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we thought would be huge. producer natalie has tweets. >> brian, i have two words for you, pet rock. >> pet rock. by the way mine was easy, the flip cam. we had to have it. the best way to take videos and get it to everybody. six months later it was out of business. we're not out of business. we have to get to "morning joe" right now. >> yesterday the obama white house laid out their case for intervention in syria, the goals of which ultimately are quite simple. >> the goal is a negotiated solution which results in the departure of assad and result of free syrian people for their future. >> it's simple. assad leaves willingly, democratic syria is stable and peaceful. thousands of lives are saved and elizabeth bennett marries mr. dorsey and they all live happily

ever after. it's unicorns and rainbows. >> good morning. it is thursday, september 5th. welcome to "morning joe." with us on set we have msnbc and "time" magazine senior political analyst mark halperin. >> what? >> national -- >> his beard. >> what is that? >> oh, my god. how long has he been gone? >> long enough to grow this. >> big fan of halperin? >> in the cave and just woke up. >> i think it might work. i don't know. scary. >> three hours to figure it out. >> oh. okay. national affairs editor for "new york" magazine and msnbc political analyst john heilemann. he's here too. >> he looks the same. >> yeah. >> and msnbc's thomas roberts. >> hi, mika. welcome back. >> glad to have you on. >> i feel like i'm sitting next to my favorite political science teacher. >> or your uncle. >> what is this? >> the most interesting man in the world. those commercials.

>> that's what he is. >> that's mark mckinnon. >> that's true. >> and in washington, washington anchor for bbc world news america, katty kay. and it doesn't end there if you can believe it. >> i can't believe this. >> what else could we have? >> former governor of vermont and former chairman of the democratic national committee, howard dean. >> good lord. >> great panel this morning. wow. and a lot to talk about. >> president obama is on a collision course with russian president vladimir putin. the president says he will continue to engage his russian counterpart at the g-20 summit on syria though they've, quote, hit a wall. the group will have working sessions and dinner later tonight. the pleasantries have begun. putin called out secretary kerry, accusing him of, quote, lying and he knows that he is lying. this is sad. putin was referring to testimony where secretary kerry downplayed al qaeda's role within the syrian opposition but as calls for an international coalition to strike syria grow, president

obama is resisting the claim that the red lines syria is accused of crossing are his alone. >> first of all, i didn't set a red line. the world set a red line. the world set a red line when governments representing 98% of the world's population said, the use of chemical weapons are abore hadn't and passed a treaty forbidding their use even when countries are engaged in war. congress set a red line when it ratified that treaty. my credibility is not on the line. the international community's credibility is on the line and america and congress' credibility is on the line because we give lip service to the notion that these international norms are important. >> meanwhile -- >> i mean his credibility is so on the line. of course -- >> yes. >> he pulls the united states of america with him.

because he's commander in chief. but he is the one during a campaign that created the red line. he said it twice. he framed it and set a red line and said if you cross it -- >> back to that -- >> there are going to be consequences. there have been other countries that have used chemical weapons against their people and we haven't responded to it. the president also, grizzly adams, when he said assad must go, he made it quite clear, if i knew more grizzly adams, i would say as clear as when lilibu went to the valley and hooked a bass in the street with a shotgun in the left hand. but the president also when he said assad must go, you know, dr. brzezinski, who has been against a syria intervention for, you know, years now, when he said assad must go. you set yourself up. you draw another red line. but this is his default

position. mubarak must go. gadhafi must go. assad must go. he's backed america, in my opinion, he's backed america into a corner and now he can't flippantly say i had nothing to do with this. i was sitting around smoking a cigarette and is suddenly we're in a position we have to go to war. that's ridiculous. >> what he said yesterday and what we showed, i think is obvious remarkable intellectual sympathy for his point. but as the commander in chief at a time when he's trying to live up to his red line, i think what he said yesterday is going to be picked over for years to come as people trace the president's relationship to america's role if the world and its importance in shaping it. there are no great outcomes right now, but he's god to lead and the statement that he made yesterday trying to share the burden with congress, share it with other countries, again, great intellectual sympathy for that but as commander in chief right now, that was a questionable statement. >> he's commander in chief right

now. john, he drew the lines. whether he wants to say he drew the lines or not. and then he sent out his secretary of state to make a strong statement on friday and then on saturday he undercut his secretary of state, so we're going to go to congress and doesn't require that, of course. there's no constitutional requirement that he goes to congress for an immediate strike. delays it. i must say, this is -- this is some of the most baffling commander in chief leadership i've ever seen in my life. >> i don't even have as much intellectual sympathy as mark does. you're not a neutral player here to take the position that you want to have congress' approval to do this, especially given a public that is largely opposed to the notion, seems to me would be a totally credible position. you're not a neutral player putting something on the table and say let's discuss it if

you're for it, i'm for it, if you're against it i'm against it. if you say we should do this you should fight for it and you can call that leadership or call it fighting for principle, whatever it is, but he's the one that's putting this forward. it is on him now to get it through the congress, it's on him to get it -- to rally the world community around it. he's the one that's proposing this thing and, therefore, whether you want to call it credibility on the line or not, this is a thing you must take ownership of and now put your entire shoulder into it to get it done because you presumably believe it is the right thing to do. >> right. but howard dean, there is support that you're hearing in congress. you know, we can focus on the red line comments and that's a very legitimate debate as to whether or not he should have said that, but at this point, we're looking at what's happening in syria and there appears to be support for action. >> yeah. i think we've engaged in this conversation in a little bit of what i would call washington hooey. >> give me a break, howard.

>> give me a break. >> it is washington hooey. >> save it for somebody else. you're on the wrong show. >> let's get to the -- we have a long show. let's get to the knitty gritty of what's going on here. what are we to do? the first assumption you have to make, question you have to ask is, do we belong in syria? is there a reason for us to go in? some people say it's none of our business. i say when kids are getting killed, it's always our business and the next question is what can we do about it? the fact of the matter is, i was very happy to criticize the president when he did health care reform. i know a lot about it. i've had a lot more experience about it than probably most the people that wrote the bill. in this situation, the president of the united states is the only person who knows all the facts except for a few of his advisors. he's got to make a really tough decision. i think that decision -- and i think he did the right thing going to congress and now he's got to make a decision. what are the alternatives? one, sanctions, we probably do them already. two, you could try to envelope syria in the mess that iran is

in terms of our banking structures. my guess is that won't work, but i don't know. three, is some sort of armed intervention. i give the president the right to make this decision. you can criticize him all you want but he has to make this tough decision. i think he's done the right thing going to congress because this is an american people's decision. we need to have a public debate and that is what we're having. what my concern about the first five minutes of this conversation is, why are we having a washington type discussion about what the president said when they said it. why don't we debate the merits of whether we ought to be going into syria or not? >> we are here because of what he said. words have consequences. when you have the president of the united states -- he's not a passive actor. you want theto talk about washington hooey -- >> we have a big dilemma in syria and give him the ability to make that decision. >> when the president says two times that assad can't cross a red line or else and then assad crosses the red line, when the

president says, assad must go, when the president has his own chairman of the joint chiefs against him, and then is misstating what the chairman of the joint chiefs says in private conversations, so much so that the chairman of the joint chiefs comes out and says so, when the chairman of the joint chiefs says there are absolutely no good options in syria, and yet, we are still stuck in a position where if we don't go to syria, guess what? the commander in chief -- let. >> joe -- >> let me finish my sentence. >> the commander in chief's credibility is not only on the line the united states of america credibility is on the line and that's not just a message that is sent to assad and syria, that is a message that is sent to the mullahs in iran who are not developing chemical weapons, they're developing nuclear bombs. >> okay. so my view is, why don't we discuss the merits instead of playing the blame game which so often goes on inside the beltway. >> howard, why did you play the

blame game when you ran for president? you're trying to figure out what the situation is and what the problem is. and if the president -- and you talk about health care, let's go to katty kay -- >> joe, wait a minute. look, i play the blame game when we went to iraq because i didn't think the facts supported the president's conclusion. >> okay. just five minutes ago -- >> i didn't attack the president because he was -- >> you said, howard, and we'll get beyond this, five minutes ago you said you know what, the president knows more than we do. we really need to trust him to make this tough decision. you sound just like paul wolfowitz in 2002. don't ever trust that the president has more information than we do and that we can't sit back and be baffled by this man trying to pretend that he is a passive actor on the world stage when he is the one that has framed the outlines of this debate and has put us in the position we're in. >> so let's talk about -- if we

want to criticize the president for his decision, which i think is legitimate, there are other people's ideas out there that are very good, let's have a debate on the merits of what we ought to do and not play the washington blame game. this doesn't help. >> i don't even know -- >> we're focused on red line. >> dr. dean, i agree with you. >> figure out who he looks like. he looks like harrison ford's character in "the fugitive." when you said dr. dean -- >> not bad. >> it was the one armed man. >> yeah, the one armed man. >> one armed man -- >> dr. -- >> harrison ford's character. >> you say he should be looking for the one arm man. >> looking for the one arm man. >> i'll take that. >> you were the one arm man, the fugitive. >> no. harrison ford was not the one arm man. >> he's not the one arm man. >> he looks like harrison ford. >> i want to go to katty kay -- >> university of alabama graduate. and cheerleader. richard kimble. you're dr. richard kimble.

