p talking about. ever. hurry in to the volkswagen best. thing. ever. event. and get 0% apr for 60 months, now until september 3rd. that's the power of german engineering. a bloody week and an uncertain path forward. egypt's latest political turmoil erupted this week into some of the bloodiest violence this country has seen in years. with protesters dying in clashes with the military, that was in just one day on wednesday, according to the egyptian ministry of health. just minutes ago, the health ministry also reported that 173 people died in violence across the country yesterday. including 95 in central cairo where a demonstration billed by the muslim brotherhood as a day

of rage against wednesday's massacre desnded into violence. demonstrators emasing in cairo and across the country in support of former egyptian president, mohamed morsi and who was deposed by the military in july. the brutality prompted president obama to cancel joint military exercises with egypt that had been planned for next month, that was a rebuke of egypt's military leaders, but he also had a stern warning for egypt's interim government speaking from martha's vineyard on thursday. >> given the depths of our partnership with egypt, our national security interests in this pivotal part of the world and our belief that engagement can support a transition back to a democratically elected civilian government we've sustained our commitment to egypt and its people. but while we want to sustain our relationship with egypt, our traditional cooperation cannot continue, as usual, when civilians are being killed in the streets. >> for the latest on the

situation now, we go to msnbc news foreign correspondent live in cairo. >> good morn, steve. a tense situation is unfolding. a mosque where dozens of supporters of the president seems to be developing. in that situation a gunfight has broken out outside the mosque and tear gas inside the mosque to try to get the supporters out. throughout the course of the early morning we headed down to that mosque and negotiations to try to get the people inside to leave, but it seems they did not trust the environment outside. they did not trust their safety or their security into the hands of both the police and the military that were outside. also men with sticks were seen circumventing the mosque. so, it was a tense atmosphere to some extent. no doubt about it, there were people there who worried if they

came out of is the mosque, they were going to be arrested. police trying to get them out with the use of force and the police came under fire from an individual inside the mosque who appeared to be firing in their direction. a very tense situation that is unfolding in the last couple hours here in cairo and comes on the heels of a very violent day and one that has the muslim brotherhood undeterred. they will continue with their street protests despite the fact that even the son of the group's leader was killed yesterday and the fact that many of their leaders are still being rounded up by officials here. there is now discussion among the cabinet to possibly dissolve the muslim brotherhood legally. that is now another consideration and certainly one that complicates the political and security landscape here in the country, steve. >> i want to thank ahman live for us in cairo. i want to bring in host at

"huff post live" mark ginsburg and steve clemens, washington editor at large for "atlantic" magazine and a at the truman project. i'll start with you. we had ahman mentioning the idea now being circulated that the military leaders will try to dissolve the muslim brotherhood. the question is, what would that mean, practically speaking? it has been around for 80 something years. can you dissolve something like that? >> no, that's why it's laughable they're taking that strategy. i don't want to poke fun at what the military is doing. what you have is a military that slaughtered hundreds of its people. obviously, blame on both sides but this is all the products of political failures. they weren't able to mobilize into a political group and morsi in his political failures and now, again, an interim government that is appointed by the military that is completely

failed to protect egyptians and keep egyptians secure. when we talk about cracking down on the muslim brotherhood, dissolving them. this is 2013. sure, for decades they were marginalized and pushed underground, but it's 2013. the world is watching, just like we were in 2011 and i just don't understand why the general chose to adopt this policy even though every single person who knows egypt well, whether from the west or inside egypt knew that this would happen. now, the chances of political reconciliation are nonexistent. >> i want to pick that up. there were two stories this morning that caught my eye. one was in the "washington post" that said the united states and european leaders had been close to maybe brokering a deal, brokering an accord where street protests would end and a pledge from the military leaders of nonviolence and the generals were the ones that ultimately said, no, we can't go along with that. "new york times" this morning basically said the attacks and

encampments on wednesday were an attempt to provoke a response from the muslim brotherhood so to say they're fighting terrorism and push the muslim brotherhood ahead. do you buy into the idea that provocation was sort of the idea at the root of this? >> from the moment the army sent the signal 48 hours before they deposed morsi that they made the calculation that they were going to go to war against the muslim brotherhood. this was calculated in advance and they saw their equities as failing under the regime and i agree with ahmed that for the army to basically say we're going to liquidate the muslim brotherhood like saying we're going to get rid of the arm ay. while facebook and twitter and the social networks have been a very important feature of the arab spring, another part of the democracy movement throughout the middle east and north africa region is the rights of political islam. so, to send the signal to these

young, we talk about the youth bul bulge, but young, arab, mostly men, but women and they are worried about what their aspirations are and sending these folks back under ground is what the military is going to do. promises to see instability not only in egypt, but throughout the region. the brotherhood, much like china. this is very much, but at that time they didn't have the social networks and a lot more resilience across the sort of young, islamic crowd than there used to be. we were looking at those in tahrir square who were prodemocracy and maybe not part of the muslim brotherhood crowd. but they're using the same techniques. >> are we at a point where we talk about political reckoncil reconciliation the goal everybody had in mind for this. you had the democratically elected president which termed out of office and now hundreds being killed who are protesting him being killed. is it even possible that there

could be a political reconciliation in the political future? >> the biggest concern i have when i look at this, separate from the political issues. if you look on facebook and twitter and have egyptian friends, almost a complete dehumanization of the other. this is going on both sides. you hear people saying that the people, the brotherhood protesters are not really egyptian. i don't know what they're supposed to do. perhaps martian. you know, people saying they're palestinians or something, but just saying or that they're terrorists meaning it's okay to kind of go in and use violence to kill them. and then on the other side, you have supporters of morsi who have said this is a war against islam and that the church was behind the coup and you see through the egypt, particularly in upper egypt, churches on fire. and christian schools and a real siege of the very important historic community in egypt. so, before you could even get to national reconcilization, people had to stop dehumanizing each

other as -- >> can we talk to, one thing i have been trying to figure out, maybe you can speak to this, what the split looks like in egypt among the population. we talk about the military leaders being afraid of political islam, but also an interesting story i read this morning, this was in "the times" a working class neighborhood in cairo and talked to a teacher and auto mechanic and said they're supportive of what the military is trying to do now. what the split looks like in egyptian society. >> this morsi and muslim brotherhood and the christians or what have you has to be eliminated and deconstructed because a lot of people at the sit-ins especially yesterday when we saw dozens and dozens being slaughtered and a lot weren't supporters. a lot concerned at the military's brutality. we saw it after mubarak was ousted. they killed many, many people. you're seeing this narrative in the media that is being

perpetuated. the muslim brotherhood are tean then you see the opposite true which is why they were shut down and you see al jazeera, just as al jazeera is about to launch here in america, you see the egyptian government shutting it down because it's propaganda to a certain extent. so, so many different factions and groups within each group that i think it's too difficult for anyone to come up with a clear policy if they're using this narrative of morsi and brotherhood because they are democratic aspirations to be realized. >> so, ambassador, looking at that from the standpoint of the united states and how to respond to something to like this, given the realities that ahmed outlined for us and the goal here for the united states, at least articulated we want to get back to democracy and have a peaceful reconciliation here. what practically can the united

states can and should be doing in a situation like this? >> we can sit here and stand up for our principles and i believe in the end we could have suspended the pipe line of aid instead of talking about a military exercise that the egyptians would have canceled on their own. let's be practical about what is going on here. there is aid in the pipeline. i'm not in favor of completely suspending the aid. in the end, let's also understand we need the egyptian military more than the egyptian military needs the united states. the egyptian military is going to get whatever money it needs from the gulf states, if the united states cuts off military aid. however, in the long run, the military pipeline and i've spent a lot of time over the years understanding this pipeline. the egyptian military, not so much the money that's the issue here, it's the training. it's the equipment. it's the spare parts and we also need the egyptian military to help police the sinai peninsula. they have been very effective in the end as a strong component of

u.s. foreign policy in the middle east. at that same time, the egyptian military needs the political leadership of egypt to help create the facade that they're going to have a pivotal transition. when mr. al bardai resigned, he was criticized by his cohorts in the political leadership for resigning. notice, very few other political leaders outside the muslim brotherhood sphere resigned from this government. why? because there's significant popular support in egypt for this crackdown. you know, we're sitting around the table making this out to be somehow one of the muslim brotherhood enjoys widespread popular support in egypt. an essential component of egyptian society but it does not have the deep, popular support right now that we would think it has just based on the pictures that we're seeing. >> i want to pick that up in a second. interesting point you made there, too, what the united states needs from its

relationship with egypt with the military. what we get from that and what kind of leverage we have. you mention the aid. i want to talk more about that after this. llenge. take control of your nutrition with each delicious bar provides boost bars are perfect with a meal or as a nutritious snack. plus, they are available in chocolate and peanut butter chocolate flavors. a great-tasting way to get the nutrition you need. brand power. helping you buy better.

female narrator: the mattress price wars are on the mattress price wars are on at sleep train. we challenged the manufacturers to offer even lower prices. now it's posturepedic versus beautyrest with big savings of up to $400 off. serta icomfort and tempur-pedic go head-to-head with three years' interest-free financing. plus, free same-day delivery, set-up, and removal of your old set. when brands compete, you save. mattress price wars are on now at sleep train.

