the original drama over the summit was supposed to concern nsa leaker edward snowden. but that has since been eclipsed by the standoff over u.s. military action in the middle east. it is a drama that is playing out on the opponent's home court and with few international partners openly at president obama's side. as politico reports, the timing of the g-20 meeting is, to say the least, awkward and uncomfortable for the white house. in an ap interview yesterday, president putin increased tensions, suggesting that any u.s. strike without u.n. authorization would constitute, quote, aggression, and threatened that russia would resume shipments of anti-missile air defenses to syrian president bashar al assad. putin also accused secretary of state john kerry of lying to congress about the nature of syria's rebel factions, declaring, he lies openly, and he knows that he lies. this is sad. back at home the president's decision to seek congressional approval for military force has been met with skepticism and faces an uncertain future.

>> the president, as he said last week, he had the authority to do this. he can make a case not to do it and you can make a case to do it but i don't think you can make a case to dither for another week. if you're confused join the crowd. i was vastly confused by this and i think it sent a signal of weakness to the rest of the world. >> i don't think it's a sudden embrace of the separation of powers. the reason he was alone and naked in the world, he didn't have russia. he didn't have the u.n. he didn't have the security council. >> so far the debate in congress has split both republican for whom intraparty schisms are part of the natural order and democrats with two voting no and one present in the senate foreign relations committee. nonetheless the resolution passed by a 10-7 vote. while senator pat leahy had earlier suggested the committee would narrow the scope of u.s. intervention, it might have done just the opposite. under pressure from the likes of senator john mccain, the language in the resolution increases aid to the syrian opposition, and now reads, it is the policy of the united states

to change the momentum on the battlefield in syria so as to create favorable conditions for a negotiated settlement that ends the conflict and leads to a democratic government in syria. the vagaries of this intervention and its presumed end with a democratic syria caused andrew sullivan to marvel, if you have never seen a loophole that big before, gaze into it some more. it is so vast you could fit iraq into it. joining me today, msnbc political analyst and washington bureau chief at mother jones, david corn. staff writer at salon, alix sites wald and host of msnbc's disrupt, karen finney. and joining us now from washington is former national security council spokesman and co-founder of fenway strategies, tommy detour. thanks for joining us. >> thanks for having me. >> i want to ask you just about how this message has been crafted. and, you know, the president obviously did not draft the language coming out of the senate foreign relations

committee yesterday but certainly i think it makes some of us who are concerned about how big this intervention will get a little queasy, if not plain simply worried. and i guess i ask you, as a master of the message, how well the administration handled the back and forth, the reasoning around syria. >> i think i hear what you're saying with respect to the resolution. the white house has been clear that what they're looking for is a time limited action that is narrow in scope in terms of addressing the distribution methods with the chemical weapons. so they want a limited intervention in syria to try to deal with cw specifically. i think the syria messaging broadly is a challenge and we're going through a period where we're starting to talk about the politics and the whip votes and everything associated with it. but what i hope we can remember is there is a humanitarian angle here. there are little children who were gassed by assad while they slept. and that's something i hope we can all keep front and center as we talk about this.

>> yeah and tommy, i've tried to often return to the subject of the humanitarian crisis that hit syria. but at the same time, you know, we are talking about limited military strikes that may not actually end bashar al assad's campaign against the syrian opposition. and in many cases, his own people. so, if that's not the -- i mean we -- i think the american public is very confused about what the end game is precisely. we can talk until we're blue in the face about children dying but if we're having limited military strikes that may not put an end to children dying. >> you're right. and this is a brutally difficult situation because you have a desire to have regime change. you want assad gone but there's also a humanitarian crisis. and in some ways putting more weapons in the arms of the opposition could exacerbate the humanitarian crisis. so it's incredibly difficult policy choice. but what the administration wants to do is a limited operation that deals with some of the means of cw contribution so that would be, you know, command and control sites or

