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you care about world affairs. i mean, it's saturday morning and you are watching a political cable show. so by my own, ever so humble equation, you are way above average. but how much do you know about the country that the united states may bomb very soon? could you confidently point out syria on a blank map? president obama is going to address the nation about his plan for syria on tuesday, and he has already, by asking congress to weigh in, put the debate, to some extent, in our citizen hands. it becomes our responsibility to know as much as we can about what we may be getting ourselves into. as the ancient chinese military general and philosopher wrote, you must know yourself and know your enemy in order to win your battles. and after what feels like nonstop syria talk for nearly two weeks, i'm still left wondering, how much do we know about the country itself? syria's bordered by jordan, lebanon, turkey, iraq, and israel. it was part of the ottoman

empire until after world war i, when france and britain carved up the middle east between them. france took syria, and syria didn't gain independence until 1946. the next few decades were marked by coups and uprisings, until president bashar al assad's father seized power in 1970. syria is made up of a wide variety of ethnic groups, including ethnic kurds, arab christians, and even jews. 59% of the population are sunni muslim arabs. then there are the alawites that follow a sect of shiaism. the alawites make up less than 12% of the population, but they are the ruling class. this matters. president bashar al assad and his family are from that ethnic group. bashar's father managed to keep power by violently crushing any toepgs. he bombed the city of hama for

weeks, killing as many as 20,000 people, mostly civilians, and his son is following suit. today the country has been devastated by violence that began when bashar al assad's government responded to peaceful arab spring protest in march of 2011 with a brutal crackdown. more than 100,000 people have been killed. and more than 6 million people out of a population of 20 million have fled or been displaced within the country. the economy has shrunk by a third. most of the country's state-run hospitals have closed and fighting has caused $15 billion in damage to public buildings and infrastructure. assad insists that he is fighting terrorists, supported by foreign powers. the opposition insists that they are fighting for a better country. now, what's important here also to remember is that the rebels are not a single entity, but a hodgepodge of groups, like the free syrian army and the syrian liberation front, which have not been able to organize into a coalition cable of ruling or even at this point negotiating a political settlement.

some are relatively moderate. some are extremists who openly declare their ties the to al qaeda. and syria's neighbors are also involved in the civil war. splitting broadly along religious lines. the majority sunni countries of turkey, saudi arabia, and qatar have funded the rebel groups, while shia, iran, and hezbollah and lebanon support the assad regime. the word may be an incredible understatement, but syria is, at very least, complicated. and so is the question of our response. the obama administration says that more than 1,400 people were killed in a chemical attack allegedly launched by the syrian government in late august, although estimates from some human rights groups are much lower. in response, president obama wants to bomb some of the government's military assets, even though he admits that military action will likely only make a dent, at best, a dent in the ongoing and brutal syrian civil war. >> we may not solve the whole problem, but this particular

problem of using chemical weapons on children, this one we might have an impact on, and that's worth acting on. that's important to us. >> whatever else this military action might be, there's one thing it definitely isn't, according to the president's top diplomat. secretary of state john kerry told my colleague, chris hayes, that this is not war. >> i know the lessons of war. i don't believe this is taking america to war. i believe this is enforcing a very limited military action, not going to war, that will, in fact, stand up for the notion that you should not use chemical weapons. >> bashar al assad may be more of an enemy to the world and humanity than he is specifically to the united states. but it is quite clear that it is quite clear that it is quite clear that his nation may, in fact, soon be the target of the united states. and to return to the wisdom of sun zhu, before we launch our

missiles into syria, we best know our target. joining me now is frank janewsy. amanny jamal, associate professor of politics at princeton university. dominick tierney, author of "how we fight," and mohammad ganam with the syrian american council. thank you all for being here. you have spent the week on capitol hill, meeting with representatives. what have you done in terms of simply educating them? because i assume they like many of us don't know. what were the key items you needed them to know in order to make this decision? >> the stakes. this is a high-stakes situation, as high as it can get. and we're explaining what this matters -- what this means in terms of u.s. national security interests. what the lack of the cause of action would be, and how limited

it is. the president's proposal, et cetera, so we focus education this week on these issues. >> i have been, i think, surprised at how much, since the president has announced that he was going to go for congressional authority, how much the conversation in american media has shifted almost exclusively to the politics, the internal politics, and away from the question of what is actually happening in syria. jam jamal, what do we know about syria and about the region that will help us make better decisions. >> about syria, there's a issue here that syria has outlawed use of weapons against their own citizens. whether or not the syrian regime should be held accountable is the key question. and does the united states have a moral obligation to secure that moral obligation? that's the key question. when you take that question to the american public, the american public is going to ask, why is it the u.s.'s responsibility to uphold a moral obligation in the world.

>> that piece, which we'll talk about more even tomorrow on the show, but that piece of public opinion here, and the sense the that part of it is a war-weary public, the members of congress who you talked to this week are trying to figure out not only what the moral obligation is, what the realities on the ground are, but what their constituents are thinking about, how much has that typically weighed into sort of how we, how we pursue military actions in this country? >> public opinion is a key part of the equation, for any president who goes to war. and the current intervention in syria is looking like it's going to be one of the least popular interventions in the post-cold war era, and that's partily because of the legacy of iraq and afghanistan, and it's partly because, frankly, the american people look at the president and they haven't been presented with a clear strategy, that they can understand, that seems like there's a clear path to a successful outcome. >> let me play a little bit of sound here from secretary of state john kerry, because part

of -- oh, okay, i actually will not play that right at this moment. but part of what i want to ask about here is the various groups -- so the idea that there are multiple rebellious groups, there's not one rebellion, there's not one organized, how does that impact, then, what our strategy is? >> it impacts the level of organization that the opposition can have. because unlike benghazi, unlike libya, the opposition in syria doesn't have benghazi. assad maintains access throughout the country, thanks to the air force. so the lack of a region on the ground, an area on the ground where the opposition can meet, talk, et cetera, definitely poses challenges. >> and this is the other thing that poses that very thing, is what poses a challenge around the human rights violations going on. >> that adversity poses a challenge for seeking justice and responding to the magnitude of this human rights disaster. amnesty international has documented abuses of all the

parties. if there's going to be no impunity for war crimes and there's going to be a pursuit of justice, there needs to be a mechanism that can bring all people to be held accountable for their actions. >> speaking of that -- just a technicals to get the sound, but i want to hear john kerry talking to my colleague, chris hayes, about that "new york times" story about one of the of the groups and sort of those incredible images we saw, and then this is secretary of state kerry responding. let's listen. >> we all know there are about 11 really bad opposition groups, so-called opposition, they're not -- they're fighting assad. they are not part of the opposition that is being supported by our friends and ourselves. >> how confident can we be, though, that that support can be cordoned off or quarantined in any way? >> well, it is being. there's a very careful vetting process that's taking place, where people have to come out of syria. we're not remotely talking about getting america involved,

directly, in between any of those forces. >> okay. there's a lot going on there. the very first piece is this idea that there are 11 opposition groups, but don't worry, we know the good guys from the bad guys. how likely is that to be true? >> i think that's absolutely true. and here's why. so i think it's well-known that the mainstream opposition in syria is there, but because there was a void created on the ground, with the state contracting or reattracting, so there was a void, lack of political will to help the syrian -- the mainstream opposition fill this void, definitely nefarious organizations and nefarious individuals started trickling into this country, into syria. and they've been a very good job of distributing social services. there's a desperate situation on the ground. people have no choice but to turn to some of these. but again, you look at the numbers. i think the key questions are, what are the numbers? you have, i think estimates, you have about 6,000 extremists in comparison with about 150 to

