her, right? we'll get closer on this. it's before the rays game in tampa, scored a big hit on the pop charts "call me maybe". >> think she came in a little short. >> she scored a hit on youtube as well. it's tough to call. yeah. like straight down. >> it's in the dome. hopefully she got some bounce. >> and the crowd was there for her. >> my theory -- >> no one was there to see it. >> short cutoff oxygen to her brain which hurt her delivery. >> she meant well. >> some of the other ones up for bad first pitch. president obama back in 2010. he does reach the plate, but nowhere near the strike zone really, not bad. carl lewis wasn't exactly impressive a few years back. >> yeah, yeah, yeah. >> no. that didn't happen. >> yes, it did. >> he wants it back. >> redo. redo. >> what may be the worst -- cincinnati mayor mark mallory. >> what is that? >> did he do that. >> yes, he did. >> gosh, i shouldn't have been

so nervous. >> you had one? >> yespp. i did one a few years ago. >> you did something a couple weeks ago? >> yes. >> the congressional women's softball game. it was really fun. >> do we have video of this? >> yes, we do. >> oh, good. >> all right. up next, carl -- >> not here. >> i don't get it. i really don't get it. >> okay. david gregory is coming up as well. "morning joe" back in a moment. members of the american postal worker's union handle more than 165 billion letters and packages a year. that's about 34 million pounds of mail every day. ever wonder what this costs you as a taxpayer? millions? tens of millions? hundreds of millions?

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so do you think he would, if he could, carry a gun again? >> yes. even more reason now, isn't there? a lot more people out there who actually hate him, though he shouldn't. >> he needs to pro it text himself? >> yes. >> and the way to do it is by carrying a weapon? >> that's one way. >> he could get that weapon back now, couldn't he? welcome back to "morning joe." mike barnicle and jon meacham with us, jonathan capehart in washington and joining us best-selling author and award-winning journalist carl bernstein and in washington, the moderator of "meet the press," david gregory. so a lot to get to this hour. we're going to talk about the george zimmerman verdict this block. also coming up this hour, sex on campus, an article in "the new york times" sunday style section yesterday. joanna coles and tina brown will join us along with the author of the article about the increasing amount of casual sex that are

really -- is really about women actually initiating. it's a serious topic. the question, is it diminishing values in our society or as the title indicates, parody in our society developing. we'll have that conversation. carefully. but we begin this hour with the murder trial of george zimmerman where saturday's not guilty verdict has renewed the nation' debate on race relations. yesterday thousands of americans expressed their disappointment to say the least in the jury''s decision. protesting the acquittal of the volunteer neighborhood watchman. from new york to los angeles, demonstrators took to the streets, blocking traffic on major u.s. roadways chanting no justice no peace. back in florida, the parton family attorney spoke about the verdict -- >> i think things would have been different if george zimmerman was black for this reason, he never would have been

charged with a crime. this became a focus for a civil rights event which again is a wonderful event to have, but they decide that george zimmerman would be the person who they were to blame and sort of use as the creation of a civil rights violation, none of which was borne out by the facts. >> we have to remember what the prosecutor said at the very end. if trayvon martin, and the facts were reversed, would have profiled and followed and pursued and killed an unarmed george zimmerman what would the verdict have been? and i think the problem that a lot of us are having with accepting this verdict is we know in our heart of hearts, that trayvon martin would have been convicted. >> despite saturday's ruling of not guilty zimmerman could face

federal civil rights charges. last year the justice department opened an investigation. >> the death of trayvon martin. a doj spokesman says prosecutors are still examining the evidence and stepping back in more now that state has concluded. the white house released a statement from president obama reading, quote, the death of trayvon martin was a tragedy, not just for his family, be but for any one community, but for america. i know this case has elicited strong passions and in the wake of the verdict i know those passions may be running even higher. but we are a nation of laws and a jury has spoken. i now ask every american to respect the call for calm remeccion from two parents who lost their young son. and as we do we should ask ourselves if we're doing all we can to widen the circle of compassion and understanding in our own communities. we should ask ourselves if we're doing all we can to stem the tide of gun violence that claims too many lives across this country on a daily basis. we should ask ourselves as

videvideo individuals and a society to prevent future tragedies like this. as citizens that's a job for all of us. that's a way to honor trayvon naacp martin. what do you think the key questions are? there was lots of anger on both sides of the aisles, definitely in ideological circles, that i personally went over the top and didn't help. >> mika, you said something -- i'm sorry, go ahead. >> i want to know what the bottom line questions that will come out of this when all the dust has settled what will last and pass the test of time in terms of what we need to do to move forward? >> the most difficult question is not -- the president is making a nod toward reviewing gun laws which you've talked about already this morning and florida would be difficult. other states taking on the stand your ground law and perhaps even passing more of those self-defense oriented laws with regard to guns. i don't know that that's where we're going to see the most work. the difficult question to tackle

is beyond the legal system. the president acknowledged reverend sharpton on "meet the press" acknowledged this was a fair trial. that's what they wanted was for zimmerman to have his day in court. difficult evidence with regard to what happened that led up to the shooting. the troubling question still about racial attitudes. what makes somebody in this case zimmerman, pursue trayvon martin and think he is necessarily su smishs as a young black man walking with a hoodie on at night back to his house. that's the core issue so many african-americans are struggling with and i think jonathan, you understand this growing up and this is something that can't be resolved or confronted through a trial necessarily nor through our political system as much. it has to be much more cultural and societal in terms of taking on that hard question. >> carl? >> first of all, i think those of us who are white need to start thinking a little bit like

african-americans. the history of this country is to a large extent the history of race. our -- american story was built on slavery. and we've been dealing with the aftermath of that ever since, including our civil war and including the civil rights revolution, and we haven't gotten where we need to be because this is a case of vigilanteism that would never have occurred had it been a black person, a black vigilante, i doubt that we would have seen any such thing as this. the verdict is expected given that terrible law in florida. it is about guns. it is about profiling. and i think the president's statement was very eloquent. that we do need to start thinking about what have we done in this country that we can start to move in a different direction. the idea this has become an

ideological debate is an utter outrage. nothing ideological about this. >> jonathan capehart. >> the state prosecutor john guy did something interesting in his closing argument rebuttal. and he said that, you know, this case isn't about race and here's why. if you -- all things being equal, if trayvon martin were the person who pulled the trigger and killed george zimmerman would you find him guilty. and if you would find him guilty under those circumstances then you should find george zimmerman guilty of killing trayvon martin. now the jury didn't go along with that, but as carl just said, and as we all either explicitly or implicitly know, that the answer -- john guy's question was the right one. we all know what would have happened if trayvon martin were the trigger person. and he wasn't. you know, race in this country

as carl said, or as -- as president clinton said, you know, our lasting curse for this country and the only way that we can sort of get beyond sort of this muddle that we seem to be in going from crisis after crisis after crisis national conversation after national conversation that doesn't lead to the seemingly to any kind of healing, what we need to do is build up the trust that is needed to have these conversations and that can't happen on a grand national scale. it has to happen person to person. talking about race is a very intimate conversation. you need to have trust between the two, between the two people having the conversation. because if we know each other, i know you, i know your motivations, i know that the questions that you're asking might be painful, but they come from a good place. and i think right now, that there's not enough trust in this country to have that kind of conversation, whether on a

