half dozen shots with an ak-47. >> images of s.w.a.t. teams surrounding the school. >> i told him that i loved him and that it was going to be okay. >> killed for fun. >> gunned down while out for a run. >> a white athlete murdered by three african-american teenagers. >> because they were bored. >> i'm going to do everything that i can to ensure these three thugs pay for what they did. >> alan west 2003ed who will the president of the united states identify with this time. >> the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. ♪ each year more than 16,000 americans are killed, 11,000 of them with guns. but it's just a handful of shooting deaths that capture the media and thus the public's attention because somehow those deaths seem to signify something

bigger and more all of than even the individual deaths themselves. new town, aurora, the trayvon martin case and now this. on friday, chris lane, a 22-year-old australian in the united states on a baseball scholarship was visiting his girlfriend in duncan, oklahoma. when he was out for an afternoon jog, he was shot in the back and died at a local hospital. the suspected assailants? three teenage boys who were "bored" so they decided to kill someone. two of the teens have been charged with first-degree murder and the third the driver of the car has been charged with accessory to murder. then yesterday afternoon, a 20-year-old man allegedly armed with an ak-47 assault style rifle in what police are saying was almost 500 rounds of ammunition entered ronald e. mcnair discovery learning academy, an elementary school just outside of atlanta. after more than 800 terrified children from prekindergarten

through fifth grade were evacuated from the school, he exchanged fire with police after which a bookkeeper at the school convinced the suspect to surrender, thankfully avoiding any deaths or injuries. and so while the conversation about violence and crime in our country will certainly include race and poverty and gangs and even video games and movies, there's one aspect, one commonality that cannot be avoided. there are too many.guns. there's too much access to guns and there are too many ewing people killed by guns every day. i'm joined by the columnist for the chicago tribune clarence page and brine buttonler. charns, these are two very different stories on many levels. the location is different, the race of the suspects is different. the types of guns used. the common denamnater are young people are access to guns. where does a 20-year-old get an ak-47. >> no, we can't get away from the that fact, joy.

and getting an ak-47 is not as hard as it ought to be. we don't know the how this fellow got ahold of his. but in recent years, we have had more of a proliferation of guns and more ease of access rather than tightening things up. even the assault weapons ban was repealed. we've had a very difficult time trying to get new reforms imposed whether it's background collection or assault weapons ban. obviously the insanity involved in these two cases shows background checks and tougher access are what we need. >> brian, you wrote an incredible piece where you detailed your own shooting at the hands of young men who would fit the profile of people that would be stop and frisk, for instance, in new york. you wrote anyone whose instinct is to crouch defensively and treat felon resembles their attackers like criminals i'm living proof there's another way. you made an analogy to canadiens and hockey saying just because

canadiens were great hockey players doesn't mean all canadians are great hockey players. even in the face of these kinds of shootings, you don't believe profiling is the answer. why is that? >> just for the reason that you said is that you know, for me, you know, my attackers were young black men. but the kind of attack i experienced was a pretty rather thing. i was unlucky. it would sort of defy logic and sticks for me to assume that people who resemble my attackers are likely to be criminals themselves. i wouldn't do it. that's why i appreciated the way you framed this at the beginning, are that it would be nice to at least not regard these shootings primarily at least by the race of the gunman because then you get into the situation where some people are trying to tally up you know, the number of shootings perpetrated by black youth versus white youth and that just doesn't feel like a healthy way for society to be pitting individuals

against each other. >> you've teed up exactly -- that is exactly what's happening on the right, right now. you're starting to see commentary around the shooting of this baseball player from australia, a horrible and horrific event. you've started to see people on the right tally it up on the basis of race. i want to read a tweet from alan west who can be countedton make something more indeniedtory when it's already tragic. he tweeted we were bored and decided to kill somebody. three black teens shoot white jogger. who will potus identify with this time? and if that's not bad enough, you then have fox news inaccurately talking about the race of these shooters in a way to sort of try to bait barack obama on race. let me play you some sound, clarence, and get your comment. >> trayvon martin here and in the rose garden. why the hasn't he spoken out on this in this case? you said there was a judicial proceeding. there was one in the trayvon

martin case. he spoke out extensively on that one. >> there's the right directly trying to bait the president on race, a situation with the baseball player is already tragic. why do they seem so determined to also make it racial. >> they've been champing at the bit waiting for a case that would help them to problem the point that white people are not -- that their lives aren't as valued as much as black people's lives are, the exact opposite of what experience tells us. this case does not apply. people forgetting that in the trayvon martin case, the parents were upset that the suspect, zimmerman, was released without much suspicion at all. and that was when the state reopened the case and decided there was enough evidence to prosecute. what we're looking for here is equal justice. if the -- if the white australian who was killed was not getting sequel justice in this case, i would be protesting as much as anybody ought to be.

