carolina. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. have a great weekend. "hardball" starts right now. weiner weary and stay classy san diego. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start tonight with this. the new yorker magazine for next week has anthony weiner mounted up on the empire state building tv helicopters swarming around and above as he takes pictures of the tower's pinnacle. it wouldn't be -- it would be hilarious if it weren't for the fact it's dominating democratic politics in this world. weren't we the country that taught the world that people had the brains and judgment to pick their own leaders? didn't we say, certainly churchill did that democracy is the best form of government.

yet, here we are watching this guy at the top of the empire state building contending still he wants to be mayor and leader of the world's greatest metropolis, what john lennon once called the consciousness at the center of the universe. the circus has come to town. the question is, when is it going to leave? meanwhile on the ranch, or out of the west coast, a real life mayor already two weeks for therapy after dramatic charges for sexual misbehavior in the workplace, charges for which he now asks forgiveness. finally some good news for weiner, a brief eclipse of the sun in which a solar system in which he has been the moon of the hour. steve kornacki and kelly goff. political correspondent. kelly, i want to start with you. i think you're on this beat. let's take a look at this woman, her name is sydney leathers. i guess that's her real name on "inside edition." let's listen to her.

here's what she had to say. >> i felt manipulated. >> why? >> because obviously, i felt like you know, he's saying one thing to me, saying another thing to his wife, saying another thing on the campaign trail. i don't know who the real anthony weiner is i guess. i really truly believe that he needs some help. and i'm not saying that in a condescending way. i really think that he has some issues that he needs to work out. and i don't think he's fit to be mayor of new york city. >> when did things turn dark and dirty? >> very quickly. >> who prompted that? >> him. >> so anthony weiner moved your conversation from professional to dirty? >> yes. >> well, that's putting it directly. let me go to kelly on this. you know, i guess i don't like the line of questioning. i guess it's inevitable what happened here. and inevitably, you ask is this guy decent enough to be mayor. now we find out today once again he's running for mayor of new

york. what he wants is a promotion. let's not forget, he was a u.s. congressman, one of dozens in the new york area. now he wants to be the job he always wanted. he wants a promotion because of all the mess he's caused here. i'll say this for spitzer, who is coming on the show on monday. at least he understands the need for demotion from governor to comptroller of the city of new york. open humility and regret. this guy wants to be rewarded. and he says if you don't forgive me and reward me and make me mayor, there is nothing wrong with you. you're being judgmental and weird. if you don't back me, you got a problem. >> i think the one quote on twitter said it best, when did new yorkers' self-esteem become so low we decided anthony weiner is the mayor we deserve? i think that kind of says it all. >> tell me why 16% of the people after they knew about this, which is a big chunk of votes in a city that doesn't seem to want to make up its mind where christine quinn, even with this windfall of good news i suppose for her, she's only got a quarter of the votes.

he's still in the running based upon the latest polling. i mean that. he's in the running. he could get second or a strong third. he could still win this thing. i don't care what anybody says. there will people that will say you know i'd prefer mr. weiner. what are they talking about. >> when i first got out of college, in my previous life, i worked as an operative here in new york politics. i'll tell you a little of what is going on, chris. there's a very strong abq contingency here in new york, and that's anybody but quinn. we could have a separate conversation why that is. what i've heard from a lot of people, they're trying to hence their bets on which candidate they think is most likely to take out christine quinn. now, for some of them, they think that anthony weiner was that guy. they still think he may be that guy for fundraising and other reasons. but that's why there is still sort of a split vote here. you didn't see immediate evaporation of his support. >> what's the knock on quinn? quickly. >> a lot of people feel she's responsible for giving mayor bloomberg a third term. >> wait a minute.

they voted for mayor bloomberg for a third time. >> barely. >> the people voted -- let me tell you. they had an election in new york and bloomberg won it. >> can i say i got done writing about this because of bill thompson. bill thompson was outspent 10-1. president obama would not campaign for bill thompson and thompson still came within less than 5% of beating mayor bloomberg. >> i know. i know. i've said that before, kelly. he ran a hell of a race. in fact, i urged one of my kids to vote for him living in new york. i don't know if he did or not. i think he ran a heroic campaign against big bucks. by the way, it is a complicated matter when it comes to bloomberg. he is very competent. he doesn't embarrass anybody. he does the job. his politics have always been in the middle. i don't think he's that bad of a mayor. i don't know where i would vote if he ran again against this field. looks pretty good, doesn't he? >> there's a lot of people who had a real issue with the third term and the way that he got that, overturning the charter and the whole thing. it was a bit of the giuliani fiefdom sense of a boy king. that was where some of the

