guns and race in america. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm in francis. let me start tonight with this. there were things i didn't know about guns and race in this country until just now. if you are white in this country you have five times higher chance of shooting yourself. however, if you have black in this country you have five times as much a chance of getting shot by someone else. these and other statistics i could give you, but let's get started where there's no debate that the fact that street crime in this country exists, and people living in cities are taking the brunt of it. that's one reason why three out of five people living in urban areas support gun control, where only about a third of people in rurp areas do.

there are other factors, i know, but crime and violence are a part of it. ground zero in the gun's debate are those words "stand your ground" and the laws about them. let's get to them right now. michael steele was chairman of the rnc and is msnbc political analyst and mayor willie brown of san francisco joins me. mayor brown, thank you for joining us. let's look at the nra. it's out there already attacking the attorney general eric holder for what he said tuesday at the naacp convention. the attorney general took issue with stand your ground laws, that he said often result in violence. let's listen. >> separate and apart from the case that's drawn the nation's attention, it's time to question laws that senselessly expand the concept of self-defense. >> these laws try to fix something that was never broken. there has always been a legal defense for using deadly force

and -- and the "if" is important qush if no safe retreat is available, but we must examine laws that take this further by eliminating the common sense and age-old requirement that people who feel threatened have a duty to retreat outside their home if they can do so safely. we must stand our ground, to ensure that our laws reduce violence and take a hard look at laws that contribute to more violence that they prevent. the executive director of the nra's lobbying arm used holder's comments, the comments of the attorney general, to turn up the temperature, saying "the attorney general fails to understand that self-defense is not a concept. it's a fundamental human right. to send a message that jet self-defense is blame is unconscionable. mayor brown, i guess that's what we normally do action if a bug has a bus accident, we care

about bus safety. if a plane crashes, we think about plane safety. it's normal reaction to talk about guns when somebody has shot and kind. it seems to me your thoughts. >> i think eric holder -- he -- should have even been stronger on the question. chris, it's clear in this nation we have the concept, and we've had it forever, that if you are attacked, and you see no other way you can use whatever reasonable force there is to defend yourself. that's a concept we have lived with forever. that concept does not include getting out of your car on instructions from someone to say, don't get out of your car, following somebody for the purpose of doing whatever you wish to do. that's the circumstances that was available in florida in

saying we need to reexamine these laws. >> let's stay on this and throw in some street smarts. i'll get michael in here, too. would a guy get out pursuing a person he believed to be a criminal? let's face it, put it all together here. he believed the person he was following was a burglar, someone who was a felon, a lot of reason not to get picked up, and a person who might be physically dangerous. would he have done that without a gun in his holster? that's my question. >> of course not. he did that for the express purpose of carrying out an act that a person who is incompetent to be a peace officer was engaging in. he had been instructed, don't do that. but this guy is strange, the prosecutor was strange, florida is strange, the jurors were strange.

how can you assert self-defense and you never testify? that's crazy. you're a lawyer, mr. mayor. and i know -- they don't want to testify. you're not required by the law to testify. that's what the fifth amendment is all about. so the fact of the matter is i agree with a lot of what the mayor is saying. but we can't lose sight of the fact that one of shies is not a major part of the conversation necessarily, it certainly wasn't something taken into account by the prosecution or the defense, so there's bootstrapping of this issue, and in my estimation

problematic to make a point. we've done the gun debate, chris, and the congress, and the president went to sleep on it. and -- >> before you jump on the president -- consequently people lost interest in it. >> i think -- i think there is a connection between stand your ground and this real push for everybody carrying a gun, whether it's open carry or concealed carry, this obsession, it seems to me, by the nra, with everybody having a gun at the ready. if you are told by the law that you don't have to run, if somebody gives you -- you can stand right there, even when you think it's a threatening situation and say i don't have any problem, i'm arm, you don't think those are connected, this aggressive gun rights push these days? >> well, look, in terms of the bootstrapping, i'm talking about in the context of the facts of this case, of this a key elemental aspect was not the gun. it was the defense that the

