the aca, here to stay. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews up in new york. let me start tonight with what's not going to start tonight. the united states government. if you want to know why this is happening since last night, the answer comes in two words. ted cruz. cruz set this up beautifully. first he prevented the house and senate budget committees from meeting on what the government should be spending. this stopped the appropriations process in its track. not a single appropriations bill has been signed. the result? of preventing a single bill, the continuing resolution, from getting enacted. this is the brilliance of ted cruz. no spending bills have been passed, shutting down the u.s. government could be complete. it wouldn't be some departments or agencies being shut down, but

the whole shebang. brilliant. the freshman senator from texas has brought the american political process to total dysfunction. the american government to a shutdown. his plan now quite bluntly is to turn the united states into a dead beat nation. by the end of this month should he still be in control, the chinese billionaire who went into tea bonds will be in the same boat. there won't be a nickel in interest. what will that do? suppose you saw an airline advertise it had a 95% safety record. what would you do to that? what would that do to you? wouldn't you look around for one with a 100% record. that's what the investors of the world have been doing for a century. that country with 100% safety record for paying interest on its bonds has been the united states of america. mr. cruz's plan which is to kill that 100% record. that's what he's up to. if he doesn't get his way, that's what he'll do. got it? joining me right now is peter

king of new york and charles dent of pennsylvania. both of whom have challenged their party on the government shutdown. a new quinnipiac poll shows the americans do not agree with shutting down the government to stop the health care law. 22% to 72%. when you look among republicans, there's a majority support for a federal government shutdown. republicans favor it by a narrow 49% to 44%. it's republicans in favor and democrats who oppose. i know these numbers will change over the next several days. peter king, i want to did you -- i'm not putting any words because i'm not sure where you're at with the party or the country. i'm going to give you full time without interruption to explain peter king's position on this situation where we have a shut down u.s. government. >> chris, there's absolutely no reason for the government to be shut down. this was a fool's errand that was started by ted cruz. we can't just blame him. we have to also blame his accolades in the republican conference.

30 or 40 of them who stood with him, who were willing to undo what john boehner wanted to do which was to pass the cr, move this along. they insisted on going this route of attempting to defund obama care and threatening to shut down the government if it wasn't done. we got locked into this. we are where we are and i blame ted cruz and his supporters for doing that. i also feel very strongly that it's time for the president of the united states to get involved. he can blame us, he can blame the republicans, but he is the president. this is his government. these are his people being furloughed. >> you're an excellent legislator. you do things that surprise people. i believe he can't give up the baby. that's his health care law. is there anything else he can use to compromise with the hard right here? what would work? >> i think -- i don't know if you can compromise with them at all. i think if he could come up with a reasonable proposal that a majority of republicans would support, then we should go with that. we can't allow ourselves to be

bound by this hard right of the party. i consider myself conservative, but the ted cruz wing has no interest in keeping the government going. i think they can be very damaging to us. if the president can come up with a reasonable proposal which shows meaningful cuts or reductions in spending or whatever, something to put on the table that john boehner can show that he achieved something by this, then we should go with it. and we can't allow ted cruz to have a veto power of what we do, what the president does, what the country does. we have to get a best arrangement, best deal we can. the term tip o'neill loved. get a deal. >> let's talk about that. mr. dent, just a minute here. i know peter well. i don't know you yet. let me ask you about a deal. suppose the president went on tv and said this is hurting the country but what's going to hurt more is if we have to default so here's what i propose. i will give up a portion of the affordable care act. i will give up this medical

devices tax which is about $30 billion. i'll give that up, but i need a deal on the debt ceiling as well. would you go along with that three-part deal? >> we can put them all together, yes. get it on the table. if we can wrap everything up at one time, yes. would the medical device thing be enough? i don't know. for me, it's enough, sure. >> all right. let me go to mr. dent. let me ask you generally where do you stand and where would you like to see this close. >> look, i agree with what peter said. there's no reason for a government shutdown. i certainly would under any circumstances oppose this country defaulting on its obligations. the deal that you just mentioned, chris, is one that i can warm up to. i've been one of the key proponents of repealing the medical device tax. i've been working with democratic friends and colleagues in the house who also want to repeal that device tax.

