pressive baldwin. does it work for hotels? absolutely thank goodness. mrs. villain and i are planning our... you scare me. and i like it. let's go what's in your wallet? this sunday morning, heading to a government shutdown. who will blink first? despite a costly shutdown over 20 years ago, the threat of a repeat is very real this morning. at the heart of the fight, obamacare. we've assembled our own congressional summit with four key lawmakers from the senate and the house. my key question, what is the end game? another mass shooting, this time at a navy yard in washington. what can be done to prevent this in the future? the executive vice president of the national rifle association, wayne lapierre, and i'll talk to a mother of the aurora shooting about her fight for gun laws.

and the president's policy with iran. bill kristol, tavis smiley. i'm david gregory. all that ahead on "meet the press" this sunday morning. good sunday morning. we're going to get to the government shutdown in just a moment, but first the breaking news we're tracking in nairobi, kenya. one of the most deadly acts of terror in east africa since the u.s. embassies were attacked in 1998. nbc's ron allen is on the phone where the hostages are still being held. he's got late, breaking details for us. ron, good morning. >> reporter: good morning, david. the death toll is now up to 59 and 175 people wounded and those

numbers could easily rise because this is still a very tense and uncertain situation. we believe there are 10 to 15 gunmen still held up in this mall. they're holding up to 30 hostages. the number is unclear. authorities don't seem to have a full grasp of what's going on. we're talking about a huge urban mall, four stories tall, dozens of shops, restaurants, a food court. there was a matinee movie under way. there was a children's event on the roof of the food court with dozens of children entertaining themselves, so a very chaotic situation. the hospital overwhelmed with wounded. we understand there are just a few americans who are involved in this. none of the fatalities are americans, though there are some foreign nationals who were killed. at this point the authorities are taking it slow, trying to get a grasp of what's going on in every inch and every nook and cranny of the mall, and it remains to be seen how patient they will be or whether they will try to force the gunmen out.

we know the man linked to al qaeda has claimed responsibility with the involvement in somalia, but again, this is an uncertain situation now this morning 24 hours old. >> ron allen on the scene for us in nairobi. ron, thank you very much. and back home, the future of the american economy is at stake as congress fights its way toward yet another fiscal deadline, another fiscal crisis. on friday, the house passed a vote to fund the government for the rest of the year, but that bill denies funding for obamacare. bottom line, if there is no agreement between the senate and the house by the end of the month, the federal government could shut down. in the meantime, the battle lines are drawn. >> the american people don't want the government shut down, and they don't want obamacare. >> they're not focused on you. they're focused on politics, they're focused on trying to mess with me.

>> joining me now from utah, republican senator mike lee from minnesota, democratic senator amy klobuchar, barbara lee, representative from california, and marsha blackburn of tennessee. i want to start with a question for all of you which is really a yes or no question. senator lee, is the government going to shut down? >> no. we all know that the government is going to be funded. the question is whether it will be funded with obamacare or without. >> senator klobuchar, do you think there will be a shutdown? >> no, because i believe the people of goodwill will come together and do the right thing and stop this. >> barbara lee, what do you think? >> no, and we're not going to allow the defunding of the affordable care act. >> as much as the president wants a shutdown, he's not going to get it.

>> you all think somehow that will be avoided. the question for you, senator lee, as one of the fire brands in the senate, conservatives who are fighting to defund obamacare, you got what you wanted, you wanted to have this fight, it's now in the house and coming at you in the senate. i don't have to tell you republicans are arguing with each other about whether this is the right thing. you have members of congress who think you have overpromised to the base. carl rove wrote this on thursday. the desire to strike obamacare is praiseworthy, but any strategy to repeal, delay or replace the law must have a credible chance of succeeding or affecting broad public opinion positively. the defunding strategy doesn't. going down that road would strengthen the president while alienating independents. it's a difficult tactic and the senate should reject it. what do you think about that?

>> every since we started defunding the budget in july, they attacked it. some said it is not physically or legally possible to pass a bill that funds government but defunds obamacare. we've seen all those things are untrue. we've seen the american people are rallying around this idea. they have seen the president acting to protect big business, big unions and other special interests and they want to be protected, too. this week -- >> but senator, public opinion is running against obamacare, that's a fact. you also don't have support in the senate to defund obamacare, do you? >> well, look, here's the issue. we have to ask the question, how many more people will have to lose their jobs or have their wages cut or lose their health care benefits before congress acts, before congress does something to protect the american people? how many more states will have

