bashir.msnbc.com. chris matthews and "hardball" as usual is next. inside the jury room. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in san francisco. let me start tonight with this. a juror speaks. juror number b-37 said that there was a difference in the initial vote when they started deliberations last friday in sanford, florida. not all of the six women had the same judgment of what they heard during the many weeks of trial of george zimmerman. one of the jurors, according to juror b-37, wanted to convict the defendant of second degree murder. two of the jurors were ready to convict on manslaughter. so this raises the question. at least to a degree of whether a stronger prosecution case or a weaker performance by

zimmerman's high quality defense team would have made the difference late in the day. the questions people are focusing on deal with the ability of this particular jury tore understand what it's like to be a black youth in today's america. to use that familiar phrase, do they get it? do they know what it's like to have people suspect you of the worst because of what you look like, what you're dressed like or some combination? and are the people making their judgments about this case looking at the narrower question of get or innocence that the jury was asked to decide, not what's happened in this corrupt over the centuries and decades, not what happens every day today on the highways on the streets and in the stores of america, where young african-americans get singled out and often humiliated but what happened in those very few moments or less when the tragedy reached its climax. we need a larger jury to see the larger pictures and to make the larger judgment. does anyone disagree? billy martin is a criminal defense attorney, "the washington post" jonathan capehart is an msnbc

contributor. gentlemen, thank you. i want to hear all your judgments. i have my own. i want to hear yours. this is my listening time i'm learning a lot about america the last few days. look at this right now. one of the six jurors as i said spoke out for the first time last night on cnn. she didn't identify herself but she did speak openly about the case, apparently candidly. she said she didn't think race played a role in zimmerman's thinking that night. >> why do you think zimmerman found trayvon martin suspicious then? >> because he was cutting through the back. it was raining. he said he was looking in houses as he was walking down the road. kind of just not having a purpose to where he was going. he was stopping and starting. but i mean, that's george's rendition of it. >> was that a common belief on the jury that race was not, that, race did not play a role? >> i think all of us thought race did not play a role.

>> she also said she thought zimmerman was well intentioned that night. let's watch. >> i think his heart was in the right place. it just went terribly wrong. >> do you think he's guilty of something? >> i think he's guilty of not using good judgment. when he was in the car and he called 911, he shouldn't have gotten out of that car. >> do you have any doubt that george zimmerman feared for his doubt. >> i had no doubt george feared for his life in the situation he was in at the time. >> billy martin, you're a skilled trial attorney, tell me what you think about that comment. what does that tell you about the case the way it was fought by the prosecution, the way it was defended by the defense team? >> chris, what that juror's comments mean to me and what they signify to me is that she did not get it in terms of understanding race relations and race in america.

i started at the beginning. you have a young 17-year-old kid who happens to be african-american walking through a neighborhood coming from a convenience store and he's followed. that kid probably had real fear in his life when he tried to lose mr. zimmerman and he could not. he was frightened for his life. and to hear her say that she didn't think that race played a role, as a black man, as a father of a young black kid, i would think that what first came to my mind was, i'm in trouble. and i'm running for my life or i'm trying to lose this kid. and i think that the prosecution did not put on a very good case, and i think that the prosecution allowed the defense to talking about george zimmerman's story. you hear this juror and you see the familiarity with the george zimmer maen. >> she called him george. she calls him george. you can see that she bought george's story and george zimmerman never testified.

i think the prosecution made a colossal mistake, the biggest mistake in this trial when they allowed george zimmerman's statements to come in in their case in chief. through the detective and then through his friend. i think it was a big mistake. >> also the fact you have to allow for the fact there he was sitting several feet from her for all these weeks. maybe she did develop an identity with this guy. who knows. here's my only question do you think there was a way for the prosecution to skillfully and effectively present the experience as they understood it to be of trayvon martin in those critical moments? in other words -- in this country racial reality, how could they have presented in court a virtual picture of what this young guy was going through right up until he was shot? how could they do it? is it impossible? >> i don't think it was impossible. i think what the prosecutors had to do here was make it simple.

