thanks so much for watching this afternoon. you can always check the website, follow us on twitter, but of course for now, "hardball" and chris matthews is next. monster. let's play "hardball." good evening. let me start with this. it's a ghastly story, more ghastly than most can imagine. three women kept captive in the dark for over a decade, again and again raped, chained to walls. they escaped this may after one of the captive women broke through a storm door on that street and flagged down a neighbor. today the monster who did there, ariel castro was sentenced to life in prison, plus 1,000 years. he had pled guilty to 937 counts

of rape, kidnapping and murder. he will never be a free man. but the staggering moment came today when one of the three victims, michelle knight, spoke about the horror of the basement, the horror of the monster who kept her there and used her. >> i wondered if i was ever going to see him again. he was only 2 1/2 years old. i cried every night. i was so alone. i worried about what would happen to me and the other girls every day. the days never got shorter. days turned into nights, nights turned into days. years turned into eternity i knew nobody cared about me. he told me that my family didn't

care even on holidays. christmas was the most traumatic day. i never got to spend it with my son. that was michelle knight. he captor, who sat in chains throughout the proceeding, took issue, believe it or not, with the super aror's characterization of him. let's watch him in action. >> i am not -- trying to make me look a monster. i'm not a monster. i'm a normal person. i am just sick. i have an addiction. just like an alcoholic has an addiction. alcoholics cannot control their addiction. that's why i couldn't control my addiction. clint van zandt, an nbc analyst and former fbi profiler, and susan, a prosecutor. thank you for being here. i once read that hitler even thought he was a good guy. what is it about the criminal mind that's able to delude him or chefself, usually him, into

believing they weren't doing the obvious? clint? >> this guy, chris, you used the right term, monster, if you look in wikipedia tomorrow, there should be a picture of him next to the word "monster." antisocial personality, psychopath, depending on your perspective. he has been able to delude himself into believing, telling the court, telling at least at least one of the victims that there was consensual sex in this, that there was no torture, that he was brutal to these people. this is a guy who jumped up and down allegedly on the stomach of one of his victims to force her to abort a child she was carrying. if he's not a monster, there are no monsters. >> susan, i haven't seen you in a while. what do you make of this case? it has such a menacing quality. it was on the networks all day

long. >> the young woman is absolutely extraordinary, and she is a heroine, for her to face her abuser in that courtroom so articulately and so expressively. she even had compassion. she ended her remarks with i love you all, with gratitude, and talked about forgiveness. i think she's the headline of the story. she's extraordinary, chris. >> let's listen to the words she spoke. michelle knight, here she is again addressing mr. castro directly in the courtroom. >> i remember all the time that you came home talking about what everybody else did wrong action and act like you weren't doing the same thing. you said at least i didn't kill you. you took 11 years of my life away, and i have got it back. i spent 11 years in hell.

now your hell is just beginning. what does god think of us hypocritically going to church every sunday. coming home to torture us t the death penalty would be so much easier. you don't deserve that. you deserve to spend life in prison. >> so all this is in her memory, susan, all the memory of those sunday mornings when she talked about days lating to months to years to eternity, the sense of timelessness, all the time watching this hypocrite cal captor of her, this dungeon keeper, and being aware that this guy is getting away with it. >> it's really a truly remarkable tale of courage that she stood in that courtroom -- most victims can't be in the same room, let alone in public or in a courtroom with their accuser. they'll have a victim advocate read the statement. she was able to speak and make everybody who listened to her feel what it must have felt like to be her and to feel her true

ump. now, she ended her remarks with someone is listening to me now. i'm being heard and i'm liberated. this is an unusual tale, not only for the disgusting horrors of the crime, but for the triumph of the victim who is now free. >> well said. remarkably mr. castro tried to paint a portrait of a you remember noal home life. even when he apologized to the women, he seemed to deny what happened was all that bad. let's watch him again. >> i would come home and just be normal, like a normal family. these accusations that i would come home and beat them, those are totally wrong, your honor. like i said before, i am not a violent person. i know what i did is wrong, but i'm not a violent person. i simply kept them there without -- i am truly sorry to

