>> frank ferri, and tony caparco, one of the first couples to be married day one on same-sex marriage in rhode island. thank you for joining us. >> thank you, lawrence. >> up next, "hardball" with chris matthews. monster. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start with this. it's a ghastly story, more ghastly than most can imagine. three women kept captive in the dark for over a decade, again and again raped, chained to walls. they escaped this may after one of the captive women broke through a storm door on that street and flagged down a neighbor. well, today the monster who did this, ariel castro, was sentenced to life in prison,

plus a thousand years. he had pled guilty to 937 counts of rape, kidnapping and murder. he will never be a free man. but the staggering moment came today when one of the three victims, michelle knight, spoke about the horror of the basement, the horror of the monster who kept her there and used her. >> i missed my son every day. i wondered if i was ever going to see him again. he was only 2 1/2 years old. when i was tooken. i cried every night. i was so alone. i worried about what would happen to me and the other girls every day. the days never got shorter. days turned into nights, nights turned into days. years turned into eternity. i knew nobody cared about me. he told me that my family didn't

care, even on holidays. christmas was the most traumatic day. i never got to spend it with my son. >> that was michelle knight. her captor, who sat in chains throughout the proceeding, took issue, believe it or not, the prosecutor's characterization of him. let's watch him in action. >> i am not -- trying to make me look a monster. i'm not a monster. i'm a normal person. i am just sick. i have an addiction. just like an alcoholic has an addiction. alcoholics cannot control their addiction. that's why i couldn't control my addiction. >> clint van zandt is an nbc analyst and former fbi profiler, and susan filan was a prosecutor. thank you both for coming. i'm a world war ii buff like a lot of us. i once read that hitler even thought he was a good guy. what is it about the criminal mind that's able to delude him or herself, usually him, into

believe thanksgiving weren't doing the obvious? clint? >> well, this guy -- chris, you used the right term, monster. if you look in wikipedia tomorrow, there should be a picture of this, of castro right next to the term monster. this is a sociopath, a psychopath, an anti-social personality, depending on your perspective. but this is something who has been able to delude himself into believing, telling the court, telling at least one if not at least one of his victims, this whole world, that there was consensual sex in this, that there was no torture, that he wasn't brutal to these people. this is a guy who jumped up and down allegedly on the stomach of one of his victims to force her to abort a child she was carrying. he's not a monster? chris, if he's not a monster, there are no monsters. >> susan, i haven't seen you in a while. what do you make of this case? i know it has such a menacing quality. it's hard to take your eyes off of what happened today.

it was on the networks all day long. >> the young woman is absolutely extraordinary, and she is a heroine. and for her to face her abuser in that courtroom so articulately and so expressively. she even had compassion. she ended her remarks with i love you all, with gratitude, and talked about forgiveness. but she didn't say that she would forget. i think she's the headline of the story. she's extraordinary, chris. >> let's take a watch and listen to the words she spoke. michelle knight, here she is again addressing mr. castro directly in the courtroom. >> ariel castro, i remember all the times that you came home talking about what everybody else did wrong and act like you wasn't doing the same thing. you said at least i didn't kill you. you took 11 years of my life away, and now i have got it back. i spent 11 years in hell.

now your hell is just beginning. what does god think of you hypocritically going to church every sunday, coming home to torture us. the death penalty would be so much easier. you don't deserve that. you deserve to spend life in prison. >> so all this is in her memory, susan, all the memory of those sunday mornings when she talked about days leading to months leading to years leading to eternity, the sense of timelessness, that she was never going to get out the of there. and all the time watching this hypocritical captor of hers, this dungeon keeper, going to church every week for appearances, and being aware of that, that this guy is getting away with it. >> yeah, it's really and truly a remarkable tale of courage, that she stood in that courtroom -- mote victims can't be in the same room, let alone in public nor a courtroom with their accuser. they'll have a victim advocate read the statement. she was able to go and speak and make everybody who listened to

