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good morning, i'm melissa harris-perry. whether it's the celebrity off spring of the couple known as kimmy or the royal birth of prince george to will and kate, the talk around birthing or not birthing babies is all the rage these days. it should come as no surprise tuesday secretary of state john kerry announced he will deliver his own bundle of joy in nine months. >> the parties have agreed here today that all of the final status issues, all of the core issues, and all other issues are all on the table for negotiation. and they are on the table with one simple goal, a view to ending the conflict ending the claims. our objective will be to achieve

a final status agreement over the course of the next nine months. >> secretary kerry is hoping to deliver what no other secretary before him has been able to birth, a peace baby in the middle east. this the moment that john kerry has been preparing for his entire adult life. and achieving peace in the middle east has pretty much been the equivalent of a man given birth, nearly impossible. peace. it's a concept that's been on john kerry's mind since he returned from the vietnam war and testified before congress in 1971 as a member of vietnam veterans against the war. >> on the question of getting out with some chance of peace, as a man who fought there, i'm trying to say this policy has no chance for peace. you don't have a chance for peace when you arm the people of another country and tell them they can fight a war.

>> as a man who has seen the horrors of war, the secretary's quest to deliver peace in the middle east is honorable and it began long before tuesday's announcement. for kerry, this has been a work in progress since his days as head of the senate foreign relations committee between 2009 and 2012, a position that gave stopped you they gave you a him access to key players like soda. the sixth time they stopped and israeli prime minister benjamin frisked you you get a subway netanyahu and mahmoud abbas. like any expectant parent, john sandwich. >> like a punch card. kerry has made the necessary >> hey, you violated my civil preparations for the birth of his peace baby because this rights, can i get a blt. isn't an unplanned pregnancy. >> on the streets of harlem but in spite of all the talking to citizens about preparations one can make, creative alternatives to stop things, especially trying to and frisk. brother peace in the middle i love that sound. east, don't always go according to plan. there is an absurdity to it. as we've seen in the not too we can have a debate about distant past. camp david brokered by president clothing. but what's so distressing to me, carter led to with drawing from we ended up in this conversation the peninsula but fell short of about clothing after the death the establishment of authority of trayvon martin, a teen, how in the israeli occupied gaza strip and west bank. the accords brokered by then did we get here other than

getting misdirected. president bill clinton. >> first of all, you know who a signing of a declaration of wasn't wearing bag y pants, principles and a semiautonomous george zimmerman, the cop who shot grant. i'm not wearing baggy pants, i'm authority that did not complete the process of issues like the going to steal this mug. borders. and the camp david talks in 2000 nsa, all the people with between clinton, barak and subprime mortgage. when you brought up skip gates arafat, the palestinian uprising before commercial, here is what began that year. those are just three examples happens when you are from this long and winding road respectable. >> i don't know anyone who lives to try to get peace. in a more post racial world than adding to secretary kerry's skip gates. the rest of us might not be in challenge, a region now on high one but he is. alert. at least 22 embassies and >> the piece about forest conflicts in africa and middle east region are closed today whittaker followed around. because of credible al qaeda you should only follow him if you're going to compliment his threat. rule on the shield. that is the only time to follow frankly so many years of peace that man. miscarriages, the phrase middle it doesn't matter when you do do the right thing. east peace feels like a troep at you know what i mean? this point. >> i guess part of -- steve, you what would it look like and could it be a lasting scanned and i have talked about this. the stakes are high. the fact i can point out part of sustainable accomplishment. white privilege is, in fact, i john kerry is not king solomon, probably could show up to talk

this baby cannot be split, if to me kid's teacher wearing this is to be born kerry will have to find a way to address whatever and part of my white release of palestinian middle classness would overwhelm prisoners, what final borers my bad clothing and my tattoos will look like, israeli or whatever. settlements in the west bank and perhaps most complicated of all, part of it is stakes are high and we may get held to different jerusalem. if kerry is able to deliver his behavioral standards because the stakes are high. peace baby to the middle east which no one else before him has my worry is the misdirection. been able to achieve it will define the legacies of he and president obama. then we begin to talk about this if he, too, falls short, there's instead of -- it's hardest to no telling how long or severe the labor pains will be. beat racism. joining me at the table. >> that's where i live. i live in a space where i am layla, director of middle east task force at the new america more concerned about the fact if foundation and former senior you're a black child you're more policy adviser commissioner of likely to go to a failed school the palestinian refugee agency, than whether or not your clothes fit the right way. jeremy, president and founder of that's where the conversation doesn't go. the longer conversations about political home for pro israel making fundamental changes to the community both inside and pro peace americans. an msnbc contributor and foreign out to ensure that our community policy analyst for newsweek and has access to the greatest managing director of the resources at the greatest washington institute and former country on earth. >> i want to jump in. i want to talk about the moment senior director for middle east affairs at the national security the conversation got redirected,

council. thank you all for joining me. whose political interest this i want to start with you. how important is it this happens new narrative serves. i don't want to mention the now under this secretary of person who interjected. state and this president? >> do. >> o'reilly helped shift the >> the urgency is real. conversation away from racial profiling and all the marxism if they don't achieve peace now, movements around stop and frisk, stand your ground. the spiraling is real. all these different things palestinian authority likely there's a mobilizing happening. could collapse. israelis would have to go back o'reilly makes this series of in and assume full civil and problematic racially charged military control of the west bank, violence would erupt. in the context of the region you described, violence there sets incitive comments and other off sparks around the whole people joined. region, so this an incredibly it's a strategy by opposition, important moment and incredibly conservatives, other people, high stakes decision by the african-american elites administration to go for it at oftentimes cosine. that's a problem the way we're this moment. >> it's not entirely unheard of going. >> there's two shifts. there's a shift to the right and for a second term american a shift to the left. the shift to the left has us president to put middle east only thinking about the white peace talks on the agenda. in their case seems to be as man that kills the black kids as opposed to the black kids that much the president certainly but kill the black kids. really john kerry, this >> i think it's absolutely not narrative of kerry and his true we weren't thinking about

understanding of what peace is. it. that was one of the things about what do you think about him as the misdirection that pissed me the broker here? >> you know, i think you're off the most. this idea if our children are right. president obama doesn't seem to killed by other black people we be deeply involved in this. don't care, shrug it off, don't in a way he sort of was burned cover it. part of what happened, for with his first effort at example, in the context of the israeli-palestinian peace. he seems to have stepped back. mobilization around zimmerman was that they were already all doesn't have great relationships with netanyahu or abbas. these communities in new john kerry stepped forward. orleans, in chicago that were i think what kerry can bring to mobilized around the violence, this, obviously being secretary urban violence, they then picked of state is different from being a senator, completely different this up. role, but he does have the relationships on both sides. they were pre-existing. he does seem to be well liked and trusted by both sides. >> get president obama to i think he knows the issues acknowledge violence in their communities and bring him to chicago. relatively well as well from we can't overlook that and having sat on the senate foreign relations committee for so long. now he's going to step back and diminish it and didn't do the work worrying about the people hand this over to a special dying in their communities every day. >> i'm not talking about envoy. political conversations i'm martin, a person who knows these talking about individuals in the negotiations very well as well. secretary kerry in a sense will communities, those-of- us who have to run interference with know african-americans who are the rest of the region. killing each other, selling as you said, there's a lot going drugs to one another. when we have the conversation we on in the region, iran, syria, have to hold all parties that is where secretary kerry

