continuing coverage of the shutdown showdown playing out in washington right now. it's 5:00 p.m. on a saturday afternoon. and the house remains in a rare weekend session. on the agenda, a vote within hours on a continuing resolution to fund the government past october 1st. don't expect the bill to prevent a shutdown, because the current version would delay the affordable care act for a year, which is a no-go in the democratic led statement. harry reid said, quote, the senate will reject any republican attempt to force changings to the affordable care act through a mandatory government funding bill or the debt ceiling. if that's the state of affairs, come monday at midnight, here's what could happen. things deemed essential like the military, public safety will not be affected. social security checks, those will keep coming. but about 1/3 of non-essential

employees could be sent home. irs helplines for taxpayerers could get shut down. and gates to more than 400 national parks would close to the public. i'm joined from capitol hill by eline of scrimmagea cummingku - scrimmage -- elijah. where do we think it will go from the vote? >> i think there will be a vote to add to the bill that came over from the senate, prosecutions to delay the affordable care act for at least a year and then there will be some other provisions with regards to certain device taxes, and then i think what they'll do, end up voting on that legislation tonight. and it will probably go forward

with those writers on it. >> right. >> then it will go over to the senate. but clearly just as you just said, karen, the senate has already made it clear, harry reid that that's a no good. by the way, it's not only a no-go for for the democrats in the senate it's also a no-go for the democrats here in the house. >> to that point, congressman cummings, as muchsa the republicans are trying to put this on the senate democrats and the president, they are putting forward a measure that they know is not going to pass in the senate, that could lead, may lead to a government shutdown. so in effect, they're basically -- i mean, this feels like a game of chicken and yet it's very serious. >> it's extremely serious. basically they don't like the affordable care act. some call it obama care. but they don't like it. and they were not able to get

their way through the regular process of governing. this is the law. and it has been signed by the president. as a matter of fact, supreme court justice roberts said it's constitutional and the supreme court did, and it is the law. and so they don't like it, so they're basically saying, because we don't like it, we are willing to shut the government down and have the effect that you just talked about. >> right. >> one of the things that the republicans talk about quite a bit is uncertainty. these every six months, every few months, having these battles over fiscal matters and issues, only puts a lot of folks in an uncertain situation and it does nothing to create jobs. if anything, it takes away jobs and it hurts the american people. i agree with the president. this is not -- this has not hurt the president. this hurts all of our

constituents. >> right, it hurts the country. they love to talk about the constitution. i'm pretty sure the constitution does not suggest this is the way things should run. you pass a law, it's law, that's it, you don't get to go back later and explain and whine about it. the other thing that strikes me, we're talking about this continuing resolution, as you point out. we're not even talking about a budget which the house and senate passed a budget, the republicans are refusediing to e a conference on the budget which would reduce some of the uncertainty and we're still looking at a fight over the debt ceiling. it's like a hostage list from the republicans. >> i'm going to tell you, it pains me that folks would -- the republicans would threaten the full faith and credit of the united states of america.

look, this institute pay bills that we have already made. >> right. >> basically what they're saying is, look, you have to give us something, so we can do what we're supposed to do, that is pay the bills of the american people. that's ludicrous. so the other thing is, there's not one single democrat that i know of, who has said that they have to have something to go out and pay the bills of the united states of america. >> right. >> all of the democrats are saying, this is our duty, this is what we're sworn to do, let's do it. the republicans are giving us a whole laundry list of things, whatever they couldn't get through the legislative process, they now are holding us hostage to this. >> it's a whole new form of governing by hostage taking. we have sound from president obama talking about this yesterday. let's listen. >> house republicans are so concerned with appeasing the tea party that they've threatened a

government shutdown or worse, unless i gut or repeal the affordable care act. i said this yesterday, let me repeat it -- that's not going to happen. >> now, congressman, my understanding was that part of the way boehner was trying to make it shake out this week, he was trying to get support -- part of the reason there's this laundry list attached to the idea of the debt ceiling, he was trying to get people to vote for a clean cr and trying to convince them, let's just put your stuff on this debt ceiling and that will be where we have the fight. but now we're in a situation where we have both, we have a cr that is not going to make it through the senate and we have a debt ceiling that has, what i would call a hostage list, essentially. the american people are so frustrated. what would you say to people about why they should still believe that we can get through this and that this government will continue to function? >> i would say to the american

