what are you guys doing? having some fiber! with new phillips' fiber good gummies. they're fruity delicious! just two gummies have 4 grams of fiber! to help support regularity! i want some... [ woman ] hop on over! [ marge ] fiber the fun way, from phillips'. good saturday afternoon. i'm craig melvin. you're watching msnbc. two days remain for congress to reach a budget deal. a short time ago, odds of a shutdown went up. right now, the house is holding a rare saturday session capping a week of ramped-up rhetoric and threats. >> the american people are suffering under obama care. obama care isn't working. >> the people that are trying to get ahead are the people it's directly hurting. >> we are for cutting spending and reforming our tax code. >> all this would be funny if it wasn't so crazy.

and a lot of it is just hot air. a lot of it's just politics. i understand that. >> that story also today, defending the delays. days before the launch of the new health care law, controversy and confusion. >> anytime you have a massive change like this, there are going to be issues. there are a lot of difficulties with the law. >> we have an opportunity for the first time ever in the history of this country to say to all americans, you have affordable health care coming your way. and 216 years in the making. president george washington gets his own library. the secrets you will not find there. also today, kindness through coffee. how one family's quest to keep their daughter's memory alive has sparked a worldwide movement. it is today's "big idea."

first, right to our developing story on capitol hill. at this hour, we've learned that republicans will likely be voting to pass a bill that delays obama care for a year and then send that bill back to the senate. again, all of this just two days before a possible government shutdown. luke russert have been following all this on the hill for us. luke, let's start with the plan. what's in it? what's in that gop plan and what's the likelihood that this plan is going to get through the senate? >> reporter: well, it will not get through the senate, i can tell you that right off the bat. harry reid will reject it and democrats i've spoken to there said they won't even look at it, more or less. you have a one-year delay of the president's health care law. you then have a permanent repeal of a medical device tax which has bipartisan support if you put it up there by itself. and lastly you would have the troops in the event of a government shutdown getting the

money owed to them. if the government shuts down, folks on the front lines are not paid. that's partly optics, partly some of the red meat the gop base wants. however, like we've been saying all along, this simply just delays the inevitable, which is for the government to be funded cleanly without going after the president's health care law, the only way for john boehner to do that is to pass a bill with democratic support. this bill will come out of the house later today, more likely than not, with all republican support. i haven't spoken to a single democrat that will support it. this just brings us closer to that deadline at midnight on monday night where the government shuts down with two sides very much still very far apart. i spoke to one member before i came over here. he said, look, one thing we're really trying to do with this bill is put it over to the senate and make red state democrats have to vote on it. more likely than not, harry reid is not going to make anyone vote on this.

but that's the idea, to make democrats go on the defensive once again over the president's health care law. >> luke russert, we'll check back in with you throughout the afternoon and into the evening. >> reporter: going to be a whirlwind. >> it always is. meanwhile, the clock ticking, the clock continues to tick as this game of political chicken continues. but the consequences could be very real if lawmakers do not do something by monday night at midnight. here's what could happen. things deemed essential like the military, public safety and health services, those things will not be immediately affected. air traffic controllers will show up. if you get social security checks, those checks keep coming. but about 800,000 so-called non-essential federal employees could be sent home. new applications for social security, medicare and medicaid benefits, those new applications might be delayed. irs help lines for taxpayers could shut down. and the nation's more than 400 national parks would close to

the public. but a lot of this -- a lot of this depends on how long a shutdown lasts. bill schneider is a resident fellow at the third way, a.b. stoddard and blanche lincoln, the former senator from arkansas, join us. blanche, you've been a washington insider. walk us through what's going on behind closed doors right now? >> there is a certain amount of panic going on among members' offices because they're hearing from their constituents. they have a lot of federal employees in their districts and in their states. so everybody's wondering. this kind of confusion is not healthy for the country. it really has nothing to do with what we need to be focused on. a government shutdown, defaulting on our nation's debt will do nothing to create the jobs that we need and put the economy back on track. so that's what members are dealing with, is the frustration and the anxiousness among their

constituencies about why is congress not settling down and doing what they're supposed to be doing, which is working together to solve the problems of this country. so that's what members' offices are. and i'm sure it's chaotic. i know a lot of the staff that are in there working today and trying to deal with the concerns that are coming out of their districts. but by and large, they're going to have to figure out because by the middle of october, you're going to start seeing some real problems if they don't do something. >> bill, let's talk about the elements of this republican plan that we just outlined off the top. first of all, what might be behind a one-year delay of obama care? >> well, it's just a step towards killing obama care which democrats understand. i'm not sure if this means a delay in the whole program or just a delay in the mandate, the individual mandate where people would be required to purchase health care. if that's the case, then older and sicker people will sign up quickly. that would increase insurance companies' costs and premiums might skyrocket. that would probably destroy the program. whatever it means exactly -- i'm

not sure because this is very new -- democrats are not going to allow that to happen. >> a.b., let's talk about the time line here and what we will probably see happen over the next 36 hours, maybe 48 hours. what are we looking at here and the likelihood of a shutdown now versus just a few hours ago before this plan was revealed, likelihood much higher? >> much higher. senator harry reid said time's up. putting pressure on the house to pass the clean version of the senate continuing resolution. and they basically said the ball's in your court, you have to pass a stopgap funding bill, fund the government for a few months but no additions, no add-ons. now it's a christmas tree of add-ons. as luke pointed out, the senate democrats are going to reject it. he might not even take it up. sure, there would be time for him to take it up tomorrow or tomorrow night or monday morning. and republicans i've spoken to

who are not actually pushing the one-year deal or else said a repeal of the medical device tax, provision to pay the military no matter what and funding for the government through december 15th would be fine with them, that probably has the makings of a deal. there's hope among them, especially house speaker john boehner and his leadership team, that that is something that harry reid will eventually swallow, that he will be under pressure from those red state democrats that luke referred to. he'll want to repeal the medical device tax and that could be the makings of the deal. that all depends on the response of ted cruz and the people in the house that he's working with. >> senator, you represented arkansas during that government shutdown, '95-'96. those shutdowns had federal agencies closed for about 28 days. how was the impact felt by the voters? >> they were angry. it was frustrating. it was complications in their lives that they didn't need. and you're exactly right, with

federal employees, whether it was national parks and other things, it was just total confusion and chaos. and it was so unnecessary. that's why i say right now, i can't believe that they're even considering going towards a government shutdown because it's so unproductive at a time when we need to be more focused on looking for, as bill schneider would understand, the third way of how do we fix these problems, how do we come together and find the solutions, whether it's to fixing our debt or making sure that people get health care and we bring down the cost of it. so i think it just causes frustration among voters and constituents out there all across the land, whether it's in arkansas or anywhere else. >> here's the thing, bill. we're talking about the government -- the looming potential government shutdown now. fast forward a week or two and we're going to be talking about the debt ceiling. we're going to be talking about more theatrics as well. at what point do people take to the streets, bill schneider?