keep this case very simple. he was following, the evidence will show that george zimmerman called the police to say that he was following this young man and the police told him not to. we don't need you to do that, that he was carrying a gun. that at some point that gun came out. if they had kept that simple without putting his statements in, i think the jurors would have been confronted with a different case and george zimmerman would have been forced to take the witness stand to tell his story directly and been subject to cross-examine. >> jonathan, let's go to the political part. you and i are more familiar with. you're an african-american. have you ever been bothered by police and people in a way you could describe that said they're just looking at me as a black guy no matter how well i've behaved in my life, they're looking at me in profile terms? >> sure. i've never had a situation with the police. but i have had the more munday in other ways more corrosive interactions from not being picked up by cabs in new york

city. >> yeah. >> years ago and there i am standing with an ll bean tote bag and dressed in a jacket and tie and cabs wouldn't stop and i had to come up with my own ways of getting cabs in new york city. of the recently mother's day, my mother and i went into a local store right here on 14th street, and you know, we were greeted at the door by this young person. we said hello. and we kept walking around the store looking around. every time we turned around, there was this guy. and my mother felt so uncomfortable, she said let's get out of here. every time i turn around, he's underfoot. >> unbelievable. >> those are the situations that i have to deal with. still to this day. >> how does that influence rather inform you as to what you saw that you -- i'm not going to put words in your mouth. did you see something in that trial that these mostly white women, five out of six with an hispanic woman didn't see in terms of the testimony, the actual hearing of the evidence?

>> chris, there's not enough time in your show to go through all that. i think there are two reasons why probably race didn't come into the trial as prominently as i think a lot of people thought it would. it boils down to two rulings against the prosecution by judge nelson. one she said that the prosecution could not say in its opening argument that trayvon martin was racially profiled. she said that they could say he was profiled and people can make their own inferences from that. the other thing, the other ruling that she made against the prosecution was saying that all of the -- all of george zimmerman's 911 calls could not be played in court, only some of them. if all of them -- and i think they -- over and over and over again george zimmerman saying the people he's talking about are black males, african-american males, teenage black teenage males.

i think the conversation might have gone a whole lot differently and most certainly race would have to have come up in that will jury room. >> eric holder is addressing the naacp down in orlando late this afternoon where he talked about the trayvon martin killing. let's watch. >> i'd like to join president obama in urging all-americans to recognize that as he said, we are a nation of laws. and the jury has spoken. i know the naacp and its members are deeply and rightly concerned about this case as passionate civil rights leaders as engaged citizens and most of all, as parents. this afternoon, i want to assure you of two things. i am concerned about this case and as we confirmed last spring, the justice department has an open investigation into it. now -- while that inquiry is

ongoing, i can promise that the department of justice will the consider all information before determining what action to take. >> attorney general holder. also spoke about the trayvon martin case in personal terms as you just see. let's listen to more. >> for all the progress that we've seen recent events demonstrate that we still have much more work to do. and much further to go. the news of trayvon martin's death last year and the discussions that have taken place since then reminded me of my father's words so many years ago. and they brought me back to a number of experiences that i had as a young man. when i was pulled over twice and my car searched on the new jersey turnpike when i'm sure i wasn't speeding. or when i was stopped by a police officer while simply running to catch a movie at night in georgetown in washington, d.c. i was at the time of that last incident a federal prosecutor.