to announce that premiums are going up? this week we saw home depot announcing that 20,000 employees will lose their health care benefits. the house boldly acted this weekend. i commend speaker boehner for his leadership on this. >> do you have the support in the senate to defund obamacare or don't you? >> we had 40% support in march to defund obamacare. we will add a sixth from new jersey. i would hope a few senate democrats, especially those in red states up for reelection this year, will consider joining us. >> here's my question for the group, and i'll come to you, congresswoman blackburn, first. you remember in the shutdown in '95 and '96? >> sure. >> it hurt americans. $1.4 billion in the cost of the government. the images of closed parks and

furloughed workers and parts of the government shutdown was seen as a net negative for republicans. why would you want to go through that again? >> we're not trying to go through it. we know the president wants it because he wants control of the checkbook for congressional spending. republicans are looking to solve the problem of all this spending in washington, d.c. look what has happened with spending since this president took office. look at what is happening with jobs, with the economy. look at what is happening with obamacare. and the impact that that, $2.6 trillion of additional expense, is going to have on federal spending. we want to solve the problem. we would love to have the president meet with us instead of going to meet with putin. >> senator klobuchar? your thoughts on this? >> first of all, david, i think the cuts are a great opportunity here. in my state, unemployment down

to 1.5%, the real estate market is turning around, and you're seeing improvement across the country but we're not where we're supposed to be. the last thing american people want right now is playing political games, putting in poison pills and threatening to shut the government down and default on our debt. what i think we should be doing is moving forward on the immigration bill which reduces our debt by $160 billion in ten years. if you want to talk about debt reduction, there's a good one right there. moving forward on the farm bill and looking for these opportunities to help americans get jobs. and this going to the end every single time like we saw in 2011 when the dow cascaded down 20 points is not the way to go. >> barbara lee, congresswoman, do you agree with your colleague here? do you think the president really wants to push for the shutdown to try to win back the house and get more of his agenda through after the mid-terms? >> the president does not want a government shutdown. first of all, when the president took office we were losing 800,000 jobs per month. the president has turned the economy around. yes, we have a long way to go, but we are creating jobs. this administration is doing

that. with regard to the affordable care act, for the life of me, i can't understand why in the world the affordable care act would be held hostage to our government shutting down. millions of people have already benefited from this. we have children who now receive health care who couldn't receive health care prior to this because of preexisting conditions, we have millions of young people who are still on their parents' health insurance plan who would not be on those plans, we have over 100 million people now who will not be jammed out of their insurance because of the fact they exhaust their benefits. people now are benefiting from affordable care. >> they're being hurt by it. >> they're not being hurt by it. >> look at the 7 million more individuals who will lose employer-provided insurance. that's according to the cbo, because of obamacare. look at the thousands -- we've got over 300 companies that have altered, changed or reduced health benefits because of

obamacare, and that is thousands -- hundreds of thousands of uninsured lives. we have 21.3 million americans who are either on or underemployed. >> health care costs are going down. they're going down for the first time -- >> no, they are not. >> let me inject a point of fact here. there is a lot of confusion and we've done some checking on this as well. even the issue of premiums. they have gone up in some states. they're coming down in other states that they have exchanges. you know full well it depends on who the governor is. if you're a governor of florida, you're going to make it more difficult, the feds have to come in and do it. in new york, democratic governor, they're having an easier time of it. it really does matter where you are. but there is confusion to your opposition. here's the headlines. reuters, cleveland clichk announce job cuts to prepare for obamacare. bloomberg, ge, ibm ending retiree health plans in historic shift.

health care for 100 bucks a month? yes, really. there is vulnerability because it is unpopular, but there is not a fact pattern that you can say is a singular fact pattern in terms of the impact of obamacare yet. >> that may well be the case, but the fact is this law is creating enormous uncertainty that has americans on edge, that has americans understanding they could lose their jobs, they could have their wages or their hours cut, and they could lose their health care benefits, and that's happening to a lot of people. we have to remember, the body that has acted now to prevent a shutdown, to fund government, is the house of representatives. the house of representatives has said let's fund government and not obamacare. that's what the american people want. almost 1.6 million people have gone to dontfundit.com to register their opinion about this law. the house has acted.