>> absolutely. the chris lane case is now becoming fodder for the right to make this racial case against barack obama and because you've written about this so recently it, turns out they're wrong. that it wasn't three white assailants in the chris lane shooting. one of them was actually white. how does the right sustain this narrative where they're framing everything in what you talked about trayvon martin, why don't you care about white victims. .one of the shooters here was might. >> the what we've seen is not just the trayvon martin shooting but what happened in aurora and sandy hook where you have -- where you have white perpetrators, and so you know, conservatives have been on fox news and on drudge looking for incidents of black use behaving badly. you heard them talk a lot about how upset they are that black leaders aren't paying attention to what's happening in chicago as if that were the truth, as if black leaders actually weren't

doing that. i don't think that that ultimately gets you anywhere except to maybe confuse the issue and prevent people sort of partisans to your point of view from maybe seeing things a different way. but you know, what i keep coming back to in all this is that whether you're talking about white shooters or black shooters, shootings in general are pretty rare. and if you want to reduce the numbers of them even further, there are better ways to go about it than trying to stereotype what you think shooters look like and you know, stopping them in public and interrogating them and fricking them. >> one of the ways that a lot of people would suggest would be to get more guns off the street and i should have said alleged shooter earlier. i want to read you what the australian former deputy prime minister tim fisher had to say specifically about the chris lane shooting. and he took it to the issue where i think it matters not race but guns. he said tourists thinking of going to the usa should think twice. this is the bitter harvest and legacy of the policies of the

nra that blocked background checks for people buying at gun shows. people should take this into account before going to the united states. i'm angry about this because of the callus attitude of the three teenagers but it's a sign of the proliferation of guns on the ground in the usa. clarence, the right wants to bait the president into a conversation about this. do they really want that conversation? according to the folks in australia, at least this gentleman, it is about guns. >> if the shoe fits, wear it. we are the most gun crazy nation on the a plant, unfortunately. and the problem has been, you know rk, most americans want so sensible gun laws. there is a very vocal, very energetic and enthusiastic voice on the other side, the nra, and all the money they've got behind them. they really represent the gun industry more than gun owners. and that's been a real log jam for us, maybe economic pressures

or just the all of au image that we're getting will have some impact although i'm afraid i doubt it. >> we want to have this conversation about chris lane but it comes back to guns. thank you both for being here. coming up, the face of the defund obama care movement has some advice for uneasy conservatives. >> if you have an impasse you want to know one side or the other has to blink. how do we win this fight? don't blink. hey kevin...still eating chalk for heartburn? yeah... try new alka seltzer fruit chews. they work fast on heartburn and taste awesome. these are good. told ya! i'm feeling better already. [ male announcer ] new alka seltzer fruits chews. enjoy the relief! when she's happy, she writes about bunnies. when she's sad, she writes about goblins. [ balloon pops, goblin growling ]

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senator ted cruz ascended a stage in dallas last night and told a crowd of conservatives ready to defund obama care how

they can do it. and you know what, cruz may have finally figured out a way. >> we've got to do something that conservatives haven't done in a long time. we've got to stand up and win the arguments. >> that's right. to win the debate, you have to win the argument. you know, i think that makes more sense if you say it with a texas accent. unfortunately, as several protests during the rally indicated, even in the safe confines of a heritage action rally in the heart of dallas, conservatives are having trouble making the sale. worse, they seem to think the only thing their side is missing is some loud 2008 style yes, we can rhetoric. >> can we stop the irs? >> yes, we can. >> can we mobilize grass-roots america? >> yes, we can. >> and can we defund obama care? >> yes, we can.