helicopters, or aircraft or other locations you could imagine. and it would be designed to be deterrent but would inhibit his ability to do this again and send a very strong message both to iran and to assad. >> david, where are we on this? i feel like it's a rubik's cube. i really do. every day there's a new dimension added to this. >> i think the president would rather have a rubik's cube to solve than to deal with syria. and i put this question to tommy, too what you're dealing with here is a very nuanced position, would you want to strike assad for limited reasons but you don't want to defeat him because then you may have chaos and the al qaeda affiliate opposition may take control so you want to have these measured responses that may or may not do what you want to achieve, and how do you even measure it to begin with. and you've put that all inside of a political whirlpool which the president created by going to congress, when you have, you know, the republicans who hate him just because they hate him. and republicans who

ideologically oppose this and those who support it and the democrats split. in all that, with this rating about 30% public opinion polls, how can the white house and the president message as they like to say, using it as a verbal, message their way to some clarity here when the policy itself is based on almost per force a lack of charity. >> and karen we know that it has been floated it has been thrown out there that the president may make an oval office address. the only time he's ever done that was the bp oil spill and as a communications person i wonder what your take on the efficacy of that is, could be? >> certainly, if we are going to proceed with air strikes he absolutely has to he has to be on record as having gone to the american people, and made his case. regardless of what the end game is, regardless of what happens after the 30 days or the 60 days. if he hasn't done that, i think it will be forever a stain on his legacy in the way that i think he will actually, as we look back in history, get a lot

more credit for having gone to congress. i think it wases right thing to do, even though it sort of seemed like maybe he backed into that strategy. it was absolutely the right thing to do for a myriad of reasons. but you know, the problem that i have with all of this is remembering that this started out as part of the arab spring. we don't know, what do the syrian people want? always talk about what we want in >> the syrian people don't want to die. that's the only clarity we have right now. >> this is turning into not just a one side versus the other side civil war. but -- >> but it's assad who turned it into a civil war because he knew that was the way to create a proxy where that was the way to get hezbollah, now it's a sectarian war. >> and alex i want to get i mean i don't want to lose focus on the realities of what happens in syria but there's also the reality of what happens in washington and the various political dine amics that are at play here. you've written about the split on the left. we have talked ad nauseam i'm sure everyone who's a

conservative who has ever watched the show has been struck by the amount of time we spend talking about republican infighting. i won't call it democratic infighting but it's a real seeming break between different factions of the democratic party over whether or not to authorize this thing. and tell us a little bit more about what this -- i know you have three sort of reasons that you've isolated for why democrats may not be -- >> yeah, it's sort of i mirror image of what you're seeing on the right. you have some who are very motivated by what they see on the ground. their hearts are broken, humanitarian intervention camp they want to uphold the international norms of chemical weapons and say we won't accept this. it gets complicated because the u.n. hasn't signed off on this thanks to russia and veto power. and you've got another camp that's staunchly anti-war, look at the lesson in afghanistan, and iraq and vietnam and say this is destined for failure. we haven't been given a strong reason, and we have code pink and answer coalition that we haven't heard from in 2003 basically protesting from the white house.

then you have another camp that is loyal to obama, they want to support the president and they know if this vote goes down it's going to be a devastating blow to the white house. it will make it harder for him on upcoming fiscal issues, debt ceiling and everything. so you're pulled in three different directions and it's just like on the republican side where you have the same ideological split and a negative reaction to obama. >> i think the split on the right is new for the right. they didn't have the iraq war. they all supported the iraq war, the democrats split basically 50/50. 50% of democrats in the senate who supported it and 40% of democrats in the house who supported it so they're used to having these sort of internal fights going back to vietnam in the democratic party. >> tommy what happens if the president doesn't get congressional approval here? i can't imagine a scenario where he overrides the will of the people when we're talking about military intervention that let's be honest could escalate to worst in the worst, worst case scenario. what is, what is your thought on that matter? >> i mean i think that would be incredibly difficult situation. i think i don't know the answer.