>> well, the attorney general also said that trayvon's death caused him to sit down with his own son to talk about the issues of being a black man in america. pretty strong stuff. let me go back to billy martin in this. in your sense, let's get to the question of the attorney general here. he's definitely in the determining seat here, he has to make a judgment call whether there is a good case to be made about a civil rights violation here. what do you see? >> chris, i had the pleasure of serving as a federal prosecutor with the attorney general. i know the attorney general. i know he will look at this he and his staff will look at this to see if zimmerman's prior statements, his prior positions brought race into it. and they can show that he was in fact, violating trayvon martin's civil rights. he'll look at it. it did not come in in the trial because of some of the rulings of the court. totality of the circumstances will let him decide if george zimmerman actually profiled and stalked trayvon martin and that leads to a civil rights

investigation. it should be investigated. >> i don't want to say something that offends anybody but i'm trying to find out the law here. if he says in the tapes that you have evidence of now with the dispatcher where does he ever say that there were african-american kids before young adults who had been involved with burglaries? did he have an identification of previous people suspected is of committing these crimes in the neighborhood as african-americans? does that is constitute profiling for him to look for people who meet that description? billy. >> i'm not sure. i'm not sure, chris. jonathan may be a better source for that. i don't know the previous 11 calls. >> jonathan, do you have any knowledge? i'm just asking the logic question. if you're looking for a particular suspect like two irish guys are involved in an ira incident and not looking for people generally guilty, but you know you're looking for a particular description. is that profiling? i wouldn't think so if that's

the case. >> he will well, in george zimmerman's calls, he does identify the people he's alerting the police to are complaining about to the police. my question is, do all of those calls rise to the meet a legal standard for the justice department or at least as part of a level the justice department can use to prosecute george zimmerman. >> i trust the attorney general. i hope he makes the right call and i hope it will ends up being the right one. i think to bring the case and fail wouldn't accomplish anything. billy and jonathan as always, thanks for that personal account. people like me need to hear that stuff. i've been hearing them the past few days. i'm amazed. friends of mine haven't been told me this is happening to them through their adult successes. it doesn't seem to help to succeed. sorry for us. ? witness for the prosecution,

when rachel jeantel testified, many thought she damaged the case. why didn't the prosecution do a better job of preparing her for her day in court in the also, so and look who's joining kirsten gillibrand in her effort to the combat sexual misconduct in the military. rand paul and ted cruz are joining the good guys on this one. on this one. let me finish with the memories of another case like this the o.j. case. i covered every night of it for a year. this is "hardball," the place for politics. in a timely fashion and within budget. angie's list members can tell you which provider is the best in town. you'll find reviews on everything from home repair to healthcare. now that we're expecting, i like the fact i can go onto angie's list and look for pediatricians. the service providers that i've found on angie's list actually have blown me away.

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rachel jen tell was a majors focus of his trial, of course.

how did her testimony play to the jury? according to the juror who spoke out last night, her message simply didn't come across as credible. the juror said her poor communication skills, that's the juror speaking here, played a role and the fact that she used phrases the jury didn't understand. ultimately, the jury said she felt sorry for the 19-year-old. that would be trayvon martin who clearly didn't want to be where he was. i actually felt sorry for the witness. also, last night, jen tell told cmn she thought things would have been different that night if trayvon were white. >> it was racial, leasen honest. racial. if he was, is, trayvon was white. he had a hoodie on with that have happened? that was around 7:00 or something. that's around that people walk their dogs. people stay outside. you tell your child when you see a grown person follow you, run away.

and all that. you going to stand there? you going to tell your child stand there? if you tell your child to stand there we going to see your child in the news. >> jeantel also talked about zimmerman's injuries. >> when somebody bash somebody like blood people, trust me, the area i live, that's not bashing. that's just called whoop [ bleep ]. >> well, was she better able to express herself on television than in the courtroom? did the prosecution fail to better prep her for her testimonile? with me is seema iyer and kiesha lebben was a prosecutor. thank you for coming on tonight. i want you to try to stick as much as you can to the trial and what we missed, what failed, what succeeded what the jury should have seen and didn't see. keep it within the legal framework, not the social framework. let's start with you, seema.