>> well, i'm not sure they'll take to the streets immediately. they'll get really angry. remember that there are about 80 members of the house who come from districts that are really one-party districts. they're not worried about democrats. they're not going to lose their seats except if they're challenged in a primary. and if they don't stand up and demand the shutdown, they could be challenged in a primary. that's what's really different between now and 1995. they don't expect to pay a political cost for a shutdown because all their constituents are -- almost all of their constituents are thoroughly in favor of this. >> if we had more time, we'd talk about it. but we don't. bill, a.b. and blanche, a big thanks to all of you. up next, behind closed doors on capitol hill for some details on last-minute negotiations. republican congressman standing by. he's going to join me live from the hill in just a few moments. also, long overdue.

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as we continue to watch developments on capitol hill, let's go ahead and take a quick look at some of the other top headlines on this saturday afternoon. the u.n. security council has unanimously adopted a resolution to secure and destroy syria's stockpile of chemical weapons. it mandates that the u.n. inspectors get access to those

weapons. if syria does not comply, the resolution opens the door to potential military action. iranian president hassan rowhani is back in tehran after his historic phone conversation with president obama. there's already been pushback on that gesture. congressman mike rogers is urging caution on any deal that would relax sanctions on the iranian government. we'll go live to tehran in our next hour. meanwhile, back here, the battle over same-sex marriage is headed to new jersey's highest court. governor chris christie's office says he will be appealing a state judge's order to allow same-sex marriages in the state starting october 21st. we go back to capitol hill now where lawmakers once again in a rare weekend session. they are trying to hash out a proposed plan to fund the government. a live look there on the floor. the house is set to vote later today to fund the government until december 15th and also

delay the implementation of obama care by one year. republican florida congressman trey radel joins me live now. we know it's a busy day. we appreciate you carving out a few moments for us. take us behind closed doors. what's happening right now and what's the likelihood that you guys are going to be able to hammer out a plan and keep the government from shutting down? >> sure. we're here and we're working and doing what the american people want, which is to keep the government open, fund government and as much as i would like to defund and repeal obama care, we have compromised and we said, you know what, mr. president, you have already delayed obama care for big business, for wall street corporations in this country, why can't you just delay it for you, the hard-working american taxpayer. >> what's gained by delaying implementation for a year? >> well, i think the economy can begin to function. what happens, there's a political part to this -- >> there's a political part to the whole thing. >> yes. and what's going to happen is

we're going to win the senate and we're then going to be able to do what's best for the american people which is to get rid of this law. >> that's what it's about? you said it. kicking the can down the road for a year to buy yourself some time to win it to repeal it. it's about politics, not about actually keeping the government open? >> no, it is about doing what the american people want. a majority of americans do not want this law. it is unworkable. if it's unworkable, let's delay it a year. >> a greater majority want to see the government continue to function properly, sir. you would concede that. >> and, craig, that is why the ball is not in my court anymore. today we're going to pass this legislation. if the ball is in harry reid's court, the government shutdown rides on him. we're doing the right thing. we're here working. we're going to pass this bill. we're going to keep government open and delay obama care for a year. that is our compromise. >> this is a bill that's going to go to the senate next. senator ted cruz, a friend of yours, got a great deal of attention this week for that talk-a-thon.

this is how he described his mission yesterday. take a listen. >> it is not easy to disagree with your political party. but at the end of the day, what we're doing here is bigger than partisan politics. what we're doing here is fighting for 300 million americans across this great country. >> do you agree with the tactics that the senator employed this week? >> look, man, i'm eight months here in the united states house of representatives. i'm dealing with what is right for the american people here on our side of things. what the senate does, we'll see. they are going to go and demagogue and all these things. but it's just -- >> you concede that it was demagoguery? >> look, i'm a republican but i'm just as frustrated with republicans and democrats. i don't like being in this position. i don't want to be in this position. but i'm a member of the united states congress. i'm held accountable to what the american people want.

that is what the house of representatives is doing today. what the american people want. but let's think about this for a second. harry reid and the president are basically saying they're not going to negotiate on anything at all. we're the ones compromising. >> congresswomman, there are a of folks in this country who say, why shouldn't they compromise when not only did they pass obama care, the supreme court signed off on it, there was a subsequent election -- clearly america -- at some point, it has to be water under the bridge. at some point it's settled law and at some point -- go ahead, go ahead. >> why can the president pick and choose parts of obama care that he likes or doesn't like, repeal it, delay it, alter it. but when we ask for something, something as simple as a delay for a year, why is that a problem? >> you just conceded you weren't asking for the delay for a year to improve obama care. you were asking for the delay in the hopes that you guys would win the senate and that you could -- you said that. >> no.

you've got to allow me to finish the answer here, too. if we can improve parts of obama care, i'm open to it. i work with democrats every day. my door is open to people from all walks of life. if they have policy suggestions or suggestions on obama care to fix it, to make it fair and right for the american people, my door is open. i get along with people. >> i know. you're a very likable fellow. >> why are you putting this on harry reid's lap? it's him. >> why attach obama care to the continuing resolution to fund the government in the first place? >> okay. this is how things are done. >> no, this is not how things have to be done, congressman. you can concede that. >> under bill clinton, under both bushes, under president reagan, this is democracy. it is not pretty. it's sometimes ugly. you push, you pull, you compromise, you negotiate and you come to an end where hopefully we'll do what the american people are asking,

which, again, keeps government open, delay this thing for a year, fix it where it needs to be fixed. >> congressman trey radel, i appreciate the fact that you'll come on. keep us posted on what's happening down there. we may be on for a while this evening. we encourage you to come back with an update. >> thank you. >> thank you. the curse of the lottery has apparently struck wild willie. you remember him? the powerball jackpot winner. says he wants his old life back. he says since he won, quote, the drama is nonstop. however, we should note he's not going as far as giving up his share of that prize. he's still holding onto hopes that he shared with matt lauer the day after he won. >> i'd just like to disappear in the woods and hunt and fish every day. >> do what you want to do. >> exactly. i can do what i want to do. we can do what we want to do. [ male announcer ] if you suffer from a dry mouth

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his face and name are everywhere, from our money to our cities even a national monument. but one thing george washington did not have until now, a presidential library. incomes's chuck todd explains. >> reporter: this building behind me, it took some 200 years to finally get built, george washington, after he left his presidency, wrote a letter to a friend and said, the last thing he wanted to do was build a house for his papers. well, finally 216 years later, you can now visit the george washington presidential library. he's a bridge, a university, a city, even money. but while he's everywhere in our lives, many americans, even at the foot of the washington monument, no very little about him. >> always talk about george washington cutting down the cherry tree. >> the wooden teeth that couldn't tell a lie. i think that was him. >> house at mt. vernon. >> reporter: now on the grounds

of his home at mt. vernon, a place to fill in the blanks. our first president, the last to have a presidential library. >> at the time of his death, there was an inventory of his books, roughly 900 volumes. today we have 650 of the volumes and we're continuing to collect them. >> but that wasn't clear to anyone. >> reporter: library director took me into the rare unlike mo libraries, you won't find a wing for the first first lady because martha washington burned almost every letter she received from her husband. though this library has rescued a few. >> i retain an unalterable affection for you which neither time nor distance can bridge. >> reporter: so just a love letter. >> i might copy that. >> reporter: we're 14 miles from the capital, which feels like a lifetime away but only 14 miles

away from that mess on capitol hill. so all the chatter at the library dedication has been about, how would the more nonpartisan george washington handled the more partisan and ideological nature of today's washington. >> chuck, todd, thank you. coming up, we'll get a check on the rollout of obama care from the administration. also, honoring a teenager's final wish. how one family's act of kindness is inspiring the world to pay it forward. this is msnbc. get paid to do something you really love, what would you do?" ♪ [ woman ] i'd be a writer. [ man ] i'd be a baker. [ woman ] i wanna be a pie maker. [ man ] i wanna be a pilot. [ woman ] i'd be an architect. what if i told you someone could pay you and what if that person were you? ♪ when you think about it, isn't that what retirement should be, paying ourselves to do what we love? ♪