her feel what it must have felt like to be her, and to feel her triumph at her freedom now. now, she ended her remarks with someone is listening to me now. i'm being heard and i'm liberated. it's remarkable, chris. this is an unusual tale, not only for the disgusting horrors of the crime, but for the triumph of the victim who is now free. >> well said. remarkably, mr. castro tried to paint a portrait of a, quote, normal home life there. he denied any violence. and even when he apologized to the women, he seemed to deny what happened was all that bad. let's watch him again, the monster. >> i would come home and just be normal, like a normal family. these accusations that i would come home and beat her, and beat

them, those are totally wrong, your honor. like i said before, i am not a violent person. i know what i did is wrong, but i'm not a violent person. i simply kept them there without their being there between. i am truly sorry to the families, and michelle and amanda, you guys know a lot of harmony went in that home. >> there he is looking at her right now. castro also shockingly called the sex with the women consensual and said there were times they asked for it. those are grossly his words, i must say. let's watch him again. >> most of the sex that went on in the house, practically all of it was consensual. this -- these allegations about being forced on them, that is totally wrong. because there were times that they would even ask me for sex. many times. and i learned that these girls are not virgins from their testimony to me. they had multiple partners before me. >> let me go to an expert. and a good friend of mine, clint van zandt. clint, i'm not into this -- sometimes conservatives do this. certainly liberals do.

i think we're all guilty. it's real simple. but my question is given the way we look at things, when you look at the row of houses, show it again, they're not row houses, they're semi detached. but they're really all close-knit homes along the street there. and we're talking almost a decade in which these women and the daughter of course came of this raping. and there they are. these are close together house. if you go to the safeway, go to shop at the corner, go to church, anything you do, people are watching. if you yell at night or turn the tv up too loud, somebody tells you to turn it down. we all know that. how could this happen in a closely-knit set of houses like this, nobody knew about it but the guy? >> well, as we know, chris, this is a guy who was feeding the women fast food. he would come in and maybe give them one meal a day. he'd go out to a fast food burger joint, get them, come in. chris, as you know too, he kept these women chained by their

legs in various bedrooms, in the basement, upstairs in the house. i mean, he treated them worse than dogs. but everything he did was designed for a purpose. just like when he beat his common-law wife time and again and again, because she wouldn't listen to him, she wouldn't shut up, was his term. he justified it. in his own way, he justified all the actions he took, but i think what's important and what's a statement about society today, for ten years he came and went out of that house, he carried food in, he had to carry clothes, packages, other things like this. i mean, that's why when this case first broke, initially law enforcement thought there's got to be somebody else involved, it must be his brother. for this guy to singularly pull this off for ten years and all of the neighbors are hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil, that's a tough comment. that harkins back to the days in new york and that famous murder

that took place over a half hour when that woman was killed. people herd heard her. people heard her being murdered, and allegedly closed windows of their house not to hear the scream. you know, we've got to be able to hear the cries of our neighbors. >> well said. let me go to susan in this. i'm not an expert, and in deference to you and others, i'm not an attorney, but i hear that people who go into prison with child molesting issues and crimes on their record, that they don't do too well. how is this guy going to go into prison for life and 1,000 years with this record of what he's done to women, what he's done to this child. he's not going to do well, is he? >> he's going to have a rough time in prison, no doubt about it. corrections has changed remarkably over the years, and corrections has gotten a lot better. but it's going to be difficult to keep the other inmates away from him who is going to view him as one of the worst of the worst predators there is a hierarchy and a pecking order in prison. amongst the bad guys, there's

the good guys. he's clearly going to be at the bottom. >> that's what i'm talking about. how do the corrections people who are professionals protect this guy? they put him in solitary? >> you can put him in solitary, but eventually he's got to come out for some exercise. you can't long him down 24/7, he will have interaction with other people. it could even be a correctional officer that just can't stand it, can't take it. >> wait a minute. do they put them in with the check kiters and the white collar people who are more harmless people? let me ask clint where. do you put these guys who are definitely vulnerable to their other companions who just hate what they did? >> you know, the terrible thing is there's a lot of guys we can start to compare him with. jeffrey dahmer, of course, the cannibal who allegedly killed victims and ate them, he was murdered in prison. but the arrogance on this guy ace part, if no other reason they're going to have to put him by himself. think for example, dennis rader, the btk serial killer, how he stood before the court and lectured everybody about serial

