let's play "hardball." good evening. good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. ask yourself, would abraham lincoln be a republican in 2013? would the man sitting up in that chair yesterday be invited to join the party of the birth errs, nullifiers and talkers of succession? just ask yourself in a lineup of ted cruz, rick perry and michele bachmann, and the great emancipator, who would be the odd man out? the reason the republican party wasn't represented yesterday at the king reunion at the lincoln memorial is that the republican party no more longer represents abraham lincoln. its real leader today would be jefferson davis or george wallace or strom thurmond, or some other character in the long list of null fires and obstructionists and states righters. can you imagine the reaction of

tom paul had he been alive at the time of the emancipation proclamation? please don't ask. can you imagine to rick perry's claim that texas has the right to succeed from the union any time it feels like it. the values of abraham lincoln, the belief in a strong federal government, the paramount right of human right others states' rights, suggest he, abraham lincoln would be far more welcome in the other political party, while jeff davis and his boys would be far more welcome in the party of paul, perry, bachmann, and lee. so who is kidding who? boehner and the boys, paul and lee didn't make it wednesday is they don't feel they wanted to be in the same picture as abraham lincoln. and do you even have to ask how proud lincoln would be to see who the president of the united states is today? do you even have to ask? as milliken would say, give me a break. michael steele is former

chairman of the republican national committee and u.s. congresswoman donna edwards is a democratic congresswoman from maryland who spoke at yesterday's events commemorating the -- well, its 50th anniversary of the march on washington. congresswoman, i think i'm right. tables have been switched in the last 100 years -- the last 150 years since the emancipation proclamation and certainly in the last 50 years since the march on washington, things have changed. the party of the south, the democratic party, the old segregationists party has been replaced di dixiecrats pretending to be republicans. >> i think it's true. apart from my friend here to the right. >> is an exception. >> an exception. but it used to be the case in my state and across the country you actually had republicans who were moderate. maybe they were fiscal conservatives, but they did not share this very right wing, very rigid agenda that we're hearing today. and it's not inclusive at all. i think lincoln must be rolling over. >> hugh scott and all those people like arlen specter even. i want to talk about this. the real topic i want to bring

is up why wasn't your party represented yesterday there is all kinds of excuses. woody allen once said something really brilliant. he said 80% of life is showing up. and your guys. >> they didn't show up. and quite frankly, chris, everything else you said notwithstanding not showing up to that event yesterday to me was abhorrent. it was a slap in the face of everett dirksen and all the republicans who fought to bring civil rights legislation to the table to work with dr. king and to really push forward the agenda that had been so much a part of the history of our party. going back to the 13th amendment, the 14th amendment, when they were originally written by republicans post reconstruction. so to not be there in that moment to look america in the eye and complete that leap, that forward progress for the american people, and to say that the african-american community,

that we have made missteps in the last 50 years, but we stand here united with you in the journey forward in the life and times of dr. king. >> you're wonderful to say this to be honest about your party, but it wasn't just one or two people. >> no, none of them. >> the day two stories on yesterday's story on the march in washington commemoration of course noted there were no republican elected officials on the steps of the lincoln memorial yesterday. "the washington post" headlines says republicans absent from march on washington. a headline of "the wall street journal" reads at 50th anniversary of march, no gop speakers. interesting point here. for evidence of the shift over the years, let's take a look. let's take a look now at the relationship between the republican party and african-american voters. consider this example. contained neatly in two generations of the romney family. here is george romney marching with civil rights activists through detroit's gross point suburb in 1963. that's 50 years ago. the editorial information on that ap photo notes romney said he had not been asked to head the parade, but added since he was in the detroit area, he

decided to come out anyway. in other words, he didn't wait for an invitation. he made sure he was there. in this 1966 reelection -- his 1966 reelection for campaign for michigan governor, romney won 30% of the black vote. one generation later in the same family, mitt romney wins 6% of the african-american vote. by the way, here is a great picture. where i grew up in. jackie robinson and nelson rockefeller. he told reporters he was a rockefeller republican. you had jackie robinson, lionel hampton, all those people, famous people, wilt chamberlain, a lot of people were republicans. today you can't find them. >> a lot of our families were. i can go back in my family, especially my family in north carolina, and there were a lot of republicans. but when the party changed, you know, blacks decide we needed to go to a plays where we were welcome and where we were at home. where somebody spoke to our agenda of things that were of concern to us. and right now the republican party just doesn't.