the families and i -- you guys know all the harmony that went on in that home. castro also shockingly called the sex with the women consensual and said there were times they asked for it. those are grossly his words, i must say. let's watch him again. >> also the sex that went on in the house was consensual. these allegations about being forced on them, that is totally wrong. because there were times that they would even ask me for sex. many times. i learned that these girls are not virgins. they had multiple partners before me. >> let me go to an expert. clint, i'm not -- sometimes conservatives used -- certainly liberals do, i think this guy is

guilty. it's real simple, but my question is, given the way we look at these things, when you look at the row of houses, they're not rowhouses, they're detached, but they're close-knit homes, and we're talking about almost a deck indicate in which these women, and the two women, the daughter, of course, came of this raping, and there they are. these are close together. if you go the safe way, you go to shop at the corner, you go to church, anything you do, people are watching. if you yell at night or turn the tv up too loud, somebody tells you to turn it down. we all know that. how could this have happened? nobody know about it but the guy? >> well, as we know, chris, this is a guy who was feeding the women fast food. he would come in and maybe give them one meal a day. he would go to a fast-food burger joint, come in. he kept these women chained by their legs in various bedrooms

in the basement, upstairs in the house. he treated them worse than dogs, but everything he did was designed for a purpose. just like when he beat his common-law wife time and again and again, because she wouldn't listen to him, she wouldn't shut up, was his term. he justified it. in his own way, he justified all the actions he took, but i think what's important and what's a statement about society today, for ten years he came and went out of that house, he carried food in, he had to carry clothes, packages, other things like this. i mean, that's why when this case first broke, initially law enforcement thought there's got to be somebody else involved, there must be his brother. for this guy to singularly pull this off for ten years and all of the neighbors are hear no evil, see no evil, speak for evil, that's a tough comment. that harkins back to the days in new york and that famous murder that took place over a half hour when that woman was killed.

people heard her being murdered, and allegedly closed windows of their house not to hear the scream. you know, we've got to be able to hear the cries of our neighbors. >> well said. let mess go to susan in this. i'm only an expert, and in deference to you and others, i'm not an attorney, but i hear that people who go to prison with child molesting issues and crimes on their record, that they don't do too well. how is this guy going to go into prison for life and 1,000 years with this record of what he's done to women, what he's done to this child. he's not going 20 do well, is he? >> he's going to have a rough time in prison, no doubt about it. corrections has changed remarkably over the years, and it's gotten a lot better, but it's going to be difficult to keep the other inmates away from him, who will view him as one of the worst of the worst. there's a hierarchy, among the bad guys there's the good buys. >> that's what i'm talking

about. >> how do the corrections people who are professionals correct this guy? they put him in solitary? >> you can put him in solitary, but eventually he's got to come out for some exercise. you can't long him down 24/7, he will have interaction with other people. it could even be a correctional officer that just can't stand it, can't take it. >> wait a minutic do they put him in with the check kiters or other more harmless people? clint, where do you put these guys who are definitely vulnerable to their new expand i don't think who just hate what they did? >> you know, the terrible thing is there's a lot of guys we can start to compare him with. jeffrey dahmer, of course, who killed victims, he was murdered in prison, but the arrogance on this guy's part, if no other reason, they're going to have to put him intel himself. dennis rader, how he stood before the court and lectured everybody about serial killers,

this guy who pled to over 950 counts till stands there and argues with the judge over, as you suggest, whether the sex was consensual or not, or whether he had actually terrorized these women or not after he pled guilty to these various crimes to save himself from the death penalty. life sentence, no chance of parole, but chris, they three young women have a similar life sentence. they have to deal with the post-traumatic stress, and these are the -- these are the stories that come into your mind at night against when you hear a sound, when you pick up a smell, the ptsd kicks in. they've got a long road to come back on. >> you know, that's so true.

i keep thinking of the smell of my mother's cookies, and what christmas was like. here's this woman separated from her child for all those years, thinks as an adult what she's missing in the dark. amazing horror. susan, good to have you back. and clint van zandt. unfortunately we only meet on these circumstances, clint. anyway, coming up, cruz control. the ted cruz and the republican party fires more shots at the republican establishment, if you will. how do they think mitch mcconnell likes being called a chicken? and one of the new questions is about his wife humaabedin, anyway, and the government of russia, putin has granted nsa leaker edward snowden temporary asylum. a full year. that means he now gets to live

under a government that's not really big on freedom. finally the speech queen elizabeth never wanted to write, never wanted to give, and we never wanted to hear. it's about nuclear war. this is "hardball," the place for politics. i save time, money, and i avoid frustration. you'll find reviews on home repair to healthcare, written by people just like you. find out why more than two million members count on angie's list. angie's list -- reviews you can trust. the house caught fire and we were out on the streets. [ whispering ] shhh. it's only a dream. and we have home insurance. but if we made a claim, our rate would go up... [ whispering ] shhh. you did it right. you have allstate claim rate guard so your rates won't go up just because of a claim. [ whispering ] are we still in a dream?

