canned soup. [ laughter ] [ male announcer ] so good, they'll think it's homemade. try campbell's homestyle soup. m'm! m'm! good. carnage in kenya, and it is still not over. new and frightening details this hour from those who managed to escape that mall under attack. there are heartbreaking images and big questions today. how much does this suggest a growing al qaeda threat, or does it? on the brink. the president pushes back against the gop on a government shutdown and obama care. we're going to tell you what he said and get reaction. and it's the coolest city in the country. so where is it? one hint. it has the worst baseball team around, but it's still cool. hello, everyone. high noon in the east. 9:00 a.m. out west.

welcome to "weekends with alex witt." a mounting death toll from that hostage standoff ate mall in kenya, it is still ongoing right now. here's what we know. new gunfire was heard from the upscale mall today hours after the initial attack yesterday. and within this past hour there's been a report of low-flying helicopters swarming around that building. soldiers are hiding in trenches. we do know at least 59 people are dead. 179 wounded after this attack by islamic extremists saturday afternoon local time. four american citizens are reported to be among those injured. shoppers were running for their lives as the gunfire erupted and grenades were thrown. hostages remain inside that mall. it is not known how many at this time. the mall, though, is still surrounded by kenyan security forces. somalia's radical group al shabab is claiming responsibility for the assault in which non-muslims were specifically targeted. the kenyan president spoke just a short time ago. >> there are between 10 to 15

armed terrorists inside the building as well as many unarmed, badly shaken innocent civilians. we have reports of women as well as male attackers. we cannot confirm details on this. our security analysts are looking at that. >> join meg now on the phone from nairobi is nbc's ron allen. ron, i know within this past hour there's been a lot of activity. can you bring us up to date? >> reporter: it's nightfall here now, and the helicopters stopped flying when it got too dark. they were flying very, very low, just above maybe the six or seven-story mark. the mall is about four stories tall, with a parking garage on top. from where we're positioned, several hundred yards from the mall, it appeared that they were flying by. the noise you hear in the background is a fire and rescue truck that's going by our

position right here. military vehicles coming in and out. ambulances coming in and out on this road that leads down to the mall. again, 200 yards or so from us. the security forces have created a perimeter, a safety perimeter around the area. they've evacuated the neighborhood. people aren't allowed to go nearby because it's still a very volatile situation. we've heard a couple of explosions. that's what signalled that something was going on here this evening, a couple of hours ago. there was a very loud explosion. and there appeared to be smoke rising over the mall. there was speculation by some of the security people that we've been talking to that they might have gone in with some kind of a stun grenade or some kind of a device to disable the gunmen who are still believed to be holding as many as 30 or more hostages. and we believe, or we've been told, that once that operation is confined to a certain area of

the mall there are reports the grocery store, which is the largest store in that mall, but again, we're just trying to piece together bits and pieces of information we've been getting from various government sources and security sources of our own. it's a very fluid situation. but the feeling here this evening and the last couple of hours was that the government might be trying to end this. there was an enormous amount of helicopter activity, military helicopters, police helicopters. we also saw a number of heavily armed troops taking up positions in a trench opposite the mall. and we've seen some, in the last hour or so, emerging from that area. it's not very tense where we are right now, but it's tense throughout the area. and you heard the president speak a little while ago. there have been a series of government officials talking all day, and everybody here is trying to get a sense of how patient the government is going to be with these armed gunmen, who clearly have shown very little regard for human life.

again, there are believed to be as many as 30 hostages, perhaps some children, because there was a disproportionate number of children in the mall when this happened because there was an event involving children. again, this started about noon. there was a matinee movie going on. there was a children's entertainment event happening. families, saturday afternoon in nairobi. this is what people do, what families do to get out and about. but again, right now a lot of the activity has died down with nightfall, and we're hoping we get a briefing to know more about what the military and police have been up to. but again, it appears that they were trying to bring this to something p a conclusion. >> and when you say that, ron, does that mean that they are trying to negotiate or that they are just going to literally eradicate, take these guys out? because as you know, al shabab has sent out communiques that they will not surrender. >> reporter: and they've also

said they will not negotiate. they said that basically the kenyan government needs to pull its troops out of somalia, they've been there for a couple of years. and the kenyan government does not need any public statement that they're going to negotiate. no government in this day and age would i think publicly make that signal. it would be seen as a very -- a strong sign of weakness. and again, you have hostages. you have innocent women and children and men who are -- we believe they're in the custody of these gunmen. so they have to be very careful about how they approach the situation because again, the death toll rose today. it's 59. the number of wounded and injured is 175. there is a real feeling that those numbers are going to rise even higher because, again, the situation doesn't seem to be ending. >> and there are horrible images, and parents describing flinging their bodies over their children to protect them. as you said, there was that children's event going on. it couldn't be much worse.

nbc's ron allen, thank you very much for the update. as we mentioned, al shabab has made some communiques. it has a press office. that's sent messages on twitter. here's a quote. "2k3w0d gave us patience and solidified our stand and gave us victory over the infidels." the group also tweeted "a 14-hour standoff relayed in 1400 rounds of bullets and 140 characters of vengeance and still ongoing. good morning, kenya." wow. joining me now, evan coleman, an nbc terror analyst. evan, with a good day to you. let's talk about al shabab. it has targeted uganda, we know, now kenya. how closely are u.s. officials watching what's happening in kenya right now? >> they're watching it very closely. number one, there are u.s. interests in the region. let's not forget that a u.s. embassy was targeted in kenya in 1998 with disastrous consequences by al qaeda, not to mention the fact that shabab itself, shabab al mujahadin in somalia, its primary adversaries are kenya, uganda, burundi, and

the united states, and of those four countries at least two of them now have been targeted by overseas attacks by al shabab. and the concern is that this is a group that has managed to successfully recruit a surprising number of u.s. nationals, particularly in places like minneapolis, san diego, seattle, washington. these are not places that are traditional hubs for al qaeda recruitment, per se. but shabab has found inroads into these communities because of the fact there are somali communities in these areas. >> yeah. and you make that point about somalia. i just want people to understand why at least shabab argues they're making these horrible terroristic activities. it's because kenya for the last couple of years has sent troops inside. is that what's happened, to try to calm things down there? >> that's the immediate cause. i think the larger cause is kenya, uganda, burundi, and the united states are shabab's primary adversaries, and even before kenya really invaded somalia kenya was already involved in trying to combat shabab and was already trying to

fight shabab. so that might be the proximate cause but there was already a beef between these two forces. and shabab has been promising to do something like this for two years now. in october of 2011 they issued a statement warning the kenyan public that they would carry out attacks inside of kenya. and the language that they used in that statement is almost identical to the language they've used on twitter today about this attack. so unfortunately, the concern is that there is a possibility of further attacks either in kenya or in other areas that shabab continues to be their adversaries. >> can a terror group attempt a similar attack here? i mean, in other words, how concerned should we be? >> i think the concern here is number one, obviously, look, we don't know what shabab is doing. maybe shabab is planning something else. but more broadly, if you look at what happened here, this didn't require an explosives expert to carry out. this didn't require an al qaeda commander to conceive of this plot. it's a relatively simple plot, and it's very similar to what we saw happen in mumbai a few years ago. and much like mumbai the

question is is someone capable of doing this or is a group of people capable of doing this even without the support of a terrorist organization? simply on their own. and that's one of the big concerns of u.s. officials right now, is is somebody going to look at this and try carrying out a copycat operation? because of the fact that it's relatively simple, unsophisticated, and as you've seen it is quite successful, or at least had quite an impact. >> you know, evan, very quickly, because i know this is what you do, your line of work, you constantly monitor all sorts of websites for this kind of chatter something's going to happen. did you pick up on this? >> look, they're talking about this stuff all the time. but i mean, they've been talking about it for two years now. i think one of the questions we all have is why now? why particularly did they choose now? and i think the jury is still out on that verdict. we don't know why it took them two years to follow through with this threat that they issued so long ago. >> evan kohlman, as always, can you so much. we'll talk with you again. so how vulnerable to terrorism are public places here in the