killers. this guy who pled to over 950 counts still stands there and argues with the judge over, as you suggest, whether the sex was consensual or not, or whether he had actually terrorized these women or not after he plead guilty to these various crimes to save himself from the death penalty. got a life sentence, no chance of parole. but chris, these three young women have a similar life sentence. they have to deal with this thought. they have to deal with the post traumatic stress. and these are the -- these are the stories that come into your mind at night again when you hear a sound, when you pick up smell, the ptsd kicks in. so these women who have only been out for three months after being held in this terrible situation for ten years, they've

got a long road to come back on. >> you know, that's so true. she talked about missing christmas with her kids. just today i tried to write, and i keep thinking of the smell of my mother's cookies and how it comes back into my head what christmas was like. here's this woman separated from her child for all those years, thinking as an adult about what she's missing in the dark, as she's being raped. amazing horror. susan, good to have you back. and clint van zandt. unfortunately we only meet on these circumstances, clint. anyway, coming up, cruz control. the ted cruz wing of the republican party fires more shots at the republican establishment, if you will. how do they think mitch mcconnell likes being called a chicken? well, next one of the biggest questions about anthony weiner's new sexting scandal is about his wife huma abedin and her role in this political scandal. and also about those people that he has been dealing with on the sex aspect of his life. anyway, and the russia, the government of russia, putin has granted nsa leaker edward snowden temporary asylum. a full year he can stay there

now. that means snowden who criticized our country now gets to live under a government that's not much big on freedom. finally, the speech queen elizabeth never wanted to write, never wanted to give, and we never wanted to hear. it's about nuclear war, what could have been said to us. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

here is some news. we may have a race on our hands out in connecticut. let's check the "hardball" scoreboard. according to a new ppp poll, allison lundergan grimes leads senate majority leader mitch mcconnell by a point. one thing to note about this, we always do this, it was commissioned by the progressive change campaign committee, a democratic group. and we'll be right back.

surge on the right or a coup? ted cruz and his allies have hijacked much of the republican agenda. those divisions have cruz's fingerprints all over them.

and that includes the fight over defunding obama care. cruz, along with mike lee, marco rubio and others are all urging their senate colleagues to sign a pledge vowing to vote no on any spending bill that spends even a penny of the president's health care law. the government shutdown is their ultimate bargaining chip. a focal collision of conservative groups including the tea party patriots and citizens united took to the capitol hill today as part of that fight against the president's health care law. their argument to republicans -- you fund it, you own it. well, like flies to honey, cruz and tea party republicans were there to greet them, of course. here they are. >> there's no battle more important than this opportunity right now to finally defund obama care. obama care is the biggest job care in this country. it is hurting the economy. >> it hangs over our economy like a cloud of uncertainty and

people don't know what tomorrow is going to bring. >> we're standing for the people. i hope the president understands that and eventually if we stand strongly enough, comes around and starts standing for the people instead of his party. >> that's louis gohmert, the notorious birther who believes the president of the united states is really from east africa somewhere. he really does. he says it all the time. anyway, party leaders like ted cruz are lurching the party to the far right now. you can see it. the question, are they really going out there to take over the party? right wing surge, attempted coup or bluff? michael steele and steve mcmahon. i've been trying to frame this with the producers here. i'm not sure what the answer is. would ted cruz be all that upset if not only the government shut down but we ended up defaulting on the debt for a couple days? would he be upset with a lat or is that the price of doing business with an establishment?