the senate now needs to do its job and follow suit. >> senator lee, you're campaigning for this, which i understand. that's your prerogative. you don't really have the support, and what i'm wondering is why focus on this issue to the exclusion of, say, tax reform? i know you've actually proposed something on that, but as a group, why focus so narrowly on obamacare which your own colleagues are saying publicly and privately is not going to be dismantled? even rand paul, while he supports defunding, says in the end it's not going to be repealed. >> well, look, that's shifting, too. as recently as a week or two ago, people were saying the house of representatives would not pass something that funded government wealthy funding obamacare. that turned out not to be true. a few weeks ago people were saying it's not possible to defund obamacare through a continuing resolution. now the house of representatives has passed something that does exactly that. they're calling for this. >> what i can tell you is 58% of

independents say they don't want to defund obamacare if it means shutting down the government. that is a poll from carl rove. the 5000 people who marched to cure alzheimer's, do you want to tell them their loved ones with alzheimer's will have delayed treatment because of a government shutdown? it makes no sense. i come from a high quality health care state and we want to see those reforms at the clinic go across the country. we do not want to relitigate the battles of obamacare again. the house and senate passed it, the senate passed it into law, the court upheld it. will there be changes in the future? yes. but the answer is not to defund it. >> now to get to the debt limit. what we're talking about now is funding the government. if you don't do it by the end of the month, possible shutdown. that's a separate matter from raising the debt limit which you have to do to pay the bills for the appropriations congress has made.

the house, i'm told, wants to pass a bill that would delay obamacare by a year and make that a part of an agreement to raise the debt limit. congresswoman, the president says he's not going to negotiate. >> we must pay our bills. we are not a deadbeat nation. this should not be held as a bargaining chip, it should not be held hostage. we've raised the debt limit over 40 times now. >> do you have the votes to raise it right now? >> the president has not said he would not do something with regard to the budget. he is not going to negotiate on something that should not have to be negotiated about, and that's raising the debt ceiling. we've got to pay our bills. >> in the past, and here's a list of all the times that congress has worked with the commander in chief to raise the debt limit and institute some serious budget reforms. >> but that was not held as a bargaining chip.

>> it would delay it for one year. and one of the things we make certain we do is prohibit all the taxes. senator klobuchar's state with all the medical devices, that's a 2.3% tax. >> it was not held hostage. it was not a bargaining chip. this has nothing to do with raising the debt ceiling. >> the disagreement continues. one last question, senator klobuchar, bottom line. will there be an agreement on raising the debt limit despite the fact the president would not like to negotiate about it? >> i believe that there will be an agreement, and i think we can do it without any of these extraneous, partisan poison pills because the american people remember what happened back in 2011. we had our credit rating reduced, and it cost us $1.3 billion in extra borrowing costs. this is money taxpayers have to pay. this is affecting families and real people, and that's why i think in the end this gaming

manship has to end and we have to get on the real business of the american people, and that's why i think we'll move on and negotiate a real budget that's balanced. >> this is just getting started. you're getting a sense of that here this morning. senator lee, thank you so much, amy klobuchar, barbara lee, marsha blackburn. when we come back, the nra's wayne lapierre is here with me exclusively. plus a response from a mother whose daughter was a victim in the aurora theater shooting. and later our political round table. and we will be talking about obamacare and foreign affairs as well. we'll be right back. i know what you're thinking...

transit fares! as in the 37 billion transit fares we help collect each year. no? oh, right. you're thinking of the 1.6 million daily customer care interactions xerox handles. or the 900 million health insurance claims we process. so, it's no surprise to you that companies depend on today's xerox for services that simplify how work gets done. which is...pretty much what we've always stood for. with xerox, you're ready for real business.

it would run on the most affordable energy source available. it would charge overnight. every morning, you'd wake up with a full tank, ready to go. if the car was invented today, it would be the 100% electric nissan leaf. with over 200 million gas-free miles driven and automatic hov lane access, the question isn't "why electric?" it's "why gas?" [ male announcer ] the 100% electric nissan leaf. nissan. innovation that excites. now get a 2013 nissan leaf for $199 a month. ♪

as long as there are those who fight to make it as easy as possible for dangerous people to get their hands on guns, then we have to work as hard as possible for the sake of our children. we have to be the ones to do more work to make it harder. >> we are back. that was the president last night at a dinner here in washington for the congressional black caucus. joining me now, the executive vice president of the national rifle association, wayne lapierre. mr. lapierre, welcome back to "meet the press." >> thank you, david. >> is this the new normal? a police commissioner described it that way. the president talked about almost a routine the country goes through after these horrific acts. is that what we're forced to live with at this point? >> let's talk about this week. david, this is a tragedy that should not have happened, a memorial service that should not be taking place and victims that

should not be victims. in a post-9/11 world, a naval base within miles from congress, the white house, seven miles from here, largely left unprotected, a terrorist target, a high valued terrorist target completely unprotected. that can't stand. nra is calling today for layers of security around our military bases. and the other thing we need to take a look at is all these brave men and women that are trained in firearms that signed up to serve in the military, they're largely disarmed on our military bases. we need to look at letting the men and women that know firearms and are trained in them do what they do best, which is protect and survive. >> this is similar. after newtown, you were out spoken and saying that more security was the answer. this is what you said after that massacre. >> the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

>> this was the navy yard. there were armed guards there, mr. lapierre. does that not undermine your argument? >> no. the whole country, david, knows the problem is there wasn't enough good guys with guns. when the good guys with guns got there, it stopped. what really happened here? the mental health situation in the country is in complete breakdown. >> i want to get to that, but let's focus on the security aspect. can it be the sliding scale where you do have armed guards there but now there's not enough armed guards, and when it comes to schools, if only we had an armed guard and we had teachers who had weapons, then we could stop it? where does it stop? >> how could anybody look at what happened this week and say there was enough security there? there was one guy, a private security firm, god bless him, he ran toward the fire. there were six others there that were guarding the gates.

the capitol hill swat team was told to stand down. where is the outrage about that? the radios didn't work. we need to turn seven minutes response, we need to turn 30 minutes before they bring down the shooter into 7 seconds and 30 seconds. that's when we need to be doing and that's what i'm talking about with armed response. there is not a homeowner in northern virginia that if somebody is breaking in their door would be satisfied with 30 minutes. >> you just heard the president basically saying we have to keep the fight up for gun restrictions. is the gun control debate over? >> david, you know, all the outrage this week the first two days of the media and the politicians trying to stir this toward firearms, the outrage ought to be placed on an unprotected naval base, on a criminal justice system in chicago that doesn't even enforce the federal gun laws when we could dramatically cut violence on a mental health system that is completely broken, on a check system that is a complete joke in terms of

stopping the bad guys and a criminal justice system in this country, just this past week, because of budget collapse, they're releasing 23,000 people back to the streets in los angeles, a lot of them violent and a lot of them sex offenders. that's where the outrage of the american public is. >> can i ask you about mental health? because it seems so very difficult, and as someone who represents a group keenly interested in protecting core rights. there are also the rights of individuals when it comes to involuntarily committing them to a mental institution because of mental illness. look at the timeline for the shooter here, aaron alexis, where he's just under the radar. in may of 2004, he's arrested for shooting tires out in seattle. september 2010, he's arrested after he fired a bullet through his ceiling in ft. worth, then police were called because he was hearing voices at work. they call his mother at work but they don't actually call the navy.

should someone who shows mental illness like that be able to purchase a gun? >> they should be committed, and if they are committed, they shouldn't be at the naval yard. i've been in the check business for 20 years. i said the system has been broken for 20 years and nobody listens. the nra supported the gun check because we thought the mental records would be in the support, we thought criminals would be in the system and we thought people would be prosecuted. we're in a situation now where the criminal records aren't in the system. the mental records, even those adjudicated dangerous are not in the system and nobody is prosecuted. >> i take your point -- >> but here's what happens. so the aurora shooter in colorado gets checked and is cleared. the tucson shooter is checked and gets cleared. aaron alexis goes to the federal and state check and gets cleared because the mental health system makes this person completely unrecognizable. >> but i'm asking what the nra would support.

like in florida, for instance, if you were voluntarily -- voluntarily -- committed to a mental health institution that you would support barring gun purchases. do i have that right? >> i think if they adjudicate you like virginia has done now, where if you're involuntarily committed or if the mental health people say you're dangerous, you need to be in the system. >> could there be a lower threshold you could support where there is some mental illness that says, let's do whatever we can to stop the carnage and limit sales? >> i'll tell you what's going to happen. we're going to have the discussion today. it's on other channels. when the cameras go off, nobody is going to do anything. if we leave these homicidal maniacs on the street, they don't obey the law, they could care less about it, they're going to kill.

the only way you can stop them is they send up the red flags. it's like a plane going down the beach with a sign behind it saying, i'm dangerous, and we leave them on the street. >> i want to show you a piece of tape in just a second. let me set it up here. we asked people on facebook, what would you like to ask wayne lapierre. there are so many people who oppose you and the nra because they say, look, a vast majority of americans support gun legislation, people in colorado support additional restrictions. here was a victim at virginia tech who was on with my colleague andrea mitchell this weekend and he asked this question. i'm going to give you an opportunity to respond. >> i would ask wayne, look, let's talk about what it means to be a responsible gun owner? do you think as a responsible human being, if you sell a gun to someone you don't know, you should require a background check before they can own it? >> a hunter to a hunter in another state, a farmer to a farmer. no, i don't believe you ought to be under the thumb of the federal government.

but that's what's wrong with this town, david. here we have a military base completely unprotected, we have a mental system completely broken down. they're trafficking in 13-year-old girls down the street. there's all kinds of drugs, all kinds of guns and the priority of this town is, hey, do you think a hunter that sells a gun to a hunter in kansas ought to have to be under the thumb of the federal government? no, i tell you what the nra is for. incarcerating violent criminals, get them off the street. get mentally ill people in treatment. if there is a gun on the street that shouldn't have it, get them prosecuted. let's get our fiscal house in order so we can put guns back on the street. >> thank you for being here, mr. lapierre. >> thank you, david. coming up, we're going to get a response from a woman who knows the pain of this firsthand.

her daughter was killed in the aurora shooting last year. chuck todd, our political director with his first read sunday. a look at the week in politics that is ahead, after this. sunday. [ male announcer ] pepcid® presents: the burns family bbq. guys, you took tums® a couple hours ago. why keep taking it if you know your heartburn keeps coming back? that's how it works. you take some tums®. if heartburn comes back, you take some more. that doesn't make any sense. it makes plenty of sense if you don't think about it! really, honey, why can't you just deal with it like everybody else? because i took a pepcid®. fine. debbie, you're my new favorite. [ male announcer ] break with tradition, take pepcid® complete. it works fast and lasts. get relief from your heartburn relief with pepcid® complete. ♪ we go, go, we don't have to go solo ♪ ♪ fire, fire, you can take me higher ♪ ♪ take me to the mountains, start a revolution ♪ ♪ hold my hand, we can make, we can make a contribution ♪

♪ brand-new season, keep it in motion ♪ ♪ 'cause the rhyme is the reason ♪ ♪ break through, man, it doesn't matter who you're talking to ♪ [ male announcer ] completely redesigned for whatever you love to do. the all-new nissan versa note. your door to more. ♪

we are back. you just heard from wayne lapierre of the nra. i want to turn to sandy phillips. she has become an activist for gun control when her daughter, just 21 years old, was shot when james holmes shot her and other members of the public. this week, one week after the navy yard shooting, she was in washington for more lobbies on

gun restriction. thank you for being with us. >> thank you. >> when you were here and heard what happened at the navy yard, can you describe your reaction to it? >> david, any time you've been a victim of gun violence like we have, when you hear news like that, it takes you back to what happened when you heard your news. we got our news in the middle of the night from a young man who was with our daughter who called me 20 minutes after the theater shooting. he told me with screaming going on in the background that our daughter was dead. we found out she was shot six times and her brains were blown out. jesse lying on that cold theater floor is the vision i wake up with every morning and go to bed with every night. and now they're 12 more victims' families that go through the same thing.

i wish i could tell them it gets easier, but it doesn't. >> and now you and your husband are trying to get gun restrictions to prevent these kinds of massacres. you heard wayne lapierre. the nra has been successful in blocking many of those efforts. i asked him, is the gun debate over? do you fear all we're left to do is sort of wait for the next one to happen now? >> it took six votes over seven years to get the initial brady law passed, and sara and jim brady didn't give up. those of us who are involved, and unfortunately, our numbers are growing, we're not giving up. it will happen. we need to expand those background checks so this kind of thing doesn't continue to happen. we need to give our law enforcement the tools that they need to get that job done. >> but do you agree with any element of what he said? is more security the answer on bases, for example, or in other

public places? >> more guns, that's certainly not the answer. more guns, more people that may be triggered by violence, predispositioned to it, anyway, just muddies the issue. >> what is the most respect active response to a series of massacres where mental health seems to be the centerpiece? what's the means to stop them when we know violence is everywhere? >> the worst part of this, in my opinion, is with expanded background checks, we're going to close a lot of those gaps in our system, especially online sales and the gun show loopholes that still exist. if you can do that, then it doesn't matter if someone is not as, shall i say -- if they're predisposed to violence, if you can stop that and have that put into the system, the system can only work as well as what's put

into the system. so, yes, we have to look at the entire comprehensive approach. but with the background checks, that's the first step. and 90% of americans want them and over 70% of lapierre's members want them. so it's not a hard fix. >> just a couple seconds left. your advice to those who are going through the grief you went through after this shooting? >> my heart breaks for them. again, i'd like to say it's something that eases in time. their lives are never going to be the same. i hope that they choose to get involved with us, but that takes time. hopefully there won't be a whole lot more people joining us on this path. >> sandy phillips, thank you very much for being here. i'm sorry for your loss that unfortunately you have to relive during times like this, but i appreciate your time this morning. >> thank you very much. we're going to be back. our political round table.

we'll get back to the showdown over obamacare, and yes, the aftermath of the navy yard shooting. joining me, bill kristol, tavis smiley. we're back here in a few minutes. ♪ nascar is ab.out excitement but tracking all the action and hearing everything from our marketing partners, the media and millions of fans on social media can be a challenge. that's why we partnered with hp to build the new nascar fan and media engagement center. hp's technology helps us turn millions of tweets, posts and stories into real-time business insights that help nascar win with our fans.

mom? come in here. come in where? welcome to my mom cave. wow. sit down. you need some campbell's chunky soup before today's big game, new chunky cheeseburger. mmm. i love cheeseburgers. i know you do. when did you get this place? when i negotiated your new contract, it was part of the deal. cool. [ male announcer ] campbell's chunky soup. it fills you up right.

"meet the press" continues with our political roundtable. joining us this morning, bill kristol, kim strassel, robin gibbs and tavis smiley. now here's david gregory. >> we're back. i want to talk about our shutdown of politics. here we go again. who is up, who is down, and does this get averted, bill? >> i think it gets averted at least for now. i think house republicans are up suddenly after a few weeks of disarray. they actually passed a bill to keep the government going and take down obamacare. people can say, the house republicans are in disarray, but only one body actually voted to keep the obamacare open. the senate has done nothing.

no continued resolution and no appropriations bills. >> i think the wall street journal summed this upper effectually this week, and that is kamikaze missions are rarely successful, least of all from the pilots. if you think about this from the white house perspective, about to lose a vote on syria, here the enemies throw you a rope and want to get in the quicksand instead of you. you can see from your interview with the republicans, they have a strategy on how to do one bill and they have no real clue as to what the next step is in that strategy. >> i don't know if that's exactly the case. look, the art of winning a political battle is exerting leverage on the other side. you get them to do what you want them to do. the problem with defunding obamacare so far is they're holding government shutdown as their leverage.

given that could hurt them if that actually happens, they're saying, give us what we want or we're going to shoot ourselves in the foot. coming forward, if senator reid ends up sending back a clean cr to the house, the question for republicans is, are there not in fact better means of exerting pressure on democrats and forcing them, testing the outer boundaries of their support for the law? there are ways you can do that. you can look at delaying the original mandate, something that dozens of house members have done. there is this talk about the congressional exemption the white house gave to members of congress and whether or not you could put that in there and put some pressure on democrats to make some changes in the law. it's about what comes next. >> i've never seen a party so hell bent on self destruction, and i quite frankly don't get it. as imperfect as obamacare is, this political posturing and point scoring about defunding it is not the answer.

the case has already been made that it's been passed, it's been upheld by congress, and again, this doesn't make much sense to the american people. the real problem here is, and i clearly am not a republican, but the point is i think our country works best when there is a strong two-party system, and i think the republicans are doing themselves, and quite frankly, the country a disservice if this is how they want to self-destruct. we need a strong two-party system in this country, and if you're going to wipe yourself out, shoot yourself in the foot, shoot yourself in the head, then you're hurting this country. >> tavis, there is this thing called the congressional ballot. has not changed at all in a few months. i'm not making a political point, i'm just saying as of now for all this talk about, oh, my god, those republicans look terrible. the republicans don't like obamacare. if they can move beyond the defunding to delaying particular

parts of obamacare, especially the unpopular parts like individual mandates, i have support of that. >> there is not one poll that shows this is a smart strategy. and look, general custer, if you want to go, i won't hold you back. >> bill is absolutely right. there isn't one poll that shows americans approve a majority of this health care law. >> but there's not one poll that says we should hold government, the running of government hostage from the defunding of obamacare. >> they just did. they just authorized funding for the government. >> this is the problem, whenever we have these sunday morning chats. it's all about putting our finger up to the wind. sometimes the right thing is the difficult thing. i think you always have to lead by a certain amount of principles. civil rights wasn't the right thing to do for this country, it wasn't passing a poll bill, yet it was the right thing to do.

>> republicans believe obamacare is horrible. >> it's about one thing, obstruct obama. >> nancy pelosi or other democrats would have voted against pelosicare or kerrycare. it's not personal to obama. >> one of the reasons the senate has not acted in any way to fund government is because right now there is no democratic vote for a clean cr. >> you can't keep saying cr. >> a clean funding of government bill in that they think the sequester levels are too low, so they're willing to shut down the government for the right to be able to spend more money. >> i'd like to clarify some points here, too, for the audience beyond cr. the fact that we're talking about the government shutdown is separate from a debt limit. given what the white house went through in 2011, it hurt the white house, it hurt republicans and it hurt americans not flirting with the debt limit.

the president said, look, i'm not going to negotiate on this. the problem is where are the votes? he can't get votes in congress for the debt limit without congress, can he? >> it's going to be a big test. i do think the specter of how this might tinker with the economy is certainly one that's out there, but look, i think the results of this are unknown and we have seen, you know, these sort of messy fights are very disconsonant with people in real america because they don't see why people can't sit down at a table and come up with a real resolution for these problems. >> you were concerned like others about the vote on food stamps this week. this is about size, scope, the direction of government. in the republican party, this is going to become a big campaign

issue. it's going to be in 2014 but it's also for those who want to run for president in 2016. the question will be, where were you on obamacare? >> i think this country is facing a moment where we have to make a decision about what kind of nation and what kind of people we're going to be. the president recently, much to my chagrin, spoke about this notion of american exceptionalism, and clearly he isn't the only one in town that likes to push that notion that we as americans are exceptional. the actions in america this week alone gives us the reason to push back that claim. when americans want to shut down a government of political posturing, when you can kill innocent children at sandy hook and there's no real gun control debate, those who are supposed to protect our babies, and now you fire on those who are supposed to protect us, and nobody at this table believes a real gun control debate is going to come out because all this other stuff will push it to the side. it's not just mental illness, that's a real issue, but you've got this black guy running toward the police asking for

help and they shoot and kill him. congress has a 60% approval rating and the answer is to shut it down? what kind of people are we going to be? if we don't correct this soon, we're going to lose our democracy. it's that serious. >> i want to come back and pick up whether there is a future on the gun control debate. this is a big week in presidential leadership on some crises overseas in iran and syria. and yes, hillary clinton is out there, too, talking about whether she has to make a decision just yet about whether she runs for president in 2016. more on our round table. [ taps baton ]

[ dings ] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] every thought... every movement... ♪ ...carefully planned, coordinated and synchronized. ♪ performing together with a single, united purpose. ♪ that's what makes the world's leading airline... flyer friendly.

♪

we're back with our group. syria, now iran. is there a we're back with our group. syria, now iran. is there a breakthrough here? bill kristol doesn't think so. he wrote this in the weekly standards. syria is merely act i. next week act ii opens at the united nations. there we'll see a charm offensive worthy of richard iii by the new iranian president and veteran. the obama administration will move on from punting in syria to appeasing iran. the diplomatic dance in iran will be long in complex, but who doubts that the people will end up where iran, the leading partner, wants to go?ain comple who doubts that the people will end up where iran, the leading partner, wants to go? bill, the counterpoint to that is maybe these openings are happening because obama threatened a military strike and he's actually tough, and that's what the russians and iranians and syrians think. >> i don't think the iranians and syrians are at all impressed with obama.

he threatened to do it, he didn't do it, and now syria is paying for the use of chemical weapons. i think the obama administration thinks that's a template for how to go down a diplomatic path, kick the can down the road, not have to make any tough decisions and maybe he can kick the can further down the road that the next administration will maybe have to deal with a civil war, and iran is maybe closer to or even has nuclear weapons capability. >> economic sanctions imposed over the course of many years have had a big impact on the iranian economy, and that puts big pressure on leaders to do something. i think, look, we will get an opportunity to see this week, and everyone should press the iranians on just how serious they might be. we've seen them before say they might want to have conversations but never move to the next step,

and i think it's certainly worth, as we hold strong economic sanctions in the threat of military force, see if they're willing. >> i want to talk about hillary clinton. if we're talking about presidential leadership, we're still taking her measure. she has an interview with new york magazine that came out this morning, and here's what she said. i'm not in any hurry, i think it a serious decision, not to be made lightly, but also one that doesn't have to be made soon. >> and one that has to be made in the public eye as often as i can. hillary clinton, ever since she lost back in 2008, has been positioning herself to do exactly this move. going off to be secretary of state, putting her in the public eye. we're going to be hearing a lot from hillary clinton other than what her decision is, but she's going to make sure she's out there with interviews like this just to keep herself in the public eye.

>> she has time to make that decision. i don't know how you can have this many people pulling for you to run whether you can not run. >> does she stay close to president obama, or does she need separation from president obama to be effective? >> i think the answer is yes and no. it depends on the issue you're talking about. timing is everything. >> she should be in no rush to make this decision. she is far ahead, much farther ahead now, a much better political position than she was in '07 and '08. if you get in the fray at this point, your approval ratings and credibility will come down. if i were her, i would take some time, think about the ideas she wants to move forward. not barack obama's ideas, not president clinton's ideas, they have to be hers. >> she doesn't have to position herself because there isn't a very big democratic field. >> do you think these vulnerable from the republican side? >> i think she's more vulnerable than anyone thinks. i think she's a good candidate for republicans to run against.

let her defend the foreign policy that she presided over as secretary of state for four years, and i think her governing with contrast would be a good thing. i'm going to leave it there. thanks to all of you. we're going back with our political director. his first read sunday, what to look for in the week ahead in politics. asthma doesn't affect my job... you were out sick last week. my asthma doesn't bother my family... you coughed all through our date night! i hardly use my rescue inhaler at all. what did you say? how about - every day? coping with asthma isn't controlling it. test your level of control at asthma.com, then talk to your doctor. there may be more you could do for your asthma. my high school science teacher made me what i am today.

our science teacher helped us build it. ♪ now i'm a geologist at chevron, and i get to help science teachers. it has four servo motors and a wireless microcontroller. over the last three years we've put nearly 100 million dollars into american education. that's thousands of kids learning to love science. ♪ isn't that cool? and that's pretty cool. ♪ isn't that cool? and that's pretty cool. "stubborn love" by the lumineers did you i did. email? so what did you think of the house? did you see the school ratings? oh, you're right. hey babe, i got to go. bye daddy! have a good day at school, ok? ...but what about when my parents visit? ok. i just love this one... and it's next to a park. i love it. i love it too. here's our new house... daddy! you're not just looking for a house. you're looking for a place for your life to happen.

more is better. that's why we designed the all-new nissan versa note, with more technology, to get you into, and out of, tight spots. and more space so that you always have your favorite stuff. and just for good measure, an incredibly efficient 40 mpg highway. so that when you're doing more, you're spending less. the all-new nissan versa note. your door to more. ♪ apple and blackberry, a tale of two companies with very different stories this week. apple, as you know, launched two new iphones while blackberry apple and blackberry, a tale of two companies with very different stories this week. apple, as you know, launched two new iphones while blackberry announced it's planning to cut 40% of its work force. it looks like congress is echoing that trend. in total we found the members of congress use iphones twice as much as blackberry, 58% to 23%. we posted more about our survey exclusively on zbox.

if you haven't already, download the zbox app on your mobile device so you can join the conversation. we don't have the numbers for people like me who use both. we're back here in just a moment with chuck todd's assessment. it starts with something little, like taking a first step. and then another. and another. and if you do it. and your friends do it. and their friends do it... soon we'll be walking our way to awareness, support and an end to alzheimer's disease. and that? that would be big. grab your friends and family and start a team today. register at alz.org to prove to you that aleve is the better choice for her, she's agreed to give it up. that's today? [ male announcer ] we'll be with her all day to see how it goes. [ claira ] after the deliveries, i was okay. now the ciabatta is done and the pain is starting again. more pills? seriously?

seriously. [ groans ] all these stops to take more pills can be a pain. can i get my aleve back? ♪ for my pain, i want my aleve. [ male announcer ] look for the easy-open red arthritis cap. here now, some of this week's images to remember.

i personally asked chuck todd for that picture to be in there. but we should also congratulate the red sox. they were last last year, and now they won their division. our first read sunday, you're looking at a big week in the united nations. iran and the united states we talked about in the round table. what will we see here? >> there will be the obama administration reward for rouhani's tone change. the question is, is it a hand shake in the hall, or is it something else? there is some work and still some wariness there and they're not going to go too much in with rouhani. >> in virginia, they'll be moderating a debate between cucinelli and mccall. this is a tough race. >> cucinelli trying to attack mccullough's character.

running against cucinelli's idealogy. >> it's not just the president raising money to sell obamacare and the republicans are doing it, too. >> you can argue that the nominee is likely from this group that will be at this fundraiser. look at this list. chris christie is woody johnson's favorite from this six, but bringing in both sides of the party, it's interesting to see who gets the most juice among these big donors. >> just a couple seconds. there is no momentum, is there, for gun control? do you see it there? >> not at all. maybe you'll see a tightening of mental health bills. frankly you'll see congress mess around more with the contractor laws. >> chuck todd, big week ahead. thank you so much for being here. much more from you online at nbcnews.com, and of course on the daily rundown tomorrow.

that's all for today. we'll be back next week. if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." today. we'll be back next week. if it's sunday, it's so he shot at my head, but luckily it hit the wall behind me. hello. breaking news. new eruptions of gunfire, and explosions for a second day at a kenyan mall. terrorists holding hostages while government forces vow to end the tstandoff tonight. we're live on the scene. all of our children can go to school or walk down the street free from the fear that they will be struck down by a stray bullet. >> pushing for reform. the president urging americans to keep