8:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. we'll see you in an hour. "hardball" starts right now. surrounded. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in new york. let me open tonight with this. you know what it look like when a team is on its own 1 yard line, just a yard from being tackled in its own end zone. it would be generous to say that's where president obama now stands in his fight to win congressional approval of an attack on syria. the latest polling tells a grimmer story. 223 members of the 435 member house of representatives are now listed as either no or leaning no on the resolution. that is not a good field position for the president.

to win the fight next week, the president needs to not only convince the undecideds, but also many of those who right now are heading toward a vote against him. either that or have already committed to voting against him. we'll see whether a presidential address next tuesday will change members' positions. we will see whether nancy pelosi can pull together the almost 170 votes she needs on the democratic side to get the yes vote up to the necessary 217 house majority. i don't expect either the president or pelosi can expect much help from the republican rank and file. the problem is that this country is divided right now between the usual hawks, many of whom unfortunately hate obama, and the doves who usually hate war that leaves the dangerously lonely middle and an enormous amount of yardage in both directions, left as well as right. former white house senior adviser david axelrod is a msnbc analyst. and david fineman of "the huffington post." howard recently interviewed

secretary of state john kerry. let me go through this. are you surprised at this number came out overnight coming out of the congress which is based upon apparently individual polling and public statements has more than a majority against this proposition of bombing iran -- bombing syria? >> well, first of all, i think we should note, and you did i think 100 or so say they're leaning that way, which means they haven't made a final decision. but look, chris, this is a tough, tough issue. this is a country that is weary of war. i helped barack obama in 2008 become president. and one of the reasons he was elected was because he had the foresight in 2002 to object to the war in iraq. and his observations were prescient about that war. and now we're living with the aftermath of that. so i'm not surprised. and obviously there is work to be done to make the case. but this isn't iraq. it is a very different kind of

situation, and the cost of not acting now is just so high. and i believe that at the end of the day, members of congress, enough members of congress may be persuaded that that's the case. that the situation is different. that it is discrete and that there are grave consequence if they don't act. >> that's all true. howard, it seems to me the problem presents itself in the way i described it. a good half of this country is hawkish, but they don't like obama. in fact, many of them hate obama. the other half of the country, just to be crude about it is dovish, but they don't like war. so where are these people who are for obama and want this act of war to be committed? because that seems to be a narrow middle. and that seems to be the president's problem, if there is a middle. >> well, it's interesting to see the dynamics in congress, chris. during those hearings the other day, the chairpersons in the middle, like the center of the

dais was sympathetic to the president in large. but the farther you got out to the wings of both parties, as you went down the rows there, the more skeptical people became. and that's true in the country as a whole. and i did interview secretary of state kerry yesterday for "the huffington post." and he is at ground zero right now while the president is away at the summit. john kerry, former senator, is having to deal with the fears and the angst of a lot of democratic members who are coming to him and saying assure me that we're not going to get into a quagmire here. my constituents don't want another quagmire. and kerry's whole message is this is about chemical weapons. it's not about a civil war. but it's very hard to get that message through to skeptical democratic members. senators, house members who back in their district or in their states are being told by 50-1 their own consistents don't want it. >> well, the problem is it isn't that clean of vote because you have this whole mccain sidecar thrown on this resolution,

howard. and i think that's the problem. >> right. >> because mccain drove a very hard bargain. he said not only do we have to attack them in a punitive raid because of using chemical, we now have to basically side with real strong support for the rebels. we have to find good rebels to support. if you're asking members of congress to say not only get even or revenge or attack or punishment for using chemical. >> right. >> we have to take sides in a civil war. and howard, that's not an easy sale. i'm not sure progressives are for that. >> no, that's exactly right. and i know i've talked to senators and house members on the democratic side who cite that now, what senator kerry says in anticipation i'm sure of what the president is going to say next week, secretary kerry says, well, look, the congress has already on record as saying that it would like to see regime change in syria. and we'd like to support the rebels with various kinds of materiel in noncombat kinds of ways. that's true. but the problem is if you take that language and stick it into a resolution that involves an

