that a conflict? search "proprietary mutual funds." yikes! then go to e-trade. we've got over 8,000 mutual funds, and not one of them has our name on it. we're in the business of finding the right investments for you. e-trade. less for us. more for you. the fund's prospectus contains its investment objectives, risks, charges, expenses, and other important information and should be read and considered carefully before investing. for a current prospectus, visit etrade.com/mutualfunds. i'm ari melber, and in the cycle today, all democrats, all the time. the president goes to capitol hill and meets with dems on, and the talk is he plans to bypass republicans. and just when you think the weiner for mayor campaign can't get any weirder, we've got the proof it can. >> i'm toure. the battle cry for republicans in 2016 might just be bacon! that's right, bacon! it's christie versus rand and it's sizzling. >> and i'm krystal ball. it's iced by in d.c.

what is secret no more and now it's all a game of gotcha. speaking of gotcha, we've got you in the cycle for the last day of july, 2013. every family has its dysfunction and this is theirs. president obama made the long haul across town to capitol hill today to meet with the house and senate democrats. the goal, as you may have heard, is to get this entire family on the same page before the august vacation. all of congress heads back to their home districts for the month, bringing the party's message directly to citizens and delegates. the dems seem to be in agreement on a short-term strategy. focus on the economy and middle class. but, like any family forced in the same room for a summer reunion, other bickering could always break out. and with this family, it's the long-term plans to tackle the sequester, the funding of the government, and of course, these battles over the debt ceiling, among other things.

today's reunion, i should say, though, did end on a sweet note. a dark chocolate cake to celebrate the president's 52nd birthday this sunday. nothing wrong with that. now for more on today's democratic party reunion on the hill, we start with nbc news capitol hill correspondent, kelly o'donnell. kelly, tell us, what is the reaction today to this meeting with the president? >> first, there was singing. "happy birthday" was sung here. let's get that out of the way. the reaction, i think, is basically an acknowledgement that the president gave time to his fellow democrats, that is always appreciated. they have a lot of the same concerns. and all of them, who are heading home to their districts and states, will be encountering voters who are concerned about these issues. and they want to be on the same page, so the president, very clearly, is trying to steer the conversation to middle class issues, jobs, student loans will be part of it, and the cost of higher education will be something he'll be talking about, over the august recess, when he will be traveling part of the country. so part of it is that.

less about some of the complications related to the new health care law. he did face some questions about that. and he also faced questions about what will be our conversations of the fall, the next battles about budget, and about the debt ceiling. and he promised democrats that he would hold firm on that, and not go into kind of a brinksmanship 11th hour. we'll see what happens then, but that did get applause, according to democrats we talked to. >> interesting. all right, they're girding for battle. nbc's kelly o'donnell, thank you very much. we are joined now by john statton, washington bureau chief at buzz feed. john, i want to get right to the mood in the room with the democrats and the president. these meetings aren't that frequent. and it seems lake the president has some pretty different political goals with the hill. the president is talking about grand bargains or trading corporate tax cuts for some kind of jobs program. and he can afford to be symbolic, or as the white house is putting it, lead on these issues. but on the hill, i've heard and i'm wondering if your reporting

bears this out, there's a lot more anxiety about the bread and butter plan to get through this next round of sniping on debt. what can you tell us about that? >> i think there is, definitely. i think from the sound of it in both the house and the senate meetings, democrats came out of it, sort of repeated the same sort of mantra as obama going into it. short-term, they are going to have this. there's going to be lingering concern of the nuts and bolts of things. he didn't go into that many details. the debt ceiling is something that i think really concerns a lot of democrats. what you can see in the house, when members of the house frankly said, look, are you going to be there for us next year. you've been there, come to us and asked us to do things for us in the path. you say you're finished. are you going to finally come out and really help us? and i think that is the biggest sort of concern driving all of these problems for his members. >> you have a lot of concerned republicans, obviously, john, that thing that some of the meetings today, the president was just deepening that line between the two parties.