♪ your ticket to a better night's sleep ♪ so we had a statement actually yesterday from john mccain and lindsey graham and it actually had just been over in egypt. the statement said we urge the obama administration to suspend u.s. assistance to egypt and make clear to the current leadership of the country what steps we believe are necessary to halt egypt's decent into civil conflict and ultimately to restore our assistance relationship, which has historically served u.s. national security interests." comes out to 19% of the total aid that egypt receives from countries around the world. it sounds like a lot of money to us. but are we overstating what

leverage we really have? >> we're distracted by the wrong element of leverage. it's not financial leverage that matters. that's a symbolic move in my view. we suspended military exercises and the money we should have suspended the day morsi was deposed. we know everybody in egypt's command staff and all gone through the national defense university and exchange programs and joint programs and a very deep, human connection between the u.s. military and intelligence services on our side and on the egyptian side. we should be using every element of those human relationships to both communicate how far they've gone over the line and, in my view, if we were taking a strategy on how to get out of this, i don't see a reconciliation that includes the general. if someone has to be blamed for the horrors that have been unleashed in this last week and you have to find factions within the egyptian military, it's going it be very hard, but there are sensible people inside egypt

and sensible people inside the military who need to differentiate between who led them down this course and who not. that is the only conceivable way we'll get out of there. we spent too much time talking about the aid that should be suspended. the issue is the deep, human relationships. >> at the same time, steve, the fact of the matter is the egyptian military sent us packing and they sent john mccain and lindsey graham packing home and they didn't want us involved and it also, despite the fact that the military has all these ties to the united states, the vast majority of the egyptian public supports what the military has done, although they don't probably support what what they're seeing on the streets. let's be real here. between the secularests who said the united states does not support them against the muslim brotherhood. remember, hillary clinton went to tahrir square and was, in effect, almost railroded out of tahrir square by those secialists. there is a resentment against the united states throughout all

aspects, every aspect of egyptian society right now. >> the reason there is this rise in anti-american society and very clear also in the streets because america for now, 2 1/2 years, quite frankly, has been teetering and waffling when it comes to its policy in egypt and this has been very transparent. if you look at how they reacted. you know, we're talking about military aid and should it be suspended? what happened? the american government quite frankly over the last several decades made the egyptian military not just because they go to america to train and through this biannual training exercise that was based in camp david. but obama, essentially, in his response canceled the play date. he canceled the training play date and he said i'm going to ask my staff to reassess what's happening in egypt. we don't need the obama administration to reassess what's happening in egypt. we need a reaction that is clear. egypt is indifferent to america.

>> it seems so from this "washington post" story this morning that says reconciliation was near, you know, two weeks ago and you had the military leaders apparently being the ones that said, no, we're not going to go forward. we've dwaun gone as far as we c. >> they were not sincere. >> do they believe they can now rule egypt without elections, period. elections can be a thing of the past? >> they will create elections that are a facade. >> the old mubarak elections. >> a facade and they will create a camouflage over the fact that they're controlling all the leverage of society and they control most of the economy and they will protect their equities and egypt will continued to be a failed place for aspiring young people, men and women who want a different egypt. they will block all of that. >> we look at the '80s and '90s before social media and we talk about revolutions in social media and is it possible for the military to rule egypt the way mubarak did a generation ago in the year 2013 and beyond?

>> these revolutions about the relationship between citizen and state everywhere and being completely broken. and part of the reason that the brotherhood failed isn't just because they did as a bad job as morsi did a bad job as president. they just took power and they just took charge of the leverage of power. never in terms of governed and governorers. the military still able to try civilians and all the things people were protesting fundamentally against egypt, still there. with regard to the united states, it is also kind of easy to blow off the united states because we're deeply unpopular, but part of that unpopularity is because our relationship remains one with an arab ougautocrat. her relationship was with morsi, particularly, and not trying to make a relationship with the egyptian people. the cairo speech 2003 by

president obama was so popular because it was telling arab citizens i as the president of the united states see you as citizens and as people and we want to builds a relationship with people. then our policy didn't address any of those issues. >> all right, ahmed wants to get in here and we'll keep this going one more segment and get in right after this. mayo? corn dogs? you are so outta here! aah! 'cause i'm re-workin' the menu, keeping her healthy and you on your toes. [ female announcer ] the complete balanced nutrition of great-tasting ensure. 24 vitamins and minerals, antioxidants, and 9 grams of protein. i see you, cupcake! uh-oh! [ bottle ] the number one doctor recommended brand. ensure®. nutrition in charge™.

ahmed, you were about to say. >> at the end of the day, this is about dignity. we have to look at this as a macroperspective. you have saudi arabia, you have kuwait, you have the eau and all the gulf countries pledging aid to egypt. even if the u.s., which we're discussing here were to suspend this aid permanently, that doesn't mean that egypt can't use that money to buy weapons from all these companies that they're currently buying weapons from lockheed martin and so on and so forth. but i also wanted to make the point and agree with you that, you know, what's happening in

egypt today is political failure. i cannot emphasize that enough. it started back with the revolutionaries and now to the muzlicbrotherhood and interim government that is adopting the military's line that this is a fight against brutal terrorists. a brutal terrorist plot that these terrorists elements are foreign entities and that foreign people are bringing this into egypt. this is the most common refrain we heard time and time again from all these arab tyrants. almost like there is a manual. >> at the same time, we have to understand that mr. morsi who is still imprisoned or wherever he is being held, he set the stage for what essentially is the failure of the brotherhood. there was a significant anger and resentment among many of the brotherhood in egypt towards his rule because they felt he was blowing it. and the fact of the matter is, the fact of the matter is his failures is what drove 20

million egyptians into the streets. so, let's understand that, also, that if there is anyone who ultimately is to blame for this failure of where we are today, it is because of his autocracy and the failure to deal with the issues that egypt's government failed. >> i just want to point that that may very well be the case. i would call 14 million instead of 20 million. at the end of the day, mohammed morsi was, was struggling with other institutions. struggling with the legacy held over from mubarak and struggling with a complicated situation. i'm not going to defend him. but i am going to say if a guy is failing in that system, let him go to the polls and fail. for us to sit back and say it was right for the military to come in and kill 1,000 people and injure many, many more. i'm basically to say that -- because you robbed the loss that they. they would have learned.

what is so important for political islamic groups is to understand the burdens of shouldering powers and of the birders of negotiating across the aisle. but many is failing. but then for the tanks and ecweesand say he is failing and let the democratic system do. that is what has been robbed by this coup. it was a coup. >> if morsi deposed through an election instead of the military, would the response be, do you think the supporters would take that as a legitimate response and, okay, we're fine with it. or similar protestess. >> we're reacting to an american perspective where you have checks and balances built into the system so if a leader is going -- he put himself above the constitution last november. he did that, by the way, on american thanksgiving. i was in egypt the day that happened and he did it three days after the gaza cease-fire and not a single egyptian i talked to said, see, he played you guys for fools.