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surge on the right or a coup. they have hijacked much of the republican agenda now. with the parties facing major divisions -- immigration, the budget, the debt ceiling, those

divisions have cruz' fingerprints all over them. that includes the fight over defunding obama care. they are all urging their senate colleagues to sign a pledge vowing to vote no on any spending bill that funds even a penny of the president's health care law. the threat of a government shutdown is the ultimate bargaining chip. a focal collision of collision groups, including the tea party patriots, and citizens united took to capitol hill today as part of that fight against the president's health care law. their argument to republicans -- you fund it, you own it. well, like flies to honey, cruz and tea party republicans were there to greet them, of course. here they are. >> there's no battle more important than this opportunity right now to timely defund obama care. it is hurting the economy -- >> it hangs over our economy like a cloud of uncertainty and people don't know what tomorrow is going to bring. >> we're standing for the people.

i hope the president understands that and eventually if we stand strongly enough, comes around and starts standing for his people. lieuies gohmert, the notorious birther who believes the president of the united states is from east africa. he really does. he says it all the time. you can see it, the question is are they going out there to take over the party and shut down the government or just trying to make a point? right-wing surge, attempted coup or bluff. former rnc chair and steve mcmahon a democratic strategist. you're the inside guy. i've been trying to frame this with the producers. i'm not sure the answer. would ted cruz be all that upset, but we ended up defaulting on the debt. would he be upset with that a lot? or would he say that's the price of doing business with an establishment? >> i think it's hard to say

exactly where the thinking is goods. i think that mind-set would be consistent with what the tea party members of congress wanted to do, to create the revolution inside the capitol building itself, saying this far, no further. the problem is the blowout, the ramifications. i'm all for defunding obama care. >> even though it's the law of the law. >> even though it's the law of the land action but this is the point. >> what else do you want to defund? >> republicans wanted to defund the department of education. it hasn't happened. so that's the reality. you've got to deal with the reality. you may want to defund a lot of things, but you have to deal with the reality of doing it, and what happens if you do it when you do it. that's the piece that's still missing. what are you going to replace obama care with? how will you lay out to the american people -- >> so you don't believe that defunding or destroying obama care represents an economic -- >> it's not a positive program.

>> steve? >> michael just talked about what the mind-set is. i think that presumes there's a mind. these guys don't care what happens to the government. they don't care if we default on they don't care in wall street collapses. >> why don't they care? >> what's their motive? >> for most it's i want a constituency to enable me to run the president. >> i think they're ideologues. >> they're true ideologues, but they also want to run for president. >> but you're creating something now you will inherit as president that will be far worse. >> here's a new poll, pugh research, not a right-wing organization, asked republicans if they thought their gop leadership moved more to the right or became more rod rat. 54% said go to the right. so can you overestimate the urge of the republican rank-and-file

to just jack it over to the right a bit? just try that thing? a bit more crazy. >> i don't overestimate it, but how do you define being more conservative? >> shut down the government for -- >> that's not -- that's not being more conservative. look, we did that during the clinton years, were they less conservative? >> let mess tell you -- here's where i see the win/win. you tell me. they shut down the government, default on the debt. they're not paying bills or t-bonds or anything, they're what laughingstock. chinese start pulling it back. they can say, not only do they win the political argument, they made the government look weak and the administration look weak. they screwed up the economic recovery and they have a win/win. >> i don't think it's a win for them to screw up the economy. >> i agree with you. >> there was a new poll with congressional approval rating at 7%. that's americans reacting to what these guys are doing. >> why are the republicans say

