part of a united nations resolution. where things stand now and rocky mountain recall. why the first team says democrats across the country should be worried about the gop's victory in colorado yesterday. plus, what could the ipad reveal? police say it could be months before they find out if there's any evidence on the ipad smashed during a fight between george zimmerman and his estranged wife. the latest on this investigation and new details for you. news nation is following late word from russia that moscow has given the obama administration the plan for placing syria's chemical weapons under international control. however, there's already a potential snag in those plans with russia reportedly objecting to any u.n. resolution that includes the use of force if syria does not comply. still in the past hour, white house pret secretary jay carney remained optimistic.

>> we are doing the responsible thing here, which is testing the potential here for success of resolving this matter and deterring syria from using chemical weapons again through diplomatic means. i expect this will take some time. but we also are not interested in delaying tactics and we believe it's very important to hold assad accountable. >> there are new questions about how any plan to seize syria's chemical weapons would be possible. a new report by the united nations is calling the entire country, quote, a battlefield where both sides are carrying out war crimes including massacres and hostage taking and shelling of civilian neighborhoods. second of state kerry will leave to meet with his russian counterpart in geneva, switser lands. following president obama's

address to the nation last night, harsh reaction today from key republican senators, including the second highest ranking republican in the senate, john cornyn and john mccain who has been backing the president. >> making an argument for action while we're in a quote, pause while we wait for john kerry to negotiate with the people who are supplying beginning yesterday, they began again, weapons to bashar al assad and i was very disappointed that the president did not mention the free syrian army and our moral and material assistance that is required. they do feel they are being abandoned. >> it will be harder to maintain our global military dominance if we waste precious resources.

our credibility and political capital on hasty misguided unbelievably small interventions. >> i cannot support an operation that is so poorly conceived and foolishly telegraphed and virtually guaranteed to fail. >> joining me live, karen bass of california, congresswoman, thank you for your time. as i understand it following the president's remarks, you had a telephone town hall with constituents. i'm being told with your staff, about 65,000 constituents were participating here. what did you hear from them regarding the president's address? >> first of all, we called 65,000 people and we had about 15,000 that were on the line at any period of time. we heard a mix, my constituents are certainly very concerned about having a war with syria and us intervening, however, on the other hand, we did a poll and about 2,000 people participated on the poll.

and 39% said they would support a resolution allowing the president to intervene if necessary in a limited strike. about 33% said no and about 29% were unsure. i certainly hope that that does not have to happen at all and i'm very encouraged by the fact there is a little bit of an opening. three days ago we couldn't even envision where we're at right now. i know that this is going to be a long process, but secretary kerry hasn't even arrived in geneva yet. i do believe we have a long way to go but there's hope here. the door has been open and we need to drive a truck through the door. >> to your point, the president last night cautiously holding out as your word is hope for this russian plan. let me play a little of what the president said. >> it's too rl early to tell if this succeed, must verify that the assad regime keeps its

commitments. i have leaders of congress to postpone a vote while we pursue this diplomatic path and ordered our military to maintain their current posture to keep the pressure on assad and to respond if diplomacy fails. >> some of the criticism today of the president's address is that it seems that he was back and forth on one account. he's making the case of why chemical weapons unacceptable, the use of it globally. and it is necessary to take a strong military response on the second part of that, you heard the president discuss in a sense being in a holding pattern here, despite the atrocities that the administration confirms and believes fully happened at the hands of the assad regime. >> well, i don't think it's a holding pattern. i mean, just think of what was happening by the minute over the last couple of days. three days ago assad wouldn't even acknowledge he had chemical weapons. i frankly believe that absolutely he had them.

he was responsible. i most certainly do not want to see us have to do a strike. and i think that we have an opportunity here through diplomatic means. and i do believe the pressure of the world needs to fall on russia and syria to do the right thing, to dismantle those chemical weapons to bring in the u.n. and to abide by international law, that more than 180 countries have already signed the treaty. syria said they are open to doing it. we need to hold their feet to the fire. >> some of the reporting today as we reported at the top of the show, there seems to be a snag in that russia is unwilling at least at this point to back a plan that would ultimately result in military action if syria does not commit to the removal and destruction of those chemical weapons. this is already at least prior to as you pointed out the big talk happening in switzerland.