so the average egyptian felt there was no way, how do i depose this president? he is overstepping. i don't have a way to get rid of him. no checks and balances. >> failure of the system to have adequate checks and balances is what led to this, remember, the sequencing of where morsi wound up generating that anger and opposition was when he rejected the supreme court's decisions and basically said i'm no longer going to -- let me just finish. we are no longer going to abide by the system itself that is in place that elected me. that's what got a lot of, what i would call the silent majority of egyptians out into the streets as well as his failure to focus on the economic issues. now, that does not justify what the military did. i agree with steve on that. but let's also understand that the brotherhood is as much at fault here as anyone. >> the brotherhood is as much at fault as anyone. he put himself above the

interests of the egyptian people and above the interest of the national identity of egypt. he was putting political islam on the regional level above the interest of the egyptian people. you know, the constitutional decree. he put himself above the judiciary. and we can blame morsi and the brotherhood and the armed elements. but you, there is a system and power now that is in power because they ousted morsi. his supporters were being slaughtered are not part of the morsi camp or decisionmaking team. you can't slaughter that many citizens in this day in age and be taken seriously, especially when the interim cabinet is endorsing this cabinet and this position. can you imagine this. an interim cabinet that doesn't have a single representative from the muslim brotherhood saying, yes, we adopt this policy. >> the administration has not gone as far as it should have. we should stand up for our principles on this very issue. >> real quickly, i think it's very, very important that, one,

despite the fact that we need to punish the military in my view, we have to realize we can't abandon egypt. egypt is too important and like china for us in the middle east. the second thing, such a nightmare inside egypt that we need to be prepared for this. like morsi was failing, the military is going to fail and what happens when that happens. governments try to distract by moving outside. israel is our key relationship in the region and i suspect that once we get past this dust, they will begin trying to distract and rally egyptian citizens with other issues that are outside their territories and that's very scary to us. >> my thanks to mark ginsburg, steve clemens of atlantic magazine and rebucka. government shutdown is nothing compared with the newest threat gaining steam on the right. coming up. alert.

the beach on your tv is much closer than it appears. dive into labor day with up to 50% off hotels at travelocity. what are you guys doing? having some fiber! with new phillips' fiber good gummies. they're fruity delicious! just two gummies have 4 grams of fiber! to help support regularity! i want some... [ woman ] hop on over! [ marge ] fiber the fun way, from phillips'.

bjorn earns unlimited rewards for his small business. take these bags to room 12 please. [ garth ] bjorn's small business earns double miles on every purchase every day. produce delivery. [ bjorn ] just put it on my spark card. [ garth ] why settle for less? ahh, oh! [ garth ] great businesses deserve unlimited rewards. here's your wake up call. [ male announcer ] get the spark business card from capital one and earn unlimited rewards. choose double miles or 2% cash back on every purchase every day. what's in your wallet? [ crows ] now where's the snooze button?

tea party activists are demanding americans fight obama care by shutting down the government and john mccain was their latest target this week. >> i think if obama care is such a disaster, than you guys should be willing to defund it and get rid of it. >> that was far from the only time that mccain was put on the spot in his town hall. we will have video you haven't seen of some more questions that made him squirm and provoke some interesting answers, coming up. y helps defend against these digestive issues... with three strains of good bacteria. [ phillips' lady ] live the regular life. phillips'.

because all these whole grains aren't healthy unless you actually eat them ♪ multigrain cheerios. also available in delicious peanut butter. healthy never tasted so sweet. there are some signs that republicans may be backing away from threats to shut down the federal government in order to defund president obama's health care law and also signs they might be moving in a more dangerous direction, instead. senate minority leader mitch mcconnell admitted in kentucky on tuesday a government shut down would not achieve what conservatives want. >> a bill that would shut down the government wouldn't shut down obama care.

most of it is permanent law and not affected by that. >> when mcconnell's office was asked if he is against actually going through with the shut down his answer was, well, he's not taking sides on that question. same day robert costa reported on what could be the next major confrontation in a washington. the house gop will probably avoid using shut down as leverage and instead use the debt limit and sequester fights for legislative trades. negotiations over increasing the debt limit have frequently been used to ring concessions out of the administration and there may be movement in that direction. delay obama care in exchange for an increase debt limit. to summarize, party leaders have been trying to coax the tea party crowd out of staging a shut down fight because too politically risky and now the tea party crowd is talking up forcing a debt ceiling fight, instead, which would be even more risky. i would like to bring in crystal ball, my former co-host on msnbc

"the cycle" rick wilson republican media strategist and contributor to online forum ricochet.com. sam seeder host of majority report and a political reporter for "washington post." and i'll start with you because i've wildly been going back and forth for a few weeks now. noeme momentum on a republican side to do a shut down. no, wait, the latest news, this is yesterday. the senate conservative fund which jim dement in the senate started and bank rolls primary challenge against incumbents. they said if mitch mcconnell doesn't sign on with this, we're going to start running ads against him in kentucky. got me thinking maybe the threat is coming back. where do you think it stands? >> that is possible and you have a very vocal caucus in the senate. not many people, but very vocal. you're talking about ted cruz and mitch mcconnell very afraid of a primary challenge in any appearance that he's not align

with rand paul in this more vocal, more conservative parts of his party. but i think you ultimately don't have the votes in the senate. you don't have the votes, i don't think, in the house for that. and i think at some point you're going to see the business community come to bear on this and the way they did with the fiscal cliff because it would just be calamitous for them to sort of play footsie with the idea of not extending the debt ceiling limit. but i think from boehner, you've seen him try to go and cool the temperature in the room with the sort of no caucus and he had some success with that. but, again, i think you make the point that now this might even be worse with, you know, negotiating the debt ceiling. >> rick, maybe you can be the translator and maybe tell me if i'm on the right track here. okay, republican leadership, by and large, does not want to have this shut down. okay. they have to talk the true believers out of it.

maybe they're sort of dangling the prospect, hey, if you put the fight off on the shut down, we'll get them on the debt ceiling a month later. they're buying themselves a month's time here. >> i think it is two-fold. a delaying tactic because the leadership, the leadership's issue with this is very simple. they don't philosophically have, there is no daylight on killing obama care. they want to shut down obama care, however, they are worried that just shutting down the government is a one-day tactic and then you have to fight it out for months on end and that gives barack obama, drags barack obama personally into the fight and it's not as steady a ground to fight on. they would much rather do something with the debt ceiling and sequester because barack obama lost a huge amount of credibility by saying dogs and cats will live in sin together if there is a sequester and everyone will be killed if there is a sequester. the sequester didn't affect normal people. it's had some -- >> it's one of those things, i

feel people feel it and they don't know they're feeling it. >> the apocalypticapocalypt ic used. >> here's my follow up then as a republican here. what is it that republicans realistically want out of any of these sort of? >> shredded and destroyed. >> i said the key word here is realistic. what do you guys want? what are you trying to get out of this? >> we want to make sure all the stresses that are already hurting obama care. look, barack obama keeps signaling weaknesses by delaying and deferring and intralegally changing how we're going to deploy obama care. as he signals those weaknesses, we knows this is a rickety contraption and it will fall apart if enough pressure gets put on that. >> if you believe that, which i believe that you do. if you believe obama care is so terrible and everything is going

to fall apart and doctors are going to leave the profession and seniors executed on death pen penals. why not let it be implemented and fail and then you could repeal it? the actual fear is that when it really is implemented and enough americans are going to say, this helps me. this helps my family. that they are never going to -- that's the real republican fear. >> i mean, look, the reality is that obama care is not going to be defunded and it's not rickety and an incredibly, as much as i have issues with it from the left, frankly, it is a program that is already bringing benefits to the american public. the republicans are very nervous about that. what's going on here has more to do with mitch mcconnell worried about a primary challenge in kentucky. punting is always what you do when you're in a position of weakness. if they can make this and they can all just leap frog the issue of shutting down the government on the budget, then they only have one battle to fight and the battle they're fighting is

internal. the leadership is not in the same position. they were last go around. the business community, mitch mcconnell all of a sudden is not -- now we're talking about his own personal future here. he can't be as responsive. he's fighting a fight on the right and taking over. >> now, speaking, that's a gret segue i want to make sure to get this in because this is crazy to me. heritage action. you know, this is jim demint left the center to run heritage and they put out what they claim was a poll this week encouraging republicans, it's okay, go ahead, shut down the government. they polled districts which on average say voted for mitt romney with 60% of the vote and this is the poll question that they ask voters. this was about shutting down the government. this is how they framed it. in order to get president obama to agree to have a "time out" on implementing the health care law and full effects, would approve or nonapprove of a temporary