200,000 mainstream opposition. that's relatively moderate. but the problem is that mainstream opposition is resource hungry, they've not been supported, and then off small minority extremists that is -- that have excellent resources. unless you tip this balance, i think the situation will continue to grow worse. >> so the argument i'm hearing you make right now is an argument that sounds actually less -- something like what i hear the administration saying. but even more importantly, it sounds like the mccain argument, in the sense that not only should this be a limited set of strikes around saying, we will not use chemical weapons as a world global practice, but also that there is a potential to tip the balance towards moderate opposition forces? >> there is that potential, but i'm going to respectfully disagree. it's not clear that the moderate opposition has the upper hand in the conflict right now. and this is an important issue. let's just assume we go in. we weaken the assad regime. this is a regime, first of all, that doesn't really have an exit strategy, so if it's in the face of being weakening, there are no guarantees that it's not going to unleash chemical weapons again on its own population, a. and b, if it is drastically

weakened, it might actually bomb the opposition. >> we're going to take a break, but i want to cop back on this point. something i haven't heard frequently talked about. the idea that the assad regime also needs an exit strategy. there has to be a way for it to exit without sort of responding in the way that it has, even to the most moderate of protests. so stay with us. more on our kind of syria 101 when we come back. . i got this. [thinking] is it that time? the son picks up the check? [thinking] i'm still working. he's retired. i hope he's saving. i hope he saved enough. who matters most to you says the most about you. at massmutual we're owned by our policyowners, and they matter most to us. whether you're just starting your 401(k) or you are ready for retirement, we'll help you get there.

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there are going to be times, where, as is true here, the international community is stuck. for a whole variety of political reasons. and if that's the case, people are going to look to the united states and say, what are you going to do about it? >> not a bad question, president

obama. what are we going to do about it? so let's go back to this exit tragedy. >> i would just lake to say quickly, we are where we are today, with the regime that's using chemical weapons as another tool in its arsenal, simply because the credible threat of the use of force has been lacking. so it was a peaceful protest, a movement for six months, assad militaryized the process, escalated from live rounds, use of tanks and heavy artillery, helicopter gun ships, fixed wing aircraft, scud missiles, and now because of no consequences, assad believed that the world doesn't have any business in this area, and it has escalated. so now i think if no action is taken, this would be tantamount to a blank check to assad and other dictators around the world that the world would continue to stand by and watch. >> this is the question. here we are. we find ourselves in this moment, as the president says, if we strike, particularly in the very limited way that secretary of state kerry is saying, then what happens? and do we find ourselves with an assad who survives a strike, and is like, i stood up to the u.s. and continues to use weapons,

because he's in power, and if we don't strike, is he like, see, i pushed them down, they can't even come over here and continue to use weapons. is there any story we think happens where assad does not continue to attack his people? >> this is a great question. and at the start of the segment, you talked about sun zhu, the art of war. and what you need is a strategy. a strategy requires clear goals, a plan to achieve those goals, and ideally an element of surprise. >> we certainly don't have an element of surprise. >> we have no clear goals. are we going after this chemical weapon issue? is it a regime change mission? how are regime strikes going to be a game changer in syria? and where is the element of surprise? this is the most telegraphed war in history. >> but is that the credible -- so in other words, is there a possibility there's a credible threat? >> there is way to get the international community unstuck. i mean, i think the president put his finger on it. the obstructionism by russia and china and the u.n. security council is integral to the problem here. they are standing in the way of justice, they're standing in the

way of an effective sanctions regime or other international response that might both address the needs of the displaced and the refugees, as well as bring to bear significant pressure on all the parties by curtailing their access to arms. so getting the u.n. security council unstuck should be the focus of u.s. diplomatic efforts. and the ways to do that, in terms of isolating russia and china, putting the heat on them to show the world the consequences of their preventing the u.n. from responding. >> jump in there. >> so i want to respond to this. i think this is the way to go. we are basically saying, we have two choices. do we strike or not? and i don't think we should frame the debate that way. i think it is, can we use this as an opportunity to say, look, to the assad regime. you have clearly passed a red line. you're clearly in violation of all these international norms and standards. you either come to the table with the backing of united nations and be prepared to make serious concessions to the opposition, if indeed the opposition is organized enough to negotiate, and let's use this as an opportunity for diplomacy. this is a failure in diplomacy,

if we have no other option before us, except to go at it alone and strike syria. >> how can we press russia? it does feel to me like the huge element in the room here is russia. >> one way to press them is by getting them to put pressure on syria to sign the chemical weapons convention. if we're talking about reinforcing international norms, preventing the use of chemical weapons, syria is one of five countries in the world that has not signed the chemical weapons convention, banning these weapons. put pressure on russia, which has signed the convention. tell your client state. get with the program. you need to abandon these chemical weapons. otherwise, you're going to face serious international consequences. >> i would completely agree with this, but unfortunately this is a strategy we've been pursuing for 2 1/2 years, and look where. assad said, the only solution to dealing with the opposition, quote, so to annihilate them. the assad regime -- i lived for 29 areas in syria. the assad regime is not interested in negotiation. neither the father or the son,

not a regime that negotiated. they've always used brute force to crush opposition. so you have a regime that's embattled, the united nationsed and avoided syria, when he met with assad last year said that assad is interested in taking syria back to the good old days when the assad regime ruled with impunity. so unless they understand there are consequences to the massive and rep rensable use of chemical weapons against innocents, they will continue to escalate just like they've done for -- let me give you the inside scoop. i completely agree with all of my colleagues here, that if you approached the this from the point of view, definitely the assad regime would say, i faced down -- you know, i defied the american -- and faced that down. congress, i think now is, especially in the senate, some in the congress, are pushing the president to place these strikes within a broader strategy to ensure there would be some difference on the ground. >> when we come back, i want to talk about the millions of people who are caught in the cross fire.

are we even talking about the syrian people as we talk about this potential battlefield that is their home. no two people have the same financial goals. pnc investments works with you to understand yours and helps plan for your retirement. talk to a pnc investments financial advisor today. ♪ i asked my husband to pay our bill, and he forgot. you have the it card and it's your first time missing a payment, so there's no late fee. really? yep! so is your husband off the hook? no. he went out for milk last week and came back with a puppy. hold it. hold it. hold it. at discover, we treat you like you'd treat you. get the it card with late payment forgiveness.

we're back. and i just want to follow up on this issue that you've raised here. and this notion of, sort of, intervening in a way that could ultimately make a difference in the civil war. that is precisely what the secretary of state said we are not doing, and yet, i hear that appeal and i guess the main question that comes to mind for me is, what do the people of syria want? do the people of syria want an intervention that is strikes? do they want no u.s. intervention? or do they want, in fact, boots on the ground that will tip the balance of power? >> the overwhelming majority of syrians are not asking for boots on the ground. they're saying we are the boots on the ground. we have boots on the ground, but these boots on the ground need resources and need to be empowered to do the job. we need strikes against artillery, airfields, et cetera, missile batteries assad is using to subdue the population, and carefree elements with resources. and we can do the job. that's what they're asking for.

however, i think it's important to say that on three different occasions, syrians have held nationwide protests, asking, calling on the international community to assume its responsibility, under the responsibility to protect and come and protect civilians in syrian. >> so that is true, but then, what will that look like? i mean, let's just step back. should the united states strike syria, because syria crossed a red line? and what we're hearing is that there's going to be a limited strike, that's not going to have much of an effect. what we're hearing here is that, no, the u.s. strikes should weaken the regime and empower the opposition. if, indeed, the strategy is regime change, and this goes back to the idea that we don't have a strategy. if the strategy is regime change, for that to be effective, there has to be a commitment to boots on the ground. u.s. boots on the ground. >> the bill that has passed -- >> and that is the thing that we know we can't get public support for. so, i guess, my question is, is this about the fact that there actually is a strategy, and the strategy is regime change, and it does include ultimately boots on the ground, but they're not saying that at this moment, because that will never get