defendant undertook, and it was the actions of, unfortunately -- it shouldn't have been, but it was, of trayvon martin. >> i understand. >> so the fact of the matter is we'll have a gun debate, if you'll have it in the context of this case, my caution is that we be careful and not glom a too much, because the facts just don't bear it out. >> just remember, mayor, your thought here, it was the nra that jumped in on this case. the nra thinks that stand your ground is one of their concerns. they're the one that lobbed on to this thing. your thoughts, mr. mayor? illustrates i would think anybody who has ever talked about the issue really should say if you're going to have a gun, there's got to be some interpret ace of the responsibility you must exercise with that gun action and clearly self-defense and all the component surrounding self-defense and experience people have had with

self-defense ought to be a part of that educational process, but let me say also, chris, you know fla. >> is a real weird state. when initially you didn't want to charge, you were only forced to charge because of the incredible amount of public opinion, and then you ineptly do what you do in preparation for witnesses and all of the testimony. it is clear there was no attempt, legitimate attempt at justice in this case by the state of florida, and it should be dealt with in that fashion. >> rick scott, who i don't like, as a governor jumped in on this case. he assigned the u.s. attorney, got somehow the attorney in that area to get involved. there was a lot of push from the conservative rep side when there

hadn't been a -- >> i agree with you on that, chris. i take exception with the mayor's approach on that aspect of this case, simply because the governor did bring in the u.s. attorney, did bring in the federal authorities to look at this because, to your point, mayor, the state authorities had decided there wasn't enough there to go after and prosecute, which ultimately was confirmed by a jury of six people. >> let's look at another -- >> michael, it was the same people who didn't want to touch it that ended up being the prosecutor. yes, rick scott did everything you said, about you what rick scott should have done was reach back and do what you do at the federal level. you bring in an individual, independent prosecutor. >> you're right about that, gentlemen. if your combined pin is that team didn't wasn't to prosecute, all the evidence -- at least -- philadelphia mayor michael

nutter, a very good fellow, and special column in "time" this week wrote that it's only the latest in our epidemic of violence in our country. we as a country launched a heartfelt conversation about gun violence, gun safety, and the use of weapons. we lurch from tragedy to tragedy to tragedy, trying to figure out what to do along the way. michael steele, what is your party doing about gun violence? >> well, you know, chris -- >> what is your party doing about gun violence? >> chris, it's not a question about what one party is doing. you can parse it along those lines, but it's about what we as a nation are doing on gun violence, because i go back to my original point at the beginning, you know, we had after sandy hook, the nation call out the sax it wanted taken. democrats and republicans failed to respond to that action. but to the mayor's point, i agree with him about all those

incidents that he cites, but he failed to cite chicago 2012. he failed to cite the cases of inner city violence that occurred just this weekend. this is a broader question than just laying it at the lap of the gop. yeah, we can do more, there's no doubt about it. we do need to decouple ourselves a little bit i think from some of the harsher aspects of what the nra is pushing, but at the end of the day, this is something that all of us as a country have to solve. we could look to just democrats or republicans to get this soft themselves. >> why did every single republican u.s. senator vote not to close the gun show loophole? >> you know, again, it is from the lobbying, the interesting and all of the other aspects that go into the strength that the current gun lobbies have and the hold they have over our congress. look, you've got democrats who didn't want to dance on this pinhead either, chris. yeah you have a bigger number of

republicans, but don't forts the democrats in red states and the purple states that are slightly conservative for them. they had to make that challenge, meet that challenge as well. >> chris -- >> we're running out of time. go ahead, sir. >> democratic party needs to assume additional efforts and leadership on behalf of dealing with the gun issue. the way to do that is move away from where the nra happens to be. the nra is doing the bidding of those whom they say actually have the guns. when you want to do something about automobile safety, you deal with the driver, but you primarily deal when you think of air bags and seat belts, brakes, headlights and taillights, all those things, you go to the guy who makes that car. we need to go to the people who make these guns. there's a better opportunity as a democratic party to deal with