>> i think it's hard to say exactly where the thinking is going right now. i think that mind-set would be consistent with what the tea party members of the caucus came into washington to do. >> revolution? >> it would be to create the revolution inside the capitol hill itself, in the chamber itself that says this far and no further. the problem, though, the blowout, the ramifications. i'm all for, you know, defunding obama care. i think it's a monstrosity. >> even though it's the law of the land? >> even though its law of the land. this is the point, chris. >> what do you want to replace it with? >> well, republicans want to defund the department of education. this is the biggest point. it hasn't happened. that's the reality. you have to deal with reality. you may want to defund a lot of things, but you've got to deal with the reality of doing it. and actually what happens when you do it if you do it. that's the piece that is still missing here. what are you going to replace obama care with? how are you going to lay out to the american people a health care -- >> so you don't believe that defunding or destroying obama care represents an economic program?

>> pardon me? >> i want doesn't represent a positive program? >> no, it's not a positive program. >> steve? >> michael just talked about what the mind-set. and i think that presumes that there is a mind at work here. these guys don't care what happens to the government. they don't care if we default on the debt. they don't care in wall street collapses. >> why don't they care? what's their motive? what's their motive? >> for those guys most of them i want to have a constituency that will enable to run for president in a republican party that is increasingly on the right. >> i think they're true ideologues. >> they're true ideologues, but they also want to run for president. >> but you're creating something now that you're going to inherit as president that will be far worse. >> here's why i think they're so confident what they're doing. here is a new poll. pew research, not a right-wing organization, probably more liberal if anything. pew asked republicans if they thought their gop leaders should move or the o more to the right or become more moderate? a majority, 54% said go to the right. can you really overestimate the

urge of the republican rank and file which you have represented to just jack it over to the right a bit? just try that thing, a little more crazy. >> i don't overestimate it. but i don't know what that means. how do you define being more conservative? >> shut down the government for a couple of weeks. >> but that's not being more conservative to shut down the government. look, we did that during the clinton years. were they less conservative? come on. that's crazy. >> i don't think it's irrational. you tell me. you shut down the government. they default on the debt the. in other words, we're not paying bills, we're a joke, laughingstock. the chinese give up on lending us money. they start pulling it back. they can stay not only did they win the political argument, they humiliated obama, they made his government look weak and the administration look weak, they screwed up the economic recovery. then they have a win-win. >> i actually don't think it's a win for them to screw up the economy. >> i agree with you.

>> there was a new poll with congressional approval rating at 7%. that's americans reacting to what these guys are doing. nobody wants to shut down the government. >> why are the conservatives saying -- why are the republicans say get to be more conservative? >> they think the government is too big and they would like to see it smaller. but what does conservative mean? does it mean default on the debt? does it mean take everyone's 401(k) down through the floor? does it mean have wall street collapse? you know what? at the end of the day. >> that's where you have to be at the end of the day. >> i look at ted cruz, and i don't know. the guy is young guy, he is new, extremely well educated. i don't want to use demagogue because that's negative. i see a guy who wants to shake things up, he's not even sure how much, but see where the -- he picks up the pieces. >> that's the sentiment of his colleagues as well. that's sort of the back story to a lot of this noise that you see going on right now. >> he said ted cruz won't vote for any spending bill to keep the government going after september 30th that pays for obama care, which means the government shutdown will come. but cruz is accusing of threatening to shut down the law.

this is cruise, here is senator cruz from texas. this is his argument earlier this week. in other words, he's bringing the government down, it's the president for trying to have the program enacted into law passed by congress, signed by him to become a reality. >> the next step will be that president obama and harry reid will scream and yell, why are those mean and nasty republicans threatening to shut down the government over obama care? and at that point, we've actually got to stand up and fight. we've got to stand up and make the argument and win the argument that, no, that's not true. we voted to fund the federal government. we want to fund the federal government. why is president obama threatening to shut down the federal government? because he wants to force obama care down people's throats, because he's not willing to give individual families the same waiver he's giving giant

