're automatically matched up with the charges on your online statement. i'm john kaplan, and i'm a member of a synchronized world. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. the heat is broken but the fever hasn't. why the fall in washington doesn't look good. the start of this sunday morning, we're feeling a little nostalgic. members of congress eventually look back on what is about to unfold in washington. the coming weeks, maybe months have all but guaranteed crisis. how will the leadership be remembered? is it how they would like to be remembered? more on that in a moment. we'll be traveling by ferry and horse and buggy to mackinaw island, michigan, where i heard the trees are the right height to discuss the republican party's plans for the future. is it where the rest of the country wants to go? if we learned anything from the news this week, it is that this

isn't your father's democratic party anymore. in fact, depending on date of your driver's license, it may not be your democratic party anymore. stick around to find out who has gained control of the keys to the party bus. and the amazing carol king, yes, that carol king, will be joining us as a panelist. that is coming up later in the show. among other things, we'll be talking about the political tv shows that we love to hate. but first, there is an immediate drama playing out in washington. it will be short, maybe days, no more than a couple of weeks. at issue, funding of the government. there may yet be a shut down, there may not. we talked about it yesterday. but that drama, that is really just a small part of a much bigger drama and a much bigger story. it is the story of why washington is going to be such a dreadful and depressing place for the rest of this fall. for the rest of this year, maybe for the rest of barack obama's presidency. how dreadful and depressing a place it has been for so much of the obama presidency. and at the heart of both of these dramas, the small one over a shutdown and the big one about

everything is one man and the philosophy he embodies. ted cruz. the question of whether republicans will force a shutdown of the government over the funding of president obama's health care law has everything to do with cruz. he's the one who came up with the idea and he more than anyone popularized it on the right, and he more than anyone is responsible for the fervor that is now fueling the conservative movement and now fueling the republican party to exhaust literally any means, even theoretically possible, to exhaust means that aren't even possible to gut obama care. >> if republicans stand together and say we will not fund government that funds obama care, you'll have an impasse. how do we win this fight? don't blink. >> but it is more than that. the government shutdown -- the government shutdown fight didn't just come out of nowhere. been here before. we have been in situations just like this. up against a hard deadline, with ghastly consequences looming and

the clock ticking so many times since january 2011. and republicans took back control of the house. brinksmanship has been the rule of washington for three years now, continuing resolutions to fund the government, debt ceiling deadlines, the possibility of default, fiscal cliffs. and why? there is more than one reason, but the overriding one is this. republican parties elected representatives in washington dedicated themselves from the very beginning of the obama presidency to a strategy of absolute resistance to the white house and absolute confrontation with the white house. there is no one in the republican party today who better personifies that spirit, who better channels, better shapes the attitude of the party's base than ted cruz. the idea that there is no pure expression of conservatism than to oppose loudly and overheatedly and relentlessly to oppose everything attached to or connected with president obama, cruzzism. it is the spirit that animates the republican base. it has toppled one republican establishment giant after another in primaries, that has

instilled fear into the hearts of every republican office holder today that the biggest threat, maybe the only threat to their job security is being judged by the gop base to be insufficiently conservative. to fall short of the standard that ted cruz and those like ted cruz sets. there was a strange sound coming out of the republican party this week. it was actual frustration with cruz, actual anger toward cruz. it came from some house republicans. a few senators. these are republicans who don't want to shut down the government over obama care funding, who don't want a debt ceiling default because of obama care funding. they haven't been that loud for the last three years, but they were this week. >> this is not the way it should have been done. it is a situation that the house was put in. and i went along yesterday for the purpose of moving the process forward and hopefully exposing these small group of republican senators who are holding the entire party

hostage. >> are the ted cruz types really just a fringe element exerting undue influence over the rest of the party? the rest of the country? or is cruz a more widespread in the gop than peter king gives it credit for? is he actually the outlier? are republicans like him the outliers? like i said it probably going to be a long and ugly fall in washington. but what does -- but what does today's republican party really want out of all of this? do they even know? we're going to tackle the questions right now. to do that, we have norma ornsteen, the author of the book "it's even worse than it looks," also a resident scholar and michelle bernard, attorney, political analyst and the president of the bernard center for women, politics and public policy. former congressman steve laudarette of ohio. andamanda turkle of the

huffington post.com. that quote from pete king we just heard, he voted for this bill that went through the house on friday, that would attach defunding of obama care to the funding of the government and he's saying we're trying to set up ted cruz, expose ted cruz and the ted cruz types by putting the onus on them and proving they can't deliver what they promise. that will change something. do you buy, listening to what peter king said, you do you buys contention? >> not exactly, no. in you wanted to really show up ted cruz, the republicans in the house could have passed something that could actually make it through the senate. but, in fact, 40 or 50 house republicans have held the speaker hostage and basically you've got what is a significant group of people in both houses, more in the house than in the senate in numbers who are pushing this insane policy. and i have to say, steve, you

know, we call it obama care. we could call it grassley care or hatch care or dornburger care. this is a policy that is not some liberal socialist plot. it is actually almost identical to what the republicans in 1993-'94 put out. no public option. it is exchanges that use private insurance. what's happened is other republican leaders have whipped the constituency into a frenzy over this policy, and now they're reaping the rewards of it and the benefits. cruz may be the frontman for this, but this goes much deeper. >> so, we fortunately have a former member of congress here who can speak to this. i know obviously, steve, you know speaker john boehner pretty well. so what norm is talking about there, what is the decision-making behind, you know, from baner's standpoint, we're not going to put something on the floor that can pass the senate, that can be signed by the president, we're going to have this confrontation and play

this out. from boehner's standpoint, what is going on there? >> i have to disagree with norm. it is a small group. if you go back to the beginning of the last congress and look at the role calls, it is 40, 50, 60 house republicans which is not the majority of the republican conference. it is holding it hostage. what they have done is they have kept baner from getting 218 votes. when you can't get 218 votes, you lost the pouwer of the majority, so you shut things down or you go across the hall and talk to nancy pelosi and the bill becomes less republican. he's chosen, i think to preserve his speakership, to follow the rule that if it doesn't have the majority, if you can't pass with republican votes home, we're not going to do it. >> the question is, if it is only 30, 40, 50, 60, if it is a small minority on that side, why haven't we heard -- we heard pete king come out this week and say this. that's not been the story for the last three years. i have not heard many republicans standing up to this minority and trying to isolate

it and say, you know, to stop having to placate them, we need to stand up to them. >> i got to tell you, i left on january 4th, called them chuckle heads, idiots and a number of folks in the house that have done the same thing. if there is 30, 40, 50 of them, there is maybe 25 or 30 of us, but we have been singing that song for the entire time. it is not unlike the democratic caucus in that you have people on either wing, and everybody else sort of in the middle, they're a little sheep-like, oh, man, it is going in this direction, i better -- i like being with the winner, so i'm going to go in that direction. that explains, if you look at the farm bill, how did you get seven full committee chairman to vote against the farm bill? they looked on the board, in the floor of the house of representatives, they saw that this thing was going south, and they decided to get on board before it went -- >> it speaks to some of the pressure from the base too. we'll get to that in a minute. amanda, you cover capitol hill. what do you make of the dynamic, what we're seeing right now? >> i think for many of the members it is hard for them to

stand up to the base because they want to be re-elected. right now what they're doing is basically letting ted cruz and the tea party implode. ted cruz right now is his own worst enemy and he basically walked right into their plan to screw this up. john boehner wanted to forward a deal that would allow the government to be continue -- to continue to be funded. and ted cruz and the tea party said no. so they said, fine, we are giving you exactly what you want, and it is playing out, i think, as they want it. he is -- they are now allowed basically to attack him because he, you know, they're saying he's the head of a secret left wing cabal. he's trying to infiltrate the conservative movement and take it over for liberals and basically commit political suicide. he's walked right into their hands showing that the republican -- the tea party is more about nihilism than it is about governing and actual