act of war which is to attack syria, that's what gets the democratic grassroots upset, as i'm sure david nose. >> i want to go back to david on that that very question. it seems to me, remember how henry kissinger was a genius at going around, maybe he wasn't being totally frank, to put it lightly. he would go from the arab side to the israeli side, whisper different things in their ears. in the old days before he had tape recordings and television, you could get away with that. now we find charles kraut hammer who is smart as a whip. i don't agree with him normally. but he said i want the president to say out loud what he promised mccain and lindsey graham that we're going to back these rentals. he may even lose the senate if he gets too hawkish here. >> actually, i don't know that that's the case. i think howard's point is right, though. it's the connection of the two, the notion that there would be military action on behalf of the rebels that involved american hardware and american personnel. that's the thing that concerns

people. you guys have identified the exact -- >> are you for this, david? are you for this sidecar thing of not just making sure we've kept the record straight on the principle of opposing the use of chemical, but this idea that we should get heavily involved in picking out the good guys on the rebel side and arming them. are you for that? >> well, the sidecar in the resolution says less than that. it says it changed the momentum on the battlefield. >> it says -- i read it all, david. it says all forms of aid to those groups. >> right. >> all forms of aid. it wasn't just a tilting there. it was helping them. >> the reality is that if we knock out some of these capacities of assad, then it will help the rebels. so in a sense i think you -- it answers its own question. >> but it doesn't just say that. it says degrade the military power of assad and upgrade -- it says that in the resolution --

upgrade that of the rebels. this goes much further than i think you want to go. >> but what howard said is true. the congress is already on the record as saying they want -- they want to upgrade the capacity of the rebels. the real -- look, there are no good answers here, chris. let's be clear. this is a very, very unhappy choice. but the real question is what does it say if this gets voted down? what does it say to the world? about the united states. the international enormous on things like chemical weapons. what is the outcome of that? it can't be good. i think we have to take a longer view. this president who i know very, very well is as allergic to unnecessary intervention as anybody i know. i don't think that he is looking

to involve us in a deep conflict there. he is looking to endeavor a discreet mission here to make a very important point to knock out their capacities. but the danger is that a man of principle, and let's accept him as that, could get us into a situation with unintended consequences, no matter how tailored to use their word the instrument is. that's the fear at least among the democrats. >> let's go back to "hardball" here. been very ably brought out there by david axelrod. according to this whip, if a vote on the syria resolution were held today, 223 members of congress, far more than the 217 on either side needed to be the majority are already against or leaning that way. the number would kill the resolution, of course. only 25 members out of 435 are now in faf of the strikes. that's 25 members up front right now. it's the same story argument a

similar story taken by the abc news organization, which says again, a majority of house of representatives are against the resolution. that's enough to beat it. if you look at the polls, it's hardly surprise the house is crooning toward a no vote. the polls taken in the last week show public opposition to air strikes in syria. a pew poll released a few days ago has opposition at 48% which is far greater than the percentage that support the option. it and that's eight points higher than those who support it. it's 60% against strikes in the most recent "washington post"/abc poll. again, david, does this president have the potency to go on television next tuesday. i would recommend going to the chamber for a joint session, because he looks better there and carries more weight, and higher risk. but it would be more powerful. can he turn around this kind of polling? >> well, i don't know that he can turn the polling around completely. can he make a case that enough members of congress will receive

about what their shared responsibilities are in the face of this kind of blatant act that we've seen in syria? i think that's possible. i don't think it's just his speech, although i've been a strong advocate for this speech. i think it's absolutely necessary. >> should he go to the chamber? >> well, he has obviously made the decision not to. i think you make a very good point. >> stronger, much stronger when you're in the chamber. >> but he plainly -- it sounds like he is going to speak from the white house. i think that's where he is going to speak from. but i also think he has to mobilize other voices. it's not just his voice. >> i know. >> his voice is the most important, but he has to mobilize other voices. and they really need to focus on the consequences of inaction here. i think those are very profound. >> howard, just to make my point, help me out here if you agree. is it more power for him to go into the lion's den and stand there as head of the country, commander in chief, speak to those people surrounding him. when you sit behind that desk, i'm not sure he or many

presidents look that strong. i think reagan did. but it's very hard to be overwhelming strong from sitting behind that desk. i think. what do you think? >> well, chris, i think if the president is going to get this done, he doesn't have weeks or months to build public support in the country. he's got to cut right to the chase and go right to the members of congress. and i think basically shame them, attempt to shame them morally into action here. that's his strongest argument. >> does he show up? >> that's what i'm saying. so according to that, if that's what he's got to do to go to the chamber and look them in the eye, show them the pictures from -- show them the pictures from syria, and look them in the eye and say look, the world has said this shall not happen. we've got to take action. we can't rely on others to do it. we are the united states. we've got to do it. and we can't let these types of weapons potentially loose in the region.