>> you do look like a doctor. >> i'll take that. can i ask dr. dean a question. >> then katty. >> dr. dean, i totally agree. the focus should be on children have been killed, international norm violated. i agree that's where the focus is. here's where i think you're miss ug the piece we were discussing that i don't think is inside washington, which is the president has to lead. there's a shocking lack of interest in upholding this violation of accepted international norm on the part of our allies and members of congress. only one person now can get the country and the world to focus on what needs to be done and that person yesterday said, this isn't really on me. that to me is not an inside washington. it's a question of, these strikes are going to happen, i'm almost certain, then what happens? then we need the president of the united states to lead the aftermath and what he did yesterday, i think, is going to make it harder to lead that aftermath. that's why i don't think if you care about the children who were killed and the violation of an international accepted norm, that's why yesterday i think mattered a lot and is not about

inside washington. >> well, okay. so we're going to agree to disagree on this one. next. >> let's move on. meanwhile in washington the senate resolution authorizing the use of force narrowly passed its first committee. democrat senator ed markey voted saying he wanted to do more analysis. >> come on, ed! >> and one significant revision added for senator john mccain -- >> wait. one of his major -- the first major vote and ed votes present. >> come on, ed. >> he's going to study more. >> mccain calls for, quote, changing the military equation on the battlefield. the obama administration has said it is not seeking a change in the balance of power with military action. secretary kerry had a tough time selling the plan on capitol hill. one of the more heated exchanges came when republican representative jeff duncan pressed john kerry on benghazi. >> the same administration that was seemingly so quick to involve the u.s. in syria, now,

was reluctant to use the same resources at its disposal to attempt to rescue the four brave americans that fought for their lives in benghazi. mr. kerry, you have never been one that has advocated for anything other than caution when involving u.s. forces in past conflicts. the same is true for the president and the vice president. is the power of the executive branch so intoxicating that you would abandon past caution in favor for pulling the trigger on a military response so quickly? >> let me begin, congressman, by challenging your proposition that i've never done anything except advocate caution because i volunteered to fight for my country and that wasn't a cautious thing to do when i did it. >> mr. secretary -- with all due respect -- >> i'm going to finish. when i was in the united states senate, i supported military action in any number of

occasions. including grenada, panama, i can run a list of them. we're talking ate people being killed by gas and you want to talk about benghazi and fast and furious. >> absolutely want to talk about benghazi because four americans lost their lives. >> katty kay, this is thomas roberts. obviously a wild one to watch yesterday, but as we know from 2002, these authorization votes will live forever and for years and years to come and that's what ed markey and others like him are playing politics with. with him just saying, present, okay, he's present and accounted for but not on the record. >> right. which is probably why rubio voted no, right? he's looking at this and thinking of 2016 and how is this going and faced with questions, either directly parrots the talking points handed to her by senator chuck schumer or she babels incoherently and stares blankly into the camera as though she's a freshman in high school, struggling to remember the cliff notes after forgetting to read her homework assignment.

they say you can't be something with nothing. but alison lundergan grimes seems determined to test that theory and here is the final line here. she is an empty dress. >> i doubt your viewers know who brad dayspring is. he has a reputation for being a mischief maker. where he probably got his team in trouble on this one, is that republicans are desperately trying to find ways to win women voters. they do well with white men. don't do well with any segment outside of white men in kentucky and other states. last thing they need to do is give the other side, give the opposition a chance to say look you're saying more things that are offensive to women. i don't know that he regrets it. i'm sure some republicans regret he had that to say. these guys are ruthless when trying to win re-election. the mcconnell mentality, tear down your opponent, do it effectively. he has a tough race and the dayspring comments reflect that

mentality. >> mika -- >> careful running against a women. >> always careful running against a woman. >> i wonder, a man can be called an empty suit. >> that's fine. >> a woman can't be called an empty dress. >> just saying. don't you agree. >> i'm just asking. i've never heard the expression before and so -- >> i don't know if that's -- >> i think that's -- >> howard dean, if that's washington hooey or not. i can just say from seeing her at a few events she certainly didn't seem to be empty headed. >> we'll see. all right. jim, thank you so much. >> take care. we'll see you later. >> coming up, johnny manziel gets in trouble for signing a few autographs while the university he plays for makes millions off his talent. is it time to pay our college athletes? that's the subject of a "time" cover. up next the red sox clobber the tigers at fenway in a potential

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38 red hut hut. come on, guys. you know what to do. there you go. looks like -- it's an even game. it's a tight game so far. ravens, it's a tight game and two wanderers. looks like the -- the broncos have it! right there. >> they have it. we have a winner. the denver broncos will win the first nfl game of the year. >> they're so cute. >> what a cheap stud. cute animals. >> oh, my goodness. >> ratings grabber. >> the nfl season kicks off, baltimore ravens taking on the broncos and my wes welker. denver, of course, lost, dramatic loss to the ravens in the playoffs. coverage at 7:30 p.m. eastern time. >> good night last night. tell you something, barnicle and i at the beginning of the year were predicting how many wins

the sox would get, hard to predict they would get over -- >> did you pick? >> i think i was 82 and barnicle was 85. the fact they're doing this well in september, is stunning. >> yeah. >> and i still -- i am still kind of a nonbeliever but they are legit. take a look at last night. the tigers some say the most talented team in the american league. the red sox hit a franchise tying 8 home runs. will middlebrooks hit a grand slam, big papi, david ortiz, two home runs, and his 2,000th career hit. 20-4. i don't like running a score up on a team you might face later. >> we like detroit. >> we don't like the tigers though. i say run the score up. >> as we did. take a look at the catch in the fourth. shane victorino, into foul territory to make a grab. after the play helps a woman --

he'll pick up her cell phone. people picked him up. help out with the cell phone. watch the woman in the back there. you see what happened? right there. some guy is cheering, i do the know what he was doing, but he slapped a beer in her face. >> good thing she had the by focals on. >> i kid. >> i love fenway. >> fenway is fantastic. >> nothing better than the smell of stale beer. >> seriously we all have to go to a game. >> definitely. >> all right. still ahead on "morning joe," the man behind the wildly popular jack reacher novels which were recently made into a major motion picture starring tom cruise. lee child joins us with his latest installment in the series. up next, must-read opinion pages. don't go away. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." ♪

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live look at the white house. 47 past the hour. time for the must-read opinion pages. "the new york times" editorial board. they say in part this, the administration is still committed to establishing peace and avoiding a complete collapse of the syrian state which could result in even greater chaos. it's not clear that there is a strategy to accomplish that. administration officials have also been vague about the extent of international support for punishing syria. mr. kerry said 34 nations have indicated that they would support some form of action against syria if the claims of chemical weapons use are true. but he declined to give details. at a minimum, there should be severe international condemnation of mr. assad's slaughter of millions at the gathering of the group of 20 nations in st. petersburg, russia. since the meeting's host is

president sclp, mvladimir putin assad's arms supplier, even that may be unlikely. let's talk about the ramifications if we could of inaction beyond the obvious moral issues at stake. >> i do think we're in this slightly odd position and it's not the best position to take action from, where inaction may at this point be more dangerous for america than action. i think the risks to american credibility, having set this red line, and then if we just blow through that and don't do anything, i think it will be perceived as weakness around the world. i think it sends a very bad message to iran, that that's a very important factor here. america says it has red lines and you can't cross them and they've said you can't develop a nuclear weapon in tehran, but actually the message to the iranian mullahs are they're not going to do anything even if we

do. i think inaction sends a kind of signal to the region to israel that america is not necessarily going to stand by its closest ally in the middle east. so those are not the best reasons to act from. i really don't think they are. i think there has to be a more considered strategy for syria, longer term. there has to be a clearer plan articulated about what happens the day after these strikes. because we know the assad regime will line up dead bodies in hospitals and say these are the victims of u.s. aggression, this is what happened when you launched your tomahawk missiles. innocent civilians got killed. we all need to be more confident that the white house is fully prepared for that. >> exactly. that is the importance of having a strong leader, a strong commander in chief. it has a very clear vision of why we're going in somewhere, what's the trigger point for bringing those people home and when those images come up, the president can clearly explain not only to americans but to the world, why the military strikes were necessary and unfortunately

we have a president running away from his own line in the sand as quickly as possible. katty, i want to follow up with a question with you, though, that keeps coming back. yesterday it was from a source deep inside the intel community. saying it makes no sense that assad would have used chemical weapons. these people have been studying assad for years. john kerry met assad five times. you have a lot of members of congress that are comparing him to hitler and saying this is a munich moment, that even back in 2008, 2009, were saying we feed to be more open to assad. it makes no sense, this intel person was telling me yesterday, that assad would use chemical weapons on his own people. he knew it was suicide. he said, i don't know who did do

it. it may have been a colonel down the line. but our own intel community and the reason i'm just bringing this up is, we've got to stop -- just for one second and ask these questions. our own intel community is saying it wasn't a slam dunk that it was assad that ordered these strikes. i'm wondering, this init tell source of mine says, it sounds a lot like 2002. we're all rushing in to war and he said, i would not be surprised at all if a year from now we found out it wasn't assad, who ordered these chemical weapons. this sounds crazy, but i keep hearing it from the intel community, skeptical that if you believe that even barbarics tyrants act in an irrational manner to preserve their life and power, it makes no sense. the man that had at the ability to kill 100,000 civilians would cross the red line and fire

chemical weapons knowing it was going to draw an international response. >> yeah. the parallels of 2002 are kind of creepy, aren't they, joe? the amount to which we don't really know what's going on and i think it's why people should absolutely be asking questions about all of the intelligence, when the administration says that 1429 people were killed, how exactly did they get that number? they still haven't told us yet. it's a far higher number than doctors without borders, for example, had been reporting just a couple of days earlier. we need more specifics on where that intelligence came from. and we still haven't had it yesterday. several people have said to me assad has not just used chemical weapons once, but they have documented video, testimonials from witnesses, samples taken from people who were affected that actually this has happened on several occasions. now, why would he do this? the only answer, if he feels his back is up against the wall. he is playing everything to stay in power here. if he feels that the rebels were

making incremental progress in trying to take damascus, he may have decided he had to use chemical weapons and then after the chemical weapons, which kind of went under reported, he launched a big conventional weapons strike against those rebel held areas. that's been a pattern of behavior. launch a chemical weapon and go in with your conventional artillery and take back that area of ground. that may have been what happened in this case mands have been it went slightly wrong and it was bigger. one thing we know and we've had bbc team reporting on the ground. he's been using napalm on school grounds. our team was there when a napalm was dropped on a schoolyard. hundreds of children were taken to a hospital where their bodies were burned. we know that's happening. it's not inconceivable to make the conclusion he could have used chemical weapons as well. >> still ahead on "morning joe," director of the aspen institute, walter isaacson joins us. also ahead this morning, anthony weiner goes toe to toe with