u.s.? i'll be speaking with a member of the house homeland security committee in just about five minutes. stick around for that. let's go to washington now. just eight days until a possible government shutdown, and new today, gop senator ted cruz defending house republicans for approving a government spending bill that defunds obama care despite senate majority leader harry reid saying any such bill would die. senator cruz today saying not so fast. >> senate republicans, it's now our turn to unify to stand together with house republicans. and then the next step, look, this may end up going back to the house. and i hope and fully believe the house will continue the fight. and if we take this to the american people, i believe the next step after that is starting to get red state democrats, starting to get -- if you're a mark pryor, if you're a mary lan drew running for re-election in arkansas and louisiana, then you start to get 5,000, 10,000, 20,000, 50,000 calls from your constituents, suddenly it changes the calculus entirely. >> well, house minority leader nancy pelosi shared her reaction today. >> there are lots of excuses

that they use. but for many of them i call them legislative arsonists. they're there to burn down what we should be building up in terms of investments in education and scientific research and all that it is that make our country great and competitive. i don't paint them all with the same brush and i don't paint the speaker with that brush, but there are enough of them in that caucus to shut down government. that would be a victory for them. >> president obama spoke last night at the congressional black caucus foundation's annual awards dinner and had some poirnlted words for republicans threatening to shut down the government over obama care. >> we have come too far, we've overcome far darker threats than those. we will not negotiate over whether or not america should keep its word and meet its obligations. >> nbc's kristen welker is at the white house for us. kristen of course has been following all the developments. so with a good sunday to you, my

friend. any progress this week over the effort to avert the shutdown? >> reporter: the last time president obama spoke with house speaker john boehner was on friday night when he placed that phone call to say he's not going to negotiate over the debt limit. so it seems as though both sides just digging in their heels. of course they dug them in more deeply on the sunday morning talk shows. and it all revolves around this issue of the president's health care law. it's an issue that's really dividing congressional republicans. it is politically perilous for them. this bill has virtually no chance of passing through the senate. and of course it's tough to see president obama signing off on a piece of ledge slau piece of legislation that would defund his own health care law. here's what he had to say last night at the congressional black caucus dinner. take a listen. >> some of them were actually willing to see the united states default on its obligations and plunge this country back into a painful recession. we're not going to allow anyone to inflict economic pain on

millions of our own people just to make an ideological point. and those folks are going to get get some health care in this country. we've been waiting 50 years for it. >> reporter: alex, even if congress figures out a way to sort through this current issue, keeps the government funded, there is another fiscal battle looming in mid october. the nation will reach its debt limit. republicans have said they won't increase the debt limit unless it is accompanied by scaling back funding for the president's health care law. and again, the president continues to insist he's not going to negotiate over the debt limit. so the standoff continues. >> don't you sometimes feel like there's an echo in here? anyway. talk to you later. thank you. >> reporter: all right, alex, thanks. the fight over food stamps. most republicans voted to cut $40 billion from the program. our next gop guest will tell us why he voted not to. but first, we're going to bring you some moirkts from the kenya mall attack. a red cross assistant there helping to comfort a crying child. a woman being led to safety by security personnel.

and this distraught woman outside a nairobi city morgue on the ground being helped by relatives after she identified the body of a victim in the attack. senseless and gut-wrenching. we'll be right back. ♪ ho ho ho [ female announcer ] at 100 calories, not all food choices add up. some are giant. some not so giant. when managing your weight, bigger is always better. ♪ ho ho ho ♪ green giant let's see what you got. rv -- covered. why would you pay for a hotel? i never do.

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eight days and counting to a possible government shutdown as congress and the white house trade ultimatums and insults. the president played offense last night, speaking to the congressional black caucus, president obama blamed republicans for pushing this country to the brink. he also took the opportunity to criticize the gop over the food stamp bill. >> house republicans voted to cut $40 billion in nutritional aid for struggling families. at the same time as some of the same folks who took that vote

are receiving subsidies themselves. >> joining me now, congressman patrick meehan, republican from pennsylvania as well as a member of the house homeland security committee. representative meehan, thank you for being here. and we're going to talk about the food stamp question in just a moment and the spending bill, but i want to get your sense of this incident in kenya we've been reporting. you're a member of the homeland security committee. how much do you know about it and can tell us? because we have reports of four american citizens injured. >> yes, well, i'm tracking it much like you are. the inside reports aren't much better at this point than we're getting. i do have some concerns about some americans, particularly what looks like a relative of somebody in the state department. so it is foreseeable with a number of those who have been injured and killed that there could be americans among them, particularly in a place like nieb oebi. >> how vulnerable do you feel this country is to that type of attack? is this something you hear about

in your national security briefings? >> well, we're always looking at the threats. to be honest, i think those coming from places like somalia, you know, with al shabab, it's probably less likely. more of their focus seems to be in africa. but that of course is an expansion of al qaeda's activities in those areas. we've been watching nigeria and boko huram for quite some time as well. but what there is a reality is there are relationships back to communities who have situated here in the united states, and sometimes there's worries about what, you know, you call the individual actor that may be inspired to carry out something here in the united states. >> absolutely. that lone terrorist, if you will, sir. let's go back and talk about the food stamps now because i know you were just one of 15 republicans who voted against cutting $40 billion in food stamps. 217 of your gop colleagues voted for it. so why, sir, did you break away from the party on this vote? and did you get pressure to toe

the party line? >> well, we all talk among ourselves about the reasons for it. and i have to say, there are some things about that, including the idea that we would look at able-bodied people perhaps with this dramatic expansion. i mean, more than 250% over the course of a decade. but i also looked in my own district. i think that it would have fallen disproportionately on some of the elderly, and particularly women with single children at this point in time, and in pennsylvania there is a little bit of an extender that is granted by the state in the way they implement it. i think moving back to that number would have put people right now, some who are unemployed and otherwise. it's a tough time, when we're dealing with this kind of unemployment. i think the safety net at a time like this was something that was probably appropriate to work on, but it didn't need to be as drastic as perhaps was put forward. >> but representative meehan, i mean, put aside that it may leave 4 million people without needed assistance in 2014. how do you assess the optics of this for the republican party?

>> well, the optics probably are tough. it makes it look as though you really don't understand. everything gets pushed back, though, into the context of, you know, continuing to spend dollars that we don't have. so the difficulty becomes how do you make the right choices where we are -- you know, where we are doing spending? and i also think that while this appeals to, you know, certain of the folks that are looking for the curtailment in spending we all know this is going to come back as part of some kind of a resolution in which the $4 billion number that was put forward by the senate earlier will be matched against the 40 billion in the house and somewhere in the middle will be some kind of a resolution on the food stamps. >> let's get to the potential government shutdown, sir. do you think there will be -- can it be avoided at this point? and if you think it can be, how will that happen? >> well, i think it's going to be avoided. i don't think anybody really

wants to have a shutdown. i do believe that there's a very genuine interest on the part of many on my side of the aisle. and in fact, i think most americans, to legitimately put at stake the issue of the affordable care act and whether it's the right time to implement it in its completeness right now. i am really quite honestly surprised at how many people, when i am out, are drastically concerned about the implementation of the act. people seeing their costs rise. people that are threatened in the nature of the work that they have. people that are already losing doctors. so the promises that were made are affecting a lot more people than i think people realize out there. and it's a misunderstanding to assume that the bill and the way it was started, and that's where i think a lot of people feel a sense of injustice in the way the bill was passed in the beginning in the house. we lose sight of that. so you hear on our side, this is