getting to be more conservative? >> they think the government is too big, but what does conservative mean? does it mean default on the debt? does it mean take everyone's 401(k) down through the floor? irmgts you know what? at the end of the day -- >> that's where you have to be. >> i look at ted cruz, and i don't knowsh the guy is young action new, extremely well educated. yod to use demagogue, because that's really negative. i see a guy who wants to shake things up, he's not even sure how much, but see where the -- he picks up the pieces. >> that's the sentiment of his colleagues as well. that's the back story to a lot of this noise. >> he said he won't go for any spending bill to keep the government going after september 30th that pays for obama care, which means the government shutdown will come, but cruz is accusing the president of threatening to shut down the

law, this is cruz, here senator cruz from texas, this is his argument earlier this weeks in other wordsi not he bringing the government down, it's the president for trying to have the program enacted into law, passed by congress, signed by him become a reality. >> the next step will be that president obama and harry reid will scream and yell, why are those mean and nasty republicans threatening to shut down the government over obama care? at that point we actually have to stand up and fight. we've got to stand up and make the argument and win the argument that, no, that's not true we want to fund the federal government. why is president obama threatening to shut down the federal government? because he wants to force obama care down people's throats, because he's not willing to give individual families the same waiver he's giving giant corporations. >> remember pat buchanan, way to

the right of the party when he was around here, right? he's not way to the right anymore, of your party. he's not way to the right anymore. pat's somewhere in the center right now compared to this character. what do you think, steve? >> that's extortion. here's what's going on. he didn't want to raise the debt limit, but basically he's saying a law that congress passed and the president sinds, the supreme has upheld is something i don't like, so i'm going to have a temper tantrum. >> he is a cool customer. >> but it's a tantrum. >> to make mitch mcconnell fear -- >> this guy says it calmly like it's normal. the new normal in the republican party is right wing. >> if you read what he said instead of listening to him saying it -- >> it's very conservative. mitch mcconnell is living john boehner's life. thank you. that's all true the it's not

crazy, it's try. michael steele, thank you. august has begun. steve mcmahon, thank you. this is staggering stuff. the queen of england, the speech she would have made had britain come under nuclear attack back in the '60s. it could have happened. who knows. this is "hardball," the place for politics. nancial crisis. we started to lay a new foundation for stronger, more durable economic growth. but we're not there yet. what we need is not a 3-month plan or even a 3-year plan. we need a long-term american strategy: job security with good wages and durable industries. a good education. reducing poverty. reducing inequality. growing opportunity. i'm going to keep pushing to make high-quality preschool available for every four-year-old in america it's time for the minimum wage to go up. (cheers)

but i won't be able to do it alone, so i'm going to be calling... on all of us to take up this cause. good jobs; a better bargain for the middle class... and the folks who are working to get into the middle class; an economy that grows from the middle-out. that's what we need. (cheers) all your important legal matters in just minutes. protect your family... and launch your dreams. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side. then you'll know how uncomfortable it can be. [ crickets chirping ] but did you know that the lack of saliva can also lead to tooth decay and bad breath? [ exhales deeply ] [ male announcer ] well there is biotene.

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aa whole lot more. go further. ♪ yer always after me lucky charms! whoa. i forgot how good these taste! [ lucky ] ♪ they're magically delicious back to "hardball." now to the sideshow. recent intraparty squabbling between rand paul and chris christie has highlighted the deep divisions, but also ignited a debate over bacon, at least according to jimmy fallon last night. >> actually here's what rand paul said. he said in terms of pork baisch spending, christie is the king of bacon, low bowel. in response he fired back, saying that kind of name-calling

is beneath the office you hold, sir, but just to clarify would i be the king of real juicy pork basin or that grouse generic pork bacon? paul said, i don't know man, your fiscal values are not in line, to which christie said. i'm ago rep as i can. or sit on a throne of bacon? to which paul said, dude, it was just a metaphor. let it go, my point is your state's spending is out of control. to which christie said, i'll tell you what's out of control, how much you have me thinking about bacon. you can do whatever you want. anyway, concern about -- more serious stuff, nsa surveillance continuing to mount. this week after new leaks revealed another program