national level or on a personal level. >> i actually think -- i mean i think jonathan is right. the intimacy of it is what's so important, mika. national conversations last, you know, for a certain amount of time but that's usually finite. speaking to the mayor of sanford who has taken it upon himself to have some commissions to have some conversations, to try to do it at a much smaller scale, i think has much more resonance over time to get people to confront their own ignorance, their own prejudices, their own misconceptions, and then you -- some of this is generational too where younger people aren't burdened with some of these attitudes or some of this, you know, that baggage from one generation to the next. they look at it wholly differently and that's what has to be encouraged. >> so -- >> david, what about this? we've been on the verge of having these national conversations, for about four decades. >> yeah. >> we continually talk about a

national conversation on race. what about this idea. what about someone who's viewed as having some authority in this country, perhaps the president of the united states, treating this issue the way you treat the issue of alcoholism at an aa meeting? we have a problem. we have a problem in this country. we have too many people, too many white people in this country, who think they have no issue with regard to race because i just let a black guy in line in traffic ahead of me yesterday. i held the door open for a black woman in the hospital yesterday. we have a problem in this country. and it's a huge gulf between the races. if you're under 21 years of age and black and you're male, your life is entirely different, david, as you know, than your son max's life is going to be, than my son's lives are going to be. their suspicions, the view of the world around them is entirely different than a young

black male's view of the world. >> let me try something here that a very close black friend said to me about 30 years ago i never understood and i've been as a kid on picket lines and civil rights demonstrations, but i never understood this. a black person in this country is almost always confronted by the white sensibility, the first thing that we see as white people is a black person. we identify the person by race. and going into a store, if a black person is well dressed, too many white people still say that is a well dressed black person. we see somebody with a hood on -- >> or articulate. >> a hood on or a sweat shirt, that is a black person who is a threat. we go very deep here and at the same time, generational, zimmerman is a younger generation.

he's a vigilante and vigil antiism is a terrible curse that figures in this. it's racial vigilanteism. >> there was some sort of atr - hatred involved there. you can't help when you follow the case there was a sense that george zimmerman had issues that went beyond whether or not what he did was within the parameters of the law, but that are igniting this conversation. i want to go back to jonathan capehart who -- jonathan, you said this can only be accomplished in an intimate real conversation. certainly not on twitter. not on-line. not with raised voices. but i just would like to try and have it. do you think the verdict was just first of all and second of all, what do you feel is misunderstood between those who disagree with this verdict or between you and me? >> look, the verdict is what it is. and going into it like i said, i've been following this story

from the very beginning, read all the papers, i know that most of the inns and outs of everything. i watched the entire trial. and listening to the jury instructions and knowing florida law such as it is i wasn't terribly hopeful. i knew second-degree murder there wouldn't be a conviction there. i held out hope there would be a conviction on manslaughter. when not guilty came, i have to tell you, like i said earlier i was shocked but not shocked. i was shocked because an unarmed teenager was killed and the person who killed him wone, not only was arrested but was out for 45 days before being arrested and held accountable. i was shocked because, you know, we're talking about african-american teenagers, but what happened to trayvon martin, could happen to me. it's not just african-american teenagers. it's african-american men. and so we need to have this conversation, have people try to understand -- understand sort of

not only that this, you know, we live with the heavy burden of other people's suspicions, but that verdict that came out of florida turned that burden into a target. and so in order to -- for people to understand sort of the reality that african-american men live with and that i live with, you need to be able to sit face to face with someone who you know and who you trust, who can -- you can ask really tough painful questions to who will not judge you, not think you're a racist but you have to be open to listening to what that person has to say. on both sides. this is not a one-way conversation. this is not black people telling white people how they should feel and how they should think. we both have to talk to each other and listen to each other and that was the beauty of president obama's speech on race. he talked about the pain, the frustration, the fear, and the frustrations of

african-americans and of whites, back and forth. >> jon meacham. >> david, on the question of guns and, you know, this would not have happened if there had not been what a lot of us think are misguided laws about standing one's ground, although when it becomes your ground and you have the gun and the other person isn't -- doesn't, raises all sorts of questions. mayor bloomberg is out with i think an equally eloquent statement given what joe manchin has been working on, what the newtown legacy has been, does this verdict give any energy at all to legislation both in washington where you are, but also perhaps around the country and the states? >> well, i focus on the states. i think there's much more activity going on in legislatures around gun control laws. you saw it in colorado. but i just don't see it nationally right now. i mean you spent some time earlier talking about the

futility in washington at the moment with rule changes and filibuster, even all the pessimism surrounding immigration reform after the senate passed a big bill. i don't see that energy and enthusiasm even as we get closer to a midterm race and primary filings going on for the house to see gun control legislation coming back up. i do think, you know, that's an issue. i think the president made, you know, a passing reference to it in his statement to try to keep some of that debate going, but i don't see a great deal of energy there. i think barnicle made the point earlier, too, the president to lead the conversation on race, i think he has in a way he's comfortable with and fairly high profile ways, whether the speech he gave in 2008 in philadelphia dealing with jeremiah wright, clumsier intervention into the skip gates in cambridge, his arrest or in talking about trayvon martin. i mean how powerful was it for

our first african-american president to say if i had a son he would look like trayvon martin. i think that was a way for him to wade in. >> yeah. that was an incredibly powerful moment at the same time now it's interesting with this verdict, the white house statement was extremely -- the president's statement was beautiful, but i think it's -- >> but lawyered. >> tough time. >> before we leave this, that has to do with this idea of everything fitting into an ideological box. i see it in the response of the prosecutor. i see it in a lot of statements. david, do you get the feeling that in washington, this just becomes one more thing to look at through the ideological lens, like the gun debate, like everything else, that has stopped any kind of progress in terms of legislation and meaningful attention to the national problems? >> you know, it's an interesting question, carl. i don't know that it's ever completely been divorced from an ideological breakdown, but i do think there's something about

our political culture and the connectivity of social media now that whether it's the issue of trayvon martin being a civil rights cause, has been left on by some to say this is just the civil rights community and liberals trying to make it that, so that becomes the politicized and polarized and anything that now gets into the gun debate is certainly that case. i don't know that we haven't been there before, but it seems like it connects and congeals around these ideological fault lines much more quickly than i've seen before. >> that's the great national problem that underlies so much of what we're talking about. >> and one other thing is we have a supply and demand problem. there is now we have the means in a demand to say something about everything but there is a limited supply of intelligent things to say. >> there you go. >> and much more penalty and a much higher penalty for speaking one's mind. i mean the notion that social media is about a free flow of

information, that's really not true. >> no. >> you know. i mean it's the free flow of invective rather than, you know, the kinds of -- the other kinds of conversationsp whi which thea lot of talk about getting out of washington to solve problems, where mayors are doing it, states are doing it, and it goes back to the point that i thought jonathan made so well, these tough conversations have to happen at a much more intimate level among people who trust one another to be able to, you know, to have conversations that aren't comfortable or that may reveal an individual's own prejudi prejudices. >> david gregory, thank you so much. carl, stay with us if you can. up next the politics of abortion. republicans pass a strict abortion bill in texas despite ongoing protests. but can either side claim the moral high ground in the debate? that's the topic of a new column by "the new york times" david leonhardt. tina brown and the chairman of the mississippi republican

party, joe nosef. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. looked nice?