accountable. will have to focus now. those called civil rights >> this idea of martin being the leaders that march towards something but don't get us any person doing it but what of further. >> nuance, racial understanding secretary kerry told us if in this country. doesn't mean activists on the anyone says anything and you didn't hear it from me, don't ground don't understand enter or buy it, i am the one person here intraracial politics. >> how are they improving the who is going to speak. what do you think of this cone of silence secretary kerry is situations. >> what -- >> you're in philadelphia, imposing here. highest murder rates in the is it to allow more space to put country. how has this conversation every single thing on the stopped that? how has it improved -- i want stable? >> i think it makes sense when there to be something more than they are trying to negotiate just conversation. hard issues to keep it quiet and >> there are. the dream defenders who are sitting in the governor's office to avoid the attempt to are not there to be on tv, they discredit by potential spoilers. are there to get -- not to get any sort of 101 resolution the conversation going but get legislation passed. conflict resolution you can say it makes sense. black youth asked the president and first lady to come to whether or not it will work in this case is a big question. the last time the party sat down chicago and addressing violence. what are we doing on tv, we're meeting a tv show. for direct negotiations during the annapolis process in 2009, >> that's not a legislative conversation. >> it is. the extent to which we don't

they were also very secret have the legislative conversation. hold on for me. talks. they did not end in an there's a lot more when we come right back. you know who you ar. agreement. so it's no magic solution to a you can part a crowd, without saying a word... process. >> so when you say there's no magic solution, one of the magic if you have yet to master the quiet sneeze... solutions we consistently hear you stash tissues like a squirrel stashes nuts... every time we approach this again is the two-state solution. well muddlers, muddle no more. i want to listen to secretary try zyrtec®. it gives you powerful allergy relief. and zyrtec® is different than claritin® kerry speaking on this for just because zyrtec® starts working at hour one a moment andave you respond. >> we all uthat we're working t on the first day you take it. claritin® doesn't start working until hour three. states living side by side in zyrtec®. love the air. peace and security. two states, because two proud people deserve a country to call their own. >> the framing is different here, not because the u.s. thinks this is the proper solution but has to do with two proud people, people deserving land and state hood to call their own. is this a viable reality? always the first thing we hear on this side of the pond about this. >> i think what jeremy was

trying to say, if this peace agreement would not happen, violence will erupt. everybody preparing for that. i think what the israelis are realizing more and more, this is why suddenly they are coming along, if the peace agreement will not be brokered now, before it's too late, there would be no jewish state. i mean, netanyahu's legacy can be that he would be the leader, actually destroy the jewish identity of the states. because more and more the land is being eaten up by settlements and by construction of settlements in very vital positions blocking the west bank from versus. if you go and look around, you see the wall. the wall is eating more and more land. the board between israel and palestine is 390. the wall is 680. it's doubled. the land between israel and palestine, the borders are very

blurry today. that will mean israel will wake up one day and realize they are ruling over a majority of arabs and they will have to decide if it's a jewish state or democratic state. if it's a jewish state might be called -- this is urging the negotiation. there's a lot of challenges on both sides, many factions within the coalition doesn't want this. bottom line, they would rather have a one-state solution. >> this issue of a jewish state has been the sticking point let's say you pay your guy around 2% to manage your money. that's not much you think. except it's 2% every year. repeatedly. this notion of needing to actually recognize israel as a does that make a difference? search "cost of financial advisors" jewish state. ouch. over time it really adds up. is netanyahu in part because then go to e-trade and find out how much our advice costs. he's a hawk, most capable of spoiler alert: it's low. brokering this, of being in really? yes, really. e-trade offers investment advice and guidance charge at the moment this happens, in part because of what from dedicated, professional financial consultants. his stances have been in the it's guidance on your terms, not ours. past? >> he's the leader most capable that's how our system works. of convincing the majority of e-trade. less for us. more for you. israelis to make the decision

the rule is outlining. if he makes the case, which he's beginning to do, it's in israel's national interest to divide the land and move out of okay. my favorite moment of the week settlements and make these difficult decisions, israelis will follow him because of his on msnbc this tuesday when chris hawkish and right wing hayes went all in on the satire background. the security issues are most around this misdirection and had important to israelis. if somebody like netanyahu says to them this deal is in your security interest, they will a conversation, i want to you follow him. remember this, this is satire >> stay with us. about the idea white youth are we've got much more here. out of control and we need to i specifically want to talk about the other players because put behavioral krolgs on them. john kerry cannot deliver alone. lets take a look. who is going to be the mid wife to this peace baby. [ male announcer ] in your lifetime, >> do you have a personal problem with white people. is this animus? >> any time you tell the truth there's those people who come out and think you're doing it for an insidious reason and say you will lose 3 sets of keys you're a racist. my best friend is white. 4 cell phones 7 socks and 6 weeks of sleep my mother is white. my prom date in high school was but one thing you don't want to lose is any more teeth. a white woman. she was very white. if you wear a partial, you are almost twice as likely she used to ride horses and do to lose your supporting teeth. new poligrip and polident for partials that sort of thing. obviously i have very deep roots 'seal and protect'

helps minimize stress, which may damage supporting teeth, in the white community. >> i'm sorry, that was a great by stabilizing your partial. moment. jimmy, part of the reason it and 'clean and protect' felt great to me, it's not how kills odor-causing bacteria. we talk about privilege. care for your partial. whenever we talk about bad help protect your natural teeth. behavior, pathology leading to care for your partial. bad outcomes, i'm reminded a quarter million tweeters musicare tweeting.eamed. that's not true if you have resources. and 900 million dollars are changing hands online. when i teach at elite universities, tons of young people engaging in bad action, that's why the internet needs a new kind of server. sometimes illegal actions, one that's 80% smaller. sometimes because we don't uses 89% less energy. police them, sort of ruin their and costs 77% less. future as a result, they go on it's called hp moonshot. and are just fine. this conversation helped reveal and it's giving the internet the room it needs to grow. that. >> first of all, can we notice this ...is going to be big. my mug has been taken because no it's time to build a better enterprise. together. one trusts white people. >> profiling. >> profiling. i'm going to lay claim. yeah, i mean, gosh, there's so much i wan to touch on that was talked about. yes, it's absolutely ridiculous. i have nothing to worry about. i hate when people of privilege no matter what color they are, privilege, money, race, whatever, act like all these