what about that witness? she the didn't seem to want to be there. how about motive? i get the feeling she had an attitude about being there which could have been based on anything, but it seemed like she didn't want to be testifying in that case. i think that hurt the prosecution. >> chris, she didn't want to be there. she showed she was recalcitrant from the minute she walked in. who do i blame? not this 19-year-old young woman. this is the prosecution. now, you asked us to keep it legal. chris, this is what we do, and i'm a i former prosecutor, as a criminal defense attorney, you woo your witnesses. you court them. you keep in touch with them, you make them comfortable, you make them believe in you and in the case and you make them feel welcome from the moment they walk in. she was not prepared. and why? we know she wasn't prepared because for instance, with that letter that they were trying to get into evidence, clearly the prosecutor did not know that miss jeantel could not read

cursive handwriting and instead she was embarrasses. the prosecution could have prevented this embarrassment by stipulating to the letter in evidence with the defense. i can go much moral further with this. but you can also see my article on this case, msnbc.com, chris. >> so basically they made a lot of tactical mistakes in asking, the witness for the prosecution, if you will, to read a letter they hadn't gone through with her. in other words, i remember for the testimony she was like i can't read is your sieve writing. in this case it may have been somebody's in particular. would an african-american associate in that prosecution team have been more helpful in being a liaison between the prosecution boss whoever it was and the witness? would that have helped? >> i don't think that's relevant because any trial attorney is going to prepare their witness for trial. it's very clear that the prosecution did not sit down with miss jeantel, they did not go over every question with her and make her feel comfortable.

what fries surprised me is they did not prepare her she would be there for a long time. to remain calm when she's cross-examined. that's one of the things i always do when il prepare a client or any witness for trial, i prepare them for the questions. i go through each question. and i make sure they feel comfortable and credibility is key in any jury trial. unfortunately, i think the prosecution blew this case. >> let's get into the particulars here. i want you to start, seema what could the witness there for the prosecution cog she have said jeantel, rachel, could she have said to that jury of six woman that would have altered their judgment? >> what she could have done is just been her demeanor was off. and presented the inconsistencies that frankly, were trivial to the relevancy of the case. and again, il chris, i'm sorry, i put this on the prosecution. there were so many questions that don west posed to miss jeantel about the trayvon martin, what was he thinking and

why was he doing certain things. chris, that is legally objectionable. you cannot ask a witness on the stand about what will someone else, someone else who frankly is dead what they were thinking and what they were doing because you do not observe it, and that is state of mind. so the i put this on the prosecution. >> and i also agree that with miss jeantel's demeanor and somewhat aggressiveness, it kind of put in the jurors' minds okay, if she has the type of attitude, is that what trayvon martin had? >> what about the cracker comment? i'm annoyed, cracker is not a word i hear from black or white. it must be a local term, certainly local. didn't she say something thank didn't seem to bother as an ethnic term of derision? >> i think it was an ethnic term and she being 19 years old did not think of the consequences of using those types of terms. i think it hurt the prosecution

to bring out that type of mentality. >> it also went to how authentic she was and again tying this back into the case. during summation, the prosecution did not vouch for rachel jeantel enough. did not promote how authentic and how honest she was about her observations during the incident. >> let's take one last look at this. last night, the juror was quite effective on cmn was asked about jeantel's testimony. let's watch. >> i didn't think it was very credible, but i felt very sorry for her. she didn't ask to be in this place. she didn't -- she wanted to go. she wanted to leave. she didn't want to be any part of this jury. i think she felt inadequate toward everyone because of her education and her communication skills. i just felt sadness for her. >> seema and then key sharks both of you, my reaction to this

juror speaking out now is not good. >> nor is mine. >> everything she's saying is filtered through a pc, politically correct, say the right stuff. you're sympatheticing to everybody and love everybody and you don't think race had anything to do with this stuff. blah, blah, blah. it's so anti-accepting, i don't buy it. seema first. >> if we didn't think race was involved in this case we certainly do now after hearing from her. let me remind everyone, her husband is an attorney. so that type of sanitary or sanitized interview may -- that's where it may have come from. frankly, she was completely patronizing in saying that rachel jeantel was inadequate because she was uneducated. she's 19. give her a chance to get an education. >> i agree. lakisha, what do you think of the juror speaking out now? apparently has a book ready to go. >> i think that juror did use the politically correct lingo.