corporations. >> remember pablo? >> yeah. >> our colleague here for all these years. smart guy. way to the right of the party when he was around here, right? he's not way to the right anymore, of your party. he's not way to the right anymore. pat's somewhere in the center right now compared to this character. >> well, look. again, i go back -- >> what do you think, steve? >> that's extortion. i mean, look, here is what is going on. he doesn't want to raise the debt limit. that's a principle position. he's basically say a law that congress passed and the supreme court upheld, i'm going to have a temper tan -- >> he's a cool customer. >> but it's a tantrum. make mitch mcconnell fear -- >> this guy says it calmly like it's normal. the new normal in the republican party is right wing. >> if you read what he said. >> you agree? >> yeah. >> it's crazy. >> did you see what he just agreed to? >> mitch mcconnell now is living john boehner's life. >> mitch mcconnell is on the left of the republican party. >> he is living john boehner's

life. >> anyway, thank you. it's all true. it's not crazy. it's true. maybe it's both. michael steele, thank you, sir. and steve mcmahon, a crazy august in washington. up next the speech the queen of england would have made had england come under nuclear attack. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

back to "hardball." and now to the sideshow. recent intra-party squabbling between rand paul and chris christie has highlighted the deep divisions within the republican party, but it's also ignited a debate over bacon. at least according to jimmy fallon last night. >> actually, here is what rand paul said. he said in terms of pork barrel spending, christie is the king

of bacon. low blow. in response, christie fired back. he said that kind of name calling is beneath the office you hold, sir. but just to clarify, would i be the king of real juicy pork bacon or that gross generic turkey bacon? to which paul replied, well, i don't know, man, bacon bacon. look, your fiscal values are not in line with the republican party. to which christie said are you kidding? i'm as republican as they come. but hey, back to that king of bacon thing. you think i would wear a crown of bacon or sit on a throne of bacon or i would be eating bacon all the time? dude, it was just a metaphor. let it go. my point is your state spending is out of control. to which christie said, i'll tell you what is out of control, how much you got me thinking about bacon. you do whatever you want with the republican party. i'm about to start a bacon party in my tum-tum. >> anyway, concerned about nsa surveillance continues to mount.

this week after new leaks revealed another secret program called x-keyscore which collects data from e-mails, social media and browser history. while these leaks continue to stoke characterizations of the agency as big brother, here is a parody from "wired" magazine's youtube channel depicting what it's really like inside the nsa. >> special projects, nicole. >> we have a situation. what you doing? >> i'm analyzing glenn greenwald's metadata. >> follow my instructions. are you ready? turn on your computer. >> it's already on. >> oh, you're a good kid. now, listen to me very carefully. i need you to hack a website. >> yes! i've been waiting for this moment. thank you so much. >> your youthful exuberance is wasting precious time. now, i'll give you the information. all right, where are we? >> jeez. >> have you hacked the site? >> yes, i hacked the site. >> was your cover blown? >> no. >> is the data i mentioned still there? >> yes, the data is all here. >> read me the data. >> dear henry topple, thanks for opening an account with geocities.com, the world's

leading e-mail provider now and forever. >> yes, yes. >> your password is password123. >> password123. i've been trying to remember that for years. >> anyway, not a great recruiting video for aspiring nsa agents. anyway, it was the queen's speech. but luckily, it was one she never had to make. documents released by the uk government today included a contingency speech prepared for queen elizabeth ii which was to be used in the event of a nuclear war. well, the draft written during the cold war back in 1983 is a chilling reminder of how the free world lived under the very real threat of armageddon. here is an excerpt. quote, we all know the dangers facing us today are greater by far than any time in history. even the airman prowling the skies above our cities and towns, but the deadly power of abused technology. but whatever terrors lie in wait

for us, all the qualities that have helped to keep our freedom intact twice already during this sad century will once more be our strength. well said. keep calm, and carry on, british to the end. coming up, male politicians and their female supporters. huma am din and sydney leathers, if that really is her name. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. [ male announcer ] eligible for medicare? that's a good thing, but it doesn't cover everything. only about 80% of your part b medical expenses. the rest is up to you. so consider an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan, insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company. like all standardized medicare supplement plans, they pick up some of what medicare doesn't pay. and save you up to thousands of dollars in out-of-pocket costs. call today to request a free decision guide to help you better understand what medicare is all about.