but there are some hopeful, there are some senate gop centrists, john mccain, for example, who say, the way that these things usually work out, you talk and you talk and you talk, and suddenly you reach an agreement. that sounds great, but that's not how things have plaid out. we've seen this all played before. but does he have any reason to be optimistic, that something can be reached, at least before they go on break. >> not before they go on break, no, yi don't think so. i think the one positive thing they may be looking forward, at least in the senate, there are certainly a lot more republicans that are talking to the white house, that are willing to discuss things with them, willing to discuss things with democrats. traditionally, it's been sort of up to mitch mcconnell and joe biden in the last couple of years, to in the last few moments of a crisis, to step in and sort of act like the adults and come up with some type of a compromise. with mcconnell facing a very difficult election, potentially, he's not going to be playing that role and people like john mccain have sort of stepped in and there are a lot more of them within the rank and file. at least on that side of the

building, there is some hope that they can do that. on the house side, it's much less clear. with the leadership sort of where it is and their relationship being as poor as it is, i'm not sure that they have much hope. >> john, abby keeps saying the president is deepening the divide, but the years of obstruction have already made it very deep, and now we're moving toward a government shutdown, so everybody just positioning for that to happen, getting themselves in before that comes down the pike. that's the thing that's really defining us right now. >> well, i think both sides are, in effect, doing this. >> thank you, john. thank you. thank you. >> i think you have ted cruz on one side, the president on the other side, and they're both sort of playing this game of chicken with each other, and definitely digging in. whether or not ted cruz is able to force a government shutdown or whether, say, the house republicans are willing to go down that road, i think really remains to be seen. i don't think that there's much chance that the senate is going to pass a budget or a cr that doesn't have spending for obama care in it. so it's unclear if they're actually ever going to get to

that point, but certainly they're both, you know, staring each other down right now. >> it is worth noting there is only one party that actually wants to shut down the government and has threatened to do so before this administration. >> thank you, crystal. >> but looking beyond those battles, towards 2014, it strikes me that some of this, especially the white house and the administration's positioning, is looking forward to 2014. sort of assuming that there's not going to be much progress on jobs, and then they can make the argument clearly, we put a plan on the table, the republicans had nothing to offer. you need to send me a congress that's going to work with me in 2014. do you see that as well? >> oh, absolutely. the president has made it pretty clear that he really wants to try to bring the democrats back in control of the house in 2014. it's not a particularly realistic goal, frankly, given sort of redistricting and things, but that is definitely what he would like. he's hoping that his last two years don't turn into the traditional lame duck period, where absolutely nothing gets done. so that is definitely a big part of the message right now.

>> and finally, you've been reporting a lot on immigration. that's something we're going to be talking about today on the show. why do you think so much of the air has gone out of this? and what is the opportunity to pivot and get action when you clearly have a lot of people, including some conservatives, who say they want to get something done. >> right. well, i think the biggest problem, frankly, is that the house is at a bit of an impasse. republicans in the house are very, very divided on it. you have those who very much want to do a bill on one side. you have those who very much don't want to do the bill on the other. and the vast majority of the republicans are sort of stuck in the middle and are terrified a little bit of going either way. they don't want to be beat up by latino organizations for blocking a bill, but they're also very worried about their primaries next year. and you know, if they look like they're supporting something, the conservatives are going to call amnesty, that's very concerning to them and they're just terrified. so i think this impasse has really sucked a lot of the air out of it. and also, the pivot by conservatives recently towards once again trying to defund

obama care has taken a lot of their energy towards that and democrats have sort of pivoted a little bit with them on that. >> right, it doesn't leave a mood of tremendous good faith and cooperation. john stanton, hardest working man in washington, and we know that by the position of your necktie. thank you, thanks for spending some time with us. >> on that topic, the immigration reform will roll on wednesday, july 31s #. "i'm part of an american success story," "that starts with one of the world's most advanced distribution systems," "and one of the most efficient trucking networks," "with safe, experienced drivers." "we work directly with manufacturers," "eliminating costly markups," "and buy directly from local farmers in every region of the country."