resentment for quinn comes from. >> hillary clinton's closest to weiner's wife. could this really affect them? here is what jim manley said, a very respected guy here in washington, a former top aide to senators ted kennedy and harry reid. he said he could be a ticking time bomb threatening the clinton brand. the fact that weiner continues to run continues to put the clintons in a tough position. he's a mini weapon of mass destruction ready to blow up any second. your thoughts on that? >> he is ready to blow up any second. but we might be watching him blow up right now. you're talking about the 2016 presidential race. we're talking about july, 2013 right now. >> suppose he wins. >> okay. then he's a ticking time bomb that could have long-term implications. there's a greater likelihood at this point that anthony weiner will fizzle out, he'll lose the preliminary in september and he is going to be an after thought by 2016. if you want anthony weiner off the stage, that's the best thing you can hope for is he stays in this race and doesn't just lose in september, he loses badly and comes in near the back of the

pack, at the back of the pack in a way that gets him off the stage for good. >> steve, you work for msnbc now. i guess you're entitled to an opinion. i am. is your opinion he's really out of it? he's not going to be elected? is that your opinion? >> yeah, i think so. the amazing thing is before this week, i think there was a very real chance anthony weiner could have won this week. we looked how high his negative numbers were before this week. he improved significantly as i his two months as a candidate. his negative numbers were on par with christine quinn's. now there has been a ceiling imposed. we will not win now. >> kelly, can you say that or are you still reporting live here that you can't give us the verdict that i'm always looking for on the show, what's going on? >> i think anthony weiner is as likely to become mayor as i am. i'm not running. that tells you. >> i've only gotten to know you, but i think you would be in the rung. >> well, thank you. >> thank you, kelly golf and steve kornacki. from the east coast, a growing scandal. maybe it's topped already out on the west coast. remember the anchorman who said stay classy san diego?

well, there are some women now on the record on tape, five of them that i can count, accusing san diego mayor bob filner of sexual misconduct in the office. on monday, his former communications director filed a lawsuit against him and spoke to the media about some of his conduct. listen closely to this, these are axzs, accusations, of course, but he hasn't denied them, which is interesting. listen to this graphic information we're about to get how the this fellow behaves at work. >> i was placed in in the filner headlock and moved arounds a rag doll while he whispered sexual comments in my ear. mayor filner challenged me to give him one example of how his behavior towards me was improper. i pointed out that he had asked me to work without my underwear on. he had no comeback. >> well, the headlock ought to grab your attention. who is this guy, godzilla? yesterday four more women came

forward with their own stories all of them, as you will see, on the record, on tape about the mayor they worked for or worked with. here they are. >> he came up to me after the event was over. i was talking with friends. and he came up and gave me a hug and then he touched me actually groped me on my backside inappropriately. >> he's held me too tight. kiss on the cheek which is inappropriate. hand on the knee that lasted too long. >> on numerous occasions, he's put me in what i guess now is the famous headlock, and he would come in and try and kiss me on the lips and i'd have to squirm to get away. and just as recently as a few months ago, this happened. and i turned and he just slobbered down my chin and i was so violated and i was so offended. >> as we were leaving the office, all the guys left. and i was the last one in the room. and bob stepped between me and the doorway and he stopped me. and he got very close to me.

and he ran his finger up my cheek like this. and he whispered to me, do you have a man in your life? >> this afternoon, filner, the mayor, spoke to the press apologizing for his conduct and announcing he was entering a behavioral counseling clinic for a couple weeks, but he said he's not stepping down. here he is. >> let me be absolutely clear. the behavior i have engaged in over many years is wrong. my failure to respect women and the intimidating contact i engage in at times is inexcusable. beginning on august 5th, i will be entering a behavior counseling clinic to undergo two weeks of intensive therapy to begin the process of addressing my behavior. this intensive counseling will just be the first step in what will be a continuing program that will involve on going regular counseling. i must become a better person. >> joining us now is the city council president.