>> doesn't it shatter you like yourself colin powell is a republican? and yet the party would call him a rhino. >> oh my goodness, yes. i can't tell you how many times powell, myself, j.c. watts, we were all called rhinos because we don't tow this ridiculous line where we judge people and we make these -- >> but your roots in the party are deeper. your roots go back intellectually and historically. >> trust me, my roots are much deeper than the people who run their mouths. i've just gotten into the point at my life where i ignore the noise and forge ahead. >> why the dixiecrats, who all quit the democratic party when it went for civil rights and voting rights in the '60s, and lyndon johnson saying i know i'm going to lose them, why didn't your party embrace them? >> it's presidential politics. it was a strategy to win the white house as opposed to recognizing that the future of the party really rested in those smaller communities, in those local elections for mayor and for city councilmen. that's where the strength of the party is. when the community looks around

and sees republicans, particularly african-american republicans, no, well, the strategy was abandoned. >> but you all can't win a national election with the party you have. >> i call you donna because we're friends. let me just tell you, what strikes me, it was a nice day yesterday, by the way. and the weather was great, because it wasn't real hot. even a little rainy is better than the scorching hot we've been having. there were no personal shots. maybe one or two, against republicans by name. nothing by name. weren't you amazed at that? there was no partisanship yesterday. >> i think part of the reason is because we were also taking in the moment. i felt really blessed to be able to speak there to stand at the top of the lincoln memorial and to look out at that mall and to see really in terms of dr. king's dream, it was black and white and asian. it was just everything that you could imagine. and i think that people were really taking in the moment. and it was about our values and our norms. and it wasn't about partisan politics. republicans could have been there, could have found a place there and found a home on the stage.

>> shown up and said something. too bad jack kemp -- >> but the organizers also dropped the ball here. >> why do you say that? >> because the only african-american united states senator was not invited to speak. >> that's actually not true. in today's news proves that. actually, in fact -- >> ted scott's office said -- >> no, they declined it. >> their office -- >> we'll check that. >> their office and every report i've seen -- >> we've been spending the day trying to figure out who was invited. >> everyone was invited. >> but they were not invited. he was not invited to speak. and there you're right. no, let me make this point. because i get there are two sides of this coin here. >> roll call says he wasn't invited. >> there are two sides of this coin. yes, he was invited like every member of the united states congress house and senate. but if you have the only african-american sitting in the united states senate and you do not ask him to speak at that event, then there is something wrong. >> let try another way. why not the george romney -- can i ask you something? why didn't the party of lincoln ask to come? >> i get that.

chris, i'm with you on that. but remember, there are two sides of this coin. >> sure. >> he was not invited by the people who put it together to speak. he was invited to attend and not speak. and that was bullheaded. >> i think it's so interesting about the celebrities that were there. forrest whittaker. by the way, does he come off younger in person than the parts he plays? he plays idi amin and the old guy. looks like he is 30. >> he was so gentle and moving. it brought tears to my eyes. i'll tell you that. >> 50 years ago, charlton heston, who has identified so much with the right. and begun rights. yet he was a big civil rights guy. >> huge civil rights guy. >> and a lot of those voices are missing now. i think the party needs to have them reelevated. i think myself, the j.c.s, the kim blackwells need to get out there and push. >> let me tell you, use know, jackie robinson, we've all seen "42." did you see" 42"? >> uh-huh. >> so great. >> jackie robinson is a republican.