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all right. howard dean, thanks for your political beliefs. >> pure political hooey, howard. >> always good to have hooey on the program. >> how do you think the vote goes at the end? >> i think if the vote were held today, the president would not

get his way. >> yeah. >> that's what we're hearing. all right. howard, thanks very much. >> thank you. >> still ahead on "morning joe," former director of the cia and nsa, general michael hayden will join us. but first walter isaacson joins the set with chuck todd, live from st. petersburg, russia. more "morning joe" in just a moment. now, would you go? man: 'oh i can't go tonight' woman: 'i can't.' hero : that's what expedia asked me. host: book the flight but you have to go right now. hero: (laughs) and i just go? this is for real right? this is for real? i always said one day i'd go to china, just never thought it'd be today. anncr: we're giving away a trip every day. download the expedia app and your next trip could be on us. expedia, find yours.

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there. >> that's very nice, in front of children. that's very nice. >> you're disgusting. >> it takes one to know one. >> we'll have a discussion. come back in here. i'm not afraid of you. >> don't use language in front of -- >> you have a nerve to walk around in public -- >> and you're a perfect person? you're my judge? what rabbi taught you that you're my judge. >> you're fine. talk to god and work out your problems. stay out of the public eye. >> that's not for you to judge. i don't take my judgment from you and i don't judge you. >> happy rosh hashanah, everybody. >> that's fantastic. >> welcome back to "morning joe." that was -- >> that's first of all anthony weiner perfectly within his rights to go after a guy that makes a slur against his wife. >> yes. but just don't lower yourself. >> i actually love the line.

what rabbi taught you that? what rabbi taught you, you're my judge? again. >> mark halperin and john heilemann are still -- >> you're not? >> i just -- you know, let's just leave it. let's just leave it, right. let's leave it in the -- >> okay. >> katty kay in washington as well and here with us ceo of the aspen institute, walter isaacson, his biography of steve jobs comes out in paperback next week and great to have you back an the table. >> new york politics, because chuck todd says, new york is the center of the universe and nothing else matters, i don't know that i agree with chuck todd on that front. you got -- looks like de blasio is -- >> oh, yes. >> first of all, de blasio, our own reverend al is actually making headlines for not coming out and endorsing thompson. it's seen as a dis. look at the numbers, eliot spitzer in the fight for his life. >> that's interesting. >> what's happening? richard kimble? dr. richard kimble. >> please.

>> de blasio has a big lead and there's not much time left here. just a few days for the other candidates to figure out how to keep him not just from finishing first in the primary but winning without a runoff. spitzer will be hurt if de blasio does well. a lot of de blasio support will go with scott stringer. >> i agree with everything he said. >> let's get to syria. the future of the senate plan to strike syria remains in question. according to the "washington post" more than half of all have yet to decide on how they will vote. of the house members the post is tracking more than 170 are leaning no or against a strike outright. so things are -- >> i see as far as the vote count goes, walter you have for the president, worth of all worlds. you've got democrats that are telling me, if i support the president, i'm going to be primaried in 2014, i've got conservative republicans telling

me my phone calls are running 400 to 1. >> they will be primaried too if they support him. >> and if i vote for this, for the president's plan, i'll be primaried on the right. i've not seen a vote quite like this where moveon.org and heritage led by jim demint are on the same side and the base is on the left and the base is on the right, are going to punish, punish members for supporting the president. >> what makes it particularly bad it's a really important vote. >> it is. >> not just, you know, some small thing like the federal budget. this is our entire national security and it would be horrible for america, for national security, if the president wants to do this and congress votes it down. it's a bad situation. >> can we show the clip of what the president said earlier that was baffling to all of us. the president starts out, sending john kerry out john

kerry makes a strong statement, cameron is running around telling everybody the strike is imminent. the next day he undercuts kerry, his secretary of state. i think i'll send it to congress. then yesterday, he's over in sweden and he seems about as detached from it as i said earlier as a news anchor reading the news at the "news hour." take a look at what he said. >> first of all, i didn't set a red line. the world set a red line. the world set a red line when governments representing 98% of the world's population said, the use of chemical weapons are abhorrent and passed a treaty forbidding their use, even when countries are engaged in war. congress set a red line when it ratified that treaty. my credibility is not on the line. the international community's credibility is on the line.

and america and congress' credibility is on the line because we give lip service to the notion that these international norms are important. >> okay. i guess first of all, walter, do you think it's important to strike? >> i do think that now, you're boxed into it. i think it would have been great had we been able to avoid getting entangled in syriap. it was not in our national interests. >> do you think we should strike syr syria? >> not just the red line comment. i think obama is right that everybody drew a red line. i think had he's wrong, he drew a red line too. both of them did. but we have a moral thing. you heard katty kay talking about napalm. i believe the intelligence, i know there's some doubt on it, if there's some doubt, no, we shouldn't strike. but i believe it. it's a shame. this is a messy situation. we would have been much better off letting syria continue to sort out instead of us engaging

but at a certain point when somebody uses chemical weapons, that's where we draw lines. >> look at both sides, mark halperin. if you strike syria, with the reasons for it, would be what? just the moral reasons or potential that a country using chemical weapons on its people could spread in the region? what are the reasons to strike? >> the only reason to do it is american credibility and more reality to say a leader cannot do this. i think the aftermath, there's no good outcome. a strike will have huge backlash in the region. i think you do a limited strike, which is what's being talked about and then assad uses more chemical weapons. i think it's, without the support of the arab league, i think a strike, as mucmuch as t line has been drawn is not a good idea unless you're willing to go all the way and invade the country. >> the problem is, though, we've seen this coming, walter, for a year. year and a half. we were talking about 20,000 syrians killed. and then we were talking about

40,000 syrians killed. and by last fall it was up to 50,000 and people were saying, we really need to help the rebels. because at that time, there still were sane forces there that could have replaced assad in damascus. a lot of people don't realize, you know, people in damascus actually were, before this started, fairly pro-american. >> right. >> even if the leaders weren't. >> absolutely. >> we now have, though, two years later, over 100,000 killed, chemical weapons being used, and a refugee crisis that's destabilizing some of our top allies in the region. i don't know how we just turn our back on this crisis after the red lines have been drawn, after the president says assad must go, after two years later, 100,000 killed, after -- after, you know, the president has sent his secretary of state out

saying we are going to take strong action. for the president, just go back into the corner and cower, since su sends a horrific message to the world and iran. >> you need to figure out what the strategic interests are and those haven't been explained well. you're not going to have a strategic interest now where you're just trying to topple assad and hope the good guys, which won't happen, take over. you certainly don't want an al qaeda-backed forces with chemical weapons. and that's what happens if you do regime change. regime change doesn't seem to me to be our strategic interests. we have a particular strategic interest in saying at a certain point, there's a crime against humanity when using chemical weapons against your own people. so you have a tricky balance here of how do you do something to try to retaliate against that. i think if you get to mr. halperin's bad scenario, which is if you do some sort of

strike, and then he continues to use chemical weapons, unfortunately you don't have a choice, it seems to me, other than to get -- and you know, a force in there which may take, you know, ten units, ten weeks or seven units seven weeks, to go and get as many of those chemical weapons as you can take out. >> and what constitutes in 2013 crimes against humanity, if much less was done in kosovo? >> yeah. >> much less done in bosnia. chemical weapons weren't used and yet the entire washington establishment marched lock, stock and barrel into bosnia and kosovo and said even without the united nations, this was so important, that if we didn't do it, it would be another munich. >> there's one huge difference between that and this. which is, the passage of time and the iraq war. >> right. >> i mean, there is a -- over the -- cast over this entire

debate we're having now, from especially among the democrats who were reluctant about supporting the president on capitol hill, is the precedent of what happened in 2002, 2003. it's all everybody is talking about. it's fascinating because you have democrats who generally want to support the president because they are supportive of him, think he's a great leader, et cetera, on this issue they are talking about him in a way that is so colored by what george w. bush did and they talk about barack obama, can -- you know, can we give him this authority? can we really trust him? do we trust the intelligence? if we open this door will we end up in a longer, more protracted conflict? it's amazing how much the credibility of the executive has been undermined on the left and the right by what happened ten years ago. >> it's been framed, mika, by the past ten years. that was exactly my point. crimes against humanity are crimes against humanity. no matter what the facts are of the past year or past ten years. >> okay. and now let's look at what's ahead here, in russia, president