>> i think a door has been opened but this is barely off the ground. i think we need to see what happens when secretary kerry gets over there. i think this is going to take awhile. but i really do believe that the pressure of the world needs to come to bear and demand a diplomatic solution. >> karen bass, california, thank you so much for your time. >> thank you. >> let me bring in our political panel, joining me now, michael smer connish and phyllis, thanks you both for joining us. your take on the probability, if there is a plan. we have a u.n. report indicating massacres, multiple at the hands of the regime and one at the hand of rebels but describing syria as a battlefield, thousands of lives lost there.

the probability of this plan of removing chemicals weapons is that at this point a diversion, how do you assess combined from what we heard from the president last night? >> i don't think it's a diversion, i think it's a crucial approach, it's about time we got away from this false notion that the only choice is to do nothing or use military force. there are a host of internationinternash international diplomatic tools to be used. there's united nations and chemical weapons treaty and international criminal court and all of these things, the negotiations that will begin in geneva. and i'm optimistic and hopeful. i'm a little optimistic but very hopeful -- >> with your knowledge you have, what do you believe is the key component in sealing this deal? i believe a lot of people work up after hearing the president and felt, we might be at a point here but what is the primary component to getting this done beyond talk? >> i think the primary component is getting all sides to agree this is going to be solved without the use of more military

force. and that the ending of the -- of the chemical weapons arsenal in syria has to be linked to beginning the process of ending the war in syria. that's the significance of the u.n. report. if the u.s. insists that the resolution in the council again be taken under chapter 7 and have the authority to use force, it's not going to pass. it won't be only a russian veto, i'm guessing the u.s. would not even get the nine necessary positive votes in the security council because the mood right now internationally is to deal with this through diplomacy. if you start by demanding there be a legitimacy of force, you're undermining the diplomacy from the beginning. i think what's going to have to happen, the discussion in geneva between secretary kerry and foreign minister lavrov will have to include, how can the two powers bring together their respective sides in the syrian

civil war at whether we call it geneva two or something else, it's going to have to be a new set of talks that includes the ending of syria's chemical arsenal but goes way beyond that to work on bringing the war to an end. >> let me bring you in on this. obviously there's great encourage. and optimism from the american people to washington lawmakers regarding this developing with diplomacy. but i want to read a bit of what andrew sullivan wrote. he says in part, the truth is his threat of war galvanized the world and america, raised the profile of the issue of chemical weapons more powerfully than ever before and assured this atrocity would not be ignored and an initiative to resolve the issue without use of arms. this is a different take from what we're hearing even from liberal bloggers out there. andrew sullivan believing without this threat from the president we would not be discussing this diplomacy.

what do you make of his speech and at least that thought? >> well, i was surprised by the lack of emotion in the speech and the lawyer in me was anticipating something more of an evidentiary presentation that he has made or secretary kerry has made or any member of the administration has made. that's really part of what is lacking. i'm thrilled they are pursuing a diplomatic path but we're left with assad and putin and i can't think of two more untrust worthy individuals. the question becomes one of verification. how will we verify and make sure it's carried out? >> let me bring in michael crowley for "time" magazine. i want to follow up on what michael said. maureen dowd makes the same point, we can't trust soulish putin or heartless assad.

by tuesday putin peace maker was already setting conditions and keir simmons is reporting that russian officials have been meeting behind closed doors. i want to pick up on michael's point. you have a man accused of killing hundreds of thousands and 400 children with chemical weapons and vladimir putin not in the slatest someone that could believe has the best interest of the united states in any of his decisions. what do you make here of who do we trust? >> well, you know, i think that trust will only get you so far, which is why they want to get this process moving quickly, why the administration wants to make pretty clear. you ideally would like to have early tests and united nations and public commitments where people are -- you at least get people to make commitments to show good faith but then you have strong verification every step of the way. it's the only way you can do it. there will be some element of

trust here. and there are going to be a lot of opportunities for people to act in bad faith and break the trust. but this -- you know, leads to the fundamental truth about the civil war in syria and the united states is in, there are no easy options or good way out. the obama administration is saying this is probably the least bad of the terrible options, let's at least take it for a spin around the block. >> thank you as well. great pleasure speaking with all three of you. >> we'll talk to democratic congresswoman -- democratic senator tammy baldwin, who came out against action in syria just hours after meeting with the president. we'll talk with the senator after the break. a day of remembrance. 12 years after 9/11, americans all across our great nation paused to remember the victims and of course those heroes of that fateful day.