of san diego. what do you make of all this? you probably have a pretty clear picture of the way he behaves in the office and how he deals with men and women. does this all surprise you? is this old school behavior? he seems to put it in the category of old school 20, 30 years ago behavior. but the headlock and grabbing the leg, i don't think that was acceptable, i don't think going back to the madmen era you could do that stuff and not have people think it was appropriate. your thoughts. your experiences. >> you're exactly right, chris. this was never acceptable behavior. it's not acceptable today. and to what observations i've had, we've had a number of run-ins with our mayor. he actually had one of our deputy city attorneys forcibly removed from a closed session meeting of the city council after a verbal altercation. i mean, the gentleman runs a very hot. so we're not necessarily surprised by this inappropriate behavior. but i think what we are surprised by is the level of harassment, the lack of consent with these women, and the fact that it has very real, serious

implications now to the city in the form of these lawsuits coming forward. >> should he be removed? >> he absolutely should. myself and a super majority of our city council said he must resign. just last night, the democratic party has called on the mayor to resign. this is significant. >> what are the procedures for removing him? what are the procedures? >> well, we only have two available to us. one is for him to resign which is what he should do. the other is a recall process which is lengthy, expensive and uncertain. that's why so many of us are calling on him to resign to end the civic nightmare as quickly as possible and let us move on. >> do you think it's a matter of controllable behavior which he might be able to manage after some -- i don't think therapy is the right word. two weeks of therapy doesn't seem like enough to fix anybody. do you think it's possible he would be correctable? >> i don't. i don't understand how in 2013, you have to be educated about what appropriate behavior is with women. and he clearly has a problem with women. is he more or less admitted it. he said to a reporter he has a monster living within him. this man is running the eighth

largest city in the country. >> you believe he's incorrigible. >> i don't believe it's fixable. i really don't. and if it is nextable, god bless him, let him do it, but on someone else's dime. we are america's finest city, the eighth largest city in this country. we need a mayor who can run the city. this one can't do it. >> todd gloria, thank you so much. chairman of the san diego city council. stay classy, san diego. and a programming note, monday on "hardball," we're joined by eliot spitzer. can't wait for this. we'll have a very interesting discussion. it will be within bounds. i think there's some questions he's got to answer about his decision to run for public office again. we'll ask him about that. coming up, another civil war in the republican party, and this time it's the hawks versus the doves. i love this fight. new jersey's chris christie slammed rand paul, the party's fronts runner all the polls saying the intellectual debate he's leading over privacy when it comes to fighting terrorists is downright -- it's his word -- dangerous. he's picking a fight in the republican party. it the republican party however still the hawk party it was under w? i'm not so sure. plus, what are we to make of the

juror in the zimmerman case who is out there saying the defendant got away with murder? she says in her heart, zimmerman was guilty. she voted to acquit. based on the evidence and under the law, she said she had to. now she feels she owes the martin's family an apology. why would she apologize if she felt the verdict was correct? this is complicated, and we're going to get to it. and the latest report in our unkindest cut series. this time how the across the board spending cut known as the sequester is costing america 1.6 million jobs. and let me finish tonight with the republicans' civil war over war. and this is "hardball," the place for politics.

take a look at this. the favorability rating of the united states supreme court is below 50% for the first time in nearly three decades. that's according to new polling from the pew research center. 48% of those polled say they have a favorable opinion of the court while 38% have an unfavorable opinion. here's the big one. a big sharp drop among african

americans. 44% of african-americans now have a favorable opinion of the court versus 38% who have an unfavorable. back in march, not so long ago, six in ten african-americans said they viewed the court favorably before its recent ruling that struck down a key part of the voting rights act. i can understand it clearly. we'll be right back. so we could be a better, safer energy company. i can tell you - safety is at the heart of everything we do. we've added cutting-edge technology, like a new deepwater well cap and a state-of-the-art monitoring center, where experts watch over all drilling activity twenty-four-seven. and we're sharing what we've learned, so we can all produce energy more safely. our commitment has never been stronger.