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. all right. 24 past the hour. we've been watching the abortion debate in texas and joining us now from washington, the "new york times" washington bureau chief david leonhardt. here on set the editor and chief of the daily beast, tina brown, chairman of the mississippi republican party joe nosef and carl bernstein still with us. david in your piece "why abortion is not other issues" you write in part this -- on abortion rights both parties have a claim on public opinion. maybe more to the point both can make a strong case that the other party has an extreme view. abortion is the relatively rare issue in which the cliche is true. public opinion does actually

rest about midway between the parties' platforms. as a result, abortion occupies a different place in the republicans' continuing struggle about whether and how to modernize their party. if the issue presents either republicans or democrats with a political opportunity, it is the one they will both struggle to exploit, given the passionate feelings of the their bases, but the opportunity does exist. and actually, joe scarborough did a blog we're going to read in a moment in response to this. i'm going to take this question to joe nosef because i wonder if an we'll look at the numbers here in terms of how people really feel about abortion at certain trimesters, but do you think this is the issue the republican party wants to take on, given all its problems right now. >> it's an issue we have to be able to take on. we have to defend our pro life position without offending people and without saying stupid things to be honest, without getting into auissues you don't

have to get into without being pro life. i don't want to spoil the information from the article but 70% of americans believe abortion should be illegal in the second trimester. i believe more people are in favor of the bill passed in congress than weren't. i think as republicans we have to realize that. it's a reasonable position. it's one of our foundational positions of the republican party. we need to be able to de fend it in a way that doesn't offend people. i think we can. it's key to our success. >> david, joe wrote this in politico, he read your piece, sunday's "new york times" ran a david leonhardt article on the tricky politics of abortion. leonhardt's suggestion that republicans are no more extreme on the politics of abortion than democrats is one rarely expressed by national media outlets and one that more editors and news directors should note. a consumer of national news might be surprised to learn that a plurality of voters support a congressional bill that passed the house that would ban abortion after 20 weeks with exceptions for rape, incest and the life of the mother.

state ledgislatures like texas and wisconsin, testing the boundaries of roe, expect to see the issues discussed again before the court soon. let's hope more news outlets follow the "times" lead this morning instead of mindlessly following a left leaning narrative on abortion that is more interested in promoting political agendas than reporting on political realities. one of the realities is the numbers of people that support a 20-week abortion ban versus those who oppose. there's more support there than you would think? >> first of all. thank you, joe, i appreciate that piece. second of all, part of the issue the steps republicans are trying to take do go beyond public opinion. there's a clear majority that favors abortion access in the first trimester, in the cases of rape and incest continued at health of the texmother. there's a clear majority of people with deep reservations about abortion. they do -- they are not in favor

of it in the second trimester generally. people are deeply uncomfortable with the effect this has had on the number of down syndrome births. there's been a decline because of prenatal screening. even if americans aren't on the side of the restrictions from texas, they also are on the side based on polls of unfettered access and yet we sort of seem as is sometimes the case, we have this debate around the polls where the opinion is in the middle. >> carl? >> i want to ask a question about the numbers and to tina specifically, as an editor, i believe that those numbers are not the important numbers and joe said a minute ago about one of the fundamental principles of the republican party is its stand on abortion. to me the problem would be more the idea that abortion has consumed our national politics and i would guess that the numbers of people who want to see abortion given the importance that it has been

given in our politics for the last 30 years is infinitesimal and we've allowed that to happen one in the media, two in the political process and in this crazed debate, we have put all of our more important questions, more immediate questions about real life and death aside, over an academic to a large extent argument, a meaningful argument nonetheless but ought to be put in perspective, the fundamental principle of anybody's political party i think is nuts. >> it is ironic in the last electi election we kept hearing from republicans the new debate was not about social issues but the economy and deficit but lo and behold this became the hot button issue once again. what i find so polish shus about this bill the other things that fold into it, the fact that these clinics would have such restrictions put on them, to

perform prenatal health care, which are also happening in those clinics they're going to close down and what you're going to see again is more punishment for low-income women because those women are not going to be able to get any kind of maternal health care. >> all right. >> we'll see more clinics like that hideous house of horrors that gossenle had in philadelphia where kids were being killed by scissors and the woman that died only died because she couldn't go anywhere else to get care. >> putting aside rules in place that are meant to get in the way of the process and shut down a clinic, which we can argue, is there anyone at this table comfortable with abortions after 20 weeks. >> i think with the health of the mother, with incest, all of these things, that, you know, that has to be an option for a woman. it has to be that woman's decision about whether she wants to go forth with that and that woman's decision alone. the american congress of obstetricians and gynecology wrote a letter to the daily beast saying get out of our

examining rooms. this is a decision about the woman and doctor making a decision about her life. >> we think of europe being to our left but europe has many of its countries like france, have more restrictions on the books for later abortions than the united states do. so there is unfettered access in the first trimester and gets more complicated after that. i don't know whether we're heading toward that but it's interesting to note the laws in europe and the public opinion in the united states are close to each other. >> that's where i think the debate is. >> in europe we have nothing like this all consuming debate that has overwhelmed the politics of europe, not in italy where the church is, et cetera. it's ideology again that is yawn mining us. >> i would argue what we spent time talking about last year was not the standard pro life agenda but things like contraception and definition of rape and th k things like that. that's what republicans need to stay away from. it doesn't surprise me you think

it's nuts but there's people that feel passionately about prot life agenda not as a campaign issue but policy issue. people want to protect it. it's something real to a lot of people. i believe it's something we have to be able to defend as republicans. and it's right up there with all the other issues. >> decide what the debate is. david leonhardt thank you so much. joe nosef, thank you so much. ti tina, stay with us. quite a conversation coming up. what's love got to do it? kaye taylor of the "new york times" joining us with her revealing new article about the sex lives of female students on campus. she will join us with cosmo's editor in chief joanna coles when "morning joe" comes right back. wi drive a ford fusion.

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i'm not asking anything. i'm really not asking you for anything. i have never asked you for anything. i don't even want anything okay? i respect your right to see and do whoever you wantp and i don't even want a boyfriend. >> what do you want?