the last chance to prevent that. i think that's some of what is driving it. but in the end it's not going to be i think easy for the president to say i'm not going to talk about it at all. i do think somewhere there's going to be some discussions about the affordable care act because let's face, it it's already being implemented in a way in which it's kind of dissimilar in the way certain people are being treated. so the equities even, with businesses already being exempted and others not -- individuals not. >> speaking of inequities, we've heard from viewers. and if we go into shutdown mode here in terms of the government, congress still gets paid. but a lot of essential workers, members of the military, for example, they're going to get ious and get a delayed paycheck. i guess there's a question whether they'd get paid ultimately at all. your colleague from the other side of the aisle john yarmouth told me earlier he would support stopping congressional pay now too. would you go along with that? >> well, let's see what comes back in the first place. let me start by saying the idea

that all of the other bills have been funded in the thing that came over from the house. so there's no intention to stop the pay or support for every other area of the budget. it's more focused on the particular issue of the affordable care act or obama care, as you will. this is the stuff of negotiation. and it's not right for anybody to say certain things just can't be on the table, especially when there's something that significant, which is i think fair to say there are some things that need to be discussed. >> all right. congressman patrick meehan, we thank you very much for discussing them with us. appreciate it. >> thank you. the safest city in america. it's in today's number 1s. yo, yo, yo. aflac. wow. [ under his breath ] that was horrible. pays you cash when you're sick or hurt? [ japanese accent ] aflac. love it. [ under his breath ] hate it. helps you focus on getting back to normal? [ as a southern belle ] aflac. [ as a cowboy ] aflac. [ sassily ] aflac. uh huh.

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welcome back to "weekends with alex witt." now headlines at just past the half. police and military forces continue to surround a mall where islamic extremists are holding hostages captive. the death toll now stands at 59.

>> a few people who actually got injured. some died. >> so far 175 are wounded. police say 10 to 15 attackers replain inside that mall. officials are unsure of the exact number of hostages. a software error delaying the arrival of a brand new cargo ship at the international space station. the commercial capsule was making its orbital debut and packed with food and clothing for the crew when that problem was noticed. it will be another couple of days before another approach is attempted. and an unusual sight in chicago. the pilot of a small plane had to make an emergency landing right there on lakeshore drive near grant park this morning. the plane had a mechanical problem with its tail control. one person was slightly injured. let's go now to washington and to the brink of another government shutdown, october 1st being the date for that. and president obama last night at the the congressional black caucus dinner taking on republicans for tying the defunding of obama care to passing a spending bill.

>> it's an interesting thing to ponder. that your top agenda is making sure 20 million people don't have health insurance. and you'd be willing to shut down the government and potentially default for the first time in united states history. >> joining me now, washington bureau chief of the "chicago sun-times," lynn sweet, and msnbc political analyst jonathan alter, also author of "the center holds: obama and his enemies." looks like he's got a few of them out there i guess right now, right? anyway-w a hello to the both of you. lynn, i'll begin with you. i guess my first question is how did we get here again? at whom or what should we be pointing the finger of blame for this shutdown fight? >> well, i think the fight really is, and i may get a lot of e-mails on, this is on the republican side because they chose to insert their fight against obama care into keeping government open. they did not have to use this looming deadline, the end of the

fiscal year, september 30th. but they had -- this is an arrow in the quiver. and they're using it. and knowing full well it's going to fail in the senate and will result in the situation that we're at now. so i would think if you assign blame, if your goal is to stop obama care, right now the republicans don't have it. what they think this is, some of them, is a first step to delay obama care. but it's brinksmanship that i think a lot of people can live without. >> jonathan, do you agree? is it that simple? is it all surrounded by obama care? >> it's not simple, but you do have the republicans who are forming a circular firing squad at this point. they're really holding no cards. the president has the veto pen. they would need 21 democrats in the u.s. senate to defund or even delay obama care. so far they have zero. they are 21 votes away. and those 21 democrats are all steadfast in saying that they

will continue to support obama care. so republicans i don't think have served their constituents very well in this. their constituents have some particular technical problems with obama care. like any big piece of legislation, there are some small fix that's are needed. but they can't get to those fixes as long as their elected representatives are determined for ideological reasons, for reasons of radical politics, to try to stop this train from coming down the tracks. and -- >> what -- >> -- the law's been passed. it's a done deal. >> what's interesting, you say the republicans are not reflecting their constituents well. but look at these numbers and the whys behind it. and this question will be to you, lynn, because overall 52% of americans say they oppose the law. 42% favor it. that includes 54% of the independents, who are against it. so do you think, lynn, that republicans feel they do have license to attack obama care because of these polls? and if so, is this the biggest failure of the administration, by not having sold it properly

and explained it thoroughly? >> well, yes to your last question. there's a lot of selling. here's the thing i think republican lawmakers have to reckon with. no matter what they do, come october 1st it's not only the end of the fiscal year and the beginning of the new one for federal budgeting. it's the beginning of the next and biggest phase of obama care, with open enrollment for insurance companies. there's a lot of help people are going to need. what jonathan said, i want to emphasize his correctness on this. there's going to be bumps in the road. it's a massive program. but you don't throw it away instead of fixing it. instead of trying to shut down government now, i think lawmakers, no matter what their ideology, could help their constituents, some of whom could use obama care. you could have the ideological fight, try to change it, delay it, strip it. but a lot of people in the country could be well served by getting themselves into these

exchanges, having for the first time if they have a pre-existing condition or no employment and ability to get health insurance. now, for some people in every congressional district this is going to be good. so the republican lawmakers who just want to say no, no, no aren't necessarily putting themselves in the shoes of constituents who could use this insurance coverage even if you want to have a philosophy of not believing in it. >> you know, i just wanted to add, alex, that poll that you showed with 52% opposing obama care, 13% actually don't think it's liberal enough. so a total of 57% or in some polls 59% of americans either support obama care or if they oppose it oppose it because it's not liberal enough. so those people who are trying to thwart it at this point are in the distinct minority. but it is being portrayed in the press as if they're in the

majority right now. we need to stop doing that at msnbc and across the rest of the media because it suggests that the country opposes insuring the uninsured, and that's simply not true. >> and adding to your argument here that you're making there's another poll out there, jonathan, as you know, which says that the vast majority of americans do not want to shut the government down over a fight on obama care. but i want to ask you, jonathan, to step back for a minute and look at this all big picture here because the president is now officially eight months into his second term. did he or his closest advisers ever imagine they would be right where they are again, fighting the same fights? and to your earlier point, would there be some wisdom on behalf of the white house where they just say, okay, we get it that there are little tweaks that need to happen here and there, let's work on that now, you know, to -- >> no. that would be a bad move by them because their adversaries in this want to destroy obama care. they're not acting in good faith to try to fix obama care.

so until the republicans acknowledge that we live in a society of laws, we believe in the rule of law, and obama care is the law, and until they recognize that, absorb it, tell their constituents, as some of them are now doing, that this is the law of the land that has been upheld by the supreme court, until they do that it can't be fixed because they're not operating in good faith. when they acknowledge that and give up these silly games and stop holding the full faith and credit of the united states hostage to their radical obstructionist agenda, at that point we can get on with the business of fixing the technical problems in this bill. >> jonathan alter and lynn sweet, i look forward to talk to you both again. thanks. >> thank you. >> thanks, alex. new signs of progress in colorado following days of devastating flooding. several state highways have reopened. the nuv people mber of people ud for is now 60 but that number is decreasing. as of yesterday 250 people were

in shelters, which is down from 1,000 at the height of the disaster last week. nbc meteorologist dylan dreier is here with our forecast. hello, dinl. >> hello. good afternoon, alex. we are going to see that cold front move through the area. there are a couple of lingering showers still across the rockies but for the most part most of the country is farrelly dry right now. that cold front is clearing the coast and we are seeing the cooler temperatures work back in behind it. only 61 right now in minneapolis and 63 in chicago. 66 in boston thanks to this dip in the jet stream that is cooling things off around the great lakes and into the northeast. in the northern plains that's where temperatures are warming up. as a matter of fact, it is going to be about 15 degrees above can average as we head into this first day of fall, which of course gets started at exactly 4:44. we are going to see some lingering showers across northern florida. there's the chance that we could see some minor flooding as those heavier downpours move in from the gulf of mexico into western florida. you can see the heaviest of that rain and those thunderstorms sitting just south of tallahassee out over the water.