welcome back to "hardball." hawkish foreign policy has been an ideological hallmark of the republican party for years now. think about it. from the reagan days of military involvement in lebanon and grenada, to bush senior's first gulf war to w's bush doctrine, war on terror and the invasion of iraq. the party's core identity all these years. it's the calling card. it's been internationalism and interventionism. but a new libertarian wing of the republican party has exploded onto the scene in recent years, led by fire brands like rand paul, they've risen to power by preaching our national interest does not lie in those wars of choice. they filibuster against the use

of drones, they fight the nsa. they want no part of the war in syria or revolution in egypt. their weaponry lies with a strict reading of the constitution, not a loose international notion or interpretation of national security. that split in the party, the republican party, isn't sitting well with new jersey governor chris christie, the republican rising star from new jersey. he took aim at rand paul in speaking at the republican governor's forum just yesterday. >> this strain of libertarianism that's going through both parties right now and making big headlines i think is a very dangerous thought. >> senator rand paul, for example? >> listen, you can name any number of people and he's one of them. i mean these esoteric intellectual debates, i want them to come to new jersey and sit across from the widows and the orphans and have that conversation. and they won't. because that's a much tougher conversation to have. >> well, paul, that's the

senator from kentucky, fought back today saying on twitter that, quote, christie worries about the danger of freedom. i worry about the danger of losing that freedom. spying without warrants is unconstitutional. well, is the hawkish wing of the republican party starting to fade? will democrats be able to capitalize on this new division in the gop? i'm fascinated by it myself. david axelrod, an msnbc political analyst and a senior adviser to president obama, and carly fiorina a former senate president out in california. thanks for joining us. i have no idea what you're both going to say, but let me start with this. we've run through the history of the republican party, david. and clearly, they have been if you have to argue back and forth, they're the more hawkish party, the democrats more dovish. the issue of the war in iraq are a war of choice was a key issue i believe and i believe you know

was a key factor in the strong political run by president obama back in '08, start in 2004. do you think the republican party is having guilt about the war in iraq they now feel is unpopular that they're beginning to think this instinctive call to arms, engagement in countries like syria, and lebanon won't pay off at the ballot box? >> first of all, i would quibble with one point which is there has been over time taft and others in the past, there's been a strain of isolationism in the republican party. it's a resurgent now, it's represented by this tea party faction. and, of course, the reality is that we have to find the right place between these two points of view. there are times when we have to act in order to preserve the safety of the american people, but we can't reflexively intervene everywhere. it seems like paul and christie may be moving to stake out, you know, the polls of this debate. and the sweet spot is the middle. that's where most americans are. >> let me go to carly. thanks for joining us, carly. let's take a look at something that happened in the election back in 2008. not 100 years ago. this is when during the debate

when ron paul, the father who has the same policy as his son, when he came out in 2007 and basically took on the issue of why we're getting so hawkish and rudy, who didn't end up winning because he was pro-choice jumped on him like a hawk. it was quite a scene. i wonder if this could be repeated today the same way. here it is. >> we need to look at what we do from the perspective of what would happen if somebody else did it to us. >> are you suggesting we invited the 9/11 attacks, sir? >> i'm suggesting that we listen to the people who attacked us and the reason they did it. >> may i make a comment on that? that's really an extraordinary statement. that's an extraordinary statement as someone who lived through the attack of september 11th that we invited the attack because we were attacking iraq. i don't think i've heard that before. and i've heard pretty absurd explanations for september 11th. >> carly, your view on this, hawk or dove? which way is the party heading? because the democratic party has

been pretty happen happy with some exceptions with the general position as opposing the war in iraq while being very tough on al qaeda. so there's been a bit of a division and emphasis there. different i think than president w. bush. >> well, i think we're conjoining a couple things here. the data point that i would offer up is that the majority of americans today think that edward snowden is a whistleblower, not a traitor. and i think what that data point tells you is that people are actually quite troubled. on the one hand, people want to be safe and they understand that be government is engaged in activities to keep us safe that they didn't used to be. on the other hand, they worry about a government that has vast power that we don't know about and government agencies that we cannot effectively hold accountable. that's a different issue than whether or not you believe we should have been in iraq or not, and there the splits have always existed in the republican party as well as the democratic party.