obama is on a collision course with russian president vladimir putin. the president says he will continue to engage his russian counterpart at the g-20 summit on syria. although they've, quote, hit a wall. the group will have working sessions and even dinner later tonight. the pleasantries have begun. putin yesterday called out secretary kerry, accusing him of, quote, lying and he knows that he's lying. this is sad. putin was referring to testimony where secretary kerry downplayed al qaeda's role within the syrian opposition. let's go now live to st. petersburg, russia, for the g-20 summit. nbc news chief white house correspondent and political director and host of "the daily rundown" chuck todd with more on the awkward interchanges to come between obama and putin. chuck? >> well, mika, first of all, i'm live four seconds behind. >> yeah. >> we have to remember that. joe loves the delay on the -- on

these trips. but, you know, what's unlikely to happen is you're not going to see an obama/putin meeting. i think a couple days ago there were thoughts they would maybe have an unofficial pull aside which is diplomatic speak for the two of them may have a 10 or 15-minute conversation on the margins, again another diplomatic summit speak. that seems unlikely to happen for a couple reasons. neither side has reached out to the other at this point. putin does have to play host, so that means he's got 18 other world leaders to worry about. and so he may not have time, is the official line from the u.s. on this stuff. but you'll see a handshake, you'll see them at dinner. there's a large are story here, which is as divided as congress appears to be, you know, the president's not going to find a whole bunch of supporters for this syrian strike at the g-20. you start looking at it, and there's france, there's the uk, there's it turkey, saudi arabia. but you look at some of these

other countries, not just russia for this, china is not for this, brazil is not for this. so you start looking at these other countries and they're not going to see -- the president is going to see that the world is as skeptical about this as the folks he's dealing with back in congress. >> chuck, it's katty here in washington. when you and i went to the briefing on saturday at the white house, it was quite clear that they don't see this as a humanitarian intervention. they're not talking about the moral case for helping the syrian people and all of the syrians who have been affected. this is specifically about chemical weapons. is that an argument perhaps that the world will listen to? even if they think that it's been presented fuzzily? isn't there a case to be made we cannot allow countries to use chemical weapons? >> well, you would -- i think what they're struggling with and admit is a struggle is the rhetoric about chemical weapons from john kerry, the president, chuck hagel, about the need to

prevent this, doesn't match the military plan that's in place. right? they don't seem to be able to guarantee that whatever military strike is launched, is going to be preventing assad from ever doing this again. they think it's most likely that that's the case. they assume -- they believe that the strikes will be so debilitating to assad's military industrial complex that he won't want to risk using it again, but because the plan doesn't match the rhetoric, i think that that's where there's been a little bit of a divide. what the obama folks will argue is, if the -- the only way you can guarantee that he would not use chemical weapons is essentially go and seize it and the only way to seize this chemical weapons is to put boots on the ground and, of course, that's a nonstarter. to go pick up on your point on the humanitarian issue, you're right. they didn't make that. nancy pelosi, though, is making the humanitarian case because

she thinks it's the best way to convince some of her more liberal members in the democratic house -- in the democratic side of the house who all got elected on an anti-war platform but can be tugged at on humanitarian cases. >> chuck todd, thank you so much. walter stay with us if you can. still ahead on "morning joe," universities and businesses are making millions off college athletes. so why not let them get paid? that's the subject of this week's new "time" cover. we'll have the reveal straight ahead on "morning joe." up next, former director of the cia and the nsa, general michael hayden will join us. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. with the spark miles card from capital one, bjorn earns unlimited rewards for his small business. take these bags to room 12 please. [ garth ] bjorn's small business earns double miles

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to execute this mission is not time sensitive. it will be effective tomorrow or

next week or one month from now. >> how are you supposed to get behind that? i mean i have a crack graphics department upstairs ready to make a sizzling title sequence like america at war or desert storm or showdown in the gulf. but thanks to obama this is the best they could do. >> cris-ish in syria. >> okay. here with us now from capitol hill, former director of the cia and nsa and now principle of the chertoff group global advising firm, michael hayden back on the show with us. >> good morning. >> let's get you on the record first of all, should the u.s. act strongly and if one does that, can it realistically be promised no boots on the ground? >> yeah. i think first thing, mika, i divide the syria problem into two groups, the little syria problem the use of chemical

weapons and then the big syria problem, what to do about the dissolution of a major state in the arab world. this is about the little syria problem. and frankly here i think we do need to act for some of the reasons that's already been suggested this morning. american credibility, raw morality and we can do it without boots on the ground and being effective. >> so much made of the red line comments and rephrasing of the red line comments. had the president not said that, would you still say we should be acting? do the comments make a difference? >> they do make a difference. they put the prestige of our president, the prestige of the credibility of the united states of america at risk. i think it was an unwise comment when he made it about a year ago. but it has consequences. it has put us on the line that we would act in the face of these kinds of actions and there are a lot of audiences for this, not just the syrians. >> what i'm saying sir, if he hadn't said it would we still be

in a position we would have to consider acting now given the gravity of the situation in syria? >> we would be in a position where we would have to consider acting but i think we would have given ourselves a bit more space, mika, to begin to build an international coalition and not to feel that we would have to act unilaterally if necessary. that's where we are. >> if the president asked your advice on two questions, one what would the most effective kind of air strikes be and two, what should he be worried about in the aftermath of air strikes? >> first thing about the effectiveness of the air strike. we talk about degrading and deterring syrian use of chemical weapons in the future. an mark, it's about the deterring. we'll degrade a little bit, but fundamentally we're not going to affect his ability to do this. we want to affect his head. we want to affect his willingness to do this. so we need to keep some aspects of the regime's infrastructure at risk.

it was an ill-chosen phrase when the president said this is a shot across the bow. we need to put a couple rounds in the wheelhouse and have the threat that we have the ability we could put some rounds at the waterline as well. now, with regard to what could happen afterwards, as i said, we're doing this to show our resolve. there are some other actors here, syria, especially iran, maybe hezbollah, that will want to show resolve too. we're going to show they can't get away with this ax sln. they're going to want to show after we act that these kinds of actions on our part, are not cost free. we should expect some kind of response from them. >> general, you talked about the big problem and the little problem in syria. so make the link between those two problems. if the administration gets its way and goes ahead in the way you've described, what's the impact on the big problem by solving to the extent it's soluble, the little problem? >> yeah. first of all, acting, it's not

certain that we solve even the little problem. this could fail. and i think quite -- with great certainty on my part, i think no one in the american military uniform is going to suggest what we're proposing to do now here will have a great affect on the big problem. it's been interesting watching the debate in congress because what senator mccain and a few others are trying to do is drag the discussion of the little problem to the big problem. that's why he amended the resolution yesterday and unfortunately, i think secretary of state kerry has an absolutely solid case on the little problem. the syrians did this. we know this. the government did it. but he's trying to draw the discussion a bit in this debate into the big problem. yesterday he said the syrian opposition is becoming more inclusive, more moderate, more democratic, and more powerful. i think i'm kind of from missouri on all those attributes right now. >> joe? >> general, general dempsey

outlined his positions on these options in the letter, obviously, to congress. he continues quietly and not so quietly to talk about there being no good military options. each one would cost over $1 billion. each one is riddled with problems. he is -- he will do what the president of the united states tells him to do and even though he was misquoted by the president -- all the president's men in a secure briefing where he said, whether we attack this week or in the future it doesn't matter, he actually said we will be ready, though he was misquoted, it sounds like he may be in the same position you're in. the president's words have backed us into this corner, there are no really good options, but the worst option is doing absolutely nothing. >> joe, that's a sad state of affairs, but i think that's correct and that's why i reluctantly would support

congress supporting this and the president ultimately acting. general dempsey has been very careful in these discussions with the hill, not to overpromise what military action might accomplish. >> katty kay? >> general, i mean you've outlined a fairly sorry case and i think a lot of people support it and it looks like there probably will be a strike against syria, given that we want it to be limited, what does success look like to you in this operation? >> yeah. success is in the minds of bashar al asad and the click around him, the assad and the families in syria. success is changing their willingness to use these weapons in the future. boy, even in saying that sentence, you know, success is certainly not guaranteed, is it? >> it's not. >> general hayden, it's walter isaacson, do you think it's in our strategic interests right now to have assad toppled. >> well, i think it's in our

strategic interest to manage the transition in syria and we have been hands off for far too long. i think joe suggested earlier as hard as it would have been this would have been easier to influence and affect 18, 12 or 6 months ago than it will be now. the sad fact is, it's going to be even harder to affect 6 and 12 months into the future. so i do think we've got to take a more activist role here. we've been standing back from this on the grounds that you can't trust the syrian opposition. and i think the secretary of state was a bit off administration message yesterday when he put that happy face on the opposition now. >> i have to ask, general, we need to leave, but a couple quick questions. are you surprised by how aggressively john kerry is selling this? >> i'm not surprised about his aggressiveness in selling the fact of the attack and being

done by the syrian government. i think we have overwhelming evidence of that and with president putin saying his intelligence services say that's not certain, that just tells me that kgb has lost more than a few feet off their fastball. but he is going beyond the small syria problem to the big syria problem. he's putting i think a bit too happy a face on the opposition but that said, joe, i do think we have to get involved and we begin to have -- we have to begin to shape events in syria. >> final question, for my republican friends who are saying they're going to vote against this, marco rubio yesterday voted against this, in part because we didn't act earlier, we didn't act a year ago or two years ago when we had a more viable, more inclusive syria opposition, what would you say to those republicans as the vote goes to the floor, wanting to hide behind this excuse?