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my father, daddy, i miss you so much. you're forever in our hearts. and i know you're watching over us today. i love you, daddy. >> the heartbreaking tribute from a daughter who lost her father on 9/11. hundreds of others packed today's remembrance at the national september 11th memorial where the twin towers once

stood. it was just one of the many events held across the country where mourners honored 2,193 victims. this morning, at 8:46 a.m., a moment of silence was held at the white house and ground zero. the president participated with the first lady and vice president dr. joe biden. later the president laid a wreath at the private event for families who lost loved ones there. after speaking he took time with a little girl, her name is zoe, her sister died when the flight crashed into the pentagon. in shanksville, officials red the name of the 40 victims who died there. let's go to new york where craig melvin is there at ground zero. it has always been about the families and remembrance, no politicians and some of that

disappeared where you really feel the soul and pain in a different way i thought today. >> reporter: yeah, that's a great way of putting it, tamron. that somber ritual that started the year after 9/11 and continued today, 8:47 a.m., the family members, victims of 9/11, they started to read those names. that continued until about 12:30. i spent the morning talk to some folks around ground zero. they shut down a number of roads and the police presence here considerably more than what it usually is on an average weekday morning. some folks were tourist and i asked them, you know, whether it seems as if we are making good on that promise to never forget. and the answers variousried. some folks thought that we -- felt like we were doing a pretty good job of honoring lives lost that day and others this morning were very honest and candid with me. they said, no, i think we

probably have forgotten, some of the lessons of 9/11. also had an interesting conversation this morning with police commissioner ray kelly as well and we talked about new york city then versus now. i asked point blank, are we safer today than we were 12 years ago? he said yes but added there are still some legitimate threats out there. >> we know the world is a dangerous place and gotten smaller as a result of 9/11 and what happens in places like syria and nemen and north africa, they can impact on us here in new york city. we haven't forgotten. the city has not forgotten. the police department has not forgotten certainly. >> reporter: i asked him that question after i pointed out the fact you look at any major newspaper in the city, not on the front page any of the major papers of the city, you would be

hard pressed to find a paper where 9/11 ks the commemoration or domestic policy or foreign policy, where it made front page news. but commissioner kelly said, you know, maybe we -- maybe it's not that we've forgotten. maybe it's changed. maybe how we remember those who died here 12 years ago, maybe that has changed. >> all right, craig, what a compelling interview. it's been an incredible day of reporting for you as well. if you would like to donate to the 9/11 memorial must seum, yo can log on to 911memorial.org. the president paid tribute to the four americans who died in benghazi. a car bomb exploded out the embassy in benghazi but no one died. known while, the leaders of an independent review board that investigated last year's attack

will testify at the house hearing next week. darrel issa announced mike mullen and former ambassador thom thomas pickering will preside. still ahead, new information on the domestic dispute that had george zimmerman detained now trying to salvage video from an ipad that was smashed during altercation. it's a key part of evidence they are reviewing. plus a big upset for democrats in the first ever recall election. is there a bigger problem for the national party coming down the road? we'll talk to senior political editor mark murray. [announcer] there's no hiding the goodness of the latest from

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footage from an ipad which could be key evidence. home security video, this is it, it shows shellie zimmerman recording with the ipad as the two argued outside their home on monday. at some point during the altercation police say the ipad was smashed. >> we had an opportunity to take a good hard look at that ipad. the ipad is in really bad shape. at this point we do not have the tools available to effectively look at the video on the ipad. >> yesterday police released dash cam video of zimmerman being detained. in shell alie's 911 call she sa he punched her father in the nose. since the case is being treated as a domestic violence case, police get to make the final determination without the ipad,

they may be unable to charge george zimmerman. former prosecutor kendall joins me. it's obvious why police are interested in the story. this is not just some social media following of george zimmerman. this is an actual investigation here. >> when you have allegations of domestic violence, even if the alleged victim immediately back pedals, police still look into it. because, tamron, a lot of times alleged victims of apparent domestic violence back pedal. doesn't mean there wasn't a crime and police know that. they also know that they've got to get to the bottom of it if there is something that happened here. there are three or four scenarios where something may have happened and i emphasize may have happened that would constitute a crime under florida law. >> what you do get a sense of when we watch this news conference earlier with police, they are doing a lot of -- they have a smashed up ipad and