philosophy. >> do you think that's going to work, though? now the bill to fund the government with obama care, defunding attached to it, it is going to senate, ted cruz is talking about filibustering that bill because otherwise the democrats have a way of taking the defunding portion out of it. do you think what amanda described, is it actually going to work? >> it is not going to work, but i don't think -- i think he knows it is not going to work, but i don't think they actually care whether it works or not. i think there are two things going on here. i think one of the largest things we see is that it is just not republicans in the house that stand for the republican party, but fox newsstands for the republican party. all of the major conservative radio hosts, quote/unquote, stand for the republican party. i think a lot of the people, public perception is, are pandering to, for example, the rush limbaughs and laura ingraham and ann coulters of the world. from ted cruz's vantage point, they're also thinking about 2014, 2016, party activists and how they deal with democrats in

largely conservative red states. i think they want to get democrats and red states on the record, as saying that they believe in quote/unquote, obama care and hope that will threaten their electability in 2014. >> you know, steve, i think we have to take it to another level as well. if you look at public opinion and the last few years, democrats and independents, by very substantial margins, have said if we have got a confrontation, we should find a compromise. republicans, by very substantial margins, say don't compromise. hold your ground. so ted cruz is now, perhaps, insigi inciting a bunch of people, but now has become a mantra for a broad base and it is even more true for those who turn out and vote in primaries. there are 25 or 30 at most of the steve ladarette part of the party. but if you look at fiscal cliff, 89 senators, including the vast majority of very conservative republicans, voted for a compromise to keep catastrophe

from happening. you can barely get 70 house republicans to support it. when john boehner tried to come up with an alternative to give him some traction and negotiate, a majority of the house republicans rejected it. overwhelming majorities rejected a compromise on aid for hurricane sandy. they almost all voted against the violence against women's act. you've got a very different republican party in the house now. and it reflects a public, which has been incited by fox news, by talk radio, but also the leaders are going along. now you got john boehner saying basically let as not shut down the government, let's put it on the debt cereiling which is insanity. >> i think the clip shows why he's been able to exert so much influence over the republican party in washington and why i would be skeptical that even if boehner gets had his way in the continuing resolution here, i don't think anything will change. i'll play that clip and we'll talk about it when we come back. mine was earned in djibouti, africa. 2004.

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there are a lot of people that don't like to be held accountable. but here was their argument. they said, listen, before you did this, the politics of it were great. the dems were the bad guys, the republicans were the good guys and now we all look like a bunch of squishes. well, there is an alternative. you can just not be a bunch of squishes. >> so that's ted cruz, back in april, we probably all remember that clip. ted cruz versus the squishes. i keep thinking of that moment, i think of it with the debt ceiling and with the general dynamics in the republican party and the reason i'm skeptical that anything will change in the near term future is that ted cruz basically defines himself as the voice of purity. and he's backed up by talk radio

and backed up by freedom works and the club for growth and what the senate conservative fund, all these groups and they create all this noise around what ted cruz is doing. if you're a republican in washington, and you have any interest in governing right now, it necessarily means you have to compromise because you don't control the white house. any kind of governing in washington requires compromise. and the slightest bit of compromise allows ted cruz to stand up and say, there go the squishes again, giving in to president obama, giving in to big government. i don't know if the base craves purity, how you can actually beat that. >> i was the chairman of the squish caucus for 18 years. and they actually did call me that. second of all, ted cruz doesn't speak for the republican party. rush limbaugh doesn't speak for the republican party. they have an outside role on the airwaves in terms of what is going on. the basic tenet to be a good republican, you don't have to follow some ted cruz litmus test. but they have turned it into this bullying tactic that if you don't toe the line on what we say is pure, we're going to come

after you in a primary. >> the thing is, they have backed that threat up in the last few years. i see luger losing in the primary, i see christine o'donnell winning in delaware, i say what that does, amanda, to the average member of congress, even if they don't believe in what ted cruz is saying, better to go along and keep the seat. >> it is so bad for their party in the long run. the tea party, you know, they helped get rid of all of the moderates who would have won the general election in the senate seats. and what it did is paved the way for democrats to pick up seats. they scuttled the grand bargain between john boehner and president obama in 2011, 2012. which would have cut social security benefits and medicare in many progressives didn't like it. the tea party objected and so the republicans in the end got something they didn't want. so they keep saying that you have to toe the line, but in the end, it is just bad for their party politically and policiwise, it is not

accomplishing anything. >> it is not just bad for the party, it is destroying the country and they don't seem to care in the slight bit. i mean, this is a -- what we now see particularly in the house of representatives is a party that is governing by crisis. we can't pass a budget, so we'll let the sequester go through. and sort of chip away at things a little bit at a time because it is too difficult to -- the only thing they vote on is defunding, again, obama care, and you look back and you think about the gun control bill, the violence against women act. children being slaughtered in new town and all over the country, and we can't pass simple pieces of domestic legislation and the only thing they can focus on is the health care act because they want to destroy the president's legacy. something is wrong with that. >> norm, pick up that point, can you look at the rest of this year and game it out for us. what do you see happening in washington? right now we're dealing with the issue, the shut down, if that gets resolved, debt ceiling coming up next. if the shutdown issue gets resolved, it will be for three

months, we'll be dealing with this again in december. are we going crisis to crisis or do you see anything that can change that dynamic? >> the one thing that i hope will emerge from this and i really fear that we're going to have to have a default before we get there, is maybe we institutionalize what became known the last time we had a default crisis as the mcconnell rule, where in effect you can stop having these showdowns over the full faith and credit of the united states. the president can raise the debt ceiling. congress can oppose it, but he can override a veto. or he can veto and keep them from overriding it. without that, we're going to go from crisis to crisis. we're now focusing on the shutdown. we have this farm bill, which is another triumph of the lunatics. and frankly, eric cantor bears a substantial amount of the responsibility. they decided to decouple food stamps from the coalition that used to build farm bills and now they have passed the most punitive cruel and outrageous

measure to make hungry people starve, and if we don't get a farm bill by the end of the month, then milk prices will go to $10 or $12 a gallon. we have got that waiting for us. if we resolve the shutdown, it is not for long. and we may careen from default to default. i don't see anything out there, with leaders who have only encouraged this process, it was the young guns, eric cantor, kevin mccarthy and paul ryan who crafted the strategy of using the debt limit to win the 2010 elections and now the country's reaping what they sowed. >> this is what i hear from the ted cruise types. the issue debt default, i think flemming from louisiana said what happens if there is -- if we default on the debt. he said nothing happens. there is that mind set. this is harmless to do that. then the issue of the shutdown, simply from a position of self-interest, if you're the republican party, looking at the

potential political damage from that, but to listen to ted cruz, to listen to stockman from texas, they're saying, no, actually, we didn't pay a price in 1995. you got the history on that wrong. where is the incentive here for the republican party to say there is damage in any of this? >> 1995 was my first year in the congress. i was there for the shutdown and we did pay a political price. so did president clinton. the country didn't like the fact that people weren't working together. that's the bottom line. and i have to correct something that amanda said, however, that john boehner and the tea party didn't walk away from that deal in august of 2011, if you watch the frontline show on pbs, it was president obama. they thought they had a deal on sunday and president obama wanted $400 billion more and that feeds into this. i'm all for trashing my party, but i'll tell you, it feeds into this because that, and a couple of other occasions, have destroyed the trust that needs to exist between the top leadership of the white house, the speaker, the head of the senate, they don't trust each

other f you don't trust each other, you can't then do the if heness finessing that needs to be worked out. >> washington, d.c. republicans battle it out with each other over this, some people actually want to lead the party nationally, think they can lead the party nationally, can they lead the party nationally? we'll talk about that next. was a truly amazing day. he was a matted mess in a small cage. so that was our first task, was getting him to wellness. without angie's list, i don't know if we could have found all the services we needed for our riley. from contractors and doctors to dog sitters and landscapers, you can find it all on angie's list. we found riley at the shelter, and found everything he needed at angie's list. join today at angieslist.com she took an early spring break thanks to her double miles from the capital one venture card. now what was mrs. davis teaching? spelling. that's not a subject, right?