slow down in nonessential federal government operations, which still left all essential government services running? nobody is going to interpret it as this. do republicans actually believe this? >> listen, i'm going to take a contrarrian view from my colleagues. that poll, i would have run for the hills when i saw the wording on that question alone. that is not how you assess the impact of this and the ten districts, i'm sorry. there are some other instruments that are out there that say it's not the apocalypse, but it also has -- there's a certain amount of risk in it and as a consultant, you know, accuse of being a squishy, as a consultant who wants my guys to win. i don't want to go on a self-serving -- >> you're talking about being a squishy rhino if you actually approach this looking for real data. >> reductions about these things -- >> that poll was written in such a way to get that result. but you have to remember, the heritage foundation is writing

that poll in that way to get that result. this is where the battle lines are. >> it seems like -- i remember 1995 and 1996 when there was a shut down and newt gingrich and the republican congress paid a price. i hear ted cruz talk and newt gingrich talk about it now and they didn't see what i saw. >> but i think many republicans did see what you saw and they john boehner saw it and lots of senate republicans and john mccain saw it. he is very much counseling against a government shut down. the conservative intel, folks like charles, they don't want to see this. i think republicans play right now is death by 1,000 cuts to obama care. i mean, they feel like they can peel away maybe even some house democrats who aren't necessarily happy with some of the things that we see from obama care. some even senate democrats. you see them talking about it. the reality is, though, right, obama care is already here. i mean, that's what republicans are sort of, oh, the british are

coming. the british are sort of already here in terms of obama care. for 85% of us, this is the reality that we're living. >> the british system. the british are here. anyway, are republicans just shouting at the wind. one of their leading presidential candidates thinks so. that's next. [ male announcer ] if you have yet to master the quiet sneeze... [ sneezes ] [ male announcer ] you may be an allergy muddler. try zyrtec®. it gives you powerful allergy relief. and zyrtec® is different than claritin® because zyrtec® starts working at hour 1 on the first day you take it. claritin® doesn't start working until hour 3. [ sneezes ] [ male announcer ] zyrtec®. love the air. [ female announcer ] this week only, save up to $15 on zyrtec® products. see sunday's newspaper. on zyrtec® products. cashback concierge, here. what is a cashback concierge? well there's lots of ways you can get cash back. i'm here to help you get the most out of your cash rewards. it's personalized, and it's free. i want that. we have a concierge! at discover, we treat you like you'd treat you. get the it card with cashback concierge.

getting the right nutrition during your busy day can be a challenge. take control of your nutrition with each delicious bar provides boost bars are perfect with a meal or as a nutritious snack. plus, they are available in chocolate and peanut butter chocolate flavors. a great-tasting way to get the nutrition you need. brand power. helping you buy better.

it has been five months since the national republican committee released its autopsy report. a self-critical document that faulted the party's failure to appeal to latinos and s and in this week that was the first formal gathering of the party since that autopsy. ban all primary debates from nbc and cnn, which also means that debates on telemundo which like this network is owned by nbc is banned, as well.

the autopsy specifically recommended that republicans champion and embrace appears to be dying a slow death at the hands of house conservatives. the story in politico on friday said, "it's almost impossible to find an establishment republican in d.c. that is not morose about the 2013 that has been and is about to be." the rnc holding the meetings up in boston and probably a good time to take stock of has anything changed for the republican party since the election, since the autopsy? krystal, you're a democrat, do you look at the republican party say, they got their act together? >> not so much. i think they've slipped back into a lot of old habits and the politico piece points out and one of the most critical things on the voting rights act, you know, immediately states when forward with restrictive voter i.d. and laws that frankly would have been overturned over the previous voting rights act. i think that has further

alienated them from minorities. what i would say and what is interesting about the rnc and happening this week and the way they're floating like rush limbaugh as a debate moderator. they need to be focused on reforming their primary process so they can have an appeal to a general electorate. i think chris christie is a strong candidate and if he can make it through a republican primary, he would be someone to be wreck reckon with in a gener election. but the way that they're structuring the primary process and the way they're approaching it and viewing it already, someone like him couldn't survive and they'll end up with someone on the far right who had all the same problems. >> isn't there a bigger issue. the whole question of the debates and banning debates from cnn and nbc. there's a whole question, too, about whether that will mean anything because state parties can hold debates and they don't need the influence around them. but that aside, it just seems like an embrace here of a bubble almost. and it is a party sort of saying we want to have our own media

environment. and we don't care what's happening in the outside. we're okay with winning the house because the way the country sort of caught up, they can win the house. but they're almost saying let's live where we win the house and not the white house. >> a position on this whole debate thing. i think it's a smart thing for them to do because rush limbaugh is not going to moderate that debate. they're going to get some hack, they' they'll get some hack to moderate that debate. but stay away from questions that will show what a freak show the republican nominees are because they have to play to the base. the issue is the republican base here. and the rnc is taking a step, i think, to inoculate these debates from playing to that base. >> but wasn't -- let me just -- but wasn't playing to the base what got these debates such attention in 2011 that caused all those moments. >> exactly. they don't want that to happen

and they will ask the questions of these primary candidates and there are questions that are not going to get them in trouble. look, you can have a republican base complaining. that debate they didn't ask the questions i wanted to hear. but at the end of the day, better than them answering those questions. >> i see the republican base at the town hall meeting saying shut down the government over obama care. that will get them in trouble. rick, go ahead. >> here's the thing, the experience of 2012, in particular, when you had candy controly and martha raddatz putting their thumb on the scale so hard on these debates, it was absurd. george stephanopoulos driving and driving and asking, that no candidate ever proposed to ban birth control and stephanopoulos asking which one of you wants to ban contraception? it became a clown show -- >> are you talking about the primary or general election here? >> all. >> quite a good performance in the general election. >> here's the thing, in the

primary debates, why are you going to invite people. you take the serpent into your house. why are you going to invite people who deliberately go outside. >> self-inflicted moment. >> but they occurred. >> that famous question or infamous question where the republican candidates were all asked, 10-1 deal. brett there on fox news and weakened that moment. that came back. >> that's a set -- >> that's not so much an issue for them. i mean, the fact is, it is a legitimate question to ask republican nominee about birth control because it is out there. >> not one candidate in that race proposed a banned birth control. not one. >> would it be a problem for the democratic nominees to ask that question? the fact is it a legitimate question to ask. >> democratic primary the republicans are very afraid of answering that question and they know that a sean hannity will not ask that question. and that's what -- >> sean hannity, sean hannity

would ask questions. i do think sean hannity would ask questions to figure out who's on his team in terms of being from the far right or whatever. >> okay. we have just set the new uprecord for cross talking segments. progressives across the country are setting their sights on one candidate in one election that is a month away and we're going to talk to him next. i'd be sitting there with my friends who had their verizon phones and i'd be sitting there like "mine's still loading!" i couldn't get email. i couldn't stream movies. i couldn't upload any of our music. that's when i decided to switch. now that i'm on verizon, everything moves fast. with verizon, i have that reliability. i'm completely happy with verizon. verizon's 4g lte is the most reliable and in more places than any other 4g network. period. that's powerful. verizon. get the nokia lumia 928 for free.

it's delicious. so now we've turned her toffee into a business. my goal was to take an idea

and make it happen. i'm janet long and i formed my toffee company through legalzoom. i never really thought i would make money doing what i love. [ robert ] we created legalzoom to help people start their business and launch their dreams. go to legalzoom.com today and make your business dream a reality. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side. the democratic race for mayor of new york has been about as topsy-turvy as last year's gop presidential primaries and there may now be a new frontrunner. the city's public advocate and the newest poll has him tied at 24%. the city council speaker christine quinn entered the race as the favorite. comes after another poll earlier in the week, this one from quinnipiac. the most any candidate has gone

in that poll since early april. blasio surge came as he collected from prominent voices former vermont governor howard dean. it has, though, however, been 24 years since new york city actually elected a democratic mayor. here to talk about blasio's chances in the primary and maybe in the general election is bill blasio. thank you for joining us. >> totally objective. >> so, the big issue this week, beside we have the polls we put out there. we had the ruling from judge earlier this week that did not put an end to stop and frisk, but said the racial profiling aspect of it needs to be addressed and the monitor needs to be implemented to deal with that. my question to you is, what, how does that work practically? because you have been a critic of stop and frisk and you said you want to get beyond an end of the stop and frisk era.