>> yes, we can. joining us is democratic congressman james clyburn of south carolina. welcome, congressman. >> thank you so much for having me, joy. >> congressman, why do you suppose that republicans think or do you think they're really do believe they can get barack obama to blink and literally sign the repeal of his own health care law? >> i doubt that very seriously. i would say to the little iteration there, two out of three ain't bad. they may get some grass-roots to rally. and i think they'll get grass-roots to the rally on the other side of that issue. we'll with all talk about what should or should not be the role of the irs. but when it comes to the affordable care act or obama care, whatever you wish to call it, the president is never going to sign any legislation coming to his desk that will try to

defund this great program that they are finding out in their town hall meetings that there are many, many poor people in support of this program than the ones that they tend to correspond with time and time again. this is a good program. it is what people have been asking for. in some instances for almost 100 years. it's finally here. it's becoming eb. people are beginning to understand it. they like what they are hearing about it. and there will be some adjustments to be made time and time again. but that's the way it is with any major piece of legislation. it was the way it was with social security. the way it was with medicare. and it's the way it's going to be with the affordable care act. >> and it's also settled law by the supreme court. one of the issues that the republican party clearly is having is demographics.

last night both ted cruz, senator cruz and your fellow south carolinian, jim demint kept mentioning how they're fighting for the poor and minorities. take a listen and respond on the other side. >> the people who have been hurt the most by obama care are the most vulnerable among us. they're young people. they're hispanics. they're african-americans, they're single moms. >> our ideas help the poorest. they help minorities. they help the youth. >> so congressman, if the republican argument is we're helping the poor and minorities and single moms, that means they're really in trouble, right? >> well, just because you say it, doesn't make it so. the fact of the matter is, if that were true, why is it that the majority of the minorities i know of in this country that i've seen any polling on indicate that they support the affordable care act. why it is that a majority of the young people in this country support the affordable care act

or they are saying that these young well educated people on college campuses all over this country some of them recently college graduates don't know what's best for them. they've got to count on these republican conservatives to do their thinking for them. i don't think so. i believe that if you like the idea so well and you believe that it works so well, why would you not bring these issues to the floor of the congress, don't wait for a majority or the majority, but put them out there and see can you get a majority of the american representatives to vote for it. so i feel very comfortable that we're in a good place with the affordable care act and i think that when these issues are decided, when we get back after this august break, you're going to see a different attitude on the part of some of our

republican friends. >> congressman, i want to change topics a little bit. obviously we're coming up on the 50th anniversary of the march on washington. clearly as someone who lived in the jim crow south, give us your assessment how far we've come over the course of this 50 years. >> we've come very far. look, when i was coming along, i said to someone earlier today, when i went away to college, even when i graduated from college, there wasn't a single african-american elected to the state legislature. in fact, i think if my memory serves, there was only one african-american elected to a county commission down in buford, south carolina. and we see what we currently have. i think that when you look at the impact of the civil rights act of 1964, the voting rights act of 1965, you've got to admit that we have come a long, long

ways. that's not our problem. our problem is, whether or not we have learned those lessons of our history. whether or not we can understand that anything that's happened before can happen again. and we'll beginning to see some things happening again. legislatures throughout the south, members using the words nullification and interposition in the fighting for new legislation to cut back on voting strength. to suppress the vote, are to suppress women's rights. to get rid of the impact of the voting rights act of 1965, these things are coming back to visit us. and the question is -- have we learned the lessons of what happened after the supreme court decision of 1875 that started the jim crow laws that became the law of the land in 1896 and lasted for almost 70 years. if we've learned that history,

then as we celebrate or commemorate the march on washington next week, we will not celebrate but just commemorate. >> all right. well said congressman james clyburn. we'll be dealing with these issues all week on this show. thank you so much for being here. >> thank you so much for having me. coming up, syria and the red line. the white house answers tough new questions on syria. we'll take you there straight ahead. it is.