they just want to pay for it. i think we could find agreement on that issue. >> would it get you half your caucus? would it work? >> i don't know, but it would certainly get a number of folks. in states like pennsylvania, new jersey, minnesota, this device tax is a big deal. massachusetts. but i believe a large number of our members would vote for it. you're not going to get the two or three dozen who have a hard time voting yes for anything. but we have member who is do have a serious sense of governance and an affirmative obligation to govern. i think most of those folks would be amenable to that. >> i will urge you. you've had your free opportunities. now lead in questions here. i've had wild people on this show the last couple weeks. they know who they are, who say i really can't say with my lips that this man barack obama was legitimately elected president. they choke on that. how many are there in the congress on your side that

represent that sort of rejectionist front? we don't like this guy, we want him out of here, we want to erase his record as if he were never here. congressman king, how many people are like that? they want to put the barry bonds asterisk next to this guy. he didn't really hit these home runs. we wish they had never come. >> i would say there's probably 30 or 40 like that. as there were a number of democrats who felt that way about george bush. and then going back how republicans felt about bill clinton. this is a dangerous part of our government. >> what is? >> that we have someone willing to demonize the president of the united states because he's of a different party. when george bush was there you had democrats who had this bush obsession. and now obviously with president obama, it's definitely there. there's no doubt about it. >> they missed some good times with bill, didn't they. >> that's right. >> mr. dent, i don't know your district well.

you're up by lehigh valley which has been factory people, hard working people. not suburbanite types really. how is your district responding to this kerfuffle with a possible default? >> most of my constituents believe in order and stability. they don't like uncertainty, they don't like chaos or instability. they want to make sure the government is operating. many of them do want to see changes to the health care law. there's really concern. i'm not going to kid you here. there's concern about that law, but at the same time they don't want me to shut down the government because of the health care law. i would say most of my constituents are fairly pragmatic. they're concerned about what they're seeing here in washington. and they think we've all lost our minds. they expect us to behave like adults and get to a reasonable resolution.

>> do they grasp it the way you grasp it? do they see it as -- i look at things like this inability of congress to get the appropriations process completed in time. let me go back to mr. king. i they had the same budget. they would work things out. today we can't meet to agree on the appropriations and really set a budget framework. things are backed up so far, it's easy for somebody like ted cruz to come in and put a detonator through the whole system and blow it up easily with one vote. your thoughts, mr. king. >> chris, i agree. and, again, my district, ronald reagan carried long island by more votes than any area in the country. a lot of blue collar conservative oriented people, they would be against what's called obama care. but they think we're crazy for even thinking of shutting down the government. they want to get results. they want to get things done.

if i can get them 60% to 70% of what they want, i'm doing the job. we're realists. we're pragmatic. basic conservative values, but get it done. make sure we get the job done. >> you know who those people are? the alumni of notre dame. the people who get up on sunday morning to see if notre dame won. thank you peter king and charlie dent. coming up, republicans are divided to some extent. is there any way for the republicans to get out of the box they put themselves into thanks to cruz? can president obama help them get out of the cruz box? also this fight is about erasing from history, i think, the affordable care act. obama care, if you will. that's why he'll never agree to one-year delays or whatever because delay will be destruction here. and he knows it. plus, it wasn't always this way. my new book came out officially today. and it's all about the time when

democrats and republicans actually work to resolve their differences. they fought, they showed their fists, and then eventually they shook hands. and no surprise here, but shutdown was pure gold for late night comedians last night. >> which plan do you prefer? obama care or the affordable care act? >> the affordable care act. >> what is it about obama care that you don't like? >> i think there's a lot of holes in it and it needs to be revamped. >> the affordable care act is obama care. i'm sorry, don't make fun of people, but this is a problem out there. they don't like the word obama. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

more now from that quinnipiac poll out today on the government shutdown. we showed you how voters are strongly opposed to the republican strategy. and they may pay for it in the next midterms. democrats lead on the bout in

that poll by nine points. 43% to 34%. that's the widest margin for 2014 the poll has found so far. according to david wasserman at the cook political report, the democrats would need to win by seven points to win back the house. that's because gerrymandering. the day we rescued riley was a truly amazing day. he was a matted mess in a small cage. so that was our first task, was getting him to wellness. without angie's list, i don't know if we could have found all the services we needed for our riley. from contractors and doctors to dog sitters and landscapers, you can find it all on angie's list. we found riley at the shelter, and found everything he needed at angie's list. join today at angieslist.com

♪ for a store near you go to benjaminmoore.com/bayarea.