you have not said you wanted to end stop and frisk. realistically speaking what will it look like on the streets to have stop and frisk and not to have the racial profiling aspect of it? what will that look like every day? >> it will look like appropriate policing and constitutional mindful policing. i'm the only democratic candidate who said we need a package of reforms to achieve change at nypd. these are long-standing problems and what i called for of course a new police commissioner who is ready to bring new police back together and make these changes sincerely. we need an independent, i emphasize independent inspector general. not one named by the police commissioner to oversee the process. and we need a racial profiling ban as part of the laws of new york city. so, what the judge did, i think, was right and i as mayor would not appeal that decision, by the way. i think the judge, his decision was fair and balanced and needs to be carried through. the judge took some short-term steps including a federal monster.

but the big change has to be a new commissioner, plus those additional pieces of legislation to reset the police department for the future and then think about this, stops only when they are constitutionally appropriate. only when, for example, a suspect description and people fit that description. they should be stopped as part of normal policing. but on top of that an nypd that focuses on community relations, that focuses on developing communication with the community and getting leads from community residents on where criminals and weapons are, that plus the technology we have, plus the sheer man power, 35,000 plus officers, that will keep us safe but in a way that actually respects people's rights. >> we mentioned it has been 24 years since new york city elected, gorbachev was still in power when that happened. there have been five consecutive democrats in that time who have run and they have all been defeated by nondemocrats. republicans or nondemocrats in 2009 with michael bloomberg.

what is it that voters in this city, this very democratic city when for five straight elections given a choice between a democrat or nondemocrat. what is it they have been rejecting? >> i lived through it. i was there the night when the mayor was first elected and i was on his campaign team and i was on his campaign team when i lost in 1993. i do think in 1993 a combination of some really complicated, unforeseen events like what happened in crown heights and some missteps by the administration and, bluntly, a racial negative appeal by rudy giuliani. in the new york city of 1993, that was just enough to get giuliani the votes he needed. this is not the new york city of 1993 any more. a much more progressive and united city. >> also a city where the crime rate dropped dramatically from 1993 and in that time i read, my reading of the results from 1993

on has been that people had complicated feelings about giuliani and complicated feelings of bloomberg but overall they say the city is a lot safer and better to live in than 20 years ago. we talk about this question of stop and frisk. i recognize that in the democratic primary, if you poll this question, very unpopular in your position and very popular. a "new york times" poll that came out and asked about stop and frisk among general election voters. 50% to 47% favor, i look at you and look at your message on this and talk about you represent a clean break from bloomberg and i wonder if those same voters who have been so happy with the decline in crime and continue to elect nondemocrats for 20 years in a general election will look at that and say, i don't want to turn the city back to what we had 20 years ago. >> first of all, i would love to have that particular challenge of explaining to the voters and the general election why we can make this work. i'd be honored to be the democratic nominee and do that. here's what i think first, a

great tradition across several mayors and a number of police commissioners and driving crime down and i think we can very clearly show to people how we can continue that tradition while fixing the relationship between police and community in the process. here's the thing that i think a lot of people understand. when police and community have a respectful communicative relationship, that is the best pathway towards long-term safety and security. the second point is, this election is going to be about economics. not about public safety. public safety matters to everyone, of course. what people are really going through the tale of two cities. economic insecurity and they want to hear what the city government will do to move forward. >> i have to ask you about that tale of two cities. democrats who failed and that was the slogan where he talked about two new yorks. this theme has come up over and over again. why does it work now? >> use that slogan in 2001 and won the democratic primary. of course, that was in the context of the post-9/11

dynamics. >> he ran in 2005 and was blown out. >> he won the democratic primary, but, again, bloomberg was an incumbent. this is an open seat. it is good to look at the history but the history doesn't tell us because what happened since the last four, five years of economic crisis the huge pressure in the city and the huge increase in housing costs. this is a different city and one of the things, all of us who have been in public life for a while, natural to fight yesterday's war. but let's talk about today in new york city where the issue is economic. where people are struggling to get by. a stunning new york city government report two months ago, 46% of new yorkers at or near the poverty level at 150% of the poverty level or below, 46%. you never would have imagined that ten years ago. that's new york city today and that's what has to be addressed in this mayoral election. that is equally true in the general election. >> bill, i wanted to ask you a personal question. by the way, i appreciate that your focus on stop and frisk is on stop and frisk sort of a symptom of a problem, not as the

root cause and looking at the complete problem. but, you know, i ran for congress in 2010 and i made the decision to include my daughter who was very young at the time in my campaign and in my ads and your son daunte was featured very prominently in your ad. him and his fabulous hair. what was your decision making process around including him in such a prominent role and what the response has been to that ad? >> first, in my family, i am the third most famous person after daunte and daunte's hair. i come in a distant third. look, i think the important thing to me was portraying who i am. and my family and i have been in this together. you know, my wife and i met in city hall working for the mayor. we have been devoted to a life of public service. we share values. we always had a sense of our family as part of a community. and then when i started running for office, local school boards an unpaid position. the first time i was campaigning

i was with my daughter and she was 4 and we were outside her school giving out leaflets. this is very natural for us. the family as an idea is powerful in new york city today where we had a mayor who has not been responsive to the needs of parents, for example, public school parents. i happen to be a public school parent. that's a very important part of what i'm trying to say. it is important to have a mayor to listen to public school parents. i think this was very natural for us and the response has been warm and positive and i think people like seeing a loving family together. >> i want to get, rick, i want to make sure to get you in here because there are republicans in new york city and rick actually has some history in new york politics, he worked for rudy giuliani. if you can speak to this and get bill to respond. what i hear when i talk to people in new york city, they have two candidates running a primary, but they have a candidate potentially electable and they say bill de blasio is the candidate they want to run against. is that correct and why?

>> i think, bill, with all due respect, you are a guy. you've been in the political atmosphere of new york. you just said it yourself. this is what you do. this is your life. and the question really is, in my head, the last two mayors in the 24 years were largely a product not of some racial appeal, but because david dinkins ran the government in that balkanized democratic party way. all these democratic factions that were divvying up the unions and divvying up the city among themselves and basically the quality of life for everybody else went down hill. the two mayors since then that have been very successful with new yorkers have been because they took quality of life as the first step. so, when you're a mayor or if you're mayor or nominee, the question really for most new yorkers isn't are you progressive enough for me? it's are you managerially competent to handle the most complex city government in the world and are you managerially strong enough to resist all the

forces inside your own party that will drive you after suppress ed pent up demand and all the people that never got the goodies of power are going to be pushing you in directions that aren't responsible. i mean, the teacher's union will push you so hard that, you know, you listen to parents but at the end of the day, if those people, if you owe those people, they are going to be pushing you in a direction that is only serving their needs. >> if you are a democratic nominee, that is what you're hearing from your republican opponent and how are you going to handle that? >> i think those days are over. i think we're in a different world now. first of all, fiscal responsibility is a given to me and the whole generation of people came up after the fiscal crisis of the '70s. it's not negotiable. we have to balance our budget by june 30th every year, period. i think on top of that, i think you make a valid point. the politics of thinking through one organization or one constituency narrowly is the politics of the past. we need a government to actually

respond to the needs of the people in general and that's why my message. when i talk about a tale of two cities, it's acknowledging what people on the ground are going through. >> you tell they will have to take a hair cut on pension and benefits? >> i'm talking what people are going through on the ground. trying to help address their problem which is right now not happening with michael bloomberg. i think it's not healthy to put it through the prism of what happened 20 years ago we're an entirely different reality today and i live in today's reality. >> you should pray people don't remember 25 years ago because that era, most people around this table weren't politically active then. we're the old guys here. >> i'm offended. >> that is going to be, that is going to be -- >> this is a serious issue that people have forgotten that chaos and the filth and the crime and the disruption and that the quality of life had diminished in new york city. >> that is -- >> no, look. the early, the late '80s and

early '90s were not a pretty time for new york. this was a city that had massive structural problems that were because the government was run by, by a guy -- >> this will be the republican message this fall. that's what it was and that's what you don't want to go back to. >> you want amnesia. >> fear mongering is just as good. that's a compliment. the fact is the challenge facing new york city today is economic. 46% of the people by the city's own statistics struggling to get by. we have not passed expansive living wage legislation. we have passed a paid sick days bill that only goes part of the way. we are not using the resources of government to help people get employment and get training for the jobs that actually exist in this economy. that's what this election is going to be about. >> i want to give you credit for one thing before you leave. originally from cambridge, massachusetts, you still admit that you're a red sox fan. i think that takes courage and i wish more politicians.