so we will still see some showers and storms in the southeast. but the northeast is clearing out. we'll top out at 69 degrees in boston but tomorrow is even cooler. 62 degrees for a high in new england. only 67 in new york city. but look back through the plains. tefrpz will be well into the 80s. mid 80s are likely. we are going to see that split across the country very cool and fall-like in the northeast but very warm and still summer-like through the plains. alex? >> okay, dinl dreier. thank you. hoda kotb on wines-day wednesday and why she thinks no one at nbc has stopped those two from drinking. it's an office politics, next. too big.

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at&t mobile share for business. ♪ we are the thinkers. the job jugglers. the up all-nighters. and the ones who turn ideas into action. we've made our passions our life's work. we strive for the moments where we can say, "i did it!" ♪ we are entrepreneurs who started it all... with a signature. legalzoom has helped start over 1 million businesses, turning dreamers into business owners. and we're here to help start yours. in today's "office politics," nbc's hoda kotb, co-host of the 10:00 a.m. hour on "today" with kathdie lee gifford, it's an hour that may be best known for the laughs during its mid-morning cocktail hours. and we're going to get to that. but first, i asked hoda how being diagnosed with and surviving breast cancer changed her life.

>> i was sitting here, and there was an intern sitting in the chair opposite me. and i was telling her how great nbc was. and i had just gone in for a biopsy because someone saw something or -- and i had thought it was a big zero. i'll be honest. i thought it was a nothing. and i had my cell phone right here on my desk. and the set -- the cell phone rang, and it said mount sinai. and the girl who was sitting opposite me said oh, your phone's ringing, should i leave? and i said oh, no, it will just take one second. and i opened up the phone. and i said -- the person on the evened of the phone said something like -- you know, is this hoda in and i said yes. and he said "not good news for you." or something to that effect. and he said, you know, you hear cancer and you hear you need to come in and you hear -- and i literally -- i don't even think i said one word. i just hung up and i looked at the girl opposite me and she said, should i leave? and i don't think i said one word on the phone, and i said, yeah. and she goes, can i ask you a favor? and i thought oh, she's going to ask to reschedule.

or can i have another day. and she said, can i give you a hug? and i looked at this girl and i almost like started sobbing because you know, when you need something, you need to right then. and this kid, who didn't know what was going on, sensed something. and i do think sometimes people step in your life for a second, for a week, for a month, for a year, for a lifetime, you don't know why, but they're right there. and that did -- and so you know, after i heard about it, i'm a -- i want to get it over with and i want to talk about it, i don't want anyone to look at me and feel sorry for me. i just want it done. so i started sprinting around and looking for doctors. and i remember i had to tell my boss here, david corvo, at the time to -- what was happening. and i remember i said to him, i have breast cancer and i have to have a big surgery, and i was just like -- i was a mess. and he said, can i say something to you in and i said yeah. he said, "i have a lot of friends who have breast cancer, and they all have one thing in common." and i said, okay, what's that? and he said, "they're still

here." so after that i just did everything. and i wanted it to be over. i didn't even want to discuss it. i didn't want to be defined by it. i didn't want really anyone to know because that's sort of more my style. and it was a life-altering personally. obviously, you know, because it's just -- it makes you -- it makes your life snap into focus. it makes you weed out -- i hate to say it. it sounds cold. but people who are not helpful or do not nourish you. it's funny how quickly -- how easy decisions are after. >> you know, i think you're kind of lucky because you learned that decision at a pretty young age. you can carry that with you. >> yeah. >> for the rest of your life. >> yeah. you're right. you're right. yeah. >> when we walked in, we saw a pretty large stash of alcohol over there. this winesday wednesday and everything that sprung from that -- >> oh, lord. >> -- did you really think you'd get away with that? apparently you have.

in the middle of the morning? >> i think no one in the nbc building was watching our show for a while. for months. because there's no other explanation. i don't think they knew. because you know how they are. they don't like that. so i don't know how it kept happening and nobody stopped it. we never said anything, and i kept saying, they must not be watching. and then -- unless there's attention on us for some reason. and what happened was chelsea handler wrote a book "hello vodka it's me, chelsea." we gave her a drink. why wouldn't we? we wanted to be hospitable. brooke shields came on a couple days later and said where's mine? where's your what? my drink. so jerry our floor guy -- >> bartender. >> bartender. and i don't know. it just kept happening. and then i wondered, you can't drink alcohol on tv. it's against, you know, fcc or whatever. >> is it? >> i don't think so. >> i don't think so. >> no one has checked. but anyway, we -- don't say a word. but anyway, i think after a while they just sort of forgot

about it and then it's just turned into our little signature. the weird thing is that i'm not a big drinker but i play one on tv. >> something that hoda does very well, along with everything else. don't we just love her? yes. we all do. next weekend another person we love. my interview with author and my former msnbc colleague alison stewart. clearing up questions about obama care, what to expect if you're already insured or not in our next hour. ron: i'm sorry, who are you? jc: i'm your coworker! c'mon guys, i'm driving. hey, you guys comfortable? it's best-in-class rear legroom. no way we'd fit this comfortably in your car, dan. ron: it's ron. jc: ron... and the passat has no-charge scheduled carefree maintenance... wish stevens had "carefree maintenance." right? that guy is so uptight. stevens: i'm "stevens." jc: ron stevens... right... vo: right now get the 2013 passat for 0% apr for 60 months with optional down payment match of up to $500.

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happening right now, pope francis is visiting the coast of italy. he arrived on the island of sardinia earlier, where he is expected to celebrate mass. comments he made in a recent interview with still sending shock waves across the church and has fired up some of the faithful. the pope suggested the church focus more on being merciful and welcoming instead of dwelling on issues of abortion, contraception, and gay marriage. joining me now, father john bartunic, an nbc contributor. and father, we welcome you. i'd like to get, sir, your immediate reaction when you first heard some of these

comments from the pope. >> well, first thing i'd like to say, alex, is it's really an amazing interview. the pope gave a long interview, which was published in multiple languages all over the world last week. and it's a very personal interview. so any reviewers who haven't had a chance to read it yet, i really encourage them to read it. you really get to know this pope on a personal level. and that was what struck me the most. and he talked about so many different topics. i would say i would sum up the message of the interview. as i said, he talked about a lot of topics. but some of the message is he really wants to emphasize the part of the church which reaches out to sinners and welcomes them. and he wants to deemphasize the condemnation of sin. >> so let's talk a little more about what he said in this jesuit magazine, because you're talking about it being a widespread article. we cannot insist only on issues related only to abortion, gay marriage, and the use of contraception methods. this is not possible. we have to find a new balance. otherwise, even the moral

edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards." so you say that he's reaching out to whom? the sinners and others because these comments did not happen by accident. how much do you think he calculated what he was saying? or is this just a very natural communicator and he just speaks his mind? >> i don't think he calculates his comments in a political sense because if you actually read his other interviews, if you read some of the things he wrote, his homilies, even before he was pope, this is a common theme for him. he's not saying that the church should forget about doctorate. not at all. he says in the interview, "of course i hold with all the doctrine of the church." but what he's emphasizing is we can give a wrong impression about that doctrine. we can give the impression that the catholic church is just about a list of to-dos. but that's not it at all. and what he emphasizes in this interview is that those lists of