xkeyscore. these leaks -- as big brother, here's a parody from "wired"'s youtube channel. >> special projects nicole. >> we have a situation, what are you doing? >> i'm analyze metadata. >> follow my instructions precisely. ready? >> um -- >> are you ready? >> yes. >> turn on your computer. >> it's already on. >> you're a good kid. now, listen to me very carefully. i need you to hack a website. >> yes, i've been waiting for this moment. thank you so much. >> your exuberance is wasting precious time. ms. winters, where are we? have you hacked the site? >> yes, i hacked the site. >> was your cover blown? >> no. is the data i mentioned still there? >> yes, it's here. dear henry topple, 1943, thanks for opening an account with

geocities.com, the world's leading e-mail provider now and forever. your password is passwore1, 23. i've been trying to remember that for years. >> not a great recruiting video. next sup, it was the queen's speech, but luckily it was one she never had to make. it included a contingency speech prepared for queen elizabeth ii that was used in the event of a nuclear war. it's a chilling reminder of how the free world lived under the very real threat of armageddon. -- we all know that the dangers facing us today are greater by far than at any time in our long history. the enemy is not the soldier with his rifle, noreen the airman, but the deadly power -- whatever lies in wait for us,

all the qualities that have helped to twice already during this sad century will once more be our strength. well said. keep calm and carry on, british to the end. politicians and their female supporter, huma abedin and siddie leathers, if that's her real name. "i'm part of an american success story," "that starts with one of the world's most advanced distribution systems," "and one of the most efficient trucking networks," "with safe, experienced drivers." "we work directly with manufacturers," "eliminating costly markups," "and buy directly from local farmers in every region of the country." "when you see our low prices, remember

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i'm jane wells with your cnbc market wrap. the dow surged 128, s&p 500 topped 1700 for the first time after gaining 21. the nasdaq jumped 29. jobless claims hit a 5 1/2 year low last week as fewer americans filed for unemployment benefits. new claims dropped to 326,000.

and exxon mobil with big losses. profits plunged 57% in the second quarter, down $9 billion from a year ago. that's it from cnbc. now back to "hardball." i would like to know, how can i trusting with my family and my community when you can't by trusted in your own family. >> i mean, it's a fair question. look, you, sir, know some embarrassing things about me and my personal life. that's part of the cost of being an elected official, i guess. people look into those things. i'm embarrassed by it. i've dishonored my wife. but sir, i didn't do it to you. >> i guess that's the issue,

isn't it? that was anthony weiner. last night talking about the pain he called caused his wife. as this week's "people" reports coming out tomorrow, his texting continued after she resigned from congress, she considerably considered dumping the guy. the recent publicity has been painful, of course, she's human. when he resigned from congress in june 2011 to never, ever again send lewd photos of hisship over the internet. this is deeply upsetting, says a friend. meanwhile, as many people are fascinated why huma would stay with hum after all this and encourage him to keep encouraging him, a related question was asked in "new york times," why do all these women derive satisfaction exchanging

sexual messages and pictures. is it jacoby? >> thank you. joining us now with thoughts from your escale. and betsy glick is the executive editor of "people." betsy, thanks for joining us. we don't often get you on the show. why duty take a political story and put it in a big general readership of "people"? >> chris, it's great to be here, but "people" always covers politics, and we have covered this particular story in the past. in fact, our original story about anthony weiner an his marriage kind of became a part of this bigger story of what he told us and when he stopped texting and sexting and when he started again. we've been all over this story, and it's a human story as well as political. >> what was yours last big political story before this one? >> we did a big piece on chris

christie within the last couple months. >> okay. you got me there. let me go to susan on this. this question of -- i'm just going to step back on this. this is about women. you two women can go over this. the role of women supporters, female supporters of male political people. both of women in this case, in this weird story dish not a triangle exactly, but a three-part team, the husband, the wife and this whom who sexitted back and forth. why did both these relationships start with political associations, the real and the virtual, all began with politics and ended up with these personal relationships. what does it say about how politicians allow politics to lead to this things? in other words, he used his political relationship to develop, and susan? >> chris, i love you and your show, but i think that what you

said is how the media is missing the bigger story here. anthony weiner -- >> that's why ear howard. >> anthony weiner happens to be a politician who is engaged in what millions of americans, men and women are engaging in every day. we're fascinated by it, because he's running for mayor of new york, but i think the larger question is -- why is it -- this has been framed as males abusing their power and female victims. the fact is, is that any woman who doesn't delete these kinds of e-mails, whether it comes from a politician other joe nobody, as it usually does, is making a choice to participate in not only sexting, but a lot of virtual sexual satisfaction that goes on on the internet. so i think there's a much bigger story here about what kind of a society we are, about women as well as men, and as far as huma