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today president obama pressed the importance of immigration reform in his meetings with dems and told them they are on the right side of history. the gang of eight's current plan could itself have a huge economic impact on america. the cbo says the bill would reduce deficits by about $900 billion over the next two decades. john mccain, this week, predicted comprehensive immigration reform would get through the house, and if it doesn't, quote, the republican party cannot win another national election. i appreciate the senator's optimism and his recognition that national demographics are trending toward whites becoming less than half of america within a few decades, but gop house districts tend to have fewer hispanics than the national average, hence the reason why some house republicans are supporting a new version of the dream act called the kids act, which our next guest calls dream

act lite. that's not a compliment. allowing a young, undocumented to stay without gaining citizenship. you can read more on his take on gop's kids act in his latest nbc latino column. let's welcome back friend of the show, raul reyes, a "usa today" columnist. raul, i find any immigration plan that does not offer a pathway to citizenship to be unacceptable and offensive, because what it sets up is a group of americans who are legally here, but are second class citizens are not able to vote, but they're able to pay taxes. isn't that -- what do they call that, ari, taxation without representation? i think we're against that in america. >> correct, the whole idea behind the kids act, it actually is, in a larger sense, undermining immigration reform. because to me, it's really just a distraction. although it might sound good, when we look closer at the ideas in this kids act, as you mention, it sort of gives these young people a second class kind of citizenship.

which it puts them, they're not fully american, but they have more connection to the country their parents brought them to, so it's an in-between state. it doesn't promote assimilation. and also for these people later down the line, it sets them up for possible discrimination, although they can live and work openly, you have to wonder, if an employer has his choice between hiring someone who's a citizen and someone with this provisional status, who do you think they're going to hire? >> and we talk about, you know, the kids, this is the group we're most sympathetic too when we talk about immigration. and coming from, you know, someone that's been a republican my entire life, it's surprising to me, you know, we talk about values. strong family bonds and strong family relationships, that's something the parties have always appropriated. that's why i fight for gay marriage. because i say, if we support strong families, we should support gay marriages. so that's why i'm all the more surprised when they promote a bill like this that separates family. is this simply symbolic? they know it's not going to

pass. >> you also have to look at the circumstances that we've been talking about this. back in 2010, the original dream act, it was just a stand-alone piece of legislation, that would have helped these young people. now the kids act would likely be tacked on to something, you know, border security measures or increased enforcement measures. so what we would be saying to these people now is, you can sit here, but we will deport your parents. so in that sense, it's actually worse. you know, as you say, it's going to promote, like, dividing families. you know, a type of disunity. and that's why even the dreamers, even they are against it. they do not like it. >> let me push back on the politics here a little bit, if you're okay with being cross-examined, raul. it seems to me that part of what you're saying is, look, this thing is not going to past the senate anyway, so it's pointless. but surely the democrats look in the senate to pass a lot of things that will go nowhere in the republican house or at least nowhere under the rules of super majortarian support in the

house. so it can't be just bad. >> i think it's bad, for one thing, it's very hypocritical. it's giving false hope to these young people who have truly been the dreamers. most people would agree, they have been the true foot soldiers for immigration reform. and to sort of toy with their hopes and literally their futures, i find deeply cynical. and it ignores our political reality. look how latino voters turned out this last time. a large part of this is because the dreamers were out there pressuring democrats, as well as republicans. they have really pushed the movement. they have certainly energized the hispanic community and helped people, you know, participate and followed the debate. so now to, you know, talk about these symbolish measures that are really not, as you say, they're not going anywhere, it's just -- that to me is just so -- it's, in a sense, destructive and undermines, you know, what so many people, on both sides of the aisle, are trying to do. which is to push through and pass a comprehensive proposal. >> and i agree with you about

how critical the dreamers have been in pushing this legislation on capitol hill, but i think they also have put a face to immigration. we used to have this debate that was about sort of scary illegals. and steve king's comments about drug mules were sort of a throwback to that old, dehumanizing debate that we were having. how much have the dreamers impacted the national conversation, not just among politicians, but among average people out there in the country? >> well, i can tell you, they have had a tremendous impact, even among -- even within the hispanic community, because, yes, they put a face on the immigration -- the debate over illegal immigration, but that provokes a conversation with all different types of people. you know, because, first, you say, well, maybe we should allow these young people to stay, because they didn't come here. they were brought. and then you think, well, how can we let them stay if we're going to send their parents away? and then we start to say, well, what are we going to do, we