there was not any sincerity in whether this woman felt insecure or felt some type of way about her lack of education or ability to communicate. i think the juror was patrontising. i do think that it showed that the juror did not give this woman any credibility whatsoever. and just basically wrote her off to be someone who didn't know what she was talking about and you know, didn't give it much help for the prosecution's case. >> i think if you're prejudiced in favor of george, you probably would like to see the failure of that witness to do as badly as she did. there's some of that at play. we're all human. thank you. great witnesses you two were. seem an iyer, thanks very much. don't laugh when i say stuff. i mean it. thank you, kisha for coming on, as well. we'll be right back after this. you make a great team.

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now to the sideshow, the kremlin is turning back the clock in a move that seems reminiscent.of soviet era bureaucracy, the agency responsible for russian security is ditching computers and resorting to typewriters in order to prevent the kinds of computer leaks that have recently embarrassed the national security agency. the reportedly spending the equivalent of $15,000 on a new set of the old fashioned typewriters to make the switch. and while it's hard to envision, russian officials using such a relic in the electronic age, photo shop makes it possible to imagine what it would look like. here's a mock-up of russian president vladimir putin stiping away at a meeting in the kremlin. another of him taking notes at a summit with obama. and last but certainly not least, here's the obligatory shot of putin on horseback shirtless doing this typing. next up president obama honored

george herbert walker bush at a ceremony yesterday commemorating his work with the points of light foundation. as usual, the former president who turned 89 last month was wearing a pair of attention-grabbing socks and following the event he presented obama, the president with a pair of his own. but this isn't the first time bush's socks have turned heads. here he was with the houston tex ands cheerleading squad last month. >> we have a special guest which i'm very honored. president bush. >> we went to visit president bush in december when he was obviously in the hospital. we went and delivered him cookies. >> thank you so much for coming. thank you. >> they called me, president bush wants to come. is that okay? i'm like like i can say no. >> to see him in such high spirits giving roses to all the new 2013 cheerleaders was great. >> we love your socks, too. >> yes. >> i'm surprised you noticed them.

>> all it takes is wild socks i guess. anyway, looks like he was having fun and is having fun in life these days. the daily show was back last night and john oliver didn't shy from the zimmerman verdict. here he he was weighing in on the controversy. >> this is an awful story. and it is hard to make a case for it not being at least partially about race. it definitely has some racial undertones if not racial only tones. is there anything that we can learn from then terrible tragedy? let's hear from george zimmerman's defense attorney. >> the prosecution raised this question about whether the outcome would be different if the races of the defendant and the victim were different. >> i think that the things would having been different if george zimmerman was black for this reason. he never would have been charged with a crime. >> yeah. i suppose the one thing that our justice system is notorious for is how lenient it is on black people.

>> well, up next, virginia's republican governor has been rocked by scandal, of course. now it's rubbing off on the republican in the race to succeed him. ken cuccinelli. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. this farm for 30 years. we raise black and red angus cattle. we also produce natural gas. that's how we make our living and that's how we can pass the land and water back to future generations. people should make up their own mind what's best for them. all i can say is it has worked well for us.

i'm hampton pearson with your cnbc market wrap. the dow losing 32 points, the s&p 500 down six. the nasdaq off eight points. "uss home builders are more optimistic about future home sales. builders' confidence surged six points in july to its highest level since january 2006. industrial output up. 3% in june. manufacturing got a boost as assemble lines turned out more cars. profits doubled at goldman sachs in the second quarter to $1.93 billion.