enough votes, or is it seriously that the strategy is simply a limited response to both empower opposition and to sort of send this international message? >> what we're doing at the moment, i think, or what we're looking at doing is the worst of all worlds, right? >> just enough to be nothing? >> just enough to get the united states embroiled in the syrian civil war, but not enough to change the fundamental dynamics of a deeply entrenched sectarian civil war. >> and this is -- my colleague over at cnn suggests that this is a kind of sectarian rebalancing, that we simply had to expect to occur as a result of the whole sort of mideast uprisings and that ultimately we know -- and this is why i've been wanting to say, i don't know if we know enough to be engaged here. >> the absence of a commitment to significantly shift the balance, we should not think there's, therefore, nothing to be done. if folks go to amnestyusa.o

amnestyusa.org/syria, you can see a list of seven or eight actions that could make the situation a bit better. there can be an intensive humanitarian response, there can be an attempt to impose an arms embargo to dry up the source of the conflict and force people back to the diplomatic table. there can be an appeal to the international criminal court to appeal and hold those accountable. there can be an effort made by the international community to say, look, why should we not hold accountable the states that are aiding and abetting the violence here. why is the u.s. military still doing business with russian arms companies, wlor, themselves, selling weapons to the syrian regime? >> it is our relationship with russia that feels to me like the thing that is being spoken about the least here. and we saw it -- not here, at this particular table, but we saw it sort of percolate as a conversation because of the meeting in st. petersburg this week, but that fundamental question of where these arms are coming from and who's giving cover and why the u.n. can't move is really a story about russia. >> but in terms of the strategy, i think we have to say, we have to be fair to the

administration. the administration has made it very clear that there's only a political solution to the crisis. but, however, conditions on the ground are not conducive to a political settlement. assad is convinced he's winning on the ground with the help of hezbollah and iran and et cetera. they won't come to the negotiating table. so hopefully the strikes will be robust enough, so that assad is convinced he cannot infant gas his way out of conflict and come and sit at the negotiating table. >> this is a very good point. i do this administration would say, hey, what you're talking about here is what we have tried to pursue, but we've also said chemical weapons are not allowable, so we have to act. stay rate here, i want to talk about the millions of displaced and refugees. . and another. and if you do it. and your friends do it. and their friends do it... soon we'll be walking our way to awareness, support and an end to alzheimer's disease. and that? that would be big. grab your friends and family and start a team today.

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missing for much of the public conversation about syria are the more than 6 million people who have been forced from their homes the by the current conflict. they are refugees in neighboring countries or displaced within syria. and more than half of the refugees are fleeing the country

are children. for many, the situation is dire. aid agencies cannot reach many of the internally displaced persons, and some of syria's neighbors are strained to the breaking point, as more and more refugees pour in. the exodus has increased jordan's population by 10%. the refugee camp in jordan is now that country's fourth largest city, with 120,000 people in what was, very recently, a desolate stretch of desert. the united nations is coordinating the response and is trying to raise $3 wl to fund it. but as of two weeks ago, they had only reached 40% of their goal. talk to me about this part. >> i worked in a refugee camp on the thai/cambodian border ten years ago. and there is no greater group of people than the folks who are there in that refugee camp now. the international community needs to do a much better job. they need to fully fund the more than $4 billion that's needed to address need of this refugee crisis. it's as if 100 million americans had been driven from their

homes. that's the proportion of the syrian population that is on the move and at risk. 75% of them are women and children. they're victims of sexual trafficking, victims of sexual assault and abuse. they're in a very vulnerable state. and we need a much more robust response. >> i want to listen for a moment to what prime minister cameron said, because, of course, we know that part of what's happened in terms of u.s. politics happened in part because of what happened in the british parliament. as much as uk has said, we're not going no terms of military, here is what the prime minister said about humanitarian work. >> because we were never going to reach agreement, i thought it was right to focus on something we could do, building the strongest possible international commitment on humanitarian aid. inside syria, 6.8 million are in need of humanitarian assistance. 60% of hospitals, 4,000 schools have been damaged or destroyed. this is the humanitarian crisis the world and our generation

faces. and i'm determined that the world takes the action to deal with it. >> right. so as america, talking about our war weariness. i'm thinking, 6.8 million people. >> it's massive. almost a third of the population. clearly, the international community has not done enough for the refugees. they've pledged, but they haven't funded. and the humanitarian crisis in syria is just despicable. it's just massive and more needs to be done. so when we think about an air strike on syria, it needs to be coupled with a clear-cut, effective humanitarian strategy. and we really haven't heard much on that. >> and the other piece for me is that map that maybe we showed earlier. and that idea of sort of, so where are they going, and what happens when they get there? so we know that this dispersion, this exodus of people is now having an impact all throughout the region. >> you're talking about 2 million syrians who fled to neighboring countries. that's like all of the people in new mexico. it's an incredible number.

and it's both a moral question and a strategic question. it's a moral question, because this is the lives of ordinary people. a strategic question, because it's destabilizing neighboring countries. but we have to follow what the doctors swear, the hippocratic oath, which is do no harm. so will air strikes really help the refugees? >> will they? >> i think if you go to a refugee camp now, melissa, and randomly meet people and ask them, will you supportive of a strikes? the overwhelming response you'll get is, yes. that's refugees. you need to keep in mind, the united nations revised the nu numbers a couple days. about 5 million of whom are permanently displaced. these people are being bombed oon a daily basis with tnt barrels lobbed on the population. if you can do something about the missile batteries, the scud missiles that are being lobbed on them or the heavy artillery or the air force, i think that

would be a significant step towards reducing the number of civilian casualties in the country. >> so refugees are never a random draw from the box of the population. if tomorrow i could wave my magic wand and fix the current crisis in syria, but would leave all of the collateral damage that has occurred, how bad is it? thinking a decade, two decades forward? >> the reconstruction job is going to be enormous. amnesty international has used satellite imagery to document the destruction of civilian neighborhoods in the country's largest city of aleppo. and when you look at the before and after shots on our website, it's devastating. whole neighborhoods have been leveled, flattened by ballistic missiles and heavy artillery. so even if this conflict were to end tomorrow, those 7 million people are not going to get to mauve home immediately. there's going to be a long-term sustained effort necessary. >> but we've got to start somewhere. >> so we've talked a little bit about syrian people living in syria. we talked a little bit about syrian refugees who are on the

run and internally displaced. does the syrian american community have a position on intervention, either in an humanitarian role or in a military role? and do they have any capacity as syrian american community to actually influence the outcome of these decisions? >> i'm a board member on the coaddition for democratic syria and a member of eight organizations that work in washington, d.c., but have nationwide presence. i think they think of it as a humanitarian strike, similar to what happened to kosovo, bosnia, or even libya. and i think they overwhelmingly support and endorse the president's request for punishing assad's juice for using chemical weapons. they have played a role with peaceful protests and marches in 2011, which raised funds nor humanitarian relief. sent about $115 million to help humanitarian relief programs. they've also played a role in awareness raising, and i think they're also advocating the administration. now, this -- i would not say

every -- i don't like to make generalizations. i would not say every single syrian american in the united states is on board with this. but because i'm deeply involved in the syrian american community, i would say the overwhelming majority is on board. >> before we go, many of my viewers are staunchly against military intervention. what can they pressure politically their representatives to do. if they are staunchly against military intervention, what can they do? >> they can sign up for an action pushing boehner, reid, the president to refer this conflict to the international criminal court, to enhance our aid for the refugees, the american people are the most generous in the world. we're already doing a lot to help the people of syria, but we could do more. but also to bring pressure to bear to dry up the someplace of arms to this conflict. there are options on the table that have not been fully exploited. >> this is complicated, again, does feel like a deep understatement. and yet, here we are. we've got to keep to walk

through the complications. thank you all for being here. amaney is going to stick around. up next, a really different topic. it is my letter of the week and it's to a 7-year-old girl in oklahoma. these days, a small bus can save by sharing. like carpools... polly wants to know if we can pick her up. yeah, we can make room. yeah. [ male announcer ] ...office space. yes, we're loving this communal seating. it's great. [ male announcer ] the best thing to share? a data plan. at&t mobile share for business. one bucket of data for everyone on the plan, unlimited talk and text on smart phones. now, everyone's in the spirit of sharing. hey, can i borrow your boat this weekend? no. [ male announcer ] share more. save more. at&t mobile share for business. ♪