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let's take a trip to an idyllic place, michigan's mackinaw island. it is in lake huron, between the state's upper and lower peninsulas. mackinaw island is known as the jewel of the great lakes. no cars allowed except for a fire truck. people travel around by horse and buggy. writer alexis detofu visited there. there is the grand hotel with the longest porch, an oasis of tranquil relaxation. the island has been the site of political history, particularly for the republican party, and particularly in september of off election years. 1943, seven years ago, national or republican party leaders gathered there to plot a course it defeat fdr after three executive losses. they failed. in 1963, george romney's moderates and barry goldwaters

conservatives came to an uneasy truce there. in 1987, gop rage and hatred was the headline after the september mackinac meeting which brought about an early standoff between supporters of george h.w. bush and pat robertson. with this weekend's biennial conference, they're there again. scheduled speakers included governor scott walker of wisconsin, bobby jindal of louisiana, rand paul and john thune and karl rove and lance priebus, rick snyder took part in the conference and said he'll seek re-election next year. local tea party actists upset with his support for expanding medicaid in the state were hoping they could recruit a challenger before the conference, but were unable do that, though. for more on the battle over the future of the national republican party, i want to bring in former illinois republican state chairman pat brady, he joins the rest of the panel. and, pat, you know, we'll start with you, you have aspective th.

we're talking about the republican battle and the national battle and you're out there in the states. when you look at what is happening in washington now and think ahead to the 2014 elections and look at party leaders in washington flirting with a shutdown, flirting with a debt ceiling default and look ahead to 2016 and say we're going to have to field a candidate nationally that can run against hillary clinton maybe or somebody like that, do you have any optimism when you watch what is happening in washington now the republican party is positioning itself well at all for the elections? >> i think what we did see, i think, in mackinac are some of the future leaders, people will be our candidates, scott walker, bobby jindal, real serious thinkers, good candidates. the best comment i heard, i think originated in new york where they talked about the republicans need to let people know that we're on your side. that the conservative principles of the republican party, we're out for you, with and to heant

kids get educated, help the country get strong. i think walker and jindal are able to articulate that message. i think a government shutdown will be bad news for republicans nationally. >> whoever it is on the republican side who is trying to emerge and be a viable national candidate, i see the national republican party branders, it is at a point where it was when the republicans forced the impeachment of clinton in 1998, a toxic number right now, how can a republican in aspiring national republican party be appealing to the national general election audience and distance himself or herself from the national party without alienating that base we were talking about in fist part of the show? >> you can't. but i don't think anybody's approval ratings are doing real well, by the way, from the president and the democrats. i think it is pops on all houses. to the point that in my mind the fight that is going on in the republican party at the moment is that you have this group, this conservative group, that

believes the reason we're not winning national elections is because we're not conservative enough and they point to the fact that the evangelicals and others sat at home during the president's re-election. i don't happen to believe that. if you look at the numbers, i think the independents got scared, and they left us. just like they left nancy poltni in 2010 because she was scaring them with some stuff. why are we not being successful nationally? because we're not feeding enough red meat to the base. again, in ohio, i'm from a swing state, you're from a swing state -- >> trying to make it a swing state. president's -- >> it is like a pendulum in a clock. we won't win swing states until we appeal to a broad bush. if you look at ohio, romney thought he won ohio, we knew because obama had gone in in august, with all the bain capital stuff and so on, fiscally conservative, socially moderate women were never coming

back to him. and that's how you win elections. >> michelle, it is -- it seems to me it is the same dynamic. talking about republican elected officials in washington, members of the house, members of the senate, looking at their next primary and saying, you know, if i'm judged insufficiently pure by the ted cruz wing, by the club for growth, the social conservatives, i'm going to lose my primary, any republican who wants to run for president in 2016 has to be competitive in iowa, south carolina, and all these states where it is the same base and who sort of take their cues from the same, you know, national leaders. >> and this is what i think -- why we're seeing such a large splinter in the republican party. how do you win elections but also govern the country and run as a reasonable candidate? to me, the most interesting story about mackinac over the weekend, who wasn't there. chris christie was not there. jeb bush was not there. these are people, to me, that are -- that are -- they are reasonable republicans, they know how to increase the base, they know how to reach out to

hispanics, they know how to reach out to african-americans, they know how to reach out to women, and still maintain quote/unquote conservative principles. >> i have to take issue with the two folks you mention not being here. the rhetoric i heard out of this is not the far right bomb throwing stuff we heard in the last couple of months. i think it was actually a good vision of what we need to do, saying what you said. scott walker and so did bobby jindal. >> what are they saying it is different than what is coming out of washington? what are they saying that is going to sound any different to a voter who looks at washington and says i can't believe what the republicans are doing now? what are they saying that is different? >> i think what they're saying and this week, to me, was amazing, in one respect. i mean this out of total respect as a catholic. the holy father this week to me was the best political consultant that anybody could have. he said, hey, we have to not change our priorities, but we

principles, but maybe change our priorities. we don't need to focus on gays and contraception, and abortion. let's talk about the issues that we can help people on, get on your side on, which the republicans do well on the economic issues, the national security issues. i think you saw a lot of that out of this conference this weekend, which, to me, shows that the people that you're talking about, that scream and yell a lot, don't control the party and those are the people at the end of the day aren't going to win. >> we have -- there was a little bit of news that came out of it from rand paul who did participate and made some news. we'll tell you what that news is and pick it up after this. not double-talk. if you have the nerve to believe that in a puzzling financial world, clarity is king. [ man ] if you believe nothing beats a sit-down for knowing where you stand. [ male announcer ] join the nearly 7 million investors who think like you do: face time and think time make a difference. join us. [ male announcer ] for 90 years,

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small change, big difference. guys, you took tums® a couple hours ago. why keep taking it if you know your heartburn keeps coming back? that's how it works. you take some tums®. if heartburn comes back, you take some more. that doesn't make any sense. it makes plenty of sense if you don't think about it! really, honey, why can't you just deal with it like everybody else? because i took a pepcid®. fine. debbie, you're my new favorite. [ male announcer ] break with tradition, take pepcid® complete. it works fast and lasts. get relief from your heartburn relief with pepcid® complete. rand paul did make some news at mackinac republican conference this weekend, talking to reporters and he said, as this crisis sort of unfoaled in washington, i am acknowledging we can't probably defeat or get rid of obama care. but by starting with our position of not funding it, maybe we get to a position where we make it less bad. norm, that's kind of a striking quote for a couple of reasons.