>> where are you on those issues? the speaker of the house came out the other day and led the republican party in fighting not to restrict the nsa. he's very comfortable with the security state point of approach, this more hawkish approach. where are you on surveillance and where are you on wars like iraq? you're a big republican. >> i believe -- i believe we have to ask now fundamental questions. and i actually would hope that as david axelrod suggested, there is some middle ground here and actually some ground for bipartisan agreement. the big fundamental question is, how do we hold these bureau bureaucracies accountable? how do we know that they are not abusing their power? how do we know that they are competent and ethical? these are huge questions. when the government now has such incredible power, power that we didn't even understand they had six months ago we ought to be asking those fundamental questions. >> let me get back to you in a minute. here's my general question. should the united states be primarily concerned with its own defense? do we have to be careful we

don't get invaded and two days later say somebody says if we'd only done one thing because but we didn't do it because we're concerned about civil liberties. who is going to win that fight? >> are you asking me? >> i'm asking david. if you come out with what looks to be an esoteric argument and you didn't use that power, you're dead politically in this country if you get attacked. >> chris, i worked 20 feet from the oval office for years and i saw the president the national security team grapple with a very real threat of attack. and the tools that are there that the nsa provided were important in thwarting some of those attacks. if we hadn't done it, then we would indeed have had more catastrophic kinds of attacks. i think people would have been outraged about it. but carly is right. we have to be carable about how we do it. that's why we have to have the involvement of all three branchs of government -- congress, the courts and the executive branch. the answer is not to scrap the intelligence gathering that has demonstrably helped keep the

american people safer. >> i don't like this. i'm not comfortable with you two agreeing so much. i'm going to put a question to both you. i think i know the answer with david, who i know much better, and that is this. do you think it was a good thing for america to invade, attack and to overrun and occupy iraq in 2003? was that a smart move? or a mistake? >> i think it was a grave mistake when we were attacked not to go after the people who attacked us but to divert our attention to iraq at great cost of lives and resources while bin laden and the people who attacked us went free for years. and so yes, i think it was a big mistake. that's what i'm saying. i don't think that sort of reflexive of interventionism reflexive attack is the answer to every threat in the world. on the other hand, there are real threats we have to respond to. >> carly fiorina, same question. was it right to invade iraq? yes or no. we know a lot. >> given what we thought we knew at the time, yes.

i supported that decision then, i support it now. however. >> it was a smart decision to go to iraq? >> yes, given what we thought we knew. now it turns out the information was wrong. there were no weapons of mass destruction although virtually every intelligence agency around the world stood together and said yes, he had them. however, big important however. we mismanaged that war tremendously. we had unrealistic expectations. we didn't resource it appropriately. so there were many, many mistakes made. >> my opinion wmd, the claim had nothing to do with that war. the people that wanted that war from dick cheney to the neo-cons the whole batch of them, including w. decided on that war because they wanted to go to war with saddam hussein. number two. >> then you're casting. >> no, afterwards, they said even though there was no wmd, this he said they were still right to invade. how do you square that with your concern about the accuracy of the intel when in the fact the people that purposed the war and

prosecuted it didn't die there, just led it in there said it didn't matter there was no wmd. explain that. >> i think first of all, it's a very good question. >> it sure is. >> you're casting aspersions upon the cia and british intelligence -- >> i'm casting aspersions? >> excuse me, chris. i let you finish. i know the directors of both the cia and british intelligence. i knew them at the time. they were both absolutely convinced, based on the information they had, that is wmd existed, and they would say so to this day. having said all of that, it turned out to be wrong. and yes, i absolutely support ta we need more effective intelligence gathering tools and techniques, but we have to understand how to hold government agencies accountable with this kind of power. we have not had a national dialogue on that. that is why most people think edward snowden is a whistle-blower, not a traitor. this is a big issue. >> okay. you know what? i'll repeat myself. we need somebody with intelligence sitting in the

white house, basic human intelligence. we didn't have one. that war had nothing to do with the quality of our intelligence. i would never blame the cia or the british intelligence. by the way, those 16 words were an embarrassment because cheney wanted them in there. thank you, carly. we just disagree. >> we do. >> i respect you. we disagree. you are a hawk and i am a dove. that's how it works. thank you very much, david. i'm glad you two finally disagreed. i disagree. up next, jane fonda. actually, i like jane fond. and nancy reagan and i like her even more. a lot of republicans are up in arms the famous liberal actress is playing the former first lady. what does nancy think? that's a query. this is "hardball," the place for politics. with the fidelity american express credit card, every purchase earns you 2% cash back, which is deposited in your fidelity account. is that it? actually... there's no annual fee and no limits on rewards. and with the fidelity cash management account debit card, you get reimbursed for all atm fees. is that it? oh, this guy, too.