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i would like to know how can i trust you with my family and my community when you can't be trusted in your own family. >> i mean, it's a fair question. it's a fair question. look, you, sir, know some embarrassing things about me and my personal life. that's part of the cost of being an elected official, i guess. people look into those things. i'm embarrassed by it. i've dishonored my wife. but sir, i didn't do it to you. >> i guess that's the issue, i didn't do anything to you. we'll talk about that some other

night. that was anthony weiner last night, talking about the pain and trauma he caused his wife huma amadine. as "people" magazine reports that's coming out tomorrow, after his texting continuing after he resigned from congress, she seriously considered dumping the guy. the recent publicity has been painful, of course, she's human. when he resigned from congress in june 2011 to never, ever again send lewd photos of himself to women over the internet. quote, when we spoke, she broke down. this is deeply upsetting to her, says a friend. meanwhile, as many people are fascinated by the question of why huma would stay with him after all this and encourage him to actually run for mayor and keep encouraging him, a question to "the new york times" this week, why do all these women derive satisfaction exchanging sexual messages and pictures with this guy? is it jacoby?

>> thank you. joining us now with thoughts from your essay. you're the author of free thinkers. and betsy glick is the executive editor of "people." betsy, thank you for joining us. we don't often get you on the show. why put it in a big magazine with a general readership like "people?" how did politics jump the tracks into general readership? >> first of all, chris, it's great to be here. but "people" always covers politics. and we have covered this particular story in the past. in fact, our original story about anthony weiner and his marriage kind of became a part of this bigger story of what he told us and when he stopped texting and sexting and when he started again. so, you know, we've been all over this story all along, and it is a human story as well as a political story. >> what was your last big political story before this one? >> we did a big piece on chris christie within the last couple months. >> okay.

you got me there. let me ask you -- let me go to susan on this. this question of -- i'm just going to step back on this. this is about women. you two women can go over this. the role of women supporters, female supporters of male political people. both the women in this case in this weird story, it's not a triangle exactly, but it's a three-part time. you have the husband, the wife and this woman who sexted back and forth with this guy who is running for mayor of new york. the question is why did both these relationships start with political associations, and then even the one online and the one in real life, the real and the virtual all began with politics and ended up with these personal relationships. what does it say about how politicians male and female allow politics to lead to this kind of thing in both cases? in other words, he used his political relationship with people to develop other people. one a wholesome marriage, the other a very unwholesome relationship. susan? >> chris, i love you and your show, but i think what you said is how the media is missing the bigger story here. anthony weiner.

>> that's why you're here. >> anthony weiner happens to be a politician who is engaged in what millions of americans, men and women are engaging in every day. of course we're fascinated by it because he is running for mayor of new york. but i think the larger question here is why is it -- this has been framed as males abusing their power and female victims. the fact is, is that any woman who doesn't delete these kinds of e-mails, whether it comes from a politician or joe nobody as it usually does is making a choice to participate in not only sexting, but a lot of virtual sexual satisfaction that goes on on the internet. so i think there's a much bigger story here about what kind of a society we are, about women as well as men, and as far as huma abedin goes, chris, you've been married a long time. you know that nobody knows what goes on in a marriage.

i think the media -- and that goes for both males and females -- ought to cut this woman a break and stop asking why she doesn't leave her husband. what business is it of ours? >> let's talk about the political piece. it's not just one person running for mayor or two people running for mayor. betsy, and that's the story. that's what makes this interesting. if it was just one guy out there with all the problems, let's face it, it wouldn't have the human interest. there is a lot of interest in why. they're a political pair. howard dean's wife, a perfectly normal marriage, she had nothing to do with his politics. i have senile politicians whose wives never campaign with them. they just don't do it. she i think it's a story that people find compelling. >> i think huma stood up next to him, she spoke at the podium. she don't even pull a spitzer.