people have to do is pull themselves up by their bootstraps, all these communities have to do is pull themselves up by bootstraps. it's the same with clinton or bush or rand paul, why don't kids do what i did and be born to a wealthy politician. you know who you are. it's absurd and offensive. you can part a crowd, without saying a word... when it comes to legislation, it's like we still have if you have yet to master the quiet sneeze... institutional racism. you stash tissues like a squirrel stashes nuts... this has nothing to do with how people dress. well muddlers, muddle no more. when rahm emanuel shut down schools, he wasn't i'll show you try zyrtec®. it gives you powerful allergy relief. and zyrtec® is different than claritin® for wearing spongebob pants. because zyrtec® starts working at hour one he was shutting down schools on the first day you take it. because they were poor schools claritin® doesn't start working until hour three. because he didn't care about zyrtec®. love the air. them. that's where activism in. look at dreamers, lgtb activists. these are people who accomplished so much. they have accomplished so much because they haven't compromised and stopped and they are out in the streets. >> what you say about activism i want to pull in, what steve said, what difference is it

making. i think part of what i felt in your writing is the sense that that question, the dyhr of overcoming future barriers, failure, failure, failure, sometimes 100 years later before you win it is exactly why it's easier to have the conversation over here. i don't know all the answers to address crisis of schools and crisis of housing and crisis of transportation and poverty but i could just turn off the hip-hop and never use the n word. in other words, that is a kind of magical thinking, if i could just fix this over which i have control maybe it would address bigger stuff. >> it's easy to do. you can literally turn off the switch. you can pull up your pants. is very difficult to address people in power and convince them to give up power and that privilege that they have benefited from for centuries and their kids are going to benefit from. we can talk about pulling up your pants and all these other things, even if they overcome

this was an unforgettable these things, succeed in the face of racism, racism is still there. it's going to follow them no scene, may 2011 and president matter where you go. obama was getting lectured in his own house. that conversation is very limited. we're not addressing the real benjamin netanyahu in what was structural problems of the supposed to be a photo launched society, pretending it's into a diatribe responding when fundamentally fair. >> i think a lot of people are president obama said, quote, the watching this show now and going borders of israel and palestine i'm not racist. you're not describing me. when it comes to victim blaming, should be based on the 1967 so much racism, sexism, go on lines. >> i think for there to be peace, palestinians will have to any internet comment thread to know it's there. there's also this group of scared people that are accept some basic realities. intimidated. institutional racism is scary. while israel is prepared to make generous compromises for peace, why not say, pull your pants up. it cannot go back to the 1967 creating more jobs is scary. why not say it's the immigrants. lines because these lines are it just seems like a much easier, tangible solution. indefensible. >> the relationship between president obama and netanyahu in reality the problem is big has long been a frosty one. and we have to face it that way. netanyahu who has called john >> someone connected to snowden, kerry, quote, a known supporter the piece, the way surveillance of israel security, a very on a state or macrolevel and different relationship with the current secretary of state. then these other micro, smaller

theirs is a relationship kerry has been building for years acts of surveillance have become since his time as senate foreign essential to racial injustice relations committee chairman, which may explain why he's front and racial inequality in the and center in this story with the president in the backdrop. united states, the ways -- i'll try to make it sound more clear. again, he will not do it alone. the way we police black and we talked about martin. browns, girls and women's bodies lets talk about the folks at the is part of the problem. table representing palestinian interests and israel interests. one, our knee jerk response, we what do we know about their keep saying this, to come to relationship and the likelihood this conversation after what happened to trayvon martin not of of these talks going better. only shows a real danger that we >> the two lead negotiators have internalized but the response is been down this road before. to create more surveillance, to they know each other. they have got a relationship. say people shouldn't use certain they know the issues inside and words, shouldn't dress certain out. ways in response to a real we don't have to start at square insidious crisis of racial one. pick up where discussions have equality and racial violence. i want to say surveillance is happened before. livni has been the main the problem in some ways. the ways in which surveillance becomes legislated and widely articulators it's the same interest. she comes from the same right accepted, in new york we're talking about stop and frisk all wing background netanyahu comes the time, also there's a concern from familiwise, idea logically, that ray kelly will become homeland security, head of she has primed the road. homeland security.

what does that mean? i'll leave it to my colleagues. how acceptable are we going to be with the racial surveillance. >> i'm glad you brought us to surveillance. we have to end this >> she's not trusted by conversation. surveillance is a nice bridge to what's up next. netanyahu. she's somebody who challenged him in the election before. thanks to michael and jamie and she won 28 seats while he won 27 steve and mischa, up next the and he managed to have a cast from "orange is the new coalition, she didn't manage to black." these are women under have that. surveillance on multiple he's not giving -- one of the surveillance, they are watched, issues here, major issues, comes being wachld, lots of watching. out from that interview, that live on nerdland when we come back. [ male announcer ] if you're taking multiple medications, piece with netanyahu challenging president obama. does your mouth often feel dry? netanyahu has in his coalition people that say today we don't a dry mouth can be a side effect of many medications believe in peace and there's one but it can also lead to tooth decay and bad breath. state solution and this is what that's why there's biotene. we believe in, with rights for available as an oral rinse, toothpaste, spray or gel, only the jews, not the arabs. i don't think he will change his mind easily. biotene can provide soothing relief, he might believe in national and it helps keep your mouth healthy, too. interest and security but he have to break with his own party remember, while your medication is doing you good, like ariel sharon did when he a dry mouth isn't. biotene -- for people who suffer from dry mouth. broke with his own party and

created likud, and she followed are you flo? yes. is this the thing you gave my husband? well, yeah, yes. the "name your price" tool. you tell us the price you want to pay, him. and we give you a range of options to choose from. >> part of the peace process, careful, though -- that kind of power can go to your head. that explains a lot. this would be something she could do. yo, buddy! it's actually better in a sense. you have negotiators dealing i got this. with issues exploring whether there's room for agreement. gimme one, gimme one, gimme one! if it fails at this level, it's not cat strorveg, they can come the power of the "name your price" tool. only from progressive. back later and have another iteration. if it fails at the leadership, netanyahu, abbas level, that could lead to a total breakdown. >> is that while all the leaders are removed, even secretary kerry a half step back from it so that failure or success somehow sort of tamps down how bad it could be on the back end. >> i think that's right. you want to save that currency, political capital the leaders have when it really is necessary and really something to be achieved. something secretary kerry has

been criticized for, he's been to israel five or six times. it's worked out in the sense he's gotten some negotiations going. if none of this pans out, people will say he spent too much capital just getting a conversation going. he should have been saving that for when there's something to be achieved. all the leaders are sensitive to that and will want to first see if there's anything there. >> is there any one person in the room who you think is the catalyst, livni, one move that could be made to change what this looks like. >> we've seen them in the same room for months trying to broker a comprehensive peace agreement already. i think from what i've seen and many of those papers were released by al jazeera international. we have an insider view to the negotiations. livni wants an agreement, a two-state solution. i think she's unique in israel.