the gun issue if we refocus our attention to those who make the weapons. >> unfortunately the republican party has just listed the guy who makes the car horn. thank you mayor willie brown. >> oh, chris. >> thank you michael steele. coming up, the vice president here who said i could have been -- will speak. dwight this gentleman has found himself looking down the barrel of a police gun. he has a story to tell that i didn't hear until recently. and the missing man in obama care emerges. there's evidence it's cutting across prices -- cutting prices across the country. that's even better. and watch darrell issa pretend he's not accusing the white house of -- just as he accuses washington, as he calls it, of uses the irs, speaking

with a forked tongue, he is. and what got lewis black to make this fake ad campaign against texas governor rick perry. >> don't mess with texas? no, don't [ bleep ] with new york. that man gets angry as well as funny. that's in the sideshow. this is "hardball," the pla is for politics. wi drive a ford fusion. who is healthier, you or your car? i would say my car. probably the car. cause as you get older you start breaking down.

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welcome back to "hardball." the george zimmerman verdict and the tragedy surrounding trayvon martin has brought back memories for many black-american men who see themselves as trayvon martin. their stories are all too familiar and moving. as vice president here at nbc news, he broke hi violence today about what he calls, quote, the long suppressed memories that last week's verdict ignited, realizing that he could have been trayvon martin and didn't even know it. he says, quote, dwight as a teen i ended up looking down the barrels of police guns. i had completely forgotten about those incidents, but the zimmerman verdict opened that door again. we, he strongly believes that race plays the role in decisions people make every day. both growing up and now as a successful professional

african-american man. as the zimmerman verdict sparks a nationwide conversation on race, could something positive perhaps comes from this verdict for all of us, regardless from race? joining mess to discuss this is val nicholas. also with us is msnbc political analyst michael steele. i asked him to stay over and join in in this conversation. val, you don't usually do television, but you make it possible by being one of the executives here. tell us, especially white people who don't know the world as fully as you know it, what happened to you as a teenager? >> interesting. when i was younger, and i was an qa" student, a student athlete. i never lived in a hood. i don't even know what one is like, i've never been there, but twice i ended up looking down the barrel of guns, which was completely unexpected. one time i was waiting for a bus at a bus stop waiting for go to

my after-school job. suddenly two chp, california highway patrol cars jumped on the floor the middle island. both screamed up, guys jumped out with guns screaming for me to get my hands up, and lay down on the ground. eventually they threw me down to the ground, asked me if i was some person. i said no, i'm not. she asked me for i.d., which fortunately i had a work i.d. that had a picture on it, otherwise i probably would have gone to jail, and they realized i wasn't the guy, so they decided okay, and they jumped in their car and took off. they never said, hey, sorry about that, they never said, hey, are you okay? nothing. they just took off. the second time i was at a convenience store, and unfortunately at that time i had just cashed my work check, so i had it in my jacket pocket, and suddenly somebody came up behind me and said don't move a muscle. i thought, okay, and i glanced back, and i saw the barrel of a

shotgun at the back of my head. it turned out what it was was the guy -- the clerk had accidentally stepped on the switch that calls the police when there's a robbery, and so they responded. what i was thinking the whole time is oh, my god, this is the only money i have, maybe i should try to sneak it out and stick it into the sfak thing. if i would have done that, i would have been dead instantly, because i turned around and it was a police officer. what really got me at the time is there were a lot of other customers in the store, but i was the only one with a gun on me. i want let me go to michael steele. what's your reaction to hearing that story? >> you know, it is a story of a lot of young african-american males, whether they're from the hood or from, you know, or not. it doesn't matter. what val, myself and so many other have in common is black skin. a lot of the perceptions that go along with that. as i tell my young boys, my two

sons are in their early 20s, particularly when they got their driver's license, i said, look, if you ever get pulled over by a cop action and you likely will. turn all four down windows, turn on the dome light. put your hands on the steering wheel, don't move and answer yes, sir, and no, sir. that mind-set is passed on, it has to be, because i think as val just pointedly said, if he had done what anybody else could have done, it likely would have led to his arrest or his being killed. so there is this dynamic at play here that's come to the surface as a result of the trayvon martin case that causes an introspecs among a lot of african-american men, particularly those who are talking to their sons as they go out in the world about what it means tore a blackman in america. >> let me ask you about a practical thing, value. you and i talk about it once in a while about everything except this. i want to ask about speed