she spoke. they have, you know, they were in "people" showing us their family. they were in "new york times" magazine, showing the world their family. she is a part of the story. there's a basic curiosity. of course i agree with susan completely that we should not be demonizing her. but demonizing is different from really wanting to explore the nature of this relationship. >> let me go over to this other woman, sydney leathers. it's a strange name. everybody laughs about it, because everybody laughs about sex. but sydney leathers, i assume that's her real name. what do you make of her? susan, you are writing about this. what is this story on people who live in a virtual world online? they don't have lives, i guess,

that's your angle, but they seem to have lives at the computer? on the laptop. >> that's really the question. sydney leathers, or whoever she is, is 23 years old. the point i was making is that there are hundreds of thousands to millions of sydney leatherses by other names who participate in these activities. i had on my author website today a very thought-provoking e-mail from a 25 years old who said who are you to be judging me about having virtual sex? i owe $75,000 in student loans, i work two jobs. if that's what i want to do when i come home at night, who are you to be saying that? >> i love it when people do that. >> i'm not judging her, but i think what we need to think about, and sydney leathers no less than any other woman out there is why, if we're doing that, we're spending time on that, you're making a choice to spend time on that. sexual fantasizing with strangers rather than maybe going out and meeting somebody real. and virtual sex, what kind of a society are we when we're too tired to even look for real sex? forget about real friendship. >> let me go to betsy one last chance.

i do agree with you. obviously it's a big story. everybody has been covering this story from every possible angle. henry kissinger, he's still with us, i just saw him a couple weeks ago. henry kissinger once said that power is the greatest aphrodisiac. is that really at the heart of this story? is that two people have marital weirdness going on, it's this guy is running for mayor of new york and could have possibly won a couple months ago. i don't think he will probably win. who knows with new york? but i think that's what is interesting to us, power. what's interesting, power. >> gosh, i don't know. i'm hear to talk about sort of our incredible reporting about why they are together and the timeline of what he told his wife and what he told the public. and i don't think this is a relationship about power. they have a very small child together.

you know, i think that genuinely they love each other and they are working on their marriage, and she, huma, is an incredibly powerful person in her own right. she is not running for office, but she is incredibly accomplished, and, you know, is hillary clinton's right-hand person. and to say that -- if you were saying that she's in it for power, that's not what our reporting shows. >> i think power is an aphrodisiac. any way, thank you, betsy glick. thank you for coming on for "people" magazine. it's on the stands. a great issue. i think i bought the last issue -- i bought the kate issue. i'll get to this one. thank you, susan jacoby. up next, russia defies the united states and grants asylum to edward snowden. they're going to give him a year over there. i guess he's going to learn russian. do americans view him as a traitor or a whistle-blower? i think we know the answer. it ant traitor. this is "hardball," the place for politics. progressive insurance. you know, from our 4,000 television commercials. yep, there i am with flo. hoo-hoo! watch it! [chuckles] anyhoo, 3 million people switched to me last year,

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edward snowden gets asylum in russia, and here in america most people think he is a whistle-blower, not a traitor. "hardball" coming back on this one, right after this.

let me just say this, because i think it's important.

he's not a whistleblower. he's not a human rights activist. he's wanted on a series of serious criminal charges brought in the eastern district of virginia in the united states. >> we're back. that was official state department characterization by jen sake there, the spokesperson of former u.s. security contractor edward snowden's status two weeks ago from the state department. that was her reminding reporters that snowden is, indeed, a wanted fugitive by this government. our government. snowden, quote, the most wanted man on the planet, has been holed up in the transit zone of a moscow airport for nearly six weeks but in a new twist to this interview saga, russia granted him temporary asylum today. snowden left by taxi to a nearby secure location. he can now live and work in russia for up to a year while his application for permanent political -- i guess it's exile is pending. a recent "washington post"/abc