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it's a lot to keep track of and a lot of folks still have a lot of questions about it. anton gunn is the director of external affairs for the department of health and human services. good to see you, sir. >> good to see you, craig. >> according to a recent poll by the kaiser family foundation, just 15% of the general public knows these insurance exchanges are opening in just a few days. simple question here, why don't more people know how to enroll and when it's rolling out? >> the main point of that is that people are now starting to understand that options are becoming available. there's been a lot of conversation about the affordable care act before today. on october 1st, no matter who you are, where you live in america, what state you're in, you'll be able to go to healthcare.gov and find out the help options available to you for you to get quality, affordable health insurance coverage for your family. before now, if you had a pre-existing condition, you could be discriminated against.

but now that all goes away thanks to the affordable care act. we're looking forward to october 1st and people finding out about health insurance options for themselves and their families. >> texas refusing to expand the medicaid program specifically. all the governors in those starts are republicans. how has the refusal to expand medicaid specifically in those states affected implementation at all and do you think it's going to have some sort of effect in the future? >> here's what we say. governors all across the country and state legislatures are now starting to realize that they want to do a better job of getting folks covered in those states. whether you're talking about arkansas, kentucky, talking about michigan, even pennsylvania recently has started to have the conversation about how we can provide more coverage for people. but the beautiful thing is that h.h.s. is working very closely with all the states to make sure the citizens in those states are aware of their options. if you live in texas, florida, california -- >> but all those states

aren't -- governors in some states have said, hell can freeze over. we're not expanding medicaid. in our state, in south carolina, they're not expanding -- they've said they're not going to expand medicaid. >> it doesn't mean people in those states won't have options. there are people eligible for medicaid and don't even know it. that's why we want people to go to healthcare.gov and see what their options are. people may not be eligible for medicaid but they could be eligible for a subsidy to help them pay for private insurance. go to healthcare.gov and see what you're qualified for. lots of people qualify for lots of things available to them. we want them to know that these options are there for them and we continue to work with states. we're offering flexibility to states who want to cover people in their states. we're doing that in arkansas, many michigan and many other states. we want to make sure people know they can go to healthcare.gov and get their questions answered

about health insurance coverage for them and their families. >> i want to bring up something congressman trey radel brought up a few moments ago, some of the delays in launching obama care or the affordable care act, depending on the language you choose to use. how is the administration going to be dealing with those delays and what's behind the delays? >> the whole point is no matter what a product is, if you look at the apple iphone or the operating system 7 that just came out, there are glitches. but it's about what you want to do to make the change. we're working hard to refine the process, improve the process for people to enroll in coverage. but on october 1st, you can go to healthcare.gov and see what options are available to you. we want to continue to improve this process. the more feedback we get from consumers and states, we can continue to make this process better to make sure that everybody can get affordable health insurance coverage that meets their needs and that fit

in their budget. that's the most important thing people need to do, figure out what works for you and take a look at it. >> anton gunn, good to see you, sir. >> good to see you, thanks. with more now on the messaging and the troubleshooting efforts by the administration, the perception as well, may, let me start with you. what's the biggest misperception that you are seeing on how the health care law will be implemented? >> well, i don't even know if i could name the biggest. i was out in the middle of the country talking to folks in some red states like the ones that you were mentioning where they're really fighting the law and the amount of rumor that is flying around just out in the general public about the law is unbelievable. there's people talking about how

it might affect their food stamps coming in. there are the poorest of the poor saying they won't be able to pay for it. there's tons of misinformation out there and especially in these states where the governors are fighting it, you don't even see a public education campaign yet. it took me four days in oklahoma before i even saw a brochure for the health care law. there's no billboards. there's nobody letting them know it's coming. all the navr gigators are still being trained. so people are hearing talk on talk radio or on television stations and there's just mass confusion about the law in those parts of the country. >> perry, you've spent some time in one of the states that maeve mentioned, in kentucky. seems like the name obama care in and of itself has been enough to confuse folks very simply. in your reporting on the ground in kentucky where obama care is being called kynect, the

president joked about it. >> some folks in kentucky were signing people up at a county fair somewhere and some guy goes up and he starts looking at the rates and decides he's going to sign up and he turns to his friend and said, this is a great deal. this is a lot better than obama care. >> 46%, there it is right there, cnbc poll. 46% of the respondents oppose obama care. 37% oppose the affordable health care act. they are, of course, the same thing for folks who might be confused themselves. perry, was it a mistake for the administration to embrace that term obama care? >> it may have been. i'll tell you one thing, one of the biggest misconceptions is the law is still not law. a woman asked me, is it really law? she's wondering, defund this, oppose this -- she's still confused by that part of it as well. people don't know the law is in effect at this point.

that's one of the biggest challenges. but i do think in these states, i went to georgia and kentucky and i followed around people who were actually implementing the law and actually talking about it. and they never used the phrase obama care. you go to california where maeve is, they call their program covered california. in georgia, they have a program called enroll america they're working with. their strategy basically is, if we don't use the phrase obama care, we will avoid getting into a conversation. i saw people talk about health care saying, my cousin has a pre-existing condition, my father has high blood pressure, what can i do about it? >> maeve, you wrote about how the white house is trying to solicit help from famous friends. who's gotten on board and what are they doing?

>> you remember earlier this summer the white house brought in a lot of different artists and directors. you had amy poehler, jennifer hudson, a lot of people around a table that wanted to strategize with the administration about how to get the word out to this critical demographic, the 18 to 35-year-olds that the obama administration needs to sign up for coverage in order to make the broader law work. so you have production companies like funny or die out here in california that get an amazing number of eyeballs who are working on as many as 20 projects to sort of get that younger generation focused on the law, focused on the exchanges, trying to explain it in a funny and understandable way in order to bring people in and make it seem like a more popular concept among that group. >> maeve, perry, always a big thanks to both of you. >> thanks so much. time now to flash back to

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18-year-old alisa o'neal died from an epileptic seizure earlier this month. her parents found a unique way to honor her life and it's now taken on a life of its own. jason and sarah o'neal, good to see you. so sorry for your loss. >> thank you. >> thank you very much. >> sarah, this whole thing started with coffee and a hashtag. walk us through it. >> the night before my daughter passed away, she had found out that the pumpkin spice lattes were coming out at starbucks and she hadn't gotten a chance to try one yet. and she sent me a text that said, can you take me to get one before school tomorrow? and she knows that i'm a big fan of anything pumpkin. so i said, sure, we can do that tomorrow before class. we didn't get the chance to do that. she passed the next morning.