abedin goes, you know that nobody knows what goes on in a marriage. i think the media -- and that goes for both males and females -- ought to cut this woman a break and stop asking why she doesn't leave her husband. what business is it of ours? >> let's talk about the political piece. it's not just one person running for mayor or two people running for mayor. that's the story. that's what makes this interesting. if it was just one guy, let's face it, it wouldn't have the human interest. howard -- i've seen politicians whose wives never campaign with them. they just don't do it. she has chomp dr i think that's a story that people find compelling.

>> i think huma stood up next to him, she spoke at the podium. they have, you know, they were in "people" showing us their family. they were in "new york times" magazine, showing the world their family. she is a part of the story. there's a basic curiosity. of course i agree with susan completely that we should note be demonizing her, but demonizing is different from really wanting to explore the nature of this relationship. >> let me go over to this other woman, sydney leathers. it's a strange name. everybody laughs about it, because everybody laughs about sex. i assume that's her real name. what do you make of her? susan, you are writing about this. what is this story on people who live in a virtual world online? they don't have lives, i guess, that's your angle, but they seem to have lives at the computer? >> that's really the question. sydney leathers, or whoever she is, is 23 years old. the point i was making is that

there are hundreds of thousands to millions of sydney leatherses by other names who participate in his activities. i had on my author website today a very thought-provoking e-mail from a 25 years old who said who are you to be judging me about having virtual sex? i owe $75,000 in student loans, i work two jobs. if that's what i want to do when i come home at night, who are you to be saying that? >> i love it when mime doing that. i'm not drudging her, but what i think we need to think about, and sydney leathers no less than any other woman out there, is, why, if we're doing that, we're spending time on that if you're making a choice to spend time on that. sexual fantasizing with strangers rather than going out and meeting somebody real. virtual sex, what kind of a society are we when we're too

tired to even look for real sex? forget about real friendship. >> let me go to betsy one last chance. i do agree with you. everybody has been covering this story. henry kissinger, he's still with us, i just saw him a couple weeks ago. he once said power is the greatest aphrodisiac. is that at the heart of this story? it's this guy is running for mayor of new york and could have possibly won a couple months ago? i don't think he will probably win. who knows with new york? but that's what's -- that's what's interesting, power. >> gosh, i don't know. i'm hear to talk about sort of our incredible reporting about why they are together and the time did not line of what he told his wife and what he told the public. and i don't think this is a relationship about power. they have a very small child together.

you know, i think that genuinely they love each other and they are working on their marriage, and she, huma, is an incredibly powerful person in her own right. she is incredibly accomplished, hillary clinton's right-hand person, and to say that -- if you were saying that she's in it for power, i'm -- you know, that's not what our reporting shows. >> i think power is an aphrodisi aphrodisiac. thank you for coming on from "people." a great issue. i think i bought the last issue -- i bought the kate issue. i'll get to this one. up next, russia defies the united states and grants asylum to edward snowden. i guess he's going to learn russian. do americans view him as -- this is "hardball," a place for politics.

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let me just say this, because i think it's important. he's not a whistle-blower. he is not a human rights activist. he is wanted on a series of serious criminal charges brought in the eastern district of virginia in the united states. >> we're back. that was official state department characterization by jen sake there, the spokesperson to edward snowden's status reminding reporters he is a wanted fugitive by our government. snowden the most wanted man on the planet has been held up in the transit zone of the moscow airport for nearly six weeks. but in a new twist to this international saga, russia granted him temporary asylum today. snowden left by taxi to a nearby secure location. he can now live and work in russia for up to a year while his application for permanent political -- i guess it's exile is pending. a recent poll showed three out of four americans believe the