limits. you drive the garden state, 95, you know, you see a black guy stopped. i always wonder, what is this about? i see it all the about. is it a guy speeding? is he two miles over the speed limit -- most of us travel about five miles over the speed limit. we assume there's a grace period. do you think police grabbed african-americans within that grace period that other people seem to be operating by. >> i'll give you a story. when i was a young producer at a local television station in california, i finally earned enough money to get a decent car besides that piece of junk i had. i bought a nice bmw. what i found was during the week when i was dressed like this, not a problem, but on the weekend when i was wearing a t-shirt and ball cap, police cars would do what i called the five-block follow. they seidel up best hind me, follow me for five blocks while running my plates, and then would veer off. at first i didn't notice it, but

i realized every weekend -- >> so long enough to do a check. you're laughing, michael. is there a common history? >> my gosh, yes. i was in a suit, i mean, i didn't have the running suit or the t-shirt. i was cutting through rockne park, and the park police kind of 3u8d up behind me. it was at dusk, getting dark. he followed me all the way out of the park. all the way out of the park. and so -- i'm sitting there thinking am i going too fast? too slow? what whats it? i almost wanted to pull over, and ask why, but i knew it would open a can of worms i didn't need to open. >> how do you moderate yourself or modulate yourself? this is fascinating, like when you go to a store, i've heard cases where people follow you, they claim to be attentive, but in a nasty way. >> exact.

my father not unlike michael, when i was young, taught me -- he said, if you end up in a situation with the police or security or whatever, never argue, just capitulate. he said there's only three results that can happen from that. one, you go to jail. two, you go to the hospital, three you go to the more. he told me that when i was about like nine or ten years old. >> we have to continue this conversation, gentlemen, privately and on television. i'll just tell you one thing. i'm speaking for all white people, but especially who have had to try to change. a lot of them have really tried to change. i'm sorry for this stuff. that's all i'm saying. thank you, gentlemen, for both being colleagues of mine. we'll be right back after this. [ brent ] this guy's a pro, herbie.

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back to "hardball." now to the sideshow. oops. governor rick perry has launched a million dollar ad campaign to lure businesses from new york to his home state of texas. as you might imagine native new yorkers resent his meddling, but no one is more indignant than lewis black. >> this is new york, the city that never sleeps. people come here from all over the world. for the freedom to live as they choose, for the variety of cultures, but most of all, for the fact that it's not texas! [ buzzer ] you say that everybody is bigger in texas? we have a 300-feet beacon of liberty. you have a whatever the [ bleep ] this thing is. you say we've got too much regulation? we've got wall street. they break the law for a living and never get punished.

new yorkers go to the bathroom anywhere they want. we love the smell of urine. it smells like freedom. they all come from different places, but we all agreed on one thing. >> no, no, no texas. >> rick perry, you are a schmuck. >> remember the alamo? neither do we. >> don't mess with texas? no, don't [ bleep ] with new york! talk about throwing down the gauntlet. next, a group that calls itself hack marriage is redefining marriage, literally. it seems that after the ruling against doma, the group of activists is taking matters into their own hands, updating the intrigue for marriage in dictionaries in various book stores across san francisco. to boot, these rogue pranksters are filming themselves in the act. the video that you're just watching shows them retrofitting the books at barnes and noble,

target, even left-leaning city lights bookstore where i spent this afternoon. is this an act of vandalism or just a prank? weigh in on our facebook page. and finally, an historic landmark. netflix "house of cards" which i love has been nominated for nine emmys, including best drama and best lead actor and actress. it's the first time a digitally distributed show has made the cut, and it marks a turning point in the history of tv. kevin spacey plays the frank underwood, no stranger to washington, you could even say he's costarred alongside bill clinton. here's their bit from the 2000 correspondents dinner. >> i want to thank the cad me for this tremendous honor. this may be the greatest moment of my life. i mean, ever since i was a little boy, i saided to be a real -- actor.