poll shows three out of four americans believes the massive collection of phone call data by the nsa, national security agency, that snowden personally exposed intrudes on our privacy rights. you got it. 3/4 of don't like what they've been doing. while the white house and state department may consider snowden a criminal, even a traitor, he may have performed a public service for exposing these privacy concerns, sparking a national debate which goes on over the government's far-reaching security tactics. joining me now is pulitzer prize winning columnist eugene robinson and simon marks. gentlemen, i want to go with eugene here. i don't know whether -- to me, the isn't so much putin's enjoying this, exploiting this, obviously it's an opportunity for him to tweak us. >> sure. >> as it is what we think as americans. >> exactly. >> about him, and what we think more importantly what we think of our government. >> exactly. what we think about him and, you know, is he a good guy, is he a bad guy, you know, i don't care about that. i do have strong opinions about what we've learned courtesy of edward snowden. >> and you don't like it? >> no, i don't like it. and it's ironic, of course, that

officials from the president on down are saying of course we should have a national debate about security versus privacy and all this stuff. well, we couldn't have that debate unless he had leaked the stuff. they weren't ever going to tell us. >> so the ends justifies the means? that's a hard one. >> look. the fact that we now know that there are secret courts developing a secret body of law interpreting the 4th amendment and we can't even know about it, what opinions say? >> simon, you get this? i think this is the american debate. jump in here. it's probably true of every country. there is two important political questions in our lives, the relationship between our government and us and our country's role in the world. >> it's absolutely true, chris. >> go ahead. >> it's absolutely true, chris, and this is a debate that is taking place right now in other parts of the world. i was just doing a radio appearance on a radio station in london where they're discussing whether the british government shouldn't have granted edward snowden asylum and stood up for him because the polling data here and there suggests that

most people view him as a hero for having released this information. >> well, here are some numbers, by the way. 74% now say the government has been intruding in our lives basically. and we don't get many polls that are 74%-22%, gene. >> no, we don't. there's another interesting question in that poll. there is another question that asks is it more important to protect our privacy rights or to investigate possible terrorist threats? and more people said it was important, like, 57%, who investigate terrorist threats. >> but you can do this without holding this -- >> exactly. it's perfectly consistent if there's an investigation, you have a target. if you know what you're looking for. as in a 4th amendment search. >> but surveillance is not investigation. >> and gathering a huge, huge mountain of data, of our personal data with no suspicion. >> simon marks, i'll give you more time next time. we're just short tonight. thank you. you're a great gent to come on tonight as always.

thank you. and i'm glad to hear the world perspective on this. eugene robinson, simon marks. we'll be right back after this.

"let me finish" tonight with this. when an american says he loves his country, means he loves an inner air, an inner light in which freedom lives, in which a man can draw the breadth of self-respect. that was how great adlai stevenson sought to describe the love we have for this country. the freedom we feel deep within

us, being able to get up each day and go to bed each night distanced from the power of the state. so we come to the case of edward snowden. 3/4 of the american people now believe the nsa surveillance system he exposed intrudes on our privacy rights. rarely do we get this kind of verdict on political matters, but we've got one here. as patriotic as we are, as loyal to the republic, we don't like it penetrating into that inner life we lead, that inner light where we can think, feel, speak to others of our most intimate views of life, love, politics, all the way from the affairs of the heart to the grandest affairs of the nation. so it doesn't surprise me that we've got mixed views of edward snowden now about to begin a year living in russia. the important point to me is not what putin thinks of what this guy did, but what we americans think of what he told us our government is doing to us. the latest verdict is that by adlai stevenson's definition of things, the government has gotten a little too much into our space. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in chris hayes" starts right now.

good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. tonight on "all in" nsa leaker edward snowden leaves the moscow airport behind and enters russia with temporary asylum. what does it mean for his future? and for the already tense, fraught relationship between the united states and russia? also tonight, you probably know who this tony bennett is, but there's another tony bennett who should be way more famous than he already is. thanks to an outrageous story of apparent corruption that you need to know about. plus, mitch mcconnell has long lived by the old adage, slow and steady wins the race, but news out of kentucky should make the republican senate leader, too slow and very, very unsteady. we begin tonight with a story that i honestly and frankly did not think would be topping our broadcast. today ariel castro was sentenced