>> yeah. it's a coherent argument. i heard the senator make it last night. it's very solid. he's correct in all of his points. but at the end of the day here, joe, it's what you and the others have suggested, this is the least worst option we now have. it would be near catastrophic, i think, for american influence in the world for the american congress not to support this. >> we are where we are, the president made a series, i believe, of terrible mistakes over the past two years, but for republicans to hide behind that, is unfortunate. you take the world as you find the world. you take your enemy as you find the enemy. you take your battlefield as you find a battlefield and in early september, 2013, we can't wring our hands over what the president did not do over the past two years. >> or what he said. how he said it. because the bottom line is, even the general here was saying, no matter what red line he drew,

the action has to be considered. it has to be considered. >> no doubt about it. >> general michael hayden, thank you so much. >> thank you, general. >> thank you. >> all right. coming up on "morning joe." >> this is a bad idea. >> his jack reacher novels made it to the big screen. author lee childs is on his 18th installment of the best-selling series. he joins us straight ahead. more "morning joe" in just a moment. [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman, we've always been on the forefront of innovation. when the world called for speed... ♪ ...when the world called for stealth... ♪ ...intelligence... endurance... affordability... adaptability...

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all right. up next, time to allow college athletes to get paid for their tale talents? "time" magazine's michael duffy joins us with their new issue. "morning joe" will be right back.

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it's -- there you go. there you go. get a sign and hold on, stay right there for a second. hold this. hold this. right there. there you go. >> little high, mark. >> down here like that. right here. >> under the graph, trying to get it above. >> it looks good. i think we got him. all right. welcome back to "morning joe." it's time to pay college athletes. that's what "time" magazine says. we have executive editor michael duffy with us for the new issue. johnny manziel a guy in a firestorm right now, not just for making money off selling his autographs but also for pushing his coach around. but this argument has been made before. and it does seem ridiculous if a kid sells his jersey for $20 on ebay, he can get kicked off the football team and yet the university is making how much a year on these jerseys? >> in some cases big 10 schools, s.e.c. schools, you know, 50,

$60 million. manziel isn't just a heisman trophy winner or quarterback, he's his own economic development zone. he's worth, 50, $60 million to a school before he goes into professional sports which he can do at any time. the case, we don't have to pay them what they're worth, that would be millions of year, pay them something, 35, $30,000, something. >> here's your, should this kid be making $225,000 a year playing football? what's wrong with getting an education? >> education is a secondary issue in some of the schools and sports we're talking about here. i would say in about 50 of the big-time schools, particularly in football and men's basketball, you know, it's more athlete than student and i think everybody knows that. >> that's a problem. >> so this has been around a while, as joe said. where's the momentum for this? >> there are two places. one is here you have manziel is

a perfect case. he was benched on saturday by the ncaa not so much for signing the helmets but because he didn't know i think the final decision was he didn't know that someone else might profit from it. this is a rampant practice among players. and something has to be done. the second is, there is a lawsuit moving through the courts from former college players, particularly football players, because other entities, game makers, even the ncaa have been using their names and their likenesses and profiting from them for years. eventually this is amateur athletics at this level is going to change. the ncaa has considered and stalled for the moment a plan to pay them something, $2,000, $3,000 a year. it's just a matter of time before we figure out what the amount will be. >> look at those numbers. the most profitable football programs, texas $77 million, michigan $61 million, on and on. this is, brian shactman, a fascinating page where it talks about how much money texas a&m has made and in large part how

that revenue has skyrocketed over the past year because of johnny manziel. >> it's fact. and he blows out a knee, regardless -- depending on his insurance policy, he gets nothing. i did a lot of work on my time at espn and cbnbc, the debate i how they get paid. there are issues with title 9, gender equity, nonrevenue generated sports. everyone has a theory. it's great to bring it up in this light. i still don't feel that how to pay them has been revolved and there's an answer. >> what's the answer? >> well, if we were willing to go to a complete free market these programs would have to pay these kids hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. the most conservative proposals is the one we've tabled here, keep the discussion going is 30,000 to 40,000 a year. >> for all players? for starters for stars? >> college would get a certain

amount of pool of money a percentage of its overall revenue, some of the schools are bringing in 70, $80 million a year per sport and have to use a percentage of that, 5%, and distribute it around the pool of players they would have to decide and it would chiefly benefit men because it's the male sports that are the ones that bring in the revenue. only a couple sports anyway. all of this would have to be worked out including the title 9 thing. remember this, too, the coaches now, some of these schools, they are making 2, 3, $4 million. >> highest paid employees at the school. >> i don't mean to interrupt. there should be a way to tie this to graduation, there should be some sort of escrow account where there's a percentage basis. they should not get this money necessarily when in school it to that degree. if they can somehow pro rate it and get a chunk of change when they get that diploma, manziel gets his millions when he goes to the nfl, make it tied into education and cover these guys. >> i've got to say, when i hear you, i come from the university of alabama, which is one of the biggest football factors in the

planet, but when i hear you say it's just the way it is, we know these are more athletes than students, i think it's fair for us to say in 2013, why? why is it that way? why does it have to be that way? why don't you start penalizing programs that don't graduate 90% of their college football players, their college basketball players. why? we don't have to keep doing this. there's a lot of money in it, but you know what, we've got to make coaches scared again of just as scared of a "d" on an exam as, you know, as 320-pound front lineman. >> if you march down this path, if you have college sports, sometimes distorting the whole college experience, does this make it better or make it much worse? >> it will make it more honest. that's for one thing. we're only talking about a couple sports where the programs have now so departed from the core mission of a university. this is entertainment. these are performers. they should be paid at some percentage and it will be up to

a lot of smarter people than me to figure out what the percentage is. some level. but nothing is not enough. >> you know, it's fascinating to me, because from an s.e.c. school and obviously so much giving is driven by how much you do, i was talking to pranston grad about 10 or 15 years ago and he said, you wouldn't believe how much more money we raise for the school for one of the greatest universities in the world, when princeton's football team is doing well. it's crazy. >> these schools, they now have to get into the big leagues. >> yeah. >> tv does it too. >> alums come back and she walk around the campus and they get misty eyed and checkbook out. it's crazy how it works. >> these are revenue centers and we should treat them as such. they aren't funks of the university. >> all right. the cover story, look at it, we have the triumphant from "time" magazine here. >> all three of us. >> isaacson, duffy and -- >> all right.

and the beard. >> the cover story, "it's time to pay college athletes." a lot of people will be talking about it. michael duffy, thank you so much for coming here. coming up next, best-selling author, lee child is here with his latest novel and his popular "jack reacher" series that's when "morning joe" returns. ever ybody has different investment objectives, ever ideas, goals, appetite for risk. you can't say 'one size fits all'. it doesn't. that's crazy. we're all totally different. ishares core. etf building blocks for your personalized portfolio. find out why 9 out of 10 large professional investors choose ishares for their etfs. ishares by blackrock. call 1-800-ishares for a prospectus, which includes investment objectives, risks, charges and expenses. read and consider it carefully before investing. risk includes possible loss of principal.

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jack reacher is a ghost, served in the military police. brilliant investigator. troublemaker too. then two years ago he disappeared. you don't find this guy unless he wants to be found. >> excuse me, sir, there's a jack reacher here to see you. >> can i help you? >> they say you shot five people. i don't believe you did. >> what exactly are you saying? >> he was framed. >> what does an army cop do mostly? >> what you do. one minor difference. every suspect was a trained killer. >> all right. that was the 2012 film "jack reacher" starring tom cruise. here with us now, the man behind the jack reacher series, lee child. he's out with his 18th thriller featuring the ek military cop, "never go back."

>> eight of these by the way, number one "new york times" best-sellers. the thing i like most, lee admits, this is an idealized autobiography and he would be jack reacher if he could get away with it. >> this is also what his bio says. married, grown-up daughter, tall slim, despite an appalling diet and refusal to exercise. in denial. >> so tell us what does jack reacher get himself into this time? the 18th novel. >> the title "never go back" is a clue. advise he's happy to follow. he's not about yesterday. he's about moving ahead. but he's talked on the phone to a woman who is the new commander of his old military unit. and she's a fascinating woman. she's got a great voice. she's got a great manner. she's got great abilities. and reacher who can be anywhere for any reason takes it into his head, i'll hitchhike across the country, meet this woman, take her out to dinner.

>> why would a guy that only is found when he wants to be found hitchhike from north dakota to washington -- what is so intriguing about this woman? >> well, it's partly the, you know, he's got to be somewhere. and so the slightest reason is good enough. and she's pretty compelling on the phone. and he wants to compare the reality. you've talked to people on the phone and they sound great and you want to know, are they really great? he goes to washington. when he gets there, total disaster. the woman is not there. there's some strange officer in the chair. reacher himself is accused of crimes that he can't remember. he's accused of involvement with people he can't recall. what is going on? that's the start of the book. that's the situation. >> the intrigue othver a woman. >> you feel -- i haven't read it, any them, but it feels like you got a little jason bourne. a little "mission:impossible." the movie, how accurate is the

tom cruise reflection? >> well, you know, everything changes from a book to a movie. in a weird way, you've got to change it completely in order to make it the same. in a way, cruise did that. cruise does not resemble reacher physically. that was the big stumbling block. but in every other way, cruise really did the job. the attitude, that kind of impatience reacher has. reacher is a guy who sees things five seconds before everybody else so he's forever waiting for everybody else to catch up. that kind of mood was -- cruise captured, nailed it. as a movie, i loved it. as a reacher movie, it was dead on. >> so i asked you before how you wrote these things because dan has, i mean, it's just -- he's got his system down. you were talking about having your system down. >> quirks. >> yeah, quirky guy. >> really quirky. >> but he worked for "the wall street journal." and then decided to do this.