for a store near you go to benjaminmoore.com/bayarea. i know it's strange that one party would make keeping people uninsured the center piece of their agenda. but that apparently is what it is. and of course what's stranger still is that shutting down our government doesn't accomplish their stated goal. the affordable care act is a law that passed the house, it pased the senate, the supreme court ruled it constitutional. it was a central issue in last year's election. it is settled and it is here to stay. >> here to stay. welcome back to "hardball." that was president obama being very strong earlier today telling republicans in no uncertain terms that the affordable care act will not be held hostage. it is and everyone knows this as

the law of the land. republicans over common sense escalations. the health care law or the economy in the process. but let's be clear here, for the radical faction of republicans and control of that party for whatever reason, this has never been about real compromise. their goal is i believe in kill shot. directly at the heart of the president. the gop crusade to delegitimatize the president when newt gingrich appeared on pat robertson's the 700 club. >> the big problem is that president obama refuses to behave like an american president. he refuses to deal with the congress as an equal. >> michael steele is former chair of the rnc and ed rendell. michael steele, i don't know what mood you're in, but if you heard it the way i heard it, there's the guy that will always accuse our president of having a british colonial attitude born

in kenya. he challenges the guy's authenticity in subtle ways. why can't he act like an american president? what is this? you can say that nuance if you want. i hear it. i've heard newt. i've heard him in the past delegitimatize his presidency. and you've won the board, you've taken this guy off the historic board. he never was really president. that's what these characters seem to want. >> right. i think this is the fog of this particular war that has put the republicans in the space they're in right now. this argument has never in my estimation been about the legitimacy of the president. he was elected once, twice by the american people. so the party has an obligation to deal with that. part of the problem we have now is that a lot of this has become so personal and so engrained that the idea of even having a conversation with this white

house -- and look, i can go all day long about problems i have with the administration not coming to the table clean and correct. that's not the point here. the point at this stage is the government is not functioning. the house put things on the table i think somewhat legitimately in terms of obama care. but we've linked two things that shouldn't be linked right now in our going after obama care. it's not about obama care. it's about obama. >> let me go to governor rendell. i know you had a fight with a legislature that was not easy to deal with. you had to deal with them in a rough manner. is this negotiating position for the right wing rs to say just give up the thing you did, give up your baby. >> of course not, chris. and michael's right. the american people are smart enough to discern these two things don't go together. they may not like obama care, but they don't want extraneous issue fouling up the budget. i think the republicans made a

huge strategic mistake. i would have gone ahead and done a clean cr and then fought over raising the debt ceiling. because the polls on the debt ceiling show that 61% of the american people don't want the debt ceiling raised until there's further debt reduction. so they were on much sounder ground because those things are consistent. they cough fought there. but you're right. i think chris is right. the hatred for the president is warping their judgment. they don't want to make real progress. they don't want real compromise. they just want to destroy and they can't destroy. >> they're destroying the speakership. i think they're destroying the speakership, too, governor. >> i agree. >> i want to ask you michael, reince priebus the leader of the republican party, he beat you in that race. i don't think he's the true leader of anything. he has sided with ted cruz against the speaker, it seems. and to take sides against the elected leader of the house who holds a constitutional position is to undermine him in his own

caucus. i think that's part of this problem. why is priebus one of the lemmings running towards a freshman senator who's only been in congress a half a year? >> and i can't speak to the rationale behind it other than the idea about fund raising. that part of the base that is ginned up in this are going to write a check. and so i think as i said at the time, that was not a playing field for the party to present itself in terms of taking sides. the majority leader, the speaker have carved out the pathway. the party has to rally behind that. and part of boehner's problem right now is that he's in a corner and he's not in a face-off with obama, he's in a face-off with his own people. and so how does he now turn that face around to confront in a unified fashion the administration? and i think to the governor's point, the battle is not about obama care. there are ways we could have

dealt with obama care without going -- coming to this point. the real test is going to be the debt ceiling. that's where the argument is for the american people. >> the way to get rid of obama care is constitutional. the way it was enacted. you get elected enough control of both houses and you get a president to sign the bill or your override the president. we know since the time of grade school, we've been taught this stuff. this is an interesting fact here for the northeast here. republicans are radically more isolated and insulated compared to 17 years ago, the last time of the government shutdown. take a look at these numbers. when the government shut down under clinton and gingrich, a third of the house republicans that voted for bill districts in '92. today only 7% of house republicans represent districts that voted for obama in 2012. thanks to gerrymandering and other reasons, districts are more conservative. i think for this thing to ever come to equilibrium is these