c'mon, who's the better actor? up next, selling obamacare. it's about time. it's lowered costs in 11 states so far. why did it take until today for the president to get out in the fight. he did well today. i hope he catches up. this is the place for politics. ♪ pnc virtual wallet®. for seeing the big financial picture. for knowing the days your money is going out, and when it's coming in. for having danger days, to warn you when you're running a little low. for help seeing your money in a whole new light go to pncvirtualwallet.com and see everything pnc virtual wallet® has to offer. pnc bank. for the achiever in you®. always go the extra mile. to treat my low testosterone, i did my research.

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i'm mary thompson with your cnbc market wrap. records marked again a wall street as the dow hits a new high. the s&p climbing 8 to have hid a report of its own. the nasdaq finishes up a point. in a huge sign of confidence, moody's just upgr e upgraded the outlook on the u.s.

credit rating. in the meantime detroit just became the largest city in u.s. history to file for bankruptcy after a dead kay of declining population. now back to "hardball." we're back. think about this. the republicans were convinced that obamacare will be as unpopular as they say they will be, would they be trying so desperately to scuttle it. told you so. instead you had the gop today actively rooting for it to go badly at the outset. you had them making purely symbolic -- yesterday marked the 38th and 39th attempt by the house of representatives to repeal the measure. maybe what they're afraid of is the law will succeed and become popular. as paul krugman wrote,

conservatives -- it's an attack on everything they believe. what could be worse? for them, that is the reality is in order for the law to workses the american public, need to buy into it literally, and president obama made a strong pro-push. hitting back at republican efforts at obstruction. here he is. yesterday, despite the way the law is works the way it's supposed to, republicans in the house of representatives voted for nearly the 40th time do dismantle it sometimes i just try to fick out why. make they think it's good politics, but part of our job here is not to always think about politics. part of our job here is to sometimes think about getting work done on behalf of the american people, on behalf of

the middle class, and those striving to get into the middle class form. >> the white house says it has a strong message and see people already reaping the benefits, where costs are set to fall by an average the 50% next year. sam is near and nia malika henderson are here. i i can think of three great reasons the republicans are doing what they're doing. they could create such a political atmosphere by the next year they'll lose a lot of votes, and third bakley what else -- i'm not sure, just make life miserable. sam, it is smart politics on the republican side to just trash this thing again and again and again, with hopes they'll be proven right, i guess. >> chris, you just had the rick perry moment.

>> i think you're right about this, part of what the republican calculation here is you have to kit it now some of the benefits will start to accrues. if these exchange do get off the ground, it will prove the thesis wrong action so this a last gasp. if that's what they want, you're seeing it in some of the information campaigns, convincing the telephone not to participate to make sure that people knew that the exchanges exist, that was done so the law wouldn't work. no other reason. they want the law repealed. they used to say they wanted it replaced, but they want it repealed. they're worried about it will be so entrenched they won't be able to repeal it later. >> the third reason, by the way, is they want people to think of bad ways how it would be difficult so it will be. it gets into your head.

the real number three on my list, is they're afraid it will be popular. nobody turns it down, and with medicare, nobody even the most conservatee and i think they're afraid where people will say i needed it, i got it and i'm happy. >> that's right. they're particularly looking at young males, working-class males, who need to sign up for this thing to make it work, and republicans are betting they've spent a lot of money on this, let's face it, that's why they were able to win the house in 2010. but also they've got some leverage here. where there isn't going to be an expansion of medicaid, it would be difficult for the very poor

to actually get insurance. >> when you say states like -- well, they're states with republican governors. a lot of these are states that have -- >> you mean backwater states? >> i mean, i'm from a backwater state, from south carolina, so i don't like to refer to them as that, but i don't think nikki haley is going to expand medicaid, so you'll have a lieutenant of people who aren't going to be able to take advantage of this new law. >> he's going at making this stuff. here he is finally make -- the battle being waged, and efforts by republicans to republicans to sabotage it. here he is today in the east room. let's watch. >> i recognize there's still a