>> jason, i understand that you bought 40 lattes for complete strangers. what was the reaction? onchts we >> well, we did that because alyssa wasn't going to have a chance to get one so we wanted people to experience something she wanted to have. and the reaction was pretty overwhelming from the start. the managers at the store were really helpful about it. they went and talked to their other managers and all of the employees at that store donated the drinks that they received during their shift. so it turned into 90. and it has just really gone way farther than we ever thought it would at that point. >> in fact, your own senator, bob casey, he tweeted this picture saying, quote, honoring alyssa and raising epilepsy awareness from capitol hill. how wide has this thing gone? how widely has it spread? >> it's spread pretty wide, from

famous people and senators tweeting about it to we've been getting pictures from all over the world, australia, china, iceland, sri lanka. >> seoul, korea. >> seoul, south korea. >> mexico. you name it, we've seen it. the troops in afghanistan. it's been awesome. >> i'm glad you mentioned that because we've got one of these from afghanistan as well. this one right there, there you see it. not only spreading coffee cups. this is from one girl -- one little girl who tweeted that picture of a group of soldiers with a sign that reads hashtag. how has all of this helped you in the grieving process? >> it makes us feel so much better. the first few days after she passed away so suddenly, we do what most parents do.

we laid in our bed and cried and thought, how are we going to get through this, what are we going to do now? and i just looked at him one morning and i said, i can't do this anymore, i don't want to feel like this, i want to go and feel better. let's do something to feel better. and that's where our idea started. and when we went to starbucks and we just asked them to put the ajo on the cup just in hopes that someone might look her up and learn a little bit more about epilepsy might put a smile on their face remembering our daughter. and that's really all we wanted from it from the beginning was just maybe to make a couple of people happy and spread the awareness about epilepsy. >> your tragedy has turned into a movement. so sorry for your loss, but thank you for what you are doing. sarah and jason o'neill. folks, if you've got a big idea and you feel that that idea is making a big difference, we'd love to hear from you. there's the information on your screen.

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after five months of emotional and at times con tense shs testimony, the jury in the michael jackson wrongful death case now has the case. deliberations will resume

monday. gina kim bringing us up to speed. >> are you going to let them get away with this? >> reporter: the jackson family attorney waged all-out war against aeg live with his final words to the jury, labeling the concert promoter's top executives as greedy, manipulative liars who repeatedly refer to michael jackson as a freak. >> they don't care. they don't care about the person. they don't care about the individual. all they care is how much money is this freak going to make for them. that's what they're all about. >> reporter: at issue in the civil trial is who lihired dr. conrad murray who is in the prison for the singer's overdose death from propofol. smoking guns e-mails and interviews were displayed from aeg live executives that appear to show murray was a company hire. aeg live's lead attorney said the company never even entered into a contract with murray. marvin putnam argued that jackson hired murray directly

after shopping around for doctors he could control. putnam said aeg live couldn't have known what jackson was doing in his private home and what's more, the singer was already on a self-destructive path. >> the sad truth here is mr. jackson's death was caused by his choices, and it would have happened no matter what, with or without aeg live. >> reporter: now the case is in the hands of the jury, which must decide if aeg live should pay damages that could exceed $1 billion. >> that was nbc's gina kim report. msnbc legal analyst, lisa bloom, has been following the courtroom drama. she's here in new york with me. first of all, you've been watching this case closely. did the attorney for the jackson family -- did he make the case that aeg was negligent in hiring dr. conrad murray? >> this is a very hard case, i think, for the plaintiffs to prove, for the family members of the jacksons to prove because they have to show that aeg is responsible for conrad murray.

so he's the hot potato in the case. we know that he caused michael jackson's death. lease already been found criminally responsible for that. now we're taking a step back saying, who is responsible for dr. murray? is it aeg, yes, they paid him but they didn't supervise him on a daily basis. they didn't have a contract with him. this big company did not have a contract, how, i don't know. but michael jackson was the one that selected him and worked with him on a daily basis. >> sounds like you don't think they made that case. >> i'm not going to call plaintiffs or defendant. but i think it's a very tough call for the jury. by the way, that's the $1 billion question. >> yet that seems like -- how do they arrive at that $1 billion figure? that's an eye-popping sum. >> one thing we know about michael jackson is he was an earner. he certainly had the capacity to make a lot of money. there's no question that upon his death, the family lost out on a lot of money he would have made over the years. aeg says, wait a second, he was $400 million in debt at the time of his death. even if he had made hundreds of

millions of dollars from this concert tour, that would have all gone to debt. it wouldn't have gone to the family. they think the number should be a lot lower if the plaintiffs win. >> the testimony by the family was at times quite emotional. how does that kind of testimony play in a case like this? will it have a tremendous effect? >> i think it will have an effect, especially prince jackson, 16 years old now, michael jackson's son who talked in emotional terms about the day that he learned that his father had died, how devastating it was for him. but the whole family, they heard about paris jackson being suicidal earlier this year as a result of losing her father. she's never gotten over it. katherine jackson, over 80 years old, talking emotionally about her sweet little boy. this is her son. he's the most famous artist in all the world to us. but this is about a family. >> quite a few revelations revealed in this case, five months, by the way, including details of the singer's drug use and how he doctor shopped as well.

are those going to be things that ultimately affect his legacy or are a lot of the things we heard in court things we knew anyway? >> i think we knew but we didn't know as much as he learned in this trial. ten years of using propofol according to his ex-wife, she said she warned him years ago that it could kill him. and he said, i just need to sleep, i need it. he was begging for it. i also think that helps aeg. aeg's position is he was a drug addi addict. this is very sad but he was going to get this one way or another. he was addicted to propofol years before we came into the picture. >> lisa bloom, thank you for your insight and analysis. up next, our coverage continues of the looming government shutdown, a big vote is scheduled to happen in just a bit on capitol hill. we'll go live to capitol hill for the very latest straight ahead. we've been bringing people together. today, we'd like people to come together on something that concerns all of us. obesity.