it breaks with ted cruz and what sort of the ted cruz wing has been saying a little bit. but also, i wonder, does this pass for what is moderate in the republican party? >> that's about what passes for what is moderate. what is interesting is you had this trio, it is likely ted cruz, rabnd paul, all together. paul, i think for strategic reasons, decided to get distance here. he must see a train wreck ahead and decided to get apart from it. but you're not seeing that in other cases. maybe bobby jindal was a little more moderate, but this is a guy who said we shouldn't be the stupid party and has basically veered sharply to the right as most of the presidential candidates have. marco rubio decided to compensate for his support on the immigration bill by going off into ted cruz territory, including obama care. you have a presidential nominating party that is dominated by the south and a party that otherwise is dominated by a bunch of house members who are in districts that are homo genius echo

chambers all pushing them to the right. maybe chris christie, rand paul can move away from that and provide an alternative. most of the other candidates are crowding over to the defund obama care blow up the country wing. >> that and maybe somebody can explain this, what really struck me about the last few years, in the wake of the 2012 election, when barack obama gets re-elected, i'm thinking back to how the republican party handled losing in the 1990s. the opposition, back then, in a lot of cases overheated, we had impeachment, i don't mean to understate any of that, you look at how the party evolved in the late 1990s, they evolved to the middle of the spectrum in response to clinton winning. that's where george w. bush and passion at conservatives, that's where it came from, a response to clinton beating them and saying we need to get to where the middle of the country is. i'm seeing the exact opposite response. a republican party that with every defeat gets more and more

conservative. >> as the one woman on the panel today, and as a woman who believes in the free market and believes in limited government, i think one of the things we have to say is that at the republican party, at the national level, is in serious need of a major dose of estrogen. as long as we have party leaders talking about vaginal probes, voting against the violence against women act, that really not doing anything to put forth a sound education policy, republican party leaders who are scared to say anything about, for example, the killing of trayvon martin, i mean, these are all social issues that really matter. and even for republican women, who believe in the economic message of reasonable conservatives, you're not going to get the women's vote and not going to win national elections without women, i had spannics a hispanics and african-americans. >> we don't hear a lot about that, a lot of what she's saying from national republicans, they don't believe any of that or they feel unsafe saying it in the party today. what is going on there? >> i agree with her assessment.

i have about hearing that out of some of the governor candidates and more people. scott walker, he just enrages people on the far left. but scott walker actually runs pretty mainstream -- gives a pretty mainstream speech. you're right, we need more women. we need more hispanics. i think the tone has changed. i think people realize that. i think we're moving in that direction. that's what i saw this weekend. i completely agree that we need more of that representation of the party or we're done. >> three quick points. i think senator paul's observations are made by a guy, like the dog who got the car. uh-oh, the house sent us this, we don't have 60 votes for a filibuster, what are we going to do? he's trying to get out of the way of the train. michelle is right. you saw the chairman of the party say after the president was re-elected that 58-page manifesto, we have to -- we're not going to win elections if we don't have women voting for us and we have to be embracive.

others have tried to take that message and just yank it with all of their force to the right, and, again, this will not be settled until the debate within the party is do we have enough people to vote for a republican national figure to regain the white house or do we not -- or will we always be the majority party in the house based problem upon redistricting and regionals. >> thank you. the battle lines that are dividing democrats. we'll get to them, that's next. [ male announcer ] imagine this cute blob is metamucil.

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i can tell it is not the 1990s anymore. no one is trying to sell laser discs anymore. it has been a long time since i've seen this lady. >> stop the insanity! >> all these things are very good signs that we are no longer in the 1990s. and so is this. these two men. more than anyone else, almost anyone else, they symbolized

what the democratic party wanted and what the democratic party became in the 1990s. back then, larry summers was a leading figure in the clinton administration. went to the treasury department in 1995 as the top deputy to robert rubin, the same robert rubin who previously had been the co-chairman of goldman sachs and whose partnership with bill clinton in the 1990s marked the birth of a new cozy relationship between the national democratic party and wall street. the party, it meant access to huge previously unavailable stores of campaign cash. for wall street it meant friendly regulatory policies from a party that hadn't been much of a friend before. when rubin stepped down it was treasure secretary larry summers that glass stegele repealed in 1999. it was no secret that barack obama wanted to make summers the next chairman of the federal reserve and that should have been easy. but not after the 2008 economic meltdown. one by one, democratic senators stood up to say no and on monday, summers raised the white flag and said he was withdrawing

his name from consideration. then there is the the other government men we showed you at beginning, bill daly. in the 1990s, the point man for passing nafta. then later as he served as secretary of commerce. after clinton left office, he was made midwest chairman of jpmorgan chase. then obama asked him to become the white house chief of staff. >> the gentleman who spent the last seven years with jpmorgan chase on wall street -- >> he brings real vast business background. >> a man who has extensive banking and business experience. >> he knows the business community. they know him. >> democrats who were upset couldn't stop him back then, but now they can. and they just did. daly has been back home in illinois, running for governor against the incumbent, pat quinn, in next year's democratic primary. quinn's numbers were and are still poisonous. but still were daly's ties to the banking world. activists rose up to stop him, to send a message about the type of democratic party he represented. quinn seized on the opening, making it a fight between wall

street and main street. i fight hard for folks who don't have lobbyists, don't have political action committees who aren't in high places, quinn said. i'm quite a bit different from bill daly, he has a better tailor than i do. this week, bill daly dropped out of the race this is not the kind of race a candidate like daly would have lost in the 1990s, but in post meltdown america, he didn't have a prayer. to talk about what happened to bill daly and larry summers, we're joined by msnbc.com reporter rin carmoan. she joins everybody else who is still here. we have somebody from illinois. you can maybe tell us more from an illinois standpoint about exactly what happened with bill daly. you're a republican. you have a biased take on this but -- >> i imagine you're happy as a republican, you would rather run against quinn next year than daly. were you surprised by what happened in the democrat iic

party? >> i do take a little bit of issue with your introduction. bill daly was a highly successful and has been a highly successful political operative for years. he ran his brother's campaign for state's attorney when he wasn't supposed to win. he went to the white house and worked on nafta. he won the 2000 campaign if you listen to some of the democrats. i think with bill daly and i know him a little bit and i he's well regarded in illinois, a nice guy, it is a big state campaign, i'm not sure he got comfortable with it, i'm not sure if governor quinn's statements about his ties to the financial community pushed him out. it is a hard state to win, particularly against an incumbent, and i think that's more -- i take him at face value, he got out of that because he didn't want to spend the next five years inheriting a state which because of the democratic control of the state is just in an absolute fiscal mess versus this idea he was pushed down because of his ties to the financial community. >> whatever the exact reasons were he got out, clear lit banking stuff was being used

against him by people who didn't want to see him win that nomination, amanda, and clearly ties to the wall street regulatory record of larry summers from the clinton years and sort of where the democratic party is right now on wall street were central to the resistance to larry summers we saw. >> right. with bill daly, you didn't see the progressive community nationally get behind him and get excited. you didn't see pccc come in and endorse him. there is certainly right now, you know, i feel look a few years ago it was people like obama, who said that they opposed the iraq war, they weren't going to pursue that sort of neocon foreign policy. those people in the democratic party were sort of popular, that's what people are focused on. much more now it is the economy. it is looking for a more progressive, more populist economy. it is people who are concerned they haven't done well and that safety net isn't there. and people like bill daly, larry summers, are sort of not in vogue with the party now. they're much more of a clinton -- now the obama

administration, i think for fist time with gene sperling stepping down, tim geithner no longer there and larry summers not there, you don't have the clintons -- the clintonites sort of running the obama economic policy. >> and were you surprised at all by the outcome of the fight over larry summers here? he was never really normally nominated, but clearly he was going to have trouble getting confirmed. the president wanted to nominate him. were you surprised it played out this way? >> i had experience being an undergraduate under larry summers. i started with him. he lasted a year after i graduated. i think what you -- the prevailing feeling is larry summers, as believed by the president, is a brilliant man and we should listen to this brilliant man as if there isn't a sort of series of normative judgments that comes along with it. i think when you think about the clinton era prosperity, that is what helped justify a democratic alliance with wall street. while things were going well, while you could make the argument that what's good for wall street is good for america, then you could believe that this was going to be good for everyone and wasn't going to threaten the other coalitions in