people, there are a lot of us who want to get things done. there are a lot of republicans that want to get things done, some of them have told me privately they don't like the idea of what this two tea party group is doing. people have to spoke out. we don't have the right to remain silent at this point. this is a significant juncture. >> yeah. >> if democrats give in on this point, this tea party group, they're never going to be satisfied. >> that's right. >> so this becomes a way of governing, every time you have a debt ceiling, you have to go through this process. that goes against everything we stand for. we're better than that. >> it strikes me if democrats concede any point to the tea party at this point, it may not just be on the debt ceiling, they may go back and up other things they like. >> that's exactly right.

>> thank you for standing strong and i hope the rest of the democrats stand strong with you. >> they will. >> all right. for the latest from the white house, we bring in kristin welker. what a day. >> what a day. >> i understand that the white house -- [ inaudible ] >> secretary jay carney, i'll read you a bit of it. he says quote any member of the republican peter who votes for this bill is voting for a shutdown. it's time for the house to listen to the american people and act in a way to pass a bill that keeps the government running and move on. we also got a statement from senior adviser dan fiver who said this, the house is about to veet to shut down the government. nothing more, nothing less. this administration at this hour, reiterating their point

that they are not going to negotiate on the health care law. this latest bill would essentially delay the president's health care law by a year, scale back one of the taxes associated with it. the white house saying they're not going to negotiate on that issue, that's supported by whoa we heard from leader reid earlier today who also says that the senate will not pass this bill. how do they move forward? that is the big question mark. and of course the clock is ticking. so that's the really issue here. how can they resolve this problem, get beyond this stalemate? it's really anyone's guess at this point. >> and to that point, last hour i spoke with jennifer pal merry, the white house communication director, and i asked her if the president had any plans to speak with speaker boehner, the phrase that we all know so well, i don't have any calls to report out to you, but she also made a point, i have some sound from that, about the fact, 48 hours is -- can be a very long time in

this kind of negotiation. i'm going to go ahead and play that for you. >> okay. >> my experience in these situations is that afra48 hoursa very long time. we hope that reasonable people could figure out a different way between now and midnight on monday night. and i think it's important to remember that what's in the way here, is a decision by speaker boehner that he has to only pass a continuing resolution with republican votes. >> so kristin, it seems like the white house is basically putting it back on republicans in the house and just as republicans in the house are putting it on the president and democrats in the senate. what does the next 48 hours look like? >> i think there's one pressure point here that the white house hopes will provide them with some leverage. that is when you ask americans, when you look at the polls, a majority of them say they would blame republicans if the government were to shut down. so i think that that is one of

the -- part of the political calculation at the white house as they allow this clock to tick down. of course there are ways that lawmakers can figure out a way to keep the government open, possibly with a really short-term spending measure, something that would extend government spending for one week, so they could get beyond this larger impasse. but at this point in time, both sides continue to really dig in their heels on these issues, with republicans continuing to insist that the health care law has to be a part of this and karen, the other part of the political calculation here is that republicans are so sharply divided. >> right. >> some of the republicans, the more conservatives really pushing this effort to make sure obama care is defunded. but then you have the more establishment republicans saying, this is not the time to negotiate this. just yesterday mid romney made that argument as well, saying

there are other battles over which they can try to defund obama care. >> i think it's right. and it's unfortunately deja vu all over again, having gone through this in the clinton administration. i hope we don't end up shutting down the government, but it seems like we're headed that way. how a freshman center has control over the house cuckoo caucus. that's next? >> a lot of republicans are beaten down and scared if we stand together that republicans will be blamed and it's too risky. i just think we need to stand for principle and actually stand together. [ woman ] if you have the audacity to believe