republicans know they can't get beaten at home because their districts are so conservative. >> yeah, the majority of them can't, chris. but the republican margin, the way they control the house is because there's still about 40 moderates out there. and they've got to worry about those moderates. since yesterday charlie dent's okay. dent's being praised at home, but fitzpatrick, meehan, and gurlach all who claim to be moderates, they all voted with the tea party. and they are getting pounded by democrats by the boards -- >> you have just booked three people on our show if they are willing to come. i offer to anyone from those offices, please come in. pat meehan, he wants to go statewide at some point. this is the time to go with the moderates. i'm giving political advice here. >> that's the problem, chris. that's the problem. if those guys lose, the republicans lose control of the house. and we have now got an argument

that those guys are tea party supporters, they're bringing progress down in washington. they're the guys that better fold quickly. >> i'm waiting for the rendell slate to be lined up against those three guys. thank you very much. it's very popular in philadelphia, the governor. michael, last word quickly. >> i was going to say real quick on that point, going into next year you now have immigration, you have the voting rights act, you have how women perceive the party, and now this economic piece with the debt ceiling and how we're handling obama care. it's becoming a royal mess for the party going into next year. >> okay. i guess they're celebrating these negatively in the emergency rooms of america where they're going to be stuck forever if this crowd controls things. up next, jimmy kimmel discovers people may not like obama care, but they do like the affordable care act. that's ahead in the sideshow. and this is "hardball," the place for politics.

they have refused to even consider the compromise that we have offered. >> they won't even negotiate with us on anything. >> what have the democrats compromised on? nothing. >> harry reid will not negotiate with john boehner. the president will not meet with john boehner. >> the president refuses to compromise on anything. >> you don't get resolution unless people sit at the table and try to bridge these divides. >> the bridge! it's a [ bleep ] law! i don't understand this! >> welcome back to "hardball." time for the sideshow. last night jon stewart captured the absurdity of the republicans' demands. >> did you see the giants game on sunday? okay, they lost 31-7. and you know what the giants didn't say after that game? if you don't give us 25 more points by midnight on monday, we will shut down the [ bleep ] nfl. they didn't say that. this is not a game of chicken.

this is when someone is driving to work and there's a car coming directly at them in their lane. that's not a game of chicken. that's an [ bleep ] causing a head-on collision. let me see if i can put this another way for house republicans. >> you get nothing! you lose! good day, sir! >> gene wilder. and what's in a name? when it comes to obama care and affordable care act, a lot. we've seen polls more people support the law when it's referred to as the affordable care act and not obama care. yesterday jimmy kimmel demonstrated that on the streets of l.a. >> which plan do you support? obama care or the affordable care act? >> the affordable care act. >> and what is it about obama care that you do not like? >> i just think that there's a lot of holes in it, and it needs to be revamped. i think it hasn't been thought out. >> and you think the affordable care act is a better plan than obama care? >> better, but i'm not happy

with that either. >> what plan do you support? obama care or the affordable care act? >> the affordable care act. >> and why do you support that over obama care? >> do not like obama care. i don't like anything that has to be forced for everybody to buy. it's not good. >> do you think obama care is socialist? >> yes, i do. >> do you think the affordable care act is socialist? >> no. >> do you think that obama care will eventually lead to gun prohibition? >> yes. >> do you know that obama and the affordable care act are the same thing? >> no, they're not. >> finally, just for the record, the new york daily news wins for the grossest headline summing it up in their own way. it's hard to be grosser. up next, a reminder that politics hasn't always been this way. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. [ male announcer ] eligible for medicare? that's a good thing, but it doesn't cover everything. only about 80% of your part b medical expenses. the rest is up to you.

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welcome back to "hardball." as the government shuts down as it barrels towards a default, no secret americans are fed up with washington. in these days, it seems less and less likely our politicians can win back the faith. faith that government can actually work the way it's supposed to. in my new book out today "tip and the gipper" tells the story of two extraordinary politicians that did just that.

tip o'neill and ronald reagan. they managed to make politics work besides their philosophical differences. believe me, they were different. considering all the dysfunction in washington lately, it's my hope this book will remind people it doesn't have to be this way. and here's a glimpse into that story. >> gentlemen, we will drink a toast to the president of the united states. >> washington was different back then. they were different. ronald reagan came to the presidency in 1980 with a mission. he wanted to get things done, cut the size of government, cut taxes, end the cold war. >> and that will be weekend reading for tip o'neill. >> tip o'neill was the speaker of the house but understood voters wanted something new. if reagan had the votes, he would have his way. >> i enjoy his company when i go over there. philosophically, we're completely different. do i agree with his politics? absolutely no.