reportedly has video of the altercation, proof of what sh l shellie zimmerman said happened there. they are in the media spotlight involving george zimmerman and investigation vofling him. >> who could not recall what happened to the sanford police department which did an investigation that some said wasn't adequate. they are going to dot their is and cross their ts. they started with the 911 call that if believed would have established in crimes. then she back pedaled. they have work together to put the pieces together. >> if you were advising george zimmerman at this point as his attorney. what would you toll him? he's got two speeding incidents, now this. what would you advise him? >> stay out of sight and stay on the right side of the law. don't even go close to trouble. >> i think that's advise everyone should have. thank you, greatly appreciated. >> thanks, tamron.

>> michael bloomberg's harshest critic places first in the primary. close to avoiding a runoff but at this hour the votes are still being counted. we'll get an update. plus, rotten news for apple, the tech company's stock still trending lower immediately following the big iphone unveiling. getting something "n" and now, there's a plan that lets you experience that "new" phone thrill again and again. and again. can you close your new phone box? we're picking up some feedback. introducing verizon edge. the plan that lets you upgrade to a new verizon 4glte phone when you want to. having what you want on the network you rely on. that's powerful. verizon. upgrade to the new moto x by motorola with zero down payment. before mike could see his banking and investing accounts on one page... before he could easily transfer funds between the two in real time...

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2004. but the question is, is that trend changing? joining me live now, nbc news senior political editor, mark murray. you wrote about this today and first question i have, why isn't this just about rejection of strict gun control laws and not a larger issue for the party? >> you raise a good point. this had a lot to do with gun control and gun control laws enacted. one point worth noting, it is always important never to overanalyze elections like these, they are low turnout affairs. but colorado is a state that democrats have had a tremendous amount of success in and these defeats i think at least give democrats in the state of colorado a little pause and brace the stakes for 2014 when john hickenlooper as well as incumbent are up for re-election. going back to the point on gun control. one of the arguments that a lot

of gun control groups made was the nra doesn't have bite anymore, played in the races and end up losing them. the nra and allies targeted to the democratic state senators were able to defeat them, shows they do have bite in states like colorado. >> to your point, one of the people who said the nra was a paper tiger, michael bloomberg said it on "meet the press" and that transitions me to the new york mayoral raise, big de blasio needed over 40 to avoid a runoff but the ball lots are being counted. it's still -- not up for grabs, that's an overstatement but it has not been confirmed he's the victor there. >> the clock is ticking the runoff would be on october 1st, three weeks from now. if bill de blasio does find himself in a runoff with bill thompson. he'll have a big advantage. all of the polls showed him with a wide lead over thompson in

hypothetical match-ups and doesn't give thompson a lot of time to make up the gap. it will be interesting to see if we have a runoff or not in the next few days. >> the other headline from new york yesterday, is that i guess scandals get you on front page and headlines but doesn't get you a victory. not just anthony weiner but eliot spitzer. i do believe some people were surprised with eliot spitzer going down. >> he had a lead in some polls but his opponent scott stringer had been taking the advantage and was seen as a slight front-runner going into last night's activity. tamron, this year we have had three scandal plagued expoliticians who tried to get back to them and ended up losing, as mentioned anthony weiner and ellioyol spitzer.

a lot to cover there but interesting insight. thanks, mark. a tough day for the world's most valuable company, apple stock taking a tumble a day after the company unveil d its new line of iphones which seems to have left investors unimpressed. joining me now is tyler mathison. they released two new phones, one for the more affordable market and another iphone that was supposed to attract these techkys out there. >> it was guess a case of expectations not met, tamron. 51 weeks ago apple stock sold $702 a share, on september 19 of 2012. today 469.18. yesterday it was above $500 and today down more than $25 a share after it sold off yesterday. in the wake of this announcement they were going to come out with a couple of new modsles of hi

iphone, one including fingerprint technician because it will pave the way for smoother use of electronic payments and little lower version in a rainbow of colors that the company hoped was going to spark sales, most especially offer in china, where the price point of the apple iphone has been perceived as just too high. apparently it just did not ignite, either the technology community nor certainly the investment community. today and yesterday after the announcement, the stock went the other way. >> any reaction from apple? >> no, they are very happy with what they've got going. they sort of, look what sales do, not what wall street says. they've got a point there. these phones have tended to sell very well. my view is that apple does best when they come out with truly new products. think about the ipad and the ipod and think about the