i can't stand politicians who move somewhere and pretend they cheer for the local team their whole life. i want to thank mayoral candidate bill de blasio for joining us. >> he's turning it into a positive. >> a lot of buzz about hillary clinton's presidential bid but a crack in a different glass ceiling may be months away. that's next. the middle of this special moment and i need to run off to the bathroom. ♪ i'm fed up with always having to put my bladder's needs ahead of my daughter. ♪ so today, i'm finally talking to my doctor about overactive bladder symptoms. [ female announcer ] know that gotta go feeling? ask your doctor about prescription toviaz. one toviaz pill a day significantly reduces sudden urges and accidents, for 24 hours. if you have certain stomach problems or glaucoma, or can not empty your bladder, you should not take toviaz. get emergency medical help right away

if your face, lips, throat or tongue swells. toviaz can cause blurred vision, dizziness, drowsiness and decreased sweating. do not drive, operate machinery or do unsafe tasks until you know how toviaz affects you. the most common side effects are dry mouth and constipation. talk to your doctor about toviaz. the most common side effects are dry mouth and constipation. especially today, as people are looking for more low, and no calorie options. that's why on vending machines, we're making it easy for people to know how many calories are in their favorite beverages, before they choose. and we're offering more low calorie options, including over 70 in our innovative coca-cola free-style dispensers. working with our beverage industry and restaurant partners, we're helping provide choices that make sense for everyone. because when people come together, good things happen. and you know what i walked out with? [ slurps ] [ dad ] a new passat. [ dad ] 0% apr. 60 months. done and done. [ dad ] in that driveway,

is a german-engineered piece of awesome. that i got for 0% apr. good one, dad. thank you, dalton. [ male announcer ] it's the car you won't stop talking about. ever. hurry in to the volkswagen best. thing. ever. event. and get 0% apr for 60 months, now until september 3rd. that's the power of german engineering.

february 25th, 1870 mississippi became the first ever african-american sworn into the united states senate. revels was elected by the mississippi state legislative the reconstruction era and was only given his seat after a heated debate among senators. "new york times" story from that day. the colored member admitted to his seat in the senate. here's how the "times" described

the scene in the senate chamber that day. the ceremony was short. his demeanor was as dignified as to be expected under the circumstances. the abuse poured upon him and during his race over the last two days may have shaken the nerves of anyone. the vast throng in the gallery showed no signs of feeling one way or the other and left very quietly. now, contrast that with the scene in newark this past tuesday night when cory booker came closer to joining the senate with a blowout in the democratic primary. >> it is such an honor to be your nominee, to be your democratic nominee for the united states senate. thank you! >> here's the thing. between swearing in and cory booker's campaign it's been 143 years. in that time, the grand total of african-americans to serve in the united states senate is

eight. and of those eight, only three have actually been elected by popular vote. ed brook from massachusetts, carol moseley braun from illinois and someone named barack obama. the others were appointed and served briefly. when it comes to governors, the same story. just four african-americans ever have served as state governors and only two of them, doug wilder from virginia and deval patrick were popularly elected. the other glass ceiling in politics. barack obama broke a massive barrier when he won the presidency and dozens of african-americans currently serve in the house of representatives, but when it comes to statewide office, the feeder system for national office. cory booker's story remains the exception. want to try to understand why this is and what could change it. joined now by charlie rangel, a 42-year veteran of the house and a founding member of the congressional black caucus. congressman, thanks for joining us. i wonder when we talk about the history and the statistics first black senator, 143 years ago and in all that time, only three

african-americans have been elected to the senate and only two as governor. what do you think the reason for that is? >> america would like to believe that the question of color is not an issue and that racism is dead. and i, i think there's other ways besides talk about it on your program. we are going to have to do to have people recognize. until we recognize the depth of racism in this country, we have to have the problem. you have to look at it and you have to deal with it. but, as becoming a senator, white or black, it is so difficult. with you throw that race into it, you can almost make it impossible. first of all, you have to wait 6, 12, 18 years for a vacancy. and if the spouse happens to be attractive and there's an early death or something, the way things are changing and because of the cost of being elected, spouses somehow can get

appointed. once you're appointed, that's 50% of the problem, getting re-elected. the other thing is the costs of running. it is now pretty well accepted that you have to start off being a millionaire. no matter how much of trying to avoid the impetment of color and becoming a millionaire, i think statistics would show that black folks have just not been able to get the -- there are reasons but i want you to ask the next question. >> one reason i ask, your career maybe could speak to this a little bit because you came to the house in 1970. at that time, there was sort of a wave, relatively speaking, and brought the total number in the house to 12. now, it's like four times that amount of african-americans who serve in the house. but in terms of getting from the house to the senate, it's been, sort of been a ceiling there and one of the reasons that's suggested is the good thing that the voting acts did was it created opportunities on the map

that were not there before for nonwhite candidates but put them in districts that were a lot poorer and therefore to serve the interest of your district, almost necessarily you were going to rack up a much more liberal voting record and have constituents that didn't have a lot of money to donate to campaigns and that create impediments that take black members of the house and make it more difficult for them to run statewide than anybody from the wealthier suburbs would. >> even if we didn't have that complicated political problem that you described, the difference between the house and the senate is totally unbelievable. in terms of the structure in which you have to win a primary. in this country and so many americans are totally unaware of it, they enjoy the independence and they'll tell the world they are cleaner because they're not attached to any established party. but denied the opportunity to

vote in a primary and many times the person running in a primary is guaranteed the election. and, so, the voting rights act allowed a lot of people to express themselves on political subdivisions so that they can get to the congress. it didn't do it a darn thing in making it possible to get to the senate. entirely different formula that you have to have. you need more money now than you did long before the voting rights act to even be considered and booker's really exciting triumph that we have here is that he was a gigantic fish in the little pond of newark. >> that's right. he built a base. >> that's right. >> a much bigger base outside the city of newark than inside. wonder from your own experience in politics, looking back at your career. did you think i want to run for governor of new york, i'd like to be a senator.

did you have a moment where you thought about it and said for reason x, i'm not going to or come to the house and decide, no, i'm going to climb the ladder in the house and get a chairmanship there. >> you would not believe that nobody has ever asked me that question. >> that is the problem. >> that is one of the problems but when the issue did come up, i have never said no. and the reason i haven't said no is because politicians like to be considered for higher office. but, quite frankly, being a judge or being a mayor of this senate has never been on my agenda because i enjoy being a big fish in a smaller pond. i really do. and the fact is that you have more opportunity to express yourself when your constituents are solidly behind you than if you have to deal with a diverse constituency. if you're talking about a state

of new york, boy. you have the north, the south. you got it in new york state. and that would mean that i would have to short change my total belief in order to accommodate what other people would be entitled to and that is for me to hear their different position and to support it in part, if i could. and i think what shattered, i haven't seen thought about this. but what really shattered my idea of running statewide is when i was campaigning for hugh carrie who was my buddy in the house of representatives and i was very close to him. the campaign and i went upstate and i was in farm areas and i spent overnight and one morning one of the democratic leaders said, you know, you're a fine young man and you are to think about running for statewide office or president. he said, i watch "jeffersons" every night and i never saw like you personally and you can come to my house any time you want.

we need more of your kind. >> wow. >> and i never look for trouble, but whenever i got outside the city of new york, i say, watch this. and people are honest. they love you, but they don't want you that close to them and they prefer being with what they call their own. a black person has to overcome a lot in this country. >> what do you make of the success cory booker. there was a joke in new jersey when he ran for mayor of newark in 2002. he ran against sharp james and cory booker lost that election and he lost newark but won the entire state of new jersey because there was no politician in the state of new jersey who was more popular in cory booker everywhere but newark. what do you make of how he's been able to build such popularity outside of the city that he actually represents? >> television. next question. >> television.