can't support this whole population. so they have really been instrumental, particularly in bringing on some groups like, save the evangelicals, which are very much on the side of reform now, and some different groups that aren't typically allied with the typical agenda. my hat is off to them, and they have also, as i said just a second ago, they have provoked some good conversations in the hispanic community as well. many latinos who are very assimilated, who have no problems with their own citizenship, this is a reminder to all of us, you know, our heritage is a heritage of immigrants. and we all do know people, friends, family members, you know, coworkers, colleagues, that are in this type of predicament. so they're sort of like a conscious for all of us, even in the hispanic community, of where we're -- you know, where we come from. and i think they also, to me, they represent where we can go, the future. and like so many of our good values of civic ebb gaugemengag progress. my hat is off to them. >> american history is filled with stories of people who come from other countries with no

money in their pocket, don't know english, and then come here and become important parts of society and their families become important parts of this society. raul reyes, there's no reason why mexicans and latin americans aren't enjoying that legacy. thank you so much for being here. as congress debates immigration and other things, there's a new app the that lets you vote on bills alongside your representative. the app is called capitol bells. would you use it to chime in and let you know where your elected official stands? hank rogers indeed. like us on the facebook. up next, i love this next segment, chris christie versus rand paul, a nasty war of words heating up between two types of the gop. i love a good civil war.

developing news on the

capitol. in about 90 minutes, the house will vote on the senate's bill to cut student loan rates that doubled earlier this month. the vote is expected to easily gain the two-thirds majority needed to pass. also this afternoon, o.j. simpson gets parole in nevada, but he is not out of jail next. simpson received parole on only some of his kidnapping and armed robberies convictions. he still faces at least four more years behind bars for the 2007 crimes. and the sentencing phase for convicted wikileaker begins, for bradley manning. he faces a max of 136 years in military prison. and in new york city, anthony weiner's chief spokesman is also apologizing today, after she went off on an expletive-laden tirade about a former campaign intern. weiner's apparently thought her interview with hunter walker was off the record, but it wasn't. that's how we know what happened. now they've apologized to the former intern and that's not the only tirade from the campaign.

we will play the tape ahead. but now, a turn to something everyone loves is, bacon! >> bacon, bacon, where's the bacon? i smell bacon. got to be bacon, only one thing smells like bacon. it's bacon! >> yes, bacon may be the battle cry for the gop in 2016, all because of a schoolyard standoff that is building between governor chris christie and senator rand paul. first there was this last week at the aspen institute. >> this strain of libertarianism that's going through both parties right now, and making big headlines, i think, is a very dangerous thought. i love all these esoteric debates that people are getting in -- >> senator rand paul, for example? >> listen, you can name any number of people and he's one of them. these esoteric, intellectual debates, i want them to come to new jersey and sit across from the widows and the orphans and have that conversation. >> now, governor christie said

he wasn't speaking specifically about paul and had his name not been injected we a question, his name wouldn't have been mentioned at all. but once the bell was rung, the parties do feel the need to meet in the senator of the ring. >> the people who want to criticize me and call names, they are precisely the same people who are unwilling to cut the spending and they're gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme all my sandy money now. >> if senator paul wants to look at where he's cutting spending, maybe he should start lacking at the pork barrel spending he bring home to kentucky, but i doubt he would, because most washington politicians only care about bringing home the bacon so they can get re-elected. >> so are you going to get re-elected, senator? >> this is the king of bacon talking about bacon. >> wow, that escalated quickly. in politics, that's pronounced boom goes the dynamite. and you have a big clash there. i so two big things here. >> thanks for that clarification. i was confused. >> number one, what we see is

that senator rand paul is in the center right mainstream of the republican party. he's someone that chris christie has to reckon, even though governor chris christie has some of the highest favorability ratings of any in the country. he doesn't need to be talking about the bacon and wrestling with the pig. he doesn't need this, except for the fact that he has realized and decided that rand paul is formidable, unlike his father, ron paul, who was always pushed to the side and dismissed by republicans. that's interesting, especially if you take a close look at what rand paul stands for. number two, i love chris christie making a traditionally liberal observation that is precisely the southern and conservative and, yes, red states, that get the most money from the federal government. he mentioned the record there in kentucky, and it's not just that. in new mexico, in west virginia, in alabama, alaska, montana, these are all red states, some of the top states that get the most money back from the federal government. bottom line meaning, we, the rest of us, often in big states

like new york and california, are subsidizing them. and progressives have said, that's okay. but that's what a social safety net is for. if people are hurting down there and need help to buy food or need unemployment insurance from the federal government, god bless. there is a bitter irony to someone like rand paul attacking a state that has the opposite condition, that is not like him, taking these handouts. >> absolutely. look, as crystal well knows, the only thing that i like more than bacon is a good gop civil war. those are always fun. >> bacon and gop civil war. >> right, i know! right? but there is a real something to this fight. we're talking -- they're talking about the size of government. the gop since the end of 2012 have been trying to figure out, who is going to be going forward? and we have christie, who is basically a compassionate conservative in this way, and he believes that government can help people, right, versus rand paul, who wants to be -- to shrink government down to make it very small, be very isolationist.