>> government worked back then because politicians talked to each other. i know because i was there behind the scenes i was a top aide to the speaker. that's me there checking to see how things were going. it was the toughest job i ever had, but it was a front row seat to history. >> here some golf balls with my name on them. >> you mean i can take my vent out by swinging at ronald reagan? >> welcome to the room where we plot against you i said to break the ice. in turn reagan reminded me it's after 6:00. the speaker says in washington, we're all friends after 6:00. it was that spirit that made their historic compromises possible. >> like a second tip o'neill, i'll stoop to the occasion. >> and the record of their dual or duelling achievement stands the test of time. first it was the revenue bill to cut the deficit. then the bipartisan reform of social security. then they worked together for a

major overhaul of the tax system. but the best example was when tip helped the gipper cross the biggest goal line of his presidency. >> at this hour, our congressional delegation is meeting with mikhail gorbachev. >> it marked the beginning of the end of the cold war. reagan's greatest legacy. through all those years, the key to their relationship was their ability to keep the lines of communication open. the great advantage of their socializing was they were always able to talk. that's very moving. joining me now is the woman who was there the whole time through those years. my wife kathleen matthews. we're going to do something you rarely see on "hardball." i'm going to turn the reins over to her. kathleen. >> it's hard to believe that was more than 30 years ago. it feels very fresh in my mine, certainly.

>> positively or negatively? >> amazing how relevant it feels today even though it's three decades ago. and i think that's what you've been talking about as you've been promoting this book. but for me, you know, reading that book was like getting insights back into sort of the formation of your political mind. i thought it was so amazing. you kept a diary, and chris has this incredible ledger diary which he was able to draw upon. see if we can take a picture of that. draw upon when he was writing this book. >> so why'd i do that? >> do you remember why you kept a diary? what made you do that then? >> some of it was strategy. especially on mondays i thought what can i advise the speaker to be doing. what's the strategy here. i was working for him along with kirk and ari. he asked us where are we going? what are we doing? tell me something i don't know, basically. we all had our best ideas. i would write it down, and then go in there and pitch it to him.

or i was having a fight with him over something and i'd go in and console myself by writing about what happened that day. so it's very personal like i put in the book. these were tense times. working for the toughest guy in the world tip o'neill against him taking on that conservative reagan who he disagreed with profoundly. >> very much a high wire act as we see in washington today. we saw a picture of you sitting at your desk right outside the formal office. >> i liked that office. >> chance to greet ronald reagan when he came up for the state of the union and other things. that was also a time in our family when we were just getting married, and we had our first two children. >> can we talk about that picture? >> this is a picture in the speaker's ceremonial office, and at the time i was just starting a career as a television news reporter. chris oftentimes would have daddy duty. that's our son michael who's now 31 years old who was

entertaining himself watching television while you were meeting with the speaker. here we are with our second son thomas. >> he liked thomas. i think he thought we named him after him. which is fine. >> good to lead him to believe that. but for all sort of the happiness in those photos, what made it so tense? was it the fact you had these two opposed ideological leaders of the country? and what do you think was different than the now? >> i think the good thing -- and this is a pro-older person argument -- that when you're in your late 60s, early 70s, you're still working. you know you're in your final act. it's got to work. when president reagan knew he'd only be president once, he had to get things done to put the government in shape for the way he wanted it to be. and o'neill knew this was his last chance to fight for what he believed in. and the beauty of it is and i'm not being row mant ig, he took reagan into a conservative president. and reagan gave tip o'neill something to do in his final days of public office, to fight this guy.

and he also helped him with the cold war. whenever reagan met with gorbachev, he made sure the party quieted down and caused no trouble. he went to guys like markey and said cool it. don't push it. he's meeting with gorbachev. same thing with defense spending. he said i want reagan to be able to pick up the check in geneva and not be screwed by us at home. he was patriotic. and a human being. when reagan was shot, he went in and prayed with him. >> you describe a tug of war. each side is pulling each other towards the center. is that how politics should work and how did your experience then sort of shape the current landscape? >> the goal of every left and every right is to pull away from the other side and hopefully end up where the american people are. and what's happened -- and keep the other side honest. if there's a crooked guy in there like nixon, catch him and get him out.