>> i wanted to ask you, you said you've never gotten asked that question. i wonder if there is a problem, also, within the democratic party. because i'm a native virginiaen and we have congressman bobby scott there who is an excellent representative, most senior member of congress from virginia. whenever a seat comes open in the senate, no one even thinks of him. no one even floats him as a contender. >> in virginia. >> in virginia. i wonder if there is also a problem within the democratic party where they have sort of a legacy thinking of no african-american could get elected to the senate and that that is part of the issue in addition to the problems that you've outlined. >> everybody, no matter who the candidate want to be would be, party officials will determine their ability to win. that's what you hear. the governor of new jersey is saying is pretty rough to hear it, but it's true. you have to win if you truly believe that you can govern. you have to win first. if you believe that being a

woman, being an immigrant or being black is a strike against you, so be it. because there are other things that like scott, bobby scott has, that would give him advantage or white guy or white gal. but the formula is based on who you think could win. we could do it around this table and your sex is going to be a consideration, well, it's not me, but the census shows or polls are showing and then you're black and pretty and, you know, by the time you get finished, wthought we sat down with friends. >> how helpful, representative rangel, do you think obama has been symbolically or has he been helpful at all? >> there's no question with young kids. i could never tell the american story. you read your books and you work hard and you could become president of the united states.

i would say, do i have to really say that to this kid? and now i can say it. now i can see that being what it was, if you can find an unusual individual. when i talk about unusual, it is not just the color of his skin. he is a remarkable person. >> certainly. >> and to find that combination in the united states is difficult. but i tell you, what he and especially his wife has done in terms of the image and i'm moved by brown versus the united states with kenneth brown, did the psychological test with the black doll and white doll. it's still that way. i think, i know that obama has changed that. if you were to say which president do you like the best? the black kid is going to pick the darker doll and i think that's great. >> all right, as a good note to

end it on. i want to thank congressman charlie rangel for joining us. about cory booker and that new jersey senate race. we took a field trip out there this week involves a mall, game show and some washed up celebrities. we'll show you after this. oh, he's a fighter alright. since aflac is helping with his expenses while he can't work, he can focus on his recovery. he doesn't have to worry so much about his mortgage, groceries, or even gas bills. kick! kick... feel it! feel it! feel it! nice work! ♪ you got it! you got it! yes! aflac's gonna help take care of his expenses. and us...we're gonna get him back in fighting shape. ♪ [ male announcer ] see what's happening behind the scenes at aflac.com.

so, it was primary day in new jersey on tuesday and turnout was, well, not as awful as people had feared but still pretty low. not many people paid attention to the race, not that you can blame them because cory booker was 40 points ahead the whole time. not much of a race. to commemorate the primary, i took a trip to a shopping mall in edison, new jersey, and i asked shoppers to play a game, is this a new jersey senate candidate. take a look. >> today is the primary election. not gotten a lot of attention. we have eight pictures here. some of them are candidates and some are not. going to ask you each one, is it a candidate or not and then

bonus points if you can tell me who it is. >> bring it on. come on. >> this is going to be ugly. >> is this a new jersey senate candidate? >> he doesn't look familiar to me. >> i don't know his name but i've seen his commercial. >> i have no clue. >> could be, usually an elderly guy. sheila oliver. state assembly speaker. >> never heard of the name. >> candidate or not a xnt? >> yeah. >> she is a candidate? >> yeah. >> she is not. went platinum in the united states in 1975. >> let's go with yes. >> actually not, she's canadian pop icon ann murray. >> who do you think that is? >> ann murray. one more hit, could i have this dance for the rest of my life? >> is this a new jersey senate candidate? >> yes. >> i'm sorry, he is not a new jersey senate candidate. he is the star of "beethoven in

1 1992. >> had some kind of special skill. >> are you thinking of like -- are you thinking of that airbud. >> played basketball. "airbud 2 golden receiver." >> is this a new jersey senator? >> cory booker. >> who do you think that is? >> cory booker. >> he follows me on twitter. something about potholes in new jersey. >> you complained about a pothole. >> i tweeted about it and two days later he followed me. >> what do you think of cory booker? >> is this a new jersey senator? >> sheila oliver. cory booker. plum. >> that's right? you follow politics very closely. no, i just live in new jersey. >> we are still waiting on the final count of how many write-ins ann murray got. keep you posted on that. politicians put on the spot and not what you might think.

that's coming up. with a machine. what? customers didn't like it. so why do banks do it? hello? hello?! if your bank doesn't let you talk to a real person 24/7, you need an ally. hello? ally bank. your money needs an ally. (announcenergy cycle... natural cats. they were born to play. to eat. then rest. to fuel the metabolic cycle they were born to have, purina one created new healthy metabolism wet and dry. with purina one and the right activity, we're turning feeding into a true nature experience. join us at purinaone.com

it's a reality check. i had my reality check when i'd be sitting there with my friends who had their verizon phones and i'd be sitting there like "mine's still loading!" i couldn't get email. i couldn't stream movies. i couldn't upload any of our music. that's when i decided to switch. now that i'm on verizon, everything moves fast. with verizon, i have that reliability. i'm completely happy with verizon. verizon's 4g lte is the most reliable and in more places than any other 4g network. period. that's powerful. verizon. get the nokia lumia 928 for free.

they call august congress' summer recess but facing constituents armed with complaints and criticisms is not necessary a vacation for members of congress which helps to explain why as a "new york times" reporter congressmen and senators are pulling the plug on what has traditionally been an august recess staple. the town hall meeting. the set of unscripted questions and camera phones that have turned town hall into potentially career threatening events. opting for strictly controlled and boring phone conferences and e-mail correspondence. the town hall isn't dead yet so we decided to look closely at one that took place this week to show you what makes these things so scary for the average member of congress and what we will lose if town halls really do go extinct. john mccain who held an open meeting in tucson this week. we showed you a clip earlier of an animated conservative urging him to shut down the government over obama care.

that is the clip that made the news. we want to look at other exchanges that mccain probably didn't see coming either and provoke some interesting answers. here's one. >> i work at hospice and we were affected by sequestration. we are using $25,000 a month. what is going to happen october 1st. we have a government shut down, we lose all our funding and we have 300 patients that are dying in homes all over tucson. >> i do believe we're not going to shut down the government. so, what i think is going to happen is somehow we're going to keep you in business and sequestratino is not the answer. in full disclosure, i voted for it. dumbest vote i made while i've been in the congress. >> so, you know, we see a little bit of the old mccain there. hey, i voted for it, big mistake. but i guess what strikes me

about that, that question would force the average member of congress to be at a least a little bit human. here's somebody who has been directly affected by sequestratisequestrat sequestration and talking about what shut down of the government can do and here's john mccain saying, hey, i don't wunt to shut down the government. i want to help you. if that sounds basic, it seems a sad commentary of congress. a lot of congressmen not want to be caught on tape saying even anything like that. >> i think we have generally seen the decline of the town hall. obama and romney did not have many town halls because they can become youtube moments. john mccain the master of the town hall. when he ran he was like looking forward to the town halls. >> kind of didn't go that well. >> in those campaigns. but, again, i think people are afraid. you have people who show up at the town halls who are from the far wings of the party, whether it's the left or the right. and they are there, not even so

much, i think, for conversation often, but for confrontation. and that's something that i think elected officials don't want to see. i think it's a shame because this is what democracy is. they should be there. >> a lot of times not the people who are organically constituents and a lot of times they're organized by heritage action to just show up and give them a hard time. so, i can understand from these members of congress perspective that they don't want to be put in that position. i get that. something like that can go viral in an instant. but to your point of the other side of the coin of what we're seeing now, there is also a fear that increasingly they'll get push back from obama care from people who have loved ones whose lives could have been saved or would be saved with obama care. and how do you answer those questions? >> how do you tell somebody, we talked about this earlier in the show and you don't think sequestrat

sequestration is all we were warned about but vital social service agencies and groups that have lost funding because of this and people will start showing up at these meetings and telling their stories. >> here's one thing i believe very strongly. we live in a less mediated society than we used to live. accountability is a desirable characteristic, no matter what party a or ideology you are. i want republicans to go into these town hall meetings and i want them to get in and interact with their consit wnts, even if it's questions that they're throwing at them about obama care. even if it's sequester questions. i want them to go in there and show that they've got and pass the proverbial manhood test of listen to somebody who doesn't like you and yell at you and respond to them in kind and that interaction and accountability is a vital thing for these people. not only in fulfilling their constitutional duties to be a representative, but also in the political side, it helps them become a better politician. it helps them become a better advocate. republican or democrat.