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>> last week, the house of

representatives stood up, courageously acted united to defund obama care. they listened to the american people. that was the right thing to do. house leadership did the right thing last week and i am hopeful and confident the house of representatives will continue to do the right thing, to listen to the american people and to fight to stop this train wreck. >> that was texas republican senator ted cruz urging the house yesterday to listen to the american people. but what he really means, of course, is listen to him as robert costa reported on friday, on a thursday conference call, a group of house conservatives consulted with senator ted cruz of texas about how to respond to the leadership's fiscal strategy. sources on the call say cruz strongly advised them to oppose it. that pretty much sums up everything. cruz speaks, and boehner and the rest of the party fizzles. we'll see if the government will

fizzle with it. with me now, robert costa and washington bureau chief ryan grimm. thanks for joining me. i want to start with you, robert. you've been on the hill all day. i'm wondering what the news is. if there's been any reaction from the white house. >> the white house has just dismissed what the republicans are doing. the mood on capitol hill is that the shutdown looms. harry reid came out and said it's dead on arrival and john boehner is trying to come up with a final game plan. >> how does he do that, ryan? because it does strike me that any time we think that speaker boehner has a game plan, you can't really count on it, because now it apparently depends on whether or not ted cruz approves. >> his game plans in the past have been to led chaos rein

until the last second. and let democrats bail them out. there's still time for that to happen. they passed this today, if reid invokes cloture tomorrow, there's still time to get it -- to do away with the sillyness that the house put in there and send it back to the house one more time before the government shuts down. that puts it on boehner, and maybe he takes it over midnight just so there can be a government shutdown, so he can say to his troops, look, i told you that they weren't going to repeal obama care. the guy's name and obama, he's not going to delay, defund anything to obama care. hey, look, now we went over the deadline, the government is shut down, let's move forward here. so it's still possible they could get it back in time. >> robert, here's what i think so many of us find frustrating. there are enough moderate republicans, if boehner was willing to put the clean cr on the floor, it is likely that it

could pass in the house. but where are those moderate republicans? why are they not being more vocal, why are they not stepping up? >> the easy answer is that they're scared to be more vocal. they know when they go back to their districts, if a shutdown happens, they'll be surrounded by criticism, get a ton of calls about a shutdown. no one wants the shutdown to happen. but because the conservative movement has taken over the party since mitt romney lost last year, they don't want to alienate the tea party base. >> it really does feel like it's ted cruz who is really controlling the party right now, and you have this sort of fighting going on between house republicans, senate republicans and even some tension between the senate republican caucus. i'll play this sound for you. >> relative to this vote tonight, happening tomorrow

instead, is that my two colleagues, who i respect, have sent out e-mails around the world and turned this into a show, possibly. that is taking priority over getting legislation back to the house, so they can take action before the country's government shuts down. >> i mean, you know, and then later he sort of sends out a tweet to try to smooth things over, but this feels like the republican party coming unglued and really the person we need to be negotiating with is ted cruz. >> i think that's true. it was amazing for me on thursday and friday to talk to house conservatives. they're not going to their own leadership to get direction, to get strategic point. they're going to a senator who's been in office for less than a year. that's just a fascinating power play happening right now. senator cruz is not only acting to corral -- >> the other thing that strikes

me is while we're having this conversation, we're not even talking about -- a number of democrats had concerns because it doesn't address sequester cuts. that argument has been put while we focus on not shutting the government down over this obama care sillyness. >> it's a huge win for the tea party. even if the tea party were to implode as a result of whatever they do, let's say they freeze the global economy by busting through the debt ceiling, even if they do that, they have accomplished a change in the conversation around spending that was extremely difficult to do. like here we are about to cement these sequester levels of spending, which everyone in 2011 and 2012, when they were being implemented, assumed they would be undone. >> right. >> that was just the way things worked in washington and here we

are extending them again. who knows? december, january, you know, if they play their hands wrong, democrats might be able to get some sequester relief here, but at this point, that is a tremendous victory for them. >> and we should remind people what we're talking about here with these cuts, more kids being kicked off head start, fewer meals on wheels, we're talking about very real consequences for people, on top of whatever other pain they may decide to inflict. >> right. it's just total self-destruction. you have scientists, sam stein has done great reporting on this, scientists are looking for jobs in other parts of the country. we for years have been leading the world in research and we're just, for no good reason, just giving all that up. we have tremendously dedicated public servants, government workers. we haven't given them a raise in