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[ male announcer ] completely redesigned for whatever you love to do. the all-new nissan versa note. your door to more. ♪ black hair made news again this week. during a segment on cbs' "the talk," co-host cheryl underwood expressed dismay that heidi klum would save the cut hair of her biracial children saying, okay, i'm sorry, but why would you save afro hair. you can't weave afro hair. you never say, look here, what i need is those curly, nappy beads. that just seems nasty. now, underwood swiftly apologized, claiming that she was making a joke, but also acknowledging that the misplaced humor touched on a deep place of pain for many african-americans. the social rejection of our hair. while underwood was taking the brunt of public outrage for her hair joke, we learned this week

that a school in tulsa, oklahoma, has made hair shaming official policy. debora brown community school in tulsa, oklahoma, sent a student home for what authorities there deemed an unacceptable hairstyle. the hairstyle, short dreadlocks, pinned back with a bow. the student, a 7-year-old girl, who by all accounts, is a very good student. so now my letter this week isn't to debora brown community school, even though we reached out to them and were referred to their lawyer, who still hasn't called back. instead, my letter this week is to the most important person in the whole story. 7-year-o 7-year-o 7-year-old tiana parker and all the other tianas in our little community. dear tiana, it's me, melissa. tiana, when i saw and heard you cry about not being able to wear your hair the way you wanted, it broke my heart. first of all, tiana, no matter what your school or anyone else has said to you, we are proud of your hair and you should be too.

in spite of your school's policy that states hairstyles such as dreadlocks, afros, and other faddish styles are unacceptable, for the record, tiana, your hair is not distracting, unacceptable, a fad, or wrong. tiana, your hair is wonderful. you come from a people with a beautiful array of styles and textures that range from short to big afros, that come in colors from grey to black, curly naturals that spiral every which way just because they can. and you, dear tiana, are part of a people who have the choice of sporting dreadlocks, which have a rich history in black culture. lots have been rocked by bob marley and later generations of musicians like rocky lenny kravitz who wore dreadlocks in her early days. lauren hill's locks were matched by the beauty of her deep, brown skin, and that same beautiful brown skin that you possess, tiana. because, remember, on top of all

of this, your black is beautiful. and let's not forget the queen b herself, oscar winning actress whoopi goldberg hasn't let anyone tell her how to dress or look and has probably worn her dreads for decades. look to young artist willow smith. whether she is whipping her hair back and forth or rocking the shortest buzz cut, no one tells her how to limit her beauty or her choices. the same way that your beauty and choices are limitless, dear tiana. so your old school might want to revamp its policy, because instead of enforcing a uniform policy for students, it reinforces stereotypes and undermines a sense of students' self-worth. and also, kudos to your mama and your daddy, the barber who takes great pride in your hair, for pulling you out of that school who did not celebrate their child. so here is the hm pr mhp show m

to you, tiana, you are perfect just the way you are. and don't be confused. when you're at school, it's what's in your head that is way more important than what is on your head. sincerely, melissa.

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if you look into walmart, this past week's protests and demonstrations weren't really that big of a deal. according to the company's statement, "once again, it looks like the ufcw, the united food and workers union, threw a party and nobody showed up. despite promises of thousands of workers protesting this week, the union failed to deliver more than a smattering of paid protesters at their 15 orchestrated events." oh, really, walmart? tell that to the crowd of people who turned out on the streets of

new york city to protest the low wages at the world's largest retailer. and the folks in los angeles seemed pretty organized as well. across the country, at least 100 people were arrested in 11 cities, according to organizers. if walmart considers that to be a smattering, it remains to be seen what it will take for them to change their policies and take their workers' demands seriously. at the table, michael saltzman, research director at the employment policies institute. fred ascart, the executive director of u.s. action, david cay johnston, and kolcalolby ha a walmart employee who was arrested in thursday's protests. walmart says, this isn't a real thing. not a big deal. you were arrested. what's your response? >> it is a real thing. and also to the response that this is uocw coordinating this, that's not true. our organization consists solely of former and current workers

and we coordinated everything. and the fact that walmart would come out and make a statement like that, it really goes to show how they could really care less about what their workers have to say and they don't respect the fact that we're speaking out. >> so it is a relatively small number of employees compared to the, you know, one point some million employees that walmart claims to have. so why should we take it seriously? if it's a small number, even if they're deeply committed, deeply organized, even if they're willing to go to jail, why should walmart take it seriously? >> walmart will take it seriously when customers who recognize that they're the very people being dissed by these outrageous comments by the company, showing the disrespect they have for the people with low wages, who shop in their stores, stop shopping there. or minimize their shopping there. but, we should care a lot, because as walmart being such a big employer, largest private employer in the country, 1.3 million people. if it can drive down wages, if

it can eliminate unions at other firms that sell groceries, other people's wages are going to fall and it's a terrible story that will lead to higher taxes, higher government burdens, but it will make the walmart family richer. >> you just said two things that feel to me deeply connected, which is, one, that people with low wages buy things, including groceries at walmart, and so the need for walmart to keep prices low, for people, and people with low wages and reduced incomes, who need things like, oh, i don't know, food, is what they typically will respond is the important part of why wages are low. it's low-wage work because we've got to keep prices low. yes, no? >> no. >> no, that's not? >> no. what walmart's trying to do is drive down the general level of prices paid to workers in this field. stores that have unionized clerks make a profit. stores in canada and europe pay higher wages and make a profit.

and a lot of that money that walmart is putting out the door comes right now because of all the joblessness from food stamps, which means the taxpayers. >> but i would feel like, okay, i've got constrained choices here. if i'm a consumer and i'm watching this. and i'm like, i'm down with you, melissa harris-perry, i'm down with you, perry, but i'm a constrained consumer. we've got one superwalmart. i've got to buy my groceries there. i want to support folks, but this is the reality. as a potential worker, i would feel like, have you seen the job numbers? they're really bad. and given how bad these job numbers, i need a job, and if a minimum wage job is what i can take, i'm going to take it and i'm not going to cause problems. >> the problem isn't prices, it's wages. what colby is doing and what his coworkers are doing is in the greatest american tradition of standing up against injustice. they're fighting for themselves and their families. they're also fighting for all of us. they're trying to take a stand against saying, you know, we're not going to go down this path

of lowering wages, as low as we can, and abusing workers. because we put more money in workers' pockets. what do they do? they spend it. and increase economic activity. >> let's take a step back for a second pop we're talking about unionized grocery stores for instance. unionized grocery stores make -- chains like safeway and unite, that they have come in and unionized also have people who are in the minimum wage. the ufcw, because it represents though, is their direct competitor here to walmart. when we're talking about wages and talking about what's going on here, this ultimately is an orchestrated event. we've seen these photos of the protests in washington, d.c. it was reported last night that only two of the people at that protest, where there were maybe over 100 people, were former walmart employees and zero of the people there were current walmart employees. is it possible to find a couple one thousandths of one percent of the store's workforce that are dissatisfied, absolutely. but if you look online at who's saying bad things about the company, it's good jobs first.

>> colby, colby, is it labor astroturf? the argument is it's labor astroturf. >> the thing about it is is the fact that there's a fear factor. and when you join the organization, the retaliation is real. on june 1st through the 7th, workers decided to go on a labor practice strike for the company against retaliation us, for going on strike, doing protests and things of that nature. and they fired 20 workers illegally for being on a protected strike. >> they want it both ways. on the one hand, you want to say that our walmart is not a union, and on the other hand, you want the same protections that are afforded to unions under labor law, which is why you have to say you're protesting an unfair labor practice. from walmart's perspective, this is just people who are walking off the job. and i've worked in the service industry and the retail industry for a number of years, and if there's one unpardonable sin in this industry, it's the no-call, no-show. if you're not showing up to work, walmart is not having an unfair labor practice. they're making the decision that any business, large or small would make. >> pause! we're going to take a break.

as you can see, this is about to get hot, so stay with us. coming up next, what walmart could look like under a new model of management. plus, president bill clinton, yes, we still call him president bill clinton, yes, they're at odds over stuff. and also, there is more nerdland at the top of the hour. with the spark miles card from capital one, bjorn earns unlimited rewards for his small business. take these bags to room 12 please. [ garth ] bjorn's small business earns double miles on every purchase every day. produce delivery. [ bjorn ] just put it on my spark card. [ garth ] why settle for less? ahh, oh! [ garth ] great businesses deserve unlimited rewards. here's your wake up call. [ male announcer ] get the spark business card from capital one and earn unlimited rewards. choose double miles or 2% cash back on every purchase every day. what's in your wallet? [ crows ] now where's the snooze button?