he gets on the train with nixon in 1960. and all he wants to do is get him to say something about dr. king being arrested. and just please say something. he gets off the train crying. and he says nixon doesn't get it. that was the moment. you know? these moments make history. >> and it was the reason daddy king left the party, because the party didn't respond to his son sitting in a jail. >> and so what are you going to do about it, michael? >> well, we keep pushing. >> what is the reverberation in the republican party now that they know they were no-shows yesterday? there is no sense shouting about this. i believe we're better off in a country where people like me can go in the voting booth. it doesn't happen all the time there are common elections where you want to have a choice. i may decide i like hillary, but i want to have a choice. i would like biden to run. i would like christie to ron, some reasonable people to run. and i want an option. maybe you don't want an option. but i want an option. >> i think the reverberation is going to be profound. because you cannot go out and tell people that you want their vote and you're going to do everything to get it and then

not show up. it doesn't work like that. >> reince priebus to fight for the black vote? >> i'm going take him at his word. i'm going to take the chairman at his word and we'll see what he delivers. >> three republican states are trying to suppress the black votes. if you don't let the blacks vote, they may not vote for you. >> the chairman is going to have to address that. >> i represent republicans too. i show up. not that they're going to vote for me. not that they're going to agree with me, but i show up. republicans have to start showing up. >> and you take the heat. good for you. congratulations. >> she is a strong woman. >> i know. she may be rung statewide one of these days. i've already been talking. just kidding. thank you, michael steele. look, there is a seat open. u.s. congresswoman donna edwards of maryland. coming up, will we or won't we attack syria? this is serious business. we have two serious people to talk about it with two different views. and it's not just if, but how, and with whose support around the world. are we sending a message that we can do something? can we even prove they did it? what is our ultimate goal here and what consequences are we

willing to accept? what if hezbollah starts shooting at israel because of what we do this week? plus, 50 years ago dr. king denounced southern talk of nullification and interposition. now missouri republicans are about to push through a measure that would nullify federal gun laws. the law would in effect turn federal agents doing their jobs into criminals. how is that, mr. lincoln? also, think it's only the crazies on the right threatening to collapse the economy to get what they want? now it looks as if john boehner and eric cantor are siding with the wild bunch over the debt ceiling. and let me finish tonight with why dr. king -- or rather king solomon would have little trouble smoking out the republicans these days. who wants to cut the baby in half? the right wingers do. that's "hardball," the place for politics. she loves a lot of the same things you do. it's what you love about her. but your erectile dysfunction - that could be a question of blood flow. cialis tadalafil for daily use helps you be ready anytime the moment's right.

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look at this map of detroit. white people are represented by blue dots, african-americans by green. that clear and unambiguous black/white dividing line is the eight mile road. people mapped the entire country's ethnic distribution. you can find your city or town at demographics.coopercenter.org. and we'll be right back.

welcome back to "hardball." the obama administration's desire to send a message to syrian president bashar al assad over his alleged use of chemical weapons last week is running into some speed bumps both at home and abroad. a growing list of lawmakers have called on the president to get congressional approval before any attack on syria. this comes as "the new york times" reported this morning that american intelligence organizations lacked a smoking gun tying assad himself directly to the attack. meanwhile, one of our strongest al lie, great britain, seems to be putting the brakes on any attack. late today its parliament voted

against military intervention in syria. the prime minister david cameron said it was clear to him that the british people did not want to see military action, and his government would act accordingly. and in another troubling development, russia says it's sending two warships of its own to the mediterranean, raising tensions obviously in the region. last night on pbs on the "newshour," the president said he had not made a decision about what action to take, but he spoke about the need to defend the international norm against using chemical weapons. >> if in fact we can take limited tailored approached, not getting drawn into a long conflict, not a repetition of iraq, which i know a lot of people are worried about, but if we are saying in a clear and divisive but very limited way, we send a shot across the bow saying stop doing this, that can have a positive impact on our national security over the long-term. >> well, david ignatius is a

columnist for "the washington post." and david corn is the washington bureau chief for mother jones magazine and an msnbc political analyst. i read your column this morning. i was impressed. but it does raise a couple questions. do we know that the chief, the boss, assad -- i don't even know what his title is -- of syria ordered the use of chemical weapons? do we know that? >> according to "the new york times" reporting, and i don't have independent confirmation of it, we do not have that information. the u.s. intelligence officials are confident that chemical weapons were used, that it was an attack way beyond anything syria has done in the past. >> do we know his defense structure, his military chiefs approved it? >> the attack was so broad that it had -- it was well coordinated.