three years, then we slap them with a sequester which reduces their pay. now we're going to shut them down. the best people in government are going to say, you know what, i'm out of here. i can't take this anymore. and we'll be left with the worst people in government, the ones that we probably don't want to stay. there's just no way that a manager in a private sector would run something remotely like the government has been run the last five years or so. >> final point to you, robert. we've talked about this before, that feels to me like exactly the point to many of these tea party congressman, that they want to show -- they want to destruct the government. they want it to not work. the more there is confusion and unrest, the more it sort of bolsters their point, their anti-government points. >> i think it does very much come from their ideology. when i talk to conservative members of the house and senate, they look at the budget control

act which set the sequester in ackedz as their chief accomplishment. boehner will be in a tough position, not going to be allowed to deal on the sequester because republicans love those cuts. >> just the phrase that the speaker of the house is not going to be able to deal -- why? because the tea party won't let him and cruz won't sign off. that's a frightening thought. thank you. >> thank you. >> don't go anywhere. we're coming up, we have a live report from capitol hill as we await tonight's vote. we'll be right back. >> it really to me comes across as a holier than thou fraud. he's the only honest man and yet everything he's telling us is basically a lie. he's convinced too many republicans in our base that all we have to do is defund obama care, vote to defund it in the house of representatives and that will be the end of it. it's non-sense, he knows it, but

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any minute now the house rules committee will take up the government spending bill that delays obama care for one year. from there it will any to the house floor for debate and members are expected to pass it by the end of the evening. for the latest, let's bring in luke russert. >> how you doing? >> i'm doing all right. you probably have had a tougher day than i have, being up there with all those crazy folks. tell us, what's the latest and what does the timing look like at this point? >> well, the timing is as follows. you mentioned they're going to bring the bill to the rules committee. take a step back first. this is break neck speed for how fast the house is working here. for the outside viewers, this is very fast for how they operate. usually take three days, but they did it all in the same day. from where we stand, thought maybe done by 8:00, moving more slowly. probably around 10:00, maybe as late as 11:00.

definitely happen this evening. depends how long the debate goes and democrats speak in opposition. it's interesting to see today more than anything, all week you've sort of seen boehner as a weak leader, boehner not being able to move anything and then today with this plan, he's got heritage action, he's got tea party patriots, all these outside conservative groups that have been running the house gop conference, being the energy of it, they're all supportive of this. so the leadership after the difficult week they've had is excited to finally have the support of the cruz caucus. >> right. it sort of reminds me when they had cheering section in that last meeting that they did, where they were cheering speaker boehner, because basically he gave in to the tea party. you're right, the pressure from these outside groups, sure, it's an easier time for him when he just doesn't fight it, but like

you said, it's the cruz caucus. and essentially, you know, what they know that what they're about to do is just going to come right on back from the senate. >> right. this basically sets us up on this path to r what happens on monday. reid has said he's not going to take any of this up. this is the tick tok, tick tok, tick tok. speaking to more of the standpoint republicans, they've said, look, maybe a shutdown can show to our guys, if we get blamed publicly that this was not a good strategy and this might actually help us in terms of raising the debt limit later on. and the other thing they say, we feel comfortable that the economy, or the shutdown can be withstood for three or four days and it gives us time to break this. what's very clear, karen, is that it can't move cleanly without democratic support. >> right. >> so it's not a question of if they're going to have to do

that, because they will. it's a question of when. there's some speculation reid would accept the permanent repeal of the device tax, but reid has been so adamant that he will not do that, so the end game is unclear. >> so technically if the house, maybe around 10:00 when we know where they end up, that then goes officially back to the senate. do we expect the senate to be in session tomorrow? >> no. so far they've said they won't be back tomorrow. they'll be back at 2:00 on monday. harry reid, perhaps emboldened by the polling on this issue, has said, if you vote for this bill, you're voting for a government shutdown. they say clean or nothing. unlike other debates, back to the debt limit debate, the original government funding debate from april of 2011, this time the democrats, they don't care, they're saying, fine, if you want to play this game,