>> i just want someone who wants to hang out all the time and thinks i'm the best person in the world and wants to have sex with only me. and it makes me feel very stupid to tell you this because it makes me sound like a girl that wants to go to brunch and i don't want to go to brunch and i don't want you to sit on the couch like i shop or even meet my friends. i don't even want that. >> all right. that was a scene from the hbo series "girls" the main character hanna saying she doesn't want a boyfriend. that seems to be a growing attitude among college women. at least according to a "new york times" article entitled "sex on campus she can play that game too." and joining us now is the author of that piece, reporter for "the new york times" kaye taylor, and joining us editor in chief of "cosmo" magazine, joanna coles. mike sat down with us and said this is going to be a nightmare. >> expert analysis. >> i would like you to join in. listen, i'm going to read -- i read this article, i am a mother

of two daughters and it left me sad and empty. and i just wonder what the takeaway ultimately was for you researching this? here's an excerpt. it's kind of rough. on -- this is from your article, "new york times" sex on campus she can play that game too. at 11:00 on a week night earlier this year her work finished, a junior at the university of pennsylvania, did what she often does, when she has little free time, she texted her regular hookup, the guy she is sleeping with but not dating, what was he up to? he texted back. come over. so she did. they watched little tv, had sex and went to sleep. their relationship she noted is not about the meeting of two souls. ask her why she hasn't had a relationship at penn and she won't complain about the depth of courtship or men who won't commit. she'll talk about the cost len fit analyses and low risk and low investment costs of hooking

up. i positioned myself in college in such a way that i can't have a meaningful romantic relationship because i'm always busy. and the people that i'm interested in are always busy too, she said. you give a sense in the article, by the way, that this is prevalent. now, am i correct? >> it's definitely, it exists at many i would say most four-year colleges across the country. it's not everyone at every school. obviously there are still some people who are having serious relationships. and -- but this is -- it's what i came away with to get back to your earlier question, is that this has been a profound social change that's happened over the last several decades. and things have really changed since the time that, for example, my mom was going to college, when women even if they were going to college and they were a minority then, kind of expected to get married soon after college and if they were pursuing a career, wit not going

to be -- they were not going to be the breadwinner. they were going to follow their husbands where he needed to go for professional school or his job. now these women are being told as they're growing up, you're brilliant, you're talented, you can do anything. >> you have options. >> you can be a ceo, you can be a supreme court justice, you can be president, but to do that, you have to work really hard, you have to get into the right schools and do everything right and you have to be independent. you can't attach yourself to some guy and make decisions based on that. >> so joanna coles, what are the positives of this and the negatives? >> clearly the positives are women are no longer going to college thinking they're going to score a husband and that's the point of college. what i found interesting about your piece was actually the sense of the ambition gap between men and women on college campuses now. we know there are way more women, i think it's 62% of college intake is now female as opposed to men and you have this sense, though, that the double standards about sex is still

applied to women. and so the women who are sleeping around because they don't want to be in relationships or who have friends with benefits as it was called in the previous generation, it's -- they're not getting as much perhaps out of it as they thought they were going to get out of it and the double standard of men not delivering as much because they're not involved in a relationship which i thought was a great point, and also this sense in which the women still somehow get labeled as being slutty. >> yeah. what i found -- and this is part of conversations i've had through some of the books i've written and with -- and women i know, what i think worries me about this or makes me really sad is that i think there are more young women than we know out there who want to get married and who want to have a meaningful relationship and actually this growing attitude which you spell out so articulately and so clearly and in such a raw form this article, it's a big, long piece, about the behaviors on one college

campus, and how girls and guys interact which seems almost sort of distortedly alien, like they don't know each other but completely connecting on a physical level -- >> i'm sorry to interrupt you. the fantastic bit where the girl says she will only have sex with people in their room because she doesn't want the hassle of cleaning the sheets. why would anyone want to sleep with this girl if she can't clean her own sheets. >> i found this piece tragic. it basically says these girls are saying that they're editing out completely out of their life tenderness, intimacy, excitement love. >> somebody respecting them. >> but actually, of course, as a mother of a junior in college, i know there's an awful lot of self-delusion and lying going on. these girls that talk about cost/benefit analysis and robotic alien, frankly sort of unappealing attitude to intimacy and kindness and self-respect,

are really saying, and i hear it again and again, they are crushingly disappointed. what they're crushingly disappointed about in the era of electronic media, a missing component in the sexual dynamics here, be girls are summoned to give oral sex, they come over, supposed to like it. they hate it. the fact of the matter is, sex with young men is usually a fumbling disastrous experience. boys are lousy at sex. >> i think the thing missing from this story and may be missing from the girl's lives is the sense of fun. you go to college to experiment sexually because actually i think mika, you may be right, people want to get married but they don't want to get married at college and don't necessarily want to get married right out of college. what do you do in that time between getting married? do you have relentless sex? >> you can have a relationship. a romance. >> of course. >> a warm sexy friendship without it being -- >> but they're not having -- that's not what they're having. >> when you live like that, i don't know what you're left with within yourself.

in order to be a part of a meaningful relationship. and what i was going to say before and kate i'll wonder if you saw this in the eyes of the young women you were talking to, because i feel when i talk to young women and tell them it's okay to want to get married, to say to a guy what you want out of the relationship and walk away if he can't deliver it for you, these women look so relieved like really, it is, they're being made to feel bad if they actually want something that's quite good. and it's sort of like the attitude that young women have is to give the middle finger to some of the most fundamentally important things in life and throw it away so they can act like men. >> the truth is that they are -- they think that it's self-respecting and independent to behave as if they can have no demands on anybody. >> right. >> that's actually not about self-respect. that's about having given up entirely to living a life that is negative of all feeling. >> and one of the women who i spoke to who was in a serious relationship said something really interesting.

she was talking about how she and her boyfriend were debating whether to live together after college, whether to try to choose jobs to be in the same place and that was a real dilemma. she felt like she wasn't supposed to do that. she felt she should take the best job. she said am i allowed to meet the person i want to spend the rest of my life with at 19? i feel like i'm not. >> exactly. that's it. >> two things struck me about the piece. one is the element of parenting. the parents of these girls. you know, what's their role in this or their nonrole in this. the other, more dangerous i thought, is the element of license. the guy and the girl in the room with the dirty sheets. when he comes back the next day or the third day, no. no. forget no. license. i have a license now to do this because you gave me the license to do it. there's a real danger there. >> i think there's one other character in the story the role of internet important. we know that the majority of youths of the internet is for

porn. you're at college, everybody has access -- shocking, right. everybody has access to wi-fi and the internet and this becomes the third character in the relationship and i think it's really distorting the way that people learn about sex. the fumbling that you mentioned and the fun of discovering this part of yourself which you ought to be able to do at college with mutual respect. >> to go back to the girls again, the girls, again, it's part of their disappointment and fear, they can't behave like those porn stars. they don't know how to. they're young girls. there was a virgin in your story. she doesn't know how to do all these erotic sort of dangerous things. she doesn't want to do it. she wants the guy to be nice to her. >> the boys can't either. which makes it difficult for them to get into the relationship other than demanding orl sex and the guy says get on your knees and it's easier to do it than not. >> incredibly important piece.

thank you for writing it. it was revealing and i think we need to talk about this more. and we need to talk to our daughters, everybody, and sons. >> and our sons. >> and our boys, absolutely. >> kate taylor, thank you so much. brave. your piece on-line at new york times.com. joanna cole and tina brown, thank you both as well. >> that wasn't a nightmare. are you okay? we'll be right back. [ tap ] [ tap ] ♪ 'cause tonight [ tap ] ♪ we'll share the same dream

♪ ♪ at the dark end of the street ♪ ♪ ♪ you and me ♪ you and me ♪ you and me ♪

so you can capture your receipts, ink for all business purchases. and manage them online with jot, the latest app from ink. so you can spend less time doing paperwork. and more time doing paperwork. ink from chase. so you can. it's funny, carl bernstein, mechem, they scattered, couldn't find them for the last segment. >> i was happy to do that. i was not invited. >> it was interesting, fascinating. >> i thought you went to tape. >> no, we're good. >> no, talking about sex. >> did you contribute to that? >> i was m.i.a. during first sexual revelation years ago. i was a p.o.w. >> that was during the

evolution, as i recall. >> you need to relax so you just sit back. edward snowden still faces an uncertain future. a handful of countries have offered him asylum but he remains marooned in russia. journalist glenn greenwald who broke the story told an argentinean paper over the weekend that if anything should happen to the former nsa contractor, a trove of information is waiting to be leaked, including the blueprint of how the nsa does what it does. greenwald said in part, snowden has enough information to cause harm to the u.s. government in a single minute than any other person hasser had. the u.s. government should be on its knees either day begging that nothing happens to snowden because if something does happen to him, all the information will be revealed and it could be its worst nightmare. >> i know something about this.