to-dos and the doctrine, it all flows from an experience of love, the love of god, the love of jesus christ. he began to interview, the first question they asked him is who is jorge bergolio? who is he? that's his name half-he became pope. and his answer was "i am a sinner." the church welcomes sinners and invites sinners to come and experience the love of god. that's the heart. if we forget about that, we're not going to be able to communicate anything else. >> but father, you talk about his not wanting to walk back any of the doctrines. in fact, he did have to walk back some of his comments on friday. he was reaffirming the church's stance on abortion, for example. is that because of the outcry from more conservative catholics? did he feel pressure to do that? >> actually, i think it was from the partial coverage in many of

those reported in the interview. if you read the interview it's clear he's saying we're not going to change moral doctrine. he does not say that. but unfortunately, a lot of the coverage and a lot of the commentary interpreted him, or misinterpreted him as saying that. so in a speech he gave to a group of gynecologists here in rome he emphasized that every child, even unborn children, have the face of christ and we need to welcome them and we need to discover god's love in them. so he wasn't backtracking. he was clarifying some of the misinterpretations i think that were spread after his interview. >> well, father john bartunek, i want to thank you for joining us. and what a beautiful backdrop there. we see vatican city and a beautiful sky. it's inspirational. thank you so much. at the top of the hour we have a live report from kenya on the standoff that continues at a mall in nairobi. ng "new." and now, there's a plan that lets you experience that "new" phone thrill again and again.

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holed up with hostages. the latest from nairobi straight ahead. he's coming to america, but will the new iranian president meet with president obama? it's a race against time to pass a budget, but are republicans in any hurry to prevent a government shutdown? explaining obama care. open enrollment begins in eight days. we will answer some key questions that could clear up confusion. hello, everyone. welcome to "weekends with alex witt." it's 1:00 here on the east, 10:00 a.m. out west. let's get to what's happening right now as we go to the developing story. the massacre at a mall in nairobi, kenya. 59 people are dead. at least 175 others are wounded. the dead are foreigners and expatriates as well. gunmen stormed this very popular shopping mall saturday, reportedly targeting non-muslims. the militant group al shabab has claimed responsibility. we have reports of gunmen still holding hostages.

and joining me on the phone, nbc's ron allen, who has all the latest from nairobi for us. ron, you were with us last hour. i know night has fallen there. so what's the latest on this operation? is there some sort of a operation still under way given nightfall? >> reporter: it's hard to tell from our vantage point exactly what's going on at the mall because there's a security cordon around the area. people who live there, the media have been kept well back because it's still an active situation. a very active situation where there are engagements between the security forces and the gunmen. earlier this evening we heard a number of explosions which were the signal that something was going on. there was also a lot of helicopter activity. military chopper, police helicopter flying past, very, very low and very slow and close to the mall. apparently trying to take a good look at what was going on inside. it seemed to be a situation where the kenyan military, which

seems to be playing a leading role in all this, isn't sure xabtly what's going on completely in all aspects of the mall. the government has said that they think they have contained the gunmen, about 10 to 15 of them or so. they have said that they think there are 30 hostages. but it's such a complicated operation. they're trying to do it very carefully, very slowly. there are still lives at stake. they're trying to show patience. but obviously people here, and there are scores of people who are not sure where their loved ones are some 32 hours or so from the beginning of this ordeal. they want answers and they want this resolved but the government is trying to take it as slowly and carefully as possible to save as many lives as possible. alex? >> understandably so. for the tragedy of the 59 killed do we know, have their bodies been removed from inside the mall? >> reporter: it appears that

many have. it's unclear if all have at this point. there are also 175 people or more who are wounded. and they are overwhelming the local hospitals here. nairobi is a pretty advanced city, but it's not in any way set up to handle something like this. so many people arriving with in some cases what we believe to be fairly horrific wounds from gunfire. there's been a massive blood drive here to try and get people to come donate blood to help with the operation. and this could continue for some time and the death toll, the number of casualties could continue to rise. because again, while there's certainly a heavy military presence and there appear to be stepped-up activities to try to end the situation it could go on for some time because again, it's really unclear just how many hostages are there, how many gunmen are there. and the other problem that observers are suggesting the

government might have is trying to separate the gunmen from the hostages because we believe that many of the gunmen were wearing masks, they were heavily armed. and they may try to blend in with some of the hostages to try and escape. it's just a very complicated situation. the kenyan government is making encouraging and reassuring statements, but they're not revealing everything that's going on. for example, at one point they asked people to be very careful about what they were saying on social media. so as not to clue or give tips to the gunmen as to what was going on outside. so again, one of the pitfalls of the world we live in now, but a reality, a complicated situation trying to handle as responsibly and carefully as possible. >> understandably so, ron allen. thank you so much for the phone-in for that one. letting all of you know the president did make a call to the kenyan president expressing his condolences and saying that they have a shared commitment to

combating terrorism and promoting peace and prosperity in east africa and around the world. we also want to share an american woman's story from north carolina. she was in that nairobi mall and managed to escape. but she along with many others hid from the attackers for more than four hours before she was rescued. 30-year-old bendita malakia was in a food court eating when the attackers struck and tells us what happened. >> we stood up and we started to turn and then there was a second -- then we heard machine guns. and then we started to run and there was a second explosion which knocked us on the ground. you could hear while we were back there them methodically going from store to store talking to people, asking questions, shooting, screams, and then it would stop for a while and then they would go to another story. it was completely luck because we were on the ground floor and easily accessible. so i think part of it was luck. you did a lot of praying in there. >> malakia was one of about 1,000 people rescued from that mall. coming up at the half hour,

homeland security committee chair peter king will talk about the fight against terrorism here in the u.s. t minus eight days until a possible government shutdown. debate is expected to begin tomorrow in the senate on a budget bill that faces certain defeat. the house passed it friday, funding the government through mid december but stripping out funding for obama care. here's republican senator mike leigh of utah on "meet the press." >> the house boldly acted this week and i commend speaker boehner for his leadership on this. >> but i asked a direct question. do you have support in the senate to e. did fund obama care or don't you? >> we have support in the senate. all 45 republicans in the senate in march voted to defund obama care. we will keep those and add a 46th, jeff chiesa from new jersey. i hope that a few senate democrats, particularly those from red states who are up for re-election this year, will consider joining us. >> well, the president isn't backing down. speaking last night at the congressional black caucus

foundation am awarnnual awards . here's what he said about his republican opposition. >> you'd be willing to shut down the government and potentially default for the first time in united states history. because it bothers you so much that we're actually going to make sure that everybody has affordable health care. >> let's get right to the white house and nbc's kristen welker. so kristen, i know the president is going to be pausing to attend a memorial for the navy yard shooting victims earlier this week. but should we expect monday morning he's going to be back on the offensive of this spending showdown? >> reporter: i think he's going to have to be, alex. the last phone call that president obama placed to house speaker john boehner was friday night. no progress was accomplished during that phone call. in fact, it was more of both sides digging in their heels, more with president obama saying he's not going to negotiate over the debt limit. as you point out, they just have eight days left until the government runs out of funding. i wouldn't be surprised if we saw president obama meeting with congressional leaders at some point throughout the week. because if there is a shut down,