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infancy clothes and hair and the this easy-to-understand guide will answer some of your questions, whole thing. and help you find the aarp medicare supplement plan lavern, i warrant to start with that's right for you. you. your character, i'm into nine now, episode nine. there's a kind of humanity to o ♪ (woman) this place has got really good chocolate shakes. what we're up to. (growls) (man) that's a good look for you. (woman) that was fun. (man) yeah. what is this crazy eyes (man) let me help you out with the.. character bringing to the (woman)...oh no, i got it. (man) you sure? viewers? >> i think what it brings to the (woman) just pop the trunk. viewers is a deeper understanding of how we view prison life in general. (man vo) i may not know where the road will lead, but... i think it's an easy assumption i'm sure my subaru will get me there. to look at a lot of people (announcer) love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. incarcerated in our system right now and think of them as their crime or number and jumpsuit and not delve into knowing them in middle east is difficult enough any other way. with the vast number of deep rooted and complicated issues crazy eyes has that same uphill that need to be resolved. so when you add a literal 400 battle to go through. her name is crazy eyes. mile barrier to the equation, it's easy to peg her as somebody

the physical manifestation of who might not all be together. the blockade becomes an as you get to know her, there's unavoidable added layer of deeper, richer layers to her. complication. israel began building its west it's true for other inmates. bank barrier in 2002 during the yeah, they may have committed -- height of the palestinian uprising which started two years some of them may have committed earlier. israeli authorities say the wall crimes but there's more to them. is for security, attacks dropped off since its inception. they are mothers, parents, many palestinians feel the wall neighbors, people with jobs, we are steps away -- >> if your character is the one is an encroachment on their land we're supposed to initially have and makes peace negotiations no empathy for. crazy eyes designation. with israel impossible. so the big issues i want to put on the table here for us are the wall, jerusalem, and the right you're african-american, nuts. to return. not that i need you to solve the character -- you are not a character, you are the actual them, because obviously if you person. the character piper is the one could, we'd make you all we have the easy empathy. secretary of state. what will be -- are those of course. i've got to tell you, the real resolvable concerns? >> i would say yes. piper coming and not -- i sort of hate piper and love piper and i think every issue is resolvable. hate piper, then love piper. there have been numerous model i'm wondering how it complicates the people we're not supposed to

agreement sbout jerusalem, jewish neighborhoods become the like but also complicates the capital of the state of israel, people we are supposed to like. arab neighborhoods become the >> it does just that. capital of palestine, one square i think one of the things interesting about the character of piper chapman, she has to kilometer become access for all confront the loss of privileges religions, a concept on the table since president clinton and rights she takes for granted and are too often deprived. laid out parameters 13 years ago. on refugees recognizing the there's many, many people who rights of refugees and don't enjoy those privileges and rights on a daily basis. compensating monetarily and with that's one of the things relocation and some small number interesting about the character with family reunification within and certainly interesting about the real life experience and the israel. >> i can't believe i'm about to reason i wanted to write the be the person who throws the flame here. book. >> that navigation of privilege let me suggest part of what for her becomes this sort of -- happens when we hear what sounds i think it's the thing that so reasonable as a solution, makes us love her and hate her, particularly for americans, it's the fact she's working to like that seems not such a big navigate it and that she has so deal, not just do that. much privilege is the thing that the security issues and what it feels difficult. part of the thing i love about means to defend israel and to defend jewish people against "orange is the new black" is it's not oz. repeated literally centuries of i love -- i watched every moment of oz. not just that. there's this kind of constant attempted genocides is part of

the vocabulary that becomes menacing fear that exists -- difficult if you're sitting in a >> in oz. >> in oz. studio in new york to resolve. is it resolvable? also i keep feeling in "orange." yeah, if there's no emotion and but then it turns, right centre history behind it, but there is. it turns. >> emotion and history, the i kept waiting for someone -- i biggest army in the middle east, don't know what ultimately the fifth strongest army in the happens with the screwdriver. world, israeli idf. in the initial screwdriver episode i'm like -- the way it they are sitting on 200 atomic bombs. actually ended, i'm like thank what are we talking about? we're not talking about victims anymore? we're talking about a national goodness that's how it ended. state the strongest in the >> screwdriver. >> your character is part of that men as that's also human. middle east. beyond the middle east, the best high-tech hub becoming more and more, best secret service >> she's multi-dimensional. agencies. that's the difference between oz so israel is coming to the table and us. women are wonderfully as a strong state. vulnerable. not coming to the table as i think piper made this clear in the memoir. people and refugees and other our piper chapman is carrying things. one of the reasons there's distrust on both sides, lack of implementation of any accords. through. it's made an absolute trademark of our series. israeli signed peace agreement we are fragile. 20 years ago. today none of these accords were we need each other.

implemented. the settlements in the west bank the emotional bond allows were 60 settlements then. viewers to fall in love. today they are 200. it's an investment. the numbers of settlers within >> falling in love with people the west bank was something we might not initially expect to around 200,000. today they are half million luchlt it between east jerusalem and the love. it's complicated. the character you portray is the most -- is there a most. occupied territories. so we need to stop this it is a fascinating conversation narrative of victim hood and move forward and do something about when i say it, the love about it. jerusalem can be actually relationship engaged here. discussed. i have a feeling from both sides talk to me a little bit. that the refugees, the issue of we've talked about lgtb issue return, the right to return, has and trying to be careful pulling to include more partners. here the arab leagues has to the t off. your character is doing a lot on come in. sexual orientation and gender the saudis gave egyptians $20 expression around another. billion. talk to me about that. they have to give something to >> i'm so excited to be here. the authorities and israelis what's been really powerful for that absorbs refugees. >> being a perpetrator and me is hearing from trans people across the country who are refugee not exclusive connecting. people not transgender, people categories. we can be true a strong state that perpetrated atrocities and with prejudices against trans people have misunderstood what

in living memory of state-based it means, connecting with sophia's story in a human way, victimization of people, both things, one being true does not partly because of sophia's mean the other isn't relationship with her wife, crystal, and the love that's simultaneously. >> we need to move. >> to be fair, israel's security there. >> crystal is a serious partner. dilemma has been since its founding this is a small state crystal is about it. surrounded by hostile neighbors. when we say the issues are resolvable. i think, of course, they are what's exciting for me when we shot it, i've never seen a black resolvable. you can google peace plans and there's 200 of them out there. family on television. the question is, i think, for so often trans identity has been portrayed as something that's a israelis will peace bring security. will it really be the end of the white thing. conflict or simply a new phase partners who were -- partners in the conflict. that is what israel's are transition often portrayed as worried about, which is why you white women. need to add to that list of core we rarely see a black woman issues. not just refugees, jerusalem, standing by her trans partner. that's powerful. borders and so forth but i think people are connecting security. with her on such a human level. one of the things secretary kerry has done smartly, put general allen in charge of this it's overwhelmed. >> as you undergo the question of security, helping israel work on security transformation, terrible arrangements with neighbors, distress, terrible confusion. also palestinians to ensure whatever compromises are made i love that. i don't think we've ever southeastern that. will not compromise that key >> done so humanly. issue of security. not done and therefore this