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good saturday afternoon to you. i'm craig melvin. you're watching msnbc. right now, the republican controlled house is in a rare saturday session. they are preparing to vote on a new plan that pushes the country closer to a shutdown. is there anything that can stop the costly move? >> this was the first communications between an american and iranian president since 1979. >> also diplomatic breakthrough, what led to that surprising phone call between president obama and iran's new president? we are live in iran with reaction. also ahead, fast food versus good food, the newest player in the fight to bring healthy foods to america's struggling neighborhoods. and get your motors running. the once-in-a-lifetime auction revving up classic car enthusiasts by the thousands. all those stories in just a moment. first, let's start with the developing story on capitol hill. republicans are planning to vote in just a bit on a bill that

would delay obama care for one year. they're going to send that bill back to the senate two days before a possible government shutdown. nbc's luke russert has been following the drama for us all day. first of all, luke, over the past hour, since we checked in with you last, any updates? >> reporter: the main update is that aides over on the senate side close to democratic leadership have officially said that the senate will not take up this bill once it's passed out of the house, presumably they would actually move to table it to outright reject the bill if they wanted to. what's interesting, though, here is you see this republican option that's gained steam. the outside conservative groups that have been aligned with ted cruz have had such an outspoken role in this debate so far. right now, they seem -- they're going to go along with this plan. they're comfortable with it. it's a plan to delay the health

care law, permanent delay on medical devices and to make sure the troops get their pay if the government shuts down. all this does is messes with the calendar. come monday at midnight, the government will shut down. the senate will not take up this plan. they're going to reject it. the house is now saying, the leadership over here, we've done our job, we've figured out a way to fund the government. this is divided government. what we're going to see now is this standoff. and it's up to anyone's idea -- anyone's guess how long this goes forward. aides on both sides are now speculating that you are very close to a guaranteed shutdown right now from where we stand, unless something miraculous happens over the next few days. and after that, it becomes, at what point does john boehner want to pass a clean government funding bill with democratic help? that's the only thing that harry reid is going to take. at what point does boehner do

that? until that decision is made, we're constantly in this standoff. >> luke russert on capitol hill -- >> reporter: that's a tremendous necktie, by the way. it's saturday, i have to give you credit for that. >> i appreciate that, thank you so much. luke, we'll have to have you back frequently. while republicans hashed out their plan behind closed doors as we heard from luke, democratic members of congress are speaking on the floor. earlier today, new york's representative, louise slaughter, called on the gop to, in her words, stop the madness. >> but it's time for this temper tantrum, mr. speaker, to end, for cooler heads to prevail. there must be some cooler heads here on the other side. with time running out, the majority has to act to keep this government open and try to get this economy on track. the american people must be spared from the consequences of a majority that cannot find the will or the ability to legislate.

>> and that was before republicans even announced their plan. joining me live now, democratic congresswoman karen bass of california. what are y'all doing? >> don't ask me what we're doing. we're waiting for the republicans to put forward their effort again to try to delay health care reform. why they don't want the american people to have health coverage, i have no idea. sometimes i think that the republican caucus must be like a football locker room where they get themselves all ginned up. there's no physical release of a game and they don't know how to wind back down. and the bottom line is that winding back down means doing the adult thing to do, which is passing a clean c.r. i think we're destined for a shutdown at this point. >> a shutdown is imminent? >> unfortunately, i just don't see a way out of it if we are going to pass a bill that harry reid has already said is dead on arrival, what is the purpose of

what we're doing, except for to give the right wing an exercise? the bottom line is that speaker boehner has not taken control of his caucus and he's allowed the 40 to r50 extremists to rule the day. and i think it's just a shame. >> congresswoman, talk to me a little bit about the mood right now on the hill. are you guys -- are you talking to each other? are democrats and republicans even engaging in the old-fashioned art of conversation right now? >> we see each other on the floor when we vote. but the bottom line of this is this is about a republican conflict. this is internal to their caucus. if speaker boehner would walk over to leader pelosi right now and say, okay, let's just put our votes together, however many votes you can get, however many votes i can get and put that clean c.r. on the table, we would be out of here in a few hours because i know that there's enough democratic votes. he needs to piece the votes together. but the bottom line is, he's allowed 40 or 50 people to hold

him hostage and they're holding the rest of the country hostage. it's really pathetic. >> if there is a shutdown, how long do you expect it will last? >> i'm hoping that after these guys go through this exercise and maybe get it out of their system, that there will be some adults in the room that are able to say, okay, let's just get this done. you've had your effort. you've played long enough. now let's go back to the business of the country. i'm hoping that a shutdown doesn't happen, that cooler heads prevail. but let's just say it does. i'm hoping it will only last a couple of days and that the adults will speak up. >> there are some who are already suggesting that if there is or when there is this imminent government shutdown that politically your party will benefit, the democrats will benefit come 2014. what say you to that? >> who knows? 2014 is a long way away. to me, this is object our country. this is about jobs. this is about health care. we're the most industrialized

nation on the planet and we have figured out how to provide health care for our people. so why my republican colleagues do not want people to have health care is just beside me, i just don't understand it. >> when you leave this interview, you'll go back and do what? where do you go from here? >> i'm going back to my office. i'm working. i have plenty to do. and i'll be waiting until they call the vote. so we're all here. we're either on the capitol or right nearby. and we're just waiting to know when they will call the vote. it could be that they don't even have the 217 votes for their own bill. who knows? we've been through that several times before where we sit around. they say they're going to call a vote and then ultimately they wind up adjourning because they can't even pull it together. but make no mistake, this is about the republican versus republicans. this is not about republicans versus democrats. >> something else lost in this, even the bills being considered right now, the senate bill would fund the government through mid november.

the house bill would fund it through mid december. no one's talking about a budget bill to fund the government for the next year. there's a novel concept. >> it is a novel concept. we haven't even passed all the appropriations bills. so it's just about how do we kick the can down the road. that's why we're doing the continuing resolution. let me tell you, for the two years that i've been here, the speaker and the republicans kept telling the senate to pass a budget. the senate passed that budget. the house passed a budget. now the next step is a conference committee. but speaker boehner can't even get his caucus to allow him to pull a conference committee together. if you even think about it, if you remember the day after the election in november, speaker boehner said the public has spoken. health care is the law. the supreme court has already ruled. and he had to pull that back after about 30 minutes. he says something. his caucus yanks him back and he has to go back on it. so we really should be able to pass a budget. we should be able to call a

conference committee. but he's not allowed to lead. >> california democratic congresswoman karen bass on a saturday afternoon, good to -- it's not good to see you on a saturday afternoon. i take that back. thank you, congresswoman. >> i understand. >> i appreciate your time. up next, the new face in the fight to get americans eating healthier. buff is it the right recipe? i will not negotiate on anything when it comes to the full faith and credit of the united states of america. >> now, the president says, i'm not going to negotiate. well, i'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way. >> there's another crisis coming, too. credit crunch. what happens if congress doesn't raise the debt ceiling? we'll break down the costs even if we manage to avoid default, which doesn't look like -- looks like that's a 50/50 shot at this point. this is msnbc. ♪ [ male announcer ] some question physics.