original iphone. they do less well with incremental improvements on those things. people are looking for the watch and looking for a new apple tv. i think until they come out with that kind of revolutionary product, their stock may be sort of in the calms. >> at least a model of phone that looks different from the last two prior, that might help as well. good to talk to you. still ahead, an incredible -- a montana newlywed is facing a judge after police say she confessed to pushing her husband off a cliff and killing him. and new information on the government's controversial surveillance program. reports that the nsa misled the secret court that is supposed to keep the agency in check. it is just one of the things we thought you should know. 5 last . the math of retirement is different today. money has to last longer. i don't want to pour over pie charts all day. i want to travel, and i want the income to do it.

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a montana newlywed who confessed to pushing her husband off a cliff is back in court today. she was charged with second degree murder on monday. the couple was married a little over a week when the two got into an argument. joe fryer joins me with more. she's expected in court a little later? >> she's expected to make a court appearance in montana within the hour. this case is actually taking place in federal court because the victim's body was discovered at a national park. they were newlyweds married only eight days when cody johnson disappeared in july. now his wife, jordan graham is accused of shoving him off a steep cliff at glacier national park. >> when i first met jordan she was very closed off and quiet, not a lot of interaction with anyone. >> reporter: court documents say jordan graham told a friend she

was having second thoughts about being married. dead serious, if you don't hear from me at all tonight, something happened. the next day her husband was reported missing. she allegedly told investigators he went for a drive with a friend. then a few days later a park ranger says his body was discovered during a rugged cliff found by his wife. >> eventually investigators say graham revealed more details about her husband's death, telling them it happened at the park during a heated argument. according to an fbi affidavit, due to her anger, graham pushed johnson with both hands in the back and as a result he fell face first off the cliff. >> did she know by pushing him she was pushing him off a cliff? and those little gradations in intent are the difference between murder, manslaughter and simple accident or even her walking free on an acquittal. >> reporter: graham's attorney

declined to comment. friends of the suspect thought her behavior was a little strange. first at the wedding saying she didn't really make eye contact with the groom during the vows and during the funeral, she just didn't show much emotion. >> thank you very much for that report. we'll see what happens today in court. the first hurricane of the atlantic season tops our look at stories around the "news nation." humberto developed off the african coast but poses no threat to land. the storm was three hours short of becoming the latest forming atlantic hurricane on record. and the 64-year-old woman who successfully swam from cuba to florida is defending her record setting swim. fellow marathon swimmers are questioning how diana nyad made the trip in 53 hours. she and her team are presenting data to three swimming organizations hoping to silence skeptics. nyad denied any charges of

cheating earlier today. >> i did this swim with my own body and my own mind, fair and square, squeaky clean. don't i deserve a little luck after i've had so much bad luck on my previous four tries? i had persistence to keep trying until finally we got a little luck on our side. >> well, still ahead, bullet proof school supplies the latest trend, if you can believe this, in back to school gear. does it promote a false sense of security? it's our "news nation" gut check. hey linda!

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intense negotiations are now under way between the u.s. and russia and other nations seeking diplomatic solution that could force syria to give up its chemicals weapons. joining me now tammy baldwin who just announced yesterday she's

opposed to military reaction in syria. >> delighted to join you, thank you. >> you've said all along the action, the use of chemical weapons was an atrocity but you feel and have felt the u.s. should not go it alone. we have france and perhaps russia involved in diplomacy here. are you optimistic at this point? >> a new path has presented itself that allows us to bring the world community together to deal with the threat of chemical weapons in syria and set a precedent for dealing with them elsewhere. it doesn't involve the use of military force in syria, a country involved in a year's long bloody civil war. and i think that's a path that we have to pursue and show our leadership in bringing the world community together. as i said before, global atrocities demand a global response. >> if this plan does not work and syria does not turn over its