that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. now back to "hardball." back to politics and welcome back to "hardball." there are two marquee races in this country this year. new jersey and virginia governor. in virginia the consequences of a swing state going democratic makes the stakes in this contest even higher. that's why the investigation of current governor bob mcdonald for accepting lavish gifts from a donor is being watched closely for ripple effect into the governor's race this november. candidate and current attorney general ken cuccinelli a real right winger who has had interaction with the same donor in question is being dogged on the campaign trail as we speak with questions about the investigation. the virginian pilot newspaper headlines says it all. mcdonald's woes a topic of

cuccinelli town hall. today's daily beast headline reads virginia governor bob mcdonald's scandal spills over to cuccinelli, a tea party favorite for some of his em treem views. he altered the virginia state seal for modesty. the original seal shows the bear breast of the goddess of virtue. when he had the lapel pins made with the state seal is, the breasts were covered. and he discussed concerns about getting a social security number for a soon to be child. catch this whacko. >> our seventh child on monday if he's not born before. and for the very concerns you state, we're actually considering as i'm sure many of you here didn't get a social security number when you were born. do it now. we're considering not doing

that. and a lot of people are considering that now because it is being used to track you. >> well, he should be equally paranoid about his friends as he is about the government. despite all of what you just heard from this guy, he's in a neck and neck race for governor of virginia. michael steele is a former chairman of the rnc and msnbc contributor of great report. and margie o'mara is a democratic strategist. you don't have a chance against this guy. let me start with you. can the democrats leverage the problems of the current governor to winning the seat for governor this november? >> well, i think ken cuccinelli has a variety of things that make him vulnerable. it's not just about the mcdonald scandal. he has to run from his own record and the record of his lieutenant governor candidate who said even more extreme ideas. and you see it right now. he's vulnerable. is he losing in the polls. he's being outspent.

and every day that all of these scandals are in the news news is more time he is not getting his own message out. >> tie him to the scandal. >> time for the scandal? >> can you tie him to the scandals of mcdonald? can you do that tonight. >> absolutely. it's not just about the the scandal. ken sioux nellie had undisclosed gifts and stock investments with the same donor. it's not just he had relationships or interactions with that donor. he had the same exact problem. he also when the chef also part of the scandal, an the mansion chef came to cuccinelli and said there are some problems going on in the governor's mansion, did he nothing for almost a year. it's not just bob mcdonald's the governor and these problems are also cuccinelli's. they are ken cuccinelli's own problems. he has the same problems in addition to all the other things. >> did he take a stock tip from that guy to get the $4,000 advantage he picked up quickly on a very small investment? >> yeah. i don't think i would be taking

a lot of tips from cuccinelli personally. >> do you think he got a stock tip in that's the issue here. >> i don't know. i think one issue for voters is not necessarily the stock tip. he's not disclosing this information. he's not following the ethics haw that exists. and he's trying to pretend that you know he just did it inadvertently. >> the michael, it looks like this race is going to test whether he can debate a seasoned pro. it's cuccinelli's conservatism against the problem of corruption in the governor's mansion it seems are the big issues right now. your thoughts? >> i think that there's a little residual drag on the cuccinelli campaign. nothing damaging or earth shattering at this stage simply because we're at the end of july in the middle of the summer. polls out this week show him only four points down in that race. voters haven't focused in on it. i think one of the things the

cuccinelli campaign has to do is to very appropriately address as many open questions with respect to his campaign and his personal relationship with this individual irrespective of the governors as much as possible before you get into that labor day window where voters do come back in, they start to focus on the campaign and begin to make up their mind about the next leadership of the state. i think cuccinelli has the room to do that and i think a lot of this is a lot of wit ling past the graveyard nor democrats. i'd be very careful because four points down in july is not earth shattering >> there's a lot of fast movement. mcdonald's numbers have dropped 12 points in a month. >> he's not running for governor. >> by the way, actually every single candidate has represented the party not in the white house. it's obviously a cuccinelli advantage because that's the way

it always works in virginia. they love to react to what's going on negatively in the white house. up next, new york senator kirsten gillibrand's effort to change the way the military handles military assault gets a big boost from rand paul and ted cruz. strange bed fellows here. she joins us next. this is "hardball," the place for politics. ♪ show map. [ whines ] ♪