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including women and children. government denies any such attack took place. i'm joined by kristen welker. the white house is calling for full investigation of the incident. are there any indications if this is verified it could lead to policy change toward the assad gualooem. >> the administration says their policy is under review. they're not going to make any decisions until those allegations about chemical weapons usage are verified. so today you had strong language out of the white house. white house officials saying they are deeply concerned by these reports of chemical weapons usage, condemning the use of chemical weapons. and calling on the syrian government, bashar al assad to allow the u.n. inspectors who are already on the ground inside syria to gain access to the area in question. but as you point out, joy, at this point in time, there is no independent verification ta chemical weapons have been used. and today you had deputy press secretary josh earnest

acknowledging the international response so far has not been enough to bring about the desired effect which is essentially to remove bashar al assad from power. take a listen to what he had to say. >> we've seen evidence that the regime is feeling ta pressure. you're right. it has not resulted in the outcome we would like to see which is assad being completely removed from power. that's not just the preference of the united states of america. that's the will of the syrian people. that's why it's important. >> the u.n. security counsel is holding an emergency meeting today, joy. back in june, sul recall that will president obama announced he was sending small arms to the syrian rebels. that was after initial reports and corroboration of chemical weapons usage. but again, they are waiting to see if these latest reports have been verified before they make any new decisions. president obama a year ago to this month declared the usage of chemical weapons a red red line. that is one of the reasons why he initially decided to send

small arms to the syrian rebels. the question is, what happens next. the president has been clear. he doesn't want to put boots on the ground as of today, the administration says that policy has not changed, but they're hoping to get theirfication soon. joy? >> thanks so much, kristen welker. >> absolutely. >> stay with us. the day's "top lines" are coming up. and chris christie is stuck between a rock and a hard place. it's back to school time and we're talking with diane about the walmart low price guarantee, backed by ad match. you got your list? i do! let's go! here we go cinnamon toast crunch. yay! a perfect school day breakfast. i know if you find a lower advertised price they'll match it at the register. that's amazing. look at that price. i like that. they need those for school. we're always working to lower costs so you get more savings. now your kids have everything they need. all in one place. more school for your money. guaranteed. ready? wow! that's the walmart low price guarantee backed by ad match. save time and money getting your kids ready for school, bring in ads from your local stores and see for yourself.

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gan on the floor of the united states senate. >> new jersey hasn't elected a republican to the senate since 1972. >> steve and i have believed and still believe in so many of the same things. >> this guy is really right wing and extreme. >> because we do share the most important issues of the republican party. >> in new jersey, at the opposed family medical leave funding. okay? >> i'll be as callus and uncaring as you can imagine. >> we believe in limited government. >> i have no interest in paying four your health care. i'd hate to see you get cancer. >> we believe in small business, not big government. >> people are going to say, doesn't this mean a tax increase for the poor? and the answer is yes, it does. >> we embrace free enterprise, not more entitlement states. >> i can only wish that that school principal was armed. she may have at least slowed him down. we believe in the bill of rights and not going to allow it to be undermined. >> president obama, don't tread on my freedom, don't tread on my

liberty. don't tread on me. >> chris christie says he wants to help this guy but he scheduled the election to avoid being on the same ticket. >> in other words, say anything, do anything, get elected first. and deceive the people in order to get elected. >> wait till they see steve lon gan on the flor of the united states senate. >> for the governor, it's a chance to embrace the tea party segment of the republican electorate he's going to need in his presidential race. >> steve and i have believed and still believe in so many of the same things. >> if you win an election or get re-elected by saying anything, what good is it? >>. >> oh, dear. let's get to our panel. crystal ball, co-host of the "cycle" and mckay coppins, political editor at buzzfeed.com. mckay, i'm going with you first. mr. lonegan in addition to not caring if we get cancer. it's not his problem. >> he's not going to pay for it.

>> are you saying he's pro cancer? >> i'm just saying it's not his problem. i can't get enough of steve lon na gan. this is relevant to chris christie. listen to what he had to say to aid about victims of hurricane sandy and react. >> do you think the federal government should be supplying funds in any way to any extent? >> the role of the federal government is questionable. if we look at suicide's home destroyed in a hurricane, that is tragic to see their home being destroyed, remember every day around this country somewhere, somebody is suffering a tragedy of equal or worse impact. we don't run and hand them a check. the role of the federal government needs to be limited to the role of the federal government. >> mckay, isn't hurricane sandiened aid one of chris christie's defining issues? >> right. >> how does this work him endorsing lonegan. >> this is the libertarian that christie has tried to go to war