i think first of all, with all my regard for "the guardian" which is considerable, especially given its role in the murdoch case, that's an awful statement that that reporter made. and the tone in which he made it. it's one thing to say that mr. snowden possesses some information that could be harmful and that ought to be part of the calculation that everybody makes here. it's another to make that kind of an aggressive, nonrepoitorial statement that seems to be a reporter has no business making. at the same time, there indeed are precautions, i other journalists know about this, that snowden has taken in terms of secreting some information in various places that perhaps would disclose, definitely would disclose more things, some of

which might or might not be ameanical to the united states. that reporter is out of line. >> i don't disagree. coming up, one of the best teams in baseball, outfielder andrew mccutchen joins us. he's participating in tomorrow's all-star game. he'll join us with analyst al leiter in just a few minutes. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. mine was earned in djibouti, africa. 2004.

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up next, protest continue over the verdict in the george zimmerman murder trial. what the death of trayvon martin means for the national conversation on race. and the law. we'll be right back. at a dry cleaner, we replaced people with a machine. what? customers didn't like it. so why do banks do it? hello? hello?! if your bank doesn't let you talk to a real person 24/7,

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so he can just focus on getting better. we're taking it one day at a time. one day at a time. [ male announcer ] see how the duck's lessons are going at aflac.com this protest, this is a show of strength, but it's also a show of solidarity with the family because last night what happened was a complete disrespect to them and we want to show love and respect to them. >> it's unacceptable. if we don't speak up, nobody's

going to listen. >> we refuse to accept the declaration of open season on black and latino youth which is what this verdict in florida represents. >> i can't even put intord woulds the sadness, the emotion, the ang. i had to write my sister an e-mail to tell her that she's not safe in florida. >> good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast, 5:00 a.m. on the west coast, as you take a live look at new york city. back with us on set. and in washington, jonathan capehart. the trial of george zimmerman came to a close. saturday's not guilty verdict has renewed the nation's debate on race relations among many other things. yesterday, thousands of americans expressed their disappointment in the jury's decision, protesting the acquittal of the volunteer neighborhood watchman. from new york to los angeles, demonstrators took to the streets, at times blocking traffic on major u.s. roadways,

chanting "no justice, no peace." back in florida, both the prosecution and defense spoke about the verdict and the impact race had on the case. >> i think that things would have been different if george zimmerman would have been black for this reason, he never would have been charged with a crime. what happened was this became a focus for a civil rights event which again is a wonderful event to have but they decide that george zimmerman would be the person who they were to blame and sort of use as the creation of a civil rights violation. none of which was borne out by the facts. >> we have to remember what the prosecutor said at the very end. if trayvon martin and the facts were reversed would have profiled and followed and pursued and killed unarmed george zimmerman, what would the

verdict have been? and i think the problem that a lot of us are having with accepting this verdict is we know in our heart of hearts that trayvon martin would have been convicted. >> they're important questions. despite saturday's ruling of not guilty, zimmerman could face federal civil rights charges. last year, the justice department opened an investigation into the death of trayvon martin. a doj spokesman says prosecutors are still examining the evidence. they stood aside a while to let the state go through but now they're going to step back in. joining us from miami, msnbc legal analyst and foreigner federal prosecutor kendall coffey joins the conversation. first of all, your reaction to the verdict and also where you think this goes from here. >> well, the verdict of course created very strongly divided reactions because there was such a sense that george zimmerman did something very wrong when he

got out of the car that night with a gun looking for martin. and yet in the somewhat cloudy and murky facts, obviously, the jury found a reasonable concerning self-defense. there could certainly be a civil suit. but with respect to federal jurisdiction, it's very limited. they can certainly do another prosecution, double jeopardy doesn't block that, but they've got to have a federal basis which i think would require evidence of a hate crime, racial motivation. has that been developed so far? very hard to say. >> mike barnacle, i'll let you take it to kendall if you want, but i just want to know because i was watching the verdict and then i was on twitter and had to close twitter. the reactions on both sides were so extreme and so ideologically down right and left that it made me sad for this country. >> well, with good reason. this was a very depressing

weekend. race remains the great anchor around this country. dragging it down continually, forbidding it, prohibiting it from moving forward as fast as we'd all like to see it move forward. i am so tired of hearing people talking about, it's time to have a conversation about race. we've been saying this for three decades. we haven't had that conversation. to one of the points you alluded to, obviously, none of us here in the media were on the jury. we did not attend the trial. we are not familiar in depth with the facts that were presented at the trial. but on the surface it would appear to be that the jurors did their duty. they had no other option, given the stricters of the law in florida. now, perhaps the law ought to be changed, the law should be changed, but did the jurors have much wiggle room? did they have an option to go to manslaughter? >> well, the reality with

manslaughter is it still cannot be returned as conviction if there's reasonable doubt of self-defense. florida's gun laws make self-defense much easier. you have a basic reality is there was a fight, a fatal shot, and the only one alive to really tell the story is the one claiming self-defense. circumstantial caser in easy to begin with. >> this has to be judiciously acceptable. we have to judiciously all say okay. the family for 45 days asked for george zimmerman to be arrested. asked for the systemic process. weem waited other a year and a half to go through. we have the judicial answer. socially, it's unacceptable. i think kendall makes a great point there. because two people can keep a secret as long as one them is dead. >> go ahead. >> you mention that it was depressing, that it was a terrible weekend, that the verdict is unsettling for so many people in this country and probably around the world. i'll tell you what's truly

unsettling to me personally as a parent. i have three sons. not one of those sons that i have to tell, listen, don't run when you see a cop, you know, don't establish eye contact with a cop. >> right. >> you know, watch out when you're here, watch out when you're there. i never had to do that. but if you're a black parent, you do that. >> yesterday, the white house released a statement from the president reading this, the death of trayvon martin was a tragedy not just for his family or for any one community but for america. i know this case has elicited strong passions. and in the cake of the verdict, i know those passions may be running even higher. but we are a nation of laws and a jury has spoken. i now ask every american to respect the call for calm reflection from two parents who lost their young son. and as we do, we should ask ourselves if we're doing all we can to widen the circle of

compassion and understanding in our own communities. we should ask ourselveses if we're doing all we can to stem the tide of gun violence that claims too many lives across this country on a daily basis. we should ask ourselves as individuals and as a society how we can prevent future tragedies like this. as citizens, that's a job for all of us. that's the way to honor trayvon martin. jonathan capehart. >> i think what the president said was pitch perfect. you know, i guess unlike everyone around the table, i've been following and reporting on this story from almost the very beginning. i've read all the police reports. i'm watched the re-enactments. i've listened to the jailhouse interviews. i read everything that came out voraciously. because while, you know, i'm an african-american man and this is very personal for me, it was also a fascinating story. how is it possible that an unarmed 17-year-old could be