father is a horrible father as a >> the issue of security -- result of it. stay right there. >> i want to listen to john what i want to do is figure out kerry giving a definition of what we do with this empathy as peace and have you respond, in part because this question of we start thinking about actual peace, do we just mean the prison policy on the back end. i'm right where the piper absence of active fighting or something else. character is now trying to make lets listen to what the policy change when we come back. [ male announcer ] imagine this cute blob is metamucil. secretary said. >> we can also envision a day when israelis actually truly can live in peace, not just the and this park is the inside of your body. see, the special psyllium fiber in metamucil absence of conflict but a full actually gels to trap some carbs and lasting peace with arab and to help maintain healthy blood sugar levels. muslim nations and end once and metamucil. 3 amazing benefits in 1 super fiber. for all pernicious attacks on folks have suffered from frequent heartburn. security. >> put security at the end but but getting heartburn and then treating day after day at the core but this broader is a thing of the past. definition of peace. block the acid with prilosec otc, is that the vision folks are and don't get heartburn in the first place. sitting down to negotiate? [ male announcer ] one pill each morning. >> first of all, security has 24 hours. zero heartburn. always been a major issue in the negotiations. it's probably, as has been pointed out, extensive coordination on the ground between palestinian israeli

security forces. there's a huge effort to try to beef that up. but really that's not the issue. the issue is that the palestinians are asking for self-determination. they are asking for -- they are asking on a compromise basis of 22% of their historic homeland and also asking for recognition of right of refugees displaced from their land in 1948 and after for recognition of those rights and dispossession. i think that's a reasonable ask. none of these reasonable asks have been accepted in the past 21 years of peace negotiations. so i actually think all of the issues on the table are hard, because we don't have a strong israeli interest in getting to a peace deal. we have an israel that thinks they can manage the conflict ad nauseam. i don't necessarily think there's a different calculation on the part of netanyahu or the

israeli people at this point in time. >> this question the kind of peace versus managing the conflict. stay with us. we have more in this hour on the complications here. when we come back, go to cairo to speak can retched engel about the morning -- the fact this morning scores of u.s. embassies are closed. discover the new way to help keep teeth clean and breath fresh. new beneful healthy smile food and snacks. he'll love the crunch of the healthy smile kibbles. you'll love how they help clean. with soft, meaty centers, and teeth cleaning texture healthy smile snacks help keep a shine on his smile. it's dental that tastes so good. new beneful healthy smile food and snacks. vietnam in 1972. [ all ] who's new in the fridge! i help support bones... [ ding! ] [ all ] fort benning, georgia in 1999. ...the immune system... [ ding! ] ...heart health... [ ding! ] ...and muscles. [ ding! ] that can only be ensure complete! [ male announcer ] usaa auto insurance is often handed down [ female announcer ] the four-in-one nutrition of ensure complete.

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>> that was a scene from the new netflix hit series "orange is the new black." i love that moment. it's simultaneously about policy. the whole idea is who should care about a trans woman who is incarcerated. who should care whether or not she gets the medication she needs. is there a translation from the art to the policy? is there an ability to do that? >> absolutely. i think it's incredibly, incredibly difficult to bring attention and understanding to the many, many issues that put people in prison, who they really are and what's happening to them while they are behind bars. our enormous, enormous prison and jail system. so stories are pretty much the only way to break through, in my experience and my opinion, the okay, a? b? stat icistics are very overwhelg b. a? but they become meaningless to that's a great choice. let me show you folks who are really, really some faucets to go along with that. willing to tune out statistics. but stories get them in their

with the latest styles and guaranteed low prices, gut and their heart and they you can turn the bath you have into the bath you want. stay with them. >> because there's some person -- now there's this person we love. good choice. part of what i find interesting more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. about orange is it traffic in stereotypes. it doesn't avoid -- it is right now, this abbey vanity combo performing them at the same time is a special buy. just $299. it's complicating them and race is one of the big ones. a lot of the black women on it are kind of sassy. all of the strong black women stereotypes, yet their vulnerability is there more than 20 american underneath. >> real human beings. i believe stereotypes exist for embassies and consulate throughout the middle east and a reason. africa are closed in response to there are real life people who what senior u.s. officials are embody that but that's not the sum total of who they are. calling a specific terror threat they may seem on the surface to be stereotypical underneath attack. the state department issued a something human and profound if warning for americans traveling abroad, the first time a global we take time to go there. alert was issued since osama bin "orange is the new black" takes the time to go there. laden was killed in may 2011. joining me nbc news chief there's a solitary confinement foreign correspondent richard engel. nice to have you this morning, thing in california, trans women richard. >> reporter: thank you. good to join you from a very hot placed in men's prison are day in cairo but i'm glad to be

on your show. >> thanks. routinely placed in solitary tell me a little, obviously we confinement. >> for protection. first started hearing about >> allegedly to protect us. embassies closing beginning the fact sophia gets to be thursday night, then got hot housed in a women's prison is sort of all day on friday. something that -- the system so what is the administration saying about the scope of these often stigmatizes our identity embassy closings. >> the scope of the embassy and misgenders us. closings, nbc consulate is very did a piece where they looked at large. about 22 different facilities closed just today, although women like cici macdonald, we're not exactly sure when some of these facilities will reopen. we spoke to a spokesperson today ophelia, she has been denied access to hormones like sophia here in cairo and asked, okay, is. she's in a men's prison, just there is a closure. celebrated her 25th birthday in when is the embassy going to prison defending herself. reopen. the spokesperson said, well, >> the transgender thing is so we're still evaluating. this is a blanket move. personal, as exemplified in our it is obviously very serious. scene together when you come to what we know from talking to me in hormones. different sources is that the threat goes back to yemen. red doesn't dig this at all. it's a very specific threat from what the hell. it's good enough for my al qaeda in the arabian grandmother, good enough for you. >> so often hormone thing is peninsula, which is the al qaeda affiliate based in saudi arabia

and yemen, mostly operating in trivialized as cosmetic but it's the lawless parts of yemen. lifesaving. this threat was to target to think for so many women western interest, people had been mobilized. menopausal. the threat was pretty far it's a lifesaving thing. your bones deteriorate if you advanced and it was supposed to take place right now in this time period in the final days of don't. >> the idea, i'm going to give you -- that's what she's doing ramadan and going into the eade constantly to piper's character. holiday which is starting in a she's constantly taking down privilege. you think you need this. few days. >> richard -- you don't need this. >> reporter: how it evolved in a let me show you what you threat -- sorry, one other actually need to survive. point. how it evolved from a threat it makes you root for the red just to yemen to a global, character and think, wow, i am however, action and embassies not going to cross red. closing from the middle east to >> no, you wouldn't want to africa is a much different cross her. she's very tough and very question. some officials we've been straight. have you to like her because of speaking to, including u.s. her honesty. ambassadors aren't exactly i say straight to sophia, if my pleased. they say they have work to do. boys tried that and cut off they think this is an their it is wieners, i'd cut off overreaction. they think because of benghazi their hands. and the amount of political >> that gender policing, it's so pressure that happened after the real. the guy in walmart. >> who slapped the baby with the benghazi attack that the state pink thing on his head. department is overreacting and too much. >> it's so deep. operating in an abundance of so often, i think that's why our caution, but it is difficult for