massive collection of phone call data by the nsa, the national security agency that snowden personally exposed intrudes on our privacy rights. you got it. 3/4 of don't like what they've been doing. while the white house and state department may consider snowden a criminal and a traitor, he may have performed a public service for exposing the privacy concerns sparking a national debate which goes on over the government's far-reaching security tactics. joining me now is pulitzer prize winning columnist eugene robinson. gentlemen, i want to go with eugene here. i don't know whether -- to me, the isn't so much putin's enjoying this, exploiting this, obviously it's an opportunity for them to tweak us. >> sure. >> as it is what we think as americans. >> exactly. >> about him, and what we think more importantly what we think of our government. >> exactly. what we think about him and, you know, is he a good guy, is he a bad guy, i don't care about that. i do have strong opinions about what we've learned courtesy of

edward snowden. >> and you don't like it? >> no, i don't like it. and it's ironic, of course, that officials from the president on down are saying of course we should have a national debate about security versus privacy and all this stuff. well, we couldn't have that debate unless he had leaked the stuff. they weren't ever going to tell us. >> so the ends justifies the means? >> look. the fact that we now know that there are secret courts developing a secret body of law interpreting the fourth amendment and we can't even know about it, we can't know what the opinions say? >> simon, you get this? i think this is the american debate. jump in here. it's probably true of every country. there is two important political questions in our lives, the relationship between our government and us and our country's role in the world. >> it's absolutely true, chris. >> go ahead. >> it's absolutely true, chris, and this is a debate that is taking place right now in other parts of the world. i was just doing a radio appearance on a radio station in london where they're discussing whether the british government

shouldn't have granted edward snowden asylum and stood up for him because the polling data here and there suggests that most people view him as a hero for having released this information. >> well, here are some numbers, by the way. 74% now say the government has been intruding in our lives basically. and we don't get many polls that are 74-22, gene. >> no, we don't. there is another question in the poll there is another question that asks is it more important to protect our privacy rights or to investigate possible terrorist threats. and more people said it was important, like 57%, to investigate terrorist threats. >> but you can do this without -- >> exactly. it's perfectly consistent if there is an investigation, if you have a target, if you know what you're looking for, as in a fourth amendment search. >> but surveillance is not investigation. >> and gathering a huge, huge mountain of data, of our

personal data with no suspicion. >> simon marks, i'll give you more time next time. you were a great gent to come on tonight. and i'm glad to hear the world perspective on this. eugene robinson, simon marks. we'll be right back after this. we have a concierge! at discover, we treat you like you'd treat you. get the it card with cashback concierge. all your important legal matters in just minutes. protect your family... and launch your dreams. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side. athto fight chronic.ms. osteoarthritis pain. to fight chronic low back pain. to take action. to take the next step. today, you will know you did something for your pain. cymbalta can help. cymbalta is a pain reliever fda-approved to manage chronic musculoskeletal pain. one non-narcotic pill a day, every day,

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let me finish tonight with this. when an american says he loves his country, means he loves an inner air, an inner light in which freedom lives, in which a man or woman can draw the breath of self respect. that's how the great adlai

stevenson sought to describe the love we feel for this country, the freedom we feel deep within us, being able to get up each day and go to bed each night distanced from the power of the state. so we come to the case of edward snowden. 3/4 of the american people now believe the nsa surveillance system he exposed intrudes on our privacy rights. rarely do we get this kind of verdict on political matters, but we've got one here. as patriotic as we are, as loyal to the republic, we don't like it penetrating into that inner life we lead, that inner light where we can think, feel, speak to others of our most intimate views of life, love, politics, all the way from the affairs of the heart to the grandest affairs of the nation. so it doesn't surprise me that we've got mixed views of edward snowden now about to begin a year living in russia. the important point to me is not what putin thinks of what this guy did, but when we americans think of what he told us our government is doing to us. the latest verdict is that by

adlai stevenson's detectivenition of things, the government has gotten a little too much into our space. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "politicsnation" with al sharpton starts right now. thanks, chris, and thanks to you for tuning in. i'm chris jansing tuning in for al sharpton, who will be joining us shortly. tonight's lead, face-to-face with her captor. remarkable drama unfolded inside the cleveland courtroom today. the cleveland kidnapper ariel castro stood just feet away from one of his captives as he was sentenced to life in prison plus one thousand years. in a chilling scene, castro appeared to turn around and look directly at michelle knight, the first woman he abducted. but she didn't waver. after years of imprisonment, she would not be silenced. >> never got shorted, days turned into nights, nights turned into days. years turned