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civil war out in wyoming. liz cheney, the daughter of dick cheney, announced in a video to supporters sheet challenge fellow republican senator mike enzi. while wyoming's a deep red state, she threatens to divide the state's republicans. senator enzi announced today he's running for re-election and many republicans say he hasn't done anything to warrant stepping aside. but that's not stopping cheney. it is cheney. he's about to take one on the chinny. we'll be right back. every day we're working to be an even better company -

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assault cases from the military's usual chain of command. and aid junior senator from new york, she has been whipping up her colleagues to fight for support. today she scored a big victory in getting closer to the 51 votes she needs to change one of the biggest forces in military justice. rand paul and ted cruise joined in her fight. >> i think the bill's even stronger. i see no reasonian conservatives shouldn't support this. the only thing i think standing in the way is the status quo and senator boxer was right. everybody says they're against sexual assault. why don't we if it appears as if there is some deterrence to victims reporting the crime, why don't we fix it. i seed no reason not to fix it. i'm glad to be part of the process. >> if she does score an upset victory in the senate getting it passed the support of cruz and paul could be a big part of that to winning over the republican-controlled house of representatives thereafter. senator gillibrand joins us

along with the great senator from california, barbara boxer. senator gillibrand, you're going to rewrite the history books how to deal with these people. you managed to get them to join a mainstream good bill. how did you do it? is. >> this is a common sense solution to a very, very tough problem. we've got 26,000 cases of unwanted sexual contact, abuse and rape in the military today. but only 3300 are actually being reported and only one in ten are going to trial. so what the victims have told us is they want on the activity. the chain of command is the problem. they're not seeing justice being done and they want us to take it out of the chain of command. both senator rand paul and ted cruz believe in a solution that's common sense and frankly, it's not a democratic idea or republican idea. it's just a good idea. >> let me go to senator boxer in this fight a long time for sexual equality and respect i should say. are you amazed that these two guys on the far right who may well be leading the band in 2016

on the republican side for president are joining in what you i believe think is a good cause? >> this gives me renewed faith that we can take an issue that makes sense and we can take it to it the liberal wing, the moderate wing, the right wing, the left wing, we can take it to everybody. and partnering with kersten, as i have, and we have many other democrats and republicans working with us, such as senator grassley who was at the press conference today. i think what people want to see us do is just this, work together, chris. we have a 90% problem. what do i mean by that? 90% of sexual assaults are not reported. only 10% are reported. and the reason is very clear, over 20 years the military has been promising to take action on sexual assault. they've done literally very little to make it go away. we have thousands of felons

walking around the military, because frankly, they got off scot-free. no one ever reported them. and i'm so proud of senator gillibrand. we are working together. and i will tell you, it's cooperation all the way. with so many of our female and male senators from both sides of the aisle. >> let's talk turkey about getting this into law. senator gillibrand, you have to get this on the floor. you have to pass it on the floor, get the amendment brought up and taken over. are you going to face opposition from senator levin, the chair of the committee? >> well, senator levin doesn't support this amendment, but there are many, many senators who do. and we are working our way to the 51 votes we need to pass this amendment to change how these cases are dealt with. we want the decision-makers to be objective, trained, not the chain of command where there could be bias, where this could be a lack of train organize a lack of ability to understand what these cases are actually about. >> how many votes have you got? >> we have almost 51. >> how close? >> very close.

>> close enough? >> not yet. but we will get there. we're very close. my goal, chris, is to spend the next several weeks talking with our colleagues one-on-one about their concerns. everyone in the senate wants to solve this issue. they don't want sexual assault and rape in the military because it's undermining our military readiness. it's undermining good order and discipline. and the reality is if we want to have the best fighting force in the world, in the future we have to make sure all of our best and brightest can serve, and not have these victims have to suffer through the crimes without being able to get the justice that they deserve. >> you know, senator boxer, i've known you a long time. i didn't know about the gravities. these aren't about office mismanagement or bad words used or hey, sweetie, nice gun or something, it was about criminal actions. >> absolutely. >> we're talking assault and talking rape. and they're getting away with it. also, it affects some men on men cases which most people weren't even aware of. your thoughts. >> chris, half of the victims are men. let me just tell you you're exactly right.