with over the past few weeks. it was with no small amount of irony that he got up there on stage yesterday and said i have been waiting to endorse lonegan. he's my best frent friend. but this is part of a long time for christie. he obviously has his eye on 2016. he knows when he runs in a republican primary, he doesn't want to have a to answer questions why didn't you endorse and go out there and stump for the republican senate candidate in new jersey. he knows lonegan is a long shot and barely a credible candidate. he's made a calculation. he's not going to lose that much support in new jersey by standing next to the guy a couple times in public. >> krystle, what he might lose though is this sort of image he's had as being the straight talking guy who calls it like he sees it. if people don't see it as credible, if they see the naked political calculation mckay just described, doesn't that undermine his brand? >> that's absolutely the danger for him. he has navigated the waters so

beautifully because he has this image of the tough talker and the straight talker and the guy who shoots from the hip. but when you think about him not just in this area in the naked political calculation which by the way, not only is there no chance this guy is going to win, but christie insured by setting the election date that any republican nominee had no chance of winning. when you look at issue of an issue, he's very hard to nail down. where does he stand on gun rights exactly? he's sort of here and there. on abortion rights, on climate change, even on his approach to dealing with business, he's kind of got a little bit in both camps. what he's been able to do is when he's in front of a conservative audience, he else is the part they like. in front of a more moderate audience, he else is the part they like. that's been his brilliance. if he can maintain is an open question >> he krystle makes a great point. he is whoever you need him to be at the moment. he's also the guy who shook hands with president obama. that image is permanent, all over the internet, it's going to

dog him if he runs in 2016. he can't pull this balancing act off. >> i was just on the phone with a leading tea party activist. she has a lot of problems with chris christie. but the obama stuff is not primary among them. you know, i think that we will tend to think that any republican who makes friends with obama is dead in the water among the conservative base. i think that the real problems are what krystle said. where is he exactly on guns. that was something that came up among many of the conservatives even i talked to at that event yesterday where christie endorsed lonegan. those are the issues that hurt him among the base. the cardinal sin in a lot of the conservatives was that christie did not show up for romney at the end of the election. not so much that he was friends with obama or any of these other issues. this is kind of what we're seeing with lonegan. >> krystle, given all of that,ing is it realistic,

whatever the republican establishment might want, they clearly would prefer christie be the nominee, is it realistic to think he could win the nomination for president? >> i think it is it as much as we saw the far right come out in 2012, eventually they nominated mitt romney, squishy on the issues as chris christie has been. christie is a very, very talented politics. he has this persona that's larger than life. you feel like he's saying what he thinks. a lot of times in politics, that feeling is actually more important than where they actually stand on the policy, it's sad to say. >> and then he punches a teacher. >> and they love him on the right. >> thank you very much, crystal ball, mckay coppins, thanks for being here. coming up, the secrets we keep abwhat we can learn from today's sentencing of bradley manning. the secret is out. hydration is in.

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many conservatives love to it out the infallible virtue of the u.s. constitution. here's one section they might want to reread. article 2, section 4. the president, vice president and all civil officers of the united states shall be removed from office on impeachment for and conviction of treason, bribery or other high crimes and misdemeanors. treason, doesn't say anything because you don't like a president's policies or maybe you don't believe them or the hospital who say they were born in hawaii. so somebody please send a copy of the constitution over to congressman kerry bent volio of michigan. when asked at a town hall meeting on monday whether someone could write a bill to get riz of president obama, he had this to say. >> i could write that bill and sub at this time it. >> do it. >> excuse me. it would be a dream come true. i feel your pain. i know i stood 12 feet away from

the guy and listened to him. and i couldn't stand being there. i went back to my office and i had lawyers come in and these are lawyers, ph.d.s in history. i said tell me how i can impeach the president of the united states. >> oh, you don't need lawyers to tell you how. just read your constitution. i'm joined by political strategist angela rye. angela, what is going on here? why does it seem even elected republicans are feeding this fantasy that their base has about impeaching barack obama barack obama? >> i think you said it right just there the fact it's something their base continues to push. we have these crazy gerrymandered districts and there are folks in those areas that are urging their legislators, members of the house of representatives, to push for this. i don't know the if it's because they're still angry, you know, 2008 and 2012 later, they're still trying to push for barack obama to get out of here.