and it's interesting, too, because they're also laooking forward to this government shutdown, which side they're going to be on with that, which ultimately gets you to, what do you think of the electorate in 2016? are we in a turnout electorate r era, or that old model of, like, the middle will decide. the edges, the fringes will love this idea of a government shutdown. they'll think, well, the republicans did the right thing in washington. if you think it's a turnout election and you can win by pulling out the fringes, absolutely shut the government down. chris christie would be like, that's not the way to win this election. >> the media is absolutely loving this. they are loving this. as much as i love talking about bacon, no pun intended, i do think it was below the belt. i think it was taking it a bit too far on rand paul's part. but these are two big brands. i think you make a great point and this legitimatizes rand paul, who, you know, i don't think chris christie had anything to necessarily gain by fighting this guy. >> you might be punching down.

>> well, he definitely is punching down, but you have rand paul, who, i think, represents this base that is frankly very pla popular right now, and it's not being occupied. it's this group of people who are very much anti-government. they want us out of wars abroad and millennials specifically love this. and as for people who just don't want government in our lives anymore. i know it sounds crazy, but i'm more with chris christie on this. i feel like there are a number of republicans who believe that there is a very reasonable role for government. and chris christie makes a great argument for that, talking about our state in new jersey. but for the same reason that you love this, you love this gop, and fighting is the same reason that many of the gop hate this. and if this fight continues, and i believe it will, it further divides the party, and i think it would be very scary going into 2014 and 2016. >> and i think you make the appropriate distinction between the two. chris christie actually believes in governance, in getting things done, and rand paul

fundamentally does not. you know, moving out from the specific rand paul/chris christie battle of words that is going on right now, i've got to tell you, i look at chris christie. here's a guy in new jersey who vetoed early voting, laid off 10,000 teachers and educational professionals, basically balanced his budgets and brags about it on the backs of the poor by reducing the earned income tax credit. in my head, i know i should not like this guy at all. and i've got to tell you, i like him. my heart likes this guy. and the personality. the personality, he is such a skilled, gifted politician. i think democrats should be very concerned about him in 2016. because if someone likes me is going, i can't help myself, he is a compelling figure, people have said he's too moderate to win in the gop primary -- >> but that's the problem, it's the primary. >> but you know what, mitt romney won in the gop primary, in the most divided, extreme primary we've seen, and he is a far less skilled politician that be chris christie and he had to overcome his health care bill,

which was exactly like obama's. if he can do it, chris christie sure as heck can. >> but the mistake of nominating mitt romney, they understand, we can't do that again. >> chris christie is not anything like mitt romney. >> yeah, i think it's an interesting point, because he also used that great attack of him saying, this is about you being esoteric and an egghead. he pivoted away from, are we talking about surveillance, no, we're talking about how other people are too smart and you're perfect jersey. >> that's skilled. up next, we'll talk about newly declassified documents that are revealing important information about secret government surveillance. that's more "cycle," straight ahead. it starts with something little, like taking a first step. and then another. and another. and if you do it. and your friends do it. and their friends do it... soon we'll be walking our way to awareness, support