the democratic party. larry summers may be in some ways a sacrificial lamb, but not unjustified. he represents this sort of ark that says in fact we didn't have prosperity for everyone under the regime prescribed by people like him. >> you know, a couple of broader points to make here, steve. there are a lot of changes going on within the democratic party. some of this is a second term president's usual phenomenon. but base turns against the president. they think it is their turn to get everything they want. and a lot of this is disgruntlement over guantanamo, over -- for labor now, the health care law. they haven't gotten their priorities. it is the nsa, it is drones. >> disgruntlement over wall street too, wall street reform. >> i real backlash over wall street that goes back to the beginning of the administration. another part of it is peter byner pointed out in his really terrific piece on the new, new left, you're seeing a generational change, a millennial generation that is now conditioned by the kind of populous anti-wall street views and then a third component,

which is that the conservative or moderate wing of the democratic party, the blue dog democrats, have been hollowed out themselves in this larger process. they have been the targets in campaigns by republicans, there are fewer of them, so you're seeing a democratic party move to some degree to the left. i have to tell you, it is a democratic party that is moving if we use the football field analogy from the 40 yard line to the 30 yard line. and the republican party is behind their own goal post. >> we're going to pick up that point, on the democratic party, that idea of a generational change now taking place in the democratic party and what happened with summers and with daly and bill de blasio in new york and others being symptoms of that. we'll pick that up in the next hour. thanks to former illinois republican party chairman pat brady. we'll dismiss you, but thank you for coming today. we'll pick it up right after this.

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'90s were a great time to be a president of president clinton. if you were a friend of bill, if you were one of them, life was good and life was still good the past two when another president with a b name entered the white house in 2009, at least until this week. more recently the democrat named bill you really want to be friends with is new york city mayoral candidate bill de bla o blasio. he catapults himself to the democratic nomination for mayor. that wins you democratic primary these days. be the guys who are actually doing the cozying up an the base will tell you it is time to go hit the golf course. provocative new piece called the rise of the new left, the daily beast peter byner argues this is no accident. it is the direct result of an entire generation of young people coming of age politically in the period of prolonged

economic anxiety. if you graduated from high school after the year 2000, you saw wages tumble 13%. and carrying three times more student debt than your parents did. americans under 30 are the only group to describe themselves as have-nots. that's just the warmup. here is the statistical bombshell. millennials say they favor socialism. maybe by a narrow margin, but socialism does win. which means this might not just be some fleeting liberal rebellion this younger generation will grow out of, could very well be the political allegiance of young voters are making now will hold and they will keep having a profound impact on american politics for years to come. here to discuss all of this, we have and i've been looking forward to this all week, legendary singer, songwriter and activist carol king, a very busy year, president obama presented her with a library of congress gershwin prize for probleml lpo. it was just announced at next year's ceremony, grammy

organizers will honor her as huge cares person of the year. also still here at the table, amanda terkel from-i huffington post, norm ornstein and rin carm carm carmone, former colleague from salon. got to get the salon plug in there too. >> you started to talk about this piece that caused a lot of conversation this past week, basically putting the idea out there that the democratic party is being changed, and as a result american politics are being changed because millennials whose experiences have been watching this country get bogged down in the two intractable wars, their own experiences with debt, sort of the unemployment problem, the great recession that this is sort of moving the democratic party, moving millennials to the left, radicalizing them in a way. what do you make of the premise that peter byner put up there this week.

>> it is increasing what is separating members of the democratic party. are you more of a clintonite figure or more in the mold of elizabeth warren and sherrod brown. the democratic party is becoming much more unified on issues like reproductive rights, gay rights so what is now distinguishing the candidates in the primaries is often the economic issues and as you have these younger people, who are dealing with student loans, who can't get a job, they're looking at sort of this model from the clinton era and saying, you know, wall street just hasn't done it for me. >> and do you see -- from a millennial standpoint, what do you make of it? >> i would say, actually, the economic issues and the social issues are intertwined. a lot of unfinished business of racial justice and gender justice intersect with economic issues, care giving, paid family leave, whether it is the fact we have no affordable day care in this country, the fact that the pay gap is more stark when it comes to people of color, especially women of color, and i think all of it -- and snap

benefits being voted on this year. i think those are crucial -- those are issues people show up and vote for democrats for, right? of course, with the republican party, all of these examples that byner use ready examples where there was not a crazy right wing republican opposite so you could move to the left. there was no danger of a tea party right wing sort of opposition there. and yet, you know, i think where there is room to have a discussion about this, you can say, you know, these quote/unquote social issues are also economic issues, it is what happened in de blasio versus quinn, with quinn denying sick leave, a bill of rights leave being vetoed, i think people are seeing the limits of this sort of mold that democrats proposed in the '90s and 2000s, i'm socially liberal and fiscally conservative. >> the interesting thing, norm, i'm thinking about all of this is in a lot of ways what we're talking about here is younger generation looking back at that

clinton years, the consensus in the democratic party and saying we don't -- we reject that, we want something completely different. at the same time, the clintons have never been more popular than the democratic party. >> i still think that's going to continue and hillary clinton becomes a prumtic nominee and a prumtic president. one thing most interesting here, though, steve is that there is an opening for somebody who is a little more libertarian. while you get a narrow plural y pluralities, there is an antipathy of government there in many ways and on foreign policy we're seeing left and right come together -- >> and on criminal justice. >> on criminal justice, a rejection of the old consensus. so there may be an opening for something a little bit different. the problem that republicans are going to have in that front and rand paul among them, they're not rejecting the social conservatism that is anathema to that generation, not only to them, but a whole lot of others and they aren't reaching out more broadly. the democratic party will go through some significant upheaval here and my guess is

hillary clinton, if she runs, and i'm assuming she will, may have to adjust to recognize this reality. >> so, carol what do you make of -- you've been active in democratic politics for years. and what do you make of the party, watching the party, first of all, go from -- you had the 1980s, carter defeated and mondale and dukakis and the party moves to the middle under bill clinton, the democratic leadership counsel and all that in the 1990s, do you see another pivot point here, do you expect what he's saying? >> i actually do. first of all, there is another sort of -- people talk about the millennials and the latinos and the african-americans and the women, but there is another group of people that i think is going to be represented more, not necessarily calling themselves democrats, but maybe voting for democrats and that is people who identify as republicans who are starting to realize that the framing that they're getting, hey, we're on

your side, is actually not happening. when you cut funding for food stamp and cut funding for head start, you're not helping these people. these are people like my neighbors in idaho, many would never vote for a democrat, but they start to think about it, it is, like, wait a minute, the republicans are cutting our funding for things we need and that's a group i think we're going to get. >> it is interesting. i grew up in massachusetts and we think of massachusetts as the capital of blue states. there was a strong tradition in massachusetts at one point and it has been -- it sort of disappeared as the two parties einvolved a evolved. hearing all this, looking at it from the democrats in washington, you know, in congress and the house and in the senate, do you see them changing right now, evolving, modulating in response to sort of the messages being sent in some of these elections and some moments? >> i think you saw it in the 2012 elections too. people who are supposed to be in

danger, like sherrod brown, was running up against a flawed candidate in josh mandel. but at the same time, he ran as a very, very progressive candidate. he did not move to the middle at all. and he came out very strong. and you had elizabeth warren, i know it is massachusetts which is very blue, but incredibly popular. i think that if she decided to run against hillary, that would make it a very, very interesting race. i know a lot of people who are big hillary fans but they like what probably said they would probably vote for elizabeth warren even more. so you saw this in the 2012 elections. you saw now this block of people like sherrod brown, elizabeth warren, jeff merkley becoming stronger in the senate. you haven't seen those strong progressive senators leading the discussion. >> veteran congress watcher here. what do you make of seeing what amanda is describing? >> one thing to keep in mind, this is populism. sherrod brown, who is a brilliant guy and knows how to communicate that message and