so the command structure, it couldn't have been done without the command structure knowing about it. >> what do you deal with the government of syria news uses a nerve gas and sarin gas in this case. you say if you do it, we're going to make you pay for it. >> red lines take away the flexibility for the president. >> but he used the red pencil, and he said i will do something. doesn't he have to do it? >> people talk about this all the time. the last thing i think -- the last reason i think we should go in and commit an act of war and perhaps kill civilians is to protect credibility. that goes back to the old kissinger way of looking at the world. but that's something that is debated in washington again and again. the interesting thing regarding what you asked david here is that we have conflicting reports in different media accounts of what the intelligence is of who knew what, where about this attack. the foreign policy magazine put out a report saying that the intelligence intercepts show a syrian defense minister in a panicked way asking a general what happened here. maybe, this is a big maybe. but maybe somebody went off the

reservation. >> suppose you find out -- i want to ask you. two days from now, three days from now a different report comes and says it was pretty clear that the command structure of assad approved this. would you then be for an attack? >> in theory, you know, taking a punitive military action to prevent the further use of chemical weapons can be a good thing. if, and this is what the president said in that clip you just played. the first sentence -- first word in his sentence was if. if in fact we can have a limited strike that achieves these outcomes that don't have even worse unintended consequences. and i think those are really big ifs. i don't think he's gotten though that point yet. >> i want to get to the reporting. david, is it your understanding, you're good with the intelligence community. it your understanding we're still trying to get the intel on this? >> a lot of the intelligence has been gathered. it's in preparation for a big launch to justify the strike. and that was expected as early as today.

>> do we expect an adlai stevenson presentation to the u.n., for example, something on television? >> i was told earlier in the week to expect there would be a roll-out of the intelligence community's findings that would then back up the president's announcement of what he was going to do. that's been delayed by political reality. president obama is finding the difficulties of being a politically weak and vulnerable president. and also, i have to say advertising, telegraphing all of your policy decisions before they've been made, talking about options before you have the political support is a mistake. and he is now caught in that. it's poignant to see this president wanted to get out of iraq and afghanistan, now caught in this syria dilemma. >> let me ask you a question about consequences. it does seem to be highly unlikely that we can get away with just whacking them, if you will. and everything will be okay and he said oh, i get the message. i'm not going do it again. it seems to me that our history shows when we whack people, whether we did wit saddam hussein or anyone else, they do it again. and then we have the question, will hezbollah be unleashed

against israel or worse yet. the message to tehran will be red lines don't mean nothing with this president. back to you, david. >> that's the heart of what i was writing about this morning. the president really has lost credibility clearly with syria, clearly with russia, clearly with saudi arabia. and that's a problem for any country. >> do we know that assad is mocking him? do we think assad is mad about this thing? >> all we have to do is look at people's actions. in a sense this is not an intelligence issue, but it's an open source issue. let me make one point. what our military is telling the president, what the chairman of the joint chiefs general dempsey is telling our president is you cannot think without the knock on the following consequences. you have to think about the attack on jordan. you have to think about the attack on turkey, not to mention the attack on israel. and you are to have the forces in place. we just moved an aircraft back into the mediterranean.

>> wouldn't they love to get israel and fight? >> of course they would. >> if you're syria, wouldn't you love to make this an arab versus israel fight? >> maybe some support in the region for assad that he doesn't have. getting the u.s. involved helps him in a lot of ways as well. what general dempsey says juxtaposed about what some people are saying on the op-ed about preserving credibility. it's nice to preserve credibility, but that's also an abstraction, which is the reality of getting stuck in a military situation where you have to go back and again and again and again and you get sucked in without any outcome. >> i have to admit i'm all prejudiced when it comes to this stuff. i don't have the reporting that you have to do every day. i don't want to get in the same companies as the neo cons. i don't want to be a part of people who are always more knee-jerk military action in that part of the world. a lot of people want the united states to be the main military power in the middle east. i don't. i think in the long run we'll be rejected like tissue rejection. we don't belong there. in the short-run, we're going to