[ crashing ] [ male announcer ] when your favorite food starts a fight, fight back fast with tums. heartburn relief that neutralizes acid on contact and goes to work in seconds. ♪ tum, tum tum tum tums! welcome back. i'm melissa harris-perry. while there may be a dispute between walmart and those who protested this past week over how many people participated in the demonstrations, the protests were real. and so are the issues that inspired them. now, clearly something isn't working in the model that's been set up. so in this day and age where our economy is still recovering from the great recession, is there an alternative model to pay workers fair wages and for companies to still make a profit?

costco -- costco! -- which is the number two retailer in the u.s. behind walmart finds its ways to pay its hourly workers a wage of 8.88. fast food chain, in-n-out burger starts its employees out with a wage of $9.50 an hour and they can work their way up to $120,000 a year with no degree or previous management experience. walmart may want to take note, because these two alternate business models, which focus on the employees' well-being sound pretty good to me, plus, i just like costco. back at the table, michael saltzman, research director at the employee policies institute. fred, david cay johnston, and colby harris, a walmart employee, who was arrested in thursday's protests. so, i get that walmart obviously operates on a very different model than costco. again, i love costco, but i can

also afford to pay the membership fee to go shopping at costco. and in-n-out is apparently privately held. david, is there a model for a walmart to say, okay, we can do this differently. >> sure. and costco is the proof of that. first of all, if you pay higher wages, you'll be able to hire better quality workers and you can get more productivity out of them. but there's no question that the issue here is not, can you make a profit at this model? the question is, is walmart going to drive down everyone else's wages? that's really what this fight is about. pushing down everybody's wages. >> so i want to ask you about something, the interaction that was happening here before the break. in part because, i heard you say, look, if you don't show up for work and you're claiming it's, you know, for protests, but i just -- i'm a manager, i've got to cover my hours, but i guess what surprised me about walmart's response is that there something going on here. some level of unhappiness, distress, from consumers, from employees. why not say, all right, there

are some things we're willing to do and not others. maybe there is something with our model that doesn't work perfectly in this new system. we have data and evidence showing how many of our employees are on public assistance and we, as entrepreneurs, don't want our employees taking from the government trough. why not sit down and start talking about some kind of changes in how they do their business? >> well, i think walmart has them. that walmart came out, for instance, in support of the last increase in the federal minimum wage prior to the affordable care act, which walmart had to make some changes in response to that. walmart offered health insurance plans to their employees, both full-time and part-time for a while as well. walmart has done these things. but at the end of the day, walmart's business model, with low prices at the customers, and customers only willing to pay so much, you can look at walmart's overall profits and you can say, they look like a really profitable company, but they have a lot of employees too. so when you're only earning $6,000 or $7,000 in profit per employee, the limits of what you can do are different. and they're even -- >> you're going to convince me of all kinds of things, but the

idea that they're hurting for money -- i'm -- all kinds of things about entrepreneurship, but not that. >> the ceo of walmart, the ceo of walmart, you could take his salary and his bonuses, you could cut them down to zero. and you could give everybody in the company a raise -- >> this is what your organization, which isn't really a research organization, you work for a public relations firm, let's be clear. >> it's been around for 20 years. we have an advisory board -- >> i encourage readers to go look up the organization. >> from cornell, from harvard university, from the university of chicago -- >> you don't have to be an economist to know what's happening, right? we've seen decades of workers' productivity going up. wages remaining stagnant. remaining flat. and walmart's part of the problem. and what colby and his coworkers have done is expose this, right? it's a choice. it's a choice. are we going to have a costco economy or a walmart economy? >> and walmart's problems depend on subsidies from the

government. who are on government-financed medical care. who are on food stamps. walmart is a huge welfare operation, financed by the taxpayers. and people who are worried about their tax burdens ought to focus on the redistribution of wealth. because they are a perfect example of the issue, i talk about the fine print in my other books, that we have created a system that redistributes upward. it takes from the many to give to the few. and the walmarts -- what you're doing is bringing up these fine detail points. no one has suggested that paying the head of walmart less money is the solution to this. no one -- no one, michael. >> these are not fine detail points. these are economic realities. and i think the cost coast economy you mention is important. at costco, you're right, you do pay to be a customer. the other thing you have at costco. costco brags about how few employees they have and how they've cut overhead to a minimum. when you're walmart and you have a staff of 1.3 million, labor costs look a lot different than it does for costco. if you can just say, if walmart could just be more like this company.

>> if you look at the turnover rate from a costco to walmart, you'll see that a costco worker stays there. walmart is always having a turnover rate of the associates because they're not satisfied. >> economists call that friction. >> they're not getting the consistent hours and they're getting a poverty wage. if you look at costco and walmart, you'll see that costco is taking care of their associates and walmart isn't. you have that high turnover rate and don't have the consistency of good workers who are going to be there and stay with the company. >> this does feel to me like a shift in our understanding about what is going on in america and in the private sector. and a shift that's occurred maybe over the past 50 years. what you just talked about is, okay, if i'm a worker, i would like to be valued. i would like to have some control over my hours. if i'm capable of working 40 hours a week, i want to work all 40 of them. i want to make a wage that doesn't require me to be dependent on government services. there was a point at which we considered businesses that did that inherently valuable to who we were as americans, as well as to the kind of economy that we

were growing. so, you know, i can do a little costco cheer all day, because they give you nice fun food when you go in. but let's put costco to the side for a moment and say, just in general, the notion of that model to a relationship to workers, versus a relationship to workers that says, i want as many hours as i can get from you, but only up to the level of what i would have to pay you benefits, and i want to pay you as little as possible and keep you as close to the edge as possible. it feels like a different notion of investment than the people who are the labor in this country. >> i think that's part of the crisis in collective bargaining in this country. you see a decline in the unionization in this country. that whole compact, where companies and workers could collectively bargain for wages and benefits and working conditions. and do what's best for the company and for the workers. to grow our economy. >> you also felt good about that. look, work something you complain about, because it's work, so you complain. but when you have a relationship with a company that feels like -- and i think that's the part for me that i want to understand from -- like i'm

legitimately curious about, from the walmart side. is they do present a kind of family model, a kind of happy face model. and, you know, i meet someone like colby, who seems serious and hard working, willing to risk his own freedom in the context of being arrested, and who's been with the company four years, right? so i'm thinking, okay, it sounds to me like you're not trying to shove walmart down, you're trying to have an appreciation, a pride in being a walmart employee. >> we don't want this company to not be profitable, because they're not profitable to the point they want to be, they'll start shutting down stores and things of nah nature. so we don't want them to have less money than what they're already making. what we deserve is workers. >> and we want a company that earns its own way and isn't based on a model of mining taxpayers for subsidies. >> and the other thing is, of course, we know that what happens in the public discourse around that, david, is that the people who get shamed, or the entity that gets shamed for being on food stamps is not -- we don't shame walmart for being on food stamps. we shame the person.