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new kellogg's raisin bran® with omega 3 from flax seeds. plus plump juicy raisins. flax seed? who are you? i still got it. [ male announcer ] invest in your heart health with kellogg's raisin bran® cereals. today the obama administration made public top-secret nsa documents,

revealing that the government has the ability and the authorization to analyze millions of phone records in the hunt for just one suspect. the release comes as top officials are expected to testify before the senate judiciary committee in a fisa oversight hearing. and this morning, chairman patrick leahy had these strong words for an absent director of national intelligence, james clapper. >> we need straightforward answers. i'm concerned we're not getting them. and i appreciate it's difficult talking about classified programs in public settings, but the american people expect and deserve honest answers. >> the senate hearings comes just one week after a surprisingly close vote on a house bill that would have gutted the nsa's phone surveillance program. it ultimately failed. and of course, this all stems from revelations about the nsa's surveillance programs leaked by edward snowden, who is still holed up in a russian airport. let's bring in a friend of the show, retired u.s. army colonel,

lieutenant schaefer. thank you for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> why is the administration doing this now and what is the significance of what happened today? >> there are two things. first, these documents that are now unclassified probably never should have been classified to begin with. because it talks about fundamentally how things are managed within the context of legality. and when you start classifying laws, how do you avoid breaking the law if you don't know wyou'e breaking it. secondly, with the snowden revelations today regarding the training programs, this new thing that was revealed, i think, by "the guardian" today talks about the fact that they still may not be coming completely clean, per senator leahy's comments. let me say this and be very clear about it. i've had to testify about classified programs in open hearings and then we've had closed hearings. it can be done, it has been done. and i think this is all about government officials not really wanting to come completely clean on what they're doing, because when they seize the light of day, it's not going to look very well on them or on the reality

of what they're doing. and by doing it the way their doing it, they're making it far more difficult to be successful. the boston bombers got through the net, because they're actually trying to get 12 fish on a given day. and instead of going to, basically paring down the data to the size of a pond, you're going after 12 fish in the size of the atlantic ocean. make s your job so much more difficult. >> tony, none of this can be overseen when there's secret law, when we have no idea what's going on. and if they're overclassifying and declassifying, i take from that two things. number one, what you said. it should have been classified to begin, if it's fine for us to read today. and number two, this debate that we're having, whatever you think of some of these leakers who are in the news and who are accused of criminal acts, this debate is good. this debate is healthy. this debate is unearthing new information, so we can actually discuss what our government is doing and how we want it to do it. so looking at that, i want to get your comment on that vote specifically that abby mentioned. it seems to me that we have not

a left/right disagreement, but a top-down disagreement, where obama and boehner and the lea r leaders and some of the military establishment want this without any discussion. and you have this grassroots operation going against the partisan rules. i wonder if you could speak to that. >> and it was voted to heart by congressmen and women, which is unusual. this was not left or right. this was kind of like, what do you really feel about this. this is what's important now. it's important to understand the context of what has been said in this debate. now, let me be very clear so i don't get in trouble with my think tank. the leadership in the think tank are for the nsa program, as am i, on a personal level. with that being said, we all take an oath of office to be obligated to protect and support the constitution, which includes the amendments, first, fourth, and fifth if particular. so what we have to look at now is why didn't the program actually catch the boston bombers, if that's what it's supposed to be doinging. and the other thing, they've pared down these 54 events that

they've influenced down to about 12 and even that's down to about one right now. so the value here, this program is costing us $10 billion a year, plus if you count sib cybercommand, that's $20. i could take that money and really penetrate the bad guys and not sit at some keyboard, hoping that i come across some strand that some day may be used if some obtuse way to maybe prevent a terrorist act. >> i want to dig into that vote in the house a little bit more with you, because you spoke with jim sensen brenner. is he trying to stick it to obama or has he really had a change of heart? >> i've spoke to him personally, and there was not an ounce of venom in his speech. and i understand the issues. and when he talked to me about

this, it was all about the fact he wrote the law a certain way, and that is not the case. so, again, this is a republican, he's conservative. i don't think this is a political issue at all. i think this is all about trying to rein in what he believes has become a program which is way out there regarding certain collection of certain information, regarding u.s. citizens. >> just to that point, can you unpack a little bit for the people, 215, what does that mean? >> that is a section that deals with essentially the busy element. basically, a third party collection lap loophole. theoretically, the provider is a third party. that third party then is a co-viewer of our data. the government says because there's a third party involved, our communication is not necessarily protected and they could look at it, at least the header and footer. so your e-mail address and my e-mail address is available to them. they view this also in phone calls. the 215 element is the business

provision of the patriot act, which allows the government to go to a third party to get our communication. and that's the issue. >> tony, turning to a slightly different topic, i want to talk about money. secretary of defense hagel was out today talking about the pentagon budget cuts. let's take a listen. >> if sequester-level cuts persist, dod would experience nearly $1 trillion in defense spending reductions over the next ten years. to help dod balance strategic ends, ways, and means under these budget scenarios, the strategic choice of the management review scrutinized every aspect of dod's budget. everything was on the table. >> so, what does this all this mean for what we're doing in afghanistan going forward and our presence there? >> within the past week, there's been a bipartisan, much like the amash vote on nsa. there's been a real moving back towards reducing the funding for afghanistan. now, general dunford is doing his best with the commander of forces there. he's now debating about what we should do in 2014.