i wouldn't stress that, because as soon as you do that, questions arise. and i know this from speaking to secretary kerry. questions arise about how you control those weapons if you attack the systems, about who the rebels are, about who the opposition is, all that other stuff. >> yeah, great. >> skip all that and just focus on the moral equation about using chemical weapons. that's his strongest argument. and for that he should make it directly. >> very forceful, howard fineman, thank you, david axelrod. you did a great job. we'll see how this develops by tuesday. coming up, if you really want to know what the people think, go to a town hall meeting, if you dare, like john mccain dared to do. >> this is what i think of congress. they are a bunch of marshmallows. that's what they are. that's what they have become. why are you not listening to the people and staying out of syria? it's not our fight. >> well, that's the first time i've ever heard anybody call john mccain a marshmallow right to his face. congress members are taking

this. they're hearing it loud and clear in town meetings on the debate on whether we should get involved in syria. it's out there in the land right now. we'll be joined by republican members of congress who oppose the military strike and a democrat who is for it. also, boot in mouth disease? designer kenneth cole learned again why it's a bad idea to make jokes about war, including syria. and let me finish tonight with a member of the greatest generation who lived for his family. and that is "hardball," a place for politics. ♪ ♪ we go, go, we don't have to go solo ♪ ♪ fire, fire, you can take me higher ♪ ♪ take me to the mountains, start a revolution ♪ ♪ hold my hand, we can make, we can make a contribution ♪ ♪ brand-new season, keep it in motion ♪ ♪ 'cause the rhyme is the reason ♪ ♪ break through, man, it doesn't matter who you're talking to ♪

[ male announcer ] completely redesigned for whatever you love to do. the all-new nissan versa note. your door to more. ♪ well, the unemployment numbers for august are in. the labor department reports the economy added 169,000 jobs last month. that's a lot. unemployment rate ticked down.3%. but when you dig inside the numbers, this picture isn't that great. a big reason why the unemployment rate dropped because more americans stopped looking for work last month so, they're no longer counted as unemployed. that was a lot of people getting jobs. job claims were revised sharply downward. i think 169 is pretty good.

if you raise your hand if you're opposed to military strikes so i can get a sense. >> welcome back to "hardball" that was congressman justin amish, a republican from michigan speaking a few days ago at a town hall in his home state. the lack of support for intervention in syria, you saw there, is hardly an isolated case among constituents in the country. yesterday senator john mccain, the senate's most prominent hawk saw a flood of wrath from angry voters from a town hall who want nothing to do with syria. >> this is what i think of congress. they're a bunch of marshmallows. that's what they are. that's what they have become. why are you not listening to the people and staying out of syria? it's not our fight. >> you can do it by negotiation, by diplomacy. and negotiation. not bombs, senator mccain. you need to also to the listen of the majority of the american people who do not want you to go

there. this is -- this is not an issue that we can fix so lightly, senator mccain. >> i would much rather use our taxpayers' money to take care of our vets that are coming home from the two conflicts we've already been in. >> i don't think i need to be lectured to about veterans, okay. all right. so anyway. >> even that didn't go over well. congressman rick crawford, by the way, a republican from kansas says 99% of the calls to his office are against action in syria. u.s. congressman mike fitzpatrick from bucks county, pennsylvania said he received 126 calls opposing military engagement, and only one call in favor. i believe that from bucks county. it's not just republicans either. senator bernie sanders of vermont saying almost unanimous people saying do not get involved and brad sherman from congress says i don't know a member of congress whose e-mails and phone calls are in favor of this. we're joined by elijah cummings