make more and more enemies. people disagree with me. they say we have to be strong, muscular, and not be ashamed of our power. he says it's a better bet to stay in and be strong than to fade out and be weak. >> i don't think you need to think about, worry about being a neo con when you see what is an international norm against the use of chemical weapons being egregiously violated. you look at the pictures of those dead kids. i've read the reports from the doctors are heartbreaking. >> the people who voted for obama want him to do this? >> nobody. the polls show like 9% support for this. congress is more popular than having a military strike against syria. >> why do you think that's the case? because fatigue on war? too many wars. >> i don't know if they'll trust anybody. >> that's where we are. >> this is where we are. you can thank the neo cons in part for that. >> i do thank them. nobody trusts intelligence fbi anymore.

i always wonder. i read him. my heart is with you, my brain sometimes with him. but i will follow my heart. thank you, david. and i'm not making the call whether or not we attack syria. even at this table we can't decide that maybe we should. david ignatius, thank you, sir, a member of the legion of honor. and david corn. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

they're saying now that the war against syria will last no more than two days. they're saying -- that's what they're saying. it's going to be a two-day war. you know what that means. we'll be there for another ten years. >> wow. too much truth in that. welcome to the sideshow. that was david letterman, of course, last night on a potential u.s. strike on syria. let's hope he is wrong on that one. the u.s. marine corps held a retirement ceremony in washington yesterday for sergeant chesty xiii who is

their official mascot. he is being replaced with chesty xiv who has been training for the position since march. they say it was his dogged determination that earned him the honorary role. amongst many of the big speakers was a little one. 8-year-old robbie novak. you may know him better as kid president. the youtube sensation whose imaginative videos scored him an invite to the oval office back in april. >> i think you should try to sit behind the desk so you look a little more official. >> hello? >> nope. >> make sure not to cause an international incident. now, kid president, what grade are you in? >> third. >> third? >> uh-huh. >> third grade. how is school going? >> good. >> it's going pretty good.

because i know you got all these other activities. >> yeah. >> so much demands on your time trying to balance being president and being in the third grade. you know? that's a lot of stuff. >> uh-huh. >> but you seem to be handling it pretty well. >> very well. >> now, even though we're presidents, can we still hug? is that okay? >> yeah. >> i just want to make sure. >> well, the aspiring young politician there officially made his mark on history yesterday. here was his live debut. >> i wasn't here 50 years ago, but i hope to be in the next 50 years. we all have a duty to make sure the world keeps dreaming for better things. keep dreaming, keep dreaming, keep dreaming. >> next stop, just a week after wikileak source reveals her identity chelsea, wikileaks founder julian assange got something of a maker himself. the famous leaker appeared as an '80s pop star in a spoof video that is so far out you got to

see it to believe it. ♪ ♪ we're not going to sit in darkness, we're not going live with fear, oh, oh ♪ >> bizarro. i guess he fans himself a rock star. up next, republicans in missouri take sides with people who break the law on guns over the federal agents who arrest them. we're talking nullification here. and you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. [ man ] look how beautiful it is. ♪ honey, we need to talk. we do? i took the trash out. i know. and thank you so much for that. i think we should get

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it was very painful situation. the rash was on my right hip, going all the way down my leg. i'm very athletic and i swim in the ocean. shingles forced me out of the water. the doctor asked me "did you have chickenpox when you were a child?" the pain level was so high, it became unbearable.

we are back. file this under the category of blatantly unconstitutional. missouri republicans are trying to nullify all federal gun laws in their state, all of them. you want to buy a machine gun? go ahead. in fact, the bill goes even further. it says it would be illegal for federal agents to try to enforce any gun law in missouri. federal agents would be breaking the law themselves just by doing their job.