now the sides sabotage each other. this debt ceiling fight is sabotage. it's not good for the country. nothing good's going to come from it. you have to play by the rules. these guys did. he let them fight. and when tip won the battle over social security, reagan fixed it a democratic way. so they knew how to keep score. you're taught when you're five years old, you play tag, you're it. you got to say i'm it or else it doesn't work. these guys like cruz do not understand the basic human behavior of rules. they wait until the game's over and say that doesn't count. can't do it that way. >> this book also reminded me of the education of henry adams. sort of the making of someone. how much is your current philosophy shaped by those eras? how much of the chris that we hear on tv is the chris that was kind of shaped by those

experiences in the 1980s with those two great historic political figures? >> well, my feelings really come about from the '60s, the vietnam war which went way too long after we knew it wasn't going to work. we should have decided in '68, this isn't working and just killing. and the other thing was civil rights which i still think is -- when i watch voter suppression to screw people out of their votes, that gets to me. what i learned from tip was he wasn't some liberal doing this for the votes. he really did care about the old person and care about the kid who couldn't afford to go to college. it was real with him. and it wasn't phony. it was real, good, human liberalism. i learned that from him. convictions help you. they don't hold you back. both these guys were not quitters. >> there's a temptation to sort of say what's the how-to lesson in a book like this? you resisted this of a how-to. >> i don't want to turn it into a mechanics book. but if you respect the voter,

obama won two elections. respect that. he passed a health care law. respect that. and he is president of the united states. he's not some guy from kenya. stop that birtherism, that undercurrent of crapola the right wing is pushing. that's not a word. >> that is how he talks at the dinner table. that colorful language. >> kathleen, thank you. president reagan was as tough in his language. up next, some say delay of the affordable care act, does that mean kill it? i think so. delay is defeat. anyway, this is "hardball," the place for politics. [ male announcer ] sheets or bar? how do you get your bounce? bounce keeps my clothes fresh for weeks, even when they've been sitting in the drawer a long time. like those jeans you can't fit into anymore. uh...by that, i mean... [ male announcer ] how do you get your bounce? long-lasting freshness.

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ask your doctor about cialis for daily use and a 30-tablet free trial. if you wonder why republicans don't seem to remember how bad the government shutdowns worked out for them 17 years ago, consider this. only 37 house republicans were around for the shutdown back in the 1990s. that's just 16% of the republican caucus today. by contrast, nearly half of all house republicans got to capitol hill after george bush had left office. besides being far to the right of their predecessors, there's no institutional memory among this republican crowd today. and we'll be right back.

your website says that quote, the affordable care act has been deemed unconstitutional for its mandates requiring individuals to purchase health insurance. now, that's actually the opposite of the truth. the supreme court upheld the mandate as a tax that does fall within congress' place to collect taxes. how do you describe that? >> it must be an error on my website. >> that was republican congressman tim huelskamp admitting on msnbc that his website had it wrong when it called the affordable care act unconstitutional. everyone knows the supreme court ruled last june that the health care law is, in fact, constitutional. president obama's signature achievement, the affordable care act, has been under assault by the right wing ever since it was first drafted back in 2009. now it's the law of the land. it continues to be the subject of attacks from republicans who have manufactured myths about it in the hopes of killing it. joining me now is dr. ezekiel emanuel and joan walsh.

tell me if i'm right or wrong, zeke is this plan to delay the bill or the individual mandate a flesh wound or a shot to kill the bill, the act? >> chris, you've been around politics, you know as well as i do that any time anyone says we should delay it or spend time talking about it, it's an attempt to kill it. lyndon johnson knew very, very well that the moment you get something on a committee, you push it forward. the moment it gets passed, you push it forward. delay allows the opponents to rally around and try to get -- boost their voice and try to kill something. so you're absolutely right. you're calling it exactly as it is. this call for delay is an attempt to defeat. >> and joan, before lbj was our machiavellian hero, the guy was