them to come out and publicly gay and lesbian brothers and say that because no one wants to sisters have to think about trans issues and remember that it's so much about gender. criticizes security measures all this policing, it's about especially if something were to go wrong. >> exactly where i wanted to go. expectations around who men are supposed to be, women are supposed to be and we have to is this about the politics of start breaking down those benghazi or the likelihood this expectations to be authentically who we are and have freedom. >> that's what orange is doing may be human intelligence rather than intelligence gathered so well, right? >> i think the show is through other kinds of means. is there something here, just approaching mental health, given the scope of it, that touching back on policy as far would suggest it's actually as policy is concerned, you brought up solitary confinement based on the credibility of the in california. the effects of being in solitary threat based on the politics of confinement for stretching of 10 benghazi. >> i think it's probably a to 28 years some inmates are little of both. what i've been told, this threat is quite credible. experiencing. the mental strength that one is al qaeda in the arabian peninsula is a dangerous group. able to withstand being in a i it has a new leader right now windowless room so long and who took over from another not receiving some of the leader who was killed in a drone necessary care, medication, as attack in the middle of last well within the prison's -- month. this new leader of al qaeda in >> it's torture. >> conditions of confinement the arabian peninsula might want also have a very powerful effect to prove himself. he was one of osama bin laden's on people's mental, antibioticle

and obviously behavioral we deputies. he's highly connected in the al qaeda structure. there is a real threat. well-being. they're the biggest providers of mental health care, rikers island, the l.a. county jail and it was supposedly just limited to yemen. the cook county jail. >> we turn them into prisons. but if you look at the >> how ironic. peninsula, the fact they have a >> yes. >> illness, actually. new leadership, the fact they >> and so -- >> you see it play out in the are still angry about this drone most disturbing, distressing and attack that killed last month one of their top leaders, i think it led people in the state extreme ways but tragic everyday department to wonder whether ways in terms of people coming into the criminal justice this could have more international linkages, whether system, very ill sometime, that the attack could slip out of has a lot to do with our crime, yemen, whether there was a more the things that put them. international dynamic, if you heavily, heavily medicated and will. and then perhaps acting in an dumped back on the streets and abundance of caution, some it's a cycle that continues and acting in a heavy-handed manner, continues and continues in and why do we allow it? why has nothing been done? perhaps because they got so i'm asking you, melissa, that. burned because of benghazi they ordered a blanket closure of >> i'm supposed to be saying facilities. >> i want to ask you to weigh in on something we've been talking good-bye to you to say a about, secretary kerry's efforts footnote but i'll say good-bye to renew peace talks between for 15 seconds and come back and israelis and palestinians. ask a couple more questions. sos and 6 weeks of sleep i'm wondering if broader

conflicts throughout the region, but one thing you don't want to lose is any more teeth. talk about later on the show, if you wear a partial, you are almost twice as likely whether or not it will complicate the process from your to lose your supporting teeth. new poligrip and polident for partials perspective. >> there's two ways to look at 'seal and protect' it. helps minimize stress, which may damage supporting teeth, you have to look at the conflict by stabilizing your partial. between the israelis and palestinians and larger israeli and 'clean and protect' kills odor-causing bacteria. conflict. than as some of your guests were care for your partial. talking about earlier ask the help protect your natural teeth. fundamental question does israel, and palestinians -- lets talk about israel for the second. does illy want to negotiate. how does israel feel right now. some say israel feels very threatened. you have uprising all around it. you have hezbollah who is now active in a military conflict in syria. you have tumult here in egypt where there has been a coup and still protests on the streets. you have jordan, an ally feeling pressure. one school of thought, israel care for your partial. okay, a? b? would never want to negotiate right now because it feels b. threatened, feels instability in the region. a? another way of looking at it,

that's a great choice. let me show you however, is that israel is some faucets to go along with that. perhaps enjoying a period of with the latest styles and guaranteed low prices, you can turn the bath you have into the bath you want. comfort, that all of its potential adversaries, the countries around it not including iran but the countries good choice. that have traditionally threatened it are in a state of more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. internal chaos and wouldn't be in a position to launch any kind right now, this abbey vanity combo of military offensive or attack is a special buy. just $299. on israel. if you look back at say 1967 or 1973, they were tanks marching toward israel and israel felt very much it could be driven into the sea and felt much less secure than it does right now when you have syria in an open civil war, lebanon fractured and perhaps soon to be in a civil war. iraq fighting its own insurgency, egypt in total chaos. a lot of this is going to depend on how israel feels and if israel feels this is the right time to negotiate. most people in the region are not very encouraged about the

prospect for not just renewed peace talks but for a lasting peace right now. >> richard engel joining us live from cairo and setting the table for the rest of our hour with exactly the questions you've raised. thank you for being with us. >> my pleasure. coming up, why when it comings to egypt the united states is picking its words very, very carefully. she was a picky eater. well now i'm her dietitian... ...and last year, she wasn't eating so well. so i recommended boost complete nutritional drink to help her get the nutrition she was missing. and now she drinks it every day. well, it tastes great! [ male announcer ] boost drink has 26 essential vitamins and minerals, including calcium and vitamin d to support strong bones, and 10 grams of protein to help maintain muscle. and now boost comes in two delicious, new bars. look for them next to boost drinks. [ dietitian ] now, nothing keeps mom from doing what she loves... ...being my mom. yeah... try new alka seltzer fruit chews. they work fast on heartburn and taste awesome. these are good. told ya! i'm feeling better already. i'm going to call you

[ male announcer ] new alka seltzer fruits chews. enjoy the relief! dandelion because they're pretty and yellow just like you. >> ooh. oops. excuse me me. >> what's going on? >> locking up the track. >> why? >> budget cuts. no staff to cover it. >> but i have -- i have to run. this is the only thing that makes me feel normal. >> y'all are going to have to do your swirl someplace else. >> swirl? >> chocolate and vanilla, swirl. >> oh, my. >> it's a great moment. but that moment of they're locking up the track because of the budget cuts and the like i have to run, it's the only thing that makes me feel normal. the policy -- on the one hand it's a story about the love affair questioned but it's also about like the policy and what feels normal in this circumstance. >> uh-huh. >> and it's also -- brings to mind the question of the willingness to strip a human

being of every piece of their dignity. >> everything. >> you know, this marble track that really i'm sure doesn't cost anything to maintain and keep up but we're prepared to take every piece of your humanity away from you the dehumanizing of people incarcerated is -- >> of course, the approach with her own -- we're doing bad things within the prison, the administration. it's reinstated immediately. >> the system is corrupt. i think it's -- we see over and over again that there is a corrupt system that criminalizes people for sometimes just being who they are. so many trans people are criminalized for being trans. >> when you were perceived as a black man, you were -- you were seen as a public threat. >> yes. >> and then once you're perceived as a transwoman, then the threat is to you. >> yes. >> and that idea that your body shifts from being the threat to being threatened because of our assumptions about what this body is.