i mean i think he said he wants to act and he thinks that upholding the chemical weapons convention, and the international prohibition against the use of chemical weapons against innocent people is a critical part of his broader agenda in terms of nonproliferation. but i also you know agree with you that going against the will of the people is very difficult. i think the trajectory of these whip counts, while there's a lot of work to do, is actually good. and i think that's because in the beginning the intelligence case was less firm. they would doing unclassified briefings because members were home. they've been able to get more of them in classified setting and talk to what really happened and people have left convinced and you're seeing the leadership coming out and saying the right things. but i think it's a principal position to go to congress, and when congress actually signs off on this, i think it makes it stronger and this is an action by the united states not by obama, versus his congress. >> right. and if i think nobody would argue with you that it's not a he doesn't have a stronger mandate if congress votes yes that's quite obvious. the question is, once you say that this is this is about

brill, this is about sort of the thesis of the obama project which is curbing executive power, where there is an overreach, being more transparent, having more participatory democracy more representative government, how can you override that if he doesn't get the approval? >> yeah, look it's brutally difficult problem. what's supposed to happen here is the u.n. security council is supposed to function, and they're supposed to actually do something when something like this happens. unfortunately the russians are acting on behalf of their client, bashar al assad and they don't want to lose the weapons sales and they fell back into the corner and rendered the u.n. security council useless on this issue. >> we also, you know, the president didn't get the vote out of england. you know a lot of the support from the allies are not coming that he wants, as well. so you know, if we can blame russia, they deserve a lot of blame, but this is becoming a difficult sell not just at home, but abroad, as well. the arab league, too -- >> that's all the more reason that the president should make his case to the american people directly because time and again when we've seen that when he does that he's the best at doing

that. than anybody. >> he has to do the question is does he do this before the vote or after the vote? >> before. >> before. >> i hope so. >> don't make the sale after -- >> because right now you have people like cummings- >> elijah cummings. >> excuse me, who loves the president, supports him and he says everywhere he goes@% of his district against that and though he wants to give the president the benefit of the doubt but at some point you also have to serve the people who elected you. so the president better start doing this soon. >> the more people learn if you tell them that chemical weapons were used that you know, if you describe the situation on the ground the numbers tick up for support. so if obama can educate the american people about what's going on. >> you know tommy you got to ask you this though because we are the g-20 is going on and we all saw the weird sort much hand it wasn't weird it wasn't weird at all the mand shang between president putin and president obama and i wonder as an nse manufacture rick what you think

of the room to negotiate with the russians. i mean is there any, could things happen behind the scenes? we know he's going to have some kind of offsite with president putin they're certainly having more face time than they have had in a little while. is there is there any leverage not leverage but is there anything that we could perhaps expect any movement from the russians on syria? >> it doesn't feel like there is. i mean i think that you know putin's been pretty obstinate. he's backed into a corner. this sort of this propaganda sort of browbeating the u.s., calling kerry a liar is effective for him at home. i don't see a lot of hope for meaningful dialogue with the russians. on this messaging point the president started messaging this himself at the oval address or i'm sorry the rose garden address. you've seen kerr aen the shows. he did a press conference yesterday, there's another one tomorrow. so they're beginning this process. it's going to take some time. explaining international norms around chemical weapons is complicated. explaining the intelligence case in syria is complicated. explaining the policy is complicated because it's a mess over there. and so, that will happen. i don't think we should treat an

oval office address or obama going out and giving a speech as a panacea. i think we all remember the oil spill oval office address it doesn't solve the messaging problem there. >> no it did not, my friend. >> but it gives members of congress a little cover if the president has made his case to the american people. >> we shall see. it is as they say a fluid situation. former national security council spokesman, tommy, thank you as always. a programming note, tonight, grab the popcorn, get your computers out, get ready to tweet it, sex john kerry will join kerry will join chris hayes for an exclusive interview on all-in tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. coming up while syria is creating an international and internal conflict for democrats, it is also the subject of the latest chapter of the gop's existential crisis. we will discuss wacko birds moss covered hawks and plain old isolationists with one of the party's leading voices against intervention, former congressman ron paul.