it is in fact the most far-reaching states rights endeavor in the country according to "the new york times." the bill passed and the legislature there's in missouri overwhelm leg in the house and the senate. all but one republican in the house in missouri voted for it. a handful of democrats joined them. democratic governor jay nixon vetoed the bill, but lawmakers will try to override it next month. well, the lone republican who voted against the measure was state representative jay barnes. he said, quote, our constitution is not some cheap chinese buffet where you get to pick the parts we like and ignore the rest. two centuries of constitutional jurisprudence shows that this bill is plainly unconstitutional. and i'm not going to violate my oath of office. well, john schwartz wrote the piece. he is national correspondent for "the new york times." and ronald reagan is an msnbc analyst. gentlemen, we talk sometimes

here about rick perry talking succession. we got people talking about ignoring a statute of the law, which is now of course the affordable care act, and acting like it's a bill, not a law. there is sort of a new disrespect for the law. and here we have it. it seems to me, john, a disrespect for the notion that the federal government has a right as the federal government to pass laws and have them enforced. >> well, what you've got is nullification, which is an attempt to simply redo the compact between the states and the federal government. the supremacy clause of the constitution says that when there is a conflict between federal and state, federal wins. and that's been around for a long time. >> because otherwise, the federal law could always be trumped? >> well, exactly right. and you don't get the interstate highway system built. and you still have laws against miscegenation in states like virginia. the law of the land is being set is a very old system. and for this country, it's worked. >> you know, ron, it doesn't

take a huge leap to follow, say, where rand paul would go with this baby. if you can basically say in missouri we don't like the gun laws of the federal government, passed by the federal government and all the states, we may not like the civil rights laws or the voting rights law. to hell with them too. what is the difference? >> that's right. we can have 50 different little countries here within -- in one jurisdiction. this is part of a larger pattern. >> swiss cheese. >> swiss cheese, exactly. it's part of a larger pattern you see. it's not just the gun issue, which is a hot button you see everywhere. you push that button and the board lights up. this is when you join wit the effort to defund obama care, for instance, and the birther nonsense about delegitimizing his presidency. what you get is republicans and conservatives who basically have said, look, if we lose an election, we'll claim that our opponent is illegitimate. if a law passes we don't like, we'll try and defund it. if that deputy work, we'll shut down the government. whatever happens, if we're losing, we're taking our ball and going home and just shutting

out the lights here. this is -- >> i'm with you. >> missouri's law may be an extreme example, but it's not the only state trying to pass laws nullifying federal gun laws. in tennessee, state senator may beavers introduced a nullification bill. according to the news site propublica, she said, quote, you think the supreme court is the ultimate arbiter of any of these laws? i don't believe that. i don't believe that. it was never granted that authority under the constitution. and just for point of clarification, here is art iii of the constitution. the judicial power of the united states shall be invested in one supreme court and in such inferior courts as the congress may establish. the judicial power shall extend all cases in law and equity. under treaties made or which shall be made under their authority. john schwartz, the constitution as written original intent up to scalia levels of originalness. and there it is. we do have marbury versus

madison and the right established under gene marshall in way back times. >> exactly right. somewhere the ghost of john calhoun is smiling. it's a cherished view of people who don't like the balance that was set in marbury versus madison that was set after the civil war. but there you have it. the states come behind the federal government on laws of this nature. >> well, let's talk about the history yesterday, ron. and you can do this as well. yesterday everyone paid tribute, everybody was there. the democrats, at least and the independents, and hollywood paid tribute to dr. martin luther king and his great speech of course included a reference to lips dripping with interposition and nullification. and here we have it in real life terms in 2013, 50 years after the speech, 150 years after the emancipation proclamation. here we have a state in missouri which is a border state saying

to hell with washington. nullify it. >> yeah, it's amazing that we sometimes seem to still be fighting the civil war, still be fighting and slogging through the civil rights era. if you look at the states, many of them that are involved in these kind of nullification efforts not just around guns, but also around obama care, you know, it's the southern states and of course the rural states up there into the high plains. and stuff too. it is extraordinary. and it's as if there is a certain segment of the population here, the political body who simply says federal government doesn't work. we'll have none of it, and we're going our own way, as if we can really do that. didn't we have a civil war once? didn't we decide this question? i think i remember that. >> it's getting more and more like the middle east. nothing is decided. we just start the fight again the next day. anyway, one democrat who voted for that bill, t.j. mckenna says he did so even though he thought the bill was unconstitutional. how is that for thinking. why did he do it? quote, i can't be mr. liberal