you share something in common with mika brzezinski who was fired on her 39th birthday from cbs news. >> thank you. >> you began writing when? >> i began writing at 39 when i was fired from television. >> can you believe that? i'm from television too! yes! >> okay. >> i was going on the other end of these ear pieces. it was a great job. gran nad that television in england. great documentary producer. we had a corporate reshuffle. >> how did they fire you? what did they say? >> they fired me by phone. by answer phone actually. i was out for a week and i got back and the third message on my machine, you're fired, don't come back to work. >> literally? >> t.j., can you check your answering machine this weekend on sunday? >> that was after 20 years of working there. >> you were working there for 20 years. you always talked about reinvention for women. after 20 years, you turn to your wife and say, you know what, i

think i'm going to become a novelist, right? how did that work? >> you know, in my head it was like obvious. you know, yeah, why not. >> how about hers? >> in her head, yes, severe lip biting went on for about a year. >> did you have a hard time having your friends and your loved ones and you acquaintances take you seriously as a novelist? >> yeah, i mean, it was -- to say you're going to make a living writing fiction is like saying you're going to be hit by lightning twice the same day you win the lottery. everybody was very tol rent, like, yeah, yeah. figuring in a year's time i'd get another job. i thought, yeah, give myself a year and see what happens. i made it with seven weeks to spare. >> take him seriously now. >> at what point were you through your first jack reacher novel and you said, you know what, this is going to work? >> i can tell you exactly that because it was very early on. probably only third or fourth chapter. it was a friday night.

i was looking forward to -- really looking forward to writing it the next day, getting on with it. my wife said, we got to go and do this thing. i remember feeling so annoyed that i couldn't -- exactly the say feeling you have when you've got to stop reading a good book. so at that point, i said, you know what, this could work. >> the book is "never go back." lee child. >> would love for you to go back. we'll talk aston villa. how are they doing this year? >> middle. they'll be killed. >> up next, whose red line is it anyway? president obama says he didn't draw the red line, the world did. next on "morning joe." ♪ now i'm ready to start

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♪ i know that things can really get rough ♪ ♪ when you go it alone yesterday, the obama white house laid out their case for intervention in syria. the goals of which ultimately are really quite simple. >> the goal is a negotiated sal lucian which results in the departure of assad and the free choice of the syrian people for their future. >> it's simple. assad leaves willingly. democratic syria is stable and peaceful. thousands of lives are saved. and elizabeth bennett marries mr. darcy and they all live happily ever after. it's unicorns and rainbows. good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast. 5:00 a.m. on the west coast. as you take a live look at new york city. welcome back to "morning joe."

back with us on set, we have -- >> dr. richard kimball. >> mark halperin. wow. john heilemann, thomas roberts, katty kay and howard dean. president obama is on a collision course with russian president putin. the president said he will continue to engage his russian counterpart at the g-20 summit on syria though they've, quote, hit a wall. the group will have working sessions and dinner later tonight. the pleasantries already begun. putin called out secretary kerry, accusing him of, quote, lying. and he knows that he is lying. this is sad. putin was referring to testimony where secretary kerry downplayed al qaeda's role within the syrian opposition. but as calls for an international coalition to strike syria grow, president obama is resisting the claim that the red lines syria is

accused of crossing are his alone. >> first all, i didn't set a red line. the world set a red line. the world set a red line when governments representing 98% of the world's population said the use of chemical weapons are abhorrentpassed a treaty forbidding their use. congress set a red line when it ratified that treaty. my credibility's not on the line. the international community's credibility's on the line. and america and congress' credibility's on the line because we give lip service to the notion these international norms are important. >> meanwhile, in -- >> his credibility is so on the line. no, of course. >> yes. >> he pulls the united states of america with him. because he's commander in chief. but he is the one during the campaign that created the red

line. he said it twice. he framed it. said, if you cross it, there are going to be kobs againconsequen. the president also when he said assad must go. what's -- you know, dr. brzezinski who has been against syria intervention for years now, when he said assad must go, i mean, you set yourself up. you draw another red line. but this is his default position. mubarak must go. gadhafi must go. assad must go. he's backed america, in my opinion, into a corner. now he can't flippantly just say, haey, i had nothing to do with this. suddenly we're in a position where we have to go to war. it's ridiculous. >> what he said yesterday, what we just showed, obvious

intellectual sympathy for his point. as commander in chief at a type when he's trying to live up to his red line, i think what he said yesterday's going to be picked up for years to come as people trace the president's relationship to america's war in the world. there's no great outcomes now. but he's got to lead. the statement he made yesterday basically trying to share the burden with congress, share with other countries. great int laeellectual sympathy that. >> he's commander in chief. he drew the lines. whether he wants to say he drew the lines or not. and then he sent out his secretary of state to make a strong statement. then he undercut his secretary of state. said, we're going to go to congress. war powers act doesn't require that of course. there's no constitutional requirement that he goes to congress for an immediate

strike. delays it. i must say, this is some of the most baffling commander in chief leadership i've ever seen in my life. >> i don't even have as much sympathy for it as mark does. you're not a neutral player here. to take the position that you want to have congress approval to do this, especially given a public that is largely opposed to the notion, seems to me to be a totally credibility position. you're not a neutral player who is just putting something on the table and saying, let's discuss this. he's taken a position saying we should do this. if you're going to say "we should do this," you should then go and fight for it. you can call that leadership or call it fighting for principal, whatever it is. he's the one putting this forward. it is on him now to get it through the congress. it's on him to rally the world community around it. he's the one who's proposing this thing. therefore, whether you want to

call it credibility on the line or not, this is the thing you must take ownership of. and now put your entire shoulder into it to get it done because you presumably believe it is the right thing to do. >> but howard dean, there is support that you're hearing in congress. you know, we can focus on the red line comments and that's a very legitimate debate as to whether or not he should have said that. but at this point, we're looking at what's happening in syria and there appears to be support for action. >> i think we've engaged here in this conversation. what i would call washington huey. >> give me a break. save it for somebody else. >> joe, this is the blame game -- >> you know what, you're on the wrong show. >> yeah, i'm on the wrong show. let's get to the nitty-gritty. what ought we to do? the first assumption you have to make, do we belong in syria? is there a reason for us to go in? some people say it's none of our business. i say when kids are getting killed, it's always our

business. the next question is what can we do about it. the fact of the matter is, i was very happy to criticize the president when he did health care reform. i know a lot about it. i've had a lot more experience about it than probably most the people who wrote the bill. in this situation, the president of the united states is the only person who knows all the facts except for a few of his advisers. so he's got to make a tough decision. i think that -- i think he did the right thing going to congress. now he's got to make a decision. what are the alternatives? one, sanctions. we probably do then already. two, you can try to envelope syria in the mess iran is in in terps of our banking structures. my guess is that won't work but i don't know. three is some sort of armed intervention. i give the president the right to make this decision. you can criticize hip all you want. but he's got to make this tough decision. i think he's done the right thing by going to congress. this is an american people's decision. we need to have a public debate. that's exactly what we're having. my concern is why are we having

a washington-type discussion about what the president said, when they said it? why don't we debate the merits of whether we ought to be going into syria or not? >> because howard, we're here because of what he said. words have consequences. when you have the president of the united states -- he's not a pass itch act, passive actor. you want to talk about washington hooey. he's not a passive actor. >> we ought to give him the ability to make that decision. >> -- two times that assad can't cross that red line or else, and then assad crosses the red line. when the president said assad must go. when the president has his own chairman of the joint cheeches again chiefs against him. then is misstating what the chairman of the joint chiefs says in private conversation. so much so that the chairman of the joint chiefs comes out and says you. when the chairman of the joint chiefs says there's no good options in syria. yet we're still stuck in a

position where if we don't go to syria, guess what, the commander in chief -- >> why don't we -- >> let me finish. the commander in chief's credibility is not only on the line, the united states of america's credibility's on the line. that's not just a message that is sent to assad in syria. that is a message that is sent to the mullahs in iran who are not developing chemical weapons, they're developing nuclear bombs. >> okay. so my view is, why don't we discuss the merits instead of playing the blame game which so often goes on instead of the beltway? >> howard, why did you play the blame game when you ran for president? you're trying to figure out what the situation is and what the problem is. and if the president -- and you talk about health care, let's go to katty kay. >> joe, wait a minute. i play the blame game when we went to iraq because i didn't think the facts supported the president's conclusion. >> okay. just five minutes ago -- >> i didn't attack the president -- >> just five minutes ago you said, howard, and then we'll get

beyond this, but just five minutes ago, you said an you know what, the president knows more than we do. you really need to trust him to make this tough decision. you sound just like paul wolfowitz. i mean, back in 2002. don't ever trust that the president -- >> that's very insulting. >> -- has more information than we do and we can't sit back and be baffle ed by this man tryingo pretend he's a passive actor on the world stage when he is the one that has framed the outlines of this debate and has put us in the position we're in. >> if we want to criticize the president for his decision, i think there's other people's ideas out there that are very good. let's have a debate on the merits of what we need to do. again, not play the washington blame game. just, this doesn't help. >> i don't even know -- mark halperin. >> dr. dean, the focus should be on children who have been killed. an international norm has been violated. i agree, that's where the focus is. here's where i think you're missing the piece we were

discussing that i don't think is inside washington. which is the president has to lead. there's a shocking lack of interest in upholding this violation of accepted international norm on the part of a lot of our allies and a lot of members of congress. only one person now can get the country and the world to focus on what needs to be done. and that person yesterday said, this isn't really on me. that to me is not inside washington. it's a question of these strikes are going to happen. i'm almost certain. then we need the president of the united states to lead the aftermath. and what he did yesterday i think is going to make it a lot harder to lead that aftermath. if you care about the children who were killed and you care about the violation of an international accepted norm, that's why yesterday i think mattered a lot, is not about inside washington. >> well, okay. so we're going to agree to disagree on this one. >> all right, let's move on. in washington, the senate resolution authorizing the use of force narrowly passed its first committee.