he's not a citizen. he shouldn't be president. there are all of these things. like you said, those are not grounds for impeachment because you have pettily political disagreement with the president. it's it's not a good cause. >> i want to bring in the "washington post" jonathan capehart and an msnbc analyst. is impeachment another form of gop obstructionist taken to the extreme or do you get the sense that republicans feel like this is something we have to say to our base in order to avoid ourselves being removed from office? >> look. looking at some of the videos that we've been seeing from town hall meetings, this is something that's not sort of coming from the members of congress. it's coming from the grass-roots, from people who are really angry still at president obama and you know, as i said to chris matthews yesterday, it seems as though the birther conversation is still out there five years later and all the evidence later, there are people still questioning the

president's legitimacy and his birth certificate. and now they're moving from his birth certificate is fake to what can we do about this person in the office illegally. some members of congress is bring up impeachment and say it's not even possible because they could impeach him in the house but they couldn't convict him in the senate. and then there are other people who ask the question outright. how can we impeach him because he, meaning the president, has done something wrong even though the president hasn't. >> right. you know what, angela, what jonathan is talking about is something that began in right wing media or belongs in the entertainment space but it's creeping over into the political space. is this a sign that essentially right wing media has taken control of the republican party? >> i think that's absolutely right. they are responsible for the gop's talking points. as we've seen the evolution of the gop from, you know, extremetom very extreme, so the

tea party folks, the folks responsible for the birther comments who now ignore the fact that ted cruz was born in canada, whether it's the government shutdown, defunding obama care and ironically, ted cruz is the key champion there and he was the key beneficiary of a health care system that was reformed and it was obama care-like in canada. i don't know. it's definitely the media contributing a great deal to this. >> you've brought up a sensitive subject for the canadians in ted cruz. i've got to bring up another fantasy that the right continue to indulge, the birther issue. the idea that the president was not really born in the united states. the governor of maine, has taken this to a whole other level. he's denying the comments but he essentially said that president obama hates white people. doesn't like white people. let employee play you some sound of him denying those comments. then get your response. >> no, i never said that. and you guys are all about gossip. >> jonathan, gossip?

the president has a white parent, his mom, was raised by his white grandparents. if this guy, people heard him in this event say the president hates white people, what do we make of this? >> well, remember one of the first people to ever say that the president hated white people, if i'm not mistaken, was glenn beck going backing to people in the media feeding this sort of frenzied false narrative about the president. look, these accusations against president obama are groundless. they're false. they're pernicious. and they're wrong. and the great thing bandage comments like these, it's not that the someone says this and then they're just sort of dismissed as crazy or someone who is out of the mainstream. anytime whether it's a governor, a member of congress or someone in the right wing media says something like this, there are people out there, not just us, but there are people out there who take that person to task and

hold them to account. now that we've got the governor of maine trying to spin his way out of the mess he's gotten himself into, we should view that as a victory. but it's something that we all have to guard against because for anyoneton accuse the president of being racist against anyone is you know, is a bad thing for the president, but it's also a bad thing for our national political discourse. we should be better than this. >> you know what, angela, jonathan makes a lot of great points. politico wrote a in which they talked about republican party strategists kind of understanding all this rhetoric is really hurting the party. it's making them almost a worse position than they were in 2008 and in the last election with african-americans, with hispanics. the overreaction to barack obama. do you get a sense at all on capitol hill that outside the consultants, that actual elected politicians, republicans, see this as a problem and want to change it? >> you know, unfortunately, joy, i don't see a lot of folks saying that this is a huge

problem. what we have seen so far is you know, the gop plan to reach out to people of color. forever since they put out that plan saying they're going to pour $11 million in flow outreach, they've continued to fumble this issue. they continue to perpetuate racism or you know, demonstrate they don't care about immigration reform and really shying away from issues that people of color, folks underserved really, really care about. so even yesterday, i think ted cruz is at a town hall saying obama care will hurt communities of color. so it's not just they don't get it. they're actually lying to the folks that elected them. i think it's a huge problem. >> i think the good news is when ted cruz was at the town hall, he didn't have an audience giving him unanimous applause. some people in the base are starting to be skeptical. you're doing this for people of color. the republicans have not yet presented a way they would provide health care to 30 million people who won't have it without obama care. don't they at some point have to

deal with that? >> at some point they have to deal with that, with all of the issues facing the country. everything about the republican party and what they've been pushing since the election has been no. no to everything. but no alternative. and when people go to the polls as they did in 2012, i'm thinking presidential election years but we might see a change in 2014, when people go to the polls, they want to know what's your vision for the country. how are you? going to govern the american people. the american people want government and the republicans who have been coming to washington since 2010 have don't know anything about governing. they don't care about governing because they come from districts that are very safe and they were elected by people who sent them here to stop washington in its tracks to cut everything and cut it now. >> yeah. absolutely. i agree with you, jonathan. i agree with both of you. people like to vote for something.