with that said, he will have a reduced budget no matter what. and i think, frankly, that's the way to go for the most part. we have to be very careful on these choices. on the larger scale, as secretary of defense hagel just said, everything's on the table, everything should be on the table. we are still spending money, ss essentially on a cold war infrastructure. the cold war ended in 1990, and we're still spending a lot of money on it. >> lieutenant colonel tony shafer, we always love having you on the show. up next, what the anthony weiner have in common with machiavelli's "the prince"? that's a tease for you. r millios are tweeting. and 900 million dollars are changing hands online. that's why the internet needs a new kind of server. one that's 80% smaller. uses 89% less energy. and costs 77% less. it's called hp moonshot. and it's giving the internet the room it needs to grow. this ...is going to be big.

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did i look in the mayor? yes, i did. you know who i decided to vote for? anthony weiner. i decided i've got good ideas. i decided i'm not beholden to that class. you know more about me maybe more than you want, maybe more than i want. >> as we watch the latest developments with a mix of horror and fascination, you do start to wonder if maybe the campaign needs a little bit of guidance. and according to our next guest, machiavelli, a 16th century political mastermind may be the answer, but not for the reasons you may. 500 years after machiavelli wrote "the prince," phillip bobet wants to clear up some of the myths about the ideal rural.

phillip bobbette is the author of "the garments of the court and palace: machiavelli and the world that he made." thank you for joining us. i want to start with the question of, why is "the prince" still so relevant. hitler kept a copy by his table, napoleon reportedly read it. 500 years later, why are we still writing about and arguing about this book? >> we don't have a very clear grip on what machiavelli himself intend, so you've had 500 years of debate and controversy keeping it alive. and "the prince" is written in a very pithy style, it tells truth about political action that many political people would like to sort of ignore or sweep under the carpet. >> help clear up some of these myths for us. there's a saying that i often use that i thought machiavelli said, "the ends justify the means," basically saying the morally wrong actions are sometimes necessary to achieve morally right outcomes. i've heard he actually never did

say this. can you help debunk some of these rumors for this? >> machiavelli never wrote that. but he did say things that are very sympathetic to that. by which he meant, not any ends justify any means, but that you have to measure means against ends, that the ends that serve a particular person, your own personal well-being, may allow for a smaller range of permissible means than those that serve the common interests or the common good. >> talk to us a little bit about what it means to even be machiavelli machiavellian. some people watching at home may think, i don't want to be like that, i don't want to be super strategic. some people think of it like networking, they assume it's so fake, that they don't want to do that even if some people are good at it or even if it helps them at work. but machiavelli was speaking about more than just tactics. he was saying that there are certain streeategic frameworks that can also advance good,

depending on who's using them. >> that's exactly right. and that's why machiavelli was so controversial when his books first appeared posthumously. he lived in the futile era, when a union between a prince and his realm were a union between a prince and his realm was total. the prince controlled fairs. everything was in his interests was in the interest of the realm. machiavelli foresaw when says the would replace princes and there would be a difference between the morality you would have in your personal life and the morality when you want to act for the state. it was proper in some cases, for example, to deceive your counterparts in other states. it was proper to pronounce greechts that were not in the common interests of your people. those kinds of desessions we want among our friends or business associates or our professors or our students. we wouldn't want to take them away from the state by drawing a distinction between a person who can ans for his own good and a person who acts for the good of the state, machiavelli opened

himself up to a charge of what we now say is militia very littlism. he was no machiavellian. >> professor bobity, talk about one of my favorite president is, your uncle lyndon baines johnson. was he mackal veryian. >> machiavellian has such a negative term. i'd hate to say it about someone i loved and admired, president johnson. he was a really intense person and he held concepts like the ones i just mentioned in the public interest very much to heart. he said once, i don't think he's been quoted as saying this but i heard him say never take small risks. i took that to mean keep your eye on public interest. if something is really important, the common interest, well then go for it. take whatever rick to your career necessary. but don't throw away your career