>> i don't know how many people know this, but 90% of walmart distribution centers are built with taxpayer money. they are not built with walmart's profits. you and i are taxed to pay for that. >> excuse me, what? local taxes? >> yes! walmart has government use eminent domain to acquire property. it uses these tax increment financing deals, where they keep the sales taxes to build the stores. one of its executives acknowledged in an interview, they try to get these deals in about a third of the stores. they're not doing it in the urban stores who have more sophisticated news coverage and people who are organized, but walmart is all based on a system of getting the taxpayers to put up the capital. this is not market capitalism, okay? >> when we come back, we'll take a closer look at what walmart has to say and then let david punch them. all right, when we come back. [ male announcer ] nobody knows where or when

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just for fun, i want to go back to the statement that walmart sent to us, what they had to say about the protests. the company's statement reads, in part, "the ufcw, the united food and commercial workers union, is quickly becoming the boy who cried wolf. they put out news releases with big promises, but failed to deliver on those promises. was proven again this week that our walmart group doesn't speak for the vast majority of walmart associates." so colby, is that the case? >> that's not the case. what's happening is, we actually have thousands of members who are in the organization, which is not a big number compared to 1.3 million associates. when you look at the fear factor that they put over us, people are scared to lose their low-wage job, because once you lose that, what else do you have? unemployment? it's the fear factor that's held over our heads, and that's maybe

why we don't have the numbers that people might be looking for. >> it is the case, if you compare the people who are involved in this and if you look at -- i mean, in denver, at the protests in denver, just like in d.c., there were zero actual walmart employees there. so if you look at these, i think if you look at the fast food protests that have happened recently too, what you see is unions like the sieu, and the ufcw, who are looking for ways to build their memberships. this is not about the workers. this is about labor unions who want to build their memberships -- >> wait a minute, let's assume your argument. so colby goes to get a job at walmart. what does he know? very little. what does walmart know? it has studies, human relations staff, lawyers. it has got lots of knowledge. this is asymmetrical. unions are market economics. if your organization actually carried a tbt society as a whole, you would favor unions -- >> -- grocery store not paying $15 an hour to employees to start? why aren't they doing it? >> a red herring.

>> no -- >> i'm raising a fundamental issue that unions represent market economics. union represents market economics, because you have informed people on one side. the u.s. supreme court definition of a market is you have to be informed, you have to be without any restraint upon you, and you have to reach an agreed upon price. that's not what's going on when you don't have a union. >> here's what's happening. at walmart and at a lot of other companies around the country, you're supposed to have the freedom to organize, to form a union. >> exactly. >> colby and his coworkers should have that freedom of association. that doesn't happen. routinely, employers break the law, they fire workers for collective activity. >> and there's no penalty. >> there's no penalty. >> so they keep doing it. >> i want to point out, i think that this question of the asymmetry in the relationship, and the issue of whether or not what we're seeing here is a real thing or an astroturf thing are both critically important. and it's a challenge for those of us sitting in a studio in new york, saying, okay, i do cover

this? is this real? am i seeing something that's actually occurring? is it a real protest? should i get into something that's nascent or do i have to wait? i think those are real questions that are raised and raised in part by walmart's statement. on the other hand, i think we can't miss. and this really matters. why would it be problematic to have your workers organized? why would you not want your workers to have the opportunity to have the additional information, to have a strategy to organize. and i don't think it's enough to say, unions are trying to build themselves. well, sure. and walmart's trying to make profits. neither one of those things are evil things. they are both institutions and organizations that want to perpetuate themselves, right? sure, but i guess the question is, if labor unions don't believe that an organization making a profit is, itself, inherently against its own interests, why is this organization that makes a profit believe that labor unions are inherently against its interests? >> well, if you look -- >> quite frankly, i think it's a lot of corporations don't want anybody telling them what to do,

right? and unions aren't trying to -- the difference is, unions are democratic institutions. you know, workers decide -- >> yeah, they vote. >> through a vote, whether to form a union and what they collectively bargain about. and i think the challenge is that, you know, companies just, you know, put profits before everything else. >> and i do want to underline, to say that unions are democratic is not to say that they are perfect. it is to say they come with all the messiness of democracy. >> walmart's not perfect either. >> people will pick despots, sometimes, to leave them. you will tax people in order to be -- a democracy is ruled by the people and ruled by the people is messy stuff. but it is a check on tyranny. yeah, at its core. >> if you want to know why walmart would be skeptical of something like a labor union. look at what's happening. the ufcw is and organizations like good jobs first are slandering walmart, have started websites, have put out reports to make exaggerated claims, are

holding these protests, are trying to disrupt the company's business. >> well, yeah! >> yeah! >> that's how democracy works! you don't like democracy, michael. >> you can understand why walmart would be skeptical. and memberships don't lie. memberships have been declines through republican and democratic -- >> absolutely! >> it's because the idea of being in an employment relationship thads based on, say, merit instead of seniority, and something where you deal directly with the employees instead of bargaining with the union, these are out -- >> in germany, executives have unions. all of our economic competitors have unions. all of them. >> i've got to say, no one can argue with the empirical reality that unions are in steep decline. i would argue that it is because of a free choice set, in which workers decided not to be in unions. we saw after the 2010 midterm election cycle, in wisconsin and in other places, very clear policies set into place by state governments, to make union

organizing significantly more difficult. >> this is a long-term decline, though. >> yes, because the companies have bought -- the companies have bought rules through their campaign contributions, that are anti-worker. you have a right, under treaties signed by the united states government, by our constitution, to have a union. we've created a series of laws that make it virtually impossible to have unions. and why would we see what we're seeing now? what did frederic douglas teach us? power concedes nothing without demand. it is perfectly appropriate for workers to demand. by the way, i have a solution, melissa, to actually make for the action that goes to michael's point. if you work at walmart, spend less money there as a worker. go to another store. if you shop at walmart, cut back on your shopping at walmart. if you see that they are being punished in the market, if they see that customers say, you are being contemptuous of people. you are depending on taxpayer welfare for your profits and driving people into poverty through your policies and trying to drive workers at other places to the same level, if they see

their sales fall, they will change. >> that is code word for a family who's spending a third of its income on food. walmart is a progressive success story. that's a quote from jason ferman -- >> inspiring workers for going on a labor practice strike. a legal protected strike. is that being -- they fired 20 associates for strictly going on strike. >> and i'm -- >> how was that them being progressive? >> you guys are all coming back, because this is valuable. and colby, thank you so much for being here today. i know -- i mean, you're in a tough circumstance and i appreciate you being here. and david cay johnston's on fire today. but speaking is -- so by the way, michael and fred and colby, thank you so much. but let's hold on for just one moment, because we've been talking about democracy, but i want to show you some young people who are working on democracy right now. i want to acknowledge some of the special guests who are here in the studio. those are students visiting from howard university. they are actually working on their own democracy right there on campus at howard university.

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[ female announcer ] call an allstate agent and get a quote now. today's date, september 7th, 2013. that means we have only 24 days left until millions of americans who don't currently have health insurance will be able to secure coverage through marketplaces called exchanges. this development is brought to you by the affordable care act, or obama care! yay. 16 states and the district of columbia will set up state-run exchanges, which is what the law calls for. but the other 34 states took the option of either setting up a joint state federal exchange or stepping aside and defaulting to a federal exchange swientirely. of those 34 states, 27 of them have republican governors. in fact, in only one state, idaho, did a republican governor with a gop-controlled legislature actually say, yeah, we'll run a state exchange.

it's pretty clear what most republican leaders think about obama care. but bad news for republicans, because there is a lot of good news about obama care. insurance premiums under obama care will actually be generally lower than expected, according to a new kaiser family foundation study. the biggest obama care study to date. for example, take new york, which has the most provider options under obama care. $62 a month. that's how little a 25-year-old in new york state earning $25,000 a year may have to shell out for health insurance in 2014 after the tax credit. and if that same 25-year-old moved to vermont, one of the states with the fewest insurer options, she could pay zero in monthly premiums after a tax credit. not exactly the spike in premiums that many conservatives predicted. and since voting 40 times to repeal obama care didn't work, republicans in congress appear to have a new plan to stand in the way of obama care.