from maryland. he has expressed serious doubts but hasn't ruled of voting in favor of the syria regulation. and juan vargas of california has come out in favor of strike. i want to start with mr. vargas. i haven't met you before, sir. where are you on this, and more importantly, where are your constituents to start with? >> well, my constituents generally are not in favor of it. i think it's like the rest of the country. but i certainly am. i've in favor of this. you've used these type of weapons. these weapons should never be used. and the amount of children that killed with this, the grownups, everybody else, we have to do something. and if the rest of the world does not want to come along, we have to do it ourselves. we can't allow this to stand. >> what about the other part of the resolution, that mccain jammed in there that talks about aiding the rebels? are you confident taking sides in this fight? >> not really. i don't like that aspect as much because we don't know who the good guys and who the bad guys are. we say some are better than the rest. they all look pretty bad to me. the issue of the chemical

weapons and gassing all these children. i mean, how high does the pile of children have to be before we're outrage and say we're going to do something about it? i mean they killed hundreds of kids. we ought to do something about it. >> mr. cummings, your view in this. most importantly, what are you hearing from your people in maryland? >> first of all, my constituents, i would say 95% of the people i've heard from are against it. and, chris, they have the backdrop of iraq. in other words, they know that we went to war on inaccurate information. they know we spent hundreds of billions of dollars. they know most importantly that we've lost so many of our young people, many of them from my district and from maryland. and they -- they feel -- they don't feel -- they don't sound as angry as they did at that mccain meeting. but i can tell you i did a walk throughout my district yesterday with some nbc reporters. and to a person, and they were

very thoughtful. every single person we approached was well informed on this issue and every one of them said we don't want it. but the other interesting thing, chris, i asked them. remember, we voted 80% for the president in my district. they said we love the president. we respect the president. but we just don't want to see us going back in this area, going into syria. and i got to tell you, i was listening to fineman in your last segment. >> yes. >> i think it was fineman. and he was saying that the president has to address us congressmen and senators. he doesn't have to only do that. the reason i've been pushing for him to address us is because i want him to address my constituents so that they can -- >> how does he do that between now and next week? >> no, he is going to do it on tuesday. i think it's going to be one of the most significant speeches of his career. and i think he has to lay out the moral argument. that i do agree with fineman. >> you know how television

works. it's always much more dramatic. it's a big picture when the president walks -- reagan, i just read a book about it. reagan said when he walked into the chamber, it's unbelievable feeling there is such drama when you walk into the chamber of the united states house of representatives on national television. isn't that more dramatic than sitting in his office? >> i would love to see him in the chamber. i think that would be an ideal place. >> mr. vargas, would that help make your case in the president thought had the same passion you've talked about the evils of chemical weapons used? would that be more dramatic if he showed up? >> absolutely. oh, he should show up. it would be the right thing to do. i've known barack for a long time. we went to law school together. he is a great orator. having a group like that around, i think he could make his argument not only to us, but to the whole world why we have to do this. i agree with you. standing behind -- or sitting behind the desk, that's not going to do it. go to the chamber. talk to the people directly. and then hang around and let us talk to him too. i think he could convince a lot

of people. he shouldn't be afraid to do it. >> mr. vargas, thanks for coming in. here he is, the president of the united states overseas now, of course, asked about congressional resistance to the syrian intervention at a press conference in russia. this is by the way today. this is his message to members of congress. >> ultimately, you listen to your constituents, but you've also got to make some decisions about what you believe is right for america. and that's the same for me as president of the united states. this are a whole bunch of decisions that i make that are unpopular, as you well know. but i do so because i think they're the right thing to do. >> well, mr. cummings, i've talked to you so many times. now a philosophical question. are you an edmund burk guy who believes you owe your judgment to your people back home, not just your vote, your judgment. >> i believe i owe a lot of judgment to my constituents. but i also know something else, chris. and after listening, going through three of these

classified briefings now, one of the things that i keep in mind is that i'm getting information that my constituents don't even know. and i can't disclose it to them. that's a -- >> qualitatively, what does it tell you? you don't have to give me the details obviously. what does it do to you that you think should be done to your people in terms of a message? >> i think it helps me with regard to what my good friend mr. vargas is saying. i mean, you get a better -- i mean, side that the president is talking about, the significance of the event, a lot of the moral issues and why we've got to do this. >> yeah. >> and how we're going to do it. but there is still a lot of questions that i need answered. but, again, i can understand vargas' feelings, because i feel the same way. i'm concerned too when i see children lying down dead after being gassed. i mean, anybody with any kind of heart has to feel that.