democratic senator ed markey. he wanted to do more analysis. and one significant revision added for senator john mccain. >> wait, one of his first major votes? >> come on, he's going to study more. mccain called for changing the military equation on the battlefield. the obama administration has said it's not seeking a change in the balance of power with military action. secretary kerry had a tough time selling the plan on capitol hill. one of the more heated exchanges came when republican representative jeff duncan pressed john kerry on benghazi. >> the say administration that was seemingly so quick to involve the u.s. in syria now was reluctant to use the same resources at its disposal to attempt to rescue the four brave americans who fought for their lives in benghazi. mr. kerry, you have never been one that advocated for anything

other than caution. the same is true for the president and the vice president. is the power of the executive branch so intoxicating that you had abandoned past caution in favor for pulling the trigger on a military response so quickly? >> let me begin, congressman, by challenging your proposition that i've never done anything accept advocate caution. because i volunteered to fight for my country. and that wasn't a cautious thing to do when i did it. >> mr. secretary -- >> so when i was in the senate -- i'm going to finish, congressman. i am going to finish. when i was in the united states senate, i supported military action in any number of occasions. including grenada, panama, i can run a list of them. we're talking about people being killed by gas. and you want to go talk about benghazi and fast and furious. >> absolutely want to talk about benghazi. four americans lost their lives. >> katty kay.

obviously, it was a wild one to watch yesterday. as we know from 2002, these authorization votes will live forever. and for years and years to come. and that's what ed markey and others like him are playing politics with. okay, he's present and accounted for but not on the record. >> right, which is probably why rubio voted no, right. he's looking at this and thinking of 2016 and how is this going to go down in the records. even though he supported military action in the past, wanted the u.s. to take more action in syria, in terms of helping the rebels. yesterday he changes that and votes no on the authorization. markey says he needs more time to think about it. we had a spirited debate in the house yesterday. secretary kerry is right. of course involving benghazi and fast and furious in this discussion is irrelevant. it is i think howard used the word hooey. that was a little bit of hooey.

the consequences of what's being done in washington, i'm would be one of the first to say we shouldn't get too inside the beltway. in this case what is happening around the beltway is critical around the world. part of the reason america is struggling to get allies to come on board to have an operation against syria is because of concern about confusion about this city and this administration about what the strategy is. about what the long-term consequences of a strike are and how much planning there is for unexpected contingencies. and that's specifically one of the concerns that western nations have. countries in europe are having. about american leadership. like it or not this is the world superpower. this is the biggest economy in the world. it has the biggest military in the world. the president is the most powerful man in the world. when he acts with a degree of indecision we saw during the course of last week, that's very

disquieting to other countries around the world. >> still ahead on "morning joe," deputy national security adviser tony blinken. on how the administration plans to convince still skeptical members of congress on its syria strike plan. plus, he's been credited for being the man who convinced the world to intervene in libya. first, here's bill with a check on the forecast. >> convince me to look for a new weather man. >> bill. >> good morning. on this thursday, changes coming for new england and also in the northwest. in new england, remember, we ma packed those jackets? may need them for the kids. serious cold front from canada. it is going to be chilly. today, not so bad. still holding on to that warmth from new york to d.c. look at the highs. buffalo, 67.

then we're expecting the cold air really to move in later on this evening. already freeze warnings for the adirondacks. we have frost advisories in northern portions of maine, vermont and new hampshire. look at temperatures. 39 tonight in burlington, vermont. 33 in caribou. even as far south as hartford, connecticut, low to mid-40s. that's chilly. cold for this time of year. near record lows. also tropical storm gabriella affecting puerto rico. no impact expected in the lower 48 from this storm. the cold front kicking through new england will help to take the storm out into the atlantic as we go throughout the weekend. another storm that's no threat to the u.s. that is great news out there. other news, i mentioned the northwest, a little bit rainy. very hot in the middle of the country. that's about it. get ready, areas from new york city northwards, tomorrow morning is a jacket day. with the spark miles card from capital one,

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why get involved in another possibly ten-year war for nothing? not only that, who's the enemy? >> i don't think it's the right time and the right place for our country to make a unilateral strike. >> no one has said to me what the positive effect of going in with a military strike would be. we would certainly kill people. >> why can't we get so much enthusiasm, okay, for helping our own peep, helping our own

people here at home who need it desperately? >> it is a war weary country for sure. which is the backdrop of the case against syria. here with us now from the white house, deputy national security adviser tony blinken. later today, he will be going to the capital to brief house and senate members on syria. mark halperin, john heilemann and katty kay with us now. give us the bottom line on the case made on the hill today. >> what we're seeing is two things. first, we're seeing growing support on the hill. two days ago, we had speaker boehner, leader cantor, leader pelosi on the democratic side. a resolution passed by the senate foreign relations committee on a bipartisan basis authorizing the president to use force to deal with the chemical weapons problem. we're seeing it on both sides of the aisle. we're seeing it building. second, when members of congress get the information, when they look at the case, they come away

convinced of two things. that assad used chemical weapons and used them against his own people and his own children. and they also come away i think increasingly could be vinced that we need to do something about it. we need to enforce this norm that's been there for nearly 100 years against the use of chemical weapons. so we see this as building, as the support coming together for the president to take action. >> tony, obviously the support you have from members of congress is unequivocal but the numbers don't appear to be there. what concerns cou s do you have overcome to get those numbers? >> here's what i think's going on. when people around the country hear in a headline or on tv military force and syria, they see this as through the prism of the last decade. they think iraq, they think afghanistan. they think 150,000 troops on the ground. it's very important that people understand what this is. what this is a limited targeted but effective use of force to

deter assad from using his chemical weapons and to make it more difficult for him to use it again. what this is not, this is not open ended. this is not boots on the ground. this is not iraq. it's not afghanistan. it's not even libya. the more people understand that, the more they'll understand the need for us to take this limited but effective action. >> tony, do you think that argument is obviously -- you're going to be pressing. it seeps like your biggest problem is among liberals and democrats in particular in the house. how do you get over the fact that you just raised the past ten years and you talk about iraq specifically. how do you get over the suspicion some people have that there is no such thing as a nonopen ended military commitment? once the door is open, there's no way to not slide down a slippery slope to a place you guys say we're currently not going to go? >> one, it's laying out the case on the need to act because i think whether you're a liberal, whether you're a conservative, wheb you're somewhere in between, you're sensitive to the

need to make sure to the extent we can that when something as egregious as a chemical weapon is used, there's accountability and we take steps to make sure they're not used again. we know what will happen if we don't do something. we know assad will continue to use these weapons with impunity against his own people. we know countries around the world who have these weapons will draw the lesson it's okay to use them. so that's one. the other thing is, we lay out what we plan to do and what we don't plan to do and we make it very clear. i think the authorization, for example, passed yesterday in the senate, makes clear the limited focussed nature of what we're proposing. >> i feel there are people who will say they've heard that before. i mean, can you really promise no boots on the ground? do you want to do that? >> we can. and we are. mika, there's, you know, there's some interesting precedents. for example in 1998, the clinton administration, seeing the concerns about saddam hussein's chemical weapons program back

then, this is before the iraq war, took limited and, as it turned out, very effective action to deal with the chemical weapons infrastructure that sadd saddam had. in 2003, they found that actually that very limited focused action, which was just over a couple of days, actually got rid of the remnants of saddam's program. so these kinds of things have been done in the past. they've been done effectively. >> deputy national security adviser tony blinken, thank you. here with us now, france's best known public international writer and journalist bernard-henie levy. many credit him for being the catalyst for world intervention in libya. welcome to the show. good to have you with us. >> thank you, thank you. >> i want to read from your latest column, the daily beast. obama, putin, the g-20 and a week's wait. you say, care must be taken to

ensure this interval for discussion and reflection ultimately bears fruit rather than turning against the american and french presidents. care must be taken to avoid allowing the syrian regime and its allies to use the delay to scatter their guns and bury their command centers to intensify their brainwashing efforts and attempt to muddle matters still further. care must be taken because there is one ally of assad's who will benefit in the coming days from an unexpected forum in which to plead the cause of the regime. that ally is vladimir putin. how can care be taken in a situation like this? >> first, of all, i hope that president obama who was so wise by taking these days in order to build up his coalition and his majority, i hope he comes to g-20 with biscuits. i hope when he will be in front

of vladimir putin who is sort of state hooligan, will know how to speak to him. i hope that occasion will not be given to putin to build an informal coalition with brics, brazil, so on. i'm sure president obama will be strong enough to prevent all these diversion operations which vladimir putin will try. >> we have katty kay from the bbc with us. jump in. >> bernard, the french national assembly as you know of course is debating a strike against syria. the president in france doesn't actually need a vote. but president hollande has said if the u.s. congress votes no on a resolution for president obama, then france won't strike. if france believes it's the right thing do to strike syria, why are they going to be controlled by what the u.s. congress does? >> because france is a great

country, but not great enough o to -- i think france would be -- but i cannot imagine that the congress says no. after the great job which is done. and we just heard that. the great job showing the proofs, demonstrating that the real radical islamist is with bashar al assad. because at the enof the day, bashar al assad means what, iran, hezbollah and hamas, which is the three pillars radical islam. so all this is being said in these hours to the congress and there will not be no. and then hollande will come along with barack obama and we'll go back to all good times of french and -- it is the only good news of these days. the french/american alliance. from the time of our two