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ron paul has been called the intellectual godfather of the tea party, and a libertarian ahead of his time. as proof, rewind to the year 1984 when ron paul foreshadowed the coming age of the surveillance state. >> computer surveillance seems appropriate for 1994, and unfortunately, the wave of the future. millions of tax dollars are spent on this type of computer surveillance, a disgusting procedure for a professed free society. the irony is that it's done by an administration that brags about its limited government philosophy. why is it that it's so difficult

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dizziness, drowsiness and decreased sweating. do not drive, operate machinery or do unsafe tasks until you know how toviaz affects you. the most common side effects are dry mouth and constipation. talk to your doctor about toviaz. after writing dozens of books, serving in congress for three decades, and running for president of the united states three times, ron paul has entered the realm of the world wide web. this summer the former texas congressman started the ron paul channel. otherwise known as the next chapter of the ron paul revolution. last week, paul sat down with wikileaks founder julian assange to discuss u.s. military action in syria, and exactly what julian assange thinks might be behind it. >> haven't you touched on this subject of somebody looking for an incident, you know, with

syria that would justify, you know, all the countries to come in, and the united states government to come in, the british government to come in, and do something in syria, was there something along that line that you've had discovered? >> that's right. they really felt that what they needed was for there to be some humanitarian outrage in syria. and once they had that that would legitimize going in from the big air strike. these companies never really gave a damn about syrians before. >> joining us now is former congressman from texas and host of the ron paul show, dr. ron paul. dr. paul, thanks so much for joining us and congratulations on the new endeavor. >> thank you very much. nice to be with you. >> nice to be with you, as well. i want to first ask you about the interview with julian assange and his contention that somehow the u.s. actually wanted this war. wanted a reason to go into syria. what do you think of that? >> well, i have to believe him.

i think he's probably getting it from the documents that he studied very thoroughly and i think one thing that's interesting what his predictions were, if something happened and they could justify that to go in and expand the war in syria. but it's not like ten years ago where you could bring up something and have these comments made and everybody would join and the u.n. would join and nato would join and the world would join in the war. today, it's a different world even though they have the incident they might have been hoping for something but now they have this gas, so-called gas deaths of the people, and they're accusing assad of all this, of all the killing, and the rebels haven't caused any trouble. but the world hasn't rallied that way. so i think it's a different world. i think it's a very significant event of what he was talking about. >> i have to ask you do you really think president obama is looking for a reason to go to war in syria? i mean this is a president who has been very public with his skepticism about war.

he took the he took an unprecedented action which was to curb executive power and involve congress in the, the decision making around military intervention. what did you think of that move last saturday? >> well, i thought it was pretty interesting. he was yielding to pressure and he was yielding to the vote. you know, in the british parliament. but i think there's some reason to say he muttly might not like this but i think the pressure comes from the people around him, the people who are always around all the presidents, all the leaders of the republicans, all the leads of the democrats, they all gather together so he's getting that pressure, and it might be contradicting some of his self-instincts. but just look at how the leadership of both parties have lined up. they're just thinking this is -- this is it. we have to stick together. >> but do you think that -- i'm sorry to interrupt you, dr. paul, but do you really think that everyone is lining up to go in. the wisdom now is it's anybody's guess what congress is going to do -- >> you're absolutely right. i'm talking about lining up a

leader shf. did you see the leadership of the house and the senate, republican and democrat? it's the same way when we wanted to curtail nsa. the leadership you know, finally, kept the power for the nsa. but the grassroots, the coalition that it's building, i think there's a historic event going on here, and if this is won, that is defeat the request to have more military approach to syria, i think it would be historic. because it will be a grand coalition of the libertarian republicans, and the democratic progressives, everybody's worried about the split in the democrats, the split in the republicans. i'm delighted with that split. because it's pushing people together who are on opposite ends of the spectrum, one which i enjoy. >> sir -- >> get the progressives to come together with the libertarian republicans and the constitutionallists and oppose these wars and protect civil liberties. >> you have to admit that they wouldn't have a chance to make their voices heard had they not been given the opportunity by

president obama. which is to say if he had not gone to congress with this they wouldn't have had a chance to vote. and i guess i can you do you not applaud the president for making that decision? >> no, this is pure political i mean, he still says he doesn't need the authority. all our presidents say we don't need authority. but if there's a public pressure to say, oh, let's give the congress a say, and it passes they give the congress a say, like we're very important and then they condone everything, we always condone essentially, everything the president wants to do. but today is different. today is different. the people are tired of this. the world's tired of it. the british are tired of it. when you think a british ally, when you think of how they were behind us on every bomb we ever dropped in the last 15 years, or 20 years all of a sudden they're breaking ranks. i think, i think this is -- but to come to the congress, it's not for constitutional reasons. i could have done that six months ago, or whenever. but he's coming under pressure, and maybe for political reasons.