we're more than happy to do it. the president's been reelected, we think we have the high ground, let's go. it's odd to see democrats emboldened to that degree especially the last few years when they've had to go so far on the right on a lot of these negotiations. >> i agree. the dynamics, politically are so different this time, for so many of the tea partyers, i hear what you're saying the establishment republicans say, they're going to teach those young ones a lesson. but they don't care. >> the interesting question, if there is a shutdown, how does the media cover it today versus 1996? in 1996, you did have the blogs, the conservative outlets where people got their information from, who were die-hards. it was more mainstream then. does a shutdown resonate as much with the individuals who caused

it? i don't know. the american public will feel it and be angry, but we don't really listen to much to the american public on capitol hill as much as we used to. >> i'd say the twitter wars will be legendary if we get to that point. >> indeed. >> thank you. >> take care. all right, from capitol hill to the air waves. he's the man republicans leaders have feared for years. while they sometimes refer to him as just an entertainer, no one has dared to cross the all powerful rush limbaugh. but recently the long-time spiritual of the right-wing, he's got some competition in ted cruz. here was rush this week responding to a women in washington event that i moderated earlier this week with senator patty murray. >> women of washington. i mean, how many testicle lock boxes do you think were at this

forum? washington women, ha! karen funny who is an democrat info babe, including democrat senator patty murray. now this is the brick hum talking point, which is the republican party's run completely on fear of me. and here's how this sound bite goes. >> oh, we can't do that. we can't speak out against rush. but he's not a leader in the party. don't think that, it's just we can't say anything. similarly you hear that kind of conversation about the tea party people. >> that's leading from a point of fear, and people don't support fear. >> who are they talking about, me or cruz? i don't know who they're talking about here. because in my name, we can't do that, we can't speak out against

rush, he's not a leader. it's not that we can't say anything, they're talking about me. >> oh, rush, you know you love it when we talk about you. but i have to say, senator cruz is able -- has been able to shut down the government, refuse to fund the debt ceiling and halt the economy. rush, i think you're about to be dethroned. up next, i'll speak with two democrats on how to deal with chaos in the grand old party. that's ahead. >> remember if you have a democratic house and a democratic speaker who said we're not going to pass the debt ceiling unless we raise corporate taxes by 40%, or unless we pass background checks on guns, or whatever other list of agenda items democrats were interested in. does anybody actually think that we would be hearing from republicans that that was acceptable behavior?

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we continue to watch the latest from the house in the lead-up to a possible government shutdown. once the house bill is voted on tonight, it heads to the democratic-led senate where it's odds are not good. in the last hour, chuck schumer said, this is just another attempt by the republican leadership to appease the hard right and try to wriggle out of the blame for shutting down the government. the only way for speaker bane tore get out of his dilemma is to pass a clean continuing resolution to debate the affordable care act at another time and place without holding the american people hostage. >> congressman, thanks so much for being with me. >> my pleasure. how are you today? >> i think it's important, we've been talking about the

possibility of a shutdown and continuing resolutions, but i think it's important to remind people, we're at this point because republicans want to repeal or now they're saying at least delay for a year, which i think is probably not quite what they're really looking for, over health care, over providing health care for millions of americans, millions of americans who are already in the system and millions of americans who stand to benefit from the system. essentially that's what we're talking about here, right? >> well, it is. and we're not learning anything new in this process, karen. you know, we're here on the weekend, and i understood when i put in for this job, there were going to be some late nights and some weekends, but it's aggravating, we're not learning anything new. we're here because the republicans are throwing a temper tantrum because they didn't get their way. what did rush limbaugh call you? >> i think he called me an msnbc

info babe, i'll take that, i've been called worse. >> me too. it's aggravating we have to be here for no good reason. my son turns 21, he's having his birthday party at home in scranton, pennsylvania. i'd like to be there for that. i understand we're going to have to make sacrifices to do this kind of work, but when all it is is a small faction ever the republican caucus throwing a temper tantrum because they didn't get their way, this is crazy. >> how do you feel about the fact that so much time, as you say, you're there on the weekend, in an exercise that we know pretty much how this is going to shake out. you've had 41, 42 votes to repeal the affordable care act, which is not going to do anything. so much time in this republican-led house, has been wasted on show votes and making idealogical statements rather than, i don't know, jobs, how about the economy. >> right.