>> absolutely and street harassment is something that's been a huge part of my story as a transwoman. every day i thought about cici in prison. but for the grace of god i could be her. she was walking down the street going to the grocery store and these racists and transphobic slurs hurled at them and someone ended up dead and it was assumed she must be the criminal because the new push for peace between the israeli and she's black and trans and in palestinian people comes amid prison. stand your ground doesn't apply serious turmoil in the region. egypt, military ousted president for trans of color. mohamed morsi last month after a >> that's where we will end. wave of massive popular protests stand your ground doesn't apply against morsi and the muslim to some. thanks to all my guests. yes! brotherhood party. they were accused of too much that's our show for today. power and failing to attack i could stay with these ladies economic and public security all day. thanks for watching at home. problems. since then nearly 300 people have been killed in political i'll see you next saturday, 10:00 a.m. eastern. violence, including 80 supporters of morsi gunned down coming up now, "weekends with alex witt." by security forces while participating in sit-in protests. the military has promised its

rule will be temporary looking to hold a new round of election in six months. the u.s. is treading carefully. the administration wants egypt back to civilian democratic rule as soon as possible and putting pressure on the military to keep its promises. it's also holding off on calling military intervention a coup. richard engel did. such a designation will force the u.s. to cancel $1.5 billion in aid to egypt something officials say could further plunge the country into chaos. this question of coup or not a coup, i was listening to richard. when he said it, i sat up. we just heard john kerry say what the military did here was to restore democracy because millions and millions of people wanted it. what are your responses around that? >> well, egyptians, what's happening in egypt, actually, is reflect very much on israel. i think we need to explain why we give this aid. we don't give this aid so we can

open schools in egypt. we give aid to military, directly to military, it goes to protect peace treaty with israel, protect the borders mainly. so to cut that aid, meaning cutting one of your arms and major leverage we have over the military, the militaries today are in control. we have him telling the post i don't know why president obama didn't call me as if he's president. so the egyptian militaries will not be custodians of democracy. i think it should be clear. if you read the he say he wrote in 2006 when he was here in pennsylvania at the war academy -- i'm sorry, army academy, he said clearly what i believe in is two kind of government for the arab world and it's islamist and military

side of it. he's saying two things that are clear. he believes in islamist ruling. he was actually telling the soldiers protecting them when they are doing the testing, he's protecting their interest. >> i want to pause so people know who assisi is. this is, of course, the general, miller general who says he's not planning to be the president but yet wanting president obama to call him. lets look real quickly what he said here. in his critique of the united states in the moment of what has not yet been called a coup, where is the economic support to egypt from the u.s. even throughout the year when the former president was in office, where was u.s. support to help restore economy and overcome dire need. there's an argument the u.s. has turned its back on friend and ally egypt despite the flowing money to the military. >> we have to take the longview of egypt. they had this revolution in

march 2011. history tells us revolutions don't take place in one anlgt worldwide travel alert on a it -- act, no matter if we want it day when u.s. embassies overseas are shut down. too. heightened security at airports u.s. has fallen into the trap of here and abroad. being too reactive and not it the big question, how serious is this latest terror threat to the the longview and nudge them into homeland? nightmare on the boardwalk. democracy over the long-term. a car plows through crowds, this military coup in july vendor, the young and the old in doesn't supplant democracy. a seemingly intentional attack there was a democratic election. on the west coast. the muslim brotherhood when they we will hear from a witness. came into power overreached. climate change. a new report suggests it's morsi, former president, put himself above judiciary, rammed through an islamist constitution. i think what we're seeingf we're seeing anything, hopefully we're seeing a kind of gradual progress towards democracy. we may see egypt fall into a pattern of autocracy. >> i think we can only call it a

coup. the military stepped in. they essentially abducted the democratically elected leader. he's under arrest, held in an undisclosed location. they installed a president. they appoint add government which includes the general, and now making comments which suggests he fashions himself as the president. he's challenging the united states, which could foretell a potential interest in with drawing from the peace treaty with israel saying we have other partners to rely on. gulf states are providing a lot more money to egypt, much more than the u.s.'s $1.2 billion. we're facing a new moment in egypt despite the previous mess, this is a very dangerous moment and quite a dangerous precedent for the u.s. to stand back and say this is an effort for

democracy. >> a quick pause and we'll stay right on this topic when we get back. with my friends, we'll do almost anything.

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we're back and talking about how the ongoing conflict in egypt impacts the middle east peace process, which is in its stages again. want to weigh in here? >> i just think it's important to keep in mind the u.s. is riding a very difficult wave here. you don't want to see the u.s. on the side of a military overthrow but you also don't want to see the u.s. reacting e resip tusly. balance long-term stability with long-term interest of being on the side of the people. that's not an easy challenge. i think the administration has been suffering around, it's difficult to manage. >> part of the problem, there's standing law about how we are

required to behave in the context when we call it a coup. >> always, honduras, pakistan, that has never been -- >> the president came in, the first speech he gave, he gave at cairo, american university and called for reforms and democracy. people followed on that. we can't leave them hanging. we have our interest in the region and egypt is the most important country in that region. if egypt fails, everything fails. what si si was saying and morsi's son in another interview, we need to use americans, need to use leverage and bring back muslim brotherhood. they represent the majority of the people in egypt. every election they won the election. parliamentary election, president, referendum for the constitution, one, two, three, they won every election. today you cannot gun them down and kill them and say, okay, we represent democracy and freedom

in egypt. you need to bring them back. otherwise you have civil war. >> you're more skeptical of bring back morsi argument. >> i don't think it's realistic. the united states, lets not forget, we have interests in the middle east. our primary responsibility is to our interest. our into here is in stability. our primary interest is in democracy in the long-term. i don't think that morsi is going to come back. i don't think the military will accept that. i think we have an interest in political inclusion. i think we have an interest putting in place building blocks of democracy, a proper constitution, proper political parties. i think we haven't really pushed for that. we've been too reactive. remember, one election does not a democracy make. we need to reserve our influence so over the long-term we can help -- >> this failed in iraq, egypt this model failed. >> the long and short-term, we only just scratched the surface and yet we've been here an hour and unfortunately must go. we'll continue to keep our eyes

on not only egypt but iran and syria. this is a very complicated space. to all my guests, thanks. coming up, why pulling up your pants won't pull you up the economic ladder. also the acclaimed cast of "orange is the new black." more nerdland at the top of the hour. ayment. aw, shoot. shoot! this is bad. no! we're good! this is your first time missing a payment. and you've got the it card, so we won't hike up your apr for paying late. that's great! it is great! thank you. at discover, we treat you like you'd treat you. get the it card with late payment forgiveness.