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. we are continuing to watch developments on capitol hill where house republicans are expected to vote on a plan to fund the government. we'll get to that in just a moment. right now, let's get to other top headlines at this hour. that new abortion law in texas which led to a marathon filibuster by state senator wendy davis is headed to court now. planned parenthood and other women's and civil liberties groups filed a federal lawsuit against provisions in the law that place new restrictions on clinics that provide abortions. investigations into the deaths of 19 arizona firefighters finds a list of problems stemming from inadequate radio communication. the men died while battling a blaze in yarnell, arizona, this june. experts released the report just hours ago. they cite improperly programmed

radios, vague updates and a three-minute communication blackout just before the men were engulfed by the flames. the united nations security council signs off on a resolution to secure and destroy syria's stockpile of chemical weapons. the resolution mandates that u.n. inspectors get access to those weapons. if they do not, the resolution opens the door to potential military action. heirloom tomatoes to struggling americans might be the right recipe to feed the underserved. in the latest effort to get fresh and healthy foods to areas of the country known as food deserts, the whole foods chain is going to open a store in a poor neighborhood in chicago. that map is very important. take a long, hard look at it. the term food desert is used to describe neighborhoods where there are few if any markets to buy fresh and nutritious food at

a reasonable price. the green on the map are those neighborhoods. the department of agriculture has identified more than 6,500 food deserts all over this country and nearly all of them are in poor urban and rural areas. mary gallagher is a food policy expert. danielle nearenberg is the founder of the food tank. mary, your research coined the term food desert. you started looking at urban areas of chicago. what did you find? >> happy to be on the show. what we found is that there are many residents, not just in chicago but all across the country who because of their food environment have other health risks. and we found a very stark problem in chicago in 2006. over 630,000 such residents living in these places where it's very hard to find nutritious food. >> danielle, actor wendell

pierce was a guest on our program. he's involved in getting supermarket chain to an underserved part of new orleans. take a listen to a bit of what he said. >> how are you going to get them to make those good choices instead of the bad choices? i say before you can do that, they have to have the ability to make a choice. to have the access. and that's what food justice is really all about. just a decent grocery store. >> food justice. wendell used that term. it was the first time i'd heard it. does there need to be more than a grassroots effort to make sure that people have access to quality foods at reasonable prices? >> absolutely, craig. we need more of a system where people cannot just have access to the food, but also be able to afford it. and the good work that mari's done and other advocates across the country is really helping make food more accessible and affordable to residents countrywide. >> we saw this recent report on

food waste, this u.n. report. it found that the united states wastes up to 40% of the food in this country. i think a lot of folks see that figure and they hear that figure and they just wonder, is it our country's food system that's broken? if we're producing so much food, how is it that we're not able to get that food to the people who need it most? where's the breakdown? >> there are a couple of different reasons. most of the food waste that happens in the united states happens on the consumer and retail side. we're buying too much at big box stores. we're not taking home leftovers because we lost our culinary skills. we've forgotten how to cook, so we cook too much. a lot needs to be done to encourage both retailers and consumers to make better food choices and waste less. >> mari, whole foods says its new chicago store will have affordable prices. the chain has already opened one in detroit although it's in an

area that's been gentryfied. will these stay in low income neighborhoods for the long haul? >> i think they will. we did work in detroit before the whole foods went in. it's doing very well. we'll see what happens in chicago. but retail attracts retail. when you have neighborhoods speckled with lower end stores, they attract more of the same even though consumers might want better stores. so i think the englewood community where this store is going in will be pleased with it. i hope it does well. i think it will. >> big thanks to both of you. appreciate your time, mari and danielle. danielle, quickly, what's the name of your blog? it's a great service. what is it again? >> it's foodtank.org. >> it's a fantastic read. i'll try to tweet it later. thank you both for your time. >> thank you. it's a field of dreams for car fanatics.

thousands of people are converging on pierce, nebraska, today for a one-of-a-kind public auction, a chance to bid on these classic cars. the cars date back to the '50s, '60s and '70s. they were on sale back in the day. but when the owners closed their doors 17 years ago, those cars, believe it or not, were left behind. thanks to mr. lambrecht holding on to his inventory, a lucky person can soon park one of those in their garage. >> he loved to sell cars. he wanted them to buy the latest, greatest chevrolet model. and so i believe that that is part of the reason why he would hold back old inventory.

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ceiling. i want to bring in heather boucher from the center for american progress. always good to see you, heather. which is the worse of the two -- failure to raise the debt ceiling or a government shutdown? >> well, quite frankly, both are bad. both would be bad for the economy moving forward. our economy is too fragile. we shouldn't be holding the economy hostage right now and we shouldn't shut down the government and move up against the debt ceiling. however, having said that, in the grand scheme of things, the cost of running up against the debt ceiling and not raising it are potentially far greater than a short-term government shutdown. remains to be seen whether or not the government shuts down and how long it is. but if it's brief, it wouldn't be nearly as bad as the estimated cost of not raising the debt ceiling. >> president obama's been adamant about the need to raise the debt ceiling with no strings attached, we should note. this is what he said thursday.

>> i will not negotiate on anything when it comes to the full faith and credit of the united states of america. >> why is the president so unwilling to negotiate over the debt limit? >> we've been down this road before. back in august of 2011, the republicans threatened to not raise the debt ceiling and we know that it cost the treasury over $1.3 billion, according to the government accountability office. this is not a good step for our economy. it's not a good step for america. in august of 2011, the government debt was downgraded for the first time in u.s. history. and so the president is saying, hey, this is a really important economic issue and we shouldn't be fooling around with it. we need to raise the debt ceiling as we have many times before. we've already allocated that spending and now we have to just continue to allow the government to borrow in order to maintain the spending that congress has already approved. >> the visible shutdown, the

visible effects of a shutdown would be clear. in fact, there was this tweet from the smithsonian explaining precisely what would be closed. but here's the thing. the results of a default could be more subtle. in the simplest of terms, how would a government shutdown affect john j. sixpack? >> if we get close to not raising the debt ceiling, the cost of borrowing would be increased. we saw it back in august of 2011. he might have to pay a higher interest rate for a mortgage or new car or new washing machine or his employer would have to pay more in interest to borrow money to bring on new staff. so that's probably the first and most obvious. another way that we're likely to see it is in global markets and in the stock market. so it could affect john q. public's 401(k) plan or it might affect the decisions that his employer makes about how much

hiring to do in the short term. these are all ways that could effect every one of us. >> heather, thank you so much for breaking that down and explaining it in a way that people can understand. do appreciate your time. >> thank you. up next, protesting the miss world pageant. the harsh words that forced it to relocate hundreds of miles away. and we'll also go inside iran for reaction to that historic phone call between our president and their president. we'll go live to tehran right after this. you're watching msnbc. ♪ [ male announcer ] now, taking care of things at home is just a tap away. ♪ introducing at&t digital life... ♪ ...personalized home security and automation... [ lock clicks ] ...that lets you be closer to home. that's so cool. [ male announcer ] get $100 in instant savings when you order digital life smart security. limited availability in select markets.