but at the same time i want to make sure we don't go in and do harm. >> mr. vargas, i've got to give you the edmund burk question. do you owe your own judgment, is it as important as your polling in your district, when you make a judgment of conscience like this? >> i'm a former jesuit. i always make the decision based on what i think is right. i hope the constituents come along. but if not, i make the decision and that's the way it has to be. >> i like even more that you're a former jesuit. i went to holy cross. thank you. i like this kind of conversation. it's really what our country is about. elijah cummings and juan vargas, members of congress. up next, what has bill clinton so excited about his lunch with former president george bush? i think he is like a son in many ways. this is interesting. "hardball," the place for politics. changes in the brain. little things anyone can do. it steals your memories. your independence. ensures support, a breakthrough. and sooner than you'd like. sooner than you'd think.

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back to "hardball." it's time for the sideshow. amid clashes in syria and edward snowden, the awkward personal relationship between president obama and vladimir putin was put to the test yesterday in st. petersburg where both leaders participated in the g-20 summit. but putin, who was famous for promoting his tough guy image with ridiculous photographs like this actually tried to avoid contact actually with obama this time around. according to "the guardian" newspaper, the kremlin actually rearranged the seating to separate the two leaders one from the other at a dinner the imperial palace last night. but "the tonight show's" jay leno imagined what could have happened last night. >> you know, putin is still -- you know, he's got this whole macho thing going. did you see them when they met today? it was so dramatic. show putin. here is the president arriving. look at this. this he is. now watch. now here comes putin. look, there is no -- what is that?

next, designer kenneth cole's getting a lot of attention as new york's fashion week kicks off, but he may be proving not all press is good press. in a quote referring to a debate over war in syria, saying boots on the ground or not, let's not forget about sandals, pumps, and loafers, #footwear. saying he just wanted to provoke a dialogue. it's not the first time cole has tried to capitalize on conflict in the middle east. back in 2011, he claimed that the arab spring uprisings in cairo were a reaction to his new spring collection. and speaking of famous footwear, former president bush's socks are making news again because bill clinton wants a pair for himself. after breaking bread yesterday, clinton tweeted enjoyed my annual lunch with president and mrs. bush in maine, envious of his cactus themed saugus. #sockswag. one for military action, one

against. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. as your life changes, fidelity is there for your personal economy, helping you readjust along the way, refocus as careers change and kids head off to college, and revisit your investments as retirement gets closer. wherever you are today, fidelity's guidance can help you fine-tune your personal economy. start today with a free one-on-one review of your retirement plan.

♪ we go, go, we don't have to go solo ♪ ♪ fire, fire, you can take me higher ♪ ♪ take me to the mountains, start a revolution ♪ ♪ hold my hand, we can make, we can make a contribution ♪ ♪ brand-new season, keep it in motion ♪ ♪ 'cause the rhyme is the reason ♪ ♪ break through, man, it doesn't matter who you're talking to ♪ [ male announcer ] completely redesigned for whatever you love to do. the all-new nissan versa note. your door to more. ♪

i'm milissa rehberger. here is what is happening. about a impromptu meeting for president obama and vladimir putin at the g-20 summit where they discussed military action in syria but failed to reach an agreement. aaron hernandez was in court today pleading not guilty to first-degree murder and other charges connected to the killing of his friend oden lloyd. shaquille o'neal joined first lady michelle obama in d.c. to help promote her schools program. back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." president obama needs 217 members of the house to support

his resolution. as we showed you earlier, the latest whip count from "the washington post" has 223 members in the no category, or leaning no. only 25 are for the resolution. we have two members of congress now from different catches joining us to debate the issue. u.s. congressman tom cole is a republican from oklahoma. he will vote no. u.s. congressman ted deutch is a congressman from florida who will vote yes. i want to start with mr. cal. were you for the iraq war? i'm trying to find some consistency here. were you a hawk for the war in iraq and now a dove? is there any consistency there? >> i was not 234 congress when the original vote was taken. i was certainly supportive for the war and if i had been there, i would have supported it. if that's your designation, i would have been a hawk. >> why did you change? >> first of all, thing is a different kind of war. and it's a pretty nasty war. it's a civil war. it's a proxy war between the saudis and the iranians and it's also a religious war. second, i don't see immediate american vital interests at