all right, we'll make the congress say why are you doing this without our permission? let congress give him the permission and then they can all share the blame. so a lot of politics -- >> i would i guess we just we'll have to agree to differ on this point. because i do think the president it seems that the president made that decision totally on his own last weekend and without the support of his even his cloedest advisers but we'll move on to another subject and i do want to talk about the ron paul channel a little bit. i know you just interviewed your son rand paul and he also has taken a pretty strong stance on intervention. i wonder what is your consultation with rand paul like in terms of foreign policy these days? do you speak to him on the phone regularly? >> no, i don't. matter of fact, he goes his way and i go my way because we're pretty independent minded. but he obviously has views very similar to mine. and he has spoken out pretty strongly against this war. so i haven't sensed that he has much of a different position. >> can i ask about julian assange was obviously one of

your other guests and you spoke about the surveillance state something you've been warning against for decades now. in terms of surveillance, how confident are you that we are seeing the end of what has been termed the american empire in terms of a broad overreach in monitoring of american citizens? we haven't seen the end of it. tyrants and empires cling desperately and their best weapon is lying. if they can lie and take away the privacies and spy on the people they're very powerful. the people are waking up. i was encouraged by it. i was encouraged by the coalition of libertarians and progressive democrats coming together, so but we have a long way to go. we are threatened, and i think our biggest threat is from the tyrants in washington who would not protect our liberties. they'd destroy our first amendment, and they threaten people, whistle-blowers become, you know, criminals in their

charge with treason. so yes we have a long way to go, but i still think that the whole purpose is truth and openness. we need more openness in government, more privacy with the people and we need to just come home, and not have this conspiracy of our government to run all these wars in all of these -- all the wars have been based on lies. we haven't proven any lies yet from this administration. they claim they're not going to make the mistake that bush made about the lies. but, believe me, there's going to be found many, many deceptions, and the biggest deception is that we need to be there for national -- >> don't you -- >> you just admitted before that that we haven't seen any lies from this administration. don't you think that's sort of irresponsible? >> well, i think you need to repeat that again, because i missed a little bit of that. say that again, please? >> you contended that we haven't seen lies from this administration. but then went on to say we are sure to see deceptions come from

this administration. until you have seen deceptions or have evidence of lies is it not irresponsible to stoke the flames of distrust for this government? >> well, i'm going by his history, and i didn't get to finish that sentence before i was answering that, because the real deception, the grand deception is that we're doing this for national security. that is so bizarre. and at the same time, we do -- we fight these wars, we bankrupt our countries, we make more enemies and we ignore the fact that we use drones to kill kids and then we're going in there because some gas passed and 100,000 people were killed and they say oh, assad killed them on. today i saw this horrendous picture of the rebels, you know, murdering in cold blood, you know, some of the syrians that they had captured. so, yes, there's a lot of deception going on, and the whole -- and this gives them license at the same time our greatest threat is -- are our liberties here at hoemt.