even though it is the republicans driving this effort to defund the president's health care law, it would be politically unpopular for everyone involved. today on "meet the press" lawmakers on both sides of the aisle predicted that they will avert a shutdown. take a listen. >> no. we all know that the government's going to be funded. the question is whether it will be funded with obama care or without. >> senator klobuchar, do you think there will be a shutdown? >> no. because i believe in the end people of goodwill will come together and do the right thing and stop this political brinkmanship. >> as much as the president wants a shutdown, he's not going to get it. >> so even if those predictions are accurate, alex, even if they avert a shutdown, there is another big battle looming. that is of course over the debt limit. the nation will reach its debt limit in mid october. republicans girding for a big battle there. they want to see the president's health care law at least scaled back. the funding for it scaled back. if they're going to increase the

debt limit and the president has said consistently he's not going to negotiate over increasing the debt limit. the standoff continues on both of those fronts. meanwhile, economists warned that there is f. there is a shutdown, if the government does default this would be incredibly bad for the economy, which continues to recover at a slow pace. >> i think october 18 is that date when we officially run out of money. thank you very much, kristen welker. joining me now, contributing editor for "newsweek" and the daily beast, eleanor clift, and msnbc contributor and contributing editor for the grio, perry bacon jr. i'll begin with you, eleanor. in your latest article you have a couple of great lines, i might add that i underlined here. one thing i want to quote, "will the gop's rage against obama care accomplish anything?" we just heard gop senator mike leigh saying republicans have enough support in the senate to overturn obama care. does that pass the smell test? i mean, adding up the numbers, does he? >> no. and republican senator bob

corker basically tweeted last week that he didn't go to harvard and princeton like ted cruz but he knows how to count. they don't have enough votes to mount a filibuster. and republicans are divided among themselves. and actually, a lot of conservative voices are speaking out against a shutdown. and yet they seem to be hurtling toward this conclusion anyway. i'm assuming the senate is going to have a fairly easy job to strip out the obama care section and send the legislation back to the house, and then it's up to speaker boehner and whether he will give in legislative speak a clean cr, in other words, a continuing resolution without any caveats, and will he bring that to the floor and let it pass with a majority of democrats? will he violate the so-called hastert rule? which is a modern phenomenon. dennis hastert is hardly a great towering figure in history.

he started this business where when the republicans had control they didn't want anything that didn't pass with a majority of their caucus. but go back to the greats in history, sam rayburn, legislation routinely passed with members of both parties and one party didn't always have to be in the majority. so this is really about will speaker boehner man up here and do what he has to do? >> let's talk about what is law already, perry because even if o'the government shuts down obama care is still in effect. it goes into effect a week from tuesday, october 1st. so what is the republican strategy here? >> the republican strategy is to use these two processes, the debt ceiling process later on, the government shutdown process right now. their view is this is the last chance to somehow delay or defund or stop the law. so they're not going to succeed in defunding it. president obama's never going to

agree to this. the long-term look is republicans think they can get some kind of delay in some parts of the law. one of their plans is to try to get a one-year delay of the individual mandate, which is the requirement everyone buy insurance. so they want to try to nick at parts of the law through this process. that's what their long-term goal is here over the next month. >> before we switch and talk about food stamps i want to ask you how likely is it the government's going to shut down in eight days? eleanor, you first. >> i think so. we've seen this kind of brinkmanship in the past. but with this crowd i wouldn't bet my mortgage on it. >> okay. perry? >> i think no like eleanor, but i think there's a better chance than in 2011. the reason is president obama is very emphatic. he's not going to sign any kind of change to obama care and you have 50 republicans in the house, they're really the leaders in the hour, not john boehner, the 50 conservatives who are really telling him what to do. and i don't think they mind a

sthutdown. that's the key thing to watch here. they're comfortable with shutting the government in place of funding obama care and they have a lot of power right now, a lot of sway. >> how much does john boehner love his job these days, right? i mean, that's kind of a rhetorical question. but wow. >> probably not a lot. >> not a lot. so here we go, eleanor. president obama also spoke last night as you know about the house republicans approving billions of dollars in cuts to food stamps. let's listen to that. >> house republicans voted to cut $40 billion in nutritional aid for struggling families. at the same time as some of the same folks who took that vote are receiving subsidies themselves. so farm subsidies for folks at the top are okay. help feeding your child is somehow not. >> so you also recently wrote about this, eleanor. the white house has threatened to veto it. and you point out only republicans voted to approve it.

what's their calculus here? >> well, the republicans are really taking their marching orders from the leadership on this. and the leadership was listening to a handful of conservative groups. heritage action, the club for growth, and americans for prosperity. and they wanted to break the historic bond between rural and urban interests and not have the farm subsidies and food stamps in the same bill. to their credit these groups would like to cut off the subsidies to farmers. but instead the republican-controlled house boosted crop subsidies for farmers and then really have cut deep deeply into food stamps, or what's called snap, the supplemental nutrition assistance program. this is a program that's working like it's supposed to. it's supposed to grow when we're in a period of deep recession. and i make the point the two

programs, government programs that are working the best these days are quantitative easing, which is kind of a wall street thing. people aren't complaining about that, but they complain about food stamps, which help the very least among us. i think republicans really have lost the pr battle on this because then you catch them getting all these subsidies and then a couple of members were caught basically accepting federal meal subsidies when they're traveling. great hypocrisy. >> all right, you guys. nick's told me twice in my ear i've got to go. i've got to go. perry, i'll start with you first next time. thank you, perry. thank you, eleanor. iran's new president is bringing his charm offensive to america. what does that mean for iran's nukes program? ♪

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just a few months ago we were talking about a possible nuclear showdown involving iran and now we are just two days

away from a possible meeting between iran's new president and president obama at the u.n. more shocking still, signs that iran could be ready to make nice with the western world. president rasn rowhani printed an op-ed in the "washington post" that read "we must work together to end the unhealthy rivalries and infeerns that make riflerise and drive us apart. we must join hands to constructively work toward national dialogue, whether in syria or about rein." >> this is a stark contrast as you know to former president mahmoud ahmadinejad. president rowhani seems to be opening a door for reconciliation with the western world. is he truly a new kind of iranian leader or just a whole lot better at charming his enemies? >> he is a new and different iranian leader.

and there is now a genuine opportunity to start a fruitful negotiation to try to settle some of the burning issues which have created so much distrust. but i have to start by saying that to allege as you did just now that iran has a nukes program is just the kind of sloppy journalism and glib falsification of the facts which makes it very hard for citizens, whether in the united states or around the world to make sense of this issue. >> all right, ambassador dalton. how would you characterize their program? >> intelligence clearly indicates that iran has not taken a decision to build nuclear weapons. >> so you believe it is only for uranium enrichment and energy building, sir? you think it's for entirely peaceful purposes, no questions whatsoever about that? the multiple centrifuges -- >> the fact is that the same issues should be confronted -- iran should be confronted with them exactly the same as we did

in earlier situations under the slogan "trust but verify." we should be prepared to take what iran says, that it will not build nuclear weapons, and that accords with current intelligence assessments that they have not taken a decision to weaponize their nuclear program, and american government spokesmen say that regularly. but we should seek to limit some of their activities and to have a much more intrusive inspection regime. now -- >> sir dalton, may i ask you, sir, do you trust what is being said -- >> -- about iranian program and that is much to be desired. >> sir, do you trust the iranians when they say that -- do you absolutely trust them? when they say they're not developing -- >> i don't yet. but the opinion of nearly all the analysts who look at this is that at worst what iran wants is

what japan and argentina and brazil already have, which is the mastery of a variety of technologies both for civil and potentially at some future point maybe for military purposes. but at present the west is going to get a great deal further with iran if it acknowledges that iran has genuine interests and that its leaders should have their words accepted and there should be a negotiation on the basis of equality. the possibility of sanctions is totally inadequate without using the leverage that has been obtained in a diplomatic negotiation. >> sir dalton, you have said in terms of sanctions that you think those sanctions against iran are really taking a toll on the country. is that what prompted what we can call perhaps an olive branch from iran's new president? >> i think it's made up of many things. first of all, the iranian people