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who's your girlfriend? his name is chad. and that's where babies come from. [ male announcer ] sometimes being too transparent can be a bad thing. this looks good! [ male announcer ] but not with the oscar mayer deli fresh clear pack. it's what you see is what you get food. it's oscar mayer. last year in the midst of a presidential campaign, president obama joked that former president bill clinton was his secretary of explaining stuff. the former president clinton continued in that role this past wednesday in arkansas, breaking down obama care for the masses, and for the republicans still in denial. >> this does give us the best chance we've had to achieve nearly universal coverage, provide higher quality health care, and lower the rate of cost increases, which we have got to do in a competitive global economy. and finally, it is the law.

and i think we have -- we've all got an interest in trying to faithfully execute the laws. if you get one of these elected jobs, you actually take an oath to do that. >> oh, bill clinton nerding it up and joking it up. it's so bill clinton. more than three years after it became law, it seems like it shouldn't be necessary to explain that the affordable care act is, in fact, law. but more than four in ten americans surveyed in a new kaiser family foundation pole either within the sure obama care is still the law or thought congress or the supreme court got rid of it. and a little more than half the public said they don't have enough information about obama care to understand how it will impact them and their family. so who's going to help bridge this information gap? well, for one, the reigning super bowl champions. like the boston red sox did, the

baltimore ravens will be promoting obama care, but only in the state of maryland. as far as all the other states, the obama administration recently awarded $67 million to more than a hundred groups around the country to act as navigators to help the uninsured understand their options under the new health law. but now republicans on the house energy and commerce committee have sent a letter to these navigators, demanding extensive paperwork, essentially requiring them to spend time doing busy work, instead of educating the uninsured. protesting this busy work, congressman henry waxman, who wrote to the committee chairman, quote, the timing of these letters is particularly suspect. indeed, it appears that these requests may have been sent solely to divert of small community groups. joining me now, live from detroit, is dr. herb smitherman, assistant dean of community and urban health at wayne state university school of medicine. also with me, igor wolski, of thinkprogress.org, professor of politics, amaney jamal, law

professor, david cay johnston, and democratic strategist, tara dowdel. i want to start with you, dr. smitherman. why do so many people still not know that obama care is law or have any idea what it does? >> well, you know, when it was first enacted, they spent a year, the republicans spent a year fighting the legislation. since then, you know, between its enactment in 2010 and its full implementation in 2014, there have been 40 attempts to repeal it in the house. most of the states are refusing to either launch the exchanges, so the feds have to step in, or refusing to expand medicaid. so there have been just a lot of misinformation and confusion over the last four years, including just significant opposition to the law. and all this misinformation is confusing the public. and in addition to that, as

states are waiting to figure out whether they're going to, for example, launch the exchange or expand medicaid, the states are paralyzed to really advertise what's going to happen if they don't know for example whether medicaid is -- expansion of medicaid is going to actually occur. >> so we started this show, like, syria 101. the things you need to know to make some kind of reasonable public opinion decision about whether or not you support strikes. so let's do this real quickly for aca. dr. smitherman, what do people need to know about october 1? what are the key maybe two or three things that viewers need to know about what is going to change for them on october 1st? >> first of all, if you are uninsured currently, that's 50 million people, you should go to your state department of health and human services or your department of human services, to find out what you're eligible for. whether you're eligible for the expansion of medicaid or whether you're eligible for one of the

exchange products. there are navigators that you just talked about, $67 million spent on navigators across this country. these people are to help you understand and negotiate what are the best products for you. there's money being placed at federal qualified health centers to help outreach to communities. i can tell you, most of the uninsured, 25% of them, are in federally qualified health centers. about 50 to 60% of them are in emergency rooms. if we can hit the emergency rooms and the federally qualified health centers with outreach navigators, we will really educate the population on what products will be beneficial for them. >> so i look at table and ask exactly that. is that the goal of this obstruction and sort of miscommunication, to make sure we don't reach those people, the doctor just now said, would make a big difference in the system. >> precisely, the navigators are key. which is why republicans are literally flooding them with paperwork. it's exactly what they complained about the irs. that the irs sent these tea

party groups, all these forms and questions to fill out these small groups that couldn't handle it had to do all of this work. they're doing the same thing here, and these groups have really a couple of weeks to fill all this out and send it back, while they're trying to enroll people on october 1st. the other piece here that's really, really devious is that they sent the requests to people who are operating -- states that are operating the federal exchanges. and as it happens, these are the exchanges in the states where there are the most uninsured people. so the people who need health care the most may now not have it or have a harder time get it because the navigators are overwhelmed filling out forms. >> so let me ask this. on the one hand, it feels devious, it feels like the kind of tricks -- and yet, at this point, the obama administration had to know that this was the sort of thing that was going to happen. you know, they're ticking down, less than four weeks now. where is the democratic side, major initiative, major push, big money to say, we are going to counter this kind of thing with information overload.

you can't go anywhere without hearing about october 1 and obama care. >> no, you're exactly right. and i will say this, that the administration initially, i think, was unprepared for the type of pushback, just the aggressiveness and the unrelenting nature of the pushback. the republicans had been running what i call a fear and smear campaign from day one. and it continues. and i think it goes beyond just obstructionism. this is about sabotage. and i'll say this, because they're specifically trying to stop young people for signing up. because the more young people that sign up, the lower the costs go. because young people, by definition, are healthier, so they spread the risk. and i just want to add one point to piggyback on what the professor said. and i think you asked him a great question. when people need to know is, if they go on to the website of the affordable care act and they click on their state, they can then, on october 1st, look at what options are available to them online in that state. and there is money for people, if they cannot afford a policy,

there are subsidies and tax credits that are available to them. some people will pay nothing. they will pay less. this is important information. small business owners, there's a 35% tax credit that goes up to 50% if you already are providing insurance, or if you so decide to do so. i am a small business owner, i will be take advantage of that. >> i feel like you should be the secretary of explaining stuff. just to say, step one. go to the website. step two, you can now see what is available to you. step three, if you don't have enough money, there is a subsidy for it. step four, if you are a small business owner, no matter what you've heard about how bad this is for you, actually, this is quite good for you. and yet i feel like, so -- like, i want an army of people, not just the baltimore ravens, although good job, doing this. >> well, it's remarkable, they've spent, the opposition, half a billion dollars on television ads alone, since 2010. half a billion dollars. and the obama administration only has a pattern here.

if you remember, when it was becoming law, obama waited years -- like a year to get involved, to really get out there and give those fiery speeches. here he's doing the same thing. it's great to have the secretary of explaining things, but where was he a year ago? two years ago? we've got to get this effort underway. states are doing it, but we need more help. >> before we lose you, let me ask you one important question here. and that is, what is -- what happens if, in fact, tara's right and this is about sabotage? what happens if the people don't go and sign up starting october 1? does it effectively end up doing the one thing those 40 votes couldn't do it? does it kill acla? >> no, because we actually have, from the laws is enacted january 1st. so between october and january is when people can go find out what options and what insurance programs that are available for them. they can actually sign up, open

enrollment is between october 1st and march 31st, 2014. so they actually have seven months. but this three months is a time where people can go and find out what is available for them. so, you know, i believe -- and young people, as was said, is extremely important for this. and we know that, when we kblepted the same plan, you know, we call romney care, in massachusetts, we saw that in the first year, about -- the number of uninsured young people dropped by 62%. when you think people are offered health insurance in the market place at their jobs, at employment, almost 70% sign up. young people sign up. there's not a barrier for young people. the biggest barrier for them is, a, awareness, and b, cost. >> thanks so much for joining us. we'll stay on this topic. when we come back, i want to get to the story of who else is trying to stick a dagger in the