a opportunist out there. but can he kill it because people who like the old system don't like it? and the people who were new to benefit from it don't have any confidence in it yet? that is the perfect time to kill it. >> right. >> guys like cruz himself is out there killing it because he must have read the prints. that is the purpose time to kill it. and so guys like cruz himself is out there killing it because he of us would have been celebrating. i looked at the health exchanges, new york state of health. one of the big myths is this it's a government takeover of health care. the diversity private insurance companies that are participating in these exchanges is really mind blowing for me. i favored a public option, i admit it. but they have managed to get an amazing amount of competition. the notion people are be given something -- more people are paying for it. because they've got more people in the pools, and they have the

individual mandate, which is crucial, the costs are coming down. and so that's what they're afraid of. they are afraid that people are going to try it, they're going to use it, they're going to like it. >> some of the myth they're perpetuating. myth one, premium s will increase, number two, the affordable care act includes death panels and number three, it's a job killer. zeke, take the last one, if you can. >> let's take at last one. there's talk that employers are going to take 40-hour-a-week employees and put them down to 32 hours a week. they looked at it and hours are down a little bit but it's because of the great recession, not because of obama care.

when i asked senator ron johnson, republican of wisconsin, to produce for me a list of ten companies where that happened, i've got nothing. the myth about big, expense of health insurance plans, for some people who had very skimpy plans who didn't cover things like preventive services with no co-pays and didn't allow certain diseases or maternity care, they may see an increase in premiums because they'll be getting more health care. many, many other people are not going to. i talked to a gardner out in los angeles about his situation and before obama care he was being offered insurance for his workers at about $500 per worker per month. with obama care it looks like they'll be able to afford it about $50 with the subsidies. so it depends who you are but most people who are uninsured or self-insured are probably going

to see a very good deal here. >> one of the people who thinks this is going to be a deal is ted cruz. here he is speaking in in january. he sounds like the biggest cheerleader for this program except he sees the opportunity to kill it. >> on january 1 the exchanges kick in and the subsidies kick in. once those kick in, it's going to prove almost impossible to undo obama care. the administration's plan is very simple, get everyone addicted to the sugar so that obama care remains a permanent feature of our society. >> well, you got to say there he made the best case for it. people are going to like it like they like the prescription drug deal that bush put in. they're not going to get rid of that. it's so amazing as recently as january, mr. cruz, the guy with the killer bullet, is willing to say this thing wants to live and people are going to like it. >> it is mazing. they will say anything, chris. this notion that people who are

poor already get medicare -- >> medicaid. >> medicaid, excuse me, and the elderly get medicare. we're talking about the working poor, the people who show up in the morning, work every day, take the early bus like jesse jackson always said. most people will pay something for it. but the notion that this is more government dependency is ridiculous. this let's people support their families, get out into the workforce and work. >> and it is the baby in the crib because the baby's vulnerable. >> the other thing the president has made clear is we cannot delay the individual mandate because it's critical to guaranteeing people with preexisting conditions like diabetes, cancer, if you believe in that principle, and the overwhelming number of people

do, you have to believe in that foundation. >> it comes from the heritage foundation. >> thank you, ezekiel and thank you joan walsh. we'll be back right after this. i take prilosec otc each morning for my frequent heartburn. because you can't beat zero heartburn. woo hoo! [ male announcer ] prilosec otc is the number one doctor recommended frequent heartburn medicine for 8 straight years. one pill each morning. 24 hours. zero heartburn.

let me finish tonight with this. tonight i'm speaking at cooper union here in new york where abraham lincoln spoke in 1860.

it's my honor too be addressing what i think is a topic lincoln himself would recognize and hold dear, the future of this last best hope for mankind. the whole premise of our self-representing democracy is our representative will come to agreement, either one party will hold a majority or if the government is divided, there would be a compromise. today they mock those who go along to get along or go along to get long, as if any accommodation to others' views is a sign of weakness. they divide the word "compromise" as if it were treason. obama won on obama care. now they're acting like the rich kid that loses, i'm taking my ball and going home. someone has to say we made our

point, we don't like the new health care law, we predicted it will fail but we respect the way the system works. the reason i wrote this new book that came out today "tip and the gipper" is to show our system can work. i was there right in the middle of it when it did. that's "hardball" for now. "all in with chris hayes" starts now. good evening. from new york i'm chris hayes. tonight 20 hours in a u.s. government shutdown, republicans are facing the unpleasant reality of the world outside the conservative bubble. >> rarely have i seen an instance where one party is so much more responsible, guilty, than the other. >> so the stakes have really been raised in this now. >> is there any grace saving way for republicans to back themselves out of the corner? >> it's a mie