our first amendment rights. our fourth amendment. that is where the real concern is and we're supposed to be concentrating on invading another country. and quit frankly if they were honest with us, some of the neocons are more honest with us on this, and it's the march to tehran. it's -- this is all to do with getting iran and taking that country over, we've been doing that since 1953. >> dr. paul, you -- >> people ask you why do they dislike us? >> yeah, dr. paul you talk a lot about liberty, and broad coalitions. and i think one of the you know one of the, the most hopeful signs for the gop is the broad coalition that you were able to put together in the last presidential race, young people, old people, middle aged people, which is really an outlyer within the current state of the republican party. but with your emphasis on liberty i have to ask you about some of the folks that are in your coalition. and this weekend you're going to be giving an address at the fatima center a conference in canada for the fatima center which has been called a

hard-koranty semite group. is this something that you would reconsider doing? >> no. as a catholic -- >> even -- go ahead. >> i even talk to republicans and they disagree with everything i say. you know, when i'm on a republican stage and i say we should have a foreign policy of a golden rule they boo me. i'm trying to convert people. but i'm -- i'm going to a conservative, catholic group that is pro-peace, and wants to hear my foreign policy and my take on economy. if i go only, i wouldn't be on this station if i had to have a litmus test. i mean, you have -- >> this station -- >> -- why can't i go there? >> yes. and we appreciate you coming on this station. put at the same time this station is not advocating as the fatima has of the duty incumbent upon catholics of combatting valiantly for the integral -- >> now you're categorizing -- >> and preaching about satan's

plans against the church among which include the granting of full citizenship to the jews. is your appearance at an event like this not some kind of endorsement of -- >> okay, what i would say is yes there are disagreements within the catholic church and they're debating it's theological. i have nothing to do with that. i'm not even going to pretend i know anything about that. sounds to me like you have me on here to bash catholics. >> i was raised catholic so that's the last thing i want to do. >> you ought to be more courteous to them and give them a break. why can't we have discussions with people that might have a difference. and i put up with a lot of this in the last 40 years, because not too many people agree. but why i'm excited, is the country is coming toward the way of peace, and this location of libertarians and progressives, we've had too much war, too much spending, too much federal reserve spending of money and that's what's important. for you to bring this stuff up about the infractions of some group that i have no idea what

their theology is all about, i don't even have any idea why you do things like that. >> well, because, dr. paul, this -- >> it just astounds me. >> there have been a lot of folks that have been involved with your campaign, supporters, there have been newsletters that have been accredited to you that have strong anti-semitic racist undertones and i think the american public is curious about how you endorse or do not endorse or deny involvement with any of that. and that, that's why it's a relevant line of questioning. city same time -- >> so i've had that you know the first month after i was elected in 1976 i had a picture in a magazine. i was practicing physician for all those years, and i run for office, i had no expectation of winning, i win, i'm totally innocent, the first month they put my picture in a magazine with a swastika. so this is just horrible. it just goes on. when people disagree with you on ideas they have to destroy your character. that's what they do. the main reason i get attacked from every -- anybody like you, it's because there's

disagreement on my foreign policy. i want peace and i don't want to support the war mongers. so you have to go after some of these characters. >> i don't think that that constitutes a character attack dr. paul but we really do appreciate you coming on the show and talking about the ideas that are dear to you, and your hope for the country. thanks for your time. >> you had your chance. i hope i had my chance for my answers. >> thank you very much, dr. ron paul host of the ron paul channel. thanks for your time. after the break, a new report suggests that john boehner could soon be swilling merlot and working on his golf swing full time. is the speaker headed for the exit door? we will examine the scenarios and possible impact. ♪ ♪ wonder if i gave an oreo ♪ to somebody out there who i didn't know ♪ ♪ would they laugh after i'd gone? ♪ ♪ or would they pass that wonder on? ♪ ♪ i wonder how it'd change your point of view ♪

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that he leaves. it's the overwhelming working assumption as people are making strategy going into 2015 and 2016. as jonathan writes in new york magazine this is possibly the most encouraging political news of the year as boehner feels liberated to flee the house and suddenly all sorts of governing possibilities open up. he can lift the debt ceiling and keep the government running. he can sign immigration reform, even cut a deal on the budget. alex, i don't know, i know david is -- >> boy cold water. i got cold water here. >> before we get that i mean i do i agree with jonathan. he has held the keys for a very long sometime on big legislative priorities. >> there's no doubt about that. and i love jonathan but i'm going to have to disagree with him. if he leaves now what has he accomplished so far? basically nothing. he's presided over the least productive congress. >> his repealed -- >> most unpopular congress ever. they go to capitol hill they name buildings after former speakers. he's not getting a building.