stake here or any of our allies. we haven't been attacked. they haven't been attacked. third, i don't think the measures that the president are proposing are going to make much of a difference. to me they're much more of a gesture than a real policy or strategy. >> mr. deutsch, what is your view on this? i don't know your past positions. maybe you didn't have one on the iraq war. but i assume you're against it. maybe i'm wrong. >> no, no, i was against the iraq war. i wasn't in congress. i was against it. >> because this is very different. in the iraq war, we had a 39 who was hell bent on going to war to take down a regime. they had to manufacture evidence to get us into that war. that's why i opposed it. in this case, we have footage, very powerful footage and very powerful evidence that assad gassed his own people. and we have 189 countries who were on record. the entire civilized world is on record saying that you cannot use chemical weapons. you can't gas your own people. we have a moral obligation, a human rights obligation, and a strategic obligation to take some action now. very limited, but some.

>> i just talked to senator boxer. it seems like the same argument. it isn't about the congressional leadership. it's about her view of this thing. so you would say it on the merits, having nothing to do with your party designation. >> right. no. this is not about party at all. this is absolutely about the merits and what the cost of inaction would be. the fact is one, we have a human rights moral obligation. we have to act with our allies to ensure that the world is clear that you can't use chemical weapons. you can't gas your own people. >> if mitt romney were president now, to be somewhat speculative. he was close. if he were president now, would you support the same action? >> sure. this is not a question about party. this is a question about how we respond when there is a moral interest and a strategic interest. >> mr. cole, same question to you on the other side. would you support this? would you be for this measure if it was supported by the republicans, say like george w. bush? >> no, i would not. frankly, i think we have learned some hard lessons in the last

decade. if we went to war every time somebody did this, we would have been at war, we would have intervene in iraq on the side of the iranians in the 1980s and intervened again when saddam used this against their own people. >> suppose he does it again and again and again? at what point would you say no more, no mas? >> i don't think this has been the first time. look, there is pretty compelling evidence he has been doing this for a while. but i think at the end of the day, you know, when it's -- it's not as if the other side is some sort of paragon of virtue. >> i know. but where is your limit here? >> there is a lot of butchery going on. >> what is your limit? how many times can he kill his own people with chemical in this case, sarin apparently, sarin gas before you say enough? >> well, i'm not -- the real question to me, am i willing to risk american lives to go in there. we're not the only power in the region. you know, the turks, the saudis have an interest there. the idea that we always have to do it, at least, you know, in

the first iraq war, even in the second there was a considerably more tangible international support. there is just simply not much here. and the idea that we're going to enforce this everywhere. does this mean if russia decided to use chemical weapons against the chechnyans that we would intervene there against a nuclear power? i don't think so. so i think you've got to look at this realistically. and so far no clear mission. >> let me go to mr. deutsch on this. >> sure. >> second part on this because of the complicated nature of political compromise. because john mccain and alliance with lindsey graham were able to get the democrats formulations committee to add on language, it's called section 5, which really does tilt us in this war saying we change the momentum, all forms of aid, including lethal aid to the groups we like fighting the government this. are you concerned this is going to drag us into this war, because we're clearly taking sides. >> well, first of all, i'm not going to support a resolution that is not limited in scope, that doesn't limit -- >> but that has passed the

senate. this is where it's at. it's passed the senate formulations committee. >> right. and we'll see what -- we'll see if this comes over or not. the fact is we're not going to do anything with this authorization, and we shouldn't to give the president authority that he doesn't already have. but chris, remember, it's not just the fear of inaction. what happens to assad and whether he continues to gas his own people. congressman cole and i and all of congress, 400 members voted to impose sanctions on iran right before we left in july. and those sanctions will only work if the supreme leader understands that our word means something. that's also what this is about. it's about sending a message not just to syria to stop the gas -- >> do you believe you can send -- here is my concern. we don't know how to talk to a mullah. we don't know whether they're religious driven. they're not secular people like us. they're driven by theology and history. we don't know whether attacking a shia ally is going to heat them up even more so. >> right. >> sometimes when you punch