elizabeth warren as well, you look at other issues, elizabeth warren is not a crazy leftist. she's prag mmatipragmatic, she' a lot of issues. one of the other things happening though, steve, is i think moderate democrats or democrats who wanted to compromise, and have been through now a few years of seeing the scorched earth approach of the other side, what ted cruz and his colleagues are doing is pushing democrats further to the left. it is why should we even offer moderate principles or policies or alternatives when these guys are going to vote against everything no matter what we do. >> and they'll call obama socialist. >> if you get a movement that is so far in one direction, it almost inevitably breeds a counterreaction. that's a challenge for obama now too. what may help him, and the same thing happened to clinton, would have been a reaction against

him, except the impeachment process, the craziness of going after him united democrats behind him. if some of these crazies on the right actually prevail more, and create more turmoil, it may give obama more traction than he now has with rebellious left. >> i think there is -- what people thought they were getting, you know, in obama was this sort of change, this diversity, this idea that it was the anti-clintons and i think a lost people projected on to that thing he's wasn't necessarily, that he is a fundamentally and politically moderate person and yet as you say, if he is already going to be targeted as a socialist, this joke on the left, if only obama were who they say he is, so i do think there is a feeling among democrats in congress and among activists and the base and

saying, if even compromising, say, for example, chain cpi, if compromising on what used to be the core principles of the democratic party is just dragging everybody to the right, what is the point? they're also providing strategic missed plank where obama can be in the middle as opposed to everything being dragged to the right. >> one thing that struck me to pick up on what irin says, for the heatedness of the primary, i do think, you know, for better or worse, you could say the obama presidency has been the logical extension of the clinton presidency, from a democratic standpoint. do you see it that way? >> i don't see it that way. it may have started from that direction, but, you know, to your point, if he, you know, giving up chain cpi and everything, i think he's a -- what he is is a thoughtful person and he thinks things through. and if things change, he goes along with the change and takes

it in in a very intellectual and thoughtful way. and i think he put that out there as an attempt to come to some agreement. now having seen that there is no rationality in the majority of the republican party, he is sticking to the things that make sense to more people on the left. and i think he had to try that. >> we will pick it up. we have still a,of years left the obama presidency and the question of what is next for the democratic presidency. [ sneezes, coughs ]

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we know big government does not have all the answers. we know there is not a program for every problem.

we know and we have worked to give the american people a smaller, less bureaucratic government in washington. and we have to give the american people one that lives within its means. the era of big government is over. >> so that might have been the most famous, most definitive quote of bill clinton's two terms of president. the start of 1996, the year he had gone through the shellacking of 1994, the republican revolution, he came back, won the re-election over bob dole, i wonder to take a minute here, since we're talking about what democratic parties is going through right now is a reaction to clintonism in a lot of ways, can we put clintonism and what happened in the 1990s in some historical context. how did the democratic party reach that that moment? >> you can make a case that you had a democratic party that had

gone off to the left in the '60s and '70s. it took losing three presidential elections in a row with reagan and george herbert walker bush to give it a jolt. you lose once or twice, you can say it is our candidates or circumstances. three times you got to say you're out of sync with the country as a hole. bill clinton emerges and as a president, brought the democratic party to the center and there was great success. and now, of course, one of the questions is will the republicans lose three times in a row and will that jolt them back. but almost inevitably, once you have some success, you win a few elections in a row, and you get a different backlash against that movement to the center. and we're starting to see that a little bit now. i don't want to push it too far, steve. if it is not hillary clinton, you're going to have some other candidates out there. maybe one of them, andrew cuomo. andrew cuomo is not somebody who has moved to the left. he's been much more of a centrist. you're not going to see jerry

brown as a presidential candidate -- >> are you sure about that? >> he's got an enormous amount of energy, but, you know, jerry brown has moved the california democratic party to the center. now, on the other hand, my former student martin o'malley is somebody who is taking that position much more on the left, and is getting a lot of traction there. you're going to see it struggle, i think, an ideological struggle of sorts. it is something that operates with a wider band and more opportunities to still capture the center than you'll find in the other side. >> can i jump in with something. first of all, nobody mentioned joe biden. if joe biden is running, you have a race potentially between hillary clinton and joe biden. and joe would probably run to the left of hillary. >> he was out in iowa last week, at tom harkin's event in iowa, the steak fry they have. and biden made a point of talking about gay marriage. you remember how obama position

change came a week after obama went on "meet the press" and knows for sure, was it accident, or intentional, but said i could not stand by any more and stay silent on this issue and people around me were saying not to and i stepped in anyway. it was -- i remember at the time thinking this was an indication of where the democratic party was going, that was on joe biden's mind. interest to see him now using that. >> and the administration often uses him when they need to reach out to progressives. i remember they had to give a speech to i think -- it was sort of a conference call with the labor community. they used joe biden because he does very well with them. he's really -- so the base loves him. he's really fun. yes, he got a lot of -- he spoke out on marriage equality, which i think everyone sort of knew where he was, but the fact he did it and pushed obama, i think that's earned him a lot of sort of credibility with the progressive base. so i think -- and at the same time, biden has a lot of experience with congress.

and often stepped in to sort of help the administration reach out to congress, which is sort of seen as a deficiency of the president. i think that he would be running as much more progressive. i don't know if you see him go as far left as some of the other people out there, but he wouldn't run to the left and i think the base does like him. >> we keep talking about the sort of generationally, like it is the millennials moved by the appeals against wall street. but somebody pointed out, it is true if you look at new york city, bill de blasio winning this primary overwhelmingly in new york city as an example of the rise of the new left, de blasio did just as well, maybe better among elderly voters, among older voters. this wasn't just millennials -- >> i think part of it is it is not just generational, it is circumstances change on the ground. on the one hand, it is instructive to look back at the past, but i don't actually think marriage equality is such a salient issue. we have moved a lot of -- a long way due to the dogged work of activists, but i think it doesn't cost anything. a lot of the things that are really fault lines are things

that involve redistribution, they involve economic justice and those are a much higher uphill climb. in new york city there is a feeling there is so much money to go around and it is only going to a very small demographic, who would have thought they would have seen a re-evaluation of criminal justice after all of the years of the '70s and '80s in new york city and beyond of the crime wave. now here we have bill de blasio questioning tstop and frisk. circumstances change. people can imagine a world in which, first of all, it is not a total economically depressed, you don't have to beg wall street to come in you have to regulate wall street and it feels safe for some people and unsafe for others. >> there is an interesting twist here, on foreign policy. because joe biden and hillary clinton would both have to run with obama's foreign policy, maybe get a little bit of distance, but it is going to be an aggressive internationalist foreign policy. and you're seeing the significant backlash there. and one question is if there are

other candidates, whether it is in elizabeth warren or kirsten gillibrand or martin o'malley, will they move much more toward a dovish posture. there is a real division in the party now on those issues and i don't think that's going away. after syria, we see more things that may exacerbate those divisions. >> i don't -- part of the discussion too is we're talking about, the sort of -- within the party, maybe revolt is too strong of a word, but we can lose sight of the fact that if we look at the approval rating, it is as healthy as it could be for any president in the party. we're not talking about jimmy carter losing the party. there is not a huge move away from obama. >> progressives don't hate obama. they just would like him to be a little bit better. i think that's the role of activists, which he's said, you need to keep pushing me so you can take the left flank and i can perhaps find some compromise and move to the middle a little

bit so i'm not pushed all the way to this very far center right position. but, you know, president obama, when he ran against hillary, he took that more dovish foreign policy position, actually, and so, you know, if a candidate sort of runs away from that, which would be even more interesting, and i think it is that foreign policy move even farther away from where obama ran in 2008, being against the iraq war, is it enough, but at the same time, if hillary runs, the fact of her iraq war vote, it won't play quite as heavily as it sort of did in 2008. and i think she'll benefit a bit the fact she is the secretary of state during all this serious stuff. >> it will be 14 years in 2016 since she cast that vote? want to thank norm ornstein, irin carmon and amanda terkel. the emmies are tonight. there is a show about politics up for an award. i don't want it to win any. i'll tell you why next. (vo) you are a business pro.