lot of folks in this town rooting for this law to fail. some of them seem to think this law is about me. it's not. i already have really good health care. it's about the dad in maryland, for the first time ever saw the premiums go down instead of up. it's about the grandma in oregon whose free mammogram caught her breast cancer before it had a chance to spread. it's about the mom in arizona who can afford heart surgery for her little girl now that the lifetime cap on her coverage has been lifted. >> i think i have a reason why the president hasn't been so great at this. he's obviously inspirational speaker. it's this -- the real beneficiaries of this system are going to be those tens of millions who now rely primarily on the e.r. they don't have any health care, whether it's -- they race over

and spend ours waiting on the room. politically they may not be a strong voting groups. not desperately struggling you or it cost too much in terms of having a full strength health care program. explain what i'm getting at, because i know i'm getting at something. s. >> you're absolutely right. a lot of the debate takes place in the abstract. people who are healthy don't think about what will happen when they get sick. the second reason i think that the president in the white house underestimated the difficulty is when they looked at the bill, they said, wow, we're giving away free money, essentially, we will match -- pay for medicaid,

and then pay 90% of it. how could anyone possibly turn that down? even the governor -- legislature wsh not going to have this. i think there's two miscalculations, one and two they thought the money would be alluring, vemplgually they would drop the opposition. >> nia, he's already underestimated the hostility to him as a person. >> and i think he's overestimated the power of the bully pulpit. if you look at the numbers going back to -- budged on this. you have a bit more of the public doesn't like health care for various reasons. i don't know if a speech like this will move the needle. i think the rubber meets the road come 2014 when young people

decide whether they're going to sign up for this thing. >> the needle gets moved by word of mouth. it's when people start going to the exchanges say i got this great coverage, it's cheap. that's when the popularity comes on. >> i've got to go. saturday radio on this every week for weeks to use it as a way to keep educating people. it will take a while. sam stein, nia malika henderson, thank you. darrell issa may want to present he's not accusing the white house or the -- but today he did it again. the implication is again and again, obama did it. and he didn't. this is "hardball," the place for politics. i think farmers care more about the land

than probably anyone else. we've had this farm for 30 years. we raise black and red angus cattle. we also produce natural gas. that's how we make our living and that's how we can pass the land and water back to future generations. people should make up their own mind what's best for them. all i can say is it has worked well for us.

be sure to catch or edition this weekend. join us as we address the big question about race in america's future. and also celebrate 11 great years on the air. i'll have some last thoughts as we close out a great run. we'll be right back. [ female announcer ] made just a little sweeter...

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i want to caution the ladies and gentlemen on both sides of the aisle here, we will work with what we know, and we will work to find out what we do not know. i, for one, and i hopeknow. and i for one, and i hope everybody on both sides dais will correct something that is not evidence. when i say something goes to the office of the consul of the irs, that is not to be construed as the office of the president or to the consul himself. it is important we understand that words matter, nuances matter, and that we not go one step beyond what we know. >> that's rather unctous, wasn't it? that was republican chairman darrell issa of california with curious words at today's irs hearing. issa has been the gop architect of the narrative that the white house ordered the irs target conservative groups.

which some of his republican colleagues have used to make the outrageous claim the white house sent the irs a nixonian enemies list. in usa today flat out asked the question was the targeting of the tea party applicants directed from the white house? well, the irony in issa's statement was not lost on his colleagues, including representative connelly, a democrat from virginia. >> it's a terrible thing when the narrative we have in our heads don't work out because the fax just don't back them up. >> will the gentleman yield? >> i will in a second, mr. chairman. in fact, before i yield, a quote from the chairman on national television, because he just assured us he never linked the president to this. and i read this quote. "this was the targeting of the president's political enemies effectively, and lies about it during the election year so that it wasn't discovered until