angela, jonathan, thanks to both of you. coming up, the secrets we keep and the nsa debate. hey linda! what are you guys doing? having some fiber! with new phillips' fiber good gummies. they're fruity delicious! just two gummies have 4 grams of fiber! to help support regularity! i want some... [ woman ] hop on over! [ marge ] fiber the fun way, from phillips'. but you had to leave rightce to now, would you go? world, [ woman ] hop on over! man: 'oh i can't go tonight' woman: 'i can't.' hero : that's what expedia asked me. host: book the flight but you have to go right now. hero: (laughs) and i just go? this is for real right? this is for real? i always said one day i'd go to china, just never thought it'd be today. anncr: we're giving away a trip every day. download the expedia app and your next trip could be on us. expedia, find yours.

the news broke just after 10:00 this morninging that army private first class bradley manning has been sentenced to a maximum of 35 years for giving hundreds of thousands of documents to wikileaks. it wasn't long before support 0ers made the claim his sentence is exactly why edward snowden, source of much of the nsa leaks was right to stay in russia. glenn green wald, account guardian reporter tweeted manning sentenced to 35 years. gee, i wonder why snowden doesn't trust u.s. justice as a whistleblower. joining us to discuss by phone this issue, the nsa is "vanity fair" contributing editor kirk eichenwald, the author of the

book "3500 days -- secrets and lies in the terror wars." i feel like you've written the most extensively and rationally about the issue because you really don't have a dog in the fight. explain to us what the nsa programs is are and why you think they're broader and bigger than we think but not as nefarious as we think. >> it's interesting when this whole thing exploded i kind of scratched my head because i actually disclosed the program in my last book and how it worked. but with a lot more detail than what we're talking about now. the way the program worked, it was adopted in november of 2001 under the bush administration. and it is a system that collects a massive amount of data, more data than people are talking about, phone data, e-mail data, as well as about $8 billion different records of a lot of publicly available stuff. information within government, and it creates an enormous

database that they use a system called kdd, where they're digging through and running algorithms to find particular patterns that would suggest here is a location we should look at. they are tracing things that are called dirty numbers, numbers that they know are connected to terrorist activities and if you are in the united states and you call one of these things, you will be flagged. and you might get a subpoena issued. one of the first ones they found that called one of those dirty numbers was in fact a phone call out of the white house under the bush administration, which i always thought was hilarious. and you know, in the end there is so much data going in and so much data being used, that this idea that the 30,000 or so people at the nsa are all listening to our phone calls is absurd. it is a fundamental misunderstanding and lack of

knowledge about the way intelligence gathering works and what the purpose of this is. and you know, the other thing to bear in mind is that this whole issue was debated publicly in 2008. apparently people just didn't pay attention. and they adopted amendments to the foreign intelligence surveillance act which governs the nsa, it's called section 702. i urge people, you can look it up on google. what it does is put in enormous restrictions on what the nsa can do and what they can't do. >> and for one thing, it requires court orders. i want to quickly, we talked about -- we let glenn green wald know we were going to talk to you today. his response was a diatribe about msnbc. what do you think has been flawed about the reporting about nsa so far briefly? >> the biggest one, that you just laid out is an example. i want to talk about facts.

and folks to want to be in this hysterical position, if you try to raise them up, they'll do the diatribes about who you are. i've been told i've been carrying water for the nsa because i want to talk about facts. >> unfortunately, we do have to leave it there. i have so much more to talk to you about. thank you so much. we'll be right back. check it out... over 20 million drivers are insured with geico. so get a free rate quote today. i love it! how much do you love it? animation is hot...and i think it makes geico's 20 million drivers message very compelling, very compelling. this is some really strong stuff! so you turned me into a cartoon...lovely. geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. yeah... try new alka seltzer fruit chews. they work fast on heartburn and taste awesome.

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thanks for watching. "hardball" starts now. >> cruzzing for a bruisen? let's play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. tonight, invasion of the body snatchers. the soul of a major american political party is suddenly up for grabs. party of lincoln and the emancipation