>> let's not kid ourselves. the concern for congress people going back to their district is not a question from. the question is why are you going to defund obama care? that's what they're afraid of because they created this frankenstein in their base. by voting to defund obama care, 40, 67 times, however you measure it. they have created an expectation and now they have to tap those expectations down because they're running into a train wreck. this is part of the same concept. same thing mitch mcconnell is trying to punt down the road. he is facing this in his own personal election in the same way that these republicans are afraid to get that out there. >> we'll pick this up in a second because i want to show another exchange that actually was a tearful exchange, again, involving john mccain. we'll show that when we come back. humans. even when we cross our t's and dot our i's, we still run into problems.

namely, other humans. which is why at liberty mutual insurance, auto policies come with new car replacement and accident forgiveness if you qualify. see what else comes standard at libertymutual.com. liberty mutual insurance. responsibility. what's your policy?

it kills me every time i hear senators, especially republicans, talk about those

takers. they're just taken. the takers. i paid taxes for over 30 years and i have a rare illness and now i'm disabled. the state of arizona raised the eligibility for a program that was paying $100 a month for my medicaid to 3.4%. consequently, i was cut off. $100 a month, which meant i could no longer go to physical therapy. do it intentionally to cut as many people as they can for as long as they can from benefits that are desperately needed and it's just not right. we're the takers. >> i thank you, you're not a taker. you're not a taker. that was amazing to watch because to me what i thought was i watching there is somebody, we talked earlier about the media bubbles, the media bubble on the conservative side where that rhetoric of makers versus takers. paul ryan talked about it and

mitt romney had had the 47% tape that came out last year. that, to me, is somebody who has heard that and doesn't live in that bubble and sort of looked at themselves and had a powerful, emotional reaction and here's a public office holder and said, no, ma'am, you're not a taker. >> mccain walking over to her and say you're not a taker, you're not a taker. it's absurd. it's gotten to the point of absurdity when the republicans have to justify to say to a person like that, you're not a taker. this is still going on. again, this is the same problem the republicans have and this is why i think they ultimately so want the democrats to cut social security and medicaid and medicare down the road because they don't want to have to own this. i mean, just last week fox news had had a two-hour special on how people on food stamps are takers. i mean, this is, this is -- >> surfing because he's -- >> i'm absolutely sure there is

one guy. >> the power of the anecdotal runs both ways. >> i understand. but the reality is that guy who is getting $200, if that's going to be the leverage point to deny this woman the the benefits to physical therapy, the republicans are going to have a problem. and they are feeling this. they are feeling this. >> and a more considered thing, though, social security disability has exploded because people have learned how to play the game. there are tragic, horrible stories and many, many millions of people who deserve it, but there are also people who exploit every social system -- >> there's a lot of reasons why that is happening, and it's not because people are gaming the system. >> there are. the anecdotal cuts both ways. >> the bigger point we want to make here is to have a veteran united states senator, a powerful united states senator, a person who forces a member of one party to confront and be confronted by that, this is a real shame. you can send e-mails -- you send

an e-mail to an office and get an automated response. send a letter and -- this is the last chance people get to have real conversations. >> and it's easy to talk about the numbers and put it in this big context, where you're not seeing the those human faces. and i think that interaction that you just played is the republican party problem in the nutshell. when people actually hear the rhetoric and it occurs to them, they're not talking about some faceless other. they're talking about me. they are never going to vote for a party that sees them as a bunch of mooching takers. >> all right. quickly? >> i think you saw the same thing with romney. he would have these town halls and people would talk about, i'm having problems paying my bills, having problems with my prescription drugs, and he would say, well, we have to cut taxes. there was no connection. >> i think it was a town hall when that answer from him came out, if you want to start a business, borrow money from your parents. an unscripted moment, that's what they're all afraid of. anyway, what do we know now that we didn't know last week? that's next. major victories. i'm phil mickelson, pro golfer.

when i was diagnosed with psoriatic arthritis, my rheumatologist prescribed enbrel for my pain and stiffness, and to help stop joint damage. [ male announcer ] enbrel may lower your ability to fight infections. serious, sometimes fatal events including infections, tuberculosis, lymphoma, other cancers, nervous system and blood disorders, and allergic reactions have occurred. before starting enbrel, your doctor should test you for tuberculosis and discuss whether you've been to a region where certain fungal infections are common. you should not start enbrel if you have an infection like the flu. tell your doctor if you're prone to infections, have cuts or sores, have had hepatitis b, have been treated for heart failure, or if you have symptoms such as persistent fever, bruising, bleeding, or paleness. since enbrel helped relieve my joint pain, it's the little things that mean the most. ask your rheumatologist if enbrel is right for you. [ doctor ] enbrel, the number one biologic medicine prescribed by rheumatologists. to fly home for the big family reunion. you must be garth's father? hello.

mother. mother! traveling is easy with the venture card because you can fly any airline anytime. two words. double miles! this guy can act. wanna play dodge rock? oh, you guys! and with double miles you can actually use, you never miss the fun. beard growing contest and go! ♪ i win! what's in your wallet?

all right. time to find out what our guests know that they didn't know when the week began. we'll start with you, krystal. >> big, big news this week. area 51 is real. which we actually sort of already knew, but the government actually confirmed this week. >> but no news about any extraterrestrials there. >> there's still many unanswered questions. let's be clear. >> there's still a massive, massive cover-up. >> we know this week that "the new york times" isn't entirely in the tank for hillary clinton with a remarkable examination of the hillary and bill clinton foundation and a lot of the barnacles that are underneath the clinton ship of state. >> sam? >> we know despite president obama's assurances from a couple of weeks ago, that two stories in "the washington post" this week outline that there's been thousands of violations by the nsa of the surveillance laws, just last year, and that the fisa court judge, he doesn't think that they have the ability to monitor those type of violations. so we're going to see, i think, a new round of hearings from senator leahy.

>> all right. nia? >> we now know that the movie "the butler" is a movie worth seeing. it came out yesterday, starring, of course, forest whitaker, based on the real life of a butler who served eight administrations. oprah winfrey's in it, lenny kravitz, i think i'll go see it later today. >> it's on my list, but my list goes about three years, the last time i saw a movie. thanks to krystal ball, sam cedar, and nia-malika henderson of "the washington post." thank you all for getting up and thank you for joining us today for "up." join us tomorrow, sunday morning at 8:00, we'll have hakim jeffries on the politics of crime. and up next, melissa harris-perry with joy reid sitting in. the 25-year anniversary sheds light on the state of police today. why ice cube is just as relevant as ever. that's melissa harris-perry with joy reid sitting in.

thanks for getting up. # ♪

if you have high cholesterol, here's some information that may be worth looking into. in a clinical trial versus lipitor, crestor got more high-risk patients' bad cholesterol to a goal of under 100. getting to goal is important, especially if you have high cholesterol plus any of these risk factors because you could be at increased risk for plaque buildup in your arteries over time. and that's why when diet and exercise alone aren't enough to lower cholesterol i prescribe crestor. [ female announcer ] crestor is not right for everyone. like people with liver disease or women who are nursing, pregnant or may become pregnant. tell your doctor about other medicines you're taking.

call your doctor right away if you have muscle pain or weakness, feel unusually tired, have loss of appetite, upper belly pain, dark urine or yellowing of skin or eyes. these could be signs of rare but serious side effects. is your cholesterol at goal? ask your doctor about crestor. [ female announcer ] if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. [ female announcer ] if you can't afford your medication, i asked my husband to pay our bill, and he forgot. you have the it card and it's your first time missing a payment, so there's no late fee. really? yep! so is your husband off the hook? no. he went out for milk last week and came back with a puppy. hold it. hold it. hold it. at discover, we treat you like you'd treat you. get the it card with late payment forgiveness. ♪ ♪

(vo) purina cat chow. 50 years of feeding great relationships. this morning, my question. how would nwa rap about stop and frisk? plus, how one illinois town is trying to make amends for justice delayed. and repercussions of the fracking craze. but first, a country on the brink, as the cycle of violence continues in egypt. good morning. i'm joy reid in for melissa harris-perry. we want to get right into the developing story out of egypt this morning, where more than 800 people have been killed since wednesday and thousands injured in clashes between the military and supporters of deposed president, mohamed morsi. this morning, hundreds of