st. louis wanna-be. what am i supposed to do? just go against all my constituents? you can't be seen shaking hands with the president or see what happened to charlie crist, hugging him or walking the beach, look what happened to christie. you can't be seen as being from st. louis. ha! that is like the worst thing that can happen to missouri. >> you can imagine having to give up on gooey butter cake. >> john? >> i'm just saying, all the wonderful thing from st. louis, gooey butter cake and you're not going to be able to say you're for that? >> i know, i know. go ahead, ron. last word. >> if you pledged to defend the constitution of the united states, apparently if you're a conservative or republican, you're in trouble. >> my god, that's washington stuff. anyway, thank you, john schwartz. it's funny, but -- funny isn't the right word. it's sad. ronald reagan, thank you, sir,

for putting it all together. it goes together with the delegitimization of our president, to basically throw everything up in the air and basically say it's all a big debate. what is boehner doing? what is cantor doing? why are they following the craziest people instead of their brains? this is "hardball," the place for politics.

we finally have a director of the bureau of alcohol,

tobacco and firearms. todd jones was sworn in today by vice president biden. jones is the first atf director confirmed by the senate. before the year 2006, atf directors did not require senate approval. since then none has survived republican filibusters until now. there he is. we'll be right back.

the republican leadership, that would be boehner and cantor and mccarthy, they told the republican members they will not try, they will not try to defund obama care through the continuing resolution and they're content to fighting for the continuing sequestration level reductions in spending.

no more. this is your johnny boehner, ladies and gentlemen. i said several months ago -- maybe i ought to repeat this. maybe this ought to be it. rather than calling it obama care, we should call it boehner care. boehner won't even fight. is the word pathetic appropriate? i think it's appropriate. >> you must be really miserable listening to a guy like that on the rodeo. welcome back to "hardball." conservative right-wing radio show mark levin calling speaker of the house johnny, first of all and then calling him pathetic. he is also under pressure from the wild bunch in his party for potentially defaulting on the nation's debt if president obama doesn't cede to their demands in negotiations leading up to the end of the year. in other words, the fight is on now. will boehner, it seems like he wants to do it, willing to risk those who want to default. the treasury secretary jack lew, there he is, urged congress to act right away, because as our fiscal year ends, the united states will also run out of its money to pay our bills. our borrowing capacity will be

exhausted by the middle of october. the republican party wants to turn u.s. savings bonds into junk bonds, refuse to pay our bills and tell creditors to forget it. that's what we're hearing from the far right. the question is will eric cantor join people on the hard right or will they stand up to the tea party types and tell the children in their caucus that america pays its bill. joining me right now to talk about this is rick tower. he worked for newt. and joan walsh, an msnbc political analyst. welcome both. it seems to me we have a fact the federal government is rung up against its debt ceiling. according to the secretary of the treasury, and we have no other authority on this matter since october. if we decide not to extend or raise the debt ceiling, the united states will either have to not pay the people who bought savings bonds who we are told is boy scouts. this is your johnny boehner,

ladies and gentlemen. i said several months ago, maybe i ought to repeat this, and maybe this ought to be, rather than calling it obama care, call it boehner care. boehner won't even fight. boehner, he's just -- is the word pathetic appropriate? i think it's appropriate. >> he must be really miserable

>> your solution to the fiscal challenge of the country is to default? >> i think the fiscal challenge of the country is to figure out how to reduce debt and the scope of government. >> what you're saying is not what they're saying. rick, i respect you being here. thanks for coming on. what ted cruz is saying, if you don't defund a law of the land, affordable care act, obama care, i'm going to bring down the government and make sure we default. >> he has every right to pursue that strategy. i don't think you should use the word defund. >> it has been enacted into law. >> enacted into law and it hasn't been funded. we already love the argument because we're -- >> let's go to joan on this one. joan, it seems like you have to figure out who we're talking to here. who's got the gun? who's going to make the decision? boehner who says it's about spending or people on the far right, far right like ted cruz who say if you don't get rid of a program already enacted into