walking back home and not get there and be killed and have that person not be held accountable? what's so painful about this, about this verdict, is while i'm shocked by what the jury did, i'm not shocked by what the jury did. you know, the criminal justice system worked the way it is supposed to. the law is what it is. you know, barnacle, you talk about how you never have to talk to your sons about the rules, the rules that i've written about. don't run in public, don't run with anything in your hands. be polite to cops. always show your hands. be mindful that you'll always be -- you'll be watched. you'll be followed. those are all the things we're talking about in terms of teenagers, but that's something thatter in er inever goes away. that's something i deal with as an african-american man right now. the fact that george zimmerman could shoot an unarmed teenager,

an unarmed black man, actually makes me feel a little concerned. and i've never had any problems with the police, i've never been stopped, i've never been frisked, i've been pulled over a couple of times for speeding. but, you know, it's heart wrenching, it's painful. to all those people, mika, you know, my twitter feed blew up with all sorts of rage from the left and from the right. but the e-mails that i've gotten on my work e-mail from people on the right has just been shocking, unsettling and, you know, i'm still trying to wrap my mind around what happened, where we are. >> the reactions on the right and the left have been unbelievable to me. because i think the conversation we're having today is constructive. the conversations i've seen happening online from very well-known people are not. kendall coffey, this isn't an

argument other whether or not george zimmerman was a racist jerk or anything else. it was a legal argument as to whether he acted within the law. is that not correct? and then legally what's next, a look at the laws or silcivil action? >> you're right. even though there's this overriding sense, i think the jury may have had that george zimmerman may have done something wrong, the fact that he was very wrong, even fatally wrong, doesn't mean he was criminally wrong with respect to a self-defense claim and the rez be a doubt standard. i think in the next phase as we look at things, there could certainly be a civil lawsuit. because, remember, it's a much lesser standard. in a civil case, george zimmerman would still have stand your ground immunity claims to make, but he would have to get on the stand either in deposition or hearing itself and have a lot of explaining to do

and a lot of inconsistencies to address which never really happened in the criminal trial. there's also possible federal jurisdiction. but federal jurisdiction's limited. they're going to have to prove a hate crime in order to proceed federally. >> as kendall was saying about the civil suit where george zimmerman would now have to testify in that, that's what the doj is waiting for. where they could then be from a guarded distance taking a look at this from the side to decide whether or not to interject in this. i think it would be a triple gut purge to the african-american community, to those that look at this as an injustice for our social contract in this country if the department of justice got involved and then there was no justice. there wasn't some type of suitable outcome where people thought, okay, we're making a repair to the fracture of our social contract in this country. >> we're moving forward and developing as a society. >> mike mentioned and jonathan alluded to as well that mike's never had to tell his three boys how to act with the police.

my kids are a little younger. i can pretty much tell you right now, i'm never going to have to tell them not to leave the house armed going out basically looking for trouble -- >> i mean, this guy wasn't even the police. >> he had a gun and i know the debate about the stand your ground laws but, boy, doesn't this conversation raise an issue about whose ground. >> exactly. >> why was it george zimmerman ground? >> here are two reactions to the verdict that i think sort of really encapsulate what's happening here. first from new york city mayor michael bloomberg. he said, sadly, all the facts in this tragic case will probably never be known but one fact has long been crystal clear. shoot first laws like those in florida can inspire dangerous vigilantism and protect those who act recklessly with guns. such laws drafted by gun lobby extremists in washington encourage deadly confrontation, by enabling people to shoot first and argue justifiable

homicide later. which i mean certainly the law that was structured around the action that happened in the case of the death of trayvon martin led to where we are today. >> the mayor's exactly right. >> he's exactly right. and, you know, i -- again, i have to tell you, i had to get offline. i wanted to read about this case. i wanted to learn more about the different dimensions that led to the verdict. but the vitt reyol on both sides from people who are not even really educated in the legal system made me sick to my stomach and it made me realize just how far we still have to go. and joe actually wrote a column about this in politico. you should check it out. in part, he says this, george zimmerman trial expands deep divide. the trayvon martin case highlights more than the flaws of the florida law or the inadequacies of courtroom

justice. it also paints in vivid display the vulgar state of american political culture. within seconds of saturday night's verdict, exonerating george zimmerman, liberals and conservatives scurried to their shabby political corners and began tweeting hypeberolic criticism that many of them knew nothing about. stand your gun laws, the gun culture, and current state of racial relations in america in under 140 characters. conservatives used the opportunity to gloat and continue their attacks against al sharpton, the national media, national politics, america liberalism and a dead teenager. the entire spectacle was repulsive. the zimmerman verdict showed just how politicized every aspect of american life has become. in fact, they're probably why most americans hate politics.

he goes on to take a look at his party and why it may not be doing as well as it should among certain demographics. having said that, though, both sides jumping forward with ridiculous statements of anguish or hatred. just depressed me. beyond belief. i had to get offline. i want to know about this but i don't want to have a ridiculous conversation that involves screaming in caps. i wanted to click on links and read real articles with thoughtful ideas on how to move forward. >> i think the martin family, sabrina and tracy, have handled themselves with the upnot dignity in a conversation that has been launched on the tv argair waves, into chat rooms, into the nasty comment sections that follow. and they have handled themselves with quite an unbelievable

amount of class. >> jonathan. >> about sabrina fulton and tracy martin, i've had a chance to interview sabrina fulton and, you know, she and her ex-husband have been very clear from the very beginning that what they wanted at the outset was an arrest. they wanted george zimmerman to at least be brought in, arrested and held accountable. the next thing they wanted was a trial. and they wanted a trial by jury. they were very concerned about a stand your ground hearing where george zimmerman could have gotten off by -- gotten off free and immune from future prosecution. and sabrina fulton told me in february when i interviewed her that once -- now that the case was going before a jury, that they would live with the jury verdict. and that's all that they wanted. and now that we have the verdict, i'm not surprised by how sabrina fulton and tracy martin are handling themselves. they're handling themselves now the way they've always handled

themselves. with dignity and respect. >> meachum. >> kendall, can i ask you quickly, do you see any action on the stand your ground laws, on the gun legislation side of this coming out of the outrage other the decision? >> not in florida. as you call, the governor recommended changes, they didn't. people in florida like their guns. >> up next, nbc legal analyst lisa bloom. also from the center for social inclusion, maya wiley. baseball's all-star break takes over new york city. we'll talk to analyst al leiter, also andrew mccutchen representing the pirates in tomorrow's game. first, big kbill karins. >> the all-star game is going to be hot and sweaty. the heat index will probably be about 100.

as we start the game tomorrow, probably something similar. already the heat index is at 86 in boston. there's very little relief in the cities with all that pavement around. temperatures just won't cool off that much at night. during the day with the sunshine, they're shooting up. 97 in the big apple today. it's going to be even hotter than d.c. and philly. we do have a heat warning in effect. if you need to seek relief, you can find a little shelter there to stay cool. you can see this heat wave stays in the northeast all week long. saturday it improves. rain in texas and new mexico. they're much cooler than areas of the eastern seaboard. [ tap ]