we already know that the republicans don't want to cover people with preexisting medical conditions. we understand that they don't care about closing the medicare part d doughnut hole. we get that they don't give a hoot about covering women for preventative health care treatment. we understand all that, we've heard it over and over again. they fought to prevent passing, that didn't work. they took it to court, that didn't work. now they've repealed it over 40 times. that hasn't worked. they tried their darnedest not to re-elect president obama, that didn't work either. we get it. but at some point, you've got to stop arguing, realize it's time to move on. >> congressman, what do you expect -- we understand that a vote may start at any time. what do you expect over the next several hours? >> well, what we're hearing is that it's house joint resolution

59, karen. and this is the continuing resolution. it's come back from the senate, the idea now is that they're going to amend it, and with the amendment they're going to repeal the medical device tax. now the medical device tax, it's interesting. because there is room for discussion about the medical device tax. but karen, not when -- not in these circumstances. not when they've got us over a barrel. there's so many americans that would suffer, and it's so stupid because it's been proven that a shutdown costs american taxpayers money. you would think it would save us money, but in the '95, '96 shut downs, those shutdowns cost about $2 billion. because of all the furlough notices, all of the prepare work, a lot of the administrative stuff that goes on, you end up losing a lot of money from stopping and starting

government. >> and there are real costs to real americans as well. let's hope we don't get to that point, but it seems like we are headed that way. and happy birthday to your son. >> yes, happy birthday, jack. >> for more on what the democrats in congress should do, joining me now is doug thornel. hello. i have to say, we both work in democratic politics for a long time, i think there's a tendency on the part of democrats to think, let's just step back and let this train wreck happen. unfortunately the consequences of that will tank our economy, shut down our government. so what should democrats be doing at this point? >> the thing, i think the challenge that the president has and harry reid has, how do you negotiate with a room full of 6, 7-year-olds who are having a temper tantrum? i don't know how you do it, when there's no real leader, and it unclear that they even understand what the end game is.

i would continue doing what you're seeing the two campaign arms for the senate and house democrats doing, putting pressure on individual republicans in their district. i think that you have to keep this about the economy and jobs. that's what really is at risk here. that's what republicans are threatening, with their antics. that's what i think democrats are doing. i would encourage them to keep on doing. ultimately it's a republican problem that they're going to have to come to grips on, that obama care is going to be here at least until 2016 and probably after that. i think they're going through a delusional spell and they just don't seem to remember that there was an election in 2012. >> do you think -- i agree with you. strategically i like see seeing the dccc put pressure on vulnerable republicans in districts, who think this is a lot of crazy and probably would vote for the clean cr.

do you think that's having an effect? because it feels like that's not necessarily changing the dynamic. what's changing the dynamic is ted cruz telling the tea partyers and the house, stick to your guns. so i don't see the moderates stepping up. >> you're not seeing it on tv, but we aren't sure going on behind closed doors with the house republicans, facing tough re-election campaigns and what they're privately saying to speaker boehner and others. so we don't know what those conversations are. right now they're all kind of trying to get together and put on a good face. but if there's a shutdown that goes on for a couple days or a week, there will be immense pressure on those republicans to at the end of the day. as we've seen with all the polls out there, they will be blamed. they will be blamed for this. look, maybe republicans that are taking the same approach they did in 2012 where they didn't

believe the polls. >> that's true. >> they didn't believe mitt romney could lose. that's a real dangerous approach to political strategizing. >> we should make sure to send some polls over to them because you've right, they have trouble with math. thanks, doug. >> thanks, karen. ahead, how could your day-to-day life be affected by the government shutdown? >> have you been to an emergency -- >> my oldest son is a physician. >> so you know who shows up. these are people who don't have health insurance. -- >> quite often it's illegal aliens. illegal aliens show up. >> quite often it's illegal aliens. illegal aliens show up. >> quite often it's illegal aliens. illegal aliens show up. >> quite aliens. illegal aliens show up. with the spark miles card from capital one,