law by defunding it and starving it to death, we're going to default. >> chris, i think they're passing the gun around. >> pretty radical. >> i think they're passing the gun around. john boehner is talking about it this week saying we're going to have a fight over it. he's saying i have leverage now and it may be unfair, but the president is going to have to give and negotiate in order for us to do what we did 79 times to get us to raise the debt ceiling. he said that at a fund-raiser this week. maybe he's playing to the tea party whackadoo caucus. that man, himself, said it. i think it's really dangerous. >> i think boehner is a president of -- joan, i don't know about you but i wonder if he has the leverage to say no to the tea party. >> there are some things you lose your job over. maybe that job isn't good enough to have if you're going to bring down the global economy to listen to your crazy base. >> we have to go. john, i want to quote another guy here. >> the deficit is coming down faster than at any time since world war ii. deficit is coming down. we cut the deficit.

>> rick, here's an idaho fund-raiser on friday. boehner said to use the debt ceiling negotiations to gain leverage. "the president doesn't think this is fair, thinks i'm being difficult to deal with," mr. boehner said. "i'll say this, it may be unfair, but what i'm trying to do here is leverage the political process to produce more change than what it would produce if left to its own devices. we're going to have a whale of a fight." jay carney dismissed boehner's tough talk. >> let me reiterate what our position is. it is unequivocal. we will not negotiate with republicans in congress over congress' responsibility to pay the bills that congress has racked up. period. it is congress' responsibility to maintain the full faith own credit of the united states. we have never defaulted, and we must never default. that is our position.

100% full stop. >> rick, re? >> in the end you're not going to get the default, but a series of continuing resolutions to the deficit ceiling. we're going to have a grand bargain. >> in other words, it's a bluff? >> look, the speaker has every right -- >> is your side willing to default? >> you know, i don't know. >> that's the question. >> if you get to $16.7 trillion and have $100 trillion of unfunded liabilities -- >> i don't think you do this to reagan or w. >> obama's answer is just raise taxes. which is not math. >> i know. >> there's been a grand bargain on the table that speaker boehner walked away from. progressives are not happy with it. this president has put things on the table that are anathema to a lot of democrats and can't find a partner to negotiate with. >> thank you, joan walsh, were coming on. thank you, rick, for coming on. i'm sorry. we'll be right back. you're watching "hardball." the place for politics. too big.

too small. too soft. too tasty. [ both laugh ] [ male announcer ] introducing progresso's new creamy alfredo soup. inspired by perfection.

let me finish tonight with this baby. we love the story of king solomon and two women claiming to be the mother of the same baby. the king solomon solution he told them was to cut the baby in half. we know how that turned out. the woman who protested that situation and said to give the baby to the other was the true mother, the one who thought cutting the baby in half was the perfectly fair solution was not the true mother obviously. that's what we call a solomon-like solution. what cares about the success of effective self-government in this country and having a federal government that is credible which pays its bills that can be counted on when you

buy a savings bond, for example, or when someone in the world invests in u.s. treasury? who cares about keeping alive that credibility? how ask yourself who does not. who's willing to let that credibility be killed or seriously damaged in order to score an ideological point? who's willing to throw the credibility of the united states into the gaming table at a partisan contest of who will blink? the simple undeniable fact is this. reason the new hard right wing in this country is ready for this country to risk fiscal de fault to become the world's number one deadbeat, it doesn't give a damn weather government is downgraded. it prefers an every man for himself world where libertarian has as much power as the american people united together in self-government. if there was an explanation for this, would someone please give it to me? that's "hardball." thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now.

good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. tonight on "all in" after days of ratcheting up the rhetoric to intervene in syria, our congress and tonight the british parliament is saying not so fast. that in a moment. also tonight, fast food workers in 60 cities across the country spent the day on strike, protesting to raise their wage, shutting down some fast food restaurants. we'll talk to a u.s. congress person who joined the workers on the picket line today. plus, my interview with mayor cory booker who's running for u.s. senate. he responds to contemptible attacks on his personal life by his republican opponent. you definitely want to stay tuned for that. we begin tonight with the momentum toward a u.s. military intervention in syria grinding to a halt and now reversing at breakneck speed. just two days ago military strikes on syrian targets were al but inevitable. tonight that is ly