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major protests this weekend outside the miss world pageant in indonesia. originally that pageant was supposed to be in jakarta. but it was moved to bali when hardline muslim groups threatened to hijack the event saying the pageant was immoral and pornographic. today it went off without a hitch. the contestant from the philippines took home the crown. and malala received a humanitarian award from harvard on friday. thursday, she accepted a global citizen award from the clinton global initiative. and week on the links for former president george w. bush. xliii hosting the warrior open golf tournament for wounded veterans in dallas. the three-day tournament is wrapping up today. it honors service members who were injured in the war on terror.

it was a surprise heard around the world. the historic phone call yesterday between president obama and iran's president, hassan rowhani. it was the first time that the leaders of the two countries have talked in more than 30 years. that phone call, again, it happened yesterday evening from the white house. brain trust is here. let's get right to it. amy holmes with the hot list over at the blaze and new guy to the brain trust, zachary roth, one of our own msnbc.com reporters. thanks for sticking around as well. this was iran's president tweeting, of course, because that's what you do after you have a high-level phone call now. this is the tweet from iran's president yesterday after his chat with president obama. i think we have that tweet there. do we have the tweet? there it is right there. this was the tweet from mike rogers -- there's the tweet from

iran's president. it's a little tough for me to see. after historic phone conversation with barack obama, president rowhani in plane about to depart for tehran. do you see, first of all, any irony that you have the president of iran tweeting when most people in the country right now don't have access to twitter, don't have access to social media? >> of course that is ironic. i think actually that's one of the reasons why this kind of outreach is something we need to do or president obama certainly feels it's something we need to do. the more you engage with these kinds of regimes that are oppressive at home and encourage them to loosen up and adopt the kind of diplomemocratic policie freedom of the press we all want to see, it's a good thing. >> first time the leader of this country and that country have spoken since 1979. it is, by all accounts, a significant achievement or are we reading too much into it, amy

holmes? >> i think you have to look at what preceded it. that was president obama declaring to the world that he would love to have a sitdown with the president of iran. you had all these news reports, high-level white house officials eagerly anticipating this meeting and president rowhani rebuffed him. he just gave him the back of his hand and said, meeting with you is too much of a hassle. so he did consent to the phone call. but if you look at that twitter picture, it's of rowhani getting on a plane to leave. if anything, i think this is president rowhani using this as a propaganda victory with president obama, getting the first american president basically to come and have a conversation on his terms, not the terms of the president of the united states. >> it sounds like you think he's using us? >> and he published an op ed in "the washington post." basically we're seeing these world leaders who are savvy has exploiting president obama's weaknesses. >> is that how you see it, zach? >> i don't think we know enough about iranian domestic politics

to know how that plays there. one thing that's interesting to note and one way to see it is this has been since even before president obama ran for president, when he was in the senate, his key accomplishment was a bill that worked on nuclear proliferation issues with richard lugar. that was the main thing he did in the senate. this has always been a cause that's been near and dear to his heart. the first speech he gave overseas was on the subject. >> i want to bring in ali who's in iran. how has this phone call been received there? >> reporter: well, by and large the iranian people want better relations with the united states. i think iranian people like america. they appreciate america. people want a better relationship with them because they know it will make the economy better, sanctions will get removed and they'll have a

better lifestyle. it's funny, you have a small island just off the coast of iran that's a free trade zone. you can import any car that you like in there. every iranian living on that island drives an american car. also when president rowhani arrived at the airport today, the large majority of people there to greet him were greeting him with open arms because they thought he'd made some steps in rebuilding a relationship with the united states. but there was a hardline group of people that absolutely didn't want this to happen. and he was pelted with tomatoes, eggs and shoes as he arrived saying, you shouldn't be talking to the great satan. there is a divide in this country. but by and large, people want better relations with america because they like america and the country and because it will give them economic welfare here. >> did you say eggs, tomatoes and shoes? >> reporter: eggs, tomatoes and shoes were all pelted at his

convoy when he arrived by a very hardcore group of people that don't want relations with the united states. >> could president rowhani have had this type of conversation at all without at least the tacit approval of the ayatollah? >> reporter: more than that. he would have had to have a very deep conversation with the supreme leader to discuss what the parameters of the deal with the united states would be. i think the important thing here is not that mr. rowhani wants change, but how much change the supreme leader wants. i think they have a long relationship. they go back a long way. i think the supreme leader's given him a certain amount of leeway to make a deal as long as it doesn't change the nature of the islamic republic. the supreme leader doesn't want to see this country jumping into bed with the united states tomorrow. that's for sure. he doesn't want to change the nature of what the islamic republic is. on the 17th of september, the

supreme leader spoke about iran having to adopt heroic flexibility like a wrestler, which basically means to mr. rowhani, see what you can get from the americans but don't get too cozy with them. as we all know, a wrestler in a wrestling match, there are no ties. there has to be a winner. so his message was fairly clear, if you read between the lines. >> ali arouzi from tehran for us on a saturday, thank you so much. always appreciate your reporting, sir. we are going to take a quick break. when we come back, we'll spend some more time with the brain trust. also waiting on esther arma. she got stuck in traffic. she'll come back. we'll talk about what congress is doing or rather what congress is not doing, on the other side of this break. when we made our commitment to the gulf, bp had two big goals: help the gulf recover and learn from what happened so we could be a better, safer energy company.

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the brain trust is back.

zachary roth, amy holmes and esther armah. good to see you. let's talking about what's happening down in washington, d.c. we heard from luke russert the house is going to be voting in a short period of time on this new proposal. they'll send it back to the senate. apparently the senate's said, we're not even going to look at this thing. it appears as if a government shutdown is imminent. it looks like at this point the government is going to shut down monday night at midnight. this is republican trey radel from florida. i talked to him last hour. i want to play what he said and talk to you about it on the other side. here it is. >> i think the economy can begin to function. what happens, there's a political part to this, undoubtedly. >> there's a political part to the whole thing. >> yes. what's going to happen is we're going to win the senate and we're then going to be able to do what's best for the american people.

>> he was talking about that part of the plan is the one-year delay of obama care, the implementation of obama care. but then t a the end, i think he essentially admitted what this really is about for republicans on the hill, kicking the can down the road for a year, buying them some time, hoping that they win the upper chamber. am i reading too much into that or is that really what it's about? >> absolutely. the idea that this is not about playing politics as opposed to some fake notion that this is really about delaying the introduction of obama care because it doesn't serve the people isn't true. this is deja vu. it's just the rhetoric of republican politics, term two. we've been at this same moment again and again and again. and the question is really for me when it comes to the democrats, we need to be more creative about a strategy to deal with what is now a typical republican playbook politically. that's to hold the government hostage in order to ask for the kinds of demands that are ridiculous. obama care is law.

the democrats have failed to do a particularly good job of helping the people to understand how best they will be served by the law. so on the one hand, we're just frustrated by the inaction politically and the republican stance but also by the democrats' inaction around strategy. >> we heard from another lawmaker earlier this hour, congresswoman from california who indicated -- this has been widely reported as well. this is one of the rare instances in washington where this is not about republicans and democrats. this is about republicans and republicans. this is an existential fight inside the gop. and we're all just sort of forced to watch this fight play out. >> unfortunately, reagan's 11th command was, thou shalt not speak ill of a fellow republican." a lot of sinning going on on capitol hill of watching republicans attack one another. i think they've lost sight of that goal, of winning back the senate. if you looked at the vote in the senate, four vulnerable democrats voted to fund obama care.

they're all in tough reelection battles. republicans could win those seats. but because of this warfare that's spilled out into the public, i think there's a real danger. >> historically when the government shuts down, republicans get lamed for it. you indicated these four democrats who could potentially be in trouble. a lot of folks have said if there were a conversation had specifically about the medical device tax, if there were a conversation about the medical device tax outside all of this, there's a chance they could actually get that repealed. but now, to attach that to all of this, is that not just going to leave, again, john q. sixpack sitting in iowa annoyed with the gop? >> yeah. as you said, historically republicans get blamed. we went through this in 1995 when newt gingrich and his republican band did a similar thing, shut down the government. bill clinton stood firm and the end result was clinton benefited politically.