he's probably not even going to get a bathroom named after him. is he going to take his last time in office to break the hastert rule a million times and pass the democratic agenda and betray his base? >> david i want to get you in here. i don't think it's about boehner capitulating to the democrats. i think it is him understanding the future of the republican party, immigration reform has support among the gop, and understanding that that is going to set his party on a better path going forward. >> listen i love the folks at huffington post but the story is that he's considering not -- >> right. >> we're getting ahead of ourselves. let's not have the parade yet. i know how much you want this. but even so if he took any of those steps that your political fantasy would hold, he'll be status as speaker and you'd have eric cantor. things would be no better. >> what would get done in the interim? >> here's the thing, alex -- >> it's not christmas yet. >> the thing you have to that i am thinking of is in that

interim period when he might be trying to think about what he does after congress like working in a lobbying firm he's not going to do anything. he's not going to do anything that would jeopardize his future in conservative circles. that's why i don't so much think that we're going to see this -- >> so it's just going to be more status quo, even if he -- >> he's not going to run into a fell phone booth and rip off his clothes and come out this superhero. >> he would be ripping off his clothes to reveal a suit and tie. we have to take a short break but coming up, just when fans of reasoned facts and empirically based theories thought it was safe to go back into the water along swims florida republican congressman ted yo hoe. keep that name in mind. yesterday yoho, we will talk birther buffoons next.

we've had every official in hawaii, democrat and republican,

every news outlet that has investigate this, confirm that, yes, in fact, i was born in hawaii august 4th, 1961. we posted the certification that is given by the state of hawaii on the internet for everybody to see. >> it has been 162 days since president obama released his long form birth certificate in a bid to end the side show and silence the carnival barkers. but more than two years later there are still republicans who insist on turning the capitol building into the big top. >> so you accept the fact that he was a born american? >> i'm not -- no comment. >> no comment? now you say he's legitimate then you say but i don't think he's really necessarily native-born american, natural born american. >> i didn't say that. i just said no comment. what you said -- >> what does that mean? >> what i would like to say is i

haven't studied it enough to spend the time on it to come back with an intelligence answer so i will not respond. >> a note to republican congressman ted yoho. you can go on whitehouse.gov right now and see the president's birth certificate. it is one page long, and it lists the date, time and location of his birth. which took place in the united states of america. until then, congressman, we await your intelligent answer. after the break, the nra joins the aclu in a lawsuit against the nsa's phone record collection program. never mind the nra's own data collection program. we will discuss next.

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the aclu has an unexpected backer in its lawsuit challenging nsa phone surveillance. yesterday the nra, as in the national rifle association,

announced its support for a lawsuit brought against the security agency saying that collecting phone records could allow the registration of guns or gun owners. never mind that the very same nra secretly collected data on millions of americans in order to lobby against gun safety laws, as buzzfeed reported last month the gun lobby has built a massive secret data base of tens of millions of americans, including people who are not members of the nra, and uses that database to boost membership and promote political causes. david corn, which is, what is worse here the nsa's database or the nra's? >> i won't get to the hypocrisy argument because that's too obvious. the key thing is the nra is joining this lawsuit because they say if the nsa has your phone records the government can go in and see if you're calling a gun store to place an order, and therefore create a gun -- a gun owner's registry which is the nuttiest paranoid conspiracy but the whole organizing campaign of the nra, the

organizing principle, is conspiracy and paranoia, you know, really -- >> and sales. and sales. >> exactly. but they can also take all of that data, marketing data, targeting data, and sell it. which is what they do, right? that's part of how they make money is on the sales of things like bullets. they have all kinds of partnerships, no question. they're selling that marketing data. so you know, you've got to wonder why are these people not paranoid about how the nra is using their data? at least ask for a cut of what they're spending. >> they will take their gun away. >> if they were really worried about a national gun data base they've already created it. it's ready made. the nsa needs to walt in and say here's a subpoena, thank you very much. >> if it happened to the nra, it's all done. >> let me ask you something, alex, do you think, i mean we talk a lot about public opinion and the tide of public opinion over surveillance and i wonder to what degree you know there's a civil liberties folks there's the left that is against the encroaching surveillance or the existing surveillance state that