afterwards." now that's the narrative. and there is no evidence, including from these two witnesses today that that's true. >> well, the facts of the case so far have not stopped issa. he announced he is expanding the irs investigation. issa says the hc's chief council is part of the group that reviewed complex issues involved in tea party applications. we're joined by elijah cummings. i keep thinking about that phrase bang your way out of a paper bag. i mean, how do you get out of this endless morass. this chairman will not stop calling witnesses. he will not ever say it's over. it seems like he is going to go on and on and on until people fr forgot there was a beginning or ever will be an end. >> clearly, he called two irs witnesses today out of 16 that we have interviewed. and every witness, first panel and second panel, including ig

george said that there has been no white house involvement. there has been no political motivation involved in these decisions. and chairman issa had to admit on the one hand that there was no political involvement, no white house involvement, but at the same time he left the door open, basically saying through the usa today article and some statements that he made during the hearing that he still blames the president. so, you know, it's sad. we have had 16 interviews so far, chris. and every single interview people have said no white house involvement, no political motivation. but yet and still -- and by the way, those were republicans and democratic members of the irs, people who work for the irs. he didn't call any republicans today. he called others, but not the republicans, who even one republican out of washington, an irs employee, a veteran lady

said, look, these allegations that was a political enemies list of the president we were targeting and all this, she says it's laughable. but yet and still he continues to march down that aisle. and i think basically those are the talking points of the republican party. >> let's get back to the seat of this hurricane that was the inspector general's report. >> yeah. >> the inspector general report i understand under testimony said that he now realizes that there were progressive groups targeted. and he never knew that when he issued his report. >> well, he knew that they were on the bolo, be on the lookout for a form. but he never talked to us about it. and chris, the interesting thing, he claims the tea party folks were treated differently, but he also admitted that he never has investigated what happened to the progressive groups. and he also, chris, has stood in the way of us getting certain information that irs wants to

give us with regard to this investigation, but he has personally blocked that information from coming to us. and that -- the first time in talking to the folks at irs, they said they don't even remember a time that an ig actually blocked them from providing information to congress. >> you know what i think is disturbing, that you're a lone voice out there, and you know you're ranking member, it's your role to play. but do you think there are a lot of members of the democratic caucus who are afraid to get in the defensive mode because it's by nature an unpopular institution? >> i think members are -- i think members want to know the truth. they are learning the truth. they are seeing that there is not one scintilla of evidence regard to things being with the president and others. but i think they also know that there are problems within the irs itself. the ig has already told us that. and that's what we ought to be about, chris, trying to straighten out those problems. and the president by the way has made some giant steps towards

doing that. >> thank you so much, u.s. congressman eliemg gentleman cummings, ranking member on the committee and form. we'll be right back after this. bp supports nearly 250,000 jobs here. through all of our energy operations, we invest more in the u.s. than any other place in the world. in fact, we've invested over $55 billion here in the last five years - making bp america's largest energy investor. our commitment has never been stronger. wi drive a ford fusion. who is healthier, you or your car? i would say my car. probably the car. cause as you get older you start breaking down. i love my car. i want to take care of it. i have a bad wheel - i must say. my car is running quite well. keep your car healthy with the works. $29.95 or less after $10 mail-in rebate at your participating ford dealer. so you gotta take care of yourself? yes you do. you gotta take care of your baby? oh yeah!

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let me finish tonight with the martin family. a lot of defense attorneys over the years have opposed giving rights to the families of the victims. i think that's wrong. i think it's vital when we speak about murder cases, including capital cases are where execution is a possible sentence that we consider the alleged criminal act itself. we need to look at what happened, the full horror of it,

and that includes the horror and loss done to the families of the person killed there is nothing colder than to pretend that the purpose of the law, the emotions of a jury, for example, should only be swayed by the punishment facing the accused. the jury should also see before it in the courtroom the price incurred by the crime, the horror inflicted on the victim, as seen in the eyes of the family this close to the victim. i know this isn't a popular notion, or hadn't been before this trial of george zimmerman, but perhaps now seeing the martins, and hearing their grief, we have a stronger sense that when it comes especially to this sentencing, the scales of justice must be weighed for the victim as well as for the defendant. just a thought. and that's hardball for now. thanks for being was. "politicsnation" with al sharpton starts right now. nearly 17 months ago on a rainy night in sanford, florida 17-year-old trayvon martin was shot and killed. fiveay