somebody, they get more of a fighter. they don't say don't punch me again. they say go ahead, punch me again. how do you know it's going to work the way you think? >> we do know this. we know our policy with respect to iran stopping the spread of nuclear weapons to iran and then all throughout the middle east is based on sanctions and a credible threat of military force. >> yeah. >> if we show that our word doesn't mean anything, then that credible threat is gone. and it increases the likelihood that we may find ourselves in a military confrontation with iran. nobody wants that. >> same question to you, sir. even steven here, mr. deutsch. congressman, suppose the guy we're going after here, the president gets this approved. he goes and attacks, a very strong attack against these facilities. perhaps their chemical facilities, whatever, maybe the oil refineries in damascus in that country, and he does it again. then what? he uses chemical again. now what do we do? do we keep hitting him? do we get in a war? >> if the argument is we're going to attack a country that hasn't attacked us to deliver a

message to a second country, i just find that unpersuasive. and look, the argument really isn't between ted and myself. the argument right now is really between the foreign policy elite in washington, d.c. and the american people. because i don't care what district you live in or where you're at, or you're democrat, republican, conservative, liberal, opinion is overwhelmingly against this. and using military power when the american people overwhelmingly oppose it i think is a very risky proposition. and it is actually much more likely to put us in the position -- >> mr. cole, last question. have you sat in on the classified briefs? >> yes, i have. flew back last week. >> and they didn't change your mind? >> no, they did not. >> docongressman deutsch, did y sit in on the briefs? >> yes. i've been briefed. the evidence is clear, first of all. the video footage, i hope that people have an opportunity to see the footage of bodies, young bodies, young children wrapped in shrouds as their mothers try to come to determine which is

their child that was gassed to death. and we have to ask ourselves whether we're permitted, whether the world is willing to permit assad to continue to do that to his people. today it's 1400 people in damascus. next time it could be 14,000 or 140,000 in aleppo there is a moral obligation, a strategic obligation. and i'm not prepared to defer to the russians to let them veto our moral and strategic operations. that's what is at stake here. >> gentlemen, it's an honor to have you on. it's a great debate for america. congressman tom cole and congressman ted deutch. doing real damage to their state's image. i went to school down there. i'm really interested in this. this is deteriorating down there. something about north carolina is turning off the rest of the country, and it was never like this before. this is "hardball," the place for politics. [ male announcer ] i've seen incredible things.

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back in a moment with how the republican agenda in north carolina is really hurting that one state big-time. "hardball" back after this. my asthma's under control.

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the all-new nissan versa note. your door to more. ♪ they have now made it that it's easier to get a gun than it is to register to vote. that is a crime against democracy. >> wow. welcome back the "hardball." north carolina naacp president the reverend william barber has been the driving force there as you see in that state's moral mondays where residents have strike. the state's gop leaders have also put stricter requirements on abortion clinics that may limit a woman's access to the procedure. these are issues we've covered extensively on "hardball." and now a new poll indicates that north carolina's image nationally may be suffering as a result. in 2011, two years ago when the polling company ppp conducted a

national poll rating the popularity of each state, which i found interesting, north carolina made the top 10, with a healthy 40% favorable, 11% unfavorable. that's an impressive 29 points in the favorable fast forward two years and the bottoms dropped out. now the country has a 30% favorable opinion on north carolina, unfavorable, 23%, giving the states 7 points in the favorable direction. that's a 2 2-point drop in two years. women's favorable opinion sunk 29 points. among african-americans the state's popularity dropped an astonishing 45 points. nia malika henderson for the "washington post." david corn is with "mother joness" and msnbc political analyst. sing what's wrong with north carolina by the public's view? nia. >> people typically identify north carolina with the outer banks with the research triangle park and over the last couple years it has been a very much a politicized and political state. we've seen the voting, the voting rights act down there

rolled back by the supreme court and now they are putting in very strict, i think the strictest voter i.d. laws and restrictions down there. then, of course, with abortion, it very much has taken a right turn. i think typically north carolina has been viewed very differently than south carolina. i think that's changing. you see pat mccrory having a republican legislature down there, the legislator is more conservative than he is and he's having battles down there with that republican party that is much more conservative than he is. >> i'm amazed by this. i thought north carolina was on the move here because of the research triangle, unc, nc state and, of course, duke, all that. all the thinks going on down there. all the sort of natural -- nationalization of the state. everybody fwogoes to north caroa to get educated now, go to the beaches. they love the place. you have the retro thing going on. what is the retro thing all about? >> let me put a good word in for okakoke island in north carolina where i like to visit.