we're talking about violence. this isn't about, you know, somebody looking at someone and winking at them. this is about serious violence, men on men, men on women. this is what we're facing. 26,000 of these cases. i'll tell you one extremely fast story. i stood next to a woman named stacey. she joined the marines when she was 19. a sergeant took her out for a drink. he drugged her. he dropped her in front of the bar at 4:00 a.m. you know what happened? all the facts were in evidence. nobody disputed it. the commander said, you know, he said to the guy, you just leave the military. that's your best deal before you get into any trouble. so he got out scot-free. and they investigated her for drug use because of that night. and she was drummed out of the military. finally, ten years later as a result of this legislation, she's come forward to tell her story. we need the support of the american people. i hope they'll weigh in and let all of our colleagues know to get on that bill, the kirsten

gillibrand bill. >> who should we write? any particular targets of opportunity in the senate that should be talked to by people watching this show, women especially perhaps? >> my view is you should let your member of coming and your senator know how you feel about this issue. well need to have justice done for victims. we have to listen to the victims. they're the one who is saying we don't trust the chain of command. the chain of command aren't taking these cases seriously. and interestingly, among the people who do report these crimes, 62% are actually retaliated against for reporting the crimes. so i think every senator should hear from their constituents about why this is so important. it's essential that the american people are heard on this issue. >> it's great to hear from you. the only thing i got a problem, it may be a weird problem but a good thing. i think you guys unintentionally are pushing rand paul and ted cruz to the front of the republican party. and if those guys either one of them gets the nomination in 2016, hillary will have a cakewalk.

anyway, thank you, kirsten gillibrand and senator barbara boxer for joining us. i'm sure that's not your intention. when we return, let me finish with some lasting memories of another celebrated case, the o.j. case. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. wi drive a ford fusion. who is healthier, you or your car? i would say my car. probably the car. cause as you get older you start breaking down. i love my car. i want to take care of it. i have a bad wheel - i must say. my car is running quite well. keep your car healthy with the works. $29.95 or less after $10 mail-in rebate at your participating ford dealer. so you gotta take care of yourself? yes you do. you gotta take care of your baby? oh yeah! always go the extra mile. to treat my low testosterone, i did my research.

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let me finish tonight with this. i imagine, maybe i'm wrong, that some people like me have found their mind bouncing back this week to the o.j. simpson verdict. i covered that trial of simpson

for double murder in its entirety. every night i watched it as it ranged widely the question of evidence custody, to something called contamination of blood evidence, to what a police officer said in an interview for a movie script, to the glove, of course, and whether it fit. it went on and on, and grabbed the attention of the country. i thought o.j. did it, and i still do. i believe the prosecution case of marcia clark and christopher darden. that day he was acquitted and set free. again, i was stunned by the verdict, especially after hearing that it had been arrived at after just two hours. in los angeles, when mr. simpson got convict to have had other charge in las vegas i figured it brought with it some compensating justice, if you will. so i don't hold it against people who don't like verdicts. my father was a court reporter in philadelphia for 30 years told my brothers and i if you're guilty of something, get yourself a jury because you can never predict a jury. if you're innocent, try to get a judge to hear the case.

he or she will be your best bet to see the truth of what actually happened. so we're at it again, questioning a jury's judgment. i always thought the judgment in the o.j. case was really about the bad old history of the l.a. police. hopefully it did some good, that judgment. the verdict i didn't share. well, maybe this one will achieve the same in the end, a good result. at least for the future. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "politicsnation" with al sharpton starts right now. thanks, chris, and thanks to you for tuning in. tonight's lead, inside the jury room. the woman known as juror b37 reveals what went on behind closed doors during the george zimmerman murder trial. in a national tv show on cnn, she offered surprising new details about how the six women on that jury reached their not guilty verdict.