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proven that this week. what if there was a service that helped politicians indulge their digital perversions, if you will, without the risk? take a look at this parody commercial from conan last night. >> oh, no, there's a picture of my penis on tmz again. that's the fourth time this week. >> oh, well, guess there's nothing i can do about it. >> wait. i can help. >> who are you? >> i'm with the junk squad. we teach congressmen who weren't born in the digital age how to send pictures of their penis safely and discreetly. >> wow. if you're old enough to find computers perplexing, one of our junk squad technicians will personally visit your home, office or governor's mansion and safely guide you through the process from start to finish. >> sounds great. >> first of all, as a high ranking public figure, are you sure you want to send someone you barely know a picture of your penis? >> absolutely, it has to be done. >> okay. then let's do it right. we provide expertise in every

area of secure penis photograph transmission. >> i want to put this into this >> uh, so. if you need to run for public office and send out blurry photos of your disembodied penis, call the junk squad. >> i don't think how that got through. next jane fonda is playing former first lady nancy reagan in an upcoming movie "the butler." while the casting choice drew sharp criticism from detractors on the right, remember hanoi jane? she may have the approval of at least one influential republican. here she was discussing the role yesterday. >> i thought it would be fun to play her. i know people say, oh, my gosh, jane fonda is playing nancy reagan. i don't think whatever differences there might be in our politics really matters as an actor, an approach her as a human being and i happen to know she's not unhappy that i'm playing her. >> i hope she plays her well. she said she heard it from a friend that nancy was okay with

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hello, everybody, i'm betty nguyen. here is what is happening. ariel castro pleaded guilty he held three cleveland women captive for ten years. as part of a plea deal, prosecutors will recommend he get life in prison without parole, plus a thousand years. the driver of the train that crashed in spain killing 78 people has been arrested. he has reportedly admitted to

going 118 miles an hour around the sharp curve when the train crashed. that is more than twice the speed limit. now it's back to "hardball." george zimmerman got away with murder. but you can't get away from god. and at the end of the day, he's going to have a lot of questions and answers he has to deal with. >> welcome back to "hardball." that wasn't a pundit or an activist you saw there. that was an actual zimmerman juror, the last person you would expect to say, quote, zimmerman got away with murder. we'll explain what that meant. maddy is her first name. she won't disclose her last name for obvious reasons. she made that stunning admission on abc news earlier this week. in an interview with robin roberts, maddy explained a bit more about those comments. >> my first thought was second degree murder.

>> a lot of people are wanting to know how did you go, in nine hours, from feeling he was guilty of second-degree murder to not guilty? >> it was hard. a lot of us had wanted to find something bad, something that we could connect to law, because all six of us -- well, let's not speak for all six of us. but for myself, he's guilty because the evidence shows he is guilty. >> he's guilty of? >> killing trayvon martin. but we couldn't prove that intentionally he killed him. and that's the way that the law was read to me. >> trayvon martin's mother put out a statement after hearing that, reacting to maddy's remarks, saying, quote, it's devastating for my family to hear the comments coming from juror b29 which we already knew in our hearts to be true that george zimmerman literally got i a way with murder. how can these two things be true at the same time? how can a juror reach the unanimous verdict of not guilty and zimmerman be guilty of murder at the same time?

the help us what is really going on here, we're joined by keshia hebbin. i'm trying to put this juror's comments together. i'm not going to play hardball with her. she's a civilian. she's a regular person. >> right. >> but if i were tougher, i would say wait a minute. what was lacking here? you said the evidence was there he's guilty of second degree murder then you say that the law and evidence didn't support it. therefore i had to go for acquittal. i don't get from here a clarity as to what she thought happened. if you knew what happened, you would make a judgment whether there was evidence to support what you thought happened. >> right. >> then you would offer a verdict. it would come first from what you thought happened, what you could support from the evidence happened. and then would go a verdict. with her it's a feeling. a feeling that she's had, and obviously has been bothering her to the point where she has to come out publicly with this. but it seems to me, you got a question here with this juror. the question is, how is he getting away with murder if he wasn't guilty of murder. >> right. i think just listening to this

juror's comments leads me to believe that there was some confusion. i also think that with a lot of criminal trials, the jurors fill a certain emotional way about what the verdict should be, but because of the standards, the prosecutor has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that i an crime was committed and also the jurors are given jury instructions which force them to stay within the confines of what the law is. i think with her when she stated you know, i think he's guilty of killing trayvon but there was no proof that he intentionally did it, intent doesn't -- >> she said he's guilt of murder, not killing him. that means intentional. >> clearly, she is confused, but i think what she is conveying is what a lot of people across our country feels. there's not enough proof, which i blame the prosecutor for. >> fair enough. >> but i think the emotional part of he did something wrong is what's going through her head. it shows there's confusion on her part. >> i want you to do interpreting here. do you think she means she doesn't believe his account that