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i think that things would have been different if george zimmerman would have been black for this reason, they never would have been charged with a crime. what happened was this became a focus for a civil rights event, which again is a wonderful event to have but they decide that george zimmerman would be the person who they would blame and sort of use as the creation of a civil rights violation. none of which was borne out by the facts. >> welcome back to "morning joe." 24 past the hour. joining us now, msnbc legal analyst lisa bloom and civil

rights attorney and founder and president of the center for social inclusion maya wiley. let's start with the department of justice. how would you character their statement? they say they're examining the evidence at this point. are they stepping back in? do they step aside to let the state do its job? what does their statement say that might stand out as opposed to other cases that parallel this? >> so the department of justice is taking a close look at this now. this is not the first time they've been asked to bring federal charges after a state acquittal. it's happened from time to time. probably most famously in the rodney king case in los angeles about 20 years ago. there was a state acquittal. the department of justice did bring federal charges. there were could be visinvictioe officers. in in case, the department of justice has issued a statement. really focusing on the limited civil rights laws that the federal government has. the federal government does have more limited laws than the

states. but they do focus on civil rights. they also have about a three-page long fairly complicated policy for how they evaluate cases like this. which i've reviewed. and one of the key issues is whether there's a different federal interest in what happened in state's case. when you're acquitted in a state case, the double jeopardy clause applies. that means you can retried for the same crime. if there's a different crime, for example, a civil rights charge, he was not charged with any civil rights crimes, than those charges could go forward. the doj's going to be very careful. >> what would the threshold be for a civil rights charge? >> that trayvon martin's civil rights were intensionally violated by george zimmerman who went after him. either on account of his race or violating his civil rights to walk down the street. but the doj wants to make sure that no elements of that crime were already litigated and found

for george zimmerman in the state case. >> the doj also says, i'll take it right from the statement, experienced federal prosecutors will determine whether the evidence is a prosecutorial violation. and whether federal prosecution is appropriate in accordance with the department's policy. amid all those words, is there hope that something can come out of this that moves this forward? >> i think it's a good question. because as joe has said, we're talking about how our current laws are constructed. one of the things the department has to do in a criminal civil rights case, a hate crime, it has to find a smoking gun that george zimmerman went after trayvon martin because he was black. one of the things the law has not kept pace with is the progress we made on race and how our brains on race, the brain science of how race works, is

actually much more subtle and complex than the law currently recognizes. the department of justice is going to take that standard very seriously and look to see whether it has evidence. it's going to make the decision on evidence. but the evidence, it's an evidentiary standard that's not kept pace with the social science. >> you know wahat's so interesting to me, in the state case, the prosecutor says explicitly a number of times, this is not about race. all of the protests have been about race. in the court rue, prosecutors said not about race. >> we, they said it's not about race and george zimmerman profiled trayvon martin -- >> not racially profiled, but profiled. what other profiling wase s tht? >> who is the ultimate decider? presumably eric holder. what's the decision tree? who's going to make a recommendation? >> an assistant attorney general, then all the way up to eric holder. >> it's going to go through several stages of scrutiny before a final decision is made.

i used to work for the u.s. attorney's office for the seventh district of new york here in manhattan. i will tell you, there is never a time in which the department of justice under any administration will make a decision without a thorough investigation of the evidence. >> and the most constitutional law professor in the country presumably will weigh in on this, the president. >> well, that's right. i wouldn't be surprised if they are already involved. they don't want another case to end in acquittal. they're going to be sure as they can be there's going to be a guilty verdict. >> talk a little about the brain science of race and the ramifications with perhaps bringing a federal charge. >> there's really important research that demonstrates that police officers and college students have one thing in common, and that is that they're more likely to shoot a black man with a wallet than a white man with a gun. and that happens in a nano second. so this is not about someone

stopping and saying, i don't like that black guy, i'm going to shoot him, which is essentially -- i'm oversimplifying but it's essentially the evidentiary standard. because the way the brain works, 98% of it works subconsciously. only 2% of our brains work consciously. when we say -- i'm not suggesting we should criminalize that. i think we should thing about how we dress that. but having made progress on saying overt racial discrimination is wrong and illegal, we have to address how much of it happens subconscio subconsciously and how much, right now, that is resulting in harm and death to black people who are unarmed. >> you're talking about something that people see but don't see 100 timingses a day. a well-dressed white businessman and a black man in a hoody. the store security people -- >> follow a black man in a hoody even if he has a pocket full of

money and every intention of buying something. look at the statements george zimmerman's brother made on twitter. i think a really good example of how problematic subconscious bias is. a though this was less sub can shus. he shows an image of a 17-year-old black man who has been charged with threatening to shoot a baby. and he puts a picture of trayvon martin -- never committed a crime, never known to have had a firearm -- and says, see. what that is saying is black people, not trayvon martin, black people are dangerous. that is the kind of thing that for people like all of us sitting around this table, who in our conscious mind say that is wrong, that's disgusting, in a nano second, we are -- our subconscious brains have processed that information and will act on it. >> in the zimmerman trial, one

of last witnesses for the defense was a young white woman who testified about being burr glarized by a young african-american man. not trayvon martin. there was no cross examination about what does this have to to with this case. i think the clear implication because one african-american man had been a burr glar, it was appropriate to be suspicious of another. the acts of one are attributable to everyone in the race, which is the very essence of racial profiling. >> and a white woman, a white woman with a child, terrorized by two black men. at a subconscious level, there is our reptilian brains -- and it is women on the jury -- by the way, i think it's very wrong to vilify those women. i think they had a really tough job. i think it's wrong to second guess what they did and why they did it. they took 16 hours. i appreciate them. but that's not the same thing as saying that there was not subconscious work that the

defense team did to racialize trayvon martin to make black men scary in a way that could have subconsciously influenced how they heard the evidence. remember, credibility is important. >> thank you so much. all right. coming up, baseball's best take to the field tomorrow for the all-star game. it was celebrities who hit the diamond and our own louisburg dorff was there. i don't know what exactly he was doing. analyst al leiter and all-star outfielder andrew mccutchen. back in a moment. (girl) what does that say? (guy) dive shop. (girl) diving lessons. (guy) we should totally do that. (girl ) yeah, right.

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all right. the home run derby is tonight. the all-star game will follow on tuesday night. but the festivities are already under way. saturday's 5k fun run featured baseball greats. proceeds from the event benefit superstorm sandy relief. celebrities softball correspondent louis bergdorff was on hand as they took to the

diamonds at citifield. >> this is the all-star game in ny at citifield. it don't get no better than this, man, it's a brand-new stadium. ♪ start me up and watch me go >> who you excited to see today? >> for me, the old school cats. >> i was looking forward to seeing frank thomas hit. >> oh, my gosh, oz is the greatest. >> when i was a kid, i loved watching ozzy smith and andre dawson. do i miss shea? good question. i miss some things about it. >> i came here and we had this place rocking, man. the stands would be bouncing. >> it's a dream come true to change clothes next to some of your favorite major leaguers. >> to company out here and just be a part of this, it's a

blessing in itself and i'm just lucky to be here and fight on. >> for me, it's frank thomas. >> do i look like i'm strong enough to hit a home run? >> i think so. >> depends on what you're playing. wiffle ball, maybe. >> this way, cut it in half, make this ball do this thing here. >> yeah, you can probably do it. ♪ take me out to the ball game ♪ take me out to the crowd ♪ buy me some peanuts and cracker jacks ♪ i don't care if i ever get back ♪ ♪ cause it's root root root for the home team ♪ ♪ if they don't win it's a shame ♪ ♪ for it's one, two, three strikes you're out ♪ ♪ at the old ball game >> i can't believe i had to sit through that. thank you, louis. thank you so much, louis. phil griffin watching as well.