north carolina was always part of the south, but in the last few years and last decade or so, because of the growth of the tech and research and education centers throughout the state, a lot of northerners and people from the midwest have moved there and it seemed to be coming less a southern state in terms of being part of that conservative culture that long pivoted in the south. in 2008, it went for obama by half a point. but now we see 2012, obama lost by almost two points to mitt romney. you see the resurgence of the republican right there. and, again, so this whole image of -- >> what are they upset about, do you know? nia, can you, having been down there, what is upsetting the people on the conserve ti side of the aisle that makes them want to go the other direction? >> well, you know, i do think in states across the country, we have in some ways seen an obama backlash and you see in some of these states that are very much controlled by republicans from top to bottom from the governor's manage to the state legislature, so they have their

way in these states and they very much are running the table on lots of issues whether voting rights or more social issues like abortion. you also saw down there, for instance, they put up an act for same-sex marriage. that was defeated. william barber and naacp down there very much on the other side of the issue. >> the gun laws they've passed, too. >> let's talk a positive for a second. you have a state down there that's known for having a university system, especially chapel hill which is up there almost like the stanford of the east. it has great athletics, basketball forever, and also football. not this year necessarily. they have a high academic standard. people from all over the country want to go to the schools there. aren't they proud of it, nia, what they developed? >> definitely. i went to duke. you went to unc. i'm not a fan of unc basketball, but it's certainly a great school. >> dean smet. medal of freedom. >> the folks down there who i know folks who teach at unc, who go to unc. they are very much concerned

about -- >> like they should be. >> -- the turn they see in that state. >> thank you both. >> also jesse helms, right? >> also in there. i got to go, david. >> going back in that direction. >> david, and nia-malika henderson of the "washington post." when we return, let me finish with a tribute to one of the men of the greatest nation. this is "hardball." the place for politics. clay.

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let me end tonight with the story of robert emmett

cunningham. he was part of what tom brokaw said was the greatest generation. he dropped out of his first year of college to join the u.s. navy. he wanted to be a naval aviator, got promised by a recruiter he could pull it off once he enlisted. instead they sent him to electronics school and sent him to new caledonia in the south pacific and issued a suitcase-sized piece of gear that allowed him to communicate with ships at sea to direct gunfire on enemy held islands. to there he was sent in the philippines, one of the really bad spots in the war. he was lucky. "the thing was changing all the time" h he told me after dinner a few months back. "we made a regular landing the in boats and walked in the water, carried rifles and went up to the beach in awe. there was in resistance. the japanese moved from there to further south. it wasn't that safe. there were minor japanese fragments shooting at us." were you ever scared i asked him? "no, my father-in-law said without a beat, i had a hell of

a time." he and his buddies were getting word the americans were about to invade the home islands of japan, itself, an operation expected to cost a million casualties. "they started distributing the heavy clothing" he said, "that's when we knew we were heading to japan. we made practice landings and issued winter clothing in 90 degree heat. we didn't have to wear it. were issued it. they got the news japan, had, as he put it, thrown in the towel. turns out bob cunningham, kathleen's father were one of those saved by president truman's decision to use the atom bomb. what would an invasion have been like? i asked him that knowing how ferociously the japanese defended the many islands in the pacific. he let me know exactly what had been on his mind all these years since. he said it would have been horrible. i think that would have been horrible, he said again. that was almost 70 years ago, obvious. and yesterday, not far from where he and mary lou raised five kids in northern california including my incredible wife, bob cunningham died. we and our children were out there visiting him last weekend.

he was in good spirits. our kids were wonderful with him and he with them. cracking jokes right to the end. robert emmett cunningham of los altos, california, via new caledonia and lady gulf on his way to arlington. thank you for your service. i've seen the promise land. i may not get there with you, but i want you to know tonight that we as a people will get to the promise land. >> the words that still propel us forward toward that dream of fairness and equality, and today the signs of progress are everywhere. >> i promise you, we as a people will get there. change has come to america. >> but challenges remain. tonight, we'll talk about advancing the dream for the next