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if i could describe being a nonsmoker, i would say "awesome." [ male announcer ] ask your doctor if chantix is right for you. i like to think i'm a level headed person, i like to think that at least. but sometimes i can't help myself. >> it tells at one point that the balance in the house is 218 democrats and 216 republicans. so it is pretty narrow. and you literally murders one of his own democratic members. what kind of a whip would do that? >> that is going crazy, losing my cool, talking about a tv show, house of cards, up for nine emmys tonight. i go crazy thinking about it. i'm going to try to explain it. that's after this. [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman,

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anymore. the same for had you hate something. like a television show. if you don't like it, then don't watch it anymore. but it turns out a lot of us have a big problem following that simple piece of advice. even given rise to the phenomenon of hate watching. people who actually get enjoyment out of hating what they're kau they're watching and sharing that with others. a blog about the hate watching, they live tweet their hate watching, all of it. a lot of people i know in the news business love to point out all of the flaws and inaccuraties in the show "the newsroom." when it comes to political television, i teased it earlier, i have my own hate watching passion. it is house of cards. do i like the netflix series up for nine emmy wards tonight? no. i hated it. but that did not stop me from binge watching all 13 episodes of it. when house of cards premiered, i couldn't wait to watch it. i love politics.

but with each episode, my disappointment grew. some were in the middle of the season, that letdown turned into pure unadult rated animosity. by the end, i wasn't sure if i kept watching out of some vague ill defined hope it would somehow get better or if i wanted it to be bad so i could tell everyone i know how bad i thought it was. all i know is they're apparently making a second season and i have a feeling i'm going to be watching that too. granted, i am proudly holding the show to too high of a standard. i'm sure i exaggerate the show's crimes against political reality. i'm also sure it works the other way. never takes more than a few seconds on twitter to realize there are plenty of people who hate watching me. which is only fair. if i'm going to dish it out, i better be able to take it. please don't think i hate every show and every movie about politics. there are some good ones. for instance, i loved the british version of "house of cards."

and saying you prefer the british very is the definition of pretension. here we are on any sunday, a political show up for a bunch of awards, a show on hbo about a political news show, another show on hbo about a vice president. let's talk about political television and talk about hate watching. maybe we'll try to redeem our souls a little too and talk about what we like. here to help us do that, we have singer, songwriter and fan of the show vip carole king. glynness mcnichol, she wrote the weekly recap for the newsroom. weren't exactly the most positive recaps of the show. and we have shauna thomas and jeff smith, a former missouri state senator. lawmaker who has written about what house of cards gets right and what it doesn't. so let's start with house of cards. i'll try to make my indictment against the show.

if you watched it, hopefully you can follow along with this. i don't particularly like the kevin spacey character. kevin spacey plays the house majority whip, the democratic whip in congress. and i don't like him because i think they miss a basic element of any politician. that is how does this guy get elected? who would ever like this guy? who would ever want to vote for this guy? he doesn't even fake the nice guy thing. doesn't even pretend to fake nice guy thing. just constantly walks around angry at the world, you know, contempt for everybody around him, doesn't even mask it. i don't buy that. but the thing i don't buy about the show, this is -- he's the house majority whip, charged with counting votes in the house of representatives. he has, we find out at one point he has 218 votes. like the bear minimum you can have. he takes one of his members, fellow democratic members and murders him. what the heck kind of a whip would do that? >> may have been a safe district. >> they win it in the special election. >> there will be three or four months, we need that vote.

>> that's right. >> don't you look at the current elected officials and think how did many of these people get elected? i don't think they present him as the -- you don't see him as the forward facing person he puts in the public, house of cards is the behind the scenes view of what is really going on. i think the country right now thinks what is going on because there doesn't seem to be a lot happening in d.c. so i think -- i find that more believable. >> that's true. on my list of 7,000 indictments of house of cards, that's number 5800. i probably shouldn't have led with it. >> there is something -- i do like the show. i think it has some issues. i have some real issues with how the female journalists are portrayed in the show. but there is something about a show that is based around the guy who is the house majority whip that is an inside d.c. person, which i will totally cop to, i am an inside d.c. person, i enjoy that idea. i enjoy the idea he has to find votes and count them and that that is part of actually what happens in congress. so that part i really like. i also like the relationship

between the two lead characters. kevin spacey and robin wright's character. there is something very real in the idea of two people together not just for convenience, there is some kind of love there, but some passion and need for success that they have made a deal with each other. you have some shades of clinton in there. and i am fascinated by that relationship. >> we have a clip from it here. let's play it -- this is one of the first things you see if you start watching the series, this is like the first minute or so of the first episode, kevin spacey and a wounded dog. let's play that. >> it's okay. there are two kinds of pain. the sort of pain that makes you strong. or useless pain. sort of pain that is only suffering. i have no patience for useless things. moments like this require someone who will act and do the

unpleasant thing, the necessary thing. >> so he murders a dog and we're off and running. welcome to house of cards, ladies and gentlemen. you have written about what do you make of this series? >> i do like it. so i think you're outnumbered on your own panel. >> i'm with steve. >> thank you. >> but to your point, shauna, about the counting of votes, there was another scene that really tested reality. it is 218-216 house and you've got the house majority whip and the bill sponsor having champagne while the votes going down. anybody who served as a legislator as an aide on capitol hill -- >> not even in the building when that happens. >> if you're a whip or the bill sponsor, you're on the floor. you're counting every no, somebody might be in the bathroom, somebody might be in traffic and you're trying to

make sure you have every single vote. that really tested my faith in the reality of the show. however, i think overall, they do a really good job, but the writer from st. louis, as i am, he does a good job of taking characters, writing them, doing terrible things and making them likable people and aaron sorkin on the newsroom does the opposite, he's trying to write characters doing good things and they're all terribly unlikable. >> let's get into that then. this is -- this is your hate watching passion. >> it is. >> why? >> it is my hate watching passion. i think as a television news producer, i was excited. i like aaron sorkin shows. i loved the west wing. still love the west wing. really excited about an inside the news kind of show. and then i get this where it appears he didn't ask anybody how making television news works. so i have that problem. i have issues with, like, the way they are in the control room, all the little things which are the nitpicky things i

talk about on twitter. but also, the women, i think are not written very well. i think the ep of the show, i think the ap in the show, that these are women who have if they acted the way they do on that show, if they were hysterical, crying, worried about their relationship, right before every episode is going to air, they wouldn't have those jobs in television news. it did not represent me at all and that really upset me. >> yeah. exponentially i agree with everything you said. i think just to bring it back to the opening of the house of cards, they set up a premise of drama and the suspension of disbelief as required to think kevin spacey is talking to the camera as he would address you. in the newsroom, right out of the barrel, aaron sorkin sets up the show to be a critique of the media as it happened and, by the way, here is everything you did wrong. and throughout the show, he gets everything incorrect. so he's telling the media that these are all the things you did wrong and i'm going to correct you, but i'm not going to do due