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there's real consequences next week should the federal government shut down. and joining me to discuss this are professor james peterson an goldy taylor of the goldy taylor project. you know, guys, i want to start with the economic impact. we're having this conversation about government shutdown and it's a little bit disconnected from i think the reality that for some people there will be a very real impact. for starters, you know, and i went through this process myself, you decide who is essential, who is nonessential. and if you're nonessential you go home and that could be up to 800,000 nonessential federal employees. others who could be impacted, new applicants for social security, national parks. there's a real impact. >> there really is and it will be felt immediately for those folks in the d.c., virginia, maryland area who work in the

federal government. that 41% of so called nonessential feds rale workers who will be furloughed immediately if the government shuts down, i'm not exactly sure what the calculus is in each of these very important federal offices, for who constitute being essential and nonessential. but i think there's even a bigger picture than that, karen, which is, you know, we're looking at a government that has had the low e amount of discretionary spending by at least in the last decade. all discretionary spending is going to go. this is happening at a moment when the economic recovery is slowing down. we've been shedding government jobs and shedding the government's role in the recovery, so this doesn't help that larger picture either. >> and you've eve got republicans blaming the rise in the workforce on obamacare which

kak chully, studies show that's what happens in the aftermath of the crash that we saw. >> if you look back over the last several years, you see employers triek to take the short cuts. golddie, i want to talk to you specifically. you lived through the last shutdown although i think the impact was maybe greater felt than me. talk about what happened to you during the '90s when the government shutdown. >> there's one in '95 and '96. the one in '96 lasted 2$28 days. that's 1r50 million a day that the u.s. government would be paying for the shutdown. generally speaking the federal government sets it money to the states in quarters. but that also means there are no new applications. in my case i was in college at the time. i could not apply for the

childcare grant that the state offered that came through a federal block grant. my application was held until after the furlough which caused me to take a semester out of school and lost my scholarship. i had to fight to get it back. that lost of scholarship was tremendous. i think at the end of the day we've got to be concerned with not just the people who live and work inside of d.c., we've got to be concerned about the contractors across the country who are really small businesses, mom and pop businesses who are benefitting from some larger contract with our federal government. we're talking about people who run dry cleaners, restaurants and that are in the shadow of a federal office building. these are not major corporations running these businesses. this is your next door neighbor.

>> you know, i think that's such an important point because we forget that the impact, there's a ripple effect to the impacts when there is a shutdown and sort of the kmubts that are impacted, it's not just the museum is close or the park is closed. i mean -- sometimes, as you point out, i mean how short sided would that have been if you would have lost your student housing. here you were trying do all of the right things and the shutdown made it harder. >> i had to appeal to the office. i had to beg for my place in student housing and they happened to see my particular predicament and give me that extension but they didn't have to do it. >> james, it's short sided also because as we know there will be a huge cost to the economy. it will cost the federal government to shut down. >> it's very expensive. >> this is really foolish and job killing. the republicans are being job killers themselves with this behavior. >> our federal government has

been running at a slower pace and not doing what it should be doing in recession times any way. goldsie is right all federal loans are going to be gone if the government shuts down. the federal government buys things in bulk and gets them for affordable. but now, in a furlough and a shutdown situation, essentially the federal government will be buying certain things almost as if it's retail. this costs more. it's not saving us any money. >> right. it seems so hollow. they're so concerned about cutting spending and yet they're doing things that are actually going to make it all much worse. >> insanity. >> it is instanty. thank you both for offering a bit of sanity today. >> thank you, karen. >> thanks, karen. >> thank you very much for joining us. stay tuned, our msnbc's continuing coverage of the looming government shutdown will

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and focusing on what you need to know so you can get a degree at your pace. and graduate at the speed of you. flexpath from capella university learn more at capella.edu breaking right now, at this hour, the united states creeps closer and closer to its first government shutdown in nearly two decades. right now the house is getting ready to debate a new spending plan. a vote is expected at some point this evening. but senate majority leader harry reid is calling this a nonstarter. is there any way of stopping the shutdown before then. good saturday evening. i'm craig mall venn. we are waiting for