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republicans who are throwing a wrench into the machinery of obama care exchanges is prepared to open on october 1st. aetna, the third largest health insurer in the united states last week decided not to sell insurance on new york's individual health care exchange. new york is the fifth state aetna has pulled out of in the last few weeks. david, should i be freaked out about that? >> no, i don't think so. there are other insurance companies. and in 30 of the stays, one insurer has more than half the individual market. aetna is looking out for its own personal business interests here. >> this is not an indication that major insurers, united and others, are going to just start opting out of this exchange. >> even if they do, it's an opportunity for others to grow. >> this is how you potentially end up with exactly what a marketplace ought to be. >> yes, yes. >> on the whole, you're seeing a good number of insurers participating all across the country. it's pretty clear that consumers are going to have a lot of

options in all these different tiers of coverage. if they want more coverage, less coverage, that's all going to be available. so while aetna is doing what makes sense for its business, it really -- the larger picture is, choice is going to be there on january. >> so, amaney, as i was listening to former president clinton sort of doing his explaining, and he has this moment where he says, this is about as close as we're going to get to universal coverage, so we've got to make it work. and i get that. i'm very, you know, on board with that argument, this is about as close as we're going to get. but as we've been talking, even in the break, about this level and that level, and this state and that state, i keep thinking, man, what if this could have just been universal coverage? >> universal coverage is a far stretch and it would require significant reforms and i don't think you would have had, you know, certainly, the republican party wouldn't have been on board, and certainly members of the democratic party wouldn't be on board. but even with the clinton speech itself, i mean, it was a complicated speech. >> yeah. >> i don't think the average american appreciates what obama care has to offer. and it raises a question of why

aren't we targeting -- or why isn't the obama administration targeting these reforms at the state level in a more effective kind of campaign? >> because the things that americans do know about, that they really get, they like. so the "you can cover your kid," right, into their mid-20s. people get that, they understand it, they took immediate advantage of it, and they like it. and in fact, if republicans tried to repeal that part of it, there would be an outcry across the political spectrum. can they do just sort of a marketing that says, all right, you know, this thing or this thing or this thing, so that people get at least the pieces of the law, if not all of it. >> it's maybe not the obama administration that's running it. what you see in some states is really remarkably creative campaigns. in california, you have a "get covered" campaign, where you're going to have billboards of naked people with strategically placed signs saying "get covered." in connecticut, they're handing out sunscreen that says "get covered." in washington, they're putting ads on port-a-potties, and everywhere else in creative places, to kind of spread the

word about the law. >> but if you live in louisiana and have an on instructibstruct bobby jindal in place, you would think this is not even occurring. >> there are a lot of states like louisiana that have these medicaid waivers that cover populations that traditional medicaid doesn't. and they're all up for renewal. so in renegotiating them, the administration said, we'll continue to approve this waiver, if part of that population that you had previously covered with medicaid dollars goes into the exchange, and it's good for a year. so next year when you have to renew it again, you'll have no choice but to really expand medicaid and it kind of gets them hooked on obama care, and they'll have to implement it down the road. >> this is interesting. this isn't just about a direct campaign to the public, this is about incentivizing the lawmakers. do you have a sense of what incentivizes the lawmakers to implement better? >> i think what's happening is, and this is a good thing, and i think we started to see this in texas, oddly enough, but what's happening is some of the disabled and elderly people that

are being impacted, if these -- if the states don't allow for some of these reforms to go in place, have now awoken to the fact that, wow, this is a problem. so you have organizations like aarp, who are pushing back and who are saying and educating their population, educating their members, so now, i think people in some states are starting to develop, you know, sort of a ground swell and saying, look, we want this expansion of medicaid. we want some of this additional medicare support that was also in obama care. and so i think, that's really where you're going to see, i think, it has to be the grassroots. i think the administration needs to empower the grassroots and give them the information and the resources, but it has to be the organizations that people trust and that they bought into, pushing back. and when that happens, you see change. we saw it in new jersey. you see it in texas, even arizona. governor jan brewer. >> that's a really good point. in our highly partisan environment, to hear a message coming from the obama administration is not going to penetrate for lots of folks, but

from the aarp, it will. igor and amaney and david and tara, thank you all for being at the table and for helping us try to get a little bit of aca 101 on the table here. up next, one woman, a whole lot of food, and a really big bus. our foot soldier is here. has it's ups and downs. seasonal... doesn't begin to describe it. my cashflow can literally change with the weather. anything that gives me some breathing room makes a big difference. the plum card from american express gives your business flexibility. get 1.5% discount for paying early, or up to 60 days to pay without interest, or both each month. i'm nelson gutierrez and i'm a member of the smarter money. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. let's see what you got. rv -- covered.

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according to the usda, 2.1 million households are less tmon two miles have a grocery store and have no access. they are in what's called the food deserts. starting this month tonya field and her project are bringing healthy food to the south bronx here in new york city in a mural

painted, music blasting school bus. it will be fueled by vegetable oil. her goal is for the bus to roam throughout the bronx providing a street side store front for those looking to buy fresh p produce. she's already raised $65,000. tonya fields is our foot soldier of the week. i am moved in part by the fact you were moved by your own personal experience to do this. tell me that a little bit. >> i came to the south bronx, 22 years old with a 3-month-old baby still putting myself through school. i came to this community with a lot of the same predispositions and biases that a lot of other folks did. i didn't know much about the bronx except yankees, prostitution and the botanical gardens. there was so much that validated

the bias i had and i found a community that brought itself back from the brink of death. i saw a community that be was resilient. you hat the hot boys on one corner and the others in the middle of the block with the drums and dancing and that's what really tapped into me. as i had my second child at 23 still working my way through school not really have a ton of support, i started to gain a lot of weight. i had a chain who became a chronic asthmatic because she was subjected to the 16,000 diesel truck trips we get every day in my community, much of it from the transportation of food. she developed food allergies. >> this food piece, i love that you paint. this is the stereotypes of our communities that they're all one thing or the other. the fact that they're all of these things at the same time. if people cannot feed themselves

fresh, healthy foods, what options do you have to make sure in that mix of things she becomes the set of things that you're valuing. >> i think that's what happens. i know people use the term food desert. i don't feel like it applies to new york. more like food apartheid. i had to lug them on a train, because i didn't have a car, we're going down to fareway or trader joes. after a while that's not a realistic set of expectations. people will eat what is in walking distance to them. also this idea of food access, food hardship, it's a reflection of deeper things that's happening. it's important to do a project to catalyse.

>> what is that bus going to do not only to bring food to people's doorsteps but these other issues? >> we do feel like this was magic school bus. i was like what, yes. magic school bus. it's really also about community building. i would like to think i'm brilliant and in some ways i am but i'm standing on the shoulders of folk who is have done so much to get this community to aplace to do this project. we wants to make sure the bus supports that. we're starting out as a buying club where we will be delivering boxes of food and sustainable meats. we're going through the permitting process. we've had folks from the new york city department of health to help us through that. we also are talking with folks like the laundromat project or the point cdc, mothers on the move. how does this bus support the things they're doing so people

with realize we have the tools we need right here. we need to do a better job at networking. the actual mobility will allow us to do that. it's great because it's doing it in way that's like clean air energy. >> it's so visible. i'll be able to see it, hear it, eat from it. we'll keep our eye on it. i told you when you sat down i got 45 minutes worth of stuff to talk to you about but three minutes to talk to you in. we have an interview on the web. you are brilliant and i love the work you're doing. that's our show for today. tanya fields is our foot soldier. i'll see you tomorrow morning, 10:00 a.m. eastern. we're going to take a closer look at fashion week. this will be too much fun. where are the women of color on the cat walk? right now it's time for a preview of weekends with alex witt. >> you look great today. >> president obama and russian

president putin met at the g-20. what went on behind closed doors? chunks of the beach are being swallowed up. why the situation is so dire? rhoades scholar west moore tells me about another man sitting in prison with his name. it's a story i couldn't turn away from. i'll be right back.

new and important twists overseas this hour on syria. is john kerry convincing any other countries to join the u.s. in a military strike. making his case. president own with a new message today on syria. it comes just days before he makes a national appeal. will the public buy it? in florida, it's a coastlining crisis. a new report on how beaches may be disappearing as the sands of time slip away. the number one selling car