chemical weapons and destroy them, is military action something you would be willing to support? >> again, i think what is important is that we create the ability to be able to handle these in global forums. right now that's the u.n. and i'm going to admit first off that the u.n. is not as functional as we would like them to be especially with regard to the security council. but this is a precedent setting move. we have got to be able to develop and lead a path forward that brings the world's states together to face these challenges and these atrocities. the chemical weapons convention was signed on to by most of the world's nation, 189 nations. we've got to give convention and other treaties that deal with biological weapons and chemical weapons, we've got to give them teeth and figure out a way to enforce them. it can't just be u.s. unilateralism over and over

again. we've got to develop solid institutions to deal with these global challenges. >> then are we to deduce from what you said if syria does not destroy or turn over its chemical weapons that it now for first time even admitted exist, that you still would not support a military action? >> that's not what i said. what i said is the global community has to act on this in concert. now, the u.s. certainly will be a leader in bringing that global community together but i think we have to use the institutions that were set up to enforce treaties and enforce conventions. that means going -- seeing this process throughout. now, you asked me a hypothetical. i'm very hopeful that this new path that's presented itself that doesn't involve the use of military force in syria, is going to show some promise. that's what we're focused on right now. we should be doing everything we

can to make sure that works. i'm glad that the president last night decided to give this path not only a chance but to give it his all. >> senator tammy baldwin, thanks for your time. great pleasure having you on. >> thank you. >> there's a lot going on today. here are some things we thought you should know. newly declassified documents show the nsa routinely violated privacy protections between 2006 and 2009 and misled the court which oversees spying requests. the agency examined phone numbers without sufficient intelligence tieing them to suspected terrorists and may have targeted innocent americans more than previously thought. former massachusetts senator scott brown has landed a new job with a foreign intelligence and gun manufacturing company. brown now serves as an adviser to global digital solutions. in a statement the officials say they are thrilled to have

someone of his stat tour and government experience. students are back to school all across this country and there's a new type of school supply flooding classrooms in the wake of recent school shootings. several manufacturers are bringing protective gear, normally reserved for the military and law enforcement, into american schools. here's more on this new trends in the school year. >> reporter: they are the newest trend in back to school gear. armored accessories. in the wake of recent school shootings from the tragedy in newtown and gunman opening fire in georgia, a number of bullet proof school products are now hitting the market, from $109 clip boards to entire classroom door protectors for $1500. to $299 protective white boards. armor manufacturer hard wire llc makes armored gear for the military. after sandy hook, the ceo, a

parent himself, says he had toe act. >> it was an emotional switch for me. >> reporter: one of their top sellers bullet proof white board. don't let the size or pastel colors fool you. hard wire says this unassuming classroom accessory can stop major fire power. >> if you find yourself in fight mode as a last line of defense, this is the fire extinguisher for gunfire. >> reporter: for many parents it's a welcome trend. delaware mom lisa barr soxt wants to make her daughter's school bag does more than carry books. buying her a bullet proof back pack insert. >> i feel a little more confident she's got one more tool that can ensure her safety. >> even when you know the likeliness of something terrible would happen are very low, you know if something were to happen, that you're going to be a little extra protected. >> reporter: while most of the products are relatively new, companies like hard wire say

they are selling well among families and schools. the university of maryland eastern shore spent almost $60,000 for 200 armored white boards, one for every classroom. >> i feel safe and a lot of other students do feel safe as well. >> reporter: school safety experts say just because students feel safer, doesn't necessarily mean they are. >> may meet the emotional security needs of some parents and educators but it sets parents and kids up with a false sense of security and distracts and diverts from the more practical things we should be doing to improve safety at schools. >> safety experts encourage schools to focus on things like controlling access to buildings and having frequent crisis drills. advocates say if all things should fail, teachers and students need a way to protect themself. do bullet proof school supplies

create false sense of security? quite a question, i know. that does it for "news nation" "the cycle" is up next. [ female announcer ] we lowered her fever. you raise her spirits. we tackled your shoulder pain. you make him rookie of the year. we took care of your cold symptoms. you take him on an adventure. tylenol® has been the number 1 doctor recommended brand of pain reliever for over 20 years. but for everything we do, we know you do so much more. tylenol®.

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>> let us have the courage by survivors and families here today to carry on no matter how dark the night or how difficult the day. >> myron joy aaronson. edward carlino. michael scott car lo. my uncle, salvatore, i was only 3 when you were taken from us and we love you and miss you very much. president obama, please do not bring us to another war. >> another year has passed since the september 11th attacks and 12 years later the wounds are still raw f