and i believe the overwhelming weight of opinion in the iranian establishment is that the last eight years have been a disaster on many fronts for iran, both in terms of bread and butter issues about the prosperity of its people, social and political and religious issues. there's too much factionalism. there's too much dissent. and president rouhani is just the person to start addressing those issues because he is so well connected across the iranian political world. and he is trusted by the supreme leader of iran, ayatollah khamenei. so yet, sanctions have certainly caught iran's attention and have brought to the fore a group of people who are expressing just what we hear from president rouhani now, long before sanctions were introduced against iran with the current ferocity. the kind of people whom my

country, britain, germany, and france were negotiating with from 2003 and 2005. the issue is the same. will we treat iran on a basis of equality or will we insist merely on humiliating them and subjugating them by economic warfare? the fact is we won't succeed if we just use economic warfare. we have to be smarter than that and use the gradual withdrawal of sanctions in return for specific iranian concessions. >> all right. >> but the difficulty about that approach at presence is the united states is not willing to state what it sees as a end state of the iranian civil nuclear program once it -- the negotiation has been completed. >> we will see if -- sir, i'm sorry. we are out of time. we will see if there is some fruitful discussion this week at the united nations. sir, i'm very sorry that we are out of time. we have a couple of days to see what takes place here in new york city. sir richard dalton. >> thank you. >> thank you. obama care enrollment begins

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eight days away from seeing real impact. open enrollment for the affordable care act begins on october 1st. and exactly three months later, on january 1st, coverage from people who sign up will take effect. the president spoke last night about what that means for uninsured americans. >> uninsured americans will finally be able to get covered for less than $100 a month. everybody's going to be able to get coverage np 6 in 10 will be able get coverage for less than 100 bucks a month. >> joining me to clear up some of the big questions about obama care, sarah cliff, health care reporter for the "washington post." sarah, welcome. because so many have so many questions. will 6 in 10 uninsured truly get coverage for under 100 bucks, as the president says? and what kind of coverage would they get?

will it be comprehensive? >> yeah so, 6 in 10 are eligible for coverage for less than $100 a month. there's a big difference between being eligible and signing up. we're going to see if people actually want to spend that money. if people do decide to sign up, it will be comprehensive coverage. that's a requirement of the affordable care act, is that all insurance plans have to cover ten major categories that include things like physicals, trips to the emergency room, and maternity care if you're pregnant. okay. so in all, how many people are expected to get insurance under this plan? and do you think all of those people even know how to go about enrolling? >> so just next year, in 2014, government forecasters think about 7 million people will sign up. over the course of the decade that's supposed to rise to about 25 million people. right now there's a lot of confusion. most of the polling data we have suggests that uninsured americans either don't know about this law or even if they do they're very confused about how to sign up for it. and i think what you'll see from

the administration over the next month as open enrollment begins is a real push to let people know about these options and really encourage them to start signing up. >> so what about the people that are already insured? should people expect any change in their coverage or access to their doctors or premiums changed? >> if you get insurance through your employer, you shouldn't expect much change. things will be the same in 2013 and 2014. the people who will see a big change are people who buy insurance on their own right now. they might be able to go onto these new online marketplaces called exchanges and maybe use a government subsidy to buy a policy. uninsured people will also see a big change where for the first time companies can't reject them because of a pre-existing condition. so the real change will affect people who are buying their own insurance, not people who are getting it from their employer. >> okay. sarah, there are so many rumors about who pays for all the subsidized coverage. where is that cost being absorbed? is it from businesses?

is it taxpayers? is it younger, healthier americans? >> it's really two separate sources. one is for medicare. one of the ways that the health care law pays for all these government subsidies is by cutting what we pay medicare doctors and hospitals. this doesn't mean we're cutting medicare benefits. we're changing the amount that we pay doctors who see medicare patients. the second source of funding is the health care industry. the affordable care act created a number of new taxes on insurers, on hospitals, and on medical device makers. and those are all being used to help people buy health insurance next year. >> okay. sarah kliff, thanks for helping to clear up a lost questions. i know there are tons more out there. we appreciate your efforts at the "washington post." >> thank you. sqult mall attack in kenya. what do we have to fear about it here in the united states? congressman peter king of the homeland security committee joins us next. it steals your memories. your independence. ensures support, a breakthrough. and sooner than you'd like. sooner than you'd think.

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hostage situation at a mall in nairobi, kenya. the death toll stands at 59 with as many as 175 people wounded. the terrorist group al shabab has claimed responsibility with the gunmen still holding people hostage. while the carnage unfolded inside and around the mall, one woman trapped inside with her family nowhere in sight placed a frantic phone call to a reporter with the associated press. and joining me now, jason straziuso, the a.p. reporter whom she called on the phone. jason, with a welcome, i understand this woman who called you was staying the weekend with your family. so what was the reaction when you and your wife got this call? >> yes, this couple are very close friends of ours. and actually, i was watching my wife as she took the call. and i don't know if you've ever seen horror spread across somebody's face, but that's what i saw. my wife said "just stay low and get down to the ground." and when someone says that you know they're not in a very good situation. >> so when you rushed to the scene, jason, what did you see?

>> i got there maybe ten minutes after the grenades started going off. so it was still somewhat normal. people were in the parking lot. the gunmen had fired on cars driving through the mall. so there were cars with their doors open and bodies hanging out. it was very -- a haunted -- a haunted scene that you're walking right through. >> i can imagine. actually, i can't, to be honest. but this woman who is your family friend, her husband and little girl were apparently inside the mall as the attacks unfolded. what did they tell you about how they survived? could they describe any of the attackers? did they see them? >> my friends did not see the attackers. and i'm thankful for that. i talked to other people who did. but my friends were texting me and they were calling me during the three hours that they were stuck inside. and they were talking about how they could hear gunfire. they didn't know where the gunmen were. they didn't know if security officials knew where the

civilian hostages for lack of a better word were. and they were just trying to -- lindsay, the female friend, was in the movie theater, and she said she was a sitting duck and then they fled to the roof, and then she said she was a sitting duck up there too. so she was just scared and frantic and seeking help. >> a sitting duck, but also this roof incident, apparently lindsay told you that a police officer whom she approached to get some help didn't really seem to care. and even further, you talk about policemen shooting at civilians on the roof in your report. >> yeah. that's right. when they were on the roof, one of the hostages, one of the civilians stuck their head over and a bullet came up and lindsay said it was lodged in the wall. that probably came from police. the policemen who feared that a gunman was on top. the initial moments of any attack like this are just filled with confusion. and frankly, kenya's best

security forces aren't on the scene first. it's beat cops who are walking because they don't have any cars who arrive on scene first. and that's not kenya's best men. >> yeah. it's incredible, actually. i heard they weren't able to get to the scene until 30 minutes later because they are on foot. quickly, jason, lindsay, her husband, her daughter, how are they today? >> well, they spent the night with us again last night. and the little girl woke up and was playing on a swing set with my daughter and playing in the toy room. she seems to be fine. nick is powering through. lindsay's a little bit shaken up still, i can tell. but i think all three of them are going to be fine in the end. >> okay. glad to hear it. jason straziu. and o, thanks for calling in. join meg you now on the phone new york congressman peter king a homeland security committee subchair. it's always nice to talk with you. i want to know if you've learned anything more, sir, about this mall attack in kenya, and what

have you heard about the four american citizens who have been reported injured? representative king, can you hear me, sir? hmm. okay. let's try and get the connection with representative king back. all right. we're going to take a quick break, everybody. we'll be right back and try to hook up with representative king. back in a second. nascar is ab.out excitement but tracking all the action and hearing everything from our marketing partners, the media and millions of fans on social media can be a challenge. that's why we partnered with hp to build the new nascar fan and media engagement center. hp's technology helps us turn millions of tweets, posts and stories into real-time business insights that help nascar win with our fans. jron: i'm sorry, who are you?nt we all like? jc: i'm your coworker! c'mon guys, i'm driving. hey, you guys comfortable? it's best-in-class rear legroom.