he was on the bottom in fear of his life or grievous bodily injury? and if she did believe that, did she think he was guilty of murder 2? it seems like she couldn't believe both. >> right. >> if she believed his account, she wouldn't believe in murder 2. now, if she did believe his account, where does that take her? why didn't she just say that in her interview with robin roberts, i didn't believe a word he said. or i didn't believe his account. it isn't about feeling. it's about belief. it's what you're asked to do in a jury box. >> right. and that's where we get this verdict from. and i think that she's misinterpreting -- well, she's stating more feeling than what was proven in that courtroom. and i also think which i see in a lot of my cases, oftentimes the jurors, there may be one juror who are feels a particular way but after cussing it with the jury during deliberations, this juror may come back and say you know what? you're right. there's not enough proof. she may have felt wrong to be the one person to say i don't feel it, but i think if she did not believe what she eventually did with acquitting him, she should have spoke up. we would have had a hung verdict.

>> what do you recommend jurors do? it seems to me i've heard from one of our experts the last couple of weeks on this trial, what they tell jurors to do, especially if they're defense attorneys they want an acquittal or at least a hung jury. if they feel overwhelmed or they're simply the minority of opinion, which i'm sure is common, they should hold to that opinion. >> right. >> and what may have happened here is she was asked to explain why she thought the guy was guilty of purposeful deliberate murder in this case, or rather he had a situation where he could have chosen not to kill the guy. he was in threat of his life. and she couldn't do it or couldn't explain it well enough or gave up trying to explain it. what do you think happened? she's now feeling guilt what she did to the point where she's telling everybody about it. >> right. i think the fact that she's feeling guilty to this extent she's expressed on national television shows that she will made a decision that she didn't feel comfortable with, which in a court of law there's no room for that. i believe the judges make that clear to jurors you have to feel

comfortable and you have to convict based or acquit based on the law. i'm not sure if she's confusing emotion with the facts and what the law says, but i think the fact that she believes that he was guilty she should have stuck with that and that would have changed the verdict in this case where it would have been a hung jury. >> yeah, i'm not sure. i can't tell. anyway, thank you for coming on, kisha. kisha hebbon, thank you. up next, the latest on your on going series which we've brought to you the unkindest cut. this time how congress across the board spending cuts are costing the country jobs, 1.6 million because of the sequester. do you believe it? it's not just words. it's jobs. this is "hardball," the place for politics. made" yummy, scrumptious bars. hmm? i just wanted you to eat more fiber. chewy, oatie, gooeyness... and fraudulence. i'm in deep, babe. you certainly are. [ male announcer ] fiber one.

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education and research and infrastructure and defense. it's unnecessary and at a time when too many americans are still looking for work, it's inexcusable. >> there it is, this july. it's still july. it is. this july. it's still july. the autumn offensive has begun. that was president obama calling the budget cuts known as sequestration dumb, arbitrary and inexcusable. he's right. there are more coming. the nonpartisan budget office agrees with the president. the cbo released a study saying the cuts could boost the economy and create 1.6 million jobs over the next year. joining me for the latest installment in our on swrn going series, the unkindest cut, "huffington post" reporter, sam stein, and msnbc political analyst and mother jones washington bureau chief david corn, said with great majesty and importance. what people like to say on the conservative side, government can't create jobs.

i keep saying world war ii did a good job. a base closes somewhere, they say the jobs are going to be lost. so there is government jobs are jobs. they pay well. their families go to school, they go to the movies, they live and eat. all that creates employment for other people. every time we get to an issue of government spending, the republicans say that's waste. >> the republicans basically have been riding for the past two years a fundamental fallacy, which is when the economy goes south and there's contraction, that the government, too, has to tighten the belt is the false cl cliche they use all the time. actually, the government is there to be a counterbalance to what is happening. so you got to keep demand up to keep people employed, to keep jobs going so you don't fall behind economically, domestically or internationally which is just as important. >> progressive economists believe every time the government spends money, it creates jobs. nixon once said, i'm a keynesian, too.