revolutions, american revolution, french revolution. i prefer this time. the time of george w. bush when france was demonized by the administration. i like this france/u.s. link. which is reaffirmed today. i like this. >> i agree with you that the votes will be there in congress. let me ask what your best case scenario after a strike. what happens if after an american strike in syria that would be good? >> yes. what will happen, nobody knows. the only thing that we know is that during -- since two years, there is a race between western world and radical islam. in order to know who will topple the dictator. who will topple assad. if the west topples assad or if the west contributes to that, then the pro-west, inside the

rebelli rebellion, will take the lead. if the west does not do anything, washes its hands of the flesh and blood of the children of syria gassed, then the radical islamists, al qaeda and so on, will take credit of the fall of the dictator. this is the question. who will have them? bashar al assad will fall. would will have the credit? al qaeda and so on on the other side. this is the political question. if there is a credit for obama, you will see how inside the democratic -- the free syria concern. the pro west will lead and gain some ground. >> we have bernard-henri levy. thank you very much for being on. he is france's best-known intellectual. >> my english is pretty poor, i'm sorry. >> it's pretty good english. we were nervous, thinking -- and

the first thing he says to me -- >> russell brand. >> russell brand, of course russell brand. >> iconic. >> this show has become famous worldwide because of your tete-a-tete, mika, with russell brand. when he told you you had the hair of princess diana, i saw this show becoming iconic all over the world. that's a fact. >> iconic. >> either continent. >> i like to think of that experience with you and russell brand as a tet-a-tet. >> there was a moment of tet-a-t tet-a-tet, you know. there was a moment when he put the feet like this et cetera and then there was a tete-a-tete with mika which was the hot moment of the show. >> it could be the basis of a broadway show, couldn't it? >> it could be. you both have to work a little more but it could be the basis, the first line, yes. >> there was hot moment, did you say hot? >> it was somewhat hot, it began to be. i'm sorry, i'm french. >> yes, you are. coming up -- thank you.

>> french. thank you. >> how do you fit a story that spans five centuries into one book? senior correspondent for pbs "news hour," ray suarez managed to do just that. he's next. what if we took all this produce from walmart and secretly served it up at this produce stand in the heart of grape country? it's a fresh-over! come taste some grapes - tell us what you think. these guys have an amazing sweetness. yeah they do. probably the best grapes i've ever had. a thousand thumbs up. walmart works directly with growers to get you the best quality produce they've ever had. all this produce is from walmart. you are lying. nooo! i thought these were like straight from the farm. from, from the farm. i think we should stop at walmart on the way home. find fresh and juicy grapes and all your quality produce backed by our 100% money back guarantee. walmart.

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most people are saying spanish, mexicans, indigenous peoples, do not have the special inheritance of liberty we have. >> my father thought the united states would be like paradise. there were jobs for everyone. there were thousands trying to get across. >> the first european language spoken be in what would become it is united states, spanish. >> immigration means it all gets to be part of your identity. >> i can't believe it. >> it's crucial that we know who we are where we come from and what it's been like. >> i am so proud to be your mayor. >> i, sonya -- >> there's so much at stake for all americans in how latinos in the united states do. >> that was a trailer from the upcoming pbs documentary latino americans. here with us now, ray swau rez. he is the author of the companion book, latino americans, 500 year legacy that shaped a nation. all in this book.

>> if you read this book -- >> 500 years. right here, baby. >> you will have a pretty good working understanding. you won't know everything, obviously. >> let's talk about the time frame. 500 years. >> roughly from the time the spanish empire gets established and starts to send fingers of settlers into what's now the united states. >> talk about the legacy from that point forward when really, if you look at it, latino americans, when did they start to have a big, big impact of this country. no other immigrant group can really say we were already here. it's an encounter. it's a clash of empires.

>> we talk about the influx and the percentage of population. >> i think the beards are similar. >> our education systems, based open these trends -- >> it happens without you realizing it. in 20 years, what comes out of whatever is the success of the radio will be different. what our foods taste like will be different. what you hear spoken about on television will be slightly different. there won't be a break through moment where it all changes. it changes imperceptibly as we move from today's 53 million to 130 million latinos in the country by 2040. and the degree by which they continue to self-identify, which they hold on in some form to

spanish, and the degree to which they hold on to a cultural memory of the place they came from, be it puerto rico, central american countries, that will have a lot to say about what that 2040 country will be like. how much people forget about those past places and how much they hold on to them will tell the story. >> allen. >> let me ask you a political history question. people have been kind of surprised i think in the last two elections but particularly this one that the hispanic vote is really important, like a pivotal voting bloc in presidential elections. talk about the last 20 years, if you were thinking about that narrow time frame, what the big moments in terms of -- the watershed moments in terms of hispanic politics in the american scene have been over the last couple decaddecades. >> two that pop to mind. pete wilson's proposition in california which helps shift california from an arguably

purple state into one that's solid blue and may be for decades. >> 1998? '96. >> '93. >> early '90s. another, the remap that follows the 1990 census and the 2000 census which creates possibilities under the voting rights act for another 15 seas s to go to latino politicians. >> looking back, i take it you can look forward, especially maybe in terms of the future -- political future for latin americans, immigration policy, and also what do you make of the influence of marco rubio and ted cruz and -- do they reshape the conversation in any way? >> latinos in the united states in 2013 are a people that still, more than other americans, depend on government services being well provided and

competently put in the public space. parks. schools. libraries. state universities. and to the degree that latinos continue to rely more than other americans on those services, they will continue to look to a party that says we think these things ought to be there. so a politician who says he wants to shrink government to the point where he can drown it in the bathtub, i don't know. >> that's going to have a widespread appeal. >> the book is "latino americans." the 500 year legacy that shaped a nation. you can get an excerpt on our website, mojoe.msnbc.com. >> let's go to st. petersburg. this is quite a scene. >> vladimir putin greeting members of the g-20. >> at least he has his shirt on. >> alex was just saying in my ear this actually resembled a

scene out of "the bachelor." he would come and greet each one. i don't know that he's handed them a rose yet and kissed them on the cheek. >> fantastic logo. >> it is a great logo. >> that's a great cutaway. >> much better than that -- so here we go. >> oh, my gosh. >> well, there is a little bit of that, alex. >> he's a little -- >> each one drives up. oh, my. all he needs is a rose. >> he needs a rose. >> and to be shirtless on horse back. >> that's true. >> so new they come up. all right. fan at fantastic. there's only one vladimir putin. >> thank god. >> right now, he and barack obama are having a battle. there's been some question as to whether they would meet for a few minutes, at least shake hands. oh, here we go. and chuck todd reporting earlier from st. peter petersburg that' probably not going to happen. vladimir putin's people said

that he's very busy. having to host the summit and obviously very busy setting up the stage craft. it's quite impressive. this grouping. going up to "the bachelor." >> up next, workers plan nationwide protests today at walmart stores across the country. how will their demonstrations impact the markets today? brian sullivan is next with business before the bell. mine was earned in djibouti, africa. 2004.

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no two people have the same financial goals. pnc investments works with you to understand yours and helps plan for your retirement. talk to a pnc investments financial advisor today. ♪ welcome back to "morning joe." it's time for biz before the bell. nothing to be ashamed of. i thought the hokies defense was -- i mean, you guys held alabama to levels not seen in a

couple years. >> this is why i should have said no all week. i was hiding from you. listen, you guys are going undefeated. >> no, you guys are unbelievable. i tip to you. >> i tip my hat. >> business news? >> i thought the acc, good news for the acc last saturday. clemson winning. and actually virginia tech's defense doing a better job holding alabama. that weekly jobless claims came in better than expected. the four-week average, the overall monthly trend, is now the lowest since october of 2007. almost a six-year low for the movie orange trend for weekly

unemployment claims. workers planning to strike today. apparently got canned when they tried last time. so watch the unemployment front claims. go hokies. see you tomorrow. >> have fun this weekend, go hokies. cnbc's brian sullivan. thank you. reminder, we have a lot more from our guests in the afternoon mojoe portion of the websites. walter isaac son who also wrote a book on steve jobs of course speaks out about the future of apple and innovation. that steve jobs book is coming out in paper back. we'll be right back. helicopthierhis hibuzzing, andk engine humming. sfx: birds chirping sfx: birds chirping

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>> i'm not taking any one. >> i finally got some milk for my cheerios. >> utter chaos. >> it's utter chaos on the set of "morning joe." i'm meteorologist bill karins with your business travel forecast. beautiful forecast for your airport travel really coast to coast. late in the afternoon, we could see some thunderstorms in florida. maybe some minor delays there.

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welcome back to "morning joe." it's time for what we learned today. we learned a lot about facial hair. >> oh, god. >> at this point, you need to be the judge, america. do we go into syria or not? question number one. question number two, do we save the beard or do we shave the beard? tweet us @joemsnbc. >> look at that. such a friendly face. >> you're going to like the way you look, i guarantee it. ah, keep the beard. >> you never know what is watching. during this segment. the longtime notre dame coach called in. said be listen, these guys are getting compensated in a lot of different ways. they're walking away with plenty. >> all right. time to wrap it up.

>> i got pixies playing in new york. >> where? >> bower ballroom i believe. >> we're going to be there. >> the show's over. >> phoenix coming this fall. >> phoenix, vampire weekend. >> steely dan back. >> the dan going to go back up to the fabulous beacon. >> absolutely right. >> hey, if it's way too early, it's "morning joe." save or shave? tweet us. let us know. now stick around. luke russert is up straight ahead with "the daily rundown." road to a resolution. as president obama arrives in russia for the g-20 summit. tension over syr i