should we fire him? maybe. joining us now, mlb network analyst and former all-star pitcher al leiter. and center fielder for the pittsburgh pirates, an all-star for the national league, andrew mccutchen. you should have won mvp last year, i don't know what was wrong with people. >> it's okay. >> you think i know nothing about baseball. >> no, no, you told me that. >> i have a pitch to show you. we'll do it at the end of the segment. >> she'll be back -- >> brian, you look -- >> you're right, he should have. the pirate story this year is great for baseball. >> you got to be there in october, andrew. >> i plan on being there. >> i plan on being there. >> it would be great for the city. it's a great baseball town, pittsburgh, a fabulous park. >> they're hungry, man. >> you are an mvp. i want to see you in october. >> they're definitely hungry. the city's hungry. they're excited, you know, they haven't seen something like this in a long time. it's fun to be a part of it. >> the last two years, good

season into the break. haven't had a winning season in, what, 21 years. >> somewhere around there. who's counting? >> they're nervous, like no, no, don't talk about it kind of thing. last year was good, then you had a slide. >> i'm sure there are peep who think that way just because of the last year. our pitching is so much stronger i feel than last year. you know, i can tell you, pitching, that's going to win ball games. we have a strong rotation. we have depth too. if somebody goes down, we have somebody to take their place. >> truthfully, this story, and i know you know baseball, you kind of know baseball -- >> i'm in the middle. >> stories like the pittsburgh pirates, the baltimore orioles, are great for the game. there has been for a period of time -- i don't want to get into the minutiminutia, of having pan baseball. to me, it was about higher

payrolls were almost a guarantee to make the playoffs or get in the playoffs. what the orioles did last year and what the a's did was even more spectacular. i think there are more baseball fans outside of pittsburgh that are rooting for the pittsburgh pirates to be able to get in the postseason -- it's been since 1991, '92? >> let's talk about the garm. you reference the game. there was a big piece in "the wall street journal." anecdote', people have been talking about this for years. the game is too slow. you're not getting younger peep to attend the games. so pitcher, hitter. one of the things that you can do to speed up the game is get these umpires to start calling the strike zone the way it was called as recently as, like, 10 or 15 years ago. al leiter, the old lefty on the mound, you take it from your point of view. >> here, this is, i'm with you, but i think we have to go further back. because what took place.

there's a reason the system is in place. there's a computer gps system that brought the strike zone in. what happened is from side to side both dugouts could see up and down but they couldn't see -- and the atlanta brake br were the best at that. that was all about -- they talked to guys about presentation. to catch the ball here. from the side, you couldn't see whether it was a strike or a ball. these guys knew it. the strike zone went from this way to this way. and i'm with you. if you call, and i know we talked about this in the green roof, plate coverage, higher fastballs, i think the play would be a little bit quicker. i know as a pitcher, as a hitter, you're probably saying no way. >> of course i'm saying no. i mean -- >> have you seen the rule book? >> i've seen it. i can't say i've read it but i've seen it. >> have you seen the guy standing there with the strike zone? >> yeah. >> all right, so do you get that pitch called a strike? >> no, not really.

vaguely you do. >> if a guy has -- >> so hitters get credited for not swinging on a strike? >> i mean, it depends. if it's a four-seam fastball, instead of straight fastball, doesn't move much, kind of stays straight, as opposed to a sinker, a ball that kind of runs down, that gets called a little more up in the zone because it stays up, it's up, and it drops down. you get that call. they'll call it a strike. >> without getting too inside baseball, quickly if you couldn't leave the batter's box, would that screw you up? if they said you have to stay in the batter's box in between pitches? >> as long as i kept my foot in the box and i could step out, you know, leave a foot in, i'm fine with that. but after every pitch, you know, you have to kind of reassess. >> do you though? you're used to it but do you have to? >> it's a great question because a few years ago, while i was still playing, that's six years or better, that the umpires were aggressive with trying to have players get in the box, and

pitchers every 12 seconds to throw pitch. and that's hard to do because there's a lot of stuff going on between the ears. it's a huge mental game. so when you're struggling -- >> it's stressful. >> now you see, you watch games, and if the pitcher throws within 20 seconds, i've heard two anouncers say, boy, that was almost a quick pitch. it's keeping up the pace of the game. >> also for andrew, you don't sit through -- i know you do it in interleague games. but you don't sit through the american league game of having -- the pitcher is the saving grace for i think the speed of the game. knowing you can pitch as a pitcher seven, eight, nine differently. it's not -- you know that. it's not an offensive game. >> maybe you guys could break down mika's windup. >> i did a pitch at the congressional women's softball game. take a look. this is probably a fastball.

>> the shorts or -- >> are we in slomo? this is going to take ten years then. never mind. >> let's see. >> and there you go. >> whoa, that was good. >> not bad, right? >> elbow should be as high as the shoulder. >> joe trained -- at least it wasn't underhand. >> no, that was great. that was fabulous. >> i love it. well, you guys are great. >> softball is 45 feet. >> you know what, i was nervous. all right. what do you expect with the all-star game? will the american league win? >> yes. >> huh-uh. >> no? >> they got to end this world series home game with the all-star game stuff. just stop. >> i'm not a big fan of it. >> really? >> no, because his whole routine. player's routine, it's different. the way they get in the training room, the weight room, all the stuff leading up to a game. they can't do the that. it's a hodgepodge mess. >> is your watch real?

>> i love that. >> as opposed to what, not telling time? >> not bad. that is very shiny. all right, al leiter, andrew mccutchen, thank you so much. you can watch al on mlb network before tonight's home run derby and tomorrow's all-star game. great to have you here on "morning joe." lots of fun. cnbc's kelly evans. ♪ [ male announcer ] clearly this isn't one of those speed-eating contests. that's a hebrew national hot dog. a kosher hot dog. that means we're extra choosy about the cuts of beef that meet our higher kosher standards. and only a good, old-fashioned slow-motion bite

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he's always looking busy. it's like congress. taking pictures now. ♪ take me out to the ball game >> oh, wow. ♪ buy me some peanuts and cracker jacks ♪ ♪ i don't care if i ever get back ♪ ♪ 'cause it's root root root for the red sox ♪ >> national past time. 19th century tradition. >> we learned that we could not sing. >> now we can do the national anthem. >> if it's way too early, it's time for "morning joe."

it's way too late now for what we learned today so we'll leave it there. >> it's the all-star break. >> and go to "the daily rundown." >> happy all-star break. fight club. that's a shorter title for the world's most exclusive club these days. canary reid and mitch mcconnell find a filibuster fix without changing the rule rules. the entire senate will meet later today in the old chamber. protests form in cities across the country in the wake of the zimmerman verdict as demonstrators call for new action in the shooting death of trayvon martin. and some of that pressure is directed at attorney general eric holder and the justice department to pursue federal civil rights charges against zimmerman. holder speaks later today as new york congressman charlie rangel and others are calling for action. good morning from