they create jobs. if we go through that, and continue, what's it going to do to the economy? it will achieve what they want, a slowdown to the economy, end to the recovery and they can run against it. >> it certainly will hit a slowdown. the cbo estimates is 300,000 to 1.6 million in terms of jobs lost. we have done a bunch of reporting on this. we did a job with civilian employees at the pentagon who are furloughed because of the sequester. i talked to one of them. she said she hadn't gone out to a restaurant meal in six months. i talked to another guy who was cutting down on his cable bill, basically. all this stuff has a ripple effect. the restauranteur won't get a customer. comcast is going to lose business. we're talking 600,000 pentagon employees who are suffering 11 furlough days. >> you work for comcast now, right? >> i guess, yes. >> put that bulletin up. >> fair enough. >> time warner cable. >> go ahead. >> but the point is still valid. if you start take away little things here and there, and maybe separately it doesn't seem like

that big a deal, but it's going to be aggravated, going to be over time. >> what happens at this fight? you're food good at this, sam, good at this. if we have a battle royale between now and christmas, between the holidays and now, and there is a big fight over government shutdowns, potentially not paying the national debt, offer often having a default. the whole worst horror story. not only does that cause a lot of headlines and a lot of noise, but it has a particular effect on the economy. a, in actual fact, it cuts spending. and b, it kills confidence that we're going anywhere. >> if we hit the debt limit, that's going to have a massive ripple effect in terms of confidence in economic standing. >> who wins? >> there are no winners. the economy losers. >> are you that naive? no winners? >> you don't think rand paul wins? you don't think ted cruz wins? why are they doing it then. >> can extract more promises from the president. >> we went through this in 2011. and if you look at the poll results afterwards, the republicans took a bigger hit than the president. remember -- >> so they're stupid?

so they're stupid? >> they have a theology. they are theological. so they really do believe, you know, these documents they put out yesterday from this group groundswell. again and again they say that the right republicans have to be more conservative and push back even more on spending than john boehner is willing to do. so they are theological to this point. and that's when you get into trouble because if they are theological, they're not prone -- >> what unemployment rate can obama leave the presidency in in 2016 and claim to be a success on the economy? what does it have to be? it's 7.6 now. how long does it have to go for him to say i'm a success? >> there is no way to know that. >> under 7% is good, but it's going to be hard. >> sequestration is a compounding effect. it will build over time. >> thanks, sam stein. thank you, david corn. happy weekend for all of you. all three of you. all two of you. when we return, he me finish with the republicans' civil war over year.

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where do you want to take your business? call us. we can show you how at&t solutions can help you do what you do... even better. ♪ let me finish tonight with this. there's a bar restaurant on capitol hill called the hawk and dove. it's a statement of the chief division of politics in this city going back to the 1960s. are you for the war or against it? in the 1960s, the war was vietnam. hawks like robert mcnamara defended the war until they couldn't anymore. lyndon johnson was planning to run for reelection in 1968 until he couldn't. first gene mccarthy and then robert kennedy campaigned

against the war until bobby was killed and gene just didn't have the fight in him anymore. in this century, the war was iraq. the hawks, w., cheney, and that's how do you pronounce it, just ask him, and the self-stylself-style ed neocons and other republican conservatives backed it to the hilt. then slowly the true conservatives like william f. buckley realized it was not a conflict they could support with full heart. others like rich lowry who also changed their minds. and then a lot of the hawks on the republican party simply began to melt away, stopped running their op-ed pieces, drifted off into wherever people go when anything they say will be used against them. now there is a war in the republican party between the hawks and the doves. the doves are folks like rand paul who think getting engaged in the middle east wars, any of them, is not in our national interest. not a bad thought there and those who are steady at the rampart, even today chris christie of new jersey. i'm not sure what wars either of these gentlemen are used to in

their own lives, but they've got one now between each other. let's sit back and enjoy the show. as long as the rs -- that's the republicans -- are staging a war over whether to fight, we have a decent chance of averting another real one. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. good evening, from new york. i'm chris hayes. tonight on "all in" moments away, in fact, i'll talk with an absolute icon, harry belafonte will explain why he's in florida standing in solidarity with the young people occupying the state capitol. you do not want to miss that. also tonight, bill o'reilly thinks you should be scared of black men. i'll explain why he should be more scared of water. plus, the embattled mayor of san diego staged a face-saving news conference today, and if you thought it was awkward once, wait until you see him do the whole thing all over ai