is monitoring our communications, then you can i mean if you get gun enthusiasts on board with that, other spectrum of civil libertarians i mean does that then create a groundswell of support for curbing the power and the influence of the nsa? >> i mean there's no doubt that the gun owners are on board with this. can you look at the farthest to the right like the alex jones people and they've been talking about this stuff forever. they happened to get it right in the nsa case. but whether there's enough people there to really change things i don't know. when you have people like ron paul being your flag carriers, it's not exactly the kind of thing people want to get behind. >> i wish you could ask all of those people how they feel about the reports that the fbi is now more closely looking at syrian americans. i'd like to challenge, you know, for those who have so much outrage about the nsa, and what they do, and our freedoms and our civil liberties, how do they feel about that story, what the question that i would like. >> before we go, karen i wanted to say this specifically for you, because it's a -- i think it's a ray of light in an otherwise dark hour of television, in 2011, the state

of texas, this is not -- this is not the light part the state of texas ended reproductive health services for thousands of low income women by blocking funding for planned parenthood clinics. enter ross perot. his dallas foundation donated $1 million this week to planned parenthood of texas, in a statement perot's wife margo said we are impressed with the work they do, providing, check it out karen, birth control, sciencivically based education, breast health exams and basic life saving health care for women who cannot afford services otherwise. round of applause for margo perot. >> acknowledging that planned parenthood does good things for women's health. and who was behind it? the woman. the wife. >> well but at the same time credit to someone who is seen as a conservative focusing on the good that planned parenthood does in a claimate where they are the focus of so much hate. >> and in a state where they've

been so decimated and demonized to be able to kind of go above that and say wait a second, they provide really important services. scientifically based services, even, how about that? i thought that was a sin in the gop to have believe in any kind of science. >> but it is -- >> ross perot is not a republican. he ran as an independent. libertarian. and indeed, the other republican millionaires in texas who have come to the rescue of planned parenthood. so, the establishment republicans, which include the bush family, remember they used to, remember -- >> i remember them, yes. >> the first george h.w. bush was a big fan of international family planning. >> yes. >> so there is this texas tradition of getting behind groups like planned parenthood, and ross pro-and his family has just put down a big chip on that. >> i will note before we leave alex the texas medicaid program is bracing for the cost of an additional 24,000 births as a result of reduced access to family planning services, each birth will cost the state roughly $11,000. so much for wending the welfare

state and cutting the social safety net. >> and then how many more people are going to need to get food stamps and medicare while they're slashing it so maybe they won't even be there for them. >> oh, long-term planning. all right we started like it was almost going to end on a positive note but. >> let's do it. >> it's like moths to a flame. thank you to david, alex and karen. i'll see you back here tomorrow at noon eastern when i'm joined by eugene robinson, richard wolf, steve cook and colorado state senator angela herren. until then you can follow us on wait toer @nowwithalex. andrea mitchell reports is coming up next. [ male announcer ] this is brad. his day of coaching begins with knee pain, when... [ man ] hey, brad, want to trade the all-day relief of two aleve for six tylenol? what's the catch? there's no catch. you want me to give up my two aleve for six tylenol? no.

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qaeda was a majority of the rebel force. today, president obama works the sidelines of the summit. trying to persuade allies to get on board. >> i also look forward to having an extensive conversation about the situation in syria and i think our joint recognition that the use of chemical weapons in syria is not only a tragedy but also a violation of international law that must be addressed. >> but the president's policy is facing strong pushback here at home. congress deeply divided. the senate foreign relations committee voted to support the president 10-7. but added time limits and requirements that he come up with a strategy for syria within 30 days. and so far the house isn't buying it. >> not one member in my district in south carolina or the e-mails of people that have contacted my office say go to syria and fight this regime. to a letter, they say no. >> i'm not going to sit here and be told by you that i don't have the sense of what the juden