diligence on my end to figure out how it actually works. >> it is strange, wait the show is set up, it is events from two years ago, he gets the benefit of hindsight to tell you this is how it should be but doesn't look forward and say this is how it should be. >> he hasn't bothered to figure out how it was. i'm not sure he spent any time on the internet to understand the internet's influence on the news cycle at all. it is astounding to me how many things he got incorrect or the influence of twitter or four square or little things and then going back to your point about the women characters were just so relentlessly insulting that by part way through the middle of the second season, i thought he was doing it in purpose. i think he's bored and trying to troll us. >> what do you hate to watch? do you hate watch anything? >> i don't. life is too short. no, life is too short. i couldn't really get through the house of cards. i tried to watch a few episodes,

i just couldn't get through them. i hate this. sorry. but the thing to be recognized is that it is entertainment. the primary purpose of these shows is to entertain. and at that, they're successful. people are watching them, whether they hate them or like them. what upsets me a little bit about it is yes, it is entertainment, but it has an influence on people. and if people think that's the way news media works or that's the way television -- politics works, that's a little bit of a problem. >> we'll pick this up on the other side. i'll explain my -- the number one problem i have with aaron sorkin, the west wing. a lot of disagreement on this set about the west wing. we'll get to that. and talk about what we like. ready to run your lines? okay, who helps you focus on your recovery? yo, yo, yo. aflac. wow. [ under his breath ] that was horrible. pays you cash when you're sick or hurt?

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said i could solve all my problems if i were just more like michael douglas in "the american president." and i know michael is here tonight. michael, what is your secret, man? could it be that you were an actor in an aaron sorkin liberal fantasy? >> i think that was my favorite line from the president's speech at the correspondents dinner earlier this year. it does get me to the sorkin thing drives me crazy. i'm not the biggest fan of "the west wing," of "the american president." my number one gripe about all the sorkin stuff is nothing to do with characters, the characters never say um. every single character is the most selfish, most self-possessed, every character for aaron sorkin just so self-assured, so self-confident, they all seem the same to me. the thing that obama's point there is interesting too, how

many people watch a show like -- watch a movie like the american president, a show like the west wing, a show like the newsroom and say this is the reality and the expectations for reality are distorted in a not helpful way by that? >> i think maybe a little in that, you know, it is the -- the west wing is a liberal fantasy world. you get to pretend like the president will always do the right thing. but what it did, i think was introduced a lot of people across the country, when, you know, when nbc kept the show on the air, to the idea of politics, in washington, and i think there is something to be said for that, even if it is a liberal fantasy and wasn't done exactly in the way it actually happens. >> i think too, it i was much different time period the show came out, talking about the clinton administration, lewinsky scandal and a lot of -- the country turning cynical and aaron sorkin rewrote this idea of what we hoped the president would be, what we hoped washington would be like. and i think it was a fantasy, but a fantasy in a way that made people -- reminded people what

we should be wanting out of our government, which i think is different than leading people to believe this is how the government worked. >> it made people think of higher aspirations and house of cards is an example of something i think does the opposite. you mentioned vip, what i love about vip, there is no way you're going to think that's real. no one is going to think that's real. it is purely entertainment, it is like in the curb mode, no one is that much of a you know what. but that's what -- >> it captures the indignity of the vice presidency or anybody with the job with the same -- >> and the extreme oz to which somebody could take being shallow and callous and self-centered but in a way where, you know, you almost believe this -- these people in the house of cards, but, you know, you don't. and the other thing i just want to say about the whole concept of lifting, i want to come back

to that, because in my work, look, everybody knows, oh, yeah, carole king, polly ana, everything is great, well, i try, i try to get things there in my own music, in my own world. i wish they could do that with the conviction of authenticity. millennials as we discussed before, millennials are cynical. i think they're also yearning for somebody really authentically wanting to lift us. i think in a way, obama was that guy in 2008. and now he's was that guy in 2008. i think he's the guy who still wants that and he's constantly going like this, fending off attacks and fending off just utter stupidity and -- >> so there's that yearning, but then we get frank underwood, kevin spacey's character in "house of cards." >> still a couple points about president obama's speech, first of all. as somebody who supported him and went to iowa five times to knock on doors for him, before

the caucus. if anybody raised expectations on barack obama, it was barack obama. so it's hard for him to blame someone else for that. now, to your point, carole, about the cynicism that shows like this breed, when we see the clash between our idealism and what a frank underwood looks like, i think we have to also think about what's going on in washington today. people are lamenting the polarization, you know, you have these far-right guys and nobody can get along with them. and, you know, "house of cards" portrays a world totally different than that. "house of cards" portrays a world where people don't care about ideology at all and are just playing a game. you can say it's a show we should be cynical about, but maybe we should be happy. and i'm not condoning the tea party's tactics, but these are people who strongly believe in a lot of the things they're doing. so the picture a lot of people are disappointed in in washington today are very different than the cynicism that pervades "house of cards." >> i also think it's important

to remember the internet has introduced a level of transparency into the workings of every industry that doesn't allow for a lot of fantasy or idealism. that we get to see the nitty-gritty. politicians, celebrities, whoever, that doesn't allow us to sort of put them on such a pedestal and believe that they're capable of only good and no evil. and i think what we're seeing is that filter down into our television on every level. and it would be very hard, i think, for -- i love "the west wing" and i've gone back and watched it to make sure it's still a good show, but i think it would be very heart for "the west wing" to succeed as a show today. i think if it arrived today, your head would explode five minutes in. >> i felt that as a washington realtime. i might go rewatch "the west wing" for a different reason, but i'll stop saying stuff about it. what we know for the week ahead that we didn't know today.

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so it's time to think out what our guests know for the week ahead. >> since we were talking about television and emmys, carrie washington is nominated for an emmy tonight as best lead actress in a drama series. a black woman has never woman in the 65 years of prime-time emmys, never won. only nine nominations, only five women have been nominated, and it will be interesting to see if she makes history. and i don't think it's about the awards itself, it's about the entertainment business. i don't think there are enough roles for black women. she's a fellow g.w. alum. >> i'll cheer for her. jeff? >> this coming weekend, the conservative political action conference as their annual conference in st. louis, and one of the sponsors is right on crime. that's the sort of libertarian leading group, and rand paul has

been a leader in the movement from the right, making what sounds an awful lot like a progressive critique against mandatory minimums in this country. ari melber, your replacement on "the cyclist," talked elegantly about it. something to watch in the weeks and months ahead. >> carole? >> in nine days on october 1st, anybody who doesn't have health insurance can go to healthcare.gov and sign up and get affordable, quality care. you should do it. for you and your family. >> the exchanges are opening. and gwyneth? >> there was a really interesting piece that ran the other day, "grand theft auto v" was released, and there was an interesting piece about video games of this detail being the new novel and what that means about storytelling. there's a lot of interesting things about how we portray

women in storytelling and the creative nature going forward in this new platform. >> i want to thank shauna thomas, jeff smith, carole king, and glenys mcnickle of the list. up next weekend, our guests will include scott burg, and up next is melissa harris-perry and we'll see you next week here on "up." i'll have more awkward conversations than i'm equipped for, because i'm raising two girls on my own. i'll worry about the economy more than a few times before they're grown. but it's for them, so i've found a way. who matters most to you says the most about you. at massmutual we're owned by our policyowners, and they matter most to us. ready to plan for your future? we'll help you get there.

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this morning, my question. why are our chickens crossing the ocean? plus, why this week was such a good week for the 1 percenters. first, scores dead, hundreds injured, and a terrifying situation still unfolding in nairobi, kenya.