on the silly and pointless diversions. >> i'm curious, what do you think machiavelli would have to say about what we're watching play out with anthony weiner? we hate to do it to you but we have to go there. i'm sorry. >> well, machiavelli had a very robust social life. in renaissance italy. he had a very long suffering and dutiful and devoted and a very family oriented wife. i suppose it's just not fair to ask a person in renaissance italy to judge someone living in midtown. >> it's so diplomatic. >> fair enough. philip bob bit, thank you so much. >> thanks. >> up next, ari is cheating on us. >> what? >> apparently it's for a good cause. he'll explain next. what do you think? [ mom ] yea, give it more sparkles. [ male announcer ] your kids make great things. so give them a tasty, wholesome snack

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large portion of the corrupt has thought about the racial profiling in a single case, the trial of george zimmerman. we focused on a question in a single incident between two people asking if and how race played a role. now, that debate proved divisive as you know, but it did turn out that it showed us one widely shared premise. racial profiling is bad. yes, that's why zimmerman's defenders said race didn't impact him. and that's why they emphasized that trayvon martin, the victim, made racial references in the phone call before he was killed. but even if profiling is widely

criticized, the practice continues in many parts of the country. to look at that wider context, i've been reporting how it's used and you've mized by local governments. this is part of an msnbc special report "presumed guilty." >> there's no time to -- >> i think we kind of dismiss is as some just innocuous action by a police agency and that good citizens will appreciate the attempt at enforcement. but in can the fa, it is a high level of disrespect. >> new york's situation is not unique. while 25 states have passed laws discouraging profiling, only 12 of those states fully ban it. and only five specifically punish police for the practice. in most of the country, racial profiling is basically on the table. >> we want our country to like see this as a problem and deal with it. >> presidents from both parties have criticized the practice. george w. bush called for its abolition in his first state of the union address. >> earlier today i asked the

attorney general to develop specific recommendations to end racial profiling. it's wrong. and we will end it in america. >> he issued new guidelines in 2003. but civil rights leaders say they're toothless and lack the force of federal law. in the wake of the zimmerman trial, profiling has drawn renewed attention. senator ben cardin is pushing for a federal ban. >> it doesn't add to good police work and it alienates communities. >> critics of racial profiling say it's past time to apply a traditional legal principle, punishment and deterrence to police action that discriminate biz race. >> we have to deal with the truths and force our police agencies to get back to abiding by the law. >> and if you think about it, that's pretty odd that unlike every other tough on crime law, the federal and state rules on this racial profiling don't actually do much to punish racial profiling but it looks liking that could change. john conyers introduced legislation just yesterday to pan ban the practice.

over in the senate, there's a companionen bill by ben cardin that has 16 cosponsors including harry reid. when it comes to speaking out against racial profile, critics range from president obama to president bush. for all those people saying we need more than a conversation on race, you're right. we need more than broad rhetoric against racial injustice. we need action and a national ban on profiling people based on the color of their skin is a logical place to start. that does it for the cycle today. martin, it's all yours. >> good afternoon, it's wednesday july 31st. and with the taste of august recess on the tip of their tongues, capitol hill is abuzz. >> drums, please. >> hello, everybody. >> there's a gone campaigning sign. >> we had a very enthusiastic meeting with the president. >> his scheme yesterday. >> how about a grand bargain for

middle class jobs. >> when he does come to the hill, it's basically just another internal campaign rally. >> 40 meaningless votes to repeal obama care. >> if i have poll numbers as low as his, i'd probably be out doing the same thing. >> we're lacking action. >> do you believe there is going to be a civil war within the republican party? >> well, it's not exactly a game of crow kay. >> you're probably not going to get president obama to sign a bill that repeals obama care. >> congress should defund it. >> it is he who wants to shut down the government. >> do you think the republicans have the courage to do that? >> frankly, probably not. >> i don't look at that as very courageous. >> suicidal political tactic. >> they ought to clean themselves up and drink wine and have a jolly time ♪ just a little something to break the monotony. >> it is the last day of july