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the choice to go back with that experience. it's not a possibility. it is i was imprisoned as an innocent person and i just can't relive that. >> joining me now, criminal defense attorney theodore simon. he represents amanda knox's family. so welcome, theodore. i'm glad you're here. and i know you have certainly spoke nguyen ama spoken with amanda knox. why is it she gave this interview to the "today" show? what is it she felt compelled to say? >> well, i think there's a number of questions people wanted to hear, and i think she felt it was worthwhile to do. i think you should keep in mind, besides the piece you just presented, we have to look at this case from the perspective of the italian judicial system. and even though the supreme court reversed her acquittal from an appellate court jury that actually found her innocent, there is no requirement, there's no legal requirement for her to be there, and it's actually unnecessary. so we can't look at this as if

it's an american case. we have to look at it in that context. so again, she's not required to be there. and it's unnecessary for her to be there. and perhaps another aspect that hasn't been covered is you know, she spent four years as an innocent person in jail. her family, curt knox and ada mellis, virtually stopped their entire lives as well as their extended family. many of them lived over there. and she simply could not put her family through this again. and that was i think another factor among many. again, the other thing that's really critical hire is the supreme court did not rule on her guilt or innocence but sent it back to florence appellate court. and the last appellate court jury that had the ability to reopen, re-examine, redetermine, and reevaluate the facts determined that the trial court had been in error and the true facts are in her favor. whether it had to do with prosecution-presented testimony, prosecution-presented physical evidence, or prosecution conclusions, ultimately what was

determined after a complete and searching inquiry including the court's appointment of independent experts as to each of it it either was absent, non-existent, inaccurate, or just simply wrong. so even though it has been returned for more proceedings, one remains cautiously optimistic, guarded by history, that the same result should obtain. there was no evidence, there is no evidence, and there never will be any evidence. and we already are very familiar that there's no physical evidence of amanda knox in the room where meredith kercher was killed or on her person. that in and of itself tells you she could not be involved in this horrific murder. you know, the theory of the prosecution is she brutally murdered meredith kercher. yet there's no hair, no fiber, no footprint, no shoeprint, no handprint, no palm print, no fingerprint, sweat, cells, dna of any sort of amanda knox in the room where meredith kercher was killed or on her person.

that in and of itself tells you that this is an absolute impossibility. it's unassailable facts that demonstrate unequivocally that not only is she not guilty but as the appellate court jury previously found she's actually completely innocent. >> so you sound confident. she expressed a level of confidence when talking with matt lauer about the case. she said on a scale of 1 to 10 it was a 9 because you never know exactly what's going to happen. and given the history of four years behind bars, as she says, as an innocent woman. i just want to talk about the hypotheticals. extradition should she lose. would she ever be able to travel out of the country? >> well, as we've said before, everything is focused right now on this case and the profound absence of any evidence of her guilt in any way. she's not required to be there. it's unnecessary for her to be there. but to answer your question, if she's found guilty or if she is

found innocent, either side may be able to appeal. and ultimately, it will determine what the supreme court then does. if it should turn out to be a guilty verdict, and we're certainly hopeful it will not, at least if it's based upon the lack of evidence, then if the supreme court should ever do, that then the issue of extradition will come into play. but for now as we've said before it's not on the legal horizon. it's not an issue. and you know, the real question really becomes why should the next verdict be any different than the last one where there is no evidence and there was no evidence and there never will be any evidence. and that's where the focus is. and amanda as well as her family remain reasonably confident, guarded by history, that the right result, one of innocence, will obtain. >> and i was going to say coming from a very confident-sounding attorney there, theodore simon. thank you very much for your time. hollywood's all set for tonight's emmy awards. and the big three is set to make

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it is time for the big three. today's topics are wishful thinking? art imitates life or not. and this week's must reads. let's bring in robert tranum, chevey williams and dana milbank. good to have you all here. >> happy sunday. >> and to you. i'll begin with you, robert. let's take a listen to ted cruz about the budget battle. >> we take this to the american people, i believe the next step after that is starting to get red state democrats, starting to get if you're a mark pryor, a mary landrieu, and you start to get 5,000, 10,000, 20,000 calls

there your constituents, studly it changes the calculus entirely. >> harry reid said this bill will die in the senate. is this wereful thinking on ted cruz's part? >> he does have a point, but at the end of the day, this is going to be a clean bill that the speaker of the house most likely will pass the house of representatives. even if it's not a clean bill, it most likely will have provisions that will probably pass the senate. so under no circumstances will there be a huge budget shutdown. i don't think the republicans with withstand that. >> what do you think of the comments, do you think the democrats in the red states will be pressured to defund? >> what senator cruz said is what eric cantor said and i'm glad they have come out of the closet on this issue. they know they don't have the

votes, so why do you vote on something when you know you don't have the votes to pass it, do you it so they have to take a vote that did be used against them politically. and that's what's happening here. mary landrieu who was for obamacare, mark pryor, et cetera, et cetera, it's not like they haven't taken positions before. this is why it seems futile that they're making the senators take another vote on obamacare. house republicans have voted 41 times. now the senate democrats will vote on a motion. that's fine. but last time i checked, most of ted cruz's caucus will vote for closure. >> we'll have to see. da dana, i want to ask you about your latest piece. you write you may be worried about a government shutdown, but i'm not. you're being a little tongue in cheek. what a surprise. but tell us what you mean. >> well, you don't really worry about a government shutdown or a government default if we're all

going to be killed by the super bugs, the centers for disease control came out and said we're on the edge of a catastrophe with bacteria that are resistant to antibiotics. and i got so frightened by this, i forgot entirely to worry about the avian flu and that mers thing. >> i'm laughing, too. but bottom line, do you think there will be a government shutdown? >> you know, you can't make predictions because we're actually dealing with crazy people here. so you complaint make any kind of a reasonable calculation as to what will actually happen when it gets back to the house. a rational thinking person would say no, it can't possibly happen. as robert was saying. but they're not necessarily as rational and reasonable as robert is. >> so i have a minute change left in the show, so we can do one of two topics.

i'd like to do the one about life imitating art. so we'll have to skip the last must reads. but here's what we're talking about. the four shows nominated for emmys that cover politics. house of cards, scandal, newsroom, and veep. >> no, i'm sorry, but the v.p. schedule has skyrocketed since the interview. >> actually, i'm not sorry. i'm not sure why i said that. >> i'll tell you something, that tv interview was a big gamble, but it really paid off. >> they're calling you the no b.s. vp. >> damn right, they are. i mean i lied and everything, but it sounded true. >> robert, to you first. which one reflects real life the most? >> i would say the newsroom because i used to be a communications director and press secretary and it was actually one episode that was about me. so i would say the newsroom is probably the most realistic. >> jimmy. >> none of the above, but i will go with the newsroom because that is the line of business that we're in.

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impressive baldwin. does it work for hotels? absolutely thank goodness. mrs. villain and i are planning our... you scare me. and i like it. let's go what's in your wallet? this sunday morning, heading to a government shutdown. who will blink first? despite a costly shutdown over 20 years ago, the threat of a repeat is very real this morning. at the heart of the fight, obamacare. we've assembled our own congressional summit with four key lawmakers from the senate and the house. my key question, what is the end game? another mass shooting, this time at a navy yard in washington. what can be done to prevent this in the future? the executive vice president of the national rifle association, wayne lapierre, and i'll talk to a mother of the aurora shooting about her fight for gun laws.