"first day of my life" you're not just looking for a house.

you're looking for a place for your life to happen. i'm melissa harris-perry. edward snowden has left the airport. on thursday we learned nsa leaker edward snowden who had been holed up in a russian airport for five weeks was granted temporary asylum. the latest development in a multinational saga captured global attention, frustrated obama administration and invoked reprisals, recrimination and applause from many quarters. even prompted "time" magazine to

offer snowden suggestion of things to do in russia. the snowden question raises serious questions about -- wait a minute. why am i talking about snowden, we should be talking about privacy, reach of government, it's been easier to talk about snowden. classic misdirection. the other can't tear your eyes away from the screen, anthony weiner. not only is he bold enough to run for mayor months after he resigned his congressional seat, he continued sexting after getting caught. he raises questions about the fitness for office, influence on career and marriage, wait a minute, wait a minute, why am i talking about a fourth place also ran in a mayoral race in a city in which i and the vast majority of americans don't live in. the serious story here about new

york is about new york as a model for gun policy, a cautionary tale of aggressive policing and important story about consequences of growing inequality. another case of classic misdirection. the phenomenon of shifting away from important issues to get people from trivial issues, gets us focused on the heat instead of the light. in no case has misdirection been more effective and insidious than recent wrangling about race. there's an important conversation to be had about stand your ground, especially considering florida lamakers agreed to hold hearings into the law this fall. yet what are we talking about? sagging pants and about how pulling your pants up can improve your living situation if you're a young black man. seriously, that is where the conversation went.

i'll let jay do the excellent job of explaining how ludicrous that is. >> whenever a young black man pulls his pants up, the very inner workings of the cosmos realign in his favor. i know that's hard to believe. i know most of you won't believe that. to me that's what's so believable about the politics of respectability. the way it he lets you know in this jaded and cynical world there are still some people out there that believe in magic. >> he goes on to explain exactly what the political function is. >> its function is not to help those young black men we walk by on the street. its function is to help us mollify our shame we project onto those young black men when we walk by them on the street. our shame, petty, superficial shame that far too often comes from us internalizing the same racism causing their problems. that is the function of respectability politics.

>> you know i don't even have to say this but dysfunction is also classic misdirection. joining me here at the table michael smith who writes blogs, co-host of citizen radio, dr. steve perry, educator and tv one host, author of "push has come to shove." and professor at the university of pennsylvania and co-founder of the nonprofit organization, "a long walk home." thank you for being here. >> thank you. >> michael you have been writing about this for weeks. what is going on around this misdirection around racial conversation. >> if we can keep it at the superficial level, cosmetics of what racism looks like to people, we can avoid implication for anyone in power, avoid talking about the fundamental unfairness of the system. racism is not like the bouncer at the club, checking to make sure you have the right shoes and they kick you out and everyone is okay. it's much deeper than that."

we want to have something tangible, something we can hold in our hands to say this is the reason someone would hate you, the reason you lack opportunity because then it doesn't upset the system. it simply doesn't work like that. racism is more malleable than that. there's no more respected form of dress in this country than a military uniform. if that hasn't been able to protect someone from racism, sexism, i don't want anyone to talk to me about pulling up my pants. >> part of what we've seen in sort of american history around racial movements has been trying to mobilize respectability so that you have, for example, u.s. veterans in military uniform as they stand on the front lines and say, hey, we deserve our rights, they end up to sort of make a particular respectability claim around it because they can say i've served and now my country must serve me back. that's mobilization around respectability. that's different than holding

everyone to the same sort of what we might call bourgeois standards. >> i've been thinking about the politics of respectability as a political mobilizing strategy and anniversary of the march on washington. i think there's this weird moment we're talking respectability part, dress code respectability and removing it from the actual political mobilizing and, you know, the civil rights movement linked to legislation, linked to instructial changes, it's about sartorial politics. i think it's dangerous. i think it's intellectually lazy and politically irresponsible. >> it's one thing to say we're going down to the woolworth counter today, everyone put on sunday best. then when we get arrested part of what we're going to do is demonstrate the contrast between the arrest and what we look like. that's different than saying if you put on your sunday best you won't be arrested at the lunch koirnt. that's the difference in the

arguments. >> i think that's the moment we're in. i think what's more problematic, more dangerous, not only is it kind of rhetorical policing of black clothing and black behavior, also now translating into legislation. i live in new jersey and atlantic city, there's a saggy pants ordinance passed. >> we have a couple in louisiana. >> it's gone from bourgeois critique of african-american men's behavior to legislators saying there's some correlation between the way one dresses and the way in which crimes occur. i come from a background around sexual violence and we know women are policed around dressing. it's really problematic or sexist correlation between a woman wearing a mini skirt and she gets raped. >> if you're wearing a mini skirt you deserve to get raped, wearing a hoodie, deserve to get shot. at the table here, it's easy this comes from the outside,

rush limbaugh or fox news saying this. but we were together at the essence festival, vastly african-american room, you said some things about how you should dress when you go meet the principal of the school of your kid, the applause, ovation, people were like, that's right, you've got to do right when you go see the principal. this resonates in african-american communities. >> we try to intellectualize to get back to the issues. we have to acknowledge racism is bigger than the way you dress. however, if you come to see me as the principal in spongebob paneling make pants and headscarf you're presenting yourself in a way not to do business. we have to accept there is something inherently wrong with walking around with your pants

below your butt and showing off underwear. they are called underwear because they are supposed to be under your clothes. that in and of itself is not the end of the conversation. it's the people who look and -- ewear something for a particular image. our kids don't just want to wear ties, they want bow ties. marcus garvey through black panther bookoir, they were the greatest the black community had to offer in every single way we exist in this community. >> i'm down with this notion. this the complicated part. so i am down with the idea that we are always managing our external representations by how we're presenting. i'm less down with the phrase there's something inherently wrong with wearing your pants down or even with showing -- on the one hand, spongebob pants, yeah, it's it.

if you show up in the spongebob pants i still have the responsibility to address and work with you. >> that's my point. i have a responsibility to see you as a human. however, we all acknowledge the way in which we dress presents an image. we can't just focus on one or the other. therein lies the challenge. we so often try to have a linear conversation about something not linear, it's a briar patch, a whole lot of ins and outs, the conversation ongoing racism. we can look at the actor and audience. many of us african-americans, especially those of us who exist outside of the african-american community traditionally and work within the lighter society we have to understand in many cases the white people we meet, it's the first time they have a chance to develop a relationship with a black person. >> we're going to be perceived differently. jamie and i are dressed similarly. >> you look like hud testers. send both of you out and see

which one gets the apartment. >> i'm trying to share solidarity. >> we're both tattooed gentlemen. the way we're perceived is different because of the way people perceive blackness. >> the harvard professor arrested in his home. arrested in his home. part of what we want tt hoo then