yeah, we're likely to see the same thing. and the other thing is -- that doesn't get as much attention, john boehner could actually end this thing right now by bringing it to a vote, as one of your previous guests mentioned. it would pass with democratic votes but his problem is, he'd probably lose his job over that. >> as a strategic point, a poll just came out by bloomberg on thursday that showed that 61% of those polled wan to see actually federal spending being cut as attached to the debt limit, which is another place where republicans could be having a debate where they have more of the politics on their side. >> that's the thing. even if you're talking about cutting spending, there hasn't been a legitimate proposal submitted this week that reforms entitlements. it's just, we don't like obama care. we don't like obama care, we're going to delay it by -- at least congressman radel admitted that it's really not about obama care, that it's really about buying us some time to win back the senate. the whole thing -- >> i think that's flawed thinking. >> it is flawed thinking.

but the trouble with this kind of addiction into warfare is that you lose sight of ways the people would back you if you got to grip with some of the details of the actual legislation. because of the degree to which the republicans are so insular thinking, it's about elements of the base and the establishment being pitted against each other, you're losing sight of what it means in terms of the american people, 2014 and of course 2016. >> this is what we also -- i think we still have time for this. senator cruz this week, this 22-hour -- people who call it a filibuster are ignorant because it wasn't a filibuster. there was no legislation that he was trying to stop. it was a talk-a-thon. he went on for 22 1/2 hours. it was comical at best. but at worse, at times, i found myself watching it thinking, this is 'emblematic of what

washington has become. even his own buddies, his fellow gop-ers saying to him, dude, what are you doing? this is ridiculous. this is showmanship. i don't understand what was gained by that other than raising his profile. >> what i don't understand about all that was why republicans didn't cut a deal long before ted cruz got to the senate floor to say, we'll give you 21 hours to do this talk-a-thon -- >> to promote it on your website. >> to draw attention to the unpopularity of obama care. that repeal was passed in the senate with 79 votes. 33 democrats. bring attention to this without making it a battle between ted cruz and gop leadership. it's a democracy. you do get to speak. at the end of it, we'll have a vote. >> but it wasn't even that because it was really ted cruz taking a page out of the john edwards delusional, obsessed about me -- >> john edwards? >> yes. it's the idea that this is not about politics, not about policy

or legislation. it is the ted cruz show and we're all being forced to sit and watch it. >> whatever your politics, whether you're on the right or the left, that kind of demagoguery and the congressman from florida admitted as much earlier in the hour, that kind of demagoguery is emblematic of what's wrong with politics in washington. after the break, we'll come back and talk about something else. ooh, homemade soup! yeah... [ male announcer ] campbell's homestyle soup with farm grown veggies. just like yours. huh. [ male announcer ] and roasted white meat chicken. just like yours. [ male announcer ] you'll think it's homemade. i love this show. [ male announcer ] try campbell's homestyle soup. see, i knew testosterone could affect sex drive, but not energy or even my mood. that's when i talked with my doctor. he gave me some blood tests... showed it was low t. that's it. it was a number. [ male announcer ] today, men with low t have androgel 1.62% testosterone gel. the #1 prescribed topical testosterone replacement therapy increases testosterone when used daily.

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>> brain trust is back. zachary ruf, amy holmes and esther. what's your twitter handle, by the way? >> angry viewers can tweet me at the blaze hot list. i only started tweeting like three weeks ago. >> let's talk about the -- >> no comments about the hair. >> same here. let's talk about the debt. once this is over, and most

folks do think if there's a shutdown, it won't last more than a few days, but after this, we crawl to the next crisis, the debt limit, president obama saying he's not going to negotiate over this. does the president at this point have anything other than the bully pulpit? >> i think the president holds a lot of cards in this. he's made it clear he's not going to negotiate. it's going to be up to republicans to decide what they want to do about that. the issue with the debt limit, i think, it's interesting. we talk about the issue with the government shutdown as if this is a huge loser for republicans. but this is actually where it's not a loser, necessarily for republicans on the debt ceiling because boehner's going to give them so many goodies that his conservative base wants -- >> goodies like? >> like basically the

implementation of mitt romney's economic agenda in exchange for raising the debt limit. not clear what obama's response will be on that. >> regardless of your politics, you cannot deny that under ronald reagan, 17 or 18 times, the debt limit was raised, under every president after that, it's an exercise. it's what congress had done until now. >> well, and many times the opposition tried to attach their agenda to the debt ceiling, debt limit fight. as i mentioned in the previous segment, bloomberg came out with a poll showing 6 in 10 americans want to see spending cuts attached to the debt limit. we want to see that you're fiscally responsible -- >> the first part of what you said, i don't think anyone will deny -- it's difficult to argue

spending under the obama administration, when you consider per capita spending since eisenhower, it's the lowest it's been since eisenhower. that's fact. >> the american people say in this poll, even with the caveat that it means that we default on our debt, six in 10 still want to see spending cuts. it's smart for republicans to attack it because that's what the people want. >> here's the thing. the idea that the republicans are thinking about the fiscal responsibility and what people want, is nonsense. they're playing politics around specifically wanting to create a situation where obama is once again looks to fail. but the real price, people talk about the politics, but the price that is paid is the price

the people pay. it's how people's lives were affected, changed -- >> and also their faith in government. and also the continued battering -- because that's important. people should have faith. again, whatever your politics, people should have faith that the end of the day, the folks in washington are going to act in their best interest. >> should they have faith in an obama care program set to launch october 1st with all of those mistakes? >> oh, please! at some point -- [ all speak at once ] at some point, there has to be resolution. when the supreme court says go for it. >> what do you say to joe mansion who said he would support a delay because this is not ready to go, it is not ready for primetime. >> i say you tweak the program. you don't necessarily hold on the government hostage. >> delay on obama care? >> that's not tweaking the program.

>> one year delay -- >> when you have people who say that one year is about kicking the can down the road so they can improve their senate chances, that's playing politics. >> what the republicans are advocating as flaws as obama care is, and there's never any perfect legislation, the idea of about what's doing good for the people is an oxymoron and a contradiction. so to argue that one senator is calling for delay is to ignore the bigger issue as it relates to the people. there's no willingness to try the legislation -- >> you've been so polite. i'll give you the last word. >> thank you. amy suggested this was historically normal to attach budget considerations to these debt limit deals. that's not really the case. >> are you calling amy holmes a liar? >> there have been times when

that's happened, but never has one party decided to say we will hold the economy hostage unless you give us what we want. >> msnbc.com, very polite. thanks to you. house expecting to hold the vote any moment now. stay with us for special coverage throughout the night. i'll be back at 6:00 with the latest developments, but first "disrupt with karen finney." best-in-class rear legroom. and with a turbo engine that gets 35 hwy mpg. you know j.d. power ranked passat the most appealing midsize car two years in a row? i bet, uh, dan here wishes somebody found him most appealing two years in a row. ron: it's ron. jc: ron... exactly... vo: right now get the 2013 passat for 0% apr for 60 months with optional down payment match of up to $500. we got the ball rolling. in cities across the country, coca-cola joined with communities